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In the Name of God بسم الله

Versus used by shias shown in true context

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(bismillah)

(salam)

These are the verses shias use to say that Authority to choose a caliph comes from Allah S.W.T

002.247

Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."

This is a story regarding the the Bau Isra'il and Allah appointing a king over them but when those who were rejecting this, Allah says Allah will place over them a king. The word in the ayah is not sultan but Mulk. This is not related to the ahkam of the Ruling system of Islam.

003.151

Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

006.081

And how should I fear what you have set up (with Him), while you do not fear that you have set up with Allah that for which He has not sent down to you any authority; which then of the two parties is surer of security, if you know?

Authority here is talking about proof ie they associated partners with Allah without any proof ie authorization to do so. Again, not related to the ahkam of the Ruling system of Islam.

006.089

These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.

The word Hukm, ie laws, is used in this ayah, not Sultan ie authority. Again, not related to the ahkam of the Ruling system of Islam.

7.010

It is We Who have placed you with authority on earth, and provided you therein with means for the fulfilment of your life: small are the thanks that ye give!

This ayah is also not talking about sultan again but about Allah putting all his bounties for man's disposal for his benefit.

007.033

Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

007.071

He said: "Punishment and wrath have already come upon you from your Lord: dispute ye with me over names which ye have devised - ye and your fathers,- without authority from Allah? then wait: I am amongst you, also waiting."

Authority as in no proof for false gods.

011.096

And we sent Moses, with Our Clear (Signs) and an authority manifest,

Allah is saying he sent Moses with proofs to Pharoah ie of his prophethood - nothing to do with Islamic ruling system.

012.040

"If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah: He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not...

Authority as in proof again.

012.055

He said: Place me (in authority) over the treasures of the land, surely I am a good keeper, knowing well.

In another story of past prophets, in this one, Yusuf is asking the King of Egypt to put him in charge over the store houses of food.

In short, the verss above are nothing to do with the ruling system and the condition of the Ummah having the autjority to appoint the caliph.

There are many different authorities:

1) The Man/husband has authority in his house

2) Ummah has Authority to appoint and remove khalif

3) The Khalif has the authority to rule by Allah's Law

4) Allah has authority over the worlds and everything in them

etc etc

Each of these has a set of these are based on different verses of the Quran and the Sunnah. The verses quoted refer to number 4 in my list and have nothing to do with number 1,2 or 3.

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Without going into detail refutation, read what happens when people chose their leaders....

By Bro avjar (probably not shia), Mar 10 2009, 04:22 PM Post #8.

bn Abbas said: A lunatic woman who had committed adultery was brought to umar. He consulted the people and ordered that she should be stoned. Ali ibn Abu Talib passed by and said: What is the matter with this (woman)? They said: This is a lunatic woman belonging to a certain family. She has committed adultery. Umar has given orders that she should be stoned. He said: Take her back. He then came to him and said: Commander of the Faithful, do you not know that there are three people whose actions are not recorded: a lunatic till he is restored to reason, a sleeper till he awakes, and a boy till he reaches puberty? He said: Yes. He then asked: Why is it that this woman is being stoned? He said: There is nothing. He then said: Let her go. He (Umar) let her go and began to utter: Allah is most great. Sunan Abu Dawud Book #38, Hadith #4385

Umar also stoned a pregnant woman to death, Ali got there after the event and didn't have the chance to intervene.

Now, don't you think that the successor of the Prophet of the creator of the universe would be better versed in fiqh than this man? Umar possessed no understanding of the deen, and the successor of the Prophet should be a learned, moderate, and just person. The Prophet never patrolled the streets with a whip! What an unjust and draconian person Umar was, and completely unlearned. Can you really believe this narration in Bukhari after knowing about this?

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "While I was sleeping, I saw that a cup full of milk was brought to me and I drank my fill till I noticed (the milk) its wetness coming out of my nails. Then I gave the remaining milk to 'Umar Ibn Al-Khattab" The companions of the Prophet asked, "What have you interpreted (about this dream)? "O Allah's Apostle!," he replied, "(It is religious) knowledge." Book #3, Hadith #82

Ali had much more knowledge than Umar.

Another ...

Mar 1 2009, 07:45 PM Post #20.

