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mohalamine

Hollow cost for Dummies

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786-92-110

The HOLOCAUST for Dummies

1. In 1939, there were nearly 15,700,000 Jews in the world. (1) After the Second World War that number had risen to over 18,000,000 Jews. (2) What this means is that of the 15,000,000 original Jews on the planet, 6,000,000 were gassed, leaving only some 9,000,000-plus. Then, the world Jewish population rebounded and doubled to over 18,000,000 in less than nine years—an astronomical feat, which astounded biologists and baby doctors everywhere!

2. From the Beginning, there was the SIX MILLION, of which 4,000,000 were gassed at Auschwitz. Then, in 1990 it was discovered that only 1.5 million were gassed at Auschwitz, a difference of 2.5 million less. But somehow the magical SIX MILLION remained, even though no instant replacement was ever found. YHWH moves in mysterious ways!

3. At the same time, the director of the Auschwitz State Museum Dr. Franciszek Piper, announced that the so-called gas chamber there had been fabricated by the Soviets AFTER the war!

4. But there's more. The International Red Cross reported that less than 300,000 internees of all nationalities in the German camps died of all causes, including old age. (3) And of these, barely more than half were Jews. Most of these died in several typhoid epidemics caused by wartime conditions, which claimed many lives—including those of doctors, nurses and camp administrative personnel!

5. But even these deaths were too much for the German authorities. On December 8, 1942, Heinrich Himmler, chief commandant of all detention facilities, issued an order stating categorically: "The death rate in the camps must be reduced at all costs."

6. In all of German-occupied Europe there were 2.4 million Jews. After the war, 3.8 million Jews claimed "survivor" benefits from the German government. Tragically, the remaining 6 million were lost.

7. It was a miracle. According to The New York Times of Sunday, January 4, 1987, celebrated survivor Elie Wiesel recalled "the day the Soviets arrived at Auschwitz." Then, in a speech to the National Press Club in Washington D.C., reported by the Jewish Telegraph Agency on April 11, 1983, he had a different recollection. (4) He noted that he was "one of the survivors liberated at Dachau by the U.S. Army" on April 15, 1945—and thus became the only prisoner of war to hold the distinction of being liberated from two different camps in World War II!

8. Not to be outdone by The Weasel, famous "Nazi-hunter" Simon Wiesenthal died serenely at age 96, knowing that, according to BBC News, he had survived 12—count 'em!—Nazi "death camps."

9. In 1948 a story appeared about a hapless Jewish girl who was done in by the Nazis. It was written with a ballpoint pen, something that did not appear on the market until after the war. It was called— "The Diary of Anne Frank"!

10. So where did this SIX MILLION business start? For that we must go back to one Ilya Ehrenburg, (5) chief Soviet propagandist during the Second World War and later on to die in Israel, who coined the mystic number on Dec. 22, 1944—BEFORE tens of thousands of Jewish internees, given the choice of staying to be "liberated" by the Communists or going with their German captors, did not hesitate to choose the latter option!

1- The American Jewish Committee cites a figure of 15,688,259.

2- The Jewish-owned New York Times for Feb. 22, 1948, uses a figure of 18,700,000.

3- When the Red Cross interviewed thousands of freed camp inmates at the end of the war, asking whether they had witnessed alleged "gassings," the response was universally negative. According to IRC document #9925, June, 1946: "The detainees themselves have not spoken of them."

4- In his book Legend of Our Time, New York, 1982, The Weasel explained: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are—although they never occurred."

5-The monstrous lies of this Jewish psychopath succeeded in creating a climate of rabid, anti-German hate which led to the death of millions. Here is a typical example of the genocidal daily fare served up to Soviet troops, taken from an Oct. 1944 leaflet to the Red Army: "Kill! Nothing in Germany is guiltless, neither the living nor the yet unborn. Follow the words of Comrade Stalin and crush the fascist beast in its lair. Break the racial pride of the German woman. Take her as your legitimate booty. Kill, you brave soldiers of the glorious Soviet army!"

http://globalfire.tv/nj/06en/jews/holofordummies.htm

Elie Wiesel was finally freed from Buchenwald by OBAMA's UNCLE ???. what a family affair of lies and deceits!!!

Coutesy: CATSOO ( IMF)

Edited by mohalamine

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How stupid can a person get. You are going to deny the holocaust and call others dummies. ROFL lmao You are unbelievable. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who denies the holacaust. A person would have to have a third rate mind to believe the [Edited Out] you spew.

