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In the Name of God بسم الله

Secularism (The West) versus Islam

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Guest JacobM

Let's have a discussion on why Islam and secularism are incompatible. I do believe the political conflicts of the Middle East with the West are really the battleground over a conflict of religious thought. It's the West (secularism, materialism, capitalism) versus Islam. Secularism is a religious thought by instilling a specific way of life and values.

I'll start with the words of my brother:

Concerning the secularists:

They will only accept Islam and Muslims if you change Islam. Islam as it is, based on the Quran and Hadith and not flexible to suit the whims of the time, is not acceptable to them. Religion for them should only reinforce their secular humanist values. If Islam has a greater influence over the people than their modernist thought, and is not reformed to their liking, then Islam is seen by them as something that holds the people back from progressing.

Islam as it is, and as it always has been understood, contradicts all of the major values of the secular humanist left. We are patriarchal and have well-defined gender roles and they do not believe in traditional maleness or gender roles. We believe the Earth and every creature and human was created by Allah and they believe it all to be a fluke of science. We believe what is right and wrong was brought by the Prophets and they believe they are the prophets and are far wiser than them.

Just as the right fears the growth of Islam, so does the left. Their weapons are not missiles and bullets though. Their weapons are abortion clinics, International Planned Parenthood centers throughout the Muslim World to curb the population growth of Muslims, the promotion of homosexuality which will further curb population growth, university educations teaching un-Islamic values, international feminist organizations trying to pry Muslim women away from the hadith, the funding of "reformed" Muslim groups, and a hostility towards public displays of faith, satellite television, Hollywood, pop music and more. All of this is nothing more than a "Soft Crusade" by liberals.

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Always beware of people peddling simple answers. Things are never really black and white, just many shades of grey.

As a christian I could do without abortion, drugs, homosexuality but am I prepared live with morality police on every corner like Iran and Saudia Arabia ??? Hell no. Man that would suck

I love heavy metal. I listen to it, I play it. Some people at my church talk smack about me. I don't care. I don't think it makes me a bad person. I just couldn't imagine living in a society where people could stop me for doing that.

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One of the great difference west brings from religion is "individualism" or the concept of 'I'. This concept tends to stop the moral development in families and eventually societies.

In Muslim countries like Iran majority of people follow Islam and they are happy with their moral values. However the western influence has been penetrating since early 19th century which was the time west was in peak of their so called power.

Now with the fall of capitalism which was the backbone of western ideology, there is nothing left except hollow bodies and empty spirits. Artificiality has taken over them from every angle of life which includes music, hollywood, bank loans, degrading women, racism, adventurism, wars and much more.

The indicators are showing that the western people are now coming back to their natural instincts which is in divinity and God. That is where all get peace and tranquility.

I pray peace prevails over the world and as President Ahmedinejad says we are waiting for our savior by preparing grounds for his arrival. The time is near when the whole world will be one and no races will remain. Normal people will live life happily and the evil shall perish.

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One of the great difference west brings from religion is "individualism" or the concept of 'I'. This concept tends to stop the moral development in families and eventually societies.

In Muslim countries like Iran majority of people follow Islam and they are happy with their moral values. However the western influence has been penetrating since early 19th century which was the time west was in peak of their so called power.

Now with the fall of capitalism which was the backbone of western ideology, there is nothing left except hollow bodies and empty spirits. Artificiality has taken over them from every angle of life which includes music, hollywood, bank loans, degrading women, racism, adventurism, wars and much more.

The indicators are showing that the western people are now coming back to their natural instincts which is in divinity and God. That is where all get peace and tranquility.

I pray peace prevails over the world and as President Ahmedinejad says we are waiting for our savior by preparing grounds for his arrival. The time is near when the whole world will be one and no races will remain. Normal people will live life happily and the evil shall perish.

ROFL

I have people like you at my church . They either look down apon everyone or feel sorry them for. I love the part about how our bodies are hollow and empty. Its makes about as much sense as telling every muslim on the board they are repressed because they follow Islam. You self rightous assclown.

FYI, Capitalism isn't a failure. Only unbridled capitalism is. The only thing that has really changed is we are going to have to live within our means now, which isn't a bad thing. No more 5000 sq.ft homes on 12 dollars an hour.

