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In the Name of God بسم الله

Pornography

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Now, I'm not suggesting he get into a perm. marriage (though if he has a muta relationship with a girl who is confident and who's father consents - good for him), but you are being naive here - married men, many of them at least, do use porn, as has been noted by a number of males in this thread. It's a problem for adult and child alike.

Eh?

So because many married men have this problem, any child committed to sexual deviance is not disqualified for marriage?

The fact that many men continue to commit sexual deviance into their marriages is an indication that marriage provides no guarantees of a cure. Marriage is a last resort, a desperate measure as common sense informs us that this boy is far from ideally placed to form a marriage when he has not even got to grips with puberty yet, let alone major considerations that have already been discussed. Those who advocate marriage believe the situation is extremely desperate and therefore merits such as desperate measure. Very few of them advocate marriage as an ideal scenario as if this were to be the case, most of them would be married themselves.

Marriage should only be considered once all other curable measures have been exhausted. 95% of young boys who have suffered this problem have encountered solutions that do not involve marriage and will be thankful they managed to avoid a marriage from desperation, instead they may now look forward to planning a marriage from aspiration.

As regards to the act itself. Some of you guys just need to get a grip. I agree this is an urge or an addiction which beats, smoking, drugs, gambling and alcohol to the top of the tree but we can conquer this vice by similar resolve. There is nothing worth sinning for. For sinning is a transgression against God. Is it really that hard to "sacrifice" an abominable delusional self pleasuring deed to save transgressing the covenant from God we are committed to holding?

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The fact that many men continue to commit sexual deviance into their marriages is an indication that marriage provides no guarantees of a cure.

Wrong. The very fact that the sexual deviance committed by these men prior to their marriages was already so deep-rooted in them that it then became their second nature, made it next to impossible to halt it after marriage. Hence, marriage exerts more of a prophylactic role and less of a therapeutic one, at least in most cases. Get the boy married before his curiosity and desires turn into an overwhelming obsession. God willing, he is now at the first stage on the dangerous path to porn addiction.

The rest of your post is irrelevant and you dribbled on even though you didn't have to.

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This will be my last message in this thread regarding marriage at a young age- I don't see much point in continuing further as we have a completely different mentality regarding this.

Exactly why he needs a remedial action before it exacerbates into something more serious. He could start harboring toxic ideas about women, sex and children. Eventually, there can come a time where he's gone astray through masturbation, corruption and debauchery. When interim measures like abstinence or fasting aren't much effective, thats when you need to get him hitched. Marriage would make him more mature and responsible provided he gets a virtuous, lovely, sympathetic and faithful spouse.

He needs the remedial actions much more than he needs marriage- he needs to be able to handle this problem head on. If I was the mother of this child, I would not want him to marry a virtuous, lovely, sympathetic, and faithful spouse- because he needs to be able to handle this problem before he drags someone else into his problem. If his problem does not get better after marriage (which there is absolutely no guarantee that it will- and this has been backed by several of the male members here as well), then this young girl is left with a husband who had a porn problem before marriage that he could not handle, and now he is ruining her life with that problem.

Impenetrable Defense has called this act a sexual deviancy- he is VERY right about this. The solution to a sexual deviancy is not to give this guy a virtuous wife- it is to think about ways to control this deviancy so it does NOT become a problem in marriage. Through pornography, this young man is gaining unrealistic expectations of women, and does not have a clue about what intimacy is like.

Marriage is to help us against sexual sin- we all know that. The problem is that this is not the ONLY purpose of marriage. There is no need to delay marriage for two youth who are serious about their deen and who have the mental and emotional capacity to handle such a responsibility. I was barely 20 years old when I got married, I was still a student, and like Abu Hadi's situation, my husband had only a few hundred dollars in his pocket (no house, no car, no nothing). But, if I got married and found out that my husband has a porn addiction, and he got married to curb his porn addiction, I would really feel taken advantage of. If my husband had no clue what it meant to be a spouse and would have made our financial situation even worse, that would have been a huge problem in our marriage. If my husband was not responsive to me the way a husband should be responsive to a wife, the marriage would not have been successful. No- instead I married someone who understood how to lower his gaze from the beginning and concentrated on other ways to occupy himself until it was his time to get married. Marriage is not about putting a band-aid on a problem- it is about two people who come together who are ready to commit the rest of their lives together.

For those who don't know, it all starts with porn-watching. Experts have described 5 stages of addiction

Agreed. So before it gets worse, before we are unsure whether or not marriage will exacerbate the issue or not, we need to make sure the boy is able to understand what this sexual deviancy is, and how it will ultimately be harmful in a marriage and a single person.

Since you bring up a scholar's example, do you know what Ayatollah Ibrahim Amiri (a pious, discernible scholar conversant with family problems for many years, who has close contacts with the problems of youth) said in his book " Spouse Selection." ???

This is the ayatullah's opinion, and perhaps he is writing it assuming that all the other prerequisites are met. But the fact that very prominent ayatullahs, and our Aimmah did not necessarily get married this young, shows to ME... that there is nothing wrong with delaying until a person is ready.

No offense, but for a mod, you have less than expected reading skills. This is what I said " Yep, It could refer to any person who is baligh & his/her sinning makes it wajib upon him/her to get married (assuming that fasting isn't helping or abstinence is difficult)

OF COURSE abstinence will be difficult- it's difficult for ANYBODY... but it is POSSIBLE. There are prophet who have had to abstain for their entire lives (e.g., Nabi Isa) or for a long period of time before they could get married! (e.g., Nabi Musa). Their example came to us to show us that every situation is DIFFERENT, and we have to see a particular child's situation before any decisions can really be made. Fasting and abstinence is NEVER easy- but neither are a lot of things that we just have to deal with.

Hey, its my turn to play this game called " What if ? " biggrin.gif Here goes: What if he is an understanding boy, What if he can balance his time with his friends and wife, what if he has the ability to cater to her every legitimate wish, what if he has realistic expectations, what if he supports her emotionally?