Edited by satyaban

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i dont think he denies it .... but the numbers of people killed is pretty astounding. I cannot believe both extremes on this matter ( one extreme that many many jews died and the other that says only a few thousand died and the rest.)

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How stupid can a person get. You are going to deny the holocaust and call others dummies. ROFL lmao You are unbelievable. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who denies the holacaust. A person would have to have a third rate mind to believe the [Edited Out] you spew.

"holocaust denial"

well if you did bother to read the post above, you would clearly know that he simply questions the number of jews killed

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i agree satty its pretty stupid. will you demonstrate for our fellow members how you and i arrived to the conclusion that its stupid by kindly illustrating your own calculations on the matter and refuting all the clear nonsense in the post please :):):)

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There is NO OTHER world leader other than the President of Iran, may God keep him safe from his enemies, who has the courage, the honesty, the dedication to TRUTH, to speak out on this topic.

Revisionist Victims of the New Inquistion

Jailing Opinions

A young father was torn from the arms of his wife and children by Federal agents and whisked off to Germany where he is now in a German prison, his crime?

Writing this book

Do you not all see why President Ahmadinejad is right? How many times have we heard the West lecturing the Ummah about "freedom of speech" Freedom to inquire, and yet what do they do? IMPRISON scholars because their findings expose the Big Lie for what it is.

Why do you think Israel received for FREE from Angela Merkel the nuclear attack submarines?

It is all based on the "Holocaust" and no one, not a single one, can TRUTHFULLY, say that President Ahmadinejad's brave stance is wrong. He is right, they are wrong.

The stigma, fear and taboo of this topic had effectively kept the truth in the dark for all these years but the President's giving voice to the prisoners of conscience, that has opened the door and it will not be shut. God willing.

THE DAILY TELEGRAPH London, May 9, 1992 UK

WAY OF THE WORLD by AUBERON WAUGH

Obviously, it does not influence the truth or falsehood of the original proposition by one jot that various governments are prepared to impose criminal sanctions against anyone who questions or denies it. But I cannot help asking myself what sort of truth it is that requires these sanctions.

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There is NO OTHER world leader other than the President of Iran, may God keep him safe from his enemies, who has the courage, the honesty, the dedication to TRUTH, to speak out on this topic.

Revisionist Victims of the New Inquistion

Jailing Opinions

A young father was torn from the arms of his wife and children by Federal agents and whisked off to Germany where he is now in a German prison, his crime?

Writing this book

Do you not all see why President Ahmadinejad is right? How many times have we heard the West lecturing the Ummah about "freedom of speech" Freedom to inquire, and yet what do they do? IMPRISON scholars because their findings expose the Big Lie for what it is.

Why do you think Israel received for FREE from Angela Merkel the nuclear attack submarines?

It is all based on the "Holocaust" and no one, not a single one, can TRUTHFULLY, say that President Ahmadinejad's brave stance is wrong. He is right, they are wrong.

The stigma, fear and taboo of this topic had effectively kept the truth in the dark for all these years but the President's giving voice to the prisoners of conscience, that has opened the door and it will not be shut. God willing.

THE DAILY TELEGRAPH London, May 9, 1992 UK

WAY OF THE WORLD by AUBERON WAUGH

:!!!: :!!!: :!!!:

What a total and complete load of complete bull[Edited Out]. Prisons of conscience ROFL.

The holocaust happened and is one of the darkest and most disgusting events in the human history. Period

[Edited]

Edited by inshaAllah
Member suspended for inappropriate comments

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9. In 1948 a story appeared about a hapless Jewish girl who was done in by the Nazis. It was written with a ballpoint pen, something that did not appear on the market until after the war. It was called— "The Diary of Anne Frank"!

This load of [Edited Out] is very insulting. I would appreciate it if you kept neo-nazi propaganda out of your posts.

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I fail to understand this obsession by some Muslims (thankfully they're only a few) with denying the holocaust. Even if one million innocent people were killed that's bad enough. Holocaust has nothing to do with Muslims and raking that issue only distracts from legitimate causes and grievances.

Anyway fyi...