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ROFL

I have people like you at my church . They either look down apon everyone or feel sorry them for. I love the part about how our bodies are hollow and empty. Its makes about as much sense as telling every muslim on the board they are repressed because they follow Islam. You self rightous assclown.

FYI, Capitalism isn't a failure. Only unbridled capitalism is. The only thing that has really changed is we are going to have to live within our means now, which isn't a bad thing. No more 5000 sq.ft homes on 12 dollars an hour.

Sorry if you felt I am targeting you in person. My address is universal, so yes the truth is beyond dollars, houses and fun.

It is the peace within, Try it some time, by helping helpless, by feeding poor, by giving a shoulder to old....will come to know the true happiness....

Whats happening to capitalism is not my view. See what the top economists are saying, and if you are living within your means that is anti-capitalism my dear. So, living by sharing is the solution and thats what Islam and other true divine religions say.

Peace shall prevail!

I dont know but I'd rather live in secular country than country that implements Wilayah Al Faqih

:!!!:

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Sorry if you felt I am targeting you in person. My address is universal, so yes the truth is beyond dollars, houses and fun.

It is the peace within, Try it some time, by helping helpless, by feeding poor, by giving a shoulder to old....will come to know the true happiness....

Whats happening to capitalism is not my view. See what the top economists are saying, and if you are living within your means that is anti-capitalism my dear. So, living by sharing is the solution and thats what Islam and other true divine religions say.

Peace shall prevail!

:!!!:

If all muslims followed the five pillars of Islam and all christians lived the example of Christ , this world would have no problems.

Its just not that simple. Men twist and manipulate religion for there own personal agendas. Its just the way it is and its always will be.

Look to goverment to pave roads, build schools, run the economy. Keep it out of your spiritual life.

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If all muslims followed the five pillars of Islam and all christians lived the example of Christ , this world would have no problems.

Its just not that simple. Men twist and manipulate religion for there own personal agendas. Its just the way it is and its always will be.

Look to goverment to pave roads, build schools, run the economy. Keep it out of your spiritual life.

I agree to your 1st part as we need to follow the religion in the true essence not what is apparent to us. For example the so called extremist Muslims and mercenary Christians in Iraq following zionist theory are not the best example to follow.

My dear most of the governments are nothing except bunch of conspirators making fool of their own people. Steeling their money in the name of tax and giving them modern slavery where every single human is working like a machine for whom?

Of course not for themselves as they get nothing what they work for...

I take it as an animal who runs who day in a circle and remains at the same place regardless of his efforts.

Think...

Spiritual progress is the only factory which can bring revolution and thats where humanity is lacking......

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JacobM wrote: Let's have a discussion on why Islam and secularism are incompatible.

Your statement is too imprecise. Ismailies and Ahmadiyas, for example, are two groups of muslims who don't believe Islam is incompatible with secularism. I think what you meant to write was:

Let's have a discussion on why Sunni and Twelver Shiite muslims think Islam and secularism are incompatible.

Interestingly...

Most Christians believe that Christianity and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Buddhists believe that Buddhism and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Hindus believe that Hinduism and secularism are compatible with each other.

and so on.

The problem seems to be with Sunnis and Twelvers, and not with secularism.

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JacobM wrote: Let's have a discussion on why Islam and secularism are incompatible.

Your statement is too imprecise. Ismailies and Ahmadiyas, for example, are two groups of muslims who don't believe Islam is incompatible with secularism. I think what you meant to write was:

Let's have a discussion on why Sunni and Twelver Shiite muslims think Islam and secularism are incompatible.

Interestingly...

Most Christians believe that Christianity and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Buddhists believe that Buddhism and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Hindus believe that Hinduism and secularism are compatible with each other.

and so on.

The problem seems to be with Sunnis and Twelvers, and not with secularism.

I am not sure are we allowed to start another topic within a topic.

Anyways I leave a notion here to ponder.... Whether secularism helps social growth while studying history of human being?

you would say another topic....if thats the case leave it to the original one :)

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American interventionism in places like the Middle East is hardly a battle of secularism versus Islam. The West isn't basing its intervention policies on metaphysical principles. Simply put, the United States has interests in the Middle East. It's a matter of geopolitics; American intervention is very materialistic in nature and is driven by economic and military aspirations. Now, I will grant that American interventionism has attempted to introduce secular, individualistic and "democratic" norms and ideals, but this is merely a mechanism used to secure American interests abroad. This is very different from Crusading.

