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Did lot's daughter really tempt him ?

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i have a story from the bible it goes like Lot's nation getting destroyed and so he and his daughters hide in a cave where they seduce him into incest. Islamic ruling would obviously be to ignore the truth. What do christians and jews say?

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smiley

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/255

Allaah allowed Adam (peace be upon him) to marry his daughters to his sons for necessity.

http://www.aicp.org/islamic-information-ma...ruth-about-adam

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_Islam_...only_had_2_sons

Hawwa’ (Eve) gave birth to forty sets of twins. Each womb held a son and a daughter. Their children married and had children, who married and had children, and so on until the humans were spread in the different areas. Adam is the ancestor of all the human beings--without any exception. The lineage of all humans goes back to Adam and Hawwa’ (Eve), even Gog and Magog (Ya’juj and Ma’juj).

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Quran doesnt contain the names of 123,000 prophets either.

Most of the history from Adam to jewish prophets are ignored in Quran. In fact, Quran tells us to investigate and ask jews and christians about those affairs.

So please open up your mind and realize what exactly used to happen in those days.

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AlgerianShia wrote: that is disgusting fabrication by the christians

Well, Genesis was written at least 1,000 years before Christians existed, so I don't see how they could have "fabricated" the story of Lot and his daughters.

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(salam)

Quran doesnt contain the names of 123,000 prophets either.

Most of the history from Adam to jewish prophets are ignored in Quran. In fact, Quran tells us to investigate and ask jews and christians about those affairs.

So please open up your mind and realize what exactly used to happen in those days.

*124,000

The Qur'an talks of many prophets, many of them are named and some are not. There would be no need for 124,000 stories in the Qur'an, because God has chosen for it the perfect size and amount of examples in the prophets' lives that we can replicate in our lives. We see no need of adding perverted stories of incest, pornography, and rape in our Qur'an, revolving around Lot (as), David (as), and other Biblical personalities. These stories demean the prophets we are told to follow.

If by "open my eyes" you mean I should accept that Lot had sex with his daughters, I will tell you that I have no reason to believe these stories. They do not come from any of our authentic sources; and no, I do not consider the Bible to be a very authentic source. Nor do many of your scholars.

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Jewish traditions says that Lot's daughter thought that the world was destroyed (they saw fire rain down and obliterate their city, after all).

They wanted to repopulate the earth, and they thought the only man around was Lot. So, they had good intentions.

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Lot's daughters thought that the world was destroyed..... They wanted to repopulate the earth, and they thought the only man around was Lot. So, they had good intentions.

The end does not justify the means.

Committing a big sin to achieve something, even if that something might be good, is simply not acceptable. Their good intentions will not help them on the Day of Judgment.

The Judeo-Christian story is too naive to be true. As a crusader against homosexuality, it is hardly conceivable that Lot would allow himself to be tricked on the second night, after he had been duped once. Surely incest is a much bigger sin than homosexuality.

Islamic tradition rejects the Judeo-Christian story altogether. Lot was a pious man of God. We believe he simply could not have committed the horrifying act of incest.

AlgerianShia wrote: that is disgusting fabrication by the Christians. Well, Genesis was written at least 1,000 years before Christians existed, so I don't see how they could have "fabricated" the story of Lot and his daughters.

Quite true. I think he meant "Jews" and not "Christians".

I believe that Lot would have created a lot of enemies with his crusade against homosexuality. It is quite possible some of them took their revenge by sullying his reputation.

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(salam)

Jewish traditions says that Lot's daughter thought that the world was destroyed (they saw fire rain down and obliterate their city, after all).

They wanted to repopulate the earth, and they thought the only man around was Lot. So, they had good intentions.

I've heard from other Jewish sources that the daughters of Lot (as) did not want to fornicate with the pagans and unbelievers, so they had gone for Lot (as). There's nothing in the Scripture that says Lot's daughters wanted to repopulate the world.

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The end does not justify the means.

Committing a big sin to achieve something, even if that something might be good, is simply not acceptable. Their good intentions will not help them on the Day of Judgment.

The Judeo-Christian story is too naive to be true. As a crusader against homosexuality, it is hardly conceivable that Lot would allow himself to be tricked on the second night, after he had been duped once. Surely incest is a much bigger sin than homosexuality.

Islamic tradition rejects the Judeo-Christian story altogether. Lot was a pious man of God. We believe he simply could not have committed the horrifying act of incest.

A basic understanding of depravity should clear it all up. Lots daughters wanted to have sex with him, so they got him drunk, ever been drunk? Before conversion I've been wasted, I've been blacked out, I didn't remember a thing. Lots daughters were evil, evil, evil and they wanted to commit an evil act with their father. So they did.