----------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Victims and death toll

Victims Killed Source

Jews 5.9 million [180]

Soviet POWs 2–3 million [181]

Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million [182][183]

Romani 220,000–1,500,000 [184][185]

Disabled 200,000–250,000 [186]

Homosexuals 5,000–15,000 [187]

Jehovah's

Witnesses 2,500–5,000 [188]

The number of victims depends on which definition of "the Holocaust" is used. Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia write in The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust that the term is commonly defined[3] as the mass murder, and attempt to wipe out, European Jewry, which would bring the total number of victims to just under six million — around 78 percent of the 7.3 million Jews in occupied Europe at the time.[189]

Broader definitions include between 220,000 and 500,000 Romani, and the 200,000 disabled and mentally ill who were killed, because these groups were also targeted for eradication. A broader definition still includes political and religious dissenters, two to three million Soviet POWs, and 5,000 to 15,000 gay men, bringing the death toll to nine million. This rises to 11 million if the deaths of 1.8 to 2 million ethnic Poles are included. The broadest definition would include 6 million Soviet civilians, raising the death toll to 17 million.[3] R.J. Rummel estimates the total democide death toll of Nazi Germany to be 21 million.

Members of the Sonderkommando burn corpses in the fire pits at Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Photographer Alberto Errera, August 1944. Courtesy of the Auschwitz-Birkenau museum, Poland.[190]

Since 1945, the most commonly cited figure for the total number of Jews killed has been six million. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed. The figure most commonly used is the six million cited by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Early calculations range from 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Leschinsky. Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust estimate 5.59–5.86 million.[191] A study led by Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin suggests 5.29–6.2 million.[192][193] Yad Vashem writes that the main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar and postwar censuses and population estimates, and Nazi documentation on deportations and murders.[192] Its Central Database of Shoah Victims' Names currently holds close to 3 million names of Holocaust victims, all accessible online. Yad Vashem continues its project of collecting names of Jewish victims from historical documents and individual memories.[194]

Jews

Entrance to Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau, 1945

Hilberg's estimate of 5.1 million, in the third edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, includes over 800,000 who died from "ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 killed in open-air shootings; and up to 2,900,000 who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll of Jews in Poland as up to 3,000,000.[195] Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they typically include only those deaths for which records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment.[196]

British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his Atlas of the Holocaust, but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.[197] Lucy S. Dawidowicz used pre-war census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died (see table below) here).[198]

There were about 8 to 10 million Jews in the territories controlled directly or indirectly by the Nazis (the uncertainty arises from the lack of knowledge about how many Jews there were in the Soviet Union). The six million killed in the Holocaust thus represent 60 to 75 percent of these Jews. Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, over 90 percent were killed. The same proportion were killed in Latvia and Lithuania, but most of Estonia's Jews were evacuated in time. Of the 750,000 Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933, only about a quarter survived. Although many German Jews emigrated before 1939, the majority of these fled to Czechoslovakia, France or the Netherlands, from where they were later deported to their deaths. In Czechoslovakia, Greece, the Netherlands, and Yugoslavia, over 70 percent were killed. More than 50 percent were killed in Belgium, Hungary, and Romania. It is likely that a similar proportion were killed in Belarus and Ukraine, but these figures are less certain. Countries with notably lower proportions of deaths include Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy, and Norway.

Year Jews Killed[199]

1933–1940 under 100,000

1941 1,100,000

1942 2,700,000

1943 500,000

1944 600,000

1945 100,000

The number of people killed at the major extermination camps is estimated as: Auschwitz-Birkenau: 1.4 million;[113] Treblinka: 870,000;[128] Belzec: 600,000;[116] Majdanek: 360,000;[122] Chelmno: 320,000;[118] Sobibór: 250,000.[126] This gives a total of over 3.8 million; of these, 80–90% were estimated to be Jews. These seven camps thus accounted for half the total number of Jews killed in the entire Nazi Holocaust. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Poland died in these camps.[180]

In addition to those who died in the above extermination camps, at least half a million Jews died in other camps, including the major concentration camps in Germany. These were not extermination camps, but had large numbers of Jewish prisoners at various times, particularly in the last year of the war as the Nazis withdrew from Poland. About a million people died in these camps, and although the proportion of Jews is not known with certainty, it was estimated to be at least 50 percent. Another 800,000 to one million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories (an approximate figure, since the Einsatzgruppen killings were frequently undocumented).[200] Many more died through execution or of disease and malnutrition in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.

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I fail to understand this obsession by some Muslims (thankfully they're only a few) with denying the holocaust.

