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In the Name of God بسم الله

Syed Baqir Nisar Zaidi

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Allah Ali s.a. Madad

Momineen karam

Syed Baqir Nisar Zaidi..

yes he wrote many of Books..

.........

but Many Shia Brothers say that No one Know about His Books..

no this is wong..

About 60% of Shia Community in Pakistan already know the BOOKS of Syed Baqir Nisar Zaidi.

as well as Ulema...

.................

but my question is why No One Gave Answer to His Books?????????

his book easily download from this site:

www.hubeali.com

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The book is not really convincing. Many of his arguments are based on weak narrations.

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assalamoallaikom

i m thankful to you that you have given me the opportunity to speak up my mind about so many issues

and to tell u the very truth , hardly five or six months back on the same very shiachat , i had a discussion with brother siratoalihaqqun , now the funny thing is that at that time i was in place of you asking him these questions as i was usooli at that time

anyways

since it is very difficult for me to speak about each and every issue because of the lack of knowledge ,

which i have admitted before..........

so i would like to give u some principles

the first is

my dear the concept of obedience and disobedience applies only when there is an order of imam ........

if there is no order , we cannot say that mr xyz has obeyed or not

like say we take one of your question

eating choclates....right

do we have any hadeeth about eating choclates ......

i mean in the sense

that imam had said that u must eat choclates , it brings thawab....

or say imam had said that u should avoid choclate , it is a sin

do we find any such hadeeth?

let us suppose that there is a hadeeth which prohibits it

now whosoever will eat choclate , he will be disobeying imam......

am i right?

and whosoever will not eat it , he will be obeying imam

am i right?

now but the point is what then if there is no hadeeth or order of imam ?

let us now assume that there is no hadeeth and

say i m eating choclate , can u say ,

"well ali u r disobeying imam"

now can u say that ,when there is no order by imam..... of course u cannot say this .......

and that is why imam jafar said , in man la yahdaral faqih

"every thing is halal till it is not proven haram"

now coming back to your arsenal of questions

the point is my dear , can u give me ahadeeth about these things?

you just quote ahadeeth , and i ll tell u what is the order of imam

but if there are no ahadeeth , no one can give hokam about it....whatever a person or a scholar would say in such scenarios would be his personal feeling ....... not the order of imam

(u may understand it by the example of a disease which has no cure, if a disease has no cure , , do u think any doctor can cure it? afterall he reads the same very books and the treatment is not given in those ......now if the doctor says "well i think u take this medicine , it may help "............do u think this would become the treatment .......u see the doctor is himself not sure if it would work or not , so how can u be sure ........)

let me explain

you know what ijtihad is?

The great mujtahid al‑`Allamah al‑Hilli (648‑726/1250‑1325), in his work al Nihayah on usul al‑fiqh, writes: Ijtihad means employ­ment of effort for arriving at presumption with regard to a hukm of the Shari ah, in a way that is not blameworthy on account of negligence or omission.

so my dear if u see

ijtihad result in arriving at a presumption............that is u presume it to be correct

let me give u another definition

The Usuli mujtahid al‑`Amili al‑Jiba`i says: Ijtihad is the effort and endeavour of a faqih in order to arrive at presumption in regard to a hukm of the Shari`ah.

Ma'alim al‑'usul p. 232

so what i want to say is that the fatwas you are following are not the hukm , it is a presumption my dear.........that is why mujtahids say WALLAHO UL ILM, that is Allah know best.....

now the question is what should we do if there is no hukm available ?

the first thing is that if i m there

i will try not to do it.......

and if i m bound , i ll go for it in that state of compulsion ....... (since the concept of obedience and disobedience cannot apply,and also it cannot be called haram as per the saying of imam jafar )

but i will never say that well i m doing it and now it is a part of islam.....

As you are doing the Taqleed of Imam can you tell me the answers of above

are u not doing taqleed of imam?

if u r , can u tell me what imam said about these issues?

i had told u much earlier my dear that i m here to gain ilm, and to be corrected if i m wrong .......

Taqleed don’t means obey, Taqleed means you are getting knowledge from a man who knows better then you and consider as master of that subject

i m thankful to you for sharing this definition which i also use to think to be the correct one , when i was an usooli

but my dear

this is not the definition of taqleed

who told u this definition

well listen i use to follow sistani , and have his tozeehul masail at my home

if u have it then try to see what is the definition written over there

taqleed means that u follow the fatwas of a person and you do not ask him as to why he is saying so.....

this part is very important my dear

remember , u cannot ask your maraja about the basis of his fatwa.....

do u know it ?

and when u say that u consider him a master of that subject ........

tell me have u ever met your maraja?

so how can u be sure that he is the master of that subject??what do u actually know about him

please do not tell me that people say so........just think about yourself

dear brother , it is your life ............... no one can compel anyone

u r free to do whatever , but remember , u r answerable for your deeds

no one else is

my dear brother , i m an ex-usooli and i very well know that 99 percent of the people who are doing taqleed do not know who they are following, they just know the name , area and have his tozeeh ul masail...............they follow because others are following .........

now my dear listen

i m not against asking question from anyone

i have no problem in asking questions from you , or say anyone

but i do not follow fatwas

because as i said earlier

they are presumptions

i m really sorry that i could not answer your questions in totality

it is mainly because of my lack of knowledge..........

and if you have ahadeeth about these , i ll be thankful to you if you share................

and if u want to discuss them , u may have to start separate threads for each one

inshallah i ll also try to be there and there are other brothers who are quite knowledgable

we will also gain from their knowledge

if i have said anything which may have hurt u

please do forgive me

u said something about your daughter , so it means you are elder than me

so

again i would say sorry

if i have hurt u ........

and remember as a younger brother , this is my right to be corrected if i m wrong...........

please do correct me

may Allah bless u all

protect u

and give u the strenght to serve masoomen amin

assalamoallaikom

i m thankful to you that you have given me the opportunity to speak up my mind about so many issues

and to tell u the very truth , hardly five or six months back on the same very shiachat , i had a discussion with brother siratoalihaqqun , now the funny thing is that at that time i was in place of you asking him these questions as i was usooli at that time

anyways

since it is very difficult for me to speak about each and every issue because of the lack of knowledge ,

which i have admitted before..........

so i would like to give u some principles

the first is

my dear the concept of obedience and disobedience applies only when there is an order of imam ........

if there is no order , we cannot say that mr xyz has obeyed or not

like say we take one of your question

eating choclates....right

do we have any hadeeth about eating choclates ......

i mean in the sense

that imam had said that u must eat choclates , it brings thawab....

or say imam had said that u should avoid choclate , it is a sin

do we find any such hadeeth?

let us suppose that there is a hadeeth which prohibits it

now whosoever will eat choclate , he will be disobeying imam......

am i right?

and whosoever will not eat it , he will be obeying imam

am i right?

now but the point is what then if there is no hadeeth or order of imam ?

let us now assume that there is no hadeeth and

say i m eating choclate , can u say ,

"well ali u r disobeying imam"

now can u say that ,when there is no order by imam..... of course u cannot say this .......

and that is why imam jafar said , in man la yahdaral faqih

"every thing is halal till it is not proven haram"

now coming back to your arsenal of questions

the point is my dear , can u give me ahadeeth about these things?

you just quote ahadeeth , and i ll tell u what is the order of imam

but if there are no ahadeeth , no one can give hokam about it....whatever a person or a scholar would say in such scenarios would be his personal feeling ....... not the order of imam

(u may understand it by the example of a disease which has no cure, if a disease has no cure , , do u think any doctor can cure it? afterall he reads the same very books and the treatment is not given in those ......now if the doctor says "well i think u take this medicine , it may help "............do u think this would become the treatment .......u see the doctor is himself not sure if it would work or not , so how can u be sure ........)

let me explain

you know what ijtihad is?

The great mujtahid al‑`Allamah al‑Hilli (648‑726/1250‑1325), in his work al Nihayah on usul al‑fiqh, writes: Ijtihad means employ­ment of effort for arriving at presumption with regard to a hukm of the Shari ah, in a way that is not blameworthy on account of negligence or omission.

so my dear if u see

ijtihad result in arriving at a presumption............that is u presume it to be correct

let me give u another definition

The Usuli mujtahid al‑`Amili al‑Jiba`i says: Ijtihad is the effort and endeavour of a faqih in order to arrive at presumption in regard to a hukm of the Shari`ah.

Ma'alim al‑'usul p. 232

so what i want to say is that the fatwas you are following are not the hukm , it is a presumption my dear.........that is why mujtahids say WALLAHO UL ILM, that is Allah know best.....

now the question is what should we do if there is no hukm available ?

the first thing is that if i m there

i will try not to do it.......

and if i m bound , i ll go for it in that state of compulsion ....... (since the concept of obedience and disobedience cannot apply,and also it cannot be called haram as per the saying of imam jafar )

but i will never say that well i m doing it and now it is a part of islam.....

As you are doing the Taqleed of Imam can you tell me the answers of above

are u not doing taqleed of imam?

if u r , can u tell me what imam said about these issues?

i had told u much earlier my dear that i m here to gain ilm, and to be corrected if i m wrong .......

Taqleed don’t means obey, Taqleed means you are getting knowledge from a man who knows better then you and consider as master of that subject

i m thankful to you for sharing this definition which i also use to think to be the correct one , when i was an usooli

but my dear

this is not the definition of taqleed

who told u this definition

well listen i use to follow sistani , and have his tozeehul masail at my home

if u have it then try to see what is the definition written over there

taqleed means that u follow the fatwas of a person and you do not ask him as to why he is saying so.....

this part is very important my dear

remember , u cannot ask your maraja about the basis of his fatwa.....

do u know it ?

and when u say that u consider him a master of that subject ........

tell me have u ever met your maraja?

so how can u be sure that he is the master of that subject??what do u actually know about him

please do not tell me that people say so........just think about yourself

dear brother , it is your life ............... no one can compel anyone

u r free to do whatever , but remember , u r answerable for your deeds

no one else is

my dear brother , i m an ex-usooli and i very well know that 99 percent of the people who are doing taqleed do not know who they are following, they just know the name , area and have his tozeeh ul masail...............they follow because others are following .........

now my dear listen

i m not against asking question from anyone

i have no problem in asking questions from you , or say anyone

but i do not follow fatwas

because as i said earlier

they are presumptions

i m really sorry that i could not answer your questions in totality

it is mainly because of my lack of knowledge..........

and if you have ahadeeth about these , i ll be thankful to you if you share................

and if u want to discuss them , u may have to start separate threads for each one

inshallah i ll also try to be there and there are other brothers who are quite knowledgable

we will also gain from their knowledge

if i have said anything which may have hurt u

please do forgive me

u said something about your daughter , so it means you are elder than me

so

again i would say sorry

if i have hurt u ........

and remember as a younger brother , this is my right to be corrected if i m wrong...........

please do correct me

may Allah bless u all

protect u

and give u the strenght to serve masoomen amin

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taqleed means that u follow the fatwas of a person and you do not ask him as to why he is saying so.....

this part is very important my dear

remember , u cannot ask your maraja about the basis of his fatwa.....

Marajieen have written books in which they give hadiths and explanations for their rulings. See Kitab Fiqh al-Sadiq by Ayatullah Sadeq Ruhani.

http://www.imamrohani.com/arabic/kotob/fokh/

w/s

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Can you tell me what is the Hukum (guidance) for following matters?

1- Direction of Prayer while plan flying

2- Sexual Transplanting for baby formation for those woman have some natural birth problem

3- Taking loan for Car from Bank

4- Insurance for life time till death

5- Insurance for specific period fro your child education

6- Doing saai (running between the safa and marwa in Mace) under the covered roof

7- Can we do sajda over the cemented floor

8- Wearing Ahram (dress for Hajj and Umraha) from other cites like from Newyork, Dubai , Karachi

9- About Kasar Roza (Roza during traveling) when a man travel 1000 km within an few hours

10- can you tell me weather we can eat chocolate or not

11- what about the watching movies

12- can we get bath (Gusul) while we have not using any of our hand neither right or lift

13- can you tell me that weather my son can continue research on big bank theory that result on creation of this world suddenly

14- can my daughter continue working on human evolution that negates the Adam

15- Can I use Alcohol with perfume and medicines

16- One of my brother is living in Alaska where its almost impossible to distinguish night and day time during winter how can he establish the prayer time

17- what about rally or march (jaloos) for Imam Hussain(AS)

18- what about the using plastic utensils

I can write many more questions because of time limitation I am stopping here

As you are doing the Taqleed of Imam can you tell me the answers of above

By the why we must obey and surrender (Aitat) to Imam(AS) not to Taqleed

Taqleed don’t means obey, Taqleed means you are getting knowledge from a man who knows better then you and consider as master of that subject

Mr. Raza don’t do any hanky-panky tell me the answers of all above question

This was important post but was missed behind. How these questions can be answered if we presume that Baqir Nisar Zaidi is right in his approach?