Finally, who cares what Islamic tradition says. Who cares what the Christian tradition says in as much as its divorced from the time and Jewish oral traditions. Its irrelevant. Islamic tradition positing some novel idea is like Mormons inventing a tradition that said Lot did marry his daughters in order to have more wives. Its too far off, its too far from, and its mere conjecture.

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I think Maranatha's explanation is closest to the truth that happened at that time. It was normal for brothers and sisters to intermarry at that time too. If we observe the animal kingdom, nothing is taboo in their world.

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WE are humans though... not animals.

How can God send messengers onto earth who are not perfect? they have to be perfect to be examples for us.

now about the adam story there are 3 theories in Islam....

1. Incest

2. Houries were sent down to earth

3. there were types of humans that already lived on earth but were still different from the type adam/eve were

i think the first 2 are the most common theories in islam. the second one is the most true in my opinion but dont take my opinion for anything.

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i have a story from the bible it goes like Lot's nation getting destroyed and so he and his daughters hide in a cave where they seduce him into incest. Islamic ruling would obviously be to ignore the truth. What do christians and jews say?

I have attached a translation of the text of Bereishis (Genesis) Chapter 19. You can believe it or not; I really don't care. I'm just providing information on what the Torah says.

19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, while Lot was sitting at the city gate. Lot saw them and got up to greet them, bowing with his face to the ground.

19:2 He said, 'Please, my lords, turn aside to my house. Spend the night, bathe your feet, and then continue on your way early in the morning.'

'No,' they replied, 'we will spend the night in the square.'

19:3 [Lot] kept urging them until they finally turned aside to him and came to his house. He made a feast for them and baked matzah, and they ate.

19:4 They had not yet gone to bed when the townspeople, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house - young and old alike - all the people from every quarter.

19:5 They called out to Lot and said, 'Where are the strangers who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we may know them!'

19:6 Lot went out to them in front of the entrance, shutting the door behind him.

19:7 He said, 'My brothers, don't do such an evil thing!

19:8 I have two daughters who have never known a man. I will bring them out to you. Do as you please with them. But don't do anything to these men. After all, they have come under my roof!'

19:9 'Get out of the way!' they shouted.

They were saying, 'This one man came here as an immigrant, and now all of a sudden, he has set himself up as a judge! We'll give it to you worse than to them!'

They pushed against Lot very much, and tried to break down the door.

19:10 The strangers [inside] reached out and pulled Lot to them into the house, closing the door.

19:11 They struck the men who were standing at the entrance with blindness - young and old alike - and [the Sodomites] tried in vain to find the door.

19:12 The strangers said to Lot, 'Who else do you have here? A son-in-law? Your own sons? Your daughters? If you have anyone in the city, get them out of the area.

19:13 We are about to destroy this place, for [the people's] outcry is great before God. God has sent us to destroy it.'

19:14 Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were betrothed to his daughters. He said, 'Get moving! Get out of this area! God is about to destroy the city!' To his sons-in-law, it was all a big joke.

19:15 As dawn was breaking, the two angels hurried Lot. 'Get moving!' they said. 'Take your wife and two daughters who are here! You don't want to be swept away because of the city's sin!'

19:16 He hesitated. The strangers grabbed him, his wife, and his two daughters by the hand, leading them out, and left them on the outskirts of the city. God had shown pity on [Lot].

19:17 When [the angel] had led them out, he said, 'Run for your life! Do not look back! Do not stop anywhere in the valley! Flee to the hills, so that you will not be swept away!'

19:18 Lot said to them, 'O God, no!

19:19 I have found favor in your eyes, and you have been very kind in saving my life! But I cannot reach the hills to escape. The evil will overtake me and I will die!

19:20 Please, there is a city here close enough for refuge. It is insignificant! I will flee there - isn't it insignificant? - and I will survive.'

19:21 [The angel] replied to him, ' I will also give you special consideration in this matter. I will not overturn the city you mentioned.

19:22 But hurry! Run there! I can do nothing until you get there.'

The city was henceforth known as Tzoar (Insignificant).

19:23 The sun had risen by the time that Lot arrived in Tzoar.

19:24 God made sulphur and fire rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah - it came from God, out of the sky.

19:25 He overturned these cities along with the entire plain, [destroying] everyone who lived in the cities and [all] that was growing from the ground.

19:26 [Lot's] wife looked behind him, and she was turned into a pillar of salt.