I would rather not wait until he is married to find out the answers to those questions. Let him handle this porn problem first, and then we can address those other questions after.

Thats fallacious & pessimistic thinking, to say the least. Generally speaking, marriage instills a sense of maturity in a boy as he learns to handle new responsibilities. Why prolong the risk of destabilizing your faith by delaying marriage? As we all know what holy Prophet pbuh.gif said - a person does not marry, his faith lies in danger. This is because sexual instincts, spiritual pressures, sense of solitude and futility, the lack of social responsibility, as well as many other harms of remaining unmarried can damage the roots of man's faith. I'm not saying you're against marriage, but why prolong this "at- risk" phase when one has the option available to do it early? especially when one is starting to deviate into porn and face its potential ramification?

Because the at-risk boy should deal with all his issues and not put a band-aid on the problem. As I said- I have no qualms with early marriage, and no qualms with a poor person being married. My problem is with the mindset that a porn problem is a symptom that a 16-year old boy needs to marry a virtuous wife, and that is the solution to the problem... you said we should address fasting and abstinence first, but you brush it off like it is too difficult. This is where we fundamentally disagree.

As I said, I'm done, and your somewhat insulting post is an indication to me that this discussion will go nowhere.

Wasalaam

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Eh?

So because many married men have this problem, any child committed to sexual deviance is not disqualified for marriage?

"committed to sexual deviance"? That's a bit much. I doubt he has a commitment to it, much more likely he has trouble resisting it.

And no, I don't expect that a man or woman should be disqualified for marriage because they have trouble with porn. What else should disqualify them, masturbation? Erotica? Infact Islam recommends marriage as the solution to these problems.

Edited by Dirac Delta function
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.. then this young girl is left with a husband who had a porn problem before marriage that he could not handle, and now he is ruining her life with that problem.

Path2Felicity, several steps need to be taken including dua, fasting and abstinence through fear of Allah but one of the wajib steps is marriage and this recommendation for marriage does not mean that other factors like mental & emotional capacity aren't taken into consideration. And I doubt the porn problem has reached such a level that the boy cannot handle it.

According to the Fatwa of: Ayatullah al-Uzma as-Sayyid al-Hajj Ali al-Husaini as-seestani

2452. If a person gets entangled in haraam acts owing to his not having a wife, it is obligatory for him to marry.

http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=n...59&pid=3087

I'm also done with this thread and seek forgiveness for my impatience that resulted in a somewhat insulting attitude. jazakallah for your input & Fi amanillah.

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here is something that few seem to consider: do you honestly think that the boy likes what he is doing? from a young age we have been told not to do things like this. the boy is probably feeling huge amounts of guilt and despression. he probably only does porn because he feels like he has to. i know form other men his age that they absolutely hate what is going on and really want to marry to stop their problems. i know of men who had this problem and it stopped once they got married. if he is a sincere boy he wont continue this after marriage.

the boy needs to get engaged because it will soothe his mind.

sister pather2felicity prophets moses and isa didnt have porn staring in their face all the time. they lived in more conservative communities. whereas prophet yusuf:

here an arif tells us the truth:

Twelfth Action: The twelfth act is the Tawaf an‑Nisa. After performing the Halq or Taqsir, many things which were forbidden for the one performing Hajj now become permitted ‑ except for the use of perfume and all pleasures one derives from the opposite sex.

The only way that these two are made permissible is that after Mina, one returns to the House of Allah and performs the Tawaf, Salat of the Tawaf, Sa'i between the mountains of al‑Safa and al‑Marwah, and then performs the final Tawaf known as Tawaf an‑Nisa, such that then perfume and all sexual relations become permissible for one.

Perhaps one of the secrets behind this is that no matter what level a human reaches to in witnessing the manifestation of the greatness of Allah , however, in order to gain authority over one's sexual instincts, one is still in need of reaching to an even higher station and is in need of more assistance.

`And certainly she made for him, and he would have made for her were it not that he had seen the manifest evidence of his Lord. " [28]

In all the examinations that Yusuf the Truthful went through one after the other, he came out with passing marks, even when the group of women with their apparent beauty, which in reality was their lack of modesty, tried to seduce him. He replied: `O' Allah! The prison is better for me than what these women say!' [29]

"My Lord! The prison is dearer to me, than that to which they invite me. " [30]

However, it was this same Yusuf (as) that even though the status that he was at and while scoring high marks in his examinations (from Allah), but when put face to face with his sexual instincts, he showed his weakness or inability. He said that it was Allah who saved him, not himself, and that if He were not there, he would have failed the exam:

`And if Thou turn not away their device from me, I will yearn towards them and become (one) of the ignorant. " [31]

Therefore, in reality there is a great lesson for all of us ‑ especially the youth ‑ in the Tawaf an‑Nisa. If we want to remain guarded from the evils of our sexual instincts, then in addition to controlling them through the power of intention that we posses and by satisfying them through the sound and approved Islamic methods, we must also ask for assistance from Allah and seek help through the religious acts of pleasure such as Tawaf an‑Nisa.

http://www.al-islam.org/secretsofthehajj/5.htm

[28] Surah Yusuf (12), Verse 24

[29] Surah Yusuf (12), Verse 33

[30] Sarah Yusuf (12), Verse 33

[31] Surah Yusuf (12), Verse 33

see even prophet yusuf had troubles. so the moral of that story is that the boy needs to be cut off from the porn. like prophet yusuf prayed to go to prison the boy needs to use a computer infront of a family member otherwise he will fall into sin. this 16 year old boy isnt prophet yusuf and even that prophet couldnt take it anymore, he prayed to go to prison.

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(bismillah)

Recite Surahs al-Hadeed (57), as-Saff (61), al-Jum’ah (62) and al-Taghabun (64) every day. If not then atleast listen to them as much as possible. The lawful will become more pleasurable than the unlawful.