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assalamoallaikom

may Allah bless u all

protect u

and give u the strenght to serve masoomen amin

salam brother

may Allah behaqe masoomeen(as) protect and bless us all

now, brother my question to you is which ahadith are correct and which are not

or what weightage do we give them to arrive at a hukm so to speak.

we have been following mujtahideen for centuries and then along comes this new thing to weaken and break us apart.

would all the great mujtahideen be in connivance against us.

this is where whoever wants to lead us.

i pray for the shias of pakistan to come back to a central authority, which is really our training for the real central authority.

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assalamoallaikom

This was important post but was missed behind. How these questions can be answered if we presume that Baqir Nisar Zaidi is right in his approach?

i think that i had addressed the issue , when i said that the concept of obedience and disobedience is related to the presence of order by aimmah ,

and i even quoted the definition of ijtihad and told u that what u guys consider a hokam,great scholars of usooli sect like hilli have called it

presumption with regard to a hukm of the Shari ah,

i did not went more because that would move the thread away from the main topic which was

SYED BAQIR NISAR ZAIDI

anyone gave answers to his books?

though it has already moved away from the topic

but i contributed so that my personal concept should get corrected...........if it is wrong

i m sorry if i have not been able to explain what i wanted to say........

now, brother my question to you is which ahadith are correct and which are not

or what weightage do we give them to arrive at a hukm so to speak.

we have been following mujtahideen for centuries and then along comes this new thing to weaken and break us apart.

would all the great mujtahideen be in connivance against us

i m really sorry brother to bother u

but i would request u to do two things

1-please first of all read the books written by baqar nisar , atleast read them

i m not saying if they are correct or not, but atleast read them with unbiased approach

if he is saying something correct , accept it for your own betterment

and if u think he is wrong , reject him

right ?

this is what even mola ali said , "do not see who is saying, just see what is he saying"

2- i would request u to visit this link

articles from hubeali.com

i m not saying whatever they say is correct , may be they are wrong

but

what then if they are correct ?

i would like to quote one hadeeth from book of sulaym bin qais , page is 60 , urdu

NARRATION OF 73 SECTS:-

ABAN says that i heard suleem say that mola ali said that this ummat will be divided into 73 sects and 72 will go to hell

and out of these 73 , 13 will claim to love us

and so 12 out of those who claim to love us , will also go to hell

and the one which will go to paradise will be the one which is the guided one , have EMAN , steadfast on islam and haq , accepting my orders , and my imamat , hating my enemy and expressing that , keeping me his friend

these are those who have recognized my right and imamat

and have understood from the book of Allah and the sunnat of prophet that my obedience is compulsory

Allah has enlightened their heart with the light of our maarifat

and then they never doubted that

and light of our maaifat has made them man of vision and ilham

they have been hold from their forheads and entered into our SHIAS

THEIR HEARTS ARE NOW FULLY SATISFIED

AND THEY NEVER GET ANY DOUBT

i m not quoting the full hadeeth , if u need it inshallah i ll give it to u

i m not saying that baqar nisar is the one who is going to heaven

and you are not the one

but what then if he is actually the one who is correct????

u see it is not that easy my dear

and that is why OP asked

is there any answer to his books?

because u know this is how u compare .......

in the end i would say that u said

may Allah behaqe masoomeen(as) protect and bless us all

amin

may Allah bless u brother

and give u all the happiness of this world and the world thereafter...................

the pain which is there in your heart is very nice, this shows your love for ahlubait

may Allah bless u amin

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salam brother

may Allah behaqe masoomeen(as) protect and bless us all

now, brother my question to you is which ahadith are correct and which are not

or what weightage do we give them to arrive at a hukm so to speak.

we have been following mujtahideen for centuries and then along comes this new thing to weaken and break us apart.

would all the great mujtahideen be in connivance against us.

this is where whoever wants to lead us.

i pray for the shias of pakistan to come back to a central authority, which is really our training for the real central authority.

I agree with you brother.

Do you think this is just a couple of misguided individuals? or do you think its part of a plan against shiasm?

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assalamoallaikom

brother I have read a lot of his books and sister zainabia has written a very befitting reply

maybe if you ask her she will let you have a copy.

kindly check the full ahadiths' which he has half quoted, i don't remember them off hand.

this is the disease of literalism amongst us.

may Allah behaqe masoomeen(as) protect us all

I agree with you brother.

Do you think this is just a couple of misguided individuals? or do you think its part of a plan against shiasm?

you have alluded to it brother in another post

it is part of a wider plan against the true islam

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Can you tell me what is the Hukum (guidance) for following matters?

1- Direction of Prayer while plan flying

2- Sexual Transplanting for baby formation for those woman have some natural birth problem

3- Taking loan for Car from Bank

4- Insurance for life time till death

5- Insurance for specific period fro your child education

6- Doing saai (running between the safa and marwa in Mace) under the covered roof

7- Can we do sajda over the cemented floor

8- Wearing Ahram (dress for Hajj and Umraha) from other cites like from Newyork, Dubai , Karachi

9- About Kasar Roza (Roza during traveling) when a man travel 1000 km within an few hours

10- can you tell me weather we can eat chocolate or not

11- what about the watching movies

12- can we get bath (Gusul) while we have not using any of our hand neither right or lift

13- can you tell me that weather my son can continue research on big bank theory that result on creation of this world suddenly

14- can my daughter continue working on human evolution that negates the Adam

15- Can I use Alcohol with perfume and medicines

16- One of my brother is living in Alaska where its almost impossible to distinguish night and day time during winter how can he establish the prayer time

17- what about rally or march (jaloos) for Imam Hussain(AS)

18- what about the using plastic utensils

I can write many more questions because of time limitation I am stopping here

As you are doing the Taqleed of Imam can you tell me the answers of above

By the why we must obey and surrender (Aitat) to Imam(AS) not to Taqleed

Taqleed don�t means obey, Taqleed means you are getting knowledge from a man who knows better then you and consider as master of that subject

Mr. Raza don�t do any hanky-panky tell me the answers of all above question

whatever the answer is, the answer is not through FATWAS because fatwas is guessing. Now can you show us any proof through hadith that twelfth imam (as) appointed any mujtahid as his representative?

Edited by PAK(hbari)
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assalamoallaikom

kindly check the full ahadiths' which he has half quoted, i don't remember them off hand.

first of all , i would request u to quote me a few example

second is

that even i have quoted half hadeeth , u know this 73 sects wali

but the meaning is not changing

even if u read the full hadeeth

so if someone is half quoting but not lying or concealing , i dont think it is a problem

still i would like to see your sources

may Allah behaqe masoomeen(as) protect us all

amin

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First of all, try to discuss based on logical statement (aqali) instead of just somebody says this and that

Before accepting anything one should convince logically but this logic also need some bases so logic with essence of Islam (rather true Islam), is the bases

I can give or refer and quoted Hadees and other examples from Imam(s) Life but my dear this is second step

Come to my questions, I was put these question not to you or other answer it

You didn’t get the point, if you are saying that I am doing Taqleed of Imam(AS) while Imam (as) is not in front of our eyes then what you do with all those matters that was not happen during the Imam(AS) life (this is my question to you )

If we can’t find the direct guidance for any specific matter (this statement also need comprehensive knowledge of all the reference material available) then you can say that I can’t find

Second point what ever written or quoted in all of our basic Hadees Books, we or one can’t just believed with closed eyes that this was the same wording from Imam without any change (this also need comprehensive knowledge)

Even in the Nahajul_Balagah all the speeches and statements are not completed (I am not saying wrong, alhamduallha it’s correct but not complete) and the compiler of book Syed Razi quoted this

Like our Sunni brothers who have believed that what ever written in the Siha Satha Books are correct statements from Rasul-e-Khuda Hazart Muhammad (SA), even these book it self contradicts

I have more to write but better to go step by step rather mess everything

First you (Raza) or any other brother give me the answers of these then we will precede

Mr. Raza you know Urdu ?

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assalamoallaikom

You didn’t get the point, if you are saying that I am doing Taqleed of Imam(AS) while Imam as.gif is not in front of our eyes then what you do with all those matters that was not happen during the Imam(AS) life (this is my question to you )

bhai i do get u and i even explained to u but it seems to me that u have not understood it

listen u say that imam is not present in front of u and so if u come across a problem

what u would do is that u would go to a mujtahid , he would do ijtihad ( an ilm which was not there in the times of aimmah , please refer to the thread where i have talked about the start of ijtihad, or go to the article of hubeali , i have already given u the link) and give u the hokam

but my dear i told u that ijtihad does not result in giving u a hokam...............

it is a presumption

ap farz kar lete hoo ka yehi hokam hai , ap ko yaqeen nahi hota hata ka ap ke mojtahid ko bhi nahi

ye sirf aik ZAN hota ha , ap yon samgh le jaise aik guman magar ap ka khaayal karne se koi cheese hokam nahi bana karti meri jan..............

that still remains a presumption............

do u get me now................

same wise i said that the

concept of obedience and disobedience applies when there is an order of aimmah

i do not know if u had understood it or not

let me now explain it more

say u have a servant

now u have not ordered anything to him

and he say drinks water , can u say , "u have disobeyed me"

the point is did u tell him that he should not drink water

nahi na

so if u have not told him , not to drink water , and he drinks it , he has not disobeyed u

but say u had ordered him not to drink water

now if he drink water , he has disobeyed

and if he does not , he has obeyed

right or wrong?

u asked me so many questions

and i said

do we have an order of imam regarding them?

if u say we do not have it ..............

how can the concept of obedience and disobedience apply?

say i m eating chocolate , can u say "u r disobeying imam" ?

no , how can u say this when u do not know the order of imam

and that is why imam jafar said

everything is halal till it is not proven haram

so all u have to do is to prove that something is haram

if it is not there

u cannot say , it is haram...............

now the question is

what to do if we do not have an order of imam?

the first thing is that

it is always better to avoid it

till the time of zahoor of imam of our time

but if you are in a state of compulsion

u may go for it

and no one can ever say that u r disobeying imam ..............

now the point is why did i say that it is better to avoid things ?

the reason is

let me give u another question of yours

that is

2- Sexual Transplanting for baby formation for those woman have some natural birth problem

now let me ask u

is there any hokam by imam regarding this?

if u say yes

phir to mere oor ap ke darmiyan koi masla hi nahi

if u say no , the point is how can u be sure it is allowed or not

all u have is a fatwa of mujtahid

and that i told u is a presumption so

how can u be sure ?

i hope u get me now

the reason why u should do ihtiayat is that

what then if imam upon his zahoor say

it is not allowed

what will u do then ?

aimmah have said that all the basic things we need , they have given us that .......

say if u ask

can we wear platinum ring ?

let us presume that there is no hokam from imam .......

what will u do ?

u see imam has told u that u can go for silver ring

so why not to go for silver ring , which will bring thawab

rather then going for platinum ring , which we are not sure of ......

do u get me now?