Muslims question holocaust because Pro-Israel gang uses the "innocent card" of "Jews suffered in Holocaust" and then justify their immigration to Palestine which resulted in mass murded and immigration of Palestenians. You can't kick people from their homes and then justify the act by saying that the new settlers were tortured as well. Firstly, Palestenians had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Secondly, what is the big deal if intellects or present day historians revise and question the historical references regarding the holocaust ? Why does it piss you off ? Surely, there is room to revise history....

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I fail to understand this obsession by some Muslims (thankfully they're only a few) with denying the holocaust. Even if one million innocent people were killed that's bad enough. Holocaust has nothing to do with Muslims and raking that issue only distracts from legitimate causes and grievances.

I fail to understand why people get arrested simply for questioning the number of jews killed in the holocaust. I can sense the insecurity somewhere!

Why is denying God, the one who has created us, not a crime, whilst denying a historic event, a crime?

I havent researched at all into the holocaust, or the number of jews killed, however, when I do hear that certain historians get arrested and perscecuted for questioning the event, it certainly raises doubts in my mind too...

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"9. In 1948 a story appeared about a hapless Jewish girl who was done in by the Nazis. It was written with a ballpoint pen, something that did not appear on the market until after the war. It was called— "The Diary of Anne Frank"!"

Let me get this straight. Some half wit claims "The Diary of Anne Frank" was written in ballpoint pen, also the manuscript was found in 1948. Isn't the discovery of the manuscript also before the invention of the ballpoint pen.

"There is NO OTHER world leader other than the President of Iran, may God keep him safe from his enemies, who has the courage, the honesty, the dedication to TRUTH, to speak out on this topic. "

Doesn't the fact that Ahmad is the only one who believes this tell you something. Have you ever heard the expression "It's not you it's the rest of the world" before?

"I fail to understand why people get arrested simply for questioning the number of jews killed in the holocaust. I can sense the insecurity somewhere!"

I certainly disagree with laws such as those but the insecurity you may sense is not of a hoax being found out or anything like it but there is the fear it could happen again.

I don't know what you know about the history of Eastern Eorupean and Nazi anti- semitism but the Nazis institutionalized it in increments. Where Jews could go to school, what jobs were denied Jews right on down the line to living in ghettos and loosing their property to concentration camps did not happen overnight.

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I certainly disagree with laws such as those but the insecurity you may sense is not of a hoax being found out or anything like it but there is the fear it could happen again.

soo... you are insecure that if research into the holocaust is allowed, than there will be a greater chance of a future genocide against them?

cummon!! i hope you dont really believe that!

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"2. From the Beginning, there was the SIX MILLION, of which 4,000,000 were gassed at Auschwitz. Then, in 1990 it was discovered that only 1.5 million were gassed at Auschwitz, a difference of 2.5 million less. But somehow the magical SIX MILLION remained, even though no instant replacement was ever found. YHWH moves in mysterious ways!"

this one is definetely correct, i have the pictures of the old auschwits greeting plaque and the new one on my comp, the auschwits figure has been revised, but the holocaust total figure of 6 million has never been revised, so the numbers ARE being lied about.

it is not a "muslim obsession" its called historical enquiry, something we should all be interested in

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soo... you are insecure that if research into the holocaust is allowed, than there will be a greater chance of a future genocide against them?

cummon!! i hope you dont really believe that!

That is not what I said and it wasn't hard to understand.

This thread is a fool's errand.

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Assalamallikum,

Years ago while researching "deputy fuerher" Rudolph Hess, I came accross the US Army report on Shoah --Holocast.

It gave the murder figures in the death camps as:

6 1/2 million Gypsies

5 1/2 million Jews

2 million political prisoners

The other half a million Jews were murdered "in the field" (to use Nazi rhetoric). Shot, burned alived in the synagoges, and so forth.

Elsewhere:

This does not include Soviet troops captured, "undesriables", eugenic "necessity", and the like who were murdered.

I understand "why" Ahmadinejad wanted to irritate the West, but his buying into "Holocast Denial" mythology was NOT a good choice for either international or domestic politics.

We had at least one man in our hometown that had been part of a camp liberation, but I don't remember anything else about what he said as I was little.

PLUS:

Ayatollah Khomenei refers to this in his 1941 speech "Warning to the Nation"

And:

One of my translations of the Qur'an by A. Yusuf Ali with the L'Envoi (closing note) dated 14 November 1937 has as Footnote Number 1O96 wrote: "The Jews in their ghettos in Europe suffered much persecution. Nor are they out of the wood yet. If the Pogroms of the Slavs against them have ceased, their fate in Nazi Germany is the talk of the Word" (underline added -ed.)

