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UndercoverBrother

Jihad for love (Astagfirullah)

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Salaam

Did anyone else watch that propaganda aimed at creating fitna which was entitled Jihad for love and was showing homosexuals across the muslim world and the worse was when they showed Iran and they were showing Ashura whilst they were interviewing a Gay and also throughout NOUZOBILLAH they included recitation of the Quran and had Adhan playing while these men and women were lying down and showing their love for each other and being interviewed.

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"you can be gay, and still a good muslim"

LOL, a good muslim is a mulsim who obeys the rules of Allah tabaraka wa ta'ala and the teachings of the prophet (s.a.w.w.)...

it said that marriage is half of the religion,

a marriage is defined by a male marrying a female...

homosexuality first started with the people of Lot (pbuh), when satan taught males how to "have fun" with other males...

so it's more of rules of Allah vs teachings of satan

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I have a serious question. Do gay couples in Islam perform the marriage ceremony (it would be fornication otherwise)? Who performs it?

Documentaries like this make me really sad.

There's no marriage for homosexuals in Islam. Sexually active homosexuals do a whole plethora of sins and major sins. You cannot be called a good Muslim while doing all these sins.

http://www.ajihadforlove.com/.

I was there when it opened in Boston before anywhere else and got to meet so many wonderful people, including the director and the South African imam featured in the film.

It was a beautiful film.

The trailer is at

.

Previously I thought you were dodgy but not that dodgy. I hope you're not Shia.

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Absolutely sickening,

One of the arguments by Dr Cameron on homosexuality is that it has always been resented and disliked by mankind from the very earliest civilization. The body similarly rejects penetration of a man by another man. In Islam there is no room for this kind of behaviour nor in the modern world. The only real accepted form of Homosexuality was practiced among the rich because they had so many female harem's they became bored sexually with them and wanted to try something new.

Edited by Rubaiyat

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There's no marriage for homosexuals in Islam. Sexually active homosexuals do a whole plethora of sins and major sins. You cannot be called a good Muslim while doing all these sins.

No, of course you can not be considered married in Islam if you are homosexual. I am trying to understand how they justify everything.

Anyway, probably a moot point.

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LOL yes I am Shi'i, and you guys make the most ridiculous arguments without even having seen it. You should watch it if you want to judge it.

Also, I'm dodgy?? What do you mean, dodgy?

Also, as an observation: you guys always assume SAME SEX LOVE is about someone putting a man's thing in someone's rear. Not only are there lesbians (who, in fiqh, don't even get noticed), but gay people don't automatically engage in sodomy. You are thinking gay men are like a female-male couple, but that's not correct.

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Úber fail! You're the one with the ridiculous arguments. I've seen a similar documentarys so I know what to expect.

Umm, what forms of same sex love activities can you think of that are halal? There are none. Sexually active gay people eventually engage in sodomy, they start off with other things... let's not get into the nitty gritty of how homosexuals pleasure each other.

We all acknowledge the crimes of homosexuality is not in the feelings they have for people of the same sex but it's when they engage in an active form of homosexuality that they become criminals in the eyes of the government and sinners in the eyes of the Lord.

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Umm, what forms of same sex love activities can you think of that are halal? There are none. Sexually active gay people eventually engage in sodomy, they start off with other things... let's not get into the nitty gritty of how homosexuals pleasure each other.
A Jihad for Love isn't about the bed, by the way: it's about committed, practicising Muslims who struggle with being gay.

I have no qualms discussing the facts of marital life. It's no different than any other topic unless you are being salacious about it. But if you can't manage it, then that's fine.

I will say that I have very many gay male friends and they don't all "end up" engaging in sodomy, nor do lesbians require some kind of false male part to have sex. These ideas come from a confusion on the part of straight persons who think only of how they have sex.

The real question is if love is real, why gay couples cannot get married; in the marital bed, sex is licit. However, they cannot get married, so naturally they are blamed as sinners because they only have "a partner" and therefore their sex is illicit!

This despite the fact that in places where gay marriage is legal, gay couples have a LOWER rate of divorce than straight couples.