Sura al-Saffat every morning and Surah Hashr at night. This will cleanse your batin. Atleast recite these if you cant recite the above.

Recite the dua in the last verse of Surah Baqarah like in qunoot.

áÇó íõßóáøöÝõ Çááøåõ äóÝúÓðÇ ÅöáÇøó æõÓúÚóåóÇ áóåóÇ ãóÇ ßóÓóÈóÊú æóÚóáóíúåóÇ ãóÇ ÇßúÊóÓóÈóÊú ÑóÈøóäóÇ áÇó ÊõÄóÇÎöÐúäóÇ Åöä äøóÓöíäóÇ Ãóæú ÃóÎúØóÃúäóÇ ÑóÈøóäóÇ æóáÇó ÊóÍúãöáú ÚóáóíúäóÇ ÅöÕúÑðÇ ßóãóÇ ÍóãóáúÊóåõ Úóáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó ãöä ÞóÈúáöäóÇ ÑóÈøóäóÇ æóáÇó ÊõÍóãøöáúäóÇ ãóÇ áÇó ØóÇÞóÉó áóäóÇ Èöåö æóÇÚúÝõ ÚóäøóÇ æóÇÛúÝöÑú áóäóÇ æóÇÑúÍóãúäóÇ ÃóäÊó ãóæúáÇóäóÇ ÝóÇäÕõÑúäóÇ Úóáóì ÇáúÞóæúãö ÇáúßóÇÝöÑöíäó

(Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.)

Recite the following dhikr thirteen or one hundred times in the morning and evening to suppress the unruly carnal soul: "Allahumma lakalhamdu wa alayka 'l mushtaka wa Anta al-Musta'an

(O Allah! All praise is due to You, complaints are made to You, and You are the one whose help is sought for)."

Recite one hundred times every night: "Ya Zakiyyut Tahiru min kulli afatin bi kudsih."

(O You who are) pure and clean from any bane through Your sanctity).

Lower your gaze no matter what even if it means you have to stay at home all the time unless necessary.

Fast and exercise regularly and eat less. Also leave out the hair under your belly.

And one of the major steps as pointed is to get married. Not doing so is a sin and you will start losing ma'arifat as your heart's window starts getting blackened. How and to whom to get married is a seperate issue. Dont listen to those discouraging you since it is a wajibat. It is not something new that the people with no knowledge discourage the believers from their wajibats because they dont understand the whole situation and would rather conform to what is easy than stand up bravely for what is right.

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I think this thread has just about run it's course, I just have a few final comments.

1) Sis path (and others), we must be careful of taking opinions from Western Psychology over the fatwa of our marjaa. There is pretty much universal agreement of the shia ulema about this issue with regards to being 'ready' for marriage and when marriage becomes wajib. A girl or boy is ready for marriage once they are 'balgha' (physically mature) and 'rushd' (mentally competant to deal with married life). I agree the second is somewhat subjective but there are many more clear benchmarks for this than for the idea of 'ready' in Western Psychology. Also, marriage becomes wajib when the boy or girl falls into haram as a result of not being married.

There are many parents who want the best for their kids and as a result of this want end up destroying them (actually the kids destroy themselves with their parent's help and consent). This is because they end up following their own desires rather than the religion of Islam, which they claim to follow. Every parent wants their children to finish college at around 22, do an internship / professional program / medical school / law school / etc, have a career in their mid twenties and then get married. I include myself in this. But at the same time, a wise parent realizes that life is not always that predictable and when I am faced with the choice of accepting my child to do any haram(because most parents know this stuff is going on but chose to ignore it, let's be real here) or take some action which has a possibility of stoping the haram (it's true that it does not always work, but I can also cite for you many cases where it has) and this puts my desires for my child's future career on hold, I will do it in a second. What is the use of having a child who has a sucessful career but their Iman and Taqwa are gone. Without the Iman and Taqwa, a successful child wouldn't really be any use to me or to himself, or the Ummah.

Also, some sisters are ignoring the affect this addiction has on them or their younger sisters who are trying to get married. When pornography addiction becomes widespread in society (as it is almost everywhere now), now sisters feel they must 'push the envelope' or go outside of it completely in order to compete with these images for a man. So they start to wear tighter, more flashy cloths, wear more makeup, flirt more by text or chat or phone and more explicitly. I don't think you would deny that this is just as prevalent in our community as the subject of this thread is. At least, it is here. Anything that effects the brs also effects the sisters and vice versa. We need to stop looking at the issue as just a brs problem or just a sis problem. If it is a problem for either, it is a problem for both, and we should help each other to try to solve it.

I agree that there are some brs, due to being raised in a very clean home environment plus very low hormone levels, delayed physical development, etc that can go for a long period of time without being married and stay away from haram. My post is not addressing those brs. They obviously have a choice as to whether to marry or delay it. In my experience this is a very small minority, and a very large majority of parents put their child into this category with a lot of wishful thinking and lots of ignoring of things that they see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears. They will be accountable for this, and something must change if we are to survive as an ummah. OK, enough said.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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shall we hold our breaths for 2) and 3) etc? :mellow:

I agree that there are some brs, due to being raised in a very clean home environment plus very low hormone levels, delayed physical development, etc that can go for a long period of time without being married and stay away from haram.

but may I just say :lol: at you at painting those unmarried fellows who are able to stay away from haram as developmentally retarded :lol: *clap clap*

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Many here agree that this boy should "ideally" get married.

However, the question is...will he really be able to get married?

Many teenage muslim boys fully understand that it is obligatory for them to get married. They are prepared to get married and to face the challenges that come with. They are mature enough to handle the responsibility. Thus, they make strong efforts to get married, try to convince their parents, reach out to local scholars to arrange a proposal and if nothing works, try their best to do mutah somehow.......but for many men, the efforts dont bear fruit.

