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In the Name of God بسم الله

Logical proof for Wilayatal Faqih

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truth be told this is what I love the most about the pakistani people i have met. You should get to know some of them as people.

Sis you really need to do some reading on Weber and Hofstede. :rolleyes:

Anyways just saw that brother's message about the video in your signature. OHHHHH it is Seraiki dohray. You like them hmm? It is even more of a surprise knowing that you are white American convert. The reason for my enthusiasm? I am a native Seraiki speaker and come from a background with rich tradition of dohra/marsiyah writers and reciters. :)

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Apparently, we have some new gentlemen to take up the role. :rolleyes:

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OHHH I love them, send me any and all you have on MP3, they are the absolute most beautiful brother, truely truely they are......:)

ill send you my mail

Grrrreeat to know you love Seraiki dohray. Yeah the language is so sweet. Many non-Seraikis like Seraiki dohray and elegies. Ahhh I am afraid I have hardly anything in digital format to share with you :( I know you'd be surprised. My collection, my books, my everything sits in the cupboard back home in Pakistan. I live in the UK alone and like a nomad. I miss home. . .

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Did Imam Al-Hujjah (ajt) stop being Saahebul Amr? Is he no longer Ulel Amre Menkom (4:59)?

No he's (as) top authority, and Fuqaha are his proofs. By you need government and practical leadership.

It's either anarchy or Islamic government or Taghootic government.

Islamic government authority is based on God's authority...

So whom did Imam MAhdi (as) make his proofs...

To take Imam Mahdi (as) as Master of our affairs, do we follows his proofs or people whom obedience has nothing to do with obeying Ahlulbayt (as)...

Khomeini (qas) understands Islam in the people's eyes, his political views are the Islamic view... Whom should they obey then, a person whom they see following to be linked to following proper Islam or the Shah whom has no link to Islam...

Did Ahlulbayt (as) want us to take as authorities whom...? We can't have anarchy...

So there's need to be practical authority....

The Authority of Ahlulbayt (as) continues.. we aren't suppose to take Taghoots as authorities, neither are we suppose to have anarchy.

Edited by Awakened
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To take Imam Mahdi (as) as Master of our affairs, do we follows his proofs or people whom obedience has nothing to do with obeying Ahlulbayt (as) ...

Saahebul Amr does not mean 'Master of our affairs'. Saahebul Amr means master of the affairs. Please don't confuse yourself, Imam (ajt) is master of affairs whether we follow him or not, just like all previous Imams were. I'd appreciate it if you don't mix things up, I wanted to see Hasan_Sajjad's explanation of 'Allah (swt) has NOT sealed Wilayah'.

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Saahebul Amr does not mean 'Master of our affairs'. Saahebul Amr means master of the affairs. Please don't confuse yourself, Imam (ajt) is master of affairs whether we follow him or not, just like all previous Imams were. I'd appreciate it if you don't mix things up, I wanted to see Hasan_Sajjad's explanation of 'Allah (swt) has NOT sealed Wilayah'.

I wasn't think of what Saahebul Amr meant when I posted that.

The question is to take none but Allah (swt) as Master, which is taking none but Imam Mahdi (as) as Master, do we take for our affairs people whom obedience is linked to obeying God and Ahlulbayt (as) or people unlinked to that. Do we take whom Imam Mahdi (as) said are his proofs, or do we take people whom have nothing to do with following Islam.

Because either way, society is going to have authority. No society is going to function with anarchy. The question is whether the authority get's legitimacy from God or not. There needed to be legitimacy from God during Ghayba because we been commanded to Reject the Taghoot.

Furthermore we been commanded to rule by revelation in Quran. These commands are there to follow now as well, not just mean for 250 years.....and then not to be followed until victory of the Imam (as).

Some people think if the society of Iran kept taking the Shah, then Imam Mahdi (as) Mastership would not be compromised. But I see as the opposite. It's taking the Shah as authority that is rejecting Imam MAhdi (as) authority while taking a person whom follows Imam Mahdi (as) like Khomeini (qas) is taking Imam Mahdi (as) as authority.