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A Jihad for Love isn't about the bed, by the way: it's about committed, practicising Muslims who struggle with being gay.

I have no qualms discussing the facts of marital life. It's no different than any other topic unless you are being salacious about it. But if you can't manage it, then that's fine.

I will say that I have very many gay male friends and they don't all "end up" engaging in sodomy, nor do lesbians require some kind of false male part to have sex. These ideas come from a confusion on the part of straight persons who think only of how they have sex.

The real question is if love is real, why gay couples cannot get married; in the marital bed, sex is licit. However, they cannot get married, so naturally they are blamed as sinners because they only have "a partner" and therefore their sex is illicit!

This despite the fact that in places where gay marriage is legal, gay couples have a LOWER rate of divorce than straight couples.

(bismillah)

Just curious Cypress, do you feel that homosexuality is a sin in Islam or just the act of sodomy?

Do you believe that gay marriages should be allowed in Islamic governments?

Do you believe that the imam of our time would approve of any such activity?

I am just wanting to better understand your view. If you have any marja or sources to back up your assertion, that would be nice too.

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Salaam,

I understand the point from which Cypress is coming from, it was indeed a very insightful documentary. Nothing to be squeamish or scared about.

It was clear that these were real people from various walks of life.

Wasalaam

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Just curious Cypress, do you feel that homosexuality is a sin in Islam or just the act of sodomy?

Do you believe that gay marriages should be allowed in Islamic governments?

Do you believe that the imam of our time would approve of any such activity?

I am just wanting to better understand your view. If you have any marja or sources to back up your assertion, that would be nice too.

Homosexuality is not a sin. How can a state of being be a sin?

I think gay marriages should be allowed, yes. How else can love be made licit between partners? I know very many couples who have been together their whole lives and yet get treated as second-class citizens when they try to see their partner in the hospital - "family only". They have children, but have to adopt them separately because they cannot adopt as a legal couple. They cannot get respect or the benefits a family deserves without the rights of marriage. They deserve it.

I think the Imam of the Time approves.

I do not have a marja', I have an Imam. (I am an Ismaili.)

I would remind those who are skeptical that before the principles were elucidated, it was widely understood that transgenderism was against the Sharii3ah. Then the 12ers, followed by other sects including Sunni ones (al-Azhar, for example), recognised the legitimacy of transsexuality. First one to issue a fatwah? Ayatollah Khomeini, 1982.

Confusion about what a transgendered person was meant there was no clear law on the subject until Khomeini sat down and sorted it through.

The same is true about same-sex relationships. I am confident that a marja' will sit down and clarify the distinction between illicit sex and partnership, confusion and clarity.

The Imam-e Zaman (according to Ismaili belief) is doing such a thing at this very moment. (He is also providing a fiqh guideline for Ismaili namaaz, which was not updated since Alamut - Ismailis haven't prayed namaaz daily since then by custom, but that is changing.) The times change, new understandings and situations arise, and whether you are Ismaili, 12er, Zaydi or Sunni, law must be established to deal with the situations not dealt with before.

Before, societies were tribal and about families. Now things have changed, and so the law must recognise these new situations.

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Hmm...I don't think I can follow you that far.

The distinction between the attraction and acts is important, as is the distinction between the person and the act. As would an change of approach from a penal approach of trying to identify people so as to condemn and punish them to a medical approach of diagnosing and treating a sickness in a compassionate way, through different forms of therapy (psychotherapy, drug and/or hormone treatment, etc)

But just accepting it as normal? I don't see it.

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Ohh Ismailliites. Ok now i understand. You can say everything...
Don't be like that, it's not true. We have fiqh and rulings by which we abide that are firmly grounded in sharii3ah. You are confusing extreme satpanth works used to convert Hindus with mainstream Ismaili practice. Ginans are not the same as practice, and not nearly all Ismailis are from India or Indian origin.

Besides, I have a clear respect for the 12er fiqh process and I always reference 12er fatawah and maraja' when discussion subjects because this is a 12er site. Do you have any real criticism to the process of thought I have provided, or are you just trolling?