There were 9 million Jews in Europe before the Nazis.

Now, tomorrow 12 June 2009 in Anne Frank's "8Oth" birthday. And a cousin of hers and a surviving childhood friend have been interviewed on DeutscheWelle. Now they say that Miss Frank had significant prose-writing talent, which I find basically believable because I knew a girl of the same age that was winning regional poetry contests at the same age. But, I also read only the first part of the diary because like many others, I do not think any 12 -13 year old could write on that level of prose --especially with the difficulties of translation. I knew a couple of jewesses who expressed the same reservations. NEVERTHELESS, she was still a young girl who was murdered for no other reason than for her belief in the God of Noah(swt) alone.

Takbir

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(salam)

Although the number of casualties is debatable and likely exaggerated, the Holocaust is a historical fact. Jews were persecuted and massacred under the Nazi rule. But we didn't do it. There is no need for Muslims to be talking about the holocaust, when it is not an issue related to the actions of Muslims. Muslims also shouldn't be paying the price of the 2nd world war.

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(salam)

Although the number of casualties is debatable and likely exaggerated, the Holocaust is a historical fact. Jews were persecuted and massacred under the Nazi rule. But we didn't do it. There is no need for Muslims to be talking about the holocaust, when it is not an issue related to the actions of Muslims. Muslims also shouldn't be paying the price of the 2nd world war.

One thing the "Shoah Deniers" omit is that the Nazis kept meticulous records about everyone in the death camps.

As an observation: Look at the thousands of pictures of the victums you can find at the museums and memorials. Then ask yourself, "if any of this was made-up, then why hasn't at least one of these people caome forward and say it is a hoax?"

As Elle Wiesel (Nobel Lauriate) similarly says, so said my wife this morning: everybody remembers Shoah, but not Cambodia(Khmer Rouge) or Gaza last year --does anyone remember.

To which you can add: Biafra, Bosnia, ...Stalin's purges...Mao's purges...UN sanctions on Iraq (depending on source: 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 million children during the 1990s)...

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I have a few comments to make about the Holocaust (and Judaism in general). These are my opinions, but I nevertheless remain open to learning more. These points, I should say, are a culmination of the reading that I have done regarding the Holocaust and Judaism in Europe.

1) The Holocaust did occur, and it caused the death of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and other ethnic groups. However, I do not believe the actual figures have been adjusted in light of the reduced number of deaths at Auschwitz.

2) The Holocaust, however treacherous it was, gave European Jews legitimacy in declaring statehood in Palestine, something that might not have happened without the events of the 30s and 40s.

3) It is true that there has been a lot of censorship regarding the Holocaust. It is one of the only historical events that has been "closed off" for discussion when the discussion seems to re-assert Jewish demographics or uncover other facts that seem to deflate the number of people killed during the attempted genocide.

4) There have been many fluctuations in the death toll at Auschwitz, so much so that the Jewish death toll appears to be significantly less than 6 million.

5) We are not allowed to discuss these findings because of media and legal censorship, which is closing the door on critical research. However, denying that it happened all-together is insulting and historically incorrect.

6) There have been many other genocidal events over the past few centuries, but none are given more primacy (or even talked about, for that matter) more than the Jewish Holocaust of the 1930s and 40s.

7) The Holocaust of the 1930s and 40s is an extension of European anti-semitism; it is the culmination of a Christian European mentality that has ravaged the Jewish people for well over a millennium. This is the same anti-semitism that banished Jews from Spain and Hungary, as well as many other parts of Europe. The same anti-semitism that established the first recorded "ghettos" in Italy, which isolated Jews from the rest of the community. This is the same anti-semitism that isolated Jewish populations all over Europe, often leading to disease. This is the same anti-semitism that didn't allow Jews to own property, which once again reestablished Jewish usury (which once again fueled the hate among European gentiles). This is the anti-semitism that prompted the First Crusaders to burn Jews alive in Palestine. This is also the anti-semitism that systematically disadvantaged Jews in France, often leading to criminal prosecutions and charges of treason. And of course, this is the same anti-semitism that gave birth to Nazi ideology, leading to the desecration and bodily destruction of countless Jews.

8) It is European anti-semitism that gave birth (and legitimacy) to "Israel," a usurper state that has systemically destroyed the Middle East.