People have things backward. Not to follow his proofs as authorities - is to give that seat to other then his proofs, which is what really undermines his authority.

Edited by Awakened
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^ Again, you're mixing Haakim with Wali. Please understand the correct terminology before you draw conclusions because you will confuse yourself.

I'm not mixing up anything. I am not thinking of Haakim or Wali. I'm simply talking concepts. It's seems your the one who is confused.

Authority is authority no matter what you call it.... Mulk, Sulta, Wilayah, Hukm, Amr, it means the same thing.

Edited by Awakened
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Authority is authority no matter what you call it.... Mulk, Sulta, Wilayah, Hukm, Amr, it means the same thing.

^ There lies your confusion. You're grabbing a whole bunch of words with different meanings and throwing them into one basket. It's like saying boss, manager, director, leader, officer, father and governor all mean the same thing!

Edited by ~Sajjad~
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You can't discuss concepts without using terminology :)

Mulk, Hukm, Wilayah, Amr, all refer to the same thing in Quran.

It's all about authority at the end no matter what you call it.

If people went to get Hukim of non-Muslim judge, this would be said to be taken Taghoot as Ruler, and we told not to take Awliya (Authorities) of Ahlul-Kitab.. while referring to them as judges would be that...because we taking their judgment as authority on us.

Part of taking Imams (as) as Sole Authorities during their times was to refer judgments to Shia Scholars...

Now US is taken as Authorities in most Arab places... indirectly but still, as authorities....

This is all condemned... but people don't condemn that as taken the position of Imam Mahdi (as), they rather condemn an Islamic government as doing that. They got everything back wards. They're very similar to those whom believed in the Jibt and Taghoot out of jealousy to certain people whom Allah (swt) graced (ahlulbayt (as)).

Today the jealousy is to Awliya and people support Taghoot over believers in the same way it's been condemned in Quran.

Edited by Awakened
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^ There lies your confusion. You're grabbing a whole bunch of words with different meanings and throwing them into one basket. It's like saying boss, manager, director, leader, officer, father and governor all mean the same thing!

No one could have put it any better. Great!

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Hassan_Sajjad, I will respect your ideas and drop the subject from now on.

1. I understand very well what you are saying. And cos I know what you are saying I also know that your interpretations are completely shallow and naive. Remember how Hitler manipulated Nietzsche's Ubermensch (Superman) to justify his theory of racial purity? Remember how Darwin's idea of Evolution was butchered in the form of 'Social Darwinism' in Fascist Germany? It is these kind of interpretations on the basis of which - without having any speakable contact with Pakistanis - you are jumping on conclusions that can at best be called naive and prejudiced and at worst inherently racist.

This is not how social sciences works clearly, and your comparison is quite shallow and void of any real knowledge on the subject. It shows you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. It is absolutely ignorant to compare a populist german leader to people who make a comparison of cultures which is done by just about EVERY important social scientist. It is quite time consuming and pathetic when you ask a question like "Who decides which cultures are superior? huh? Max Weber?". This reaction would be acceptable for a twelve year old child, but to answer your question, YES. Social scientists always determine with quantitative and qualitative research which cultures are more developed and which are not. Also your strange urge to tell me you are not really a Pakistani from the UK but are a student in the UK from Pakistan has nothing to do with the way sociologists explain cultures. Please actually start READING a book by Weber, Hofstede and before you tell me you are familiar with all of them. You obviously are not. You glued an entire wikipedian reply together based on the names I intentionally gave you as a reference. It is quite sad how you also tried to look up Hofstede's name, but did not have sufficient time to read up on him before making a reply, making your argument look weak and faulty. You make quite a wild claim that he does not deal with any siperiority or inferiority within cultures. Obviously you couldn't find that on google. But they are clearly mentioned in his research. Please stop fooling yourself, sometimes Google and Wikipedia simply DO NOT WORK in discussions. Tough luck.

You think that they are uneducated idiot cavemen.