Even after trying their level best, many young men are simply not able to get married, even though it is wajib for them. This is not their fault. If they are forced to remain single against their wish, we cannot blame them. Instead, we should feel sorry them - rather than making them more depressed by advocating early marriage to them - which is something they have been trying to achieve, but have been unsuccessful.

We should advise marriage to this boy, but also keep in mind that in most likelihood, he would have to remain single for many, many years before he would succeed in finding a halal sexual outlet.

Till then, patience, abstinence and extreme self-control is the ONLY option for him. Therefore, I believe, it is even more important for us to advise him to control his sexual desire, considering the fact that marriage could be a very distant reality for him.

If he is able to get married early, well and good! But in reality, it could be an extremely difficult objective...

Edited by Liggel
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alsalam alaikum

I dont remember ahlulbait having problems like this but i remember that they were getting married at very young ages. at the ages of 13 and 12 and so on....

its no wonder that we have all these problems its directly related to our distance from the instructions given by Islam.

we will allways get the argument about:

" how can he support his family"

" marriage is sacred institution and its not for sex"

" he is not mature and will ruin the wife"

" patience is better than marriage so he should control his desire"

"he has to finish his education and marriage will interfere with it"

and so on

my answer is

" how can he support his family"

Just like the way he is supposed to support himself without marriage and she was supposed to be supported without the marriage, in fact with marriage and sharing their expenses would go down and I challenge anyone to prove this wrong because I calculate every cent that I spend in my house and when I got married things became a lot cheaper for both of us... I can give you the yearly financial report to prove it lol

The prophet says " whoever refrains from marriage afraid from financial stress then he has made bad suspicions about the generosity of god"

" marriage is sacred institution and its not for sex"

If marriage was not for sex you wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have had to deal with your nonsensical argument.

If you say that the sex is only for reproduction then you would only need to do it only once per year but would that be an Islamicly acceptable option? NO. if you don't do it for 3 months your wife can divorce you, you priest. The prophet says " marriage is from my traditions , whoever doesn't like my tradition is not from me"

" he is not mature and will ruin the wife"

Which is the worse of the two evils ? immature marriage or an immature fornication??? which one will ruin them more ??? believe me we have alot of immature 50 and 60 year old couples and that's maybe the majority of our parents and grandparents but which harm is bigger ? immature people being married to each other or a Muslim's honor wasted by fornication and stained for the rest of his/her life?

" patience is better than marriage so he should control his desire"

Your wrong and you don't seem to read the Quraan. The verse says "and for those who can not find marriage then let them stay pure until Allah suffices them from his favor" so its very evident that the marriage is better than single life and it comes as a priority in the Islamic instructions.

"he has to finish his education and marriage will interfere with it"

Actually marriage is very good for education... he can use his brain to think about the study rather than the women. Even if we assume that marriage interferes with study, we ask which one is more important for some one who is committing sin??? lets say he got 50 degrees and PHDS in rocket science but he fornicated but another one who doesn't know how to read and writes but remained pure then which one is better?

walsalaam

Edited by alimohamad40
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I think there is something missing from the discussion, and that is, this is not only a situation of normal hormonal desires leading someone to an 'accidental' sin. Turning on a computer (or buying a magazine, or renting a movie) is a voluntary act, a choice which requires a certain amount of effort. Normal teenagers cannot 'turn off' their hormones, but they can commit not to engage in active, blatant choices of haram, such as seeking out pornography (or drugs, or anything else like that).

This is the first thing a teenager in this situation needs to do - make the choice to stop choosing to view such material, especially while they are still young and have not been corrupted yet. Some people continue with this well into adulthood (including during marriage) and as Kaneez said, it is an addiction, and it messes people up. This is one reason why it is better never to approach a haram which might have some enjoyment, because when you never experience something, you never miss it. But once you have experienced something haram, you sometimes are tempted to go back to it.

Marriage can help someone with the normal desires, but it does not substitute for the willpower to abstain from active sins. We all commit sins on accident and should try to avoid those, but the ones that are intentional and repeated are more serious.

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This is one reason why it is better never to approach a haram which might have some enjoyment, because when you never experience something, you never miss it. But once you have experienced something haram, you sometimes are tempted to go back to it.

I think you are wrong here.

I can understand your pov when it comes to say drinking alcohol or gambling. IMHO there is nothing in human psychology that at some point says to an individual - shucks I'd like a pint of beer. Most people are introduced to alcohol by someone else. On the other hand there is definitely something that kicks off around puberty (for males anyway) which says, 'I'd rather like to have sex'. This is why for many people M is self-discovered.

Anyway I would make the observation, that what we are mainly talking about in this thread is male sexuality. And it is fascinating as to how many Sis appear to believe that they have mega insights into it. If this had been something about 'women's stuff', (1) most men would have felt ill-equipped to talk about it and (2) if some brave bloke had tried he would soon have been given his marching orders.

Edited by Haji 2003
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I think there is something missing from the discussion, and that is, this is not only a situation of normal hormonal desires leading someone to an 'accidental' sin. Turning on a computer (or buying a magazine, or renting a movie) is a voluntary act, a choice which requires a certain amount of effort. Normal teenagers cannot 'turn off' their hormones, but they can commit not to engage in active, blatant choices of haram, such as seeking out pornography (or drugs, or anything else like that).

i agree with the above posters. you have no idea what you are talking about. for males the desire is natural and its not easy to control in the slightest to say the very least. i give an example of a prophet in the above post who couldnt control this desire. its like having a drug addiction but much worse. no doubt the act of this sin is voluntary but it cannot be compared to other sins. the only way i can describe it is by comparing it to the call of nature. if someone told you not to go to the toilet because its a sin, do you think you could do it? would you be able to keep it in.

abu hadi is right. these boys need to get married and they need to take it into their own hands. Allah didnt create mutah for nothing. whether yo like it or not. this is the truth.

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I think you are wrong here.