At the end of the day, no one should be surprised that Muslims are questioning Jewish history in light of the creation of "Israel." However, I believe Muslims need to be more informed. We don't need the Western, neo-Nazi "Holohoax" mentality.

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(salam)

I don't think one could say the Holocaust is what legitimized the creation of Israel - the will to create a Jewish state in the Middle East predates the Holocaust by a few decades, and the regime was in the process of being established as World War II was happening (Haganah, Stern group, etc.) Using the Holocaust as a pretext to Israel's creation was a reason used later to legitimize its existence - I suggest you read the book "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein.

Either way, Holocaust denial is not the way to go for Muslims. It is better to condemn Israeli war crimes against Muslims than to involve ourselves in massacres that we did not take part in or approve of.

Edited by Qa'im

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Why are people put in chains and in prisons and beaten for writings, research studies?

Why are books banned?

What aspect of historical inquiry is "evil," where is it written that science and the scientific method may not be utilized to determine the truth of a subject?

Israel gets away with its using Gaza as a TOXIC WASTE DUMP, murdering children, possessing horrific Weapons of Mass Destruction, nuclear missiles, patrolling the seas with attack submarines armed with nuclear warheads targeted for Europe, USA, as well as Iran and siphons off the taxpayers monies from America and Germany.

Every single UN Resolution condemning the crimes against humanity committed by Israel are vetoed by the USA.

WHY DO THEY GET AWAY WITH THEIR CRIMES? The Holocaust story.

That is why these scholars were imprisoned. Ernst Zundel an elderly, very ill man, sits in a fortress prison with strict discipline.

Muslims address this issue with good reason. Not the least of which is we give succor to the oppressed.

This young man sits in prison in Germany for writing about his scientific study of Auschwitz Germar Rudolf

This research by a Professor at Northwestern University has all the citations one could want.

Arthur R. Butz

Freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry is under attack all over the West, the USA may well follow in Germany's footsteps and silencing all critics of Zionists.

Read those while you can.

This is, in theory, still a free country, but our politically correct, censorious times are such that many of us tremble to give vent to perfectly acceptable views for fear of condemnation. Freedom of speech is thereby imperilled, big questions go undebated, and great lies become accepted, unequivocally as great truths.

Simon Heffer, Daily Mail, June 7th 2000

Be wary of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. — Pravin Lal
Edited by Fool4God

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I have a few comments to make about the Holocaust (and Judaism in general). These are my opinions, but I nevertheless remain open to learning more. These points, I should say, are a culmination of the reading that I have done regarding the Holocaust and Judaism in Europe.

1) The Holocaust did occur, and it caused the death of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and other ethnic groups. However, I do not believe the actual figures have been adjusted in light of the reduced number of deaths at Auschwitz.

2) The Holocaust, however treacherous it was, gave European Jews legitimacy in declaring statehood in Palestine, something that might not have happened without the events of the 30s and 40s.

3) It is true that there has been a lot of censorship regarding the Holocaust. It is one of the only historical events that has been "closed off" for discussion when the discussion seems to re-assert Jewish demographics or uncover other facts that seem to deflate the number of people killed during the attempted genocide.

4) There have been many fluctuations in the death toll at Auschwitz, so much so that the Jewish death toll appears to be significantly less than 6 million.

5) We are not allowed to discuss these findings because of media and legal censorship, which is closing the door on critical research. However, denying that it happened all-together is insulting and historically incorrect.

6) There have been many other genocidal events over the past few centuries, but none are given more primacy (or even talked about, for that matter) more than the Jewish Holocaust of the 1930s and 40s.

7) The Holocaust of the 1930s and 40s is an extension of European anti-semitism; it is the culmination of a Christian European mentality that has ravaged the Jewish people for well over a millennium. This is the same anti-semitism that banished Jews from Spain and Hungary, as well as many other parts of Europe. The same anti-semitism that established the first recorded "ghettos" in Italy, which isolated Jews from the rest of the community. This is the same anti-semitism that isolated Jewish populations all over Europe, often leading to disease. This is the same anti-semitism that didn't allow Jews to own property, which once again reestablished Jewish usury (which once again fueled the hate among European gentiles). This is the anti-semitism that prompted the First Crusaders to burn Jews alive in Palestine. This is also the anti-semitism that systematically disadvantaged Jews in France, often leading to criminal prosecutions and charges of treason. And of course, this is the same anti-semitism that gave birth to Nazi ideology, leading to the desecration and bodily destruction of countless Jews.