That's not very nice, What a very specific attempt to describe yourself after totally failing to understand any discussion about science and scientific ideas. Sticking to your conventional road of sarcastic remarks about Hofstede and WF seems to work more in your advantage than to talk about subjects with critical thinking and maturity, that simply isn't for you. When you really have nothing useful or smart to say from the beginning (not your regular copy and paste mindset), with regards to a complex political theory like WF, there is really nothing left for you to do than than to "hang around". Any empty head can simply come and reject WF and say they have discussed it so many times and that it is old, how they are so experienced but don't agree with it etc. and then agree with copy and paste material without any form of critical thinking. Although this might be very convenient and acceptable for you, however some people are having a very serious and mature discussion and would like to know what is true and what is not.

Edited by Rubaiyat
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there is an ayat which states "we have given you intellect so that you may dinstinguish truth from falsehood" so we are allowed to use intellect BUT it has to be subserviant to TRUTH which is Aimma (as) the illuminated guides, the rasikhoona fil ilm (those firmly rooted in knowledge), because it is by ilm that you distinguish things so if They (as) are firmly rooted in knowledge, i.e are the wellsprings of knowledge then it is by the knowledge they give us that we can ascertain truth and falsehood, thus far in this thread, no one is doing this, everyone is full of their own opinion yet no one is willing to look to see is the Aimmah (as) have allowed this. I suggest if we are going to continue this discussion we actually start providing the necessary proofs for such an Islamic governance (governing all shias regardless of location) with a fallible human at its head and not the Imam (atfs)

Edited by zainab_
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there is a saying of maula ali(as) that you get the kind of leaders like yourselves.

we have two criminals at the helm of our affairs.

my pakistani brothers/sisters kindly do not work for the fitnah mongers, do not be a tool in their hands.

brother satyanas, the inherently racist and arrogant are the anti revolution brigade.

like shia engineer said shias should be hailing rather than bringing down their own shias.

can't you guys see the pseudo akhbari pakistani fitnah. think calmly about the whole.

i don't for a second believe that any pakistani brother or sister of mine is causing fitnah intentionally.

i am a pakistani myself.

but

the seed of pseudo pakistani brand of akhbarism, i am willing to bet my bottom dollar that the majority if not all

of the proponents(brothers and sister) are pakistanis.

let us not make a joke of pakistanis in the wider world and let us not become a tool for shaitan,

enough of pakistanis, back to the thread.

Haideriam, are you saying that anybody who doesnt believe in WF is a "pseudo akhabari pakistani fitna monger"??

I find your comment distrubing and derogatory as a non akhbari fitna mongering pakistani who does not believe in WF.

Not supporting WF in Iran is simply not supporting a political entity that happens to be shia. It is not opposing shias.

For you to equate the two shows your biased nationalistic perspective.

Ali Ali

(bismillah)

(salam)

no, i am not saying that. beliefs are your own oersonal matters.

to voice non constructive criticism harking on the venomous is unfair and not manly.

it is not just, and Allah(swt) does not guide a people who are unjust.

your last couple of lines will make more sense to you once you look at it more fairly.

(wasalam)

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aw damn, you guys figured me out. im anti the rule of the pope king WF, so you figured out that i must be an iran hating, fitnah mongering, akhbari CIA agent secret spy monitoring this board out to mislead everyone and destroy the religion of the prophet. astute.

hes not MY bloody wali e amr e jahan or whatever its called. if that makes me apostate..well...i dont actually give a toss.

Edited by maula dha mallang
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Wow, is it hot in here or what?

But Rubaiyat seems to have a solid understanding of the subject, so i ask you sir to name a few references from which i can gain a better idea of a subject i admittedly know very little about.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

no, i am not saying that. beliefs are your own oersonal matters.

to voice non constructive criticism harking on the venomous is unfair and not manly.

it is not just, and Allah(swt) does not guide a people who are unjust.

your last couple of lines will make more sense to you once you look at it more fairly.

(wasalam)

Criticism is valid whether it is constructive or not. How can you claim that only constructive criticism is the solely valid form of questioning or opposing?

The purpose of criticism is many fold, but the main three reasons for it are these:

1) to understand and analyse

OR

2) To distance oneself and renounce or denounce

AND

3) To enable the subject of criticism to be published as information for others.

All these usages of criticism are valid and beneficial in one form or another.

