Palestine Conflict [Ambassador speaks]

[Guest JacobM]

Choose ONE of the following positions and present your argument.

1. We should accept current realities and settle for a two-state solution consisting of a Muslim Palestinian state side by side with a Jewish Israeli state, provided that both states respect each other's right to self determination and self sovereignty.

OR

2. We should insist on right of return for Palestinians and accept nothing less than a complete return of all Palestinians living in diaspora who were forcibly displaced since 1948 with basic and equal human rights guaranteed for all citizens regardless of race or faith.

[2099]

I choose :

We should accept current realities and settle for a two-state solution consisting of a Muslim Palestinian state side by side with a Jewish Israeli state, provided that both states respect each other's right to self determination and self sovereignty.

The reason being :

1) No one cares about palestinians

2) If Israelis leave, Palestinians would try to take over Lebanon and other shia states, as they will proclaim it to be their land.

3) Time of Sufyani will come.

4) Do you want Sufyani to come into power this quickly? It would result in massacre of shias until there will be few shias left.

[Amalek]

Choose ONE of the following positions and present your argument.

1. We should accept current realities and settle for a two-state solution consisting of a Muslim Palestinian state side by side with a Jewish Israeli state, provided that both states respect each other's right to self determination and self sovereignty.

This ignores the simple fact that only 7% of the land was actually purchased, the rest was stolen by an imperialistic power still operating today

For justice to be served, we must undo all wrongs committed by the Brits and that includes division of this land

2. We should insist on right of return for Palestinians and accept nothing less than a complete return of all Palestinians living in diaspora who were forcibly displaced since 1948 with basic and equal human rights guaranteed for all citizens regardless of race or faith.

this is the only solution that is feasible

because everytime Israel offers a seeming peace solution, the truth is that the land offered is always isolated, and infertile. Last time they did it, accepting the solution would have resulted in Palestinians being denied access to all water routes in the region

These guys are quite deceptive in that they offer peace solutions which the Palestinians can never accept in the first place, and then complain to the rest of the world that their solutions were denied, so they can once again blame the Palestinians for it

To end this stalemate the only solution is to recreate Palestine as it was before Jewry got involved

They already control key political positions both in the US and Canada. They can move here if they wish, but Palestinians don't have the same opportunities

I recommend either a peaceful moving of Jewry to Canada and the US, or let them stay so long as they accept the one-state solution and can live with the arabs in a one-state Palestine

For the record I have no problem with changing the name of the land back to Judea, since Palestine is rub off on what the Romans originally called it

But let it be made clear. The Torah states that this land belong to children of Abraham; so that includes both arabs and jews. So if you are going to use the bible, then use it with intellectual honesty

[Muhammad-Salman00]

THEE SECONDD ONEE!!!

[pink]

Between the two, I would prefer the one-state solution. I have been mentally working through what a loosely federated region (commonwealth? republic? I don't know?) between two highly autonomous provinces would look like. My old standby for favoured solution is a return to the 1947 map. Nearly everything on it was congruous.

Of course, anything other than a single binational state would have to be heavily monitored by an international force that had the ability to enforce the deal by force of arms, because Israeli politicians through history have made it more than clear that they will not abide by peace agreements of any sort and will use any maneuver to acquire more land. Even the 1948 war and the armistice agreements that followed are proof of Israel's reticence to peace.

[Guest]

Choose ONE of the following positions and present your argument.

1. We should accept current realities and settle for a two-state solution consisting of a Muslim Palestinian state side by side with a Jewish Israeli state, provided that both states respect each other's right to self determination and self sovereignty.

OR

2. We should insist on right of return for Palestinians and accept nothing less than a complete return of all Palestinians living in diaspora who were forcibly displaced since 1948 with basic and equal human rights guaranteed for all citizens regardless of race or faith.