Hm I also just noticed it says that Umar "consulted the people." Why would the head of the ummah have to consult the "people" about a simple case? Wouldn't the Prophet have guaranteed that knowledge of all affairs of this nature would be transmitted to someone? We see here that the sahaba, who he was obviously consulting with, agreed with him that she should be stoned! Look at Abdullah ibn Umar, who the Sunnis revere as some faqih, who said this as recorded in the Muwatta:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that a slave of Abdullah ibn Umar stole while he was a runaway. Abdullah ibn Umar sent him to Said ibn al-As, who was the amir of Madina, to cut off his hand. Said refused to cut off his hand. He said, "The hand of a runaway slave is not cut off when he steals." Abdullah ibn Umar said to him, "In what book of Allah did you find this?" Then Abdullah ibn Umar gave the order, and his hand was cut off. Book #41, Hadith #41.8.26

Is the "book of Allah," the only thing that we find juristic rulings in? The hand of the slave isn't cut off because the slave is property of someone else! Yet, this is the guy who the Sunnis rely on as some infallible jurisprudent just due to the fact that he lived during the Prophet's lifetime. Yet we see that the majority of the "sahaba" agreed with Umar's verdict, despite it being wrong! Why would the ruler have to consult people anyway? Why did he not possess the legal knowledge on his own and be able to rule on it? And when Ali asked him about the hadith, he said yes I know it! So either he was lying and didn't know it (sort of grave for the head of a state in charge of meting out punishments), or he knew it but was too incompetent to apply it to the situation. And furthermore it shows that the companions could have wrong and mistaken conceptions of fiqh, yet the Sunnis follow the companions in their legal rulings and actions as if by the fact that they lived during the time of the Prophet their views constitute some kind of consensus and right mode of behavior that if followed you can't go astray. In any matter of fiqh Ali was the most knowledgeable. It's like...Anas ibn Malik relates over 1000 hadiths in Sahih Bukhari and they rely on him for hundreds of legal judgments...but in Sahih Bukhari it says he was with Yazid when the head of Hussein was brought to him and he was with him when he tapped it with a wand! Would you accept your fiqh from someone who was not only with Yazid, not with the master of the youth of paradise, was like 100 years old, and could have easily been duped into fabricating hadiths? Not only was he wrong in the first place and on the wrong side, but he was probably taken advantage of as well! I think he was!

Yahya related to me from Malik from Humayd at-Tawil that anas ibn Malik said, "I stood behind Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman and none of them used to recite 'In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate' when they began the prayer." Muwatta Book #3, Hadith #3.7.31

Why didn't he just say, "I stood behind the Prophet and he didn't say..." Why include Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman???? And why is Ali missing??? Of course this was subtly corrected in the later versions of the hadith, but you can see that they wanted to change the sunnah to counter Ali and play up the roles of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman!

Ali was the only one among the sahaba fit enough in knowledge and intellect to issue any kind of ruling.

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1) The Man/husband has authority in his house

2) Ummah has Authority to appoint and remove khalif

3) The Khalif has the authority to rule by Allah's Law

4) Allah has authority over the worlds and everything in them

etc etc

What verses are you using to come come to conclusion # 2?

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What verses are you using to come come to conclusion # 2?

He doesn't a clue and I can almost guarantee he won't respond with anything relevant on this. He is a Cut & Paste Expert Grade 2 working towards a Grade 1. Starts numerous threads filled with waffle from anti-shia sites then once his bluff is called he moves on to another thread.

People like him waste time & space. This sub-forum is called Sunni/Shia Dialogue but I don't think he knows that, has mistaken it for an on-line garbage depository.

ALI

Edited by Kismet110
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Just leave what Shias assert about those Quranic verses and try to proove that Khilafat is from Allah only. Tell me a "SINGLE VERSE OF QURAN" which prooves your view about Khilafat that "KHALIFAH IS ELECTED OR APPOINTED BY PEOPLE?

I promise, that when you will give the reply i shall be the first to convert to Sunni :)

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He doesn't have a clue and I can almost guarantee he won't respond with anything relevant on this. This sub-forum is called Sunni/Shia Dialogue but I don't think he knows that, has mistaken it for an on-line garbage depository.

ALI

LOL

Lets pray he has something up his sleeve inshallah.

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Just leave what Shias assert about those Quranic verses and try to proove that Khilafat is from Allah only. Tell me a "SINGLE VERSE OF QURAN" which prooves your view about Khilafat that "KHALIFAH IS ELECTED OR APPOINTED BY PEOPLE?