Just take a look at the Middle East. The US toppled Iran's government in favour of a dictator, something antithesis to Western "secularism." The US is also funding Egyptian Ba'athists to the tone of $2.3 billion per year. Now you may say that the Ba'athists are secular, but you cannot deny their totalitarian apparatus. This once again conflicts with Western standards. Saddam Hussein was another tyrant supported by the West. In addition, the puritanical ideology of Salafism is aided and abetted by Western countries. As we've seen numerous times, Salafism is antithesis to Western norms and values. My point? This isn't a metaphysical war. This is a battle of interest. Back home the United States draws on the parallels of good versus evil because it works. But if you were to analyze America's role in the Muslim world you will understand its true intentions. In some regions they will support the Shi'a over the Sunni, whereas in other regions they will support the Sunni over the Shi'a.

Nevertheless, Western intervention in Muslim lands is deceptive, harmful and must be eradicated. I am in no way congratulating or supporting American intervention in Muslim lands. I will not deny that there is an inherent tension between Western secularism and Islamic norms and customs, but this is a bigger issue in Western countries with Muslims who do not wish assimilate.

Edited by asphyxiated
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Your statement is too imprecise. Ismailies and Ahmadiyas, for example, are two groups of muslims who don't believe Islam is incompatible with secularism. I think what you meant to write was:

Ismailis and Ahmadiyas are whole other subject matter. However, I believe that ismailis and ahmadiyas are nearly outside the fold of islam. Let's not discuss sectarian differences.

Most Christians believe that Christianity and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Christians have abandoned the teachings of Christ. Fact: Christianity is a faith infused with love. If you look at early christian history, as compared to the present history, Christianity has abandoned God. Have you read the book "The Imitation of Christ"? Most Christians no longer imitate christ in their daily lives.

Most Buddhists believe that Buddhism and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Buddhists don't follow the teachings of Buddha. I'm pretty sure a monk (which represent a slim number of Buddhists) isn't secular by any standards. Self-immolation tends to violate secular norms, don't you think?

Most Hindus believe that Hinduism and secularism are compatible with each other.

Most Hindus worship idols.

and so on.

Let this post serve as a testimony to everyone here that Christians have abandoned God. When you have to resort to defending secularism based on the actions of polytheists, your erroneous ways become egregious. Regardless of what dogma you believe Jesus (as) purported to say, the man taught that a believer should live a life solely for God. He did not teach Christians to turn the cross into a fashion statement, burn people at the stake who disagree with you, drop nuclear bombs on foreign nations, or institutionalize a faith when he himself was rebelling against the institution of the time.

The problem seems to be with Sunnis and Twelvers, and not with secularism.

The problem seems to be with people who wish to love God with all their hearts and mind. We believers dedicate our lives solely to the will of God and wish to submit to him in every action we do in life. We muslims understand that if one truly loves god than your entire way of life will act in accordance with his law. The problem with many Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists is you think faith is defined by some dogmatic creed.

Faith is not defined by dogma but is rather a living lifestyle in which the inward intentions of your soul are manifested towards the world.

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JacobM wrote: Let's have a discussion on why Islam and secularism are incompatible.

Your statement is too imprecise. Ismailies and Ahmadiyas, for example, are two groups of muslims who don't believe Islam is incompatible with secularism. I think what you meant to write was:

Let's have a discussion on why Sunni and Twelver Shiite muslims think Islam and secularism are incompatible.

I won't comment on the rest of your post but this rephrasing or reformulation of the question is simply spot on. Excellently put. Kudos.

By the way, not all are the same. I am a secular democrat. I am a Twelver too. People have their reasons and I know it.

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Rebutting the assertion that Christianity is fine with secularism:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/nation...secularism.html

"If anybody still had any questions about why Pope Benedict XVI came to America, the answer should have been made clear yesterday, the second day of his U. S. tour. The pontiff, who turned 81 yesterday, came to teach. And the core of his message, it should now be equally clear, is a vigorous defense of faith in an increasingly secular world."

