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In the Name of God بسم الله

[Closed/Review]NAWROZ

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Nawroz, as far as i know ,it is supposed to be the Persian new year. But why should it be celebrated ? Since Islam supercedes everything and according to islam Muharram is the first month. Its even celebrated here in kashmir as well, and its called Eid-e-Nawroz, i guess kashmir is the only place other than iran where its celebrated by the shias, so much so that its a state holiday here on 21 March. But kashmir has had close links with iran as far as its islamic history is concerned, the culture resembles to a certain extent as well, this is mostly due to the fact that many islamic preachers came to kashmir from iran like Shah-e-Hamdan etc etc, they also brought with them their diciples in there thousands, they intermarried with the local populace and left hundreds of thousands of descendants , even Imam Khomeni's ancestors resided in kashmir before their migration to iran. But thats not the point, the question is why so much significance is accorded to nawroz since it has no religious background(as far as i know). My family resided in iran for a decade, i was a kid back then, but whatever memory recollections i have , i remember it used to be a huge event in iran, about 15 days of holidays, much more than what was given for either Eid ul-Fitr or Eid al-Adha ( i am only writing from memory), there was this Soofray containing seven green dishes. I know as far as customs are concerned, when they dont go against islam, there is no harm in celebrating them, but should such importance be accorded to Nawroz? And one more thing , since i am not aware of this, is Nawroz celebrated by shias living in Arabian countries as well?(i guess it wont be, as Arabs are averse to everything Persian) If someone can kindly explain this matter, i will be thankful..........Already mom is busy in the kitchen preparing for Nawroz!!!!!!

Wasallam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

But brother, my question is why to give it so much significance, Islamic culture should take the precedence, i am not against it, but why to celebrate it with so much vigour, its something that does not make sense, and why are you saying its wahhabi idealogy, rest assured bro, i am a shia to the core, but it just does not seem right, since Imam al-Ridha(as) lived in iran for sometime too, did he recomend to celebrate it, do we have proofs? Dont get me wrong, its just an academic question which has been in my mind since ages, i have asked many, but their replies have been more or less same as yours, but i am not convinced bro.

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As far as I know, The Nowroz is the day when Hazrat Ali (A.S) was made the successor OR the Naib(Next) of Muhammad (P.B.U.H). And He(A.S) was handed over the Monarchy (Though His enemies didn't accept this). It's celebrated with this memory. It's Also celebrated in Afghanistan at huge level by Afghani Shia.

Any other bro/sis have relevant facts,please discuss.

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As far as I know, The Nowroz is the day when Hazrat Ali (A.S) was made the successor OR the Naib(Next) of Muhammad (P.B.U.H). And He(A.S) was handed over the Monarchy (Though His enemies didn't accept this). It's celebrated with this memory. It's Also celebrated in Afghanistan at huge level by Afghani Shia.

Any other bro/sis have relevant facts,please discuss.

(bismillah) (salam) I did not get you, which event are you talking about bro....... Successor should correspond to Eid-e-Gadeer.

ONE MORE THING THERE IS NO NABI AFTER MUHAMMAD(SAAW), I AM SURE YOU WROTE IT BY MISTAKE, BUT THESE MISTAKES ARE TO BE AVOIDED, WE DONT WANT WAHHABIS YOU SAY"WE TOLD YOU"!!!!!

Wasallam

Edited by fahim
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ONE MORE THING THERE IS NO NABI AFTER MUHAMMAD(SAAW), I AM SURE YOU WROTE IT BY MISTAKE, BUT THESE MISTAKES ARE TO BE AVOIDED, WE DONT WANT WAHHABIS YOU SAY"WE TOLD YOU"!!!!! Wasallam
The word was not nabi "prophet" but naib (äÇÆÈ) "deputy, viceroy".
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There are a lot of things we do that have absolutely nothing to do with Islamic history

But that doesn't mean they are haram.

That is salafite/Wahabbist theology.

..and why are you saying its wahhabi idealogy, rest assured bro, i am a shia to the core

(bismillah)

(salam)

I think what Rubaiyat meant was that its salafi/wahabbi practce to declare all things ( that have not been explicitly classified as haram) as haram.