Mr. Raza you know Urdu ?

sir urdu bhi ati hai

oor

ma la kho pushto(pukhto as we call it ) hom razi

sir i m from pakistan ,,,

anyways sir

i m thankful to you for your precious time

it is your favour upon me that u r sparing so much time for me

though as a younger brother this is my right upon u

still i would say

thank u very much for your time and concern

may Allah bless u

protect u

and keep u and your family happy

amin

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First of all, try to discuss based on logical statement (aqali) instead of just somebody says this and that

Before accepting anything one should convince logically but this logic also need some bases so logic with essence of Islam (rather true Islam), is the bases

I can give or refer and quoted Hadees and other examples from Imam(s) Life but my dear this is second step

Come to my questions, I was put these question not to you or other answer it

You didn’t get the point, if you are saying that I am doing Taqleed of Imam(AS) while Imam (as) is not in front of our eyes then what you do with all those matters that was not happen during the Imam(AS) life (this is my question to you )

If we can’t find the direct guidance for any specific matter (this statement also need comprehensive knowledge of all the reference material available) then you can say that I can’t find

Second point what ever written or quoted in all of our basic Hadees Books, we or one can’t just believed with closed eyes that this was the same wording from Imam without any change (this also need comprehensive knowledge)

Even in the Nahajul_Balagah all the speeches and statements are not completed (I am not saying wrong, alhamduallha it’s correct but not complete) and the compiler of book Syed Razi quoted this

Like our Sunni brothers who have believed that what ever written in the Siha Satha Books are correct statements from Rasul-e-Khuda Hazart Muhammad (SA), even these book it self contradicts

I have more to write but better to go step by step rather mess everything

First you (Raza) or any other brother give me the answers of these then we will precede

Mr. Raza you know Urdu ?

Can you answer my question as well, Can you find me a hadith where a mujtahid has been appointed as imams (as) representative? Shukria!

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Can you answer my question as well, Can you find me a hadith where a mujtahid has been appointed as imams (as) representative? Shukria!
Can you answer my question as well, Can you find me a hadith where a mujtahid has been appointed as imams (as) representative? Shukria!

well I think I would like to go ahead and say the hadith that says there is no longer a Naib e Imam during the period of the greater occultation, to elucidate further our points.

around 329/941, the fourth representitive (ra) recieved a last autographed note from our Imam atfs:

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful: 'Ali b. Muhammad al-Simarri, may God increase, through you, the reward of your brothers [in religion, ie: the Shi'ites]; yes, your death will take place in 6 days. Prepare yourself, and name no one as your successor [as representitive] after your death. Here is the advent of the second occultaiton [or the complete occultation] in which there will be no more manifestation, except it be with Divine permission, and that will not take place but after a long time, when hearts will be hardened and the earth filled with violence. Among my partisans, some will claim to have seen me with their eyes. Beware! He who claims to have seen me with his eyes before the raising of al-Sufyani and [the sounding of] the Cry is a liar and an imposter. Greatness and Power belong to God alone.

Six days later al-Sam,arri, on his death bed, was asked, "Who will be your sucessor?" He replied, " From this point on the matter is in God's hands: He will conduct it Himself"

Those were his last words.

Ibn Babuye Kamal al-Din, volume 2 chapter 45, page 516 number44, also, al-Tusi Kitab al-ghayba, page 257

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First of all I am not fully agreed with your definition of Ijtayhad, anywhy this is second step

Go systematically,

So you are saying that if we don’t have any guidance in available material from Imam regarding any specific matter we have two ways or options

1 – Better to avoid that thing (this is your Fatwa ? or Baqar Nisar)

2- If that mater is compulsory one cant be avoid then how one can decide?

What is your answer ?????

Although for a common man it’s very difficult to find that weather this matter have some guidance from Imam in the books or not

Now also tell me (in 2009) if anything come me how I, as common man can decide weather we have any guidance from Imam in the books or not?

What is your answer ????

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assalamoallaikom

after reading your posts , what i feel is that you are just trying to prove me wrong ........... and win this debate

bhai my purpose has never been debating .........

this is a discussion forum where u discuss so that u learn , i m here to learn

anyways , now when u say ......

First of all I am not fully agreed with your definition of Ijtayhad, anywhy this is second step

my definition ????????

when did i gave u that ?

bhai i have quoted some people who were the big guns of usooli world

just by saying that it is my definition will not work ..............

my brother this is the definition of ijtihad

i do not know what is your source.................. and how do u define it ......

So you are saying that if we don’t have any guidance in available material from Imam regarding any specific matter we have two ways or options

1 – Better to avoid that thing (this is your Fatwa ? or Baqar Nisar)

2- If that mater is compulsory one cant be avoid then how one can decide?

What is your answer ?????

u see i have already told u that imam jafar said

everything is halal till it is not proven haram................

so if there is no hurmat , u can go for that

what i said was that i will not go for that because

aimmah have given us other options

so why should i not go for that which aimmah have told us ............

aimmah have said that whatever was necessary for u , we have told u that

i gave u an example but actually it seems that you are not reading my posts

you are just trying to win the debate ,

this is what i said

may be u get something out of it this time

say if u ask

can we wear platinum ring ?

let us presume that there is no hokam from imam .......

what will u do ?

u see imam has told u that u can go for silver ring

so why not to go for silver ring , which will bring thawab

rather then going for platinum ring , which we are not sure of ......

do u get me now?

the reason why i want to go for the surety is that mola ali said

that if an action is done with doubt , it is not accepted

and mola also said

it is better to sleep with surety(yaqeen) rather than offering prayers in doubt (shak)

but what your mujtahids do is that they give u a fatwa which is based on zan or goman , they are themselves not sure

so how can u be sure?(please read the definition of ijtihad again , and please, it is not my definition )

Although for a common man it’s very difficult to find that weather this matter have some guidance from Imam in the books or not

Now also tell me (in 2009) if anything come me how I, as common man can decide weather we have any guidance from Imam in the books or not?

What is your answer ????

very good question

but bhai if u do not know a thing , would u or anyone would just presume that this is the answer and that presumption would become answer ?

matlab ye ka agar ap ko kisi cheez ka nahi pata , to ap ya koi bhi goman kar le ka yehi is ka answer ho ga to kya woh us ka answer ban jaye ga ?goman to goman hi rahe ga mere bhai

your thinking will not convert it into yaqeen.........i had given an example let me repeat it

(u may understand it by the example of a disease which has no cure, if a disease has no cure , , do u think any doctor can cure it? afterall he reads the same very books and the treatment is not given in those ......now if the doctor says "well i think u take this medicine , it may help "............do u think this would become the treatment .......u see the doctor is himself not sure if it would work or not , so how can u be sure ........)

that is why it was said that u should gain ilm

and also note that i or even baqar nisar for that matter , do not say that u can not ask question from anyone

u can ask even from your son , or anyone but u have to see that his answer should be as per the sayings of imam

that is

if anyone tells u ka this is what imam has said and u say that i wont accept that .....if u do it

u actually reject imam

but fatwas are not the saying of imam my dear

this is where u r getting confused ................

anyways , dont u think that the topic has actually moved much away from the main point which was

is there any answer to baqar nisar's books?

i have no problem in discussing problems with anyone

if i m wrong , i ll get corrected and that is why i m here

and if i m correct , may be others get corrected

so faida hi faida

but debates , nope i dont like them , they do not result in anything ................

khair

may Allah bless u bhai

amin

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My Dear Raza

First try not to write un-necessary, I appreciate your participation,

As I said go step by step don’t write everything together otherwise it become mess and jumble that result to unfruitful and barren discussion

And you are repeating same thing that

Ijtayhad is presumption of Mujtahid why we go for this assumption of Mujahid (this is your point I understand what you are saying)

But my dear, for those matters that don’t have clear guidance (Hukum) you are saying that (as per one Hadees of Imam Jafar Sadiq (as)) everything is Halal or better to leave (ok I understand go one step forward)

My Question: How Mr. Raza can decided based on just one Hadees and even I don’t know the authenticity of this Hadees (may be correct, may be modified, may be wrong translated, may be wrong wording transferred) ?????

Suppose I take your both options (ok for time being and to precede this discussion I agreed with your point) that for all those matters that don’t have clear guidance (Hukum) we don’t have to follow the Mujahid presumption (as you are saying),

MY Question: But why I take your (Mr. Raza) two options and result that you have taken from Imam (as) one Hadees

Your answer would be, don’t take my two options and results from just one Hadees; get knowledge try your self and understand and take decision for a specific issue or matter

Now, I am putting full stop here (as I said I don’t want to mess) until your reply,

Try to write in a conclusive way and don’t write in a replicated manner, go one step forward

Good GOD Bless You

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assalamoallaikom

MY Question: But why I take your (Mr. Raza) two options and result that you have taken from Imam as.gif one Hadees

hmm well said , why should u take my options or say opinions .......

the reason is mere bhai that i m saying this on the basis of a hadeeth.......... which i have quoted for u

now when u say

My Question: How Mr. Raza can decided based on just one Hadees and even I don’t know the authenticity of this Hadees (may be correct, may be modified, may be wrong translated, may be wrong wording transferred) ?????

so u should go and check the authenticity , u know

because if i m right

then my dear u r not rejecting me actually ,but the saying of imam and that ,my dear, is kufr .......

so till the time u do not know the authenticity of this hadeeth, or u dont know if it is wrong or not ,,, how can u actually reject me?

Ijtayhad is presumption of Mujtahid why we go for this assumption of Mujahid (this is your point I understand what you are saying)

kamal hai bhai

u r still saying that this is my point .................

But my dear, for those matters that don’t have clear guidance (Hukum) you are saying that (as per one Hadees of Imam Jafar Sadiq as.gif) everything is Halal or better to leave (ok I understand go one step forward)

ok bhai , u tell me please that what should we do if we do not have an order from imam?

and please also tell me have u actually read the books of baqar nisar ?

espacially the book KASHAF UL HAQQAIQ , page 287

SHIA KIYA KAREN?

(WHAT SHOULD SHIAS DO ?)

please read that , it deals with what u have been asking me ..............

anyways thanks again for sparing time for me ...........

may Allah bless all momineen amin

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Wsalam

GOD bless and guide us, and give us open mind to think beyond the limitation and accept based on logic and reality.

If you are ready to continue this discussion better, we go step by step let see where we reach,

Let�s concluded this step

Your agreed points

1- You are agreed that there are issues and matters related to human life that appears in last 1200 years after the occultation of Imam-e-Zamana (as) that needs guidance.

2- Everybody is understand that as life of human goes ahead new issues appears even after 100 years there will be some new issues that nobody knows now.

3- To solve all these issues Mr. Raza have solution that everybody go and find from Quran and Hadees and search the authenticity of that finded solution (if he find) by their own.

Next step points

1- Can Mr. Raza give an idea (or have idea) how many Hadees have from Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) to 11th Imam (as) and then 12th Imam (as) we have ?

2- Is this possible for everybody to find solutions by their own?

3- And if everybody find solution by their own, there will be differences among the solution of same issues or not

Thank you very much

May Allaha give us guidance and power to accept rational based thoughts

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assalamoallaikom

i think that u have not at all read the books of baqar nisar , u just dont like him and that is why you are writing....

but bhai this is not a good concept

atleast read what he has said

then reject it if you think he is wrong................

Your agreed points

1- You are agreed that there are issues and matters related to human life that appears in last 1200 years after the occultation of Imam-e-Zamana as.gif that needs guidance.

2- Everybody is understand that as life of human goes ahead new issues appears even after 100 years there will be some new issues that nobody knows now.

3- To solve all these issues Mr. Raza have solution that everybody go and find from Quran and Hadees and search the authenticity of that finded solution (if he find) by their own.

let me quote baqar nisar , he writes in his famous book KASHAF UL HAQQAIQ.........it is in urdu but i m translating for the sake of others

he is basically explaining what u call the problems are arising , and we do not know etc

he says

This concept of new era and old era has just been created to confuse you , other wise the purpose of our creation was ,is and will be ONE AND ONLY ONE and that is

TO OBEY Allah

And obedience is dependent on order ….

If there is order , we have to obey ,

If there is no order , what would we obey?

Say if you have a servant and he obeys you, he would obey u only when there would be a order available ……….if you have not given him an order he would just wait for your order …..

He would not just presume that that would be your order and start acting

And if he actually does it , you would consider him a mad person as to why he is acting without any order and that too on a presumption

So if there is a problem and you try to find the solution to it but you could not find any order about it , then not acting on that problem would be obedience of Allah

Rather than making a supposition and going for that ……

So in NAHJ UL BALAGH , mola ali says

Allah has given you some duties , so do not waste them

And Allah has set some limits for u , so do not exceed them

And he has forbidden somethings for you , so do not go against his orders

And those things which he has not given any order , he has not left them without a reason so do not try to go for them”

Now that you have read what mola ali said , you should be clear about the new era and old era

Remember your deeds are dependent on you knowledge …so do not go for deeds first , go for knowledge …. The more you have knowledge , the more deeds you could do ….

Even if you do little good deeds but with knowledge , they will be accepted ,but not the bundles of deeds without knowledge …that is prohibited

Let me quote a few ahadeeth from kafi , book of aql….