So i disagree about your previous comment about venemous harking and unjustness removing oneself from the ambit of divine guidence, but i dont agree with you that criticising the institution of WF is an unjust act.

Furthermore people are claiming that WF is a divinely decreed rulership and opposing it is a sin.

But no proof has been shown that actually validates WF as a divinely decreed system of governance?

Why dont the supporters of WF show one quranic proof that WF is Allahs(swt) will and back this up with hadeeth?

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This may be the case written in the Constitution since that Constitution is specifically written for Iran and it is the IRANIAN constitution. But there is an opinion amongst our ulema (and I support this) that in the case of any other Islamic Government were to form, the leader of that government would be the WF of that country but still would be subject to the WF (whoever that may be) of the Shias. This can be seen in the ideas of Imam Khomeini (ra) when he was trying to export the Revolution to other countries.

This is of course logical because the Shias need to be united and if 2 Islamic Governments are working in opposite directions it is not conducive. This is why Shias outside of Iran also follow the WF as their political leader otherwise there would be disunity amongst the Shias as caused by those against the WF.

What I am trying to say is that the WF system is for ALL Shias, whether they live in Iran or do not. The Iranian Constitution is only for Iranians but not the WF.

Hasan Sajjad

President

Is this a serious argument? or are you having a laugh??? I mean as i understand (and correct me if i am wrong) the WF was incepted by the iranian constitution. Now that the WF system has been ordained it has surpassed and overtaken the constitution and is not constrained by it?

How can a system incepted and formulated by iranians for iranians suddenly becuase a system that is obligatory on everyone?

What is the difference between this and american imperialism ideologically? It is the one and same, exporting a regional/domestic creed onto others.

The americans use capitalism, freemarkets and democracy as the dirty veil for this peddling of filth, and the iranians have decided to uses shi'ism and (unsubstantiated) islamic and divine rule to force others to accede to this system by making believers feel guilty.

Shame on all those who believe this to a valid way of operating.

Edited by ace51214
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lets cut the [Edited Out] yeah.

rubaiyat - i want a yes or no answer.

i think this global WF pope king system is a load of BS and will never accept it, whether its obligatory or not. do you think that this makes me an apostate?

yes or no will do fine.

lets see you worm out of this.

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number one:

around 329/941, the fourth representitive recieved a last autographed note from our Imam atfs:

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful: 'Ali b. Muhammad al-Simarri, may God increase, through you, the reward of your brothers [in religion, ie: the Shi'ites]; yes, your death will take place in 6 days. Prepare yourself, and name no one as your successor [as representitive] after your death. Here is the advent of the second occultaiton [or the complete occultation] in which there will be no more manifestation, except it be with Divine permission, and that will not take place but after a long time, when hearts will be hardened and the earth filled with violence. Among my partisans, some will claim to have seen me with their eyes. Beware! He who claims to have seen me with his eyes before the raising of al-Sufyani and [the sounding of] the Cry is a liar and an imposter. Greatness and Power belong to God alone.

Six days later al-Samarri, on his death bed, was asked, "Who will be your sucessor?" He replied, " From this point on the matter is in God's hands: He will conduct it Himself"

Those were his last words.

Ibn Babuye Kamal al-Din, volume 2 chapter 45, page 516 number44, also, al-Tusi Kitab al-ghayba, page 257

This means (while the Imam is in ghayba we have no physical representation of true Islamic governance on this earth)

name no one as your successor [as representitive] after your death

NO ONE can claim to represent the words, thoughts, descisions of the Imam atfs now. we are in the time of the major occultation. some people will ask why, why did Imam atfs leave us without anyone.

we do feel this is a test, in hadith we are told by Imam Musa (asws) "The occultation of the Lord of this Cause (atfs) is inevitable so that those who profess this cause may withdraw from it. This is a painful test that God has given to His creatures."