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Most Christians have abandoned the teachings of Christ. Fact: Christianity is a faith infused with love. If you look at early christian history, as compared to the present history, Christianity has abandoned God. Have you read the book "The Imitation of Christ"? Most Christians no longer imitate christ in their daily lives.

JacobM bro, tell me what do you want Christians to do. Go back to the Middle Ages, get obsessed with doctrinal purity and start witch hunting again? Or do you want a replay of Spanish Inquisition or what? It was the time perhaps Christians were 'more religious' than they are now. Did you see what the absence of secularism did then? Do Taliban remind you of something? Does Shia papacy in Persia remind you of anything?

Everyone, anyone, Muslim, Christian or whoever is more than welcomed to practice their faith and be religious. It is just when you step on other peoples' feet, secularism steps on yours and protects them. It protects you when others try to mess up with you. This is its beauty - and that is what you enjoy there in the US. :D

Edited by Marbles
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Its no real secret that only maybe 2% of the people that are called Christian in the world are actually christian. Like calling George Bush a christian ( ha ha ha )

Then again if a country like Afghanistan or Pakistan only has a literacy rate of 40%, how many of them are really muslims ?

With so few people really knowing the faith , do we really want people in office with a religious agenda ?? Especially if they don't even understand the a faith.

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Rebutting the assertion that Christianity is fine with secularism:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/nation...secularism.html

"If anybody still had any questions about why Pope Benedict XVI came to America, the answer should have been made clear yesterday, the second day of his U. S. tour. The pontiff, who turned 81 yesterday, came to teach. And the core of his message, it should now be equally clear, is a vigorous defense of faith in an increasingly secular world."

Christians are concerned not about secularism but godlessness. Both have come to be wrongly equated. They are two distinct phenomena. Europe is secular as well as godless. This perplexes the pious Pope. He is not arguing for the implementation of blasphemy laws. Pope doesn't either want to enforce 'doctrinal purity'. He is up against godlessness which is a good thing, in a way though. . .

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I have been at several bible studies where we have discussed Christianity vs. Canadian law. The basic consensus we reached is that, so long as Canadian Christians are not forced by Canadian law to sin, then it is our duty to follow Canadian law ("give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...").

For example, speaking on behalf of the denomination "Lutheran Church Canada", I can state that:

- we are against gay marriage, but Canadian law doesn't force us to acknowledge gay marriages or to perform gay marriages

- we are against sex outside of marriage, but there are no laws forcing us to engage in sex outside of marriage

- we are against abortion, but no one is forcing us to perform abortions.

Basically, Canada's secular laws permits Lutherans to live the life they want to live. Therefore, we support Canada's legal system, even though we don't agree with all of Canada's laws. In particular, we agree (for the most part) that we shouldn't try to enforce morality (e.g., punishment of adulterers) through Canada's legal system.

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Spirituality and secularism are generally incompatible. A spiritual society may be religiously tolerant but share certain core values (such as respect for worship, respect for religious values, respect for adhering to religious traditions). However, secular society does not just leave religion alone; rather, it imposes its own 'religon' of secularism intended to replace religion.

I see this more an issue in the West than in the Middle East. I have come to think that America is a much less secular society that I once thought (although secularism still exists in the religious rainbow). However, I have come to feel that some European countries are extremely secular, and, due to this secularism, both the human soul and also moral values are suffering.

The reason why I say this is, essentially, the Middle East is not a secular place; even though some people have pushed secular ideologies, God is still a major part of the shared history, language, and culture.

Its no real secret that only maybe 2% of the people that are called Christian in the world are actually christian. Like calling George Bush a christian ( ha ha ha )

Then again if a country like Afghanistan or Pakistan only has a literacy rate of 40%, how many of them are really muslims ?

With so few people really knowing the faith , do we really want people in office with a religious agenda ?? Especially if they don't even understand the a faith.

Well, you don't need to be literate to understand and believe in God, or to acknowledge that He sent prophets who gave us valuable spiritual, ethical, and social teachings. For ages, cultures have passed on these religious teachings in non-written ways for the vast majority of illiterate people (through the spoken word, plays, stories, art, sacred music, customs, etc). Literacy is not essential for spirituality or morality.