19:27 Abraham woke up early in the morning, [hurrying back] to the place where he had stood before God.

19:28 He stared at Sodom and Gomorrah and the whole area of the plain, and all he saw was heavy smoke rising from the earth, like the smoke of a lime kiln.

19:29 When God had destroyed the cities of the plain, God had remembered Abraham. Thus, when He overturned the cities in which Lot lived, He allowed Lot to escape the upheaval.

19:30 Lot went up from Tzoar, and settled in the hills together with his two daughters, since he was afraid to remain in Tzoar. He lived in a cave alone with his two daughters.

19:31 The older girl said to the younger, 'Our father is growing old, and there is no other man left in the world to marry us in a normal manner.

19:32 Come, let's get our father drunk with wine, and sleep with him. We will then survive through children from our father.'

19:33 That night, they got their father drunk with wine, and the older girl went and slept with her father. He was not aware that she had lain down or gotten up.

19:34 The next day, the older girl said to the younger, 'Last night it was I who slept with my father. Tonight, let's get him drunk with wine again. You go sleep with him, and we will survive through children from our father.'

19:35 That night, they again made their father drunk with wine. The younger girl got up and she slept with him. He was not aware that she had lain down or gotten up.

19:36 Lot's two daughters became pregnant from their father.

19:37 The older girl had a son, and she named him Moab. He is the ancestor of [the nation] Moab that exists today.

19:38 The younger girl also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ami. He is the ancestor of the people of Ammon who exist today.

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You can believe it or not; I really don't care.

Fine.

I know that a lot of Christian scholars have registered their skepticism in regard to various sections of the Bible. I was wondering if Jewish scholars have any such skeptics as well. Is there any such belief that parts of the Jewish Bible may be suspect or could have been altered by unscrupulous hands ?

I was wondering if you could throw some light on this.

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Fine.

I know that a lot of Christian scholars have registered their skepticism in regard to various sections of the Bible. I was wondering if Jewish scholars have any such skeptics as well. Is there any such belief that parts of the Jewish Bible may be suspect or could have been altered by unscrupulous hands ?

I was wondering if you could throw some light on this.

Traditionally religious Jews believe that the Torah was dictated by G-d directly to Moses and preserved exactly as such to this day, except for some extremely technical details about spelling in 10 words where there are slight variants between Yemenite and non-Yemenite Torah scrolls and nobody can say one is right and the other is wrong. The other books of the Hebrew Bible (the Prophets and the Writings) were composed by humans under "ruach hakodesh" (a condition of divine inspiration) and I there are a handful of "tikkunei sofrim" - places where we know a scribe made an alteration.

Now if you are asking about what some irreligious Jews might say ... well, I guess if they aren't going to follow the Torah they have to come up with some kind of rationale for that, right? Anyway these days you can say anything if you a professor with tenure at a major university. :)

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Hi,

Quote:

I know that a lot of Christian scholars have registered their skepticism in regard to various sections of the Bible. --- End of quote.

I agree with Boston that these days there are those who may be professors of colleges, or from what is sometimes called, 'the school of higher learning,' who voice their own opinions about their skepticim of the Scriptures, but If we are going to believe God's word, then we believe it as it is written. Those who 'doubt' God's word as being 'inspired,' are entitled to their own opinion, but that is what it is, --- their own opinion.

This 'lot of Christian scholars' perhaps come from the same 'school of thought,' --- rather than a 'lot' saying the same thing from different sources, it can be a 'lot' expressing the same thought from 'one source,' --- one commentator.

While this topic was about Lot and his family, the Scripture says plainly that it happened.

That is one thing about the Scriptures, they tell it like it is. There are perhaps only two major characters in the OT Scriptures that are not reported to have had sin in their lives. They are Joseph and Daniel (there may be others), but they were not infallible.

There is also mention in the NT of inappropriate action among so-called believers as in 1 Corinthians 5:

1. It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!

2. And you are puffed up (arrogant), and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away (removed) from among you.

(The thought is that this must have referred to a step-mother, as the father's wife would have been the man's mother. However, it was Church discipline that those who violated moral laws should not remain part of the fellowship, unless they repented. --- To bring the 'world' into the Church allows the devil to have a foothold.)

We don't glorify these events, but the Bible tells it like it is. It is His word, and it is written for our benefit.

The story of Lot is mentioned some seven times in the Quran, which ususally mentions his wife turning into a pillar of salt, and the evil intent of the people around, and some places that Lot offered his daughters to them, as in: 11:78; 15:71; 27:54-55; 29:28-29; 54: 34-37; --- though it doesn't mention the other part of the story.