I promise, that when you will give the reply i shall be the first to convert to Sunni :)

Yusuf Ali 28:68 Thy Lord does create and choose as He pleases: no choice have they (in the matter): Glory to Allah! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!

i find that to be pretty clear.

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i dont get it,topics like this are supposed to be on april 1st right?

LOL. Offcourse April Fool

Yusuf Ali 28:68 Thy Lord does create and choose as He pleases: no choice have they (in the matter): Glory to Allah! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!

i find that to be pretty clear.

Jazak Allah brother :)

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Do you have any evidence at all? Sources where you got this from? Tafaseer? If not, then this topic is made to fail.

If I have no reference and the tafsir says differently then bring it and come to discuss, you shias use these verses out of context and when someone points it out to you then the truth prevails and you cant expose.

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Anyone heard of CONTEXT

(247. And their Prophet said to them, "Indeed Allah has appointed Talut (Saul) as a king over you.'' They said, "How can he be a king over us when we are fitter than him for the kingdom, and he has not been given enough wealth.'' He said: "Verily, Allah has chosen him above you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah grants His kingdom to whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.'')

When the Israelites asked their Prophet to appoint a king over them, he appointed Talut (Saul), who was then a soldier. But, Talut was not a descendant of the house of kings among them, which was exclusively in the offspring of Yahudha (Judah). This is why they said:

﴿Ãóäøóì íóßõæäõ áóåõ Çáúãõáúßõ ÚóáóíúäóÇ﴾

(How can he be a king over us) meaning, how can he be the king for us,

﴿æóäóÍúäõ ÃóÍóÞøõ ÈöÇáúãõáúßö ãöäúåõ æóáóãú íõÄúÊó ÓóÚóÉð ãøöäó ÇáúãóÇáö﴾

(when we are fitter than him for the kingdom, and he has not been given enough wealth) They said that Talut was also poor and did not have the wealth that justifies him being king. Some people stated that Talut used to bring water to the people, while others stated that his profession was dyeing skins. The Jews, thus, disputed with their Prophet while they were supposed to obey him and to say good words to him.

Their Prophet answered them:

﴿Åöäøó Çááøóåó ÇÕúØóÝóÜåõ Úóáóíúßõãú﴾

(Verily, Allah has chosen him above you) meaning, `Allah chose Talut from amongst you while having better knowledge about him.' Their Prophet stated, "I did not choose Talut to be your king on my own. Rather, Allah has commanded that upon your request.'' Further:

﴿æóÒóÇÏóåõ ÈóÓúØóÉð Ýöí ÇáúÚöáúãö æóÇáúÌöÓúãö﴾

(...and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature.) meaning, `Talut is more knowledgeable and honorable than you, and stronger and more patient during combat, and has more knowledge of warfare. In short, he has more knowledge and is stronger than you are. The king should have sufficient knowledge, be fair looking and should have a strong soul and body.' He then said:

﴿æóÇááøóåõ íõÄúÊöì ãõáúßóåõ ãóä íóÔóÂÁõ﴾

(And Allah grants His kingdom to whom He wills.) meaning, Allah Alone is the Supreme Authority Who does what He wills and no one can ask Him about His actions, while they will be asked (about their actions by Him). This is because Allah has perfect knowledge, wisdom and kindness with His creation. Allah said:

﴿æóÇááøóåõ æóÓöÚñ Úóáöíãñ﴾

(And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.) meaning, His favor is encompassing and He grants His mercy to whom He wills. He also knows those who deserve to be kings and those who do not deserve it.

﴿æóÞóÇáó áóåõãú äöÈöíøõåõãú Åöäøó ÁóÇíóÉó ãõáúßöåö Ãóä íóÃúÊöíóßõãõ ÇáÊøóÇÈõæÊõ Ýöíåö ÓóßöíäóÉñ ãøöä ÑøóÈøößõãú æóÈóÞöíøóÉñ ãøöãøóÇ ÊóÑóßó ÁóÇáõ ãõæÓóì æóÁóÇáõ åóÜÑõæäó ÊóÍúãöáõåõ ÇáúãóáóÜÆößóÉõ Åöäøó Ýöí Ðóáößó áÃóíóÉð áøóßõãú Åöä ßõäÊõã ãøõÄúãöäöíäó ﴾

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