I can understand your pov when it comes to say drinking alcohol or gambling. IMHO there is nothing in human psychology that at some point says to an individual - shucks I'd like a pint of beer. Most people are introduced to alcohol by someone else. On the other hand there is definitely something that kicks off around puberty (for males anyway) which says, 'I'd rather like to have sex'. This is why for many people M is self-discovered.

Anyway I would make the observation, that what we are mainly talking about in this thread is male sexuality. And it is fascinating as to how many Sis appear to believe that they have mega insights into it. If this had been something about 'women's stuff', (1) most men would have felt ill-equipped to talk about it and (2) if some brave bloke had tried he would soon have been given his marching orders.

with respect, i'm not talking about his desire to have sex, look at girls on the street, or even self-induced zina (the M, as you call it).

i'm talking about the conscious choice to fulfill (and inflame) that desire by seeking out videos and pix, an action that requires planning and effort.

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no doubt the act of this sin is voluntary but it cannot be compared to other sins. the only way i can describe it is by comparing it to the call of nature. if someone told you not to go to the toilet because its a sin, do you think you could do it? would you be able to keep it in.

although the desires may be natural, the call of nature does not require people to watch girlie videos.

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although the desires may be natural, the call of nature does not require people to watch girlie videos.

it requires an action. planning . going to the toilet. walking there. buying toilet accessories. thats my analogy. a desire which is so strong it does that to many males. it makes it very hard for them not to do these planned actions.

not doubt it is a sin. but we need to understand that mere supression is near impossible. he needs another way out.

he either needs to get married or to get wet dreams.

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it requires an action. planning . going to the toilet. walking there. buying toilet accessories. thats my analogy. a desire which is so strong it does that to many males. it makes it very hard for them not to do these planned actions.

not doubt it is a sin. but we need to understand that mere supression is near impossible. he needs another way out.

he either needs to get married or to get wet dreams.

Sin? going to toilet? what? :blink:

I understand. It's a dirty thing to do. -_-

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Path2Felicity, several steps need to be taken including dua, fasting and abstinence through fear of Allah but one of the wajib steps is marriage and this recommendation for marriage does not mean that other factors like mental & emotional capacity aren't taken into consideration. And I doubt the porn problem has reached such a level that the boy cannot handle it.

According to the Fatwa of: Ayatullah al-Uzma as-Sayyid al-Hajj Ali al-Husaini as-seestani

2452. If a person gets entangled in haraam acts owing to his not having a wife, it is obligatory for him to marry.

http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=n...59&pid=3087

I'm also done with this thread and seek forgiveness for my impatience that resulted in a somewhat insulting attitude. jazakallah for your input & Fi amanillah.

I enjoy reading your posts on this thread, they make a good read.

Where there is a disagreement such as this, like yourself I am always inclined to turn to the rulings of our Ulema'. We both agree to this ruling no doubt. Where our disagreement lies is in the principal cause of his sinful behaviour and Islam's advice on a principal cure. I do not subscribe to the view that a 16 year old boy who has barely completed puberty is engaging a curiosity in pornography because he is unmarried (and therefore eliminating the sin is best fulfilled by becoming married). I believe it is due to a host of other reasons which have been discussed in depth throughout this thread and therefore the best measures according to Islam such as reengaging with deen, performing fasts, learning about sexual responsibilities and a host of other suggestions should be accorded in this case. If a man well past the age of 16, has no intention of marriage, believes it is something impossible, suffers anxiety and depression as a result and his will to retain his discipline deteriorates to the extent where he endangers a sinful act then I believe marriage should be at the forefront of his corrective approach. But on the evidence based in the thread thus far, the problem is not owing to not having a wife, nor can it be concluded he is ready for a wife and therefore there is no guarantee or sensible basis to project marriage as the appropriate response, rather the countless other approaches that have been exhausted on this thread involving family and routine talks etc.

I am also amazed at the selectivity people have in regards to the rulings of the Ulema'. Why not post the rulings stressing the overwhelming necessity of the parental role in any consideration for marriage. Their views and considerations are absolutely vital and must be fully accounted for any marriage to be blessed in Islam. Circumstances that enable exceptions to this are very tight indeed. The dissing of parents on this thread is quite extraordinary.

I agree that there are some brs, due to being raised in a very clean home environment plus very low hormone levels, delayed physical development, etc that can go for a long period of time without being married and stay away from haram. My post is not addressing those brs. They obviously have a choice as to whether to marry or delay it. In my experience this is a very small minority, and a very large majority of parents put their child into this category with a lot of wishful thinking and lots of ignoring of things that they see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears. They will be accountable for this, and something must change if we are to survive as an ummah. OK, enough said.

"Cary Grant" responded with ridicule and I am sorry to say, her ridicule is justified. Brother seriously, what are you on about? very clean home environment plus very low hormone levels, delayed physical development? Will it surprise you to know that if you search google on which nations of peoples have entered the word "sex" or "porn" or even "gay" most, you will find at the top, countries such as Pakistan, India,, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Egypt etc. Societies that have yet to progress beyond the animalistic understanding of sex, societies that are considered closed, repressive and conservative. It is owing to the primitive nature of their understanding of sex that lends themselves to have these obscene and filthy desires. You will find those who utterly reject the notion that it is near impossible to live in a western society without falling into sin to come from western cities bereft of any muslim communities or islamic standards at all. To come from those who have very early "physical development" (lol) and have just the same dose of testerone (probably more, plenty ways to tell other than measuring someones tendency to sexual animalism) than you or anyone else who believes sexual discipline in a western unmarried life is "near impossible".

Haji 2003 is so right on this one i cannot agree more. Women here don't know anything about male urges so they don't know what the whole deal is. The day women begin to understand male psyche is the day they start wearing male clothes like the western women..