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Yes, and there are some narrations even by the Holy Prophet (s) and him praising norooz. He was given Halwa on this day, the same for Imam Ali. But Norooz in today's understanding is the first day of a calendar developed by an Islamic scholar by the name of Omar Khayyam's sciences. Iran has two calendar's, Hedjri and Jalali.

Iranian scholar cleric of Nowrooz. He says Prophet and Ahlalbait have allowed it, and vast majority of clerics of Islam have allowed it.

http://www.4visit.com/play.php?vid=850

Edited by Rubaiyat
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(bismillah)

Come'on brothers, not a single convincing explination.............i dont want to celebrate nawroz this year too with the same feeling as to why i am celebrating it at all...............

Edited by fahim
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Nawroz, as far as i know ,it is supposed to be the Persian new year. But why should it be celebrated ? Since Islam supercedes everything and according to islam Muharram is the first month. Its even celebrated here in kashmir as well, and its called Eid-e-Nawroz, i guess kashmir is the only place other than iran where its celebrated by the shias, so much so that its a state holiday here on 21 March. But kashmir has had close links with iran as far as its islamic history is concerned, the culture resembles to a certain extent as well, this is mostly due to the fact that many islamic preachers came to kashmir from iran like Shah-e-Hamdan etc etc, they also brought with them their diciples in there thousands, they intermarried with the local populace and left hundreds of thousands of descendants , even Imam Khomeni's ancestors resided in kashmir before their migration to iran. But thats not the point, the question is why so much significance is accorded to nawroz since it has no religious background(as far as i know). My family resided in iran for a decade, i was a kid back then, but whatever memory recollections i have , i remember it used to be a huge event in iran, about 15 days of holidays, much more than what was given for either Eid ul-Fitr or Eid al-Adha ( i am only writing from memory), there was this Soofray containing seven green dishes. I know as far as customs are concerned, when they dont go against islam, there is no harm in celebrating them, but should such importance be accorded to Nawroz? And one more thing , since i am not aware of this, is Nawroz celebrated by shias living in Arabian countries as well?(i guess it wont be, as Arabs are averse to everything Persian) If someone can kindly explain this matter, i will be thankful..........Already mom is busy in the kitchen preparing for Nawroz!!!!!!

Wasallam

Hi fahim

i think you don't have enough information about Iran before Islam , at first I should mention that before Arab's attack to Iran , Kashmir was part of Iran ( you could see the map in this link http://mehrab.eshgh.googlepages.com/iransasanian.jpg

Then you told that "so much significance is accorded to nawroz since it has no religious background", but you make mistake because Iranian wasn't ilolater before getting muslim like Arabs , frome ancient times we had belief in God and worship him , we had a prophet who called ZARTOSHT (zoroaster ) , and any tradition we have is according to faith to this religion , so you could see its religious background.

Edited by nino85
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Hi fahim

i think you don't have enough information about Iran before Islam , at first I should mention that before Arab's attack to Iran , Kashmir was part of Iran ( you could see the map in this link http://mehrab.eshgh.googlepages.com/iransasanian.jpg

Then you told that "so much significance is accorded to nawroz since it has no religious background", but you make mistake because Iranian wasn't ilolater before getting muslim like Arabs , frome ancient times we had belief in God and worship him , we had a profit who called ZARTOSHT (zoroaster ) , and any tradition we have is according to faith to this religion , so you could see its religious background.

(bismillah) (salam)

What are you talking about brother?, we are talking about Islam here, its the only religion acceptable to Allah(swt), what Zoroasterians did is none of my concern, and i am not talking about Nawroz as an iranian festival,thats none of my business, but WHAT I AM AFTER IS ITS RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE

Wasallam

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(bismillah) (salam)

What are you talking about brother?, we are talking about Islam here, its the only religion acceptable to Allah(swt), what Zoroasterians did is none of my concern, and i am not talking about Nawroz as an iranian festival,thats none of my business, but WHAT I AM AFTER IS ITS RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE

Wasallam

Hey Islam didn't proscribe last religion just it complete them , then you are celebrating a tradition which is none of your business , any way as a muslim you could celebrate like Arabs , the first month of them , not Nowros and not christmas don't have meaning for you , leave it .