1-imam jafar said “if someone is acting without a vision(clear knowledge) , he is just like walking on wrong path ……the faster he moves ,,,,,,,,,,the more he goes away from his destination

hadeeth 1

2-holy prophet said “who acts without knowledge , he has missed major part of the reward”

hadeeth number 3

source:- KASHAF UL HAQQAIQ , urdu , page 304

and then he quotes in another place these ahadeeth

and the title he has given is

WHAT TO DO IF WE DO NOT RECEIVE AN ORDER FROM IMAM?

AND HE SAYS

2- imam of our time in one of his letters say:-

“and it is asked as to how you would benefit in the time of my occultation …it would be similar to the sun which has been covered by the clouds..i m a source of peace(aman?) for the residents of earth just like stars are for residents of sky….so close the doors of question which you are not dealing with and do not try to know what u do not need and pray more and more for the end of occultation as there is benefit{ease} (?) for you”

bihar ul anwar , vol 12 page 778

3-imam jafar said “in state of doubt it is better not to act , rather than putting one life in danger”

kafi , book of aql , chapter 22 , hadeeth 10

4-imam baqir said “in state of doubt , it is better to avoid speaking and acting rather than putting one’s life in risk

kafi ,book of aql ,chapter17 , hadeeth 9

source:- KASHAF UL HAQQAIQ , urdu , page 310

my dear this whole chapter is very important for u , i would request u to go through this chapter ..........

it starts from page 287 ,

i had told u even before but i think that u again did not pay attention to it........

if you have read what i have quoted from kashaf ul haqqaiq , u would accept that we are not dependent on things like test tube babies and offering prayers in case we go to moon etc

and even if there is one , for which we do not find an order of imam ,

does this mean that we should presume something to be an order of imam and start acting like that

u see my dear if there is something for which the solution has not been given by imam , you , me and any one ,,

no matter how much he has studied ,,are all at the same level........

and that is

that neither u nor me nor anyone (no matter how much he has studied) is aware of the order of imam

so whosoever would say would by a presumption or a guess

all u can say is that the guess of a learned would be better , but my dear guess is but a guess............

it still remain presumption and please read that imam ordered not to act in state of confusion........

u see if there is a disease which has no cure ,

now i m a doctor and i m doing specialization in anesthesia ,

so i know more medicine than u

rather say there is a professor of medicine

now u , me and the professor ,,,, we all are same as far as this disease is concerned

neither u can treat it , nor me nor the professor.............

even the professor would go for some trial and error method

but that is not the treatment my dear

i accept that if there is a disease for which there is treatment

professor is better than me and i m better than u

because professor knows more than me and i know more than u

but know what ?

the treatment my dear

similarly if there is a problem for which there is an order of imam

the one who is aware of quran and ahadeeth is better as he knows what imam has said

but if there is something , as u say , for which we dont find orders

i mean no one finds order

we are at the same level

are we or are we not?

please do reply to this point

through out these posts what you are doing is that you have been asking me questions

more with the intention of trapping me

and i know that if u want to debate the best way is by asking him question

this is the Christians tactic and was highlighted by ahmad deedat

but my dear it hardly matters to me

u may ask me questions

i would continue answering

till the time i know

and when i wont

i ll ask someone for in this way my knowledge would increase

but my dear this would harm u ..........

dont do this

this is my request to u

Next step points

1- Can Mr. Raza give an idea (or have idea) how many Hadees have from Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) to 11th Imam as.gif and then 12th Imam as.gif we have ?

2- Is this possible for everybody to find solutions by their own?

3- And if everybody find solution by their own, there will be differences among the solution of same issues or not

i have never said that u find solutions on your own my dear, that is good if u try but

u can ask

what i say is that dont get fatwas but ahadeeth of masoom

and act as per that

and as far as the differences part is concerned

that is not important

the reason is that

say i m acting on one hadeeth and u r acting on another

we both are atleast unanimous in following imam

right?

the main thing is

obedience of imam...............and that we both are doing

but if u r following fatwa of anyone , u r following something other than order of imam

may be it has similarity to the order of imam but yet it is not order of imam rather fatwa of someone ......

let me gift u a hadeeth from al kafi

H 196, Ch. 21, h 9

It is narrated from him from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar from Yunus from Dawud ibn

Farqad from Mu‘alla ibn Khunays who has said the following.

"I asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), ‘If we receive a Hadith from first of you and from the members of your later generation which one should we follow?" The Imam replied, "Follow it until you receive it from the living Imam. When it comes from a living Imam follow his words." The Imam than said, "We by Allah, like you to follow what is easy for you." In another Hadith it is says, "Follow whichever the newest."’

so as per this hadeeth , all i have to do in case of two ahadeeth giving me different orders is to see what the later imam said...........and act as per that

H 194, Ch. 21, h 7

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ‘Uthman ibn ‘Isa and al-Hassan ibn

Mahbub both from Sama’ from ‘Abdallah who has said the following.

"I asked (Imam) abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about a man who was opposed by two people of his own

faith in an issue that they both narrated. One of them said it to be obligatory and the other said

it was prohibited. How it can be solved?" The Imam replied, "He must wait until he finds one

who would inform him and until then he is not under any pressure." In another Hadith it says,

"Whichever answer he follows in obedience for his ease."

and as per this we do have the option of following what ever is easy

and if u read the al kafi urdu version , this hadeeth is written as

"jis ko chahe man le agar zarar ka khatra na ho , magar aik qol ko dosre per tarjeeh na de, balka is liya kare ka imam ka hokam hai"

meri jan have u ever noticed that even the mujtahids are clashing in fatwas

if u r not aware , i would request u to read the book

KASHAF UT TAZAD

THE reason why i m asking u is

3- And if everybody find solution by their own, there will be differences among the solution of same issues or not

now think for yourself

if two mujtahids are giving different fatwas , u have no problem

but if i m following an order or hadeeth by masoom and

another brother is also follwoing an order or hadeeth of masoom

u have problem..........why?

after all we both are following order of imam ......

right or wrong?

and remember

when i say that important thing is

OBEDIENCE OF IMAM

that too i base on this hadeeth

H 191, Ch. 21, h 4

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from ibn Mahbub from Ali ibn Ri’ab

from abu ‘Ubayda who has said the following.

"Abu Ja‘far (a.s.) has said, ‘O Ziyad, What would you say if we give a Fatwa to one of our

followers under pressure (and concealed the truth)?" I said, "You know better, may Allah take

my soul in your service.’" The Imam said, "If would follow such Fatwa it would be better for

him and of a greater rewarding." In another Hadith it says, "If follows it, he will be rewarded

and if he disregarded it he has sinned."

my dear in the end i would request u

please do not try to trap me or try to win this debate

i dont like debates

i have told u time and again

if i wished it , i could have done it much earlier

remember the way u r thinking now

i use to think like this 5 months back

anyways

every one is free

no one can force anyone

and every one is answerable for his actions

may Allah bless u brother

and all of momineen

amin

ya ali madad

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Salamalaikum guys,

First of all alhamdolillah and Subhanallah for sharing ahadith.

I would end my post with answer to one question posted here:

Bismillah Ya Mohammad Ya Ali

A. A traveller travelled 1000 kilometers in 1 hour so should he/she pray Qasr or Full prayers?

Ya Ali Madad: 1. Travelling certain kilometers makes ur prayer Qasr for so many hours. You all might know the Distance and Time taken.

People who consider Ithna Ashari Imamis Muslims/Momins/Mohibs/Muklis'/muwahids as LITERALISTS should look to point B.

B. What is the Logic behind Distance and Time: Imam Sadiq a.s. Says: it is because there is a Change in Climatic conditions and Water for every such and such kilometers which has an affect on the Aql of a Human.

Aql gives you Yaqeen and decrease in capacity of Aql would lead to lesser concentration so Allah swt has given ease because He is Azeez, Hakeem, Rahman and Raheem for the ones who turn towards him in Worship. Now, by these two Ahadith you understand that you travel by plane, train or you walk Islam doesn't change.

Try to fit yourself to Islam do not try to fit Islam to yourself.

O' The Giver of Comfort shower your Municicience on Brother Ali Raza and guide him Through Sabr(Mohammad saww) and Salaat(Ali a.s) and expose the Batil and make Shias United.

Ya Ali Madad

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Wslam

First of all why I am discussing with you please keep in mind that 1) I don’t want to trap you 2) I don’t want to defeat you 3) I am not bias with you and your favored concept

(Nah no Abna uo Dalil)

You don’t know me and I don’t know you, this is the beauty of this discussion, you don’t know how difficult is for me to spare time and reply you then why I am doing this

Because when you (one of our shia brother) defending your concept regarding Taqleed, and Ijtayhad, I feel that I can guide you just for the sake GOOD and Imam-e-Zaman(AS), May Hazart-e-Hujjat(AS) accept my very very small this effort

Secondly, its proved to me that during the occultation of Imam-e-Zaman(AS), Ijkayhad is needed but not as per definition you have given

And as this discussion continue my belief is becoming more and more storage and I am feeling very happy and want to you also to re-thing and open you mind

Just to proceed this discussion I have already accept you argument that if Mujtahid is only given its assumption so why we accept ones assumption agreed from me for the time being only

Order, without order and obedience concept is come when we first decided the methodology to find the order or non-order

I am discussion with you based on rational (aqali) this is a pride of true Islam (mazhab-e-Ahlybat) that every concept is based on deep rational basis and the beauty is that as we dig out find more storage basis and this is only mazhab in the world that allow its follower to asked question as many as you can don’t believed with doubt

It’s good if you want to understand the Ijtayhad based on knowledge

But what ever Hadees you are referring its second step we will inshallha come on that also

We will discuss the true definition of ijtayhad and hadees regarding the Taqleed

But all these are second step first we/you/me/everybody must understand the subject based on rational evidence or proof,

till now you are failed to defined you argue based on any rational statement

I will come on all your /Baqar Nisar argument but my dear step by step don’t mess the things

Now come to the point, as you were saying that everybody have to go and find hadees by their own as per you no matter if there are differences

You are asking to me that if nobody find the solution/hadees so all are at same level (but how we decide about the order of Imam(AS) that we are discussing) but my dear my question was that is this possible for everybody to find hadees by their own and if you are saying yes then do you have any any idea that how many hadees (from masomeem (as)) we have ?

Because of time limitation I am stopping here we will discussed on next post

Bu my dear brother don’t repeat same thing again and again

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assalamoallaikom

You don’t know me and I don’t know you, this is the beauty of this discussion, you don’t know how difficult is for me to spare time and reply you then why I am doing this

i m really thankful to u my dear for sparing time for me .............

i m really obliged and at the very same time

would say

that this is even my right as a brother of yours that u spare time for me and it is also a duty upon u to spare time for me

brother i m really thankful to u from the core of my heart

Secondly, its proved to me that during the occultation of Imam-e-Zaman(AS), Ijkayhad is needed but not as per definition you have given

just for your sake , i m finally accepting that this definition of ijtihad is mine , though it is not ............ :)

Now come to the point, as you were saying that everybody have to go and find hadees by their own as per you no matter if there are differences

yes i do say that one should learn ahadeeth and this is the order of aimmah as well but i also said , which i hope u misunderstood

i have never said that u find solutions on your own my dear, that is good if u try but

u can ask

what i say is that dont get fatwas but ahadeeth of masoom

and act as per that

i m not at all against asking questions from others

we should ask if we do not know , but what should we ask and whom should we ask , is important

i told u that if anyone

i mean anyone

say any mujtahid tells me a hadeeth ,i have to accept , do u get me ?

bhai , please tell me first what do u think is the definition of ijtihad?

i think u r making a mistake just like me

i used to think that ijtihad means that u read quran and hadeeth and this effort is called ijtihad ...........

but this is not, my dear ,the definition

so u can ask

even on this very shiachat there are some really good member who have very good knowledge of ahadeeth

for example

there is jondab azdi ,macisaac , zuhair , albaqyr , siratoalihaqqun

i mean u can ask them

about a hadeeth

i mean u can ask so many people

i m not in favour of ijtihad ,,,,

i have never said that u should not ask ..............

do u get me ???

may Allah bless u bhai

again i m thankful to u

for sparing time for me

mola salamat rakhe apko oor apko family ko sab momineen sameet amin

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Salam

Mubarik to all moumineen over the arrival occasion of Hazrat Muhamad(s)

and Sadiq-e-Aal-e-Muhammad ,Imam Jafar (as): 17 Rabiul Awwal.

