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In the Name of God بسم الله
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yonus

Shia,Sufis,Salafis,Jews and Christians

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Here is hadith says :

?May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians, for they took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship.? ?Aa?ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said, ?He was warning against what they had done.? Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1330, Muslim, 529.

As you know that most muslim world have graves inside the mosques begin with Muhammad (swa) in Madinah to Najaf ( Imam Ali AS ) To Karbala (Imam Hussein ( as ) ............. To Iran - Cairo ........... Etc .

Salafis has took the Hadith above as a proof that Prophet forbed to make from a grave as a place of worship ,so they destroyed all graves of Imams and Sahaba in Madinah ,but they couldn't destroy Prophet shrine lest of islamic states angar such as Egypt and India at that time .

The shia and sufis say hadith above talks about Jews and Christians who worship the graves like grave of Saint Peter in Vatican . I am not sure if they do this or not till some christian friends tell us .

Shia and Sufis agree that if grave is surround with wall or Fence ,then it is separated from the mosque ,therfore worship would be no doubt to Allah /God alone .

Saint Peter Tomp :

http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Pics/Pr...-05%20227pm.jpg

http://image52.webshots.com/52/8/43/97/496...97jfRlfz_fs.jpg

Lady Zainab in Cairo :

http://www.victorynewsmagazine.com/images/...abdamascus1.jpg

Edited by yonus

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(salam)

Considering the hadith was narrated by A'ishah, no Shi'ah will accept it.

From my knowledge, the graves were not actually "worshiped" but rather the people had over emphasized paying their gratitude to the dead by building their temples over them. Graves were heavily decorated, people kissed the gravesite and crawled on their knees in such shrines, and other practices. This is not a direct worship of the grave, but it's close enough to get me to not do it.

Whether or not the hadith is true, the issue of worshiping at a grave is one where I differ with most Shi'ah. The main reason people usually visit shrines is not for prayer, but rather to visit this dead person - some people treat the dead somewhat like demigods, by performing rituals at the shrine, making du'a to the dead guy, excessive crying or hitting of oneself, crawling, kissing, bowing, etc. when in fact the prophets (as) were simply people just like you and I. There is no need to make their graves a place of worship. We should visit mosques to worship God primarily. The prophets have received their reward, it's time you receive yours by putting Allah on your mind before anyone else.

I'm not saying we shouldn't visit the dead, because we should, we just shouldn't exaggerate. Just remember what the prophets had said - they did not instruct us to decorate their graves, they instructed us to worship Allah, seek Allah, and do acts of charity.

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Thank you Qaim ,

Why people always need ( waseet ) Mediator between God and man ?

Christian : O save me God in the name of Jesus . Sometimes save me Jesus . However christian has Text prove Jesus christ divinity .

Shia : O save me God in the right of Ali . Sometimes Save me O Ali while there is no text prove Ali's divinity .

Sufis also do something like that without text .

Salafis : they dont have mediator ,but they became fanatics and callous .

Jews : They don't have mediator ,but they are fanatics and callous .

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(salam)

Read the book 'Hero and Hero Worship' and you will understand this reoccurring factor in human history.

I will not read it even if it is written with golden water .

Out of polite you should say I lead you to a book so and so not READ the book ..

Second , you suppose to answer the question in short or make comment then lead me to that book .

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From my knowledge, the graves were not actually "worshiped" but rather the people had over emphasized paying their gratitude to the dead by building their temples over them. Graves were heavily decorated, people kissed the gravesite and crawled on their knees in such shrines, and other practices. This is not a direct worship of the grave, but it's close enough to get me to not do it.

I agree that "worship" is definitely the wrong term. I would prefer the term "closeness". It stems from an idea of being close to these holy personalities, because they were closest in themselves to Allah (swt). Therefore, it is merely an indirect way of being close to those who are already the closest to God. If we tried ourselves to get close to God without them, we would fail.

The Qur'an is decorated, kissed, and kept in nice condition. So why not the graves of Ahlul-Bayt (as) if they are indeed the second of the two weighty things?

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Here is hadith says :

?May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians, for they took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship.? ?Aa?ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said, ?He was warning against what they had done.? Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1330, Muslim, 529.

The shia and sufis say hadith above talks about Jews and Christians who worship the graves like grave of Saint Peter in Vatican . I am not sure if they do this or not till some christian friends tell us .

If I remember correctly, except for Ezekial who was buried in Babylon, all the Old Testament prophets were buried in the Holy Land. Jesus is the last prophet of Christianity and He has no grave. Peter was an apostle, not a prophet so I have no idea what that Hadith is all about.

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This is why I asked why people need mediator between man and God !

Because these mediators are closer to God then we will ever be. It's like asking for directions on the road for someone who actually knows the whole route to get to the destination, versus us laypeople who have no idea where to even start. If we try to go through the road ourselves with no guidance, we will most likely get lost and go astray somewhere. You've seen the results of such a destructive philosophy when it has pertained to Islamic thought.

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(salam)

What about Masjid al-Nabi? Or Masjid al-Haram? There are graves inside those masjid, yet it is the place to worship only Allah (SWT)

No doubt . Sunni sufis say if grave is surround with fence , it would make your pray direct to Allah even if grave facing Qiblah because that fence would separate the grave from the mosque .