The same argument used by women against men. I thought it was women who had these all too powerful hormonal effects that excuses a lot of their misdemeanours and therefore not worthy of any rational consideration. We are told as young men, they are women, they have weird hormones, leave them be. You wouldnt think it on this thread.

i agree with the above posters. you have no idea what you are talking about. for males the desire is natural and its not easy to control in the slightest to say the very least. i give an example of a prophet in the above post who couldnt control this desire. its like having a drug addiction but much worse. no doubt the act of this sin is voluntary but it cannot be compared to other sins. the only way i can describe it is by comparing it to the call of nature. if someone told you not to go to the toilet because its a sin, do you think you could do it? would you be able to keep it in.

abu hadi is right. these boys need to get married and they need to take it into their own hands. Allah didnt create mutah for nothing. whether yo like it or not. this is the truth.

Imam Ali a.s said "Allah created sexual desires in 10 parts, 9 of which He gave to women, one of which He gave to men, He created shyness in 10 parts and He gave 9 parts to women and 1 part to men". Men and women differ in their make up, but their challenges and ensuing responsibilities amount to the same in this regard. Imam Baqir a.s stated "The best woman among you is the one who discards the armour of shyness when she undresses for her husband, and puts on the armour of shyness when she dresses up again."

This is something that applies to both sexes. Every act of adultery out there is committed by a guy and a woman (excluding homesexual cases). Infact, women's desire for sexual gratification is greater but her shyness protects her in reverse measure. Just in the same way the guy is more inclined to express his lustful tendencies when performing immoral and indecent acts, he is also more inclined to express the nature of these acts in words. Just because women are less willing to talk about it, doesnt mean they do not have to meet the same challenges and adapt to their responsibilities in just the same way as men do.

it requires an action. planning . going to the toilet. walking there. buying toilet accessories. thats my analogy. a desire which is so strong it does that to many males. it makes it very hard for them not to do these planned actions.

not doubt it is a sin. but we need to understand that mere supression is near impossible. he needs another way out.

he either needs to get married or to get wet dreams.

Why the clamour for all this mitigation and excuses for these henious animalistic tendencies. Stimulating your own sexual organ is utter humiliation. Nothing humiliates me more when every second conversation my friends have is about their submission to their animalistic lustful desires. Every women that passes by they pass a remark on her sexual appeal. I say to them "you are like a bunch of women". On the evidence of this thread, I will need to discover a new simile" There is nothing natural about masturbation. Only in western pyschology it is a natural tendency. There is nothing "natural" about wanting to have sex with any female form that owns a receiver. It is natural for monkeys yes, natural for animals yes, but not natural for a human, much less a muslim. Humans have been created with a capacity for animalistic desires. He also created His perfected religion to conquer these animalistic desires and elevate them to noble desires, desire we do not call lust, do not call sex but rather love. Desires than enable man to only reach real fulfillment when he carries out the most desirable of engagements through love, emotional attachment, impenetrable bond. He created a wife for this purpose and He created marriage to house this most sacred of purposes.

"like cattle, nay they are more astray; they are the heedless ones." (7:179)

This will be my last message in this thread regarding marriage at a young age- I don't see much point in continuing further as we have a completely different mentality regarding this.

He needs the remedial actions much more than he needs marriage- he needs to be able to handle this problem head on. If I was the mother of this child, I would not want him to marry a virtuous, lovely, sympathetic, and faithful spouse- because he needs to be able to handle this problem before he drags someone else into his problem. If his problem does not get better after marriage (which there is absolutely no guarantee that it will- and this has been backed by several of the male members here as well), then this young girl is left with a husband who had a porn problem before marriage that he could not handle, and now he is ruining her life with that problem.

Impenetrable Defense has called this act a sexual deviancy- he is VERY right about this. The solution to a sexual deviancy is not to give this guy a virtuous wife- it is to think about ways to control this deviancy so it does NOT become a problem in marriage. Through pornography, this young man is gaining unrealistic expectations of women, and does not have a clue about what intimacy is like.

Marriage is to help us against sexual sin- we all know that. The problem is that this is not the ONLY purpose of marriage. There is no need to delay marriage for two youth who are serious about their deen and who have the mental and emotional capacity to handle such a responsibility. I was barely 20 years old when I got married, I was still a student, and like Abu Hadi's situation, my husband had only a few hundred dollars in his pocket (no house, no car, no nothing). But, if I got married and found out that my husband has a porn addiction, and he got married to curb his porn addiction, I would really feel taken advantage of. If my husband had no clue what it meant to be a spouse and would have made our financial situation even worse, that would have been a huge problem in our marriage. If my husband was not responsive to me the way a husband should be responsive to a wife, the marriage would not have been successful. No- instead I married someone who understood how to lower his gaze from the beginning and concentrated on other ways to occupy himself until it was his time to get married. Marriage is not about putting a band-aid on a problem- it is about two people who come together who are ready to commit the rest of their lives together.

Agreed. So before it gets worse, before we are unsure whether or not marriage will exacerbate the issue or not, we need to make sure the boy is able to understand what this sexual deviancy is, and how it will ultimately be harmful in a marriage and a single person.

This is the ayatullah's opinion, and perhaps he is writing it assuming that all the other prerequisites are met. But the fact that very prominent ayatullahs, and our Aimmah did not necessarily get married this young, shows to ME... that there is nothing wrong with delaying until a person is ready.

OF COURSE abstinence will be difficult- it's difficult for ANYBODY... but it is POSSIBLE. There are prophet who have had to abstain for their entire lives (e.g., Nabi Isa) or for a long period of time before they could get married! (e.g., Nabi Musa). Their example came to us to show us that every situation is DIFFERENT, and we have to see a particular child's situation before any decisions can really be made. Fasting and abstinence is NEVER easy- but neither are a lot of things that we just have to deal with.

I would rather not wait until he is married to find out the answers to those questions. Let him handle this porn problem first, and then we can address those other questions after.