--- But the fact that most of the story is written verifies that it was part of Jewish history, does it not? --- Or else, what is in the Quran would have to have been 'fabricated' for the Quran, --- would it not?

Placid

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This 'lot of Christian scholars' perhaps come from the same 'school of thought,' --- rather than a 'lot' saying the same thing from different sources, it can be a 'lot' expressing the same thought from 'one source,' --- one commentator.

Possible but some of them were just s religious as anyone else until their researches led them to discrepancies. They are not necessarily irreligious as BostonJew has labelled them, just that they have discovered things for themselves, which do not met with the approval of the so-called religious guys.

As far as I am concerned, no one has been able to explain to me why the books of the Bible should be deemed "inspired books" . I have been pestering you for the last few days but you have kept deflecting my questions, leaving them unanswered. In my last post, I even asked you about the history of this concept. But clearly, you do not know the answer and have completely ignored it.

I am therefore left with no option but to assume that the concept of "inspired books" rests solely on faith and nothing else.

While this topic was about Lot and his family, the Scripture says plainly that it happened.

Islam catgorically rejects what your scriptures say about Lot's incest. According to Islam, Lot was a very pious man.

Or else, what is in the Quran would have to have been 'fabricated' for the Quran, --- would it not?

On the subject of Lot's incest, there are three possibilities.

Either the Quran is wrong or the Bible is wrong or perhaps both.

You, Placid, will continue to believe that the Bible is correct and the Quran is wrong whereas I will always believe that the Quran is right and the Bible is wrong.

We can keep discussing till the cows come home but nothing will change.

And since you cannot even explain how the books of the Bible came to be regarded as "inspired books" , it is perhaps best to end this discussion.

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And since you cannot even explain how the books of the Bible came to be regarded as "inspired books" , it is perhaps best to end this discussion.

There is something troublesome about your question. Maybe it's the simplicity of it all.

Surah 5:48:

'To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed:...

Assuming the "We" in this ayat pertains to Allah, it sounds to me that the Quran was sent to confirm past scriptures, and He guarded them "in safety" assumably means protected His inspired word...

Would God protect any ole story book? Why do you need Christians to answer what the Quran already does?

It also sounds to me that it is your job to judge how the Quran confirms the past scriptures. I feel it's a common falicy amung Muslims to think the Quran came to correct past scriptures.

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WE are humans though... not animals.

How can God send messengers onto earth who are not perfect? they have to be perfect to be examples for us.

now about the adam story there are 3 theories in Islam....

1. Incest

2. Houries were sent down to earth

3. there were types of humans that already lived on earth but were still different from the type adam/eve were

i think the first 2 are the most common theories in islam. the second one is the most true in my opinion but dont take my opinion for anything.

No. You're assuming what needs to be proven. Indeed, why is that God cannot communicate a message to men through fallible men? You're Islamic assumptions are being assumed.

Fine.

I know that a lot of Christian scholars have registered their skepticism in regard to various sections of the Bible. I was wondering if Jewish scholars have any such skeptics as well. Is there any such belief that parts of the Jewish Bible may be suspect or could have been altered by unscrupulous hands ?

I was wondering if you could throw some light on this.

What does this mean? 'Christan scholars' ? Perhaps you should allow Christians to define who Christians are. When one denies the definition of the Bible the definition of Christian cannot exist.

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Hi ILove,

Quote:

Either the Quran is wrong or the Bible is wrong or perhaps both.

You, Placid, will continue to believe that the Bible is correct and the Quran is wrong whereas I will always believe that the Quran is right and the Bible is wrong. --- End of quote.

--- Why are you assuming, or 'believing,' that either the Quran, or the Bible, has to be wrong?

I smile every time I read that --- 'I believe the Quran is wrong' --- when I have spent some years now showing to Muslims and Christians exactly what Son of Placid has said above in 5:48, as well as in 3:3 (and Scriptures which say the same in the Quran as in the Bible), --- that the Quran 'confirms' what was first written in the Bible.

It is kind of an interesting irony that 'we believe what the Quran says,' --- and --- 'you don't believe - that it says - what it says.'

When 10 translaters all say it the same way, I tend to believe that is what the original Arabic said, don't you?

(There is a lack of faith in God to say that each one must learn Arabic and translate from Arabic word and thought, themselves, into English, --- before they could believe it.) --- (It is like saying, 'I AM GOD. --- I WILL ONLY BELIEVE IT IF I DISCOVER IT MYSELF').

If you don't believe that Muhammad was 'inspired' as the Quran says, --- then you don't believe what God said.