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Hey Islam didn't proscribe last religion just it complete them , then you are celebrating a tradition which is none of your business , any way as a muslim you could celebrate like Arabs , the first month of them , not Nowros and not christmas don't have meaning for you , leave it .

(bismillah) SOMEONE KINDLY HANDLE THIS GUY, I CANT, ITS DUSGUSTING WHAT HE IS SAYING "Islam didn't proscribe last religion just it complete them " RIDICULOUS TO SAY THE LEAST, READ ABOUT ISLAM BROTHER, YOUR CONCEPTS ARE TOTALLY WRONG, ISLAM IS BY ITSELF A COMPLETE RELIGION, No wonder sunnis accuse us by saying persians invented Shia islam, i am deeply hurt

Wasallam

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(bismillah) SOMEONE KINDLY HANDLE THIS GUY, I CANT, ITS DUSGUSTING WHAT HE IS SAYING "Islam didn't proscribe last religion just it complete them " RIDICULOUS TO SAY THE LEAST, READ ABOUT ISLAM BROTHER, YOUR CONCEPTS ARE TOTALLY WRONG, ISLAM IS BY ITSELF A COMPLETE RELIGION, No wonder sunnis accuse us by saying persians invented Shia islam, i am deeply hurt

Wasallam

OK YOU THINK SO ,I WILL READ MORE ABOUT ISLAM BUT YOU PLEASE READ MORE ABOUT HISTORY !

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OK YOU THINK SO ,I WILL READ MORE ABOUT ISLAM BUT YOU PLEASE READ MORE ABOUT HISTORY !

(bismillah)

And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace. [25:63

PEACE

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Nawruz was the beginning of the Persian New Year, and considered the holiest day in the Zoroastrian calendar. There are some narrations that recommend it, others that speak negatively on it. It was the Abbasids that apparently promoted it, as they styled themselves on the old Persian monarchy (with an Islamic face). Nowadays, Persians and those who have been influenced by Persian culture continue to celebrate it as such. People will make claims such as it being the day Imam `Ali (as) was born, however this is proven false when you actually look at the calendar dates for that year (he would have been born sometime in Fall, like in October).

As to whether this is right or wrong, let me ask another question. If Muslims in the West started (or kept on) celebrating Christmas, hanging decorations, stocking, lights and a Christmas tree, giving gifts, etc. and (this is the most key part here) gave it way more attention than `Eid al-Ghadir, `Eid al-Fitr, or `Eid al-Adha, what would be your view on that?

Edited by macisaac
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Nawruz was the beginning of the Persian New Year, and considered the holiest day in the Zoroastrian calendar. There are some narrations that recommend it, others that speak negatively on it. It was the Abbasids that apparently promoted it, as they styled themselves on the old Persian monarchy (with an Islamic face). Nowadays, Persians and those who have been influenced by Persian culture continue to celebrate it as such. People will make claims such as it being the day Imam `Ali (as) was born, however this is proven false when you actually look at the calendar dates for that year (he would have been born sometime in Fall, like in October).

As to whether this is right or wrong, let me ask another question. If Muslims in the West started (or kept on) celebrating Christmas, hanging decorations, stocking, lights and a Christmas tree, giving gifts, etc. and (this is the most key part here) gave it way more attention than `Eid al-Ghadir, `Eid al-Fitr, or `Eid al-Adha, what would be your view on that?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Well, it would be wrong. But then again the reason it is bothering me is the same too,it is being celebrated in Iran(else where too,), so as to say right under the noses of the marja and the scholars of Qom, that too in a state where they hold great sway over power, so why are they allowing it in the first place.Since you mentioned in very clear words, in has as such no religious significance.Infact if ,i dare say, continuation of Zorastrian practices. Consequences are already for all to see, as earlier in the thread a certain person was exactly saying the same things,that Zorastrian practice & islam only a completing religion!!!!! What more proof does one need ,where this practice is leading us to??? Kindly shed some light on this, without mincing words, since we need to call a spade a spade.