My analysis stands. There are situations where new law is made; a clear parallel is that of transgendered folk being accepted, starting with Khomeini and later independent fatawah being issued by other maraja' and by various Sunnis, including al-Azhar.

Do you deny this?

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Hmm...I don't think I can follow you that far.

The distinction between the attraction and acts is important, as is the distinction between the person and the act. As would an change of approach from a penal approach of trying to identify people so as to condemn and punish them to a medical approach of diagnosing and treating a sickness in a compassionate way, through different forms of therapy (psychotherapy, drug and/or hormone treatment, etc)

But just accepting it as normal? I don't see it.

I completely agree with this, but the problem is that a lot of people no longer see homosexuality as an abnormal act. If someone who has homosexual tendancies wanted to change OR felt an inclination that it was wrong, then to not help such people would be criminal. But if a person does accept it as normal and does not want to be "diagnosed" and "treated" there is nowhere we can go from there.

And, I believe that it's a spiritual sickness, and only love for Allah (swt) can truly change a person- not just in terms of sexuality, but in every single way a person can be changed.

Don't be like that, it's not true. We have fiqh and rulings by which we abide that are firmly grounded in sharii3ah. You are confusing extreme satpanth works used to convert Hindus with mainstream Ismaili practice. Ginans are not the same as practice, and not nearly all Ismailis are from India or Indian origin.

Besides, I have a clear respect for the 12er fiqh process and I always reference 12er fatawah and maraja' when discussion subjects because this is a 12er site. Do you have any real criticism to the process of thought I have provided, or are you just trolling?

My analysis stands. There are situations where new law is made; a clear parallel is that of transgendered folk being accepted, starting with Khomeini and later independent fatawah being issued by other maraja' and by various Sunnis, including al-Azhar.

Do you deny this?

The thing is, I think we have to understand how Imam Khomeini came up with this fatwa. I don't think he just decided because times were changing (otherwise, he would have said hijab was no longer necessary). I believe there is a hadith where someone came to Imam Ali (as) who had ambiguous genitalia, and Imam Ali (as) somehow declared the person a male or female based on certain criteria and told people to treat them as such (I don't remember the details). I believe he used ijtihad then to state that a person can choose their sex and be treated as such. However, there are very clear laws forbidding homosexuality in Islam, and in the Quran, there are very clear ayats about this. I think the situation is completely different.

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Regardless of what the content of the video is. This idea is completely false and based on improvisations. Some of our friends during their childhood may remember the "Look once is Halal" rule, where some of us would look once at a girl and keep our eyes fixed on her so it would remain halal and we could look as long as we wanted at her. This was naive of us ofcourse.

According to the Shi'ite sources, there is a tradition. It says that he was a very handsome young boy and the Holy Prophet was riding, probably on a camel. A woman from the Khasamiyyah tribe came to ask the Holy Prophet a question. She asked and the Holy Prophet answered. Then the Holy Prophet realized that her eyes were fixed upon Fazl ibn 'Abbas and Fazl ibn 'Abbas was staring at her. The tradition states that the Holy Prophet turned Fazl's face away saying, "A young woman and a young man, I am afraid satan will enter." Sahih Bukhari, vol. 8, p.63. (Used by Mutahhari in his book Islamic Hejab)

The act of looking at a woman out of interest of her physical appearance, etc. is not even allowed according to Mutahhari. Now we have some people here saying Homosexuals loving each other is allowed! Marriage is allowed between them! Let us be clear that the Imam Rahel (Khomeini) did not allow Homosexuality. He allowed transexual operations but NOT for homosexuals. This was for people who felt being a man or a woman was a burden, socially, physically etc. and this only becomes halal after a large testing/examination period. Homsexuality, in the way of looking, touching, penetrating other men is absolutely preposterous.

According to Freud, human beings learn their sexual preferences after they are born. So Homosexually according to him is something you can Learn through various social variables. But it can also be discouraged and taken away. This is why in Iran we have special people who treat this kind of mentality. It is something shunned in our society, among our families, friends, and throughout human civilization.

Edited by Rubaiyat

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Come on guys. Easy.