(bismillah)

I support the second option obviously, but most likely justice like this won't be carried out by our own hands. We already have centuries of oppression and injustice to undo and be accounted for, and the time for all of it will come someday. Divine intervention is all that can really be done.

[pink]

(bismillah)

I support the second option obviously, but most likely justice like this won't be carried out by our own hands. We already have centuries of oppression and injustice to undo and be accounted for, and the time for all of it will come someday. Divine intervention is all that can really be done.

assalamu `alaykum

Would you support the first option as an intermediary to the second one? If the international community had the backbone and the material capability of enforcing the rule of international law, would you rather proceed directly to the second option? Would you prefer a federated binational state, or a fully unified single state based on a representational democracy?

[ShiaSoldier@2007]

I choose :

The reason being :

1) No one cares about palestinians

2) If Israelis leave, Palestinians would try to take over Lebanon and other shia states, as they will proclaim it to be their land.

3) Time of Sufyani will come.

4) Do you want Sufyani to come into power this quickly? It would result in massacre of shias until there will be few shias left.

Until sufyani doesnt rise Imam will not come. I would let sufyani kill me 1000's times to see my Imam return.

[Guest]

assalamu `alaykum

Would you support the first option as an intermediary to the second one? If the international community had the backbone and the material capability of enforcing the rule of international law, would you rather proceed directly to the second option? Would you prefer a federated binational state, or a fully unified single state based on a representational democracy?

(bismillah)

(salam)

The first option does not go far enough in terms of the Palestinians. In terms of practical purposes, I think one unified Palestinian state with all parts of the population represented (Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc) can and should be acheived. I don't see how keeping a country called Israel and maintaining a government built on expansionism will help anything. I don't know.

[Noah-]

2) If Israelis leave, Palestinians would try to take over Lebanon and other shia states, as they will proclaim it to be their land.

Not true!

[pink]

(bismillah)

(salam)

The first option does not go far enough in terms of the Palestinians. In terms of practical purposes, I think one unified Palestinian state with all parts of the population represented (Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc) can and should be acheived. I don't see how keeping a country called Israel and maintaining a government built on expansionism will help anything. I don't know.

wa `alaykum assalam

The idea of phases appeals to me, mostly because I want to see action now and know that there is no hope of an immediate granting of rights to the Palestinians. At the same time, I suspect that Israel would simply halt after the first phase had been accomplished and refuse to make further progress towards Palestinian sovereignty.

In today's reality, we have Netanyahu firmly negating Palestinian statehood. Wallah I think that it is the duty of the UN to pull together international forces to impose a Palestinian statehood on Israel. It is only too obvious that under the Israeli leaders available today, nothing as such would happen.

[Guest]

wa `alaykum assalam

The idea of phases appeals to me, mostly because I want to see action now and know that there is no hope of an immediate granting of rights to the Palestinians. At the same time, I suspect that Israel would simply halt after the first phase had been accomplished and refuse to make further progress towards Palestinian sovereignty.

In today's reality, we have Netanyahu firmly negating Palestinian statehood. Wallah I think that it is the duty of the UN to pull together international forces to impose a Palestinian statehood on Israel. It is only too obvious that under the Israeli leaders available today, nothing as such would happen.

(bismillah)

The mistake is to rely on the UN in the first place. The UN is controlled by very powerful countries, especially the US and UK, and will oppose anything that even slightly hints at significantly undermining Israel's territorial position. The mere fact that something is not "official" unless the UN commands it is really the main issue here. Find another way, and it becomes illigitimate and unrecognized. It is a lose lose situation.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Shia Engineer

[Reepicheep]

Amalek wrote: The Torah states that this land belong to children of Abraham; so that includes both arabs and jews.

Not exactly. The land was promised to Jacob, Abraham's grandson:

"I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you (Jacob) and your descendants the land on which you are lying." Genesis 28:13

[simplymoja]

I go for option 2.

Option 1 is a short term solution i.e.an induced fake peace to attain the wider goal of Greater Israel which stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile.

