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In the Name of God بسم الله

Q: for Ahmadis/Qadiyani/Lahori

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(bismillah)

I heard from somewhere; that especially Ahmadies belong to Qadiyani sect are not allowed to get involve in any kind of discussion and/or debate on internet through any means. However; if this is not the case or anybody want to give answers to these questions. I might have some more questions but so far only 2 are follows. please stay on topic, and dont give link to any website as reference.

These questions are not to hurt anybody's feelings.

Q: What are the main kinds of Kafir? What is the status of a Kafir in Islamic Shariah in regards to taharat. Is he tahir or najis?

Q: What are the views of Jamat e Ahamdiah about other muslim sects (like shia and sunni etc) as deniers of the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

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(bismillah)

I heard from somewhere; that especially Ahmadies belong to Qadiyani sect are not allowed to get involve in any kind of discussion and/or debate on internet through any means. However; if this is not the case or anybody want to give answers to these questions. I might have some more questions but so far only 2 are follows. please stay on topic, and dont give link to any website as reference.

These questions are not to hurt anybody's feelings.

Q: What are the main kinds of Kafir? What is the status of a Kafir in Islamic Shariah in regards to taharat. Is he tahir or najis?

Q: What are the views of Jamat e Ahamdiah about other muslim sects (like shia and sunni etc) as deniers of the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

Assalam-o-Alaikum

(1)From Quran & Hadees we know that there are two kinds of Kufr: one that denies God and/or His Prophet; and the other who profess faith in them but acts against any fundamental Islamic commandment. For example, one who willfully forsakes prayer; does not perform nikah; mix bad things with good things; murders a Muslim; and the one who is a Muslim himself but calls another Muslim as 'kafir'.

(2) Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at considers non-Ahmadi Muslims of second category of kafir. WE call them, as I just wrote, non-Ahmadi Muslims. As the founder of Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at claimed to be the Promised Messiah as prophesied by the Holy Prophet MUhammad (sa), denying him means denying the commandment of the Holy Prophet (sa).

Wassalam

Ansar

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(1)From Quran & Hadees we know that there are two kinds of Kufr: one that denies God and/or His Prophet; and the other who profess faith in them but acts against any fundamental Islamic commandment. For example, one who willfully forsakes prayer; does not perform nikah; mix bad things with good things; murders a Muslim; and the one who is a Muslim himself but calls another Muslim as 'kafir'.

(2) Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at considers non-Ahmadi Muslims of second category of kafir. WE call them, as I just wrote, non-Ahmadi Muslims. As the founder of Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at claimed to be the Promised Messiah as prophesied by the Holy Prophet MUhammad (sa), denying him means denying the commandment of the Holy Prophet (sa).

Thanks for the short answer and for the effort in making a new account on shiachat to give the answer.

I take the second category of kafir differently. "The one who believe in God and his Prophet; but SAY "that i dont believe in 5 prayers, and/or Fasting of Ramadan and/or Hajj" etc etc. On the other hand the one who dont perform and/or cant perform these prayers if these are obligatory on him, he will be considered as muslim (but sinner) not Kafir. All muslim rules and laws will be applied on him.

Anyways - one or maybe 2 more questions arise from the above two points.

(3) As you wrote: Ahmadiyya movement considers other muslims (shia/sunni) kafir because they deny a person who claim that he is Messiah as per prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He think that prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are for him. Denial of a true Prophet or a promised one makes a person Kafir. Vice versa the same concept. Accepting a False Prophet as Prophet makes a person kafir too. Based on the same concept Muslim think that the Messiah (about which Ahmadiyya believe that he is true), is the false and the prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are not for this person. Therefore those people who believe in him as Prophet/Messiah are kafir.

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Thanks for the short answer and for the effort in making a new account on shiachat to give the answer.

I take the second category of kafir differently. "The one who believe in God and his Prophet; but SAY "that i dont believe in 5 prayers, and/or Fasting of Ramadan and/or Hajj" etc etc. On the other hand the one who dont perform and/or cant perform these prayers if these are obligatory on him, he will be considered as muslim (but sinner) not Kafir. All muslim rules and laws will be applied on him.

Anyways - one or maybe 2 more questions arise from the above two points.

(3) As you wrote: Ahmadiyya movement considers other muslims (shia/sunni) kafir because they deny a person who claim that he is Messiah as per prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He think that prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are for him. Denial of a true Prophet or a promised one makes a person Kafir. Vice versa the same concept. Accepting a False Prophet as Prophet makes a person kafir too. Based on the same concept Muslim think that the Messiah (about which Ahmadiyya believe that he is true), is the false and the prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are not for this person. Therefore those people who believe in him as Prophet/Messiah are kafir.