Thank you Kadhim. It seems like we are all to often quick to lay condemnation on others.

As an Ismai'ili, I would like to correct some of the false impression you all may have acquired from Cypress's posts. The Ismaili madhab does not view homosexual relationships as legitimate and no homosexual couple has ever performed a nikah inside our jamaat khanas and nor do I think they ever will. That being said, I believe we should take the lead of our beloved Prophet and Imams and approach the issue with the utmost compassion. Demonization of people because they do not have the good fortune of being able to feel attracted to the opposite sex is not the way forward. The institution of marriage is a wise and sacred gift preserved for us by our forefathers and should not be weakened or thrown away. However, in defense of this tradition, we should not lose our tradition of compassion in the process.

Peace!

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As an Ismai'ili, I would like to correct some of the false impression you all may have acquired from Cypress's posts. The Ismaili madhab does not view homosexual relationships as legitimate and no homosexual couple has ever performed a nikah inside our jamaat khanas and nor do I think they ever will.
To be fair, I said nothing of the sort. I merely said my own opinion. The Aqa Khan has issued no opinions on homosexuality whatsoever and I never claimed the Ismailis celebrate gay marriage. It is a literal non-issue. I did say that there will be a new namaaz fiqh specific for Ismaili namaaz. Along with it will be a nikah that is in alignment with the more widespread Shi'i format.
That being said, I believe we should take the lead of our beloved Prophet and Imams and approach the issue with the utmost compassion. Demonization of people because they do not have the good fortune of being able to feel attracted to the opposite sex is not the way forward. The institution of marriage is a wise and sacred gift preserved for us by our forefathers and should not be weakened or thrown away. However, in defense of this tradition, we should not lose our tradition of compassion in the process.
Again, it is my personal beliefs I am discussing. The Imam-e Zaman has not issued anything on this issue.

As for the issue of tolerance, I would observe that the Ismaili community is renowned for its compassion and generosity worldwide. We seek no conversions and force no-one, unlike the Salafis and Deobandis; we accept pluralism and that all Muslims are our sisters and brothers; we are quietist and seek no rulership over others, just like Ja'far (in fact, like all the 12er A'immah); we provide one of the largest charitable organizations supporting Muslims in the entire world, far surpassing that of any other group. The Agha Khan Development Network has a $300 million yearly budget that goes directly into building health care, infrastructure and educational programs all over Africa, the Middle East, South America, Asia etc. That's per annum.

No matter what you think of our choice of Imam, we should at least be given politeness for our high level of individual respect for the rights of all people and our work to alleviate poverty, suffering, ignorance and injustice.

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Contrary to what Cypress says Homosexuality is NOT a state of being it's a state of mind. I once watch a documentary about some Jewish men who were so devout and so involved with their faith, but they had the misfortune of feeling they were attracted to other men. You know what they did? They got married to women and spent hundreds of dollars on medicationand counselling (by Jewish psychiatrists) to cure themselves of the lust they felt for other men. And they were happy- they knew what they felt was a sin, they dealt with it and they carried on with what they truly loved- their faith. Being homosexual is not natural so how can it be a state of being? If homosexuality were treated in this way people could be open and honest about how they felt, they could get the help they need rather than feeling outcast by their religion. We as muslim's should encourage people to be honest about things like this, we should welcome homosexuals to express how they feel and then help them through it.

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I disagree. Scientific studies of the "ex-gay" movement have found that degaying doesn't work. The result is high rates of suicide and what I guess you'd call "redicidivism": even the directors of some of the most prominent and touted programs have left in disgrace because they eventually all give up and say they never were cured in the first place. When the leaders and pushers of these communities even give up, what does that say?

Certainly all reputable psychological associations - the APA, for example - refute all claims that you can degay someone.

Besides, what was it that causes people from all ethnicities, all social groups and all faiths to fall in love with members of the same sex? My family upbringing was textbook good, I was not the subject of any bad sexual things, I was a normal child in a faithful, loving family, neither rich nor poor, a member of the scouting organisation, with no crises or horrors. My father is a great role-model, my mother as well, and they are still married happily. So what, exactly, "gayed" me?