Therefor it is prevented to pray in grave yard .

Saint Peter and Popes graves have not fence which makes it a part of the mosque not separated .

Imam Ali Arridha shrine .

http://www.anthro.uci.edu/html/Programs/An...ne-image006.jpg

Edited by yonus

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Because these mediators are closer to God then we will ever be. It's like asking for directions on the road for someone who actually knows the whole route to get to the destination, versus us laypeople who have no idea where to even start. If we try to go through the road ourselves with no guidance, we will most likely get lost and go astray somewhere. You've seen the results of such a destructive philosophy when it has pertained to Islamic thought.

Don't you see that christians won in the race regarding to the mediator ! if they asked God in the name of Jesus they are right and if they asked Jesus christ for help (MADAD ) they are right for Christ is divine .

In Islam we have to be careful when we ask Allah . If we asked Allah in the right of Muhammad, Ali ,Hussein etc. we are right , but if we asked these holy men directly like ya Ali ( madad ) then we are mistaken for Ali is not divine .

What's your thought ?

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Once i heard a lecture by a imam who explained it best. He said both prayers reach Allah swt wether u call directly to him or use a mediater like Saint or prophet. A mediater is higher than us so his prayer on yr behalf has more chance to reach Allah faster. Its like broadband vs dialup. shias and sufis use fast broadband while wahabis on on dialup. however both will eventually reach Allah swt. So wahabs need to upgrade their internet lool.

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Here is a sunni hadith :

On the authority of Abdullah bin Abbas, who said : One day I was behind the prophet and he said to me:

"Young man, I shall teach you some words [of advice] : Be mindful of Allah, and Allah will protect you. Be mindful of Allah, and you will find Him in front of you. If you ask, ask of Allah; if you seek help, seek help of Allah. Know that if the Nation were to gather together to benefit you with anything, it would benefit you only with something that Allah had already prescribed for you, and that if they gather together to harm you with anything, they would harm you only with something Allah had already prescribed for you. The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried."

narrated by Termithi, who said it is true and fine hadith

Imam Al (as) said to his son :

Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power.

Christians :

6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

I think the best way for me and my muslim brothers and sisters when we ask we ask Allah is to ask Allah alone . Let's not ask his servants directly whatever how holy they were .

However we should visit the shrines ,to say salam aleikum servants of God , read alfatihah and ziyarah but we should not ask them for anything save Allah alone .

What's your thoughts ?

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i dont think we as shia deal with our imams and prophet as waseet but rather as shafee3

it is used even in non rligouse way

in the name of those whom you love please help me > this can be heard from desperate man in the street

besides we think they are not dead but alive , thats why we say salam to them or are you seeing any sense in greeting a dead corsp

another thing mentioned alot regarding this is the quran vers regarding prophet asking Allah forgivness for those who ask prophet to ask Allah that

is that verse nonfunctional now ?

well thats besides the cave story vers and waseela verse

hope i help , this question bother me too for a while

anyway it is a faith thing and nothing to be proven

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Thank you ukht Yasameen ,

We are not talking about that ,but we are talking about asking the servants instead of God /Allah .

In Egypt forexample there are so many poor and persecuted people especially women , so she writes her demands in paper and deposit it inside the shrine of saint . Or she hold the fence of the shrine asking the saint for help .

Shia woman forexample whenever she stand up or sit down she asks Ali for power or help .

If that woman was a christian ,and she did that direct to Jesus christ , it would be fine for Jesus christ is son of God / God or God was in him according to christian creed .

I think since we don't have that divine mediator ,then we should leave that action because it rejects the oneness of God .

How to reply !

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Second , you suppose to answer the question in short or make comment then lead me to that book .

If you genuinely were interested, you'd take a glance at the book. A "short comment" isn't always enough.

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^And then you ask other to be polite to you. :rolleyes:

Respect is earned in this world mate. What goes around comes around.

Sorry my friend , but we are talking about Kitab and Sunnah and not man worship .

Prophet Muhammad (swa) said don't overpraise me like christians overpraise Jesus son of Mary ..etc .

What we find today is that christians follow text of their holy book which says that Jesus is divine /son of God / God was in him .

So if they worship Jesus ,they actually worship God who was in him . He forgive , heal , gives madad ..etc .

We the muslims don't have mediator like Jesus of christians ,nevertheless we do same as christians regarding to our mediators .

Either our saints are divine God dwelth in them or we have to stop asking them the MADAD .

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(salam) Brother yonus,

btw, are you speak about tawassul?

(wasalam)

No , I am talking about asking the saint directly . Event Tawasul Imam Ali has an opinion :

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace. Go ahead with the remembrance of Allah for it is the best remembrance, and long for that which He has promised to the pious, for His promise is the most true promise. Tread the course of the Prophet for it is the most distinguished course. Follow the sunnah of the Prophet for it is the most right of all behaviours. Learn the Qur'an for it is the fairest of discourses and understand it thoroughly for it is the best blossoming of hearts. Seek cure with its light for it is the cure for hearts. Recite it beautifully for it is the most beautiful narration. Certainly, a scholar who acts not according to his knowledge is like the off-headed ignorant who does not find relief from his ignorance, but on the learned the plea of Allah is greater and grief more incumbent, and he is more blameworthy before Allah.

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