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Assalam-o-Alaikum

The Holy Quran is a standard between us. Nowhere in the Holy Quran it is written that the one who believes in a fake prophet as a true prophet is 'kafir'. Everywhere, those who claim to be true prophets but were actually not and those who reject a true prophet have been declared kafir. If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (Peace be upon him) was not a true prophet, then he must be among those who made a false claim. However, Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at cannot be declared 'kafir' on the basis of accepting a false prophet as a true prophet. We can be mistaken but not kafir. If you have a proof from the Holy Quran for what you asserted, please provide. Jazak-Allah

Wassalam

Ansar

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Assalam-o-Alaikum

The Holy Quran is a standard between us. Nowhere in the Holy Quran it is written that the one who believes in a fake prophet as a true prophet is 'kafir'. Everywhere, those who claim to be true prophets but were actually not and those who reject a true prophet have been declared kafir. If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (Peace be upon him) was not a true prophet, then he must be among those who made a false claim. However, Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at cannot be declared 'kafir' on the basis of accepting a false prophet as a true prophet. We can be mistaken but not kafir. If you have a proof from the Holy Quran for what you asserted, please provide. Jazak-Allah

Wassalam

Ansar

Quran 33:40 states that prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is the khatamul anbiya. That being stated how can we have more prophets after prophet Mohammed (pbuh)? Other than that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad can't be the messiah because obviously he does not meet the requirements and the signs of the Mehdi.

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Quran 33:40 states that prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is the khatamul anbiya. That being stated how can we have more prophets after prophet Mohammed (pbuh)? Other than that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad can't be the messiah because obviously he does not meet the requirements and the signs of the Mehdi.

(bismillah)

"Muhammad is not the father of

any of your men, but he is the

Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the

prophets. And Allah is ever Knower of

all things" Surah Al Ahzab 33.40

The word khatam means "a seal", the word khatim means "the last part or portion of a thing," The word used in this verse is khatam NOT khatim!

Usage of the word KHATAM in Arabic.

KHATAM-AL-AUSIYA (seal of advisers) used for Hazrat Ali (as) Minar Al Hudaa p. 106.

KHATAM-AL-AULIYA (seal of saints) used for Hazrat Ali (as) Tafsir Safi chapter Al Ahzab.

KHATAM-USH-SHU’ARAA (seal of poets) used for poet Abu Tamam (Wafiyatul A’yan, vol.1, p.123, Cairo).

KHATAM-AL-AULIYA (seal of saints) used for Imam Shafi (Al Tuhfatus Sunniyya p.45).

KHATAM-AL-KARAAM (seal of remedies) used for camphor (Sharah Deewanul Mutanabbee p.304).

KHATAM-ATUL-MUJAHIDEEN (seal of crusaders) used for AlSayyad Ahmad Sanosi (Akhbar AlJami’atul Islamiyyah, Palestine, 27 Muharram, 1352 AH).

KHATAM-ATUL-ULAMAA-ALMUHAQQIQEEN (seal of research scholars) used for Ahmad Bin Idrees (Al’Aqadun Nafees).

KHATAM-ATUL-MUHAQQIQEEN (seal of researchers) used for Imam Siyotee (Title page of I’afseerul Taqaan).

KHATAM-AL-MUHADDITHEEN (seal of narraters) used for Imam Siyotee (Hadiyyatul Shee’ah p. 210).

KHATAM-ATUL-FUQAHAA (seal of jurists) used for Al Shaikh Najeet (Akhbaar Siraatal Mustaqeem Yafaa, 27 Rajab, 1354 AH).

KHATAM-AL-MUFASSIREEN (seal of commentators or exegetes) used for Shaikh Rasheed Raza (Al Jaami’atul Islamia, 9 Jamadiy thaani, 1354 AH).

KHATAM-AL-HUKKAAM (seal of rulers) used for kings (Hajjatul Islam, p.35).

KHATAM-AL-MAKHLOOQAAT AL-JISMAANIYYAH (seal of bodily creatures) used for human beings (Tafseer Kabeer, vol.2, p.22, published in Egypt).

SCHOLARS ABOUT TWO TYPES OF PROPHET

Imam Raaghib Al Isfahaani wrote;

"Prophethood is of two kinds, general and special. The special prophethood, viz: the law-bearing prophethood is now unattainable; but the general prophethood continues to be attainable."