[Reepicheep]

simplymoja wrote: attain the wider goal of Greater Israel which stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile.

If the Jews want a "Greater Israel", then why did they return control of the Sinai Desert to Egypt in 1982?

[simplymoja]

simplymoja wrote: attain the wider goal of Greater Israel which stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile.

If the Jews want a "Greater Israel", then why did they return control of the Sinai Desert to Egypt in 1982?

A Land for peace ploy. They will also be prepared to return Golan to Syria if Syria agrees to join the anti Iran camp but they will refuse to return Shebaa Farms. If you go back to history, there was a possibility that Jews might have been settled in Uganda. When I first heard this ridiculous claim, I absolutely balked at it. Then I realised, Uganda has the source of the Nile so the claim wasnt so ridiculous.

So lets see how this pans out with the Golan thingy.

[Reepicheep]

simplymoja wrote: A Land for peace ploy.

Well, Egypt and Israel have been at peace for decades, so it must have worked.

[Guest]

simplymoja wrote: A Land for peace ploy.

Well, Egypt and Israel have been at peace for decades, so it must have worked.

(bismillah)

Peace without justice is not peace.

[simplymoja]

Well, Egypt and Israel have been at peace for decades, so it must have worked.

True to a minimum extent. Its called a Cold Peace or in Accounting Terms its called Window Dressing the Balance Sheet. And residually, with the Cold Peace the Palestinian cause got worse with the transparent Egyptian complicity. This makes Egypt a time bomb.

But you are also not considering the timing of it all. The reconstruction of the Third Temple has to be achieved by 2018 latest if I am not mistaken. So time is of the essence. And to rebuild the Third Temple, the following is absolutely necessary

1 - An Undivided Jerusalem in Israeli favour.

2 - To bring down the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa. This will be deemed as an act of war by the Muslim world.

3 - To render redundant any form of Resistance. Hence the demonisation of the only Islamic Resistance agencies namely Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.

So expect an escalation of saber rattling and subsequent violence with these 3 entities for the next 7 years assuming that the Third Temple must take a couple of years to build.

[pink]

Israel occupied the Sinai peninsula during the 1967 war. This was after Israel had joined the UN and agreed to its principles. That would include, of course, the negation of the validity of the acquisition of territory by war (UNSC Res 242, 1967). The West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, Shebaa Farms, and Sinai Peninsula have all been illegitimate acquisitions. The only reason that "land for peace" is used to return them to their proper owners is because the international community lacks the spinal fortitude to enforce its own laws.

Brother Engineer, assalamu `alaykum: You are certainly correct; and I would add that Egypt is just as corrupt and unjust as any other anti-Islamic regime.

[simplymoja]

The only reason that "land for peace" is used to return them to their proper owners is because the international community lacks the spinal fortitude to enforce its own laws.

It depends on what is the definition of proper owners. Take Shebaa Farms as an example. There is no intention to return it to Lebanon. UN has given Syria the right to Shebaa but Syria doesnt want it.

[Amalek]

Amalek wrote: The Torah states that this land belong to children of Abraham; so that includes both arabs and jews.

Not exactly. The land was promised to Jacob, Abraham's grandson:

"I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you (Jacob) and your descendants the land on which you are lying." Genesis 28:13

And how does that prove exclusivity to Jews exactly

In fact this contradict verse 15

The promise that is the basis of the term is contained in Genesis 15:18-21 of the Hebrew Bible:

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga[Edited Out]es and Jebusites."

Notice it says to Abram's (Abraham) descendents who are both jews and arabs

Then again one of the million plus contradictions in your bible is that it cannot even agree on what the borders of the holy land are. there are different borders in different books. Here is just one example of a one contradiction between Deuteronomy and Ezekiel for example:

Edited March 29, 2009 by Amalek

[145_turbo_16V]

Option 2 (2 state solution) WITH:

1-Everything back to the 67 borders

2-MONETARY COMPENSATION !!!!