Wasallam

Edited by fahim
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^ christmas cant be compared to nawrooz. one is the celebration of the birth of a prophet even though the date is wrong the other does not even clebrate the birth of a prophet.

bro would you happen to know the authenticity of this hadith:

Ibne Shahr Ashob relates, that (Caliph) Mansoor requested Imam Moosa al Kazim (a.s) to hold a congregation for greetings on the day of Nawrooz and receive whatever is brought to him. Imam (a.s) replied,

"I have examined the reports transmitted to me from my grandfather the Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.s), and I have not found any details regarding this day of celebration. This had been the practice of the Persians, while Islam has abolished it, and Allah's Refuge, that we should enliven the abrogations of Islam".

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l...oom/46.htm#p420

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^ christmas cant be compared to nawrooz. one is the celebration of the birth of a prophet even though the date is wrong the other does not even clebrate the birth of a prophet.

bro would you happen to know the authenticity of this hadith:

Ibne Shahr Ashob relates, that (Caliph) Mansoor requested Imam Moosa al Kazim (a.s) to hold a congregation for greetings on the day of Nawrooz and receive whatever is brought to him. Imam (a.s) replied,

"I have examined the reports transmitted to me from my grandfather the Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.s), and I have not found any details regarding this day of celebration. This had been the practice of the Persians, while Islam has abolished it, and Allah's Refuge, that we should enliven the abrogations of Islam".

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l...oom/46.htm#p420

(bismillah) (salam) Allah HO AKBAR, this is a massive statement if authentic, if so, no matter what any one else says, it has to be stopped. Your source is mareef-fundation, which i think is amongst the most prestigious shia islam sites on the web. Brothers of knowledge kindly come forward and explain

Wasallam

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As far as I know, The Nowroz is the day when Hazrat Ali (A.S) was made the successor OR the Naib(Next) of Muhammad (P.B.U.H). And He(A.S) was handed over the Monarchy (Though His enemies didn't accept this).

the hadith from the 6th imam? probably fabricated because the narrator is weak and the hadith says that nawroz so fell on the conquest of makkah. thats impossible since eid ul ghadeer and the conquest of makkah are about 3 months apart.

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Nowrooz of today has absolutely NOTHING to do with Zoroastrianism. It has to do with Omar Khayyam's calendar and he did not relate any of his research on Zoroastrianism at all with regards to this being the first day of the month.

Also, Nino, Zoroastrianism was Moshrek (polytheistic), like Dr. Hassan Abbasi said "Moshrek budim, bot parast nabudim" (we were polytheists, but not koffar) But this polytheism is the same as polytheism of Christianity of course and accepted as ahlol Ketab. But this topic has nothing to do with Zartosht.

http://english.iribnews.ir/IranVision_body.aspx?ID=92 (doa Nowrooz taught by prophet Mohammad)

http://www2.irib.ir/occasions/noroz/En/Nor...0of%20Islam.HTM (norooz at the advent of Islam)

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^ is your second link is misleading?

it says nothing about how the imam responded (in my earlier post)

Manssor, the second Abbasid king suggested Imam Kazim to choose

Norouz as a day of the accession to the throne so that the people

could offer him the special Norouz greetings and gifts.”

Therefore; like the other national traditions, having no contrast

with the Islamic principles, the feast of Norouz continued to survive

among the Iranians.

taking that into account what can we say about the first "hadith" on that page:

“ Following the Norouz tradition, a present was offered to Imam Ali.

Imam asked: “ what is this?” “ O’ Amir ul Mo’menin (the commander

of faithful), today is Norouz” replied they. “ Every day should be Norouz”

, said he.”

here is what an iranian shia alim says about what imam ali had to say about one popular nawroz tradition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxDbxXG-X1Q

regarding any duas or acts of worship ayatullah khamenei says:

Q1456. Is there any truth in what has been reported of the lofty position of the Day of Nawrūz and the great reward that could be reaped for engaging in acts of worship on that day? Is it permissible to engage in these acts of worship as really desired in Islam?

A: Doing so with the intention of being really reported in shar‘ is problematic and a matter for contemplation. However, there is no harm in engaging in these acts of worship in the hope of being mustahabb in Islam.