Sorry, --- your argument is with God (Allah), not with us.

--- Or, I could say it like this, --- "I believe what the Quran says, --- why don't you?"

A question. --- How would God have any man write a book that was beyond his own understanding, if God didn't 'INSPIRE' him? --- That's what 'inspiration' is.

I agree that there is no more need for explanation on this subject.

Yes, we can simply call it faith, if you like, --- those who have it, believe. --- And I guess those who don't, --- don't.

I would like to add ---

--- Yesterday was Father's Day and Son of Placid sent me an Ecard.

It had graphics, Music, etc, but the message was as follows: ---

--- There was a time when I followed your EVERY STEP.

Then I turned into 'a rebel without a cause'

--- But all the while I was watching and LEARNING.

You know, I never thought I would say this, but today,

what makes me really proud --- is when someone points at us - and says,

--- like FATHER, --- like SON.

Happy Father's day, Dad.

(He didn't really turn into a 'rebel,' but he was turning into a man).

Placid

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Hi Placid ,

Did Lot offer his daughters to (zina ) adultery ?

Gen.19 : 8: Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Q 11:78] And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?

Edited by yonus

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This topic is a joke.

First of all, if youre Shia Muslim you believe that marriage cannot occur between brothers and sisters of the same family. Its prohibited even according to Islamic law, all Muslims believe in.

Second, if Sunnis believe that Adam's sons and daughters married because it was a 'necessity' then that still doesnt justify the story of Lot having sex with his daughters.

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Hi Yonus and Mo,

Yonus, --- Lot didn't offer his daughters for adultery. They were single and it was to appease the depraved men that came and asked for the 'strangers' who were visiting 'angels.'

Lot was no doubt very ashamed of the nature of the men, so he offered his daughters instead of having them molest the angels. --- However, the angels blinded the men at the door so neither the daughters or the angels were touched.

Mo, --- You are right, the whole idea of intermarriage in a family is wrong and spoken against in the laws of Moses. However, in the beginning, when the bodies were pure, this had to be the way the first families started. The chilren of Adam would have children, then they could marry their cousins, then the lines would move farther apart.

Christian or Islamic law was not in effect before their respective times.

The closest couple, I guess, to have children was Adam and Eve, was it not?

And Abraham's wife, Sarah, was his half sister. --- They had the same father, different mothers.

Therefore, when he said to the king, "She is my sister," he was telling a half truth, or 'using the term loosely.'

(It could have been the reason the last part of the story of Lot and his daughters was left out of the Quran, --- because the mention of it may have been considered an abomination. --- That part really wasn't important to the seven different times the story is mentioned in the Quran. --- However, it is part of Jewish history, --- because from them, came the Moabites and the Ammonites.)

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19:14 Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were betrothed to his daughters.
Lot didn't offer his daughters for adultery. They were single and it was to appease the depraved men that came and asked for the 'strangers' who were visiting 'angels.'

Hi Placid

Apparently they were not single according to the Genesis wherefrom BostonJew has quoted.

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Betrothed does not mean married. It means engaged, Promised to

True but the verse specifically refers to them as sons-in-law. If they were just engaged they could not possibly be his sons-in-law.

19:14 Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were betrothed to his daughters. He said, 'Get moving! Get out of this area! God is about to destroy the city!' To his sons-in-law, it was all a big joke.

And even if they were just engaged and not married, it is all the stranger that he should have offered his daughters to others while they were engaged.

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True but the verse specifically refers to them as sons-in-law. If they were just engaged they could not possibly be his sons-in-law.

And even if they were just engaged and not married, it is all the stranger that he should have offered his daughters to others while they were engaged.

Strange indeed. Aren't you glad we don't live in that era? Desparate times call for desparate measures.

I have a daughter engaged to be married, aka betrothed. Do I have a son-in-law yet?

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If "Muslims" here wish to attack and nit-pick everything in the Bible that they don't like perhaps you should not regret it when the same is done by Christians and Jews towards Islaamicate traditions?

Salaam

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If "Muslims" here wish to attack and nit-pick everything in the Bible that they don't like perhaps you should not regret it when the same is done by Christians and Jews towards Islaamicate traditions?

Salaam

Yes in tradition you may find something ,but in quran you will never find unholy verse like that in the bible .

41:42] Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.

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this is a bull shiit and clear deception against prophet LOT(peace be upon him)...where was his wife?

and do u really think Allah needs females to populate world? how come christians forget jesus was born without a father.Allah is almighty and all his prophets are free from sin.

inallah ala kulle shain kadir.

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