[Marbles]

And how does that prove exclusivity to Jews exactly

In fact this contradict verse 15

The promise that is the basis of the term is contained in Genesis 15:18-21 of the Hebrew Bible:

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga[Edited Out]es and Jebusites."

Notice it says to Abram's (Abraham) descendents who are both jews and arabs

Then again one of the million plus contradictions in your bible is that it cannot even agree on what the borders of the holy land are. there are different borders in different books. Here is just one example of a one contradiction between Deuteronomy and Ezekiel for example:

Muslims sliding into the argument as to whom God gave that piece of land is akin to accepting the basis of that argument as valid.

Jacob or Buddha, Confucius or Ishmael, Abraham or Zoroaster, Jews or Celts, Red Indians or Arabs - Doesn't matter who lived there 4000 or 8000 years ago. This is is a false and shallow argument. The people inhabiting this piece of land for centuries were kicked out under the pretext of this ghastly argument. This is a fact.

Edited April 6, 2009 by Marbles

[Kalashnikov]

I would choose option 2, since I am only given to 2 options.

Israel is nothing more than an American base in the Middle East, A British invention planned for during 1916, by Sykes and Pico as well as the rest of the Arab countries. In 1952 the power shifted towards America's favor. Thus America is the leading nation causing all problems in the Middle East and around the globe. It is etched in it's DNA of Foreign policy to stir up conspiracy and cause havoc, chaos and mischief in other people's countries to meet it's own interest. America is the head of all corrupt and oppressive nations. Strike the head and the body shall fall.

Salam

[pink]

Muslims sliding into the argument as to whom God gave that piece of land is akin to accepting the basis of that argument as valid.

Jacob or Buddha, Confucius or Ishmael, Abraham or Zoroaster, Jews or Celts, Red Indians or Arabs - Doesn't matter who lived there 4000 or 8000 years ago. This is is a false and shallow argument. The people inhabiting this piece of land for centuries were kicked out under the pretext of this ghastly argument. This is a fact.

You are so correct. It is enough to know that a group of radicalised immigrants whose ideology was not even shared by all of the Jewish people who had immigrated or fled to Palestine comitted atrocious crimes against humanity in order to claw their way to as much territory as possible. The zionist radicals used a falsified excuse of having been "attacked" as a pretext to grab land by means of war, spend most of the war in an offensive - not defensive - posture, committed several massacres, and wilfully caused the flight of around 700,000 Palestinian refugees and subsequently refused to allow them their right to return.

Every time we attack their arguments, we lend credence to their arguments. Every time we attack them on the basis of their religion, ethnicity, or even nationality, we cheapen our arguments and endanger our own faith (prejudice being one of the diseases of the heart, according to Islam). Taqullah.

[Marbles]

You are so correct. It is enough to know that a group of radicalised immigrants whose ideology was not even shared by all of the Jewish people who had immigrated or fled to Palestine comitted atrocious crimes against humanity in order to claw their way to as much territory as possible. The zionist radicals used a falsified excuse of having been "attacked" as a pretext to grab land by means of war, spend most of the war in an offensive - not defensive - posture, committed several massacres, and wilfully caused the flight of around 700,000 Palestinian refugees and subsequently refused to allow them their right to return.

Every time we attack their arguments, we lend credence to their arguments. Every time we attack them on the basis of their religion, ethnicity, or even nationality, we cheapen our arguments and endanger our own faith (prejudice being one of the diseases of the heart, according to Islam). Taqullah.

I couldn't have put it any better. Kudos!

[علوي]

Why has no one posted in a thread about Palestine for 13 years while the Leader says, "the issue of Palestine is the first issue of the world of Islam"?