Thanks you my brother, In the search of truth one should think beyond the limitation (limitation of its own thought) Alhamduallha, I am not Shia Muslim just because I born no, all the concept from Tawoheed, Adil, Nabowat, Imamt, Kayamat, and all Ahkamat, and all the systems given by Islam is based on rational basis because if you see this universe the truth is based on rational (Aqali), as day by day science reveals some of them

I am not denying the evidence based on reference (means you / me / anybody) refer some Hadees as proof of any statement (but when anybody refer any Hadees the first question appears is that weather that Hadees is correct of not) and for some issues we must have to do this because our rational or logic (Aqal) have some limitation that’s why Ambiya and Aaima comes

You have must be listen that our rationales or logic power (of course its one of the greatest gift from Allha) is our inner prophet means its guide our self toward Allha with some limitations.

I just want to present rational basis (reference from Hadees also) of Ijtayhad to you then its up to you accept or not (Ima shakura ima khafura)

The step of understanding of Ijtayhad and it definition and difference from your miss concept and difference with other sect of Islam is come when we first understand the need of Ijtayhad (means why we need Ijtayhad and what is the basis and limitation of it)

You are write that one should learn Hadees it’s an order of Aimmah (as) but not to infer Hukum (but anyway we are still debating on it)

Ok you are saying that we can asked question to any person who knows Hadees in better why then us (my question is that if you are agreed that we can asked question then why not from Mujtahid, if you think he knows anything) I understand your point that don’t take Fatwa (but what if anybody asked question from Mujathid not Fatwa)

I am again asking same question do you have any idea (just guess) how many Hadees we have from Masomeen (as) ?

Step further,

since 1400 years from the Zahoor of Rasul-e-Khuda (SA) and occultation of Hazart-e-Hujjat (as) time period is only 250 yeas and rest is about 1200 years, so we have more period without the Masoom Hadi (as) in front of us, agreed ?

Question is that its Allha responsibility to send guidance to us through their Hadi (as) and we have to accept that or not? Or something different you have in your mind

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(bismillah)

(salam)

thank you very much for sparing time for me again and posting for me

i respect and appreciate the concern which u have for others

may Allah bless u and give u the strength to serve masoomen amin

I just want to present rational basis (reference from Hadees also) of Ijtayhad to you then its up to you accept or not (Ima shakura ima khafura)

The step of understanding of Ijtayhad and it definition and difference from your miss concept and difference with other sect of Islam is come when we first understand the need of Ijtayhad (means why we need Ijtayhad and what is the basis and limitation of it)

i m thankful to u for trying to give the rational basis of ijtihad but bhai till this time

u have not told me yet

as to what is the definition ijtihad ?

that is very important because a lot of shias, like me myself ,are not aware of the true meaning and definition of ijthiad

u know hardly about 5 months back , i was arguing like u with brother siratoali , because at that time i had this concept that referring to quran and sunnah is ijtihad and who is doing it is mujtahid

i was not knowing what is zan ? what is presumption? etc

then came the time when i read the books of baqar nisar

(well my favorite book is kashaf ul moarif and kashaf ul mowadda ,,, but of course the topic which we are discussing it covered in kashaf ul haqqaiq)

so i would again request u to atleast read his books.................

atleast see what he has written

and check if he is right or wrong

for yourself.......

to sum up this point , i would request u to forward me the definition of ijtihad as per aimmah ..........

ok that is good that u r giving me the rational of ijtihad

we can definitely discuss that

i have absolutely no objection

but atleast pata to ho ka ya ijtiahd hai kiya?

Ok you are saying that we can asked question to any person who knows Hadees in better why then us (my question is that if you are agreed that we can asked question then why not from Mujtahid, if you think he knows anything) I understand your point that don’t take Fatwa (but what if anybody asked question from Mujathid not Fatwa)

meri jan u r giving the answer yourself

ok i rearrange what u have said

and u get what i have to say

(but what if anybody asked question from Mujathid not Fatwa)
I understand your point that don’t take Fatwa
you are saying that we can asked question to any person who knows Hadees in better

do u get what i m saying

u r saying the same meri jan

yes , u can ask questions from anyone including mujtahids

anyone u know

and as u say , i dont take fatwa but the hadeeth

so i hope u get me this time?

since 1400 years from the Zahoor of Rasul-e-Khuda (SA) and occultation of Hazart-e-Hujjat as.gif time period is only 250 yeas and rest is about 1200 years, so we have more period without the Masoom Hadi as.gif in front of us, agreed ?

his presence in front of us , as u say ,

does not affect his capability to guide us .................

there are ahadeeth which state , that we would benefit just like when the sun is in cover of clouds

we wont see him , but would benefit

everyone of this time needs guidance , i mean u , me or anyone

and the reason and proof is that in each of our prayers

we recite

ÇåúÏöäóÇ ÇáÕøöÑóÇØó ÇáúãõÓúÊóÞöíãóÇ

so every one needs guidance

and he is the guide

right?

so do u think he is doing his job or not properly?

be very careful in answering

one small mistake here can land u in the world of kufr

meri jan sanbhal ker jawab dena

not for my sake

but for your own sake

Question is that its Allha responsibility to send guidance to us through their Hadi as.gif and we have to accept that or not? Or something different you have in your mind

this is what i have exactly said

we need guidance and he is the guide

actually what confuses u , this is though my perception and can be wrong

is that u think how would i seek guidance from him

ask him question

right?

is this your point?

u see u have his answers or answers of our aimmah in books like kafi

or man la yahdaral faqih etc

just tell me

when u need answer to your problem from your maraja

what do u do ?

u pick up his tozeeh ul masail ,,,, right???

and u get the answer from the book

and then u say that your maraja has solved your problem

same wise if u have any question ,what u do is pick up al kafi or man la yahdaaral faqih

and see if your problem gets solved or not

and see if your imam helps u or not

the point is what about the new problems which we dont find

but i have already told u that if u have problem which is not discussed in ahadeeth , u and any scholar, are at the same level

neither u nor he knows what imam has said about that .............

all he would do is that he would make a guess

all u can say is that his guess would be better , as he is more learned

but still it remains a guess

right or wrong???

and i have already told u

that if u r in state of doubt

do not act , this is the order of imam

brother sirat thank u very much for your prayers

i m in debt to u and u know this

may Allah bless u all amin

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Salam

(Jiss ki baqa say duniya baqi hay

Jiss kay sadqay may duniya to reezk milta hay

Jiss kay zariye khuda is dunya to adel our insaf say bhar day ga)

As I said earlier, as this discussion goes on my believe become more and more stronger

My dear brother I feel very happy after reading your reply

If you don’t mind, let me converged till now discussion and summarized your points regarding the Ijtayhad and related matters.

1. The meaning of Ijtayhad is just assumption (goman, khayal, raey) of Mujtahid

2. There is no evidence of presence of Fiqiha (man having knowledge of Figh) in the life of Imams (as)

3. Then why I follow the ones assumption

4. Everybody have to find and search the Hadees from our Hadees books and find their solution

5. if he don’t know then can asked anybody (if he knows better then him)

6. if everybody taking their own solution from Hadees book and its lead in some difference then its no problem

7. there are some issues/matters or problem for which we don’t have any guidance in the books of Hadees

8. for all those issues/matters or problem that don’t have any guidance from Imams (as) in the Hadees books everybody have right to do or not any thing he wants

9. But how we or anybody decide this weather we have any Hadees or not that you don’t know

10. and you do understand that its possible for everybody (of most of the peoples) that they can find solution by their own from Hadees books

11. If there is no guidance from Imam regarding any specific issue or matters then there is no difference between the common man and mujtahid in this matters (but how we decide that is there any guidance or not you don’t know)

12. you do also understand that if Imam(AS) is not in front of us and we can not asked question from him, then no problem we can find solution from Hadees books its same as Imam in front of us (then what is the need of Imam-e-Hazir, present Imam)

13. all those our Haeeds books have written in the early stage of big occultation (ghaybat-e-khubra) mainly three is enough

14. in other word you are saying that the meaning of religion (Deen) is just to answer some Fiqahi problem and that is already done from Hadees books during occultation of Imam(AS)

For following two points I still need your views and concept

1. Weather you are saying that all the Hadees in our Hadees books are correct and true wording as Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) and Imam(AS) was said with same reference to context.

2. Do you have any idea how many Hadees from Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) and Imam(AS) we have in our Hadees books

Don’t get worried from above point or question this will give as ease to go forward and proceed this discussion

Thanks my brother,

brother sirat thank u very much for your prayers

i m in debt to u and u know this

i don’t understand this sentence

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assalamoallaikom

thanks for sparing time for me again

and giving me an opportunity to speak up my mind

1. The meaning of Ijtayhad is just assumption (goman, khayal, raey) of Mujtahid

do u accept this definition or u r asking me

i have already quoted the definition before

i m waiting for ur reply in this regard

2. There is no evidence of presence of Fiqiha (man having knowledge of Figh) in the life of Imams

when did i say that faqih were not there?did i say it?

but what is the definition of faqih as per the sayings of masoom...........

ok let me gift u some more ahadeeth

imam baqar was asked and he replied and the person said “faqih don’t say like this” and imam said “alas for u , have u actually seen who faqih is ?actual faqih is one who is not interested in this world and is more interested in that world and keeps himself attached with the sunnah of prophet

al kafi ,book of aql, chapter 23, hadeeth 8

imam jafar said “a man becomes faqih by following two things – that he has left greed and and is not aware of (?in the sense of does not take care of ) what he is wearing or has eaten

alkhisal, chapter khaslat hae do gana , hadeeth 23

now where does these ahadeeth say that faqih is mujtahid

or till the time u do not do ijtihad , u r not faqih

i have underlined the characteristics of faqih as per the sayings of aimmah

u know imam hussein called hadrat habib ibn mazahir by the term

RAJOL-E-FAQIH , when he wrote letter to him at the time of karaba

now please dont tell me that habib was also a mujtahid and used to issue fatwas and things like this........

4. Everybody have to find and search the Hadees from our Hadees books and find their solution

5. if he don’t know then can asked anybody (if he knows better then him)

6. if everybody taking their own solution from Hadees book and its lead in some difference then its no problem

7. there are some issues/matters or problem for which we don’t have any guidance in the books of Hadees

8. for all those issues/matters or problem that don’t have any guidance from Imams as.gif in the Hadees books everybody have right to do or not any thing he wants

9. But how we or anybody decide this weather we have any Hadees or not that you don’t know

10. and you do understand that its possible for everybody (of most of the peoples) that they can find solution by their own from Hadees books

11. If there is no guidance from Imam regarding any specific issue or matters then there is no difference between the common man and mujtahid in this matters (but how we decide that is there any guidance or not you don’t know)

12. you do also understand that if Imam(AS) is not in front of us and we can not asked question from him, then no problem we can find solution from Hadees books its same as Imam in front of us (then what is the need of Imam-e-Hazir, present Imam)

13. all those our Haeeds books have written in the early stage of big occultation (ghaybat-e-khubra) mainly three is enough

14. in other word you are saying that the meaning of religion (Deen) is just to answer some Fiqahi problem and that is already done from Hadees books during occultation of Imam(AS)

For following two points I still need your views and concept

1. Weather you are saying that all the Hadees in our Hadees books are correct and true wording as Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) and Imam(AS) was said with same reference to context.

2. Do you have any idea how many Hadees from Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) and Imam(AS) we have in our Hadees books

so many questions .................

i m thankful to u for typing so much for me

though it seems more to me that u have already made up your mind

that i m already correct , so let me correct the world now

may be you are right

but

may be you are not

what then if u r not?

ok listen

it will not be easy for me to give answer to each question separately

so i will address the issue in general

the problem my dear is that u do not know what ijtihad is .........

sorry to say it so bluntly but this is the truth

u have made up your mind that ijtihad is something like reading quran and sunnah

and telling the solution of their problems from that

even just 5 months back

i was thinking like u

magar meri jan

this is not the case

for details u have to read KASHAF UL HAQQAIQ

I ll address it briefly

you see if u get any problem

what would u do ?

u go to anyone and ask if u are yourself not aware of it

he can do two things

either he quotes some hadeeth or gives u some personal thinking

what i or the akhbari community say is

that u should get the hadeeth and act as per that

and do not follow the personal thinking

as personal thinkings can be wrong

but if u r following hadeeth , u r doing it with the intention of doing obedience to imam

right?

and that is the important thing

even if there are differences between two people because they are following different ahadeeth

which is possible because

let me explain with the help of hadeeth

H 191, Ch. 21, h 4

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from ibn Mahbub from Ali ibn Ri’ab

from abu ‘Ubayda who has said the following.