Because the at-risk boy should deal with all his issues and not put a band-aid on the problem. As I said- I have no qualms with early marriage, and no qualms with a poor person being married. My problem is with the mindset that a porn problem is a symptom that a 16-year old boy needs to marry a virtuous wife, and that is the solution to the problem... you said we should address fasting and abstinence first, but you brush it off like it is too difficult. This is where we fundamentally disagree.

As I said, I'm done, and your somewhat insulting post is an indication to me that this discussion will go nowhere.

Wasalaam

Excellent Post.

Edited by Impenetrable_Defence
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Pornography Addiction amongst Muslims, stories and tips:

http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/19/pornog...s-stories-tips/

So clearly it still happens after marriage for some people, it is sad to read about the wife's POV. :(

Edited by Hassan2jz
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Salaam,

The solutions that have been suggested and which first spring to mind are no doubt marriage and mut'ah. But these may be impractical for social, cultural, financial or other reasons. There might however be another less known solution.

As with excessive drinking, smoking, drugs and gambling, pornography and its associated activities have probably become addictive habits that are ingrained in his behavioural pattern. However, as with those activities the most practical solution in dealing with enslaving habits could, in my opinion, be Hypnotherapy. Most people are oblivious of it or of its effectiveness and potential while many have learned this skill for general self-empowerment and self-change. Your brother shouldn't be exposed to others, including parents for reasons already cited. However it's your duty to assist him out of the swamp tactfully and covertly with a hint that you know of his problem. He should feel found out though not confronted. This may prompt his motivation for self-change. And again I would consider Hypnotherapy as a possible solution.

Allah's (swt) Mercy necessitates a solution to every problem though we are often unaware and in despair.

Regards

Edited by Transient
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Additionally, I'd like to add to the last couple posts that I feel like something has been largely missing from this discussion, and that is, no matter how tempting this may be, it is an obvious and clear haram. It is not only one haram but a multiple haram. Aside from violating the right of the body to avoid sin, it is also violating the right of the eyes not to view sin, the right of the lady not to be looked at inappropriately, violating the rule to lower the gaze, etc(Ok so she waived that right when she signed up for her job, but that does not mean that it is not wrong to look at her like that) So it is like a triple or quadruple haram, not to mention something that is addictive and psychologically destructive.

If we are Muslims, we believe that we should avoid haram as much as possible. Now we may slip and have problems, but we have to focus on trying to find ways to get away from major harams especially compounded harams. We shouldn't try to explain just that they are irresistble. Eating is natural too, but if we were all talking about why we have to eat ham sandwiches, I'm sure we'd agree that we have to try to refocus our attention on avoiding the haram. Even if we had to choose to eat a haram food (such as stolen bread instead of stolen ham), I'm sure we'd all agree that it is beter to try to avoid as much haram as possible and eat the stolen bread instead of the stolen ham, because it is committing less sins (even though it is a sin) and is less harmful (in that it does not have the harmful things that pork has).

I might add to the above that there is nothing natural about watching videos on the internet; prior generations did not have access to those the same way people do today, at a touch of a button and whenever they want. It is a very unnatural thing and is very unhealthy, as described above.

I've heard some people have success with hypnotherapy for various issues; who knows, maybe it works

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Salaam allaikum,

I really like the stance of the last few posts. No sin is natural or irresistable.

If God has made something a haram then there are overriding harms to doing them; also he has made it possible to resist them. God would never make something a sin and then make it impossible for us to resist. For proof even children know these things are wrong; its that inborn in our fitra.

I personally think its wrong to lean towards the position that this is impossible to resist etc...gotta get married asap or else etc. While marriage is impt this is a sin and all sins must be avoided. If we teach this as a idealogy i think its better than teaching oh well hes not married so its understandable. Even when we look throughout history people were rarely married right at the onset of puberty; hence this is a seperate issue than marriage itself.

At the same time the atttitudes we see in our societies are unnatural. Non muslims start having relationships at 14,15 but somehow muslims are expected to wait till 25,26 or even older? This attitude is pretty crazy and this also, just like pornography is unnatural and unhealthy. Obviously it aint working. I feel disgusted at the mothers and fathers who overlook their kids sins and issues and live in some wonderland; all this in the name of "becoming educated/becoming a doctor/getting a phd etc". I feel like these crazy ideas are even more dangerous than porn; At least everyone knows porn is wrong, but trying changing some of these ideas in peoples heads.

To really combat societies problems we should fix both of these things. 1. Teach resistance to sinning and 2. form and shield our communities in a way that helps to facilitate resistance to sinning; these work hand in hand.

Edited by seyedmusawi
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its better than teaching oh well hes not married so its understandable.

Yes. Many people here portray marriage as the ONLY solution to sexual sins. This is a very negative attitude because it can give the impression to young men that since they are facing genuine difficulty in getting married, so it is understandable and excusable if they sin.

It is dangerous to advocate marriage as the only solution. It can do more harm than good, by giving the false impression that till the time they get married, it would not be possible for them to avoid sin.

It is wajib to get married if there is fear of sinning. But it is always wajib to not sin, whether you can get married or not. People who advise early marriages base their claim on the assumption that without marriage, chastity would not be possible - a wrong impression.

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I thought I was done with this thread, then I came across this. It is from Sayyid Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah's website.

The subject of the question is slightly different, but I think it applies equally to the subject of this thread.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=143

In case the link doesn't work, it is the English section, Q&A, Youth Issues

Q: I am a 19 years old young man. I wish that Your Eminence would help me. All day long, I feel like wanting to make sex, so I practice masturbation. I tired to stop this habit and restrain myself from doing it, but I could not because my desire to have sex is increasing day after day. I do not want to commit a prohibited act, so how can I face this desire? 6/20/2007 1:39:15 PM

A: It is good for you to be far from all what excites you and do not stay alone. You can also engage yourself with public activities and recite supplications. Besides, you have to think seriously in getting married since marriage is the most successful means to protect oneself from committing prohibited acts.

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^ Who denies this?