Here's an update:

Quote

UN warns of ‘deadliest year’ for Palestinians
...
“So far, 2022 is on course to be the deadliest year for the Palestinians in the West Bank since [Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs] began systematically tracking Palestinian fatalities in 2005,” Tor Wennesland said in a briefing to the UN Security Council on Friday.
...
Overall, 32 Palestinians including six children have been killed since the start of the year by Israeli security forces...Wennesland said. He added that 311 Palestinians...were injured.
...
During the same period, two Israeli security personnel were killed by Palestinians and 13 injured. In addition, 25 Israeli civilians were injured.

https://www.rt.com/news/565589-deadliest-year-palestinians-2022/

Iran says UNSC position has encouraged Zionist regime atrocities against Palestinians

Quote

Amir Saied Iravani, the Ambassador and Permanent Representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the United Nations on “the situation in the Middle East, including Question of Palestine” said in a statement on Saturday[:]
...
The Council's current position has only encouraged and emboldened the Israeli regime to perpetuate its occupation and atrocities against the oppressed people of Palestine.

The Islamic Republic of Iran regards it as its duty to support Palestine's legitimate rights to resistance to the oppression and aggression of this apartheid regime, in line with the right of self-determination, and this will be our principled policy until the occupation ends.

https://en.irna.ir/news/84926952/Iran-says-UNSC-position-has-encouraged-Zionist-regime-atrocities

UN special ME coordinator says 2022 among deadliest years for Palestinians in West Bank

Quote

Moreover, among delegates expressing views on the matter was the representative of France. The French envoy Nathalie Broadhurst Estival explained that one of the root causes of this resurgence of violence is “the continuation of the Israeli settlement policy, illegal under international law.”
...
Also, Venezuela’s delegate, Joaquín Alberto Pérez Ayestarán, criticized the silence of the international community, pointing out that "the international community and [the UN Security] Council cannot continue to stand idly by in the face of policies of aggression, settler occupation and apartheid that have resulted in the death of more than 10,000 Palestinians, including at least 2,000 children in the last 20 years.”

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/10/29/691809/2022-Among-Deadliest-Years-for-Palestinians-in-West-Bank-UN-

Five former EU foreign ministers describe Israel as 'apartheid' regime, slam intl. community's inaction in face of aggression

Quote

In an open letter, five former European ministers have labeled Israel’s policies against Palestinians as “crime of apartheid,” amid the ongoing killings and violence perpetrated by the Israeli occupation forces against the Palestinian people.

"We see no alternative but to acknowledge that Israel’s policies and practices against the Palestinians amount to the crime of apartheid,” the ministers declared.

The ministers criticized the silence of the international community, which "failed to act in the face of serious violations of international law" when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/10/29/691785/Israel-is-an-apartheid-regime-Five-Former-EU-Foreign-Ministers-

 

[Hasani Samnani]

It's unfortunate we don't pay attention to the slaughter... and life the Palestinians must live.

If I told you what kind of lives they face , constant humiliatition at checkpoints which are everywhere,   it's surprising they don't become suicidal.

I've been to the West Bank before covid to train other doctors. I saw the difficult conditions,  zones a b c and how the evil armed nazi settlers act like with the Palestinians , its horrible.

With the world soon focused on the world cup, watch the Israelis attack Gaza and even west bank again.

Additional the water, the soil and crops are purposefully destroyed or posioned,  but try to get our uber humanitarians to mention such an issue ....we all know who they are,  to address the Palestinian questions and we hear crickets....same with Shia massacres like in shiraz, or every week in Afghanistan...

but for one Kurdish girl they will Write 100 replies....the hypocritical attitude is sad and shows the western propaganda brain washing.  or against Russia they will be so vocal,  but talk about Muslims being actively slaughtered...again ...nothing. 

I am trying to organize a teaching medical trip again to two hospitals in the West Bank in February and if we are fortunate even Gaza...but that is more difficult...because Israel loves their open air prison.