I am not anti nawroz but i do think we need to put things into perspective considering that there is no real proof that this event is islamic because people elevate this day to a level higher than it deserves due to nationalistic reasons.

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Muhammad Ali, you have not read the other posts, and I do not if you understand Farsi but I've posted a video of a cleric on IRIB TV that says the scholars of Islam, Ahlalbait and Prophet allowed norooz and that there can be absolutely nothing found that says it is wrong or bad. I do not know who Fasihi is or his credentials.

http://www.4visit.com/play.php?vid=850

Besides, nobody says Norooz has a lofty position. This is a zoroastrian idea. Norooz has to do with Omar Khayyam and his calendar. This calendar says it is the first day of the year. The Norooz of Zoroastrianism was on another calendar, another celebration. Not the same as today.

Edited by Rubaiyat
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Nowrooz of today has absolutely NOTHING to do with Zoroastrianism. It has to do with Omar Khayyam's calendar and he did not relate any of his research on Zoroastrianism at all with regards to this being the first day of the month.

Err, no... Nawruz is an ancient holiday that was the most (or amongst the most) sacred day in the Persian calendar. Umar Khayyam is very late, what does he have to do with this? And as to its modern day celebration having nothing to do with the pre-Islamic Persian religion, how then do you explain Chaharshanbe Suri celebrated just before it? Jumping over a bonfire? Nothing to do with Zoroastrianism you think?

Also, Nino, Zoroastrianism was Moshrek (polytheistic), like Dr. Hassan Abbasi said "Moshrek budim, bot parast nabudim" (we were polytheists, but not koffar) But this polytheism is the same as polytheism of Christianity of course and accepted as ahlol Ketab. But this topic has nothing to do with Zartosht.

Don't like to quip, but that means "we were mushrik, we were not idol worshippers" (it doesn't say they were not kuffar). It is not however the same as Chrisitianity as the Christians profess to believe in one God (though their understanding of that is corrupt), while the ancient Persians believed in many. If I'm remembering right, they are considered Ahl Shubh al-Kitab (somewhat different from Ahl al-Kitab), not quite on the same level in fiqh as Christians and Jews are.

The Norooz of Zoroastrianism was on another calendar, another celebration. Not the same as today.

It's the spring equinox, or thereabouts... How different do you think it can be?

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Besides, nobody says Norooz has a lofty position.

Brother perhaps you dont think it has a lofty position but most Iranians give it huge importance, much more then most islamic events.

The Norooz of Zoroastrianism was on another calendar, another celebration. Not the same as today.
on which day do zoroastrians celebrate noruz in modern times? Edited by Muhammed Ali
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Err, no... Nawruz is an ancient holiday that was the most (or amongst the most) sacred day in the Persian calendar. Umar Khayyam is very late, what does he have to do with this? And as to its modern day celebration having nothing to do with the pre-Islamic Persian religion, how then do you explain Chaharshanbe Suri celebrated just before it? Jumping over a bonfire? Nothing to do with Zoroastrianism you think?

Dear Mac, I would hope you actually believed IRANIANS who come here to tell you about their culture. Norooz simply means a New day. It has always been used as a name to refer to the new year. But the Zoroastrian Newyear is not the same as the Norooz that is celebrated by us today. Chaharshanbe Suri is not allowed and has nothing to do with Norooz. You are confusing various things. What is allowed and what is not. You have also completely neglected (like many people here that seem to have an agenda) to refer to the scholar on channel 2.

Don't like to quip, but that means "we were mushrik, we were not idol worshippers" (it doesn't say they were not kuffar). It is not however the same as Chrisitianity as the Christians profess to believe in one God (though their understanding of that is corrupt), while the ancient Persians believed in many. If I'm remembering right, they are considered Ahl Shubh al-Kitab (somewhat different from Ahl al-Kitab), not quite on the same level in fiqh as Christians and Jews are.