The deep reason for this is however hidden, and we will not know the reason until the return of the Imam atfs. Imam Jafar al- Sadiq (asws) was asked as to this deep reason for the coming occultation and He (asws) replied: " The deep reason is the same as the reason for God's tests and the Occultations that came before. The deep reason will not be unveiled until after [the Imam's atfs] manifestation, exactly in the same way that the deep reason for the sabatoge of the ship, the murder of the young man and the construction of the wall by al-Khidar was not revealed to Moses until later. Son of al-Fadl, this is a Cause that is a part of God's cause,a secret of God's secret, a mystry of God's mystery; when we know that God is wise, we are certain that all his acts contain wisdom, even if this wisdom remains hidden."

Abu ‘Abdallahas said, ‘You must write down (Hadith) and spread our knowledge among your brethren. Upon your death, your children will inherit your books. A time will come when people will face chaos and they will find no comfort anywhere else but within these books.’

who is finding there comfort within the books? people dont even know hadith! nauthobillah!

Allah also tells us in the Qur’an:

‘And inspired [the soul with the faculty of knowing] what is evil and what is good.’ Qur’an 91:8

There were more than one reason for the occultation of our Imam (atfs) one of those reasons was to out through a test of faith those who would say they believe and trust in Allah, His Book, His Rasul and His Imams . We see today the Shia's making the same mistakes that the followers of Abu Bakr made after the death of the Prophet . The Prophet died and a large group of them went astray, deciding then for themselves the religion of Allah, then after the occultation of the Mahdi (atfs) we see some of the Shia's making the same mistake by loosing faith and going astray in the same manner, saying that they can decide for themselves their leaders.

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there is an ayat which states "we have given you intellect so that you may dinstinguish truth from falsehood" so we are allowed to use intellect BUT it has to be subserviant to TRUTH which is Aimma (as) the illuminated guides, the rasikhoona fil ilm (those firmly rooted in knowledge), because it is by ilm that you distinguish things so if They (as) are firmly rooted in knowledge, i.e are the wellsprings of knowledge then it is by the knowledge they give us that we can ascertain truth and falsehood, thus far in this thread, no one is doing this, everyone is full of their own opinion yet no one is willing to look to see is the Aimmah (as) have allowed this. I suggest if we are going to continue this discussion we actually start providing the necessary proofs for such an Islamic governance (governing all shias regardless of location) with a fallible human at its head and not the Imam (atfs)

just reiterating

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Wow, is it hot in here or what?

But Rubaiyat seems to have a solid understanding of the subject, so i ask you sir to name a few references from which i can gain a better idea of a subject i admittedly know very little about.

No problem, is there anything specific you would like to know or in general?

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number one:

Six days later al-Samarri, on his death bed, was asked, "Who will be your sucessor?" He replied, " From this point on the matter is in God's hands: He will conduct it Himself"

Those were his last words.

Ibn Babuye Kamal al-Din, volume 2 chapter 45, page 516 number44, also, al-Tusi Kitab al-ghayba, page 257

name no one as your successor [as representitive] after your death

NO ONE can claim to represent the words, thoughts, descisions of the Imam atfs now. we are in the time of the major occultation.

(bismillah)

(salam)

With due respect sister Zainab, Why are you everytime using your own opinion to interpret things ? WHO(marja) IS CLAIMING TO BE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE IMAM(AS) ?????

NO ONE HAS BEEN NAMED AS SUCCESSOR TO al-Samarri. Do you even understand what Taqleed means? Why are you so admant upon this? Are you of the opinion that there should be no scholars?

Earlier in another thread you were claiming that the BE in the verse Allah SAYS TO A THING BE AND IT IS, represents the Ahlul Bayt(AS)......This is Qiyas....its prohibited.......Who was the BE Then when AhlulBayt(as) were created????/

Dont use your own interpretation. The knowledge of what ever you have gained is due to the toil and efforts of these very scholars whom you seem to detest. Kindly refrain from this behaviour sister, you will be held accountable for what you say, dont get me wrong, no one here is against you, but try and be more thoughtfull in what you write, LEST YOU HARM A PEOPLE IN IGNORANCE,THEN BE SORRY FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.(surah hujarat )

FOUR THINGS SUPPORT THIS WORLD

JUSTICE OF THE GREAT

KNOWLEDGE OF THE WISE

PRAYER OF THE GOOD

AND VALOUR OF THE BRAVE

Prophet Muhammad(SAAW)

Wasallam

Edited by fahim
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brother fahim do you agree that khamenei is the wali of all shias everywhere, and following him unquestiningly in all matters is obligatory, no matter where you live, on pain of apostacy?