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A 'gay-muslim' is a contradiction in terms. There is no way anyone can profess to being both gay and muslim- it's as ludicrous as saying you're a Theravada Buddhist and a member of the Church of Satan all at the same time. It would be much more admirable to admit that being gay is against the fundamental principles of Islam. Forget the interpretations of these so called learned people, based on the Quran there is no way on earth anyone who has even a basic knowledge of our faith can say that homosexuality is accepted.

Edited by Lisa_Mafia

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cypress are you a dude or a girl? cos i always thought you were a sister. is sis smiley right in saying that you were transgender and had a sex change operation? if so...the rules are different for u.

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cypress are you a dude or a girl? cos i always thought you were a sister. is sis smiley right in saying that you were transg ender and had a sex change operation? if so...the rules are different for u.
I am a woman. And yes, I am also a transwoman.

The thing about being a transwoman is that you were never male before. That's the entire predication of the fatawah. I was never a boy, although I might have appeared to be. You also are required to undergo a battery of examinations to prove that you are trans and not crazy or self-hating or whatever: certifiably trans. Takes over a year of testing.

My family situation was still entirely normal, as was my upbringing.

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I am a woman. And yes, I am also a transwoman.

The thing about being a transwoman is that you were never male before. That's the entire predication of the fatawah. I was never a boy, although I might have appeared to be. You also are required to undergo a battery of examinations to prove that you are trans and not crazy or self-hating or whatever: certifiably trans. Takes over a year of testing.

My family situation was still entirely normal, as was my upbringing.

sister as far as i can remember, you do not deserve anyones scorn, or any supposed punishment. you have committed no sin, nor are you classed as "gay". "gay" is the social thing, not the biological one.

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I am a woman. And yes, I am also a transwoman.

The thing about being a transwoman is that you were never male before. That's the entire predication of the fatawah. I was never a boy, although I might have appeared to be. You also are required to undergo a battery of examinations to prove that you are trans and not crazy or self-hating or whatever: certifiably trans. Takes over a year of testing.

My family situation was still entirely normal, as was my upbringing.

Just to intervene for a second to help assist the communication, remember to define your terms in talkign about matters like this. Most Muslims, as you are likely aware, don't read gender theory texts and are not aware of a difference between sex (the pole of boy/girl to which a person is most identified given physical characteristics) and gender (the set of socio-behavioral norms associated with and socially reinforced for each sex, maleness and femaleness).

So you have had MTF sex reassignment surgery with hormone therapy and the whole deal?

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Just to add in regards to Ismailites being somehow different or more liberal. Maybe, just maybe it is not widely noted in the Ismaili textbooks because the concept of Homosexual behaviour and the preference for other men in general has been completely shunned directly by the Quran.

Soura 7:80-81 but also 27:54-55

027.054

YUSUFALI: (We also sent) Lut (as a messenger): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?

027.055

YUSUFALI: Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!

The sources and observations for this have also not been made by Sunnites or Shiites alone, but much rather also the non-Muslim Islamic expert Dr. prof. Hans Jansen (and chairman of the Cairo institute of Arabic studies) in his book "Islam for pigs, monkeys, donkeys and other animals." page 163.

Edited by Rubaiyat

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Not only are there lesbians (who, in fiqh, don't even get noticed)

Not really. Here's a whole discussion on ÇáÓÍÞ (referring to the act itself I mean):

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=5512

It's even mentioned in a mursal narration in your own book of hadith, Da`aim al-Islam (I say "your own" since you now appear to be identifying yourself as an Ismaili):

(1603) æÚäå (Ú) Ãäå ÞÇá: ÇáÓÍÞ Ýí ÇáäÓÇÁ ßÇááæÇØ Ýí ÇáÑÌÇá. æáßä Ýíå ÌáÏ ãÇÆÉ¡ áÇäå áíÓ Ýíå ÅíáÇÌ

"And from him (as) that he said: As-sihaq in women is as sodomy in men, except that there is a hundred lashes in it for there is no penetration in it."

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