Otherwise, it would not be fair for people who have had the gift of schooling to stand before God with an unfair advantage.

However, of course, from an Islamic perspective, literacy is a very desirable thing, and the Prophet Muhammad (S) went to considerable efforts to promote a culture of literacy in his community.

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Ismailis and Ahmadiyas are whole other subject matter. However, I believe that ismailis and ahmadiyas are nearly outside the fold of islam. Let's not discuss sectarian differences.

Most Christians have abandoned the teachings of Christ. Fact: Christianity is a faith infused with love. If you look at early christian history, as compared to the present history, Christianity has abandoned God. Have you read the book "The Imitation of Christ"? Most Christians no longer imitate christ in their daily lives.

Most Buddhists don't follow the teachings of Buddha. I'm pretty sure a monk (which represent a slim number of Buddhists) isn't secular by any standards. Self-immolation tends to violate secular norms, don't you think?

Most Hindus worship idols.

Let this post serve as a testimony to everyone here that Christians have abandoned God. When you have to resort to defending secularism based on the actions of polytheists, your erroneous ways become egregious. Regardless of what dogma you believe Jesus (as) purported to say, the man taught that a believer should live a life solely for God. He did not teach Christians to turn the cross into a fashion statement, burn people at the stake who disagree with you, drop nuclear bombs on foreign nations, or institutionalize a faith when he himself was rebelling against the institution of the time.

The problem seems to be with people who wish to love God with all their hearts and mind. We believers dedicate our lives solely to the will of God and wish to submit to him in every action we do in life. We muslims understand that if one truly loves god than your entire way of life will act in accordance with his law. The problem with many Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists is you think faith is defined by some dogmatic creed.

Faith is not defined by dogma but is rather a living lifestyle in which the inward intentions of your soul are manifested towards the world.

786-92-110

As you put it clearly Bro JacobM- and i am Speaking to you exclusively- let me add the following:

The Secularists Western Democrazies which abolished Theological and monarchial rules in England and France, did all their best in Fabricating a JEWISH STATE in Palestinian arab lands and they still defend the JEWISH STATE existence by any oppressive means Necessary, Which Secularism are they talking about ??? is a JEWISH STATE a Secular one ? if so, then Why not an ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN? the BOSCH repeated it at the Knesset someday; "... Isra-hellis are GOD elected..." Share-Causy and Merkel followed later; let them fool the ignorants...

"...It is the rising For Allah which made ibraheem khalilul rahman (as) achieve the position of frienship and liberated him from the various manifestations of the world of nature...it is the rising for Allah which dominated musa (as) over the followers of pharoah with only one stick it is the rising for Allah which made the last prophet dominate single-handedly all the pagan customs and traditions and he could remove the idols from the house of Allah so as to replace them with piety and the oneness of Allah... selfishness and abandonment of rising for Allah has dragged us to this miserable condition and al the world dominated over us and islamic countries were subjected to other's influence ( secularism e.g) ...soon shall a group of libertine and sensuous persons dominate you and all your honour and dignity shall be exposed to their vicious desires...The Stubborn irreligious people got up and started propagating for impiety. Soon they shall overpower you all, who are suffering from the discord, in such a manner that the time will become difficult for you. And whosoever leaves his house, migrates towards Allah and his prophet and in this condition he dies, his reward lies with Allah. -Ruhullah Al musawi khomeyni, ( 7 march 1944) ( Kayhan N° 10613 dated 25 dey, 1357 SH)"

Wa Salaam

Edited by mohalamine
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Sometimes I am astonished at how much the young people at this site know about esoteric matters:

For Instance JacobM is an expert on the ME and the West plus a soon to be lawyer. Allyaam is an authority on Western civilization and an economist.

Drew has impeccable knowledge of Christianity, hr must have studied it for forty years. Mohalomine must have a degree in theology.

As for me I have opinions and some education plus life experience as I am a fossil.

It is my opinion that the war in the Middle East is a breakdown of diplomacy. When talks breakdown and coercion fails governments use their militaries, however there were no deals that would have satisfied foolish Bush because he wanted war. The fact that Iraq was a Muslim nation had nothing to do with it.