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brother fahim do you agree that khamenei is the wali of all shias everywhere, and following him unquestiningly in all matters is obligatory, no matter where you live, on pain of apostacy?

(bismillah)

Has anyone actually put it in those words?

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brother fahim do you agree that khamenei is the wali of all shias everywhere, and following him unquestiningly in all matters is obligatory, no matter where you live, on pain of apostacy?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Nothing as such is OBLIGATORY brother.

In fact the first thing regarding Taqleed is that Marjas say ,try and obtain the knowledge yourself to the fullest, and according to the concept of Taqleed, if a person attains knowledge regarding a certain matter to the fullest then Taqleed for that certain matter ,on that certain individual becomes HARAM, he has to do his own taqleed then....... But is it possible for the populace to do the same ???? You have to understand that everyone cannot become a scholar. I guess the concept of taqleed as understood by majority of non-usoolis here on the chat is totally flawed. Do you think that we are absolute fools and have not researched these implications, that we follow blindly ?

Imam-e-Zamana (a.s.) says in the Tawqee to Shaykh Mufid (a.r.), "If our Shias (May Allah help them in His obedience!) had been united in fulfillment of their covenant regarding us, our meeting them would not have delayed, and they would have soon met us with true and perfect Marefat."

Wasallam

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brother fahim see the post by sis zaynab about the fatwas regarding obedience to the wilayat e faqih, it is ABSOLUTELY obligatory according to them to follow him.

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brother fahim see the post by sis zaynab about the fatwas regarding obedience to the wilayat e faqih, it is ABSOLUTELY obligatory according to them to follow him.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Then why does the very USOOLI Marja Seyyed Fadhlallah dissapprove of it???? Is he despite being an usooli marja not aware of this neccessaty ?? We have to be reasonable brother..................wilayat e faqih is a very recent phenomena,what about the preceding centuries of the so called Usooli school of thought..............

Imam al-Hadi (a.s.) said, ‘My father Muhammad bin Ali told me from his father Ali bin Musa bin Ja’far from his father Ja’far bin Muhammad from his father Muhammad bin Ali from his father Ali bin al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn bin Ali from his father Ali bin Abu Talib that the messenger of Allah (a.s.) said to him, ‘Write down!’ Ali said, ‘What shall I write down?’ The messenger of Allah (a.s.) said, ‘Write down: “In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Faith is that which hearts acknowledge and deeds prove, and Islam is that which tongues witness and marriage becomes lawful with.’

Wasallam & may Allah(Exalted is HE) guide us all to his Straight path.

Edited by fahim
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Then why does the very USOOLI Marja Seyyed Fadhlallah dissapprove of it???? Is he despite being an usooli marja not aware of this neccessaty ?? We have to be reasonable brother..................wilayat e faqih is a very recent phenomena,what about the preceding centuries of the so called Usooli school of thought..............

brother ayatollah fadhlallah isnt the best of examples for you, since he was announced "dhal modhil" by many scholars, led by the late ayatollah jawad tabrezi i believe. i dont know whether he was annouced "astray" before or after he opposed the WF system.

ask yourself instead what ayatollah shirazi thought and what happened to him as a result of this

Edited by maula dha mallang
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(bismillah)

"O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!" 11:47

“Fear God, be as adornment on behalf of us and be not as shame that defames our name. This is the only way by which others shall be attracted toward us (the Ahlul-Bayt of the Holy Prophet .” Imam Hasan al-‘Askari (as)

Wasallam

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that doesnt answer my question bro.

why are pro WF pope king people so shy about answering direct simple questions on this thread? what have you got to hide?

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(bismillah)

A Rattlesnake, if Cornered will become so angry it will bite itself. That is exactly what the harboring of hate and resentment against others is - a biting of oneself. We think we are harming others in holding these spites and hates, but the deeper harm is to ourselves. ~E. Stanley Jones

Wasallam

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