8) It is European anti-semitism that gave birth (and legitimacy) to "Israel," a usurper state that has systemically destroyed the Middle East.

At the end of the day, no one should be surprised that Muslims are questioning Jewish history in light of the creation of "Israel." However, I believe Muslims need to be more informed. We don't need the Western, neo-Nazi "Holohoax" mentality.

Well said.

Seconded.

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Secondly, what is the big deal if intellects or present day historians revise and question the historical references regarding the holocaust ? Why does it piss you off ? Surely, there is room to revise history....

(salam)

My post is not directed at you, so please do not take an offense. I have two points to make.

It is stupid for Muslims to side with Neo-Nazi and support their beliefs that Holocaust never happened or it was not as bad as it was. There was a genocide of the Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Secondly, Why would anyone want to "bicker" about the exact number of Jews who was killed? What is the point?

I wouldn't be surprised if they were clerical errors. The Jews were slaughtered like farm animals. People didn't use excel spreadsheets to keep an accurate count of a number of Jews who were gassed!

Even if less than 6 millions died, it is still a big number of innocents who died. Died because of their faith.

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what do muslims have to gain by trying to disprove the holocaust? I don't understand

do you thnk the palestinians are suddenly going to win if the number of victims is cut in half?

millions and milions of people were killed in ww2.

Do you doubt alot of people were killed by bombing nagasaki? anyone want to challenge those "offical numbers"?

what is the motivation here?

Edited by Lester

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Secondly, Why would anyone want to "bicker" about the exact number of Jews who was killed? What is the point?

What is the point ? Allow me to explain the point of researching how many jews died in that genocide. From the date Israel appeared on the map, x times hundreds of thousands of palestenians have suffered and died. Yet the "official" number of jews suffered/massaccared by Europeans, in 6/7 years of WW2, is apparantly more than the number of palestenians who have suffered and been massacred (unreportedly) for the last 6-7 decades by the Israeli institution.

Are we really that stupid ? Is the on-going genocide of Palestenian people not a good enough reason for the world's intellects to revise history in it's entirety ? On one hand, the pro-Israel gang presents the genocide of jews as another karbala and justifies their illegal migration to palestine which basically resulted in suffering and murder of so many palestenians. But in response, if Muslims try to research and compare that genocide of WW2 with the 6 decades of genocide by the Israeli institution, it comes an offense and a crime ?

It is stupid for Muslims to side with Neo-Nazi and support their beliefs that Holocaust never happened or it was not as bad as it was. There was a genocide of the Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

To side with another oppressor (Nazis) is indeed stupid. But the primary issue is not just about suffering of a group of people by hitler's regime. If we believe that the story is just about hitler's oppression on jews, obviously we are not on the same page.

As independant intellects, we can't even research the claims made by people who are now supporting Israeli regime (the same regime which commits crime under international law but gets away because US vetos every other UN resolution).

Salams

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Secondly, Why would anyone want to "bicker" about the exact number of Jews who was killed? What is the point?

Numbers matter and numbers matter absolutely for mathematics is the language of nature. Its the basis from where we form our opinions. Emotions, propaganda or mere ignorance could be used to inflate or deflate numbers and draw a picture completely different and far from reality from the actual event(s). For example people would feel differently and 'd have a different perception of US, War on Terror, or Liberal Democracy based on causality figures of Gulf War II- whether 10 thousand people perished or was it 1 million or 5 million? Whether 6000, or 60 000, or 6 Million Jews were killed in WWII besides some other 80 million others also shapes our perception of today's politics. A piece of land where supposedly 800 000 victims are buried would have different chemistry (for example just the human fat would change the soil composition) than another piece of land with say 80 victims. According to the so called official figures some 870 000 victims were buried in Treblinka and yet this claim could not be substantiated by examining the soil samples from the area where the supposed mass grave was. Say it was legal to study Holocaust and say that such findings would be made public then the term anti-semite would take on a completely different meaning and AIPAC would play a different role and......

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This has got to be one of the least intelligent discussions started anywhere by anyone. How many of you Holocaust deniers have bothered to travel through Europe where people don't deny the brutal history of their own countries. Think of the day when Ayatollahs say "we made a mistake. it was bad of us to let non-government actors like the Revolutionary Guard and various violent militias kills our civilians for standing up for their rights. It was wrong of us to take Us embassy employees hostage. It was wrong of us to write about whether or not is is ok to have sex with chickens." If yo go back further in time you could add "It was wrong of us to kill people of other religions. Sikhs, Hindus etc." When will Muslims stand up for their own mistakes.