Secularism and individualism practically go hand in hand but in the New World I think individualism came first. The folks who came here came for many reasons: some came to escape religious persecutions. The Calverts who settled and chartered the former colony of Maryland where I live were Catholic and suffered much in England after Anglican church became the state religion. Others came to start a new life in a new world where there were no peasants and less of a social caste system. Then there were others who came to make money and return to Europe. What the majority were is people of sturdy stock who carved a home out of wilderness who had to do everything themselves like clear land, build a home, hunt etc etc. These people had to be rugged individualist or they would not have survived. They took care of their own spiritual needs and on a semi regular basis preacher came as circuit riders and performed rites needed like baptism and such.

When we were independent and wrote the Constitution having experienced state religions and their repression we included a stipulation that no laws would be made regarding religion. This meant no laws promoting or against religion. So we had a secular government which played no part in religion and religious citizens for the most part where individual rights are protected not granted because we consider our right inalienable. Now we are a nation with more places of worship per capita than any other. The notion that individualism stops moral development is absurd, but what it does is keep everyone from marching in lockstep. BTW aren't we lucky to have Drew here to tell us who is and who isn't a Christian. I quote "Its no real secret that only maybe 2% of the people that are called Christian in the world are actually christian. Like calling George Bush a christian ( ha ha ha )"

Allyaan said something about the collapse of capitalism I see no signs of that. Without capitalism a people would not invest monies and expect a financial reward. People would not invest venture capital on new business and products which make life better and create jobs. I have seen no predictions of the end of capitalism. I guess there may be two or three nations that are not capitalist but they sure do reap the benefits.

I almost failed to mention JacobM must have a doctorate in theology for the pronouncements on the major religions of the world. Imagine having all this knowledge in just a few years.

Peace

Satyaban

Edited by satyaban
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American interventionism in places like the Middle East is hardly a battle of secularism versus Islam. The West isn't basing its intervention policies on metaphysical principles. Simply put, the United States has interests in the Middle East. It's a matter of geopolitics; American intervention is very materialistic in nature and is driven by economic and military aspirations. Now, I will grant that American interventionism has attempted to introduce secular, individualistic and "democratic" norms and ideals, but this is merely a mechanism used to secure American interests abroad. This is very different from Crusading.

Just take a look at the Middle East. The US toppled Iran's government in favour of a dictator, something antithesis to Western "secularism." The US is also funding Egyptian Ba'athists to the tone of $2.3 billion per year. Now you may say that the Ba'athists are secular, but you cannot deny their totalitarian apparatus. This once again conflicts with Western standards. Saddam Hussein was another tyrant supported by the West. In addition, the puritanical ideology of Salafism is aided and abetted by Western countries. As we've seen numerous times, Salafism is antithesis to Western norms and values. My point? This isn't a metaphysical war. This is a battle of interest. Back home the United States draws on the parallels of good versus evil because it works. But if you were to analyze America's role in the Muslim world you will understand its true intentions. In some regions they will support the Shi'a over the Sunni, whereas in other regions they will support the Sunni over the Shi'a.

Nevertheless, Western intervention in Muslim lands is deceptive, harmful and must be eradicated. I am in no way congratulating or supporting American intervention in Muslim lands. I will not deny that there is an inherent tension between Western secularism and Islamic norms and customs, but this is a bigger issue in Western countries with Muslims who do not wish assimilate.

Great post!!

And honestly, between an Islamic state run by intolerant wackjobs vs a secular government that will defend my rights and allow me to practice whatever faith I want without worry, yeah I'd rather live under the latter.

Do you want Islamic law in a country like Pakistan? A country with an abysmal literacy rate and an intolerant minority that takes no shame in subjugating Shi'as and Christians? Sorry but I wouldn't want to live under Mullah Umar or Beitullah Masoud.

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Sometimes I am astonished at how much the young people at this site know about esoteric matters:

For Instance JacobM is an expert on the ME and the West plus a soon to be lawyer.

That's if I pass the bar. haha

I almost failed to mention JacobM must have a doctorate in theology for the pronouncements on the major religions of the world. Imagine having all this knowledge in just a few years.

Thank you for the flattery my little hindu. :)

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