(Bahr al Muheet, vol. 3, p. 28)

Hazrat Mohiyyuddin Ibni Arabi wrote;

"That prophethood which ended with the advent of the Prophet (saw), is only law-bearing prophethood and not the status of prophethood. Thus now there will be no law that cancels the law of the Prophet (saw) or that adds to its commandments"

(Fatoohaati Makkiyyah, vol. 2, p. 3)

Than he goes on "Thus prophethood has not been totally abolished. This is why we have said that only law-bearing prophethood has been abolished and this is what is the meaning of (the Hadith) "there is no prophet after him"

Hazrat Imam Abdul Wahhab She'raani wrote;

"Thus, without doubt, ...... prophethood has not been abolished and it is only law-bearing prophethood that is abolished"

(Al Yawaaqeetu Wal Jawaahir: pg 27, argument # 3)

etc, etc, etc,etc,etc,

And than there is among the Sunni Hadith this one;

Ayesha Al Siddeeqah's verdict:

"QOOLOO INNAHU KHATAMUL ANBIYAA'I WA LAA TAQOOLOO LAA NABIYYA BA'DAHU"

"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do NOT say 'there is no prophet after him' "

(Takmilah Majma'ul Bihaar, p. 85)

Nowhere did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claim that he was another LAW BEARING prophet in fact he speaks in terms of Buruz. Wheter he was the Mahdi and Promised Messiah is another issue, but if you read his explanation of the prophecies concerning the signs and function of the Mehdi and Promised Messiah, than it could actually be true (do remember that Isa a.s. was also rejected because ACCORDING to the Jews he did not fullfill the prophecies concerning his coming, so they accused him of NOT having established a Godly kingdom of peace that would last a 1000 yrs, on which Isa a.s. said that those prophecies concerned a HEAVENLY kingdom NOT a kingdom of this earth, nowadays Muslims are making the same mistake as the Jews than did by taking those prophecies literal).

So strictly speaking from an Islamic standpoint there is absolutly NO ground what so ever to say that Ahmadi Muslims are not Muslim for they adhere to the Islamic beliefs and practises (very firmly so i must add). The only difference is that they think Mehdi and Messiah has allready come, wheter you belief that is so or not is a matter of belief, but the belief in Mehdi and the promised Messiah is an intresic part of Islam as it exists today, so yes they are absolutly Muslims (some of the best i've ever met in fact).

Fi amanilah

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AA

When the verse declaring the Holy Prophet to be Khatim un nabiyeen, he was asked what it meant and said it meant "la nabiya baidi". There is no prophet after me. So we don't need dictionary meanings etc. The Holy Prophet is The Last Prophet.

Also, Qadianis believe that only those who a members of their organisation are Muslims and all other recitors of the kalima are out of the fold of Islam. So it seems that their belief is against the teachings of their own founder!

Shahid

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AA

Also, Qadianis believe that only those who a members of their organisation are Muslims and all other recitors of the kalima are out of the fold of Islam. So it seems that their belief is against the teachings of their own founder!

(just rewriten it because i used to much 'he' in my response yesterday, so that whom i meant with 'he' became a bit unclear, so now with names everywhere instead of 'he')

(salam) Yes brother you are right with that one. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself NEVER had said that non-Ahmadi Muslims are outside of the fold of Islam. This is something that was written by the son of Ghulam Ahmad. And this son called Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad is and was a highly controversial person within the history of Ahmadiyyat. The majority of the Anjuman (close companions of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad choosen by him to lead the affairs of the community after his departure) such as Maulvi Sayyid Muhammad Ahsan of Amroha, Maulvi Muhammad Ali, Maulvi Khawaja Kamal-ud-Din etc. distanced themselves from Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad. These close companions were the closest trustees of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and fullfilled important representative roles for the community during Mirza's live, whilest Basheer was only a 17 year old boy when his father died, and as was the way of raising children in those days, really wasn't convied by his father that much. mr Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood has done a lot of damage to the legacy of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it is also Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood that turned Mirza into an actual Prophet, whilest Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has stated very clearly that he NEVER was a Prophet in the sense of a lawbearing Prophet like Rasul (saw), but in the sense of the Sufi term Buruz, meaning becoming a mirror of the Prophet (saw) like the moon reflecting the light of the sun. I think it is very unfortunate that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who tried so well and was without a doubt a pious man is so misunderstood. although i myself am not a member of an Ahmadiyyat Community nor support all their ideas (i reject their reference to Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman for example), but i do am convinced that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself sincerily believed in what he did (no corrupt intentions) and he did come to a lot of very profound understandings which are worthwhile considering (btw Ahmad Deedat used a lot of Mirza's research in debating the Christians).