Millions of Jews died. Go see the concentration camps. Get away from your computers and propaganda machines.

You think any Iranian leader could admit to having made a mistake? Germans, Czech, Polish have "manned up" and atoned admitted to the sins of their forefathers.

Obviously you Holocaust deniers are products of societies and educational systems that control your access to information and do not breed critical thinking. Be kind to the world. Be quiet. You are not making this place better for anyone. There are a billion muslims and less than 20 million Jews (I think). Why do you spend so much energy on doubting them? Why not make Muslims better??

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This has got to be one of the least intelligent discussions started anywhere by anyone. How many of you Holocaust deniers have bothered to travel through Europe where people don't deny the brutal history of their own countries. Think of the day when Ayatollahs say "we made a mistake. it was bad of us to let non-government actors like the Revolutionary Guard and various violent militias kills our civilians for standing up for their rights. It was wrong of us to take Us embassy employees hostage. It was wrong of us to write about whether or not is is ok to have sex with chickens." If yo go back further in time you could add "It was wrong of us to kill people of other religions. Sikhs, Hindus etc." When will Muslims stand up for their own mistakes.

Millions of Jews died. Go see the concentration camps. Get away from your computers and propaganda machines.

You think any Iranian leader could admit to having made a mistake? Germans, Czech, Polish have "manned up" and atoned admitted to the sins of their forefathers.

Obviously you Holocaust deniers are products of societies and educational systems that control your access to information and do not breed critical thinking. Be kind to the world. Be quiet. You are not making this place better for anyone. There are a billion muslims and less than 20 million Jews (I think). Why do you spend so much energy on doubting them? Why not make Muslims better??

Wow...!

Post of the year, if not the decade!

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This has got to be one of the least intelligent discussions started anywhere by anyone. How many of you Holocaust deniers have bothered to travel through Europe where people don't deny the brutal history of their own countries. Think of the day when Ayatollahs say "we made a mistake. it was bad of us to let non-government actors like the Revolutionary Guard and various violent militias kills our civilians for standing up for their rights. It was wrong of us to take Us embassy employees hostage. It was wrong of us to write about whether or not is is ok to have sex with chickens." If yo go back further in time you could add "It was wrong of us to kill people of other religions. Sikhs, Hindus etc." When will Muslims stand up for their own mistakes.

Millions of Jews died. Go see the concentration camps. Get away from your computers and propaganda machines.

You think any Iranian leader could admit to having made a mistake? Germans, Czech, Polish have "manned up" and atoned admitted to the sins of their forefathers.

Obviously you Holocaust deniers are products of societies and educational systems that control your access to information and do not breed critical thinking. Be kind to the world. Be quiet. You are not making this place better for anyone. There are a billion muslims and less than 20 million Jews (I think). Why do you spend so much energy on doubting them? Why not make Muslims better??

Yawn

What a pathetic waste of time. Factually impotent and preys on emotions. It lacks the hard evidence to convince the skeptic. With this kind of a language, Holocaust Revisionism will survive and get stronger.

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the holocaust denial is more just a general expression of "I'm from the middle east or wish i was" than any legitamate factual greivence. It's like waving your teams flag

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the holocaust denial is more just a general expression of "I'm from the middle east or wish i was" than any legitamate factual greivence. It's like waving your teams flag

Bingo

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the holocaust denial is more just a general expression of "I'm from the middle east or wish i was" than any legitamate factual greivence. It's like waving your teams flag

That wouldnt explain the reason why the leading scholars in the revisionist drive are western and are not known to have championed the Islamic cause. To believe in the Holocaust in the 21st century is to say that you have 2 brain cells remaining. Holocaost is a factually impotent industry.

Edited by mandate

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That wouldnt explain the reason why the leading scholars in the revisionist drive are western and are not known to have championed the Islamic cause. To believe in the Holocaust in the 21st century is to say that you have 2 brain cells remaining. Holocaost is a factually impotent industry.

Yeah the likes of David Irving et al, Hitler lovers, neo-Nazi shyt. Pretty much explains why. Muslims are not behind though, today and even in the past. The love relationship that the then mufti of Jerusalem had with Hitler isn't quite well unknown.

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