"Abu Ja‘far (a.s.) has said, ‘O Ziyad, What would you say if we give a Fatwa to one of our

followers under pressure (and concealed the truth)?" I said, "You know better, may Allah take

my soul in your service.’" The Imam said, "If would follow such Fatwa it would be better for

him and of a greater rewarding." In another Hadith it says, "If follows it, he will be rewarded

and if he disregarded it he has sinned."

now u see if imam had given an order to someone which is under taqqayya , it is compulsion upon him to follow that

he has to do it

else he ll be a sinner

now tell me one thing

is it not that mujtahids do differ?

now if i m following the fatwa of mujtahid which is different from the fatwa your mujtahid, is this ok?

and why?

one thing which u have said

and i think it needs a bit of explanation is

11. If there is no guidance from Imam regarding any specific issue or matters then there is no difference between the common man and mujtahid in this matters (but how we decide that is there any guidance or not you don’t know)

now what i said was

that if there is no order from imam

then anyone who is out there

has to guess , or u think that there would be some sort of wahi upon him.....

u r yourself accepting that there is no guidance from imam....right

so???

as to your question

how we decide ?

till the time , u have not decided or received any hadeeth , u wait for the hadeeth

as i said earlier

few ahadeeth from kafi , book of aql

1-imam jafar said “if someone is acting without a vision(clear knowledge) , he is just like walking on wrong path ……the faster he moves ,,,,,,,,,,the more he goes away from his destination

hadeeth 1

2-holy prophet said “who acts without knowledge , he has missed major part of the reward”

hadeeth number 3

3- imam of our time in one of his letters say:-

“and it is asked as to how you would benefit in the time of my occultation …it would be similar to the sun which has been covered by the clouds..i m a source of peace(aman?) for the residents of earth just like stars are for residents of sky….so close the doors of question which you are not dealing with and do not try to know what u do not need and pray more and more for the end of occultation as there is benefit{ease} (?) for you”

bihar ul anwar , vol 12 page 778

4-imam jafar said “in state of doubt it is better not to act , rather than putting one life in danger”

kafi , book of aql , chapter 22 , hadeeth 10

5-imam baqir said “in state of doubt , it is better to avoid speaking and acting rather than putting one’s life in risk”

kafi ,book of aql ,chapter17 , hadeeth 9

ok let me ask u one thing

bhai if u r not sure as to something is poisonous or not , what would u do ?

eat it or wait till the time a person comes and tells u clearly about it?

same if some problem is there and u r not sure if it is allowed or not..

i mean these are the only two options ....either it is allowed or not

so what will u do ?

i mean i will wait till it is clear

and would ask those who have read ahadeeth books

there are people u know

like albaqyr, sirat, macisaac, jondab , splzo, zuhair etc

or even your mujthaids

i ll send email to ask them if they know of some ahadeeth regarding the matter..........

baqi ap ki marzi hai jo ap karna chaho....

12. you do also understand that if Imam(AS) is not in front of us and we can not asked question from him, then no problem we can find solution from Hadees books its same as Imam in front of us (then what is the need of Imam-e-Hazir, present Imam)

this is also important point

listen u r misquoting me

dont do this thing

i had actually asked u something

but rather then answering me , u have done the same

ask me questions ......

anyways listen

the guidance of imam is there even in the time of ghiabat , it is not there that he is not guiding

as to the point that just hadees book will solve our problems

i told u

what u need , u will find

and if u dont , u wait for his zahoor

once he will be there (may his zahoor happen quickly amin)

all your question like the ones u asked me before

will be answered ,just dont worry

imam will tell u clearly what to do with test tube babies and every other question

but till that time

u wait

rather than acting on guesses

For following two points I still need your views and concept

1. Weather you are saying that all the Hadees in our Hadees books are correct and true wording as Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) and Imam(AS) was said with same reference to context.

2. Do you have any idea how many Hadees from Rasool-e-Khuda (SA) and Imam(AS) we have in our Hadees books

ok so u r actually trying to trap me right :!!!:

u wish that i should say

"i dont know the reference to the context and i dont have the idea that how many ahadeeth are there"

and then u would say

"oh u see this is what i was saying

u need a scholar to do it

and that scholar is mujtahid

so we should follow a mujtahid as he knows more ahadeeth and also knows the reference to the context"

so be happy

let me get trapped :!!!:

what then if i dont know how many ahadeeth are there and what is their reference to context

there are scholars who know it .......

like baqar nisar

so i can contact them

and rather then getting a fatwa of some mujtahid , i can get hadeeth with reference to context :!!!:

and if i dont get one

i ll wait

rather then acting on guesses

is this what u r asking for?

if no , please feel free and ask.......

and if u think there was some point which is yet not covered in this post , please do repeat ....................

inshallah i ll be there for u

thanks once again

may Allah bless u

and give u and me the strength to serve masoomen amin

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Wslam

Ya Ali Madad, May Imam-e-Zaman (as) help us inshallha

Again thanks for your detail reply and also thanks for your passion

The last reply/post was only intent to list your entire concept regarding the subject topic

Ok, my dear I eliminate the point-2 (no evidence of presence of Fiqiha ------- Imams (as))

Now it’s clear that you understand it’s not possible for every common man to get Hadees from Hadees book, by their own directly.

There are about 16,000 Hadees in KAFI only and approximately we have about 100,000 plus Hadees collectively (off course repetition is there) from all 14 Masomeen (SA)

If you or anybody wants some guidance regarding anything you will go to Baqar Nisar or any scholar (as per your best judgment) that have good knowledge, and simply asked, ok

What he (Mr. Baqar Nisar or any other scholar) will tell or inform you,

First he will tell you weather any Hadees/guidance is available or not in the Hadees Books (as he have knowledge of all the available material), if he tell you there is no Hadees or guidance then you will try to avoid that matter

If Hadees is available then he will tell you the Hadees from Masomeen (as) [not fatwa / guess / his assumption]

He will also tell you the reference to context of that Hadees

If there are two different Hadees for same matter he will also tell you which is best in your case as per Sirat-e-Masomeen (SA) (he have good knowledge of Sirat-e-Masomeen)

He will tell you the authenticity of Hadees wording

If any Hadees is narrated from the Monafiq or enemies of Ahlaybat (as) he also tell you (he have good knowledge of all the narrators (RAVIs) )

If any Hadees is against the Quran its means it’s not authentic (he have good knowledge of Quran and its Arabic also)

He knows all Hadees from directly from original text not from translation (he have good knowledge of Arabic also)

So he will tell you the complete picture, all the related knowledge

At the same time if you find any other scholar having more knowledge then (suppose Mr. Nisar Baqar) and previous scholar also accept this you will contact them also been continue in future as he have very good knowledge, (so its your responsibility to asked from best knowledge scholar) OK

Am I right (off course you are not taking fatwa / guess / his assumption)

So now you are accepting the need of Islamic Scholars have best possible knowledge of all the relevant subjects (I am not using the word mujtahid)

Now first time I am quoting from Quran we can say this is the first rational basis

QURAN:009.122

TRANSLATED BY YUSUFALI: Nor should the Believers all go forth together: if a contingent from every expedition remained behind, they could devote themselves to studies in religion, and admonish the people when they return to them,- that thus they (may learn) to guard themselves (against evil).

TRANSLATED BY SHAKIR: And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?

Yes my dear the other issues, raised will talk later,

Thanks

brother sirat thank u very much for your prayers

i m in debt to u and u know this

I am again saying i don’t understand this sentence

Edited by snaeemshah
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(bismillah)

(salam)

thank u very much brother for once again sparing time for me

this shows the concern which u have for me and others ........... this is a good thing

and healthy discussions are always good , this helps u in learning

now this post of yours is quite nice and good however i still have a few points , and so i ll take some time of yours

Now it’s clear that you understand it’s not possible for every common man to get Hadees from Hadees book, by their own directly.

i would say that it is not impossible for every common man to get ahadeeth from books

yes it may be a bit difficult

but it cannot be termed impossible

rather for those problems which we face commonly aimmah have ordered us to learn them by heart like if u have seen the main page of syed sistani's tozeeh ul masail , it is written that

imam baqir said

halal oor haram ko samgho warna tom ghair mohazzab ho

that is understand halal and haram else u will be uncivilzed

bihar ul anwar

and as for the other issues , aimmah have said like .....

let me gift u the order of imam of our time

“and it is asked as to how you would benefit in the time of my occultation …it would be similar to the sun which has been covered by the clouds..i m a source of peace(aman?) for the residents of earth just like stars are for residents of sky….so close the doors of question which you are not dealing with and do not try to know what u do not need and pray more and more for the end of occultation as there is benefit{ease} (?) for you”

bihar ul anwar , vol 12 page 778

so what i want to say is that what u need , u have to learn

and what u dont need , no need

though it is good to learn as they are the saying of our aimmah

and remember holy prophet has said that it is compulsory , WAJIB , upon every muslim ,male and female, to gain knowledge .....

there are plenty of ahadeeth on gaining knowledge and the reward for this

and i will not be quoting them........

but i hope u accept that gaining ilm is compulsory upon every muslim, male or female?

What he (Mr. Baqar Nisar or any other scholar) will tell or inform you,

First he will tell you weather any Hadees/guidance is available or not in the Hadees Books (as he have knowledge of all the available material), if he tell you there is no Hadees or guidance then you will try to avoid that matter

If Hadees is available then he will tell you the Hadees from Masomeen as.gif [not fatwa / guess / his assumption]

He will also tell you the reference to context of that Hadees

If there are two different Hadees for same matter he will also tell you which is best in your case as per Sirat-e-Masomeen (SA) (he have good knowledge of Sirat-e-Masomeen)

He will tell you the authenticity of Hadees wording

If any Hadees is narrated from the Monafiq or enemies of Ahlaybat as.gif he also tell you (he have good knowledge of all the narrators (RAVIs) )

If any Hadees is against the Quran its means it’s not authentic (he have good knowledge of Quran and its Arabic also)

He knows all Hadees from directly from original text not from translation (he have good knowledge of Arabic also)

So he will tell you the complete picture, all the related knowledge

please understand that

u have to gain ilm

it is wajib my dear , there is no escape , u cannot make excuses on this pretext that it is difficult or what

ok, i accept that it needs time but u have to spare sometime atleast...........say 30 mins a day

because if u sit idle , and even get the life of nooh , u ll remain a jahil

but if u study even 30 min a day

it means in one month , u have studied 15 hours and continue multiplying

but if u dont study .......... and it is zero ............ then the power of zero is that even if u multiply mount Everest with zero,the result will be a zero .................. so if someone is there and u r asking him any problem , atleast u can ask him

"sir , what is the basis of you saying this?"

the problem of the mujtahids is that u have to follow them blindly..... u cannot ask them as to what is the reason of their fatwa for example

if u read the tozeeh ul masail of sistani , published by JAMIA TAALIMAT E ISLAMI KARACHI,the idara or organization has written

islam aziz hi shariat gharra ke faroo masail ka tafseeli maakhiz (quran , hadeeth , ijma , aql) se sharai hokam istinbat karna ka nam ijtihad hai

oor mujtahid ke batai hoa fatwa ko baghair daleel ke janna oor un per aml karne ka nam taqleed hai

there are two important points which need attention here

one is istinbat and other is BAGHAIR DALEEL

now istinbat “ means the statement which a faqih issues as per his thinking

(al-munjid)

and baghair daleel , it means u have to blindly follow what your maraja has said ...........

At the same time if you find any other scholar having more knowledge then (suppose Mr. Nisar Baqar) and previous scholar also accept this you will contact them also been continue in future as he have very good knowledge, (so its your responsibility to asked from best knowledge scholar)

ok listen

if someone is right , he is right , no matter what his qualification is

and if someone is wrong , he is wrong , again no matter what his qualification is

u can never say that if mr xyz is the most knowledgeable , he cannot err

of course , except masoomen anyone and every one can err

and that is why mola mushkil kusha said

dont see who is saying, just see what is he saying

so u have to see who is saying and what are the basis of his saying so

but as i told u , u dont have the option of doing that in usoolism

if your maraja does it , it is his favor , otherwise u cannot ask for it............

the proof i have given u , u can always check.............