Fi Amanilah.

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Assalam-o-Alaikum

The Holy Quran is a standard between us. Nowhere in the Holy Quran it is written that the one who believes in a fake prophet as a true prophet is 'kafir'. Everywhere, those who claim to be true prophets but were actually not and those who reject a true prophet have been declared kafir. If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (Peace be upon him) was not a true prophet, then he must be among those who made a false claim. However, Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at cannot be declared 'kafir' on the basis of accepting a false prophet as a true prophet. We can be mistaken but not kafir. If you have a proof from the Holy Quran for what you asserted, please provide. Jazak-Allah

Wassalam

Ansar

In other words you mean that Musalima - Kazab is not kafir like Mirza; who made the false claim of prophethood.

2ndly you setup a rule that if you can not find or prove about a person who made a false claim from quran that he is not a kafir. How can you prove from quran that he is not a kafir. these type of question will return back to you. you will stuck. Prove it from quran that you are "mistaken" but not "kafir". certainly these is no proof for that.

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Salam, read some quotes by the 'ahmadi' dajjal MGA.

"There is great difference between me and your Hussein, because I am getting every moment help from God, but Hussain? Just recall the plains of Karbala! Till now you are crying, so just ponder!" (Ejaz Ahmadi, Page 69 R.K. Vol 19 Page 181)

"O Shia nation! Don't insist that (Syedna Imam) Hussain is your saviour because I tell you truthfully that today there is one among you who is greater than Hussain." (Dafe alBala P.13, R.K. Vol.18 P.233, PDF 264)

''My journey is every time in Karbala and 100 Hussain are in my pocket’’ (Nazool-e-Masih page 99 roohani khizayen Vol 18 Page 477)

"Leave the issue of old Khilafat and take new Khilafa, One Alive Ali is within you and you leave him and you are looking for dead Ali" Malfozat vol 1(I think old set) page 400

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In my opinion, Ahmadi are Muslims just like Sunnis. They might be mistaken and have a wrong belief about the Mahdi but they are Muslim because they affirm the two statements that define a Muslim (la ilaha ila Allah & Muhammad rasul Allah). Muslimeen la momineen.

As for those quotes from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, can anyone point me to where I can find those sources? I have read a couple books by Ahmad (such as Masih Hindustan Main, Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam, & Invitation to Ahmadiyyat) but I haven't come across any of the above statements as of yet. In fact, around 2 Muharrams ago, their current Caliph, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, gave a khutba about Imam Husayn (`a) and his martyrdom (if I remember correctly; I might be wrong since it was years ago, but I think this is correct; I can verify if someone wants me to).

I used to go to an Ahmadi mosque to pray because it was close to me. I've moved away since then but I do remember them being the most sincere and polite people I have ever met. They were very respectful about my not doing namaaz e jamaat with them and were just happy to see a non-Ahmadi Muslim that didn't hate them lol. They asked me to do the Adhan once but I politely declined since they have the standard Sunni version. I had coffee and lunch with their Imam of the mosque a couple times. Very interesting discussions. I do have an above-average knowledge about the Ahmadi jamaat if anyone has questions. I am not an expert by any means and I can't speak on behalf of them, but I can maybe clear some things up.

As for the original poster,

0.) To my knowledge, Ahmadis aren't forbidden from discussing their religion online. Mirza Masroor Ahmad (current Caliph of the Ahmadi jamaat) has cautioned against the use of Facebook but hasn't forbidden it's use nor has he told Ahmadis not to discuss their religion online. (He actually had to clarify his stance on Facebook because some people interpreted his words as forbidding its use, but later explained that he only cautioned its use and didn't forbid it outright.)

1.) There are two types of kufr according to Ahmadiyyat. The first is kufr in Islam; denying the fundamentals of the Islamic religion. The second is a minor kufr; denying the Messiahship of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. The Ahmadi Imam I was friends with explained that I, as a Shia and non-Ahmadi, am a full Muslim and cannot be declared to be a kafir in Islam. However, I am a kafir of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's Messiahship. I agree. I disbelieve in his Messiahship but I am still a Muslim (according to Ahmadis).

2.) Ahmadis view other sects as misguided Muslims, just as we Shias view Sunnis as misguided Muslims.

3.) I disagree. Somebody that believes in one God and the Prophethood of Muhammad Mustafa (salaatu wa salaam `alayhim) is a Muslim.

All the best in sha2 Allah ta'ala.

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