I don't understand what you are trying to argue here. What you are writing are from some sites obviously, and are part of a deliberate revisionism. Persians were considered Ahlal-Ketab and this is undisputed by the vast majority Iranian scholars. Zoroastrians, like the Christians were engaged in peace agreements and their temples protected. Zoroastrians also only believed in one god, but believed that God had an evil rival. So it is actually more monotheistic than Christianity, who see Jesus as part of a trinity, something that has been argued even in the Quran and the way it has been distorted. What Abbasi is talking about is that the Koffar were the Arabs, who were forced into Islam after the conquest of Mecca. But this is ofcourse not the case in Persia and other countries that adhered to monotheist values, even though their ideas of monotheism was distorted, their religions were tolerated. (Richard frye is a good source for this)

But this is not our discussion. I would like to stay on topic.

It's the spring equinox, or thereabouts... How different do you think it can be?

You have difficulty seperating science from your religious ideology. The Jalali calendar is NOT based on Zoroastrianism, it actually has more in common with Islam but even has little to do with that either. It was based on the scientific evidence that was provided by a mathematician and series of scientist who were to follow him. The "Norooz calendar" you seem to passionately argue against, is more accurate than the western calendar you daily follow. It is still observed today because of this with even more accuracy by the Islamic republic.

Brother perhaps you dont think it has a lofty position but most Iranians give it huge importance, much more then most islamic events.

This is not true, something that cannot be proven through any statistics, I argue Ramadan is more popular. But even if we took your word for granted, some people prefer to play soccer more than do something more Islamic, it is a pity but not haram.

on which day do zoroastrians celebrate noruz in modern times?

Brother, i suggest you really give this question a deep thought. Because today there are not many people let alone zoroastrians that can trace the day of newyear from Pre-islamic times and follow it. This would actually be quite dumb.

Edited by Rubaiyat
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Brother, i suggest you really give this question a deep thought. Because today there are not many people let alone zoroastrians that can trace the day of newyear from Pre-islamic times and follow it. This would actually be quite dumb.

If what you say is true then how can you justify your previous statement: "The Norooz of Zoroastrianism was on another calendar, another celebration. Not the same as today."

brother anyone can see that shia persians still practice some zoroastrian traditions and events.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_festivals

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:Hijabi: Wikipedia. Please do not waste my time.\

Muhammad Ali, all of the proof you have given so far indicate that Norooz is not haram at all. It is a cultural celebration by us of Persian sciences, it cannot be banned. It has nothing to do with you. You may call this zoroastrianism, koufr, etc. But at the end of the day just about any high ranking Iranian cleric has not banned it. Chahar Shanbe Suri has Mithra and pre-Zoroastrian roots.

This is becoming very annoying because now your source is pulled out, which also has nothing to do with anything academic but much rather what little kids who are 16 can write on. From a theological viewpoint on the belief of God himself, in Islam we do not consider Ahlol Ketab the same as Koffar. Koffar is atheist in modern terms while Ahlol Ketab is a monotheist with distorted influences. Big difference. Muhammad Ali, you don't need to point out to us what is Halal or Haram. Iran is a very old and ancient country with a lot of culture and we have hundreds of thousands of Shiite scholars that can let us know what is and is not allowed. Norooz is absolutely allowed.

Edited by Rubaiyat
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Nowrooz of today has absolutely NOTHING to do with Zoroastrianism. It has to do with Omar Khayyam's calendar and he did not relate any of his research on Zoroastrianism at all with regards to this being the first day of the month.

Also, Nino, Zoroastrianism was Moshrek (polytheistic), like Dr. Hassan Abbasi said "Moshrek budim, bot parast nabudim" (we were polytheists, but not koffar) But this polytheism is the same as polytheism of Christianity of course and accepted as ahlol Ketab. But this topic has nothing to do with Zartosht.

http://english.iribnews.ir/IranVision_body.aspx?ID=92 (doa Nowrooz taught by prophet Mohammad)

http://www2.irib.ir/occasions/noroz/En/Nor...0of%20Islam.HTM (norooz at the advent of Islam)

dear Rubaiyat , why do you persist on Omar Khayyam's calendar, we know that before islam we celebrated nouroz , specially we have proofs in Sasani time . so was Khaiam on that time !

if you mean they were Mushrek because of to gad they had ( Ahora mazda and Ahriman ) i think we need more research and trusty evidence to continue our discussion , but now please tell me do you accept him as an prophet ?

BTW , NOWROOZ MOBARAK :)

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