TRANSLATED BY YUSUFALI: Nor should the Believers all go forth together: if a contingent from every expedition remained behind, they could devote themselves to studies in religion, and admonish the people when they return to them,- that thus they (may learn) to guard themselves (against evil).

TRANSLATED BY SHAKIR: And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?

have u read the tafseer of this ayat by aimmah ???

or just because u have seen that there is this word tafaqqa fid deen , so u r quoting it ?

ok listen

baqar nisar has covered this ayat very well in his book kashaf ul haqqaiq , page 54.... i would request u to go and read that

and on page 61 of the said book he quotes a hadeeth from ILLUL USH SHARIE ,sheikh sadooq

however i will quote it from ayoon akhbar ur raza , vol 2 page 532, baab 33 , urdu (remember the pakistani version of the book is two in one ..... both vol are in one binding , so the page may vary ........)

"ye fariza -e- haj hi to hai jis ke zariya logon ko (haj per jane walo ko ) aimmah tahireen ki akhbar (riwayat o ahadeeth )ke bare ma ma'lomat hasil hoti hain chahe woh kisi bhi ilaqae ya simt se ayae hoon . un maloomat se woh log khud bhi behra war hote hain oor dosro ko bhi (apne ilaqa ma ja kar ) un ta'limat se motalla' kar ke faida pohanchate hain chonancha irashad-e-khudawandi bhi hai ka"

122. ۞ æóãóÇ ßóÇäó ÇáúãõÄúãöäõæäó áöíóäúÝöÑõæÇ ßóÇÝøóÉð ۚ ÝóáóæúáóÇ äóÝóÑó ãöäú ßõáøö ÝöÑúÞóÉò ãöäúåõãú ØóÇÆöÝóÉñ áöíóÊóÝóÞøóåõæÇ Ýöí ÇáÏøöíäö æóáöíõäúÐöÑõæÇ Þóæúãóåõãú ÅöÐóÇ ÑóÌóÚõæÇ Åöáóíúåöãú áóÚóáøóåõãú íóÍúÐóÑõæäó

oor jabka surat haj ki ayat ma irshad hoa ka

28. áöíóÔúåóÏõæÇ ãóäóÇÝöÚó áóåõãú æóíóÐúßõÑõæÇ ÇÓúãó Çááøóåö Ýöí ÃóíøóÇãò ãóÚúáõæãóÇÊò Úóáóìٰ ãóÇ ÑóÒóÞóåõãú ãöäú ÈóåöíãóÉö ÇáúÃóäúÚóÇãö ۖ ÝóßõáõæÇ ãöäúåóÇ æóÃóØúÚöãõæÇ ÇáúÈóÇÆöÓó ÇáúÝóÞöíÑó

so i would request u not to try to prove from this verse , that the duty of gaining ilm of religion is not A'INI and is KAFAI .....

and also donot try to prove that the word

áöíóÊóÝóÞøóåõæÇ Ýöí ÇáÏøöíäö

means USOOL-E-FIQAH

let me gift u what baqar nisar wrote .... just a small part of it

actually the whole story has been crafted because they say the word áöíóÊóÝóÞøóåõæ and so they thought that this is a good idea that we translate it into USOOL-E-FIQA which was compile some 200 years after the death of prophet ……….

Though this word has been used in quran in many other places and is always used in the sense of UNDERSTANDING like in quran Allah says…………………AFALA TAFAQQAHOON or ……………..WALAKINUL MONAFIQEEN LA YAFQAHOON ………….. or WALAKIN LA TAFQAHON TASBEEHOM

Even in the sayings of masoomen this word has been used in this sense for example when imam Hussein wrote a letter to habeeb ibn mazahir he wrote

MAN ABA ABDULLAH HIL HUSSEIN ILA RAJOL-E-FAQIH HABIB IBN MAZAHIR

So imam called habib by FAQIH MAN now someone would tell me please which ilm-e-fiqah or usool-e-fiqah habib had studied or where he use to give fatwas ???

But if u read the whole letter of imam ,u will understand what faqih is ……. Imam said

“From aba Abdullah Hussein to faqih habib ibn mazahir , o habib u r aware of our level and status so come for our help”

so faqih is one who is aware of the status and level of imam , it can not be specified for the order related to furo …..

now let us see what does this word faqih means

imam baqar was asked and he replied and the person said “faqih don’t say like this” and imam said “alas for u , have u actually seen who faqih is ?actual faqih is one who is not interested in this world and is more interested in that world and keeps himself attached with the sunnah of prophet”

al kafi ,book of aql, chapter 23, hadeeth 8

imam jafar said “a man becomes faqih by following two things – that he has left greed and and is not aware of (?in the sense of does not take care of ) what he is wearing or has eaten”

alkhisal, chapter khaslat hae do gana , hadeeth 23

kashaf ul haqqaiq , urdu ,page 58

and then he explains the concept of deen and shariat and he says

Remember that deen is the name of USOOL or beliefs where as shariat comprises of both USOOL AND FURU

Now usool were same from adam to last prophet so Allah says

INADDEEN A’INDAULLAH HIL ISLAM

That is deen was always islam , since the usool were same but since shariat were a combination of usool and furu , so in its totality , shariat did change not in the sense of usool but furu and that is why we had 5 sharaits

And as evidence we would quote allama hilli , he writes in his book AHSAN UL AQAID , page 8 and 9 that :-

“quran and usool are called deen , where as usool and furu together are called shariat so deen was the same from adam till the last prophet however shariat were five as is in quran in surat as shoora

13. ۞ ÔóÑóÚó áóßõãú ãöäó ÇáÏøöíäö ãóÇ æóÕøóìٰ Èöåö äõæÍðÇ æóÇáøóÐöí ÃóæúÍóíúäóÇ Åöáóíúßó æóãóÇ æóÕøóíúäóÇ Èöåö ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó æóãõæÓóìٰ æóÚöíÓóìٰ ۖ Ãóäú ÃóÞöíãõæÇ ÇáÏøöíäó æóáóÇ ÊóÊóÝóÑøóÞõæÇ Ýöíåö ۚ ßóÈõÑó Úóáóì ÇáúãõÔúÑößöíäó ãóÇ ÊóÏúÚõæåõãú Åöáóíúåö ۚ Çááøóåõ íóÌúÊóÈöí Åöáóíúåö ãóäú íóÔóÇÁõ æóíóåúÏöí Åöáóíúåö ãóäú íõäöíÈõ

He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.

this ayat means that deen was the same for these five prophets however shariat were different though all the prophets had the same deen which was islam as is in quran

“for Allah deen is only islam”

and for the differences in shariat Allah says

“and we made a shariat for each one of u and a clear path”

(surat maida 17)

because of the change in scenario(?) furu kept changing so there were five shariat but usool remained the same”

now the point is that had Allah used the word SHARIAT then tafaqqa in that could have meant thinking about furu but

here the word is deen which includes usool and , not furu …that is why imam hussein called habib faqih and said that you are aware of our status ……

so fiqah is the name used for maarifat of imam and faqih is the one who has the marifat ……………

source :- kashaf ul haqqaiq , page 62 , urdu

QUOTE (toocoool66 @ Mar 15 2009, 04:55 PM) *

brother sirat thank u very much for your prayers

i m in debt to u and u know this

I am again saying i don’t understand this sentence

siratoaliunhaqqun is a member of shiachat , who has been my teacher as well as friend

i take him more as my teacher and when he said in this thread

O' The Giver of Comfort shower your Municicience on Brother Ali Raza and guide him Through Sabr(Mohammad saww) and Salaat(Ali a.s) and expose the Batil and make Shias United.

i thanked him and told him that well i m in debt to u that is

u have favors upon me ......... upke ihsan hai mujh per ..............so ma maqrooz hoon

it was not for u my dear

sorry i missed it last time

anyways

it is good to see u sparing time for me

may Allah bless u and all the momineen amin

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  • Advanced Member

Wslam

Thanks you too

First of all, you always try to write everything at ones and mixed everything and so many unnecessary writing and repetitions, try to learn standard and smart writing style, at least try

Second most important point, for support of every statement you try to give any Hadees without understanding it completely, here we are not talking about importance of knowledge (Ilm),

Who is denying this fact, without knowledge how can you reach to Islam and Masomeem (as), my dear here we are not talking about general term “Ilm”, even if you use word “Fiqh”

Suppose if somebody working as labor or officer or doctor or engineer and at night everyday he spend 1 or 2 hr to study the religion, what does it means now he is in a position to decide, even if he is studying Hadees regarding Fiqhai matters

This is the one of the example of using Islam for there own convenience, if you take any one Ayat of Quran and any one Hadees how can you make view over it,

The stages of knowledge is from zero to infinite,

So my dear whenever you give any statement first try to write clearly your concept, don’t just copy Hadees

In the last post you have said that for all those I don’t know I will go to asked to some scholar, if you have understanding that I don’t know regarding this matter and that scholar have knowledge in this field, then how can you make judgment over it (over that scholar), if you have already accept that you don’t know, if you know then why you go to (Baqar Nisar), for asking anything the only thing you can do is choose the best scholar as per you max

The ayat I have quote is not to prove but I was just want to write a well established general understanding that every rational man can understand easy and Quran also referring that (every man can not be a expert of everything suppose like me I am PHD in chemical engineering although I try to get more and more knowledge of Islam but what does is means I can make judgment?, yes I can make judgment in my field, but if I become ill I will go to the Doctor)

This is quite logical but I don’t know why you have miss concept over it

Your problem is that you have fixed mind set and it’s very difficult for you to think out of the frame

Any way, in the last post I was just trying to present the need of Islamic Scholars having best possible knowledge of all the relevant subjects

This morning I again read your all post just to read your mind, its my judgment over you (its up to you weather to accept of not) that its very difficult for you to concentrate

Like this Hadees (just to answer you I am taking your quotated Hadees) but I am not in favor of this methodology

“””””“and it is asked as to how you would benefit in the time of my occultation …it would be similar to the sun which has been covered by the clouds..i m a source of peace(aman?) for the residents of earth just like stars are for residents of sky….so close the doors of question which you are not dealing with and do not try to know what u do not need and pray more and more for the end of occultation as there is benefit{ease} (?) for you” bihar ul anwar , vol 12 page 778””””””

I don’t know what conclusion you have taken from above Hadees (without the authenticity, without the original wording just from translation, without the reference to context)

You have typical Indian Pakistani mind set like pulpit speaker, I am saying this, and this is the Hadees and Ayat from Quran or books that’s it, bravo bravo

Again in your referred Hadees from Rasool-e-Khuda(SA) regarding getting knowledge (Ilm) how can you use word wajib, do you know the original Arabic wording of that Hadees can you show me the word Wajib (although getting knowledge is must)

Now I am assure in the next reply of this post you again write some Hadees and Quotations from some where and again trying to deviate the topic and the most interesting thing is that in every post you write the same definition of Ijtayhad and about Mujtahid (very good my dear), Even I have already write to you that for time being I am accepting you (not really) but just to proceed this discussion, but I think you are not understanding English fully

Another very funny statement of you “””””ok listen if someone is right, he is right -----”””, my dear how do you make judgment until or unless you don’t have knowledge, please don’t write such wage statement and don’t attached the holy Hadees of Imam(AS) with your illogical statement what Imam says “see what is he saying” means you must have knowledge to judged his statement how can you infer that don’t see the qualification of speaker, may be its about the character of that man, may be its about the tribe or nation or religion or language or may be in general covering all the thing

Suppose two men giving you two different news one man is momin and other man is monafiq and you don’t know about that subject what you do, if you are saying that I will see the character of that man then as per your interpretation you are against the above referred Hadees of Imam Ali (as) otherwise you are against the Hadees of other Amima(AS)

Now, waiting for your un-systemic, un-conclusive, full of quotation using for your own favor reply

I don’t know what will happen if you discussed with anybody regarding Toheed, Adel-e-Ahlahi, or may be proof of Qayamat

Anyway thanks, may GOOD guide you

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assalamoallaikom

thanks for sparing time for me again

and adding to my knowledge and giving me an opportunity to speak up my mind

for in this way i can improve my understanding of islam and also help those who have less understanding .........