Also the Hindutava movement is cutting and pasting the Israeli strategies in Kashmir....its all very sad ...but we must try to help our poor unfortunate brothers and sisters in these occupied territories. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Hasani Samnani

[علوي]

Israel to confiscate 616,000 square meters of Palestinian land for settlement expansion in West Bank

Quote

Ghassan Daghlas, a Palestinian activist who monitors Israeli settlement activities in the northern West Bank, said on Monday that Israeli officials had issued a military order aimed at confiscation of some 616 dunams (616,000 square meters) of Palestinian-owned land in the villages of Qaryout and al-Lubban ash-Sharqiya, and as-Sawiya town to make room for the expansion of the nearby illegal Eli settlement.

He added that Eli settlement started as a cluster of mobile homes built on a hill in the area back in 1984, and has ever since continued to expand at the expense of expropriation of Palestinian lands to become one of the largest settlements in the occupied West Bank.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/10/31/691924/616,000-square-meters-of-Palestinian-land-to-be-confiscated-for-settlement-expansion-in-West-Bank

 

[علوي]

'Israel' must get rid of its nuclear weapons: UNGA

Quote

The First Committee of the UN General Assembly ruled in an initial 152-5 decision that "Israel" must destroy all its nuclear weapons and submit its nuclear facilities to the control of the International Atomic Energy Agency.
...
The resolution discloses that "Israel" is the only entity in the Middle East region and one of the few UN members (193 total) that have not signed the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT).

Although a Western-induced hysteria is focused on Iran's nuclear program, which the country always assured is peaceful, "Israel" is deemed the real threat in the region.
...
On Friday, a proposal for a Middle East nuclear-free zone was also accepted by the First Committee with 170 votes, including Iran. "Israel" was the only entity to object to the text. The United States, Cameron, Comoros, and Tanzania were the only four nations to abstain.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/israel-must-get-rid-of-its-nuclear-weapons:-unga

 

[علوي]

2 Palestinians killed, 3 injured by Israeli soldiers in West Bank: medics

Quote

Two Palestinians were killed, and three were injured on Thursday afternoon by Israeli soldiers in the northern West Bank city of Jenin and its refugee camp, Palestinian medics and eyewitnesses said.

The Palestinian Ministry of Health said in a statement that Farouq Salameh, 28, died at Jenin's governmental hospital from severe wounds sustained after being shot in the head, chest, and abdomen by Israeli soldiers.

The statement added that another Palestinian, named Mohammad Saba'neh, died as a result of the critical wounds he received from Israeli forces and that three others were injured and are being treated at a hospital.

There has been no immediate Israeli authorities' comment on the incident.

https://english.news.cn/20221103/009b39554dd4452f85c1597aec40c45e/c.html

Does anyone care? Any calls for regime change in Israel? Any violent riots killing police officers and burning buildings? Or no, is that only for Iran?

[Fatimiyyeh]

Eversince Michael Nostradamus prophesied the coming of a Savior who will destroy all evils and the West, USA has spent billions of dollars in investing to PREVENT THEIR DESTRUCTION BY PREVENTING THE COMING OF THE MAHDY ASWS / AJTFS.

This is one among the many innuendoes towards this sole agenda. 

They are creating all sorts of Lahw that wastes time n makes our youths lose their iimaan as well as productivity...

May Allaah SWTT keep us and our kids safe from this Taghoot and grant us all the baseerah to understand the underhand ways of the West and to be able to prevent us all being lured... 

May Allaah SWTT hasten the Reappearance of Imaam Al Hujjah and the speedy reconstruction of Al Baqiyyah In-Sha-Allaah, Allahumma Aameen BiHaqqi Haqqi Zahraa ASWS.

Watch below clip with regards to the aforementioned prophecy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf-JVeL_Brk

[Haji 2003]

There's Holocaust denial and then there's

blaming the Palestinians for it

[VoidVortex]

says a lot about your country if a man who is on trial for corruption becomes prime minister