The question is even if he makes the most serious efforts, he still might not be able to get married soon. The only option in that case would be to practise self-restraint.

While early marriage should be encouraged, it has to be kept in mind that there is no guarantee of getting married early, and therefore one should be as much encouraged to remain patient as advised to get married early.

Infact, when you are sure someone would not be able to get married early, despite the best efforts, then the only thing you can do is to advise him to control himself. I think everyone puts the stress on early marriage, but not so much stress on avoiding sin before marriage. This can lead unmarried boys to think they have an excuse to sin!

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^ Who denies this?

I said it in the beginning of the thread, and I'll repeat it now. Marriage is not a solution, nor a substitute, nor a fix for anything.

I don't have a problem with Ulama saying that it becomes "obligatory" on a person to seek marriage if they fear of falling into sin, as long as they are presenting this as a jurisprudential edict. However, I highly doubt that such an edict has any basis in Qur'an on Hadeeth.

If, however, they are presenting this as a personal judgment of marriage being a means to stopping sinful habits, then they are wrong (not to mention unqualified to give such and opinion in the first place -- in the majority of cases). The reality is that most individuals (male and female) who develop habits such as looking at pornography or masturbating before marriage will most likely continue with these habits after marriage, even if they have an active sex life. This is because engaging in these habits isn't purely about fulfilling an urge. Like all bad habits and addictions, there is a psychological and behavioral element that intercourse doesn't remedy.

This is why pushing a child who has developed some bad habits to marry just because some Ulama think it would help, is an absurd idea. Forget for a moment that you would be decreeing marriage for them on thier behalf, which itself is wrong, but the marriage itself would be for all the wrong reasons, and would fail in helping with his problem anyway.

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Pornography Addiction amongst Muslims, stories and tips:

http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/19/pornog...s-stories-tips/

So clearly it still happens after marriage for some people, it is sad to read about the wife's POV. :(

(bismillah) (salam)

I hope my family members dont check my history and see this link, they might think I have a "problem" to..

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^^you mean kind of like if one is a poor man and a thief if one gives him any charity he may not stop this sin because something psychological about taking from others w/out their permission is what he prefers. so with this thinking of yours one may stop giving charity to poor because many as we know steal despite having riches afterwards and continue to do so.

Edited by gogiison2
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^^you mean kind of like if one is a poor man and a thief if one gives him any charity he may not stop this sin because something psychological about taking from others w/out their permission is what he prefers. so with this thinking of yours one may stop giving charity because many as we know steal despite having riches.

Of course a thief isn't going to stop stealing just because he receives charity, and it would be stupid to give a thief charity in the first place, whether he is poor or rich. If you want to give charity, seek an orphan, a poor pious Muslim, a hungry child, etc, and give to them instead of giving to a thief. You don't stop giving charity all together because it is in a thief's nature to steal and take advantage of others. That's just stupid.

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^ in a lecture by sayed ammar it said something like Imam Ali gave a thief money, a prostitute money and i forget the 3rd person. maybe the poor man turned to theft to make ends meet, not that it's justified at all but something charity can indeed cure. the point i was trying to make is these people that you mentioned who marry and continue viewing pornography usually make this "habit" before ever being married and i think we could agree that they may've waited too long to get married in the first place as the case w/ this sister's younger brother. so, i'd agree w/ the marjas on this absolutely.

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^ in a lecture by sayed ammar it said something like Imam Ali gave a thief money, a prostitute money and i forget the 3rd person. maybe the poor man turned to theft to make ends meet, not that it's justified at all but something charity can indeed cure. the point i was trying to make is these people that you mentioned who marry and continue viewing pornography usually make this "habit" before ever being married and i think we could agree that they may've waited too long to get married in the first place as the case w/ this sister's younger brother. so, i'd agree w/ the marjas on this absolutely.

We don't agree. A thief is not more deserving of charity than an orphan or a hungry child.

As for your second point, kids can develop these habits as early as they hit puberty and throughout their teen years. Advocating marriage for children that young, so they can avoid sin, is absolutely foolish. Furthermore, presenting marriage as a perscription for a person who has already developed such bad habits fails to address the causes and issues surrounding the habit itself. On both accounts, marriage is not a solution. I'll re-iterate that Ulama are not presenting this judgment on any sound jurisprudential basis that I am aware of. They are being presumptuous about issues that they are, quite honestly, not qualified to pontificate on. They are not medical doctors, nor psychologists, nor behavioral experts, nor trained in any capacity on how to help people overcome addictions.

Here's a better analogy than your thief example, and one which illustrates my point quite effectively. Take smoking for example. People who are addicted to smoking cigarettes cannot substitute the habit of smoking by wearing a nicotine patch. A nicotine patch may address their chemical addiction to nicotine, but it completely fails to address the psychological and behavioral elements of their addiction, which really are more powerful and persistent than the addictive affects of nicotine. A person who hasn't smoked in months may overcome his chemical urge for nicotine, but the satisfaction he attains from the behavioral aspects of sticking a cigarette in his mouth, bearing it to a flame, taking a drag on it, inhaling and exhaling the smoke, feeling it go through his lungs, tasting and smelling it, visually seeing the smoke release around him, etc, will all remain with him, as will the psychological void that he is left with, as many smokers fall on this habit due to stress, after eating a large meal, with a cup of coffee or a cool drink, at specific intervals during the day, etc.

In the same way, having intercourse will only temporarily address a chemical urge. But just like you can't wear a nicotine patch every second of every day for the rest of your life, you can't have intercourse every time the psychological and behavioral aspects of your habit addiction are present. It just isn't feasible. Furthermore, intercourse will not address any of the psychological and behavioral elements of such addictions or bah habits. This is why intercourse is not a remedy or solution. It does not address the problem, just like nicotine doesn't address the problem. In fact, in the same way a nicotine patch may sometimes actually prolong an addiction, having intercourse may exacerbate the bad habits as well.

Edited by Learned
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