First of all, you always try to write everything at ones and mixed everything and so many unnecessary writing and repetitions, try to learn standard and smart writing style, at least try

inshallah i ll try

and i m sorry for bothering u with my last post

though i wrote what i thought was essential , may be u dont like it ......... so i apologize ...........

This is the one of the example of using Islam for there own convenience, if you take any one Ayat of Quran and any one Hadees how can you make view over it,

The stages of knowledge is from zero to infinite,

So my dear whenever you give any statement first try to write clearly your concept, don’t just copy Hadees

first i believe that no one should use islam for their own convenience as u say

and also i do not make my own concept , but follow what aimmah have said

so that is why i have been quoting ahadeeth

for example

u have written

The ayat I have quote is not to prove but I was just want to write a well established general understanding that every rational man can understand easy and Quran also referring that (every man can not be a expert of everything suppose like me I am PHD in chemical engineering although I try to get more and more knowledge of Islam but what does is means I can make judgment?, yes I can make judgment in my field, but if I become ill I will go to the Doctor)

now if u see u quoted a general understanding

and i wrote the explanation by imam raza of this verse

why?

the reason is

This is the one of the example of using Islam for there own convenience

if i m wrong , u should correct me

right?

and if i m right , u should accept it

else u will damage no one but yourself .............

In the last post you have said that for all those I don’t know I will go to asked to some scholar, if you have understanding that I don’t know regarding this matter and that scholar have knowledge in this field, then how can you make judgment over it (over that scholar), if you have already accept that you don’t know, if you know then why you go to (Baqar Nisar), for asking anything the only thing you can do is choose the best scholar as per you max

my dear through out this conversation of ours , what u r trying to prove is the significance of scholars

atleast this is what i feel

if it is not the case , please do tell me

but the point is that neither me nor baqar nisar is against some people who have specialized in the field of religion

i have told u this thing before

do u know what is usoolism and akhbarism?

u know there are akhbari scholars as well?

for example many great names in the shiite world , were actually akhbari

like hur amili, baqar majlisi , to name a few

u know baqar nisar is an akhbari and this does not mean that he says that he is against scholars

he is against ijtihad

and he writes in one of his books that

"i m not against mujtahids , as he is just a representative of a system

and i m against that system and that system is known as ijtihad "

the problem which u may be facing is that u say

Now I am assure in the next reply of this post you again write some Hadees and Quotations from some where and again trying to deviate the topic and the most interesting thing is that in every post you write the same definition of Ijtayhad and about Mujtahid (very good my dear), Even I have already write to you that for time being I am accepting you (not really) but just to proceed this discussion, but I think you are not understanding English fully

my dear brother , i have time and again told u that u should share with me the definition of ijtihad

what do u think?

u see i have given u definition and they are not my definitions

i have quoted them from usooli sources

let me explain for u

first let me quote u

(every man can not be a expert of everything suppose like me I am PHD in chemical engineering although I try to get more and more knowledge of Islam but what does is means I can make judgment?, yes I can make judgment in my field, but if I become ill I will go to the Doctor)

so we start with the famous doctor wala example

u see when u get ill u go to doctor

ok

this is good

now what does the doctor do?

he treats u

right?

how?

by his personal likings or experiences

OR

by the standard medical protocols and treatment given in the book

i tell u what

brother i m also a doctor and inshallah will be an anesthetist

we do not treat patients by our likings

we treat him by the standard protocols given in our books..........

and if someone is not doing this , he is violating the ethics of medical profession

i know in pakistan , there are nothing such as medical ethics but this is our mistake

otherwise in medical profession , u have to follow the protocols

now say u have a problem in religion

there are two ways of solving it

one is that u read quran , and hadeeth , do ijma and use aql ( i m not commenting on the last two at this time) and then u give a personal statement or fatwa ........... this is usooli method or ijtihad

the other is u read quran and ahadeeth and see if the problem is there , or not

if it is there , u follow that or else do ihtiyat ......... that is u see akhbar of masoomen ....for the sake of solving solution.......this is the akhbari method

baqar nisar is an akhbari , the reason why he gained a lot of criticism is that nowadays u dont find that many akhbaris around ..............

and people think that ijtihad is reading some sort of ilm which deals with understanding quran and sunnat and this is a process for seeing what is there in these two ........ though they dont have any idea about what istinbat or daleel-e-aql means ...............

and faqih or mutahid means same ................

that is why i have been time and again asking u

to please define what do u mean by ijtihad ?

which u r not telling me...

rather u r trying to prove that there is need for scholars

which i had not denied in the first place

i have told u that u can ask learned people and gain ilm......

but i said that i will follow the standard protocols , that is , ahadeeth of masoomen

i hope u get me this time

and let me give u the definition of ijtihad from another source ...... this is from the tozeeh ul masail of sistani

read

** Mujtahid is a jurist competent enough to deduce precise inferences regarding the commandments from the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the holy Prophet by the process of Ijtihad. Ijtihad literally means striving and exerting. Technically as a term of juri sprudence it signifies the application by a jurist of all his faculties to the consideration of the authorities of law with a view to finding out what in all probability is the law. In other words Ijtihad means making deductions in matters of law, in the cases to which no express text is applicable. (See, Baqir Sadr, A Short History of 'llmul Usul, ISP, 1984).

link :-rulings of syed sistani about ijtihad and taqleed

sorry for bothering u again by reading more..............

In the last post you have said that for all those I don’t know I will go to asked to some scholar, if you have understanding that I don’t know regarding this matter and that scholar have knowledge in this field, then how can you make judgment over it (over that scholar), if you have already accept that you don’t know, if you know then why you go to (Baqar Nisar), for asking anything the only thing you can do is choose the best scholar as per you max

i did not talk about the concept of A'LAM in the last post

ok let me go for that this time

brother tell me that

do u accept that one who has less ilm cannot judge the level of ilm of the one who knows more?

for example if u have a teacher , he can judge the level of his students ,but the students cannot judge his level

though they may have a liking for his method of teaching

but do u think that u can check the level of your teacher when u have no or less ilm?

so if u cannot check the level of a person who has more knowledge , how will u actually determine who is the most learned

and as per syed sistani

the definition of aa'lam is

And if one knows that the verdicts of the Mujtahids differ with regard to the problems which we face in every day life, it is necessary t hat the Mujtahid who is followed be A'lam (the most learned), who is more capable of understanding the divine laws than any of the contemporary Mujtahids.

source is same

now u see the problem is that as u say

when one has no ilm , how can we check about a particular issue ?

that is why i told u that u should ask your maraja or whosoever u r asking ,

"sir what is your basis of u saying this?"

atleast u can check this

so the main problem is not this

u can always learn about one issue ............... u can even check the ahadeeth about a particular issue ..........(i know a person whose son has ulcerative colitis and he knows about it even more than me :squeez: because he read about it from different sources )

but my dear , how would u actually check who is the MOST LEARNED , when u accept that u dont have the knowledge ?

and interesting is the fact that there are more than 30 mujtahids and all are claimed to be AALAM , (and please do not say that they do not claim , because if they are not claiming to be aalam......... why are they then graded as maraja ?)

now the problem is that the most learned can be one

how will u check it ?

now u may say that well read the third fatwa of syed sistani, it deals with this and it is

3. There are three ways of identifying a Mujtahid, and the A'alam:

* when a person is certain that a particular person is a Mujtahid, or the most learned one. For this, he should be a learned person himself, and should possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or an A'alam;

* when two persons, who are learned and just and possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or the A'alam, confirm that a person is a Mujtahid or an A'lam, provided that two other learned and just persons do not contradict them. In fact, being a Mujt ahid or an A'lam can also be established by a statement of only one trusted and reliable person;

* when a number of learned persons who possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or an A'lam, certify that a particular person is a Mujtahid or an A'lam, provided that one is satisfied by their statement.

source is the same link which i have given u ........... so please do counter check

now in the very first point, syed sistani has accepted what i told u before

that is ,u cannot check if u have no ilm

in the next method which syed sistani says is

that u should see what learned people have to say

now here there is problem again

u see i can make u meet with many learned people

and they all will give u different names of marajas

they themselves clash.............and have differences ...........

so now what ?

whom will u accept now?

and again the point is the same

one who has less ilm cannot check the level of one who has more ilm

for example , i or u cannot check the level of ilm of our aimmah

now the point is that those who are learned , is there ilm more than the maraja ?

if yes , then of course they can check the level of ilm of maraja

but the point is

why are they not the marajas then?as they are now aalam.......

and if they have less ilm , how can they actually check in the first go?they are facing the same problem like me......

this concept of aalam sounds very nice in books but on ground ,

can u tell me , rather prove me who is the most learned nowadays ?

so that i can follow him............

i ll be thankful to u bhai if u actually solve this puzzle for me ...........

Another very funny statement of you “””””ok listen if someone is right, he is right -----”””, my dear how do you make judgment until or unless you don’t have knowledge, please don’t write such wage statement and don’t attached the holy Hadees of Imam(AS) with your illogical statement what Imam says “see what is he saying” means you must have knowledge to judged his statement how can you infer that don’t see the qualification of speaker, may be its about the character of that man, may be its about the tribe or nation or religion or language or may be in general covering all the thing

Suppose two men giving you two different news one man is momin and other man is monafiq and you don’t know about that subject what you do, if you are saying that I will see the character of that man then as per your interpretation you are against the above referred Hadees of Imam Ali as.gif otherwise you are against the Hadees of other Amima(AS)

ok listen again

bhai what i said was

that even a momin can err , right?

or u think he is masoom and cannot err?

so u should not follow anyone blindly ..............

u should see who is saying what and on what basis

because how can u be sure that the one u r declaring as momin is actually a momin?

and the one u r declaring a monafiq is actually a munfiq ?

and what then that in that particular case the momin has erred ?(if u somehow come to know that he is a momin)

that is why i said

if something is right ,it is right , no matter who is saying it ................

and if something is wrong , it is wrong ,

so u should better see what is right and what is wrong

do not judge the truth by personalities , judge personalities by truth

that is

HAQ KO SHAKHSIAT SE NA JANO

SHAKHS KO HAQ SE JANO

this is what sunnis do ...... u ask them who was correct in the battle of jamal and they would say

"both were correct "

and if u say" why"?

"they say u see on one side there is bibi ayesha and on other there is hadrat ali

and they both cannot err or be wrong ....................

they were mujtahids , so one did correct ijtihad , and so gets double reward , other did incorrect ijtihad and so get one reward "

sorry bhai again for bothering u with such a long post

i hope u will forgive this mistake of mine again

may Allah bless u amin

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  • Advanced Member

Salam

Thank you too, sorry I have doubt that you are a doctor (hahhha) because of your English may be its fault of Pakistani educational system, but any way feel very happy that I am discussing with educated person.

Now I am feeling that you are losing your passion, just wait my dear friend we go step by step. Let your cat out of the bag

You don’t have to say that you are Akbari,

I need your opinion and answer on this statement

The difference between the thinking of Akbari and Usooli is educational or intellectual and scholarly difference or its conspiracy in view of Akhbari and Usooli both, means Akhbari thinks all Usooli are against the Shia they are enemy so on , and at the same Usooli think about Akhbari ????

I expect your views as a highly educated man

Good come on next point

All though still I believe that time is not come between you and me to discussed the definition of Ijtayhad, but my dear now you are presenting different definition of Ijtayhad, where is the word presumed or presumption that you have used earlier ?

You have to understand that I am trying to precede this discussion step by step, during last few post I am saying that suppose for the time being I accept that there is no Mujtahid as per your understanding

Then what will be the situation, at the outset you was saying that everybody have to see or go to Hadees books and find solutions, now you are accepting (may be at the first you was accepting this) that we have need to asked from scholar

As I said you before that you have typical subcontinent pulpit speaker style (hahahhaha), any way no problem

How beautifully you have tried to confused the matter of judgment of level of scholar and his knowledge on specific matter

My dear suppose you don’t have enough knowledge on CASE-A but its you understanding that I don’t have enough knowledge,

You want to get opinion from some one who knows better then you, so the knowledge on CASE-A is different thing and knowledge about the person is different thing, like in your case you are a doctor.

The point of standards treatment procedures we discussed later

Thanks

Edited by snaeemshah
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