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In the Name of God بسم الله

UMAA Singles Program

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It's an agency that exists to investigate crimes against the nation and interstate/organized crime. There's nothing wrong in principle with working toward those ends.

this is a nice theory. of course there's nothing wrong with fighting crime.

howver, for an actual description of what they have done and are trying to do with the muslim community (and why they are trying to recruit muslims), scroll up to abu hadi's posr

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this is a nice theory. of course there's nothing wrong with fighting crime.

howver, for an actual description of what they have done and are trying to do with the muslim community (and why they are trying to recruit muslims), scroll up to abu hadi's posr

They're trying to recruit Muslims because it helps in investigating cases where Muslims are suspected of criminal wrongdoing or conspiracy to commit criminal wrongdoing. In theory, Muslims would listen to their religious teachings, and would not be involved in planning to kill Americans from without or from within. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

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They're trying to recruit Muslims because it helps in investigating cases where Muslims are suspected of criminal wrongdoing or conspiracy to commit criminal wrongdoing. In theory, Muslims would listen to their religious teachings, and would not be involved in planning to kill Americans from without or from within. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

I take it you are not familiar with what has been going on in the Muslim community since 9/11. We have very little 'Islamic' terrorism in the US, and you should know that. Definitely no more than any other group - but I don't see them targeted like the Muslims are. Especially among the Shia. So what is the FBI doing messing with Shia scholars and Shia groups? Entertaining themselves? Chasing out the scary Shia criminals who, I don't know, want to blow up Walmart or something?

I am honestly shocked that you would buy into the media hype stereotype that 'Muslims are terrorists'. This shows that you have little familiarity with what actually goes on in the Muslim community in the US. I have been involved with tons of Islamic groups there and have NEVER met anyone who supported any type of terrorism - in particular, violence against Americans on their own soil.

Yes, there was 9/11, but, first of all that was an isolated incident, and second it came from abroad and was a result of foreign policy, not 'Muslim criminals blowing things up cuz they're Muslim and like bombs'. It wasn't 'Islamic terrorism' - it could have happened from any country

As for what has going on, please refer to the above posts or perhaps do some web searches.

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ummm ok i did fundamentally miss the entire point. i felt u were arguing that it is NOT haraam to work for the FBI.

there are loads and loads of the hadith on not supporting injustice and oppression. do u really need me to point one out?

u know, there are people who will go to any lengths to avoid haram, to respect the maharim Allah. they will avoid taking medicines that have gelatine just in case gelatine is haram. they will avoid all music in case some music is haraam. they will wait a couple minutes before breaking their fast just to be sure it's not too early. some people use the analogy of a fence - u don't get right close up to the fence between halal and haram, but u stay safely on the side of the halal.

here... this is a very severe haram of Allah - much more severe than eating gelatine - and that is supporting injustice and oppression. if we are so cautious about what we eat and how we pray... why aren't we even more cautious about avoiding this GIGANTIC haram that is one of the biggest harams in creation?

salaam,

I will not debate with you if you only have emotionally charged responses. I am saying it is not, simply "haram to work for the FBI". I'm sure its conditionally haram, and there are theoretical conditions where it is halal, but its not as you are asserting.

1. What is the Islamic definition of supporting injustice? Having a job in the government of a tyrant seems to be your definition. That means Muslims should not be scientists, firefighters, policemen, or even FBI agents who dont work at all with Muslims, but work against gang violence. You cannot simply throw "supporting njustice" out there and assume that Islam defines it as you do.

2. In the latter part of your response, you began referring to the Islamic concept of "ihtiyaat". Ihtiyaat is sometimes good, however - it is not wajib.

3. From my first post in this thread, I have been asking for specific hadith on oppression. I do not care about the abstract, lets see some facts about how Shia Islam has defined 'supporting injustice'.

-

Fg

Edited by FriendlyGuy
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lol...

let us refer to ayatollah logics fatwa's. In Volume two of his risala, in book 5, and page 201 it clearly states:

"Working for the FBI is clearly haram. If the individual has a mental impediment and cannot understand this i remove them from my muqallideen automatically (see fatwa 1 for further information about retarded people)

Also amazingly he has another fatwa on page 202: "If the last fatwa was not understood, all of my muqallideen may ask the first black man that they meet on the street. He will tell you all about the fbi. If a person of color cannot be found you may substitute a mexican. In fact any minority group can be used to fulfill the wajibaat""

I suggest we all follow ayatollah logics fatwas. He seems to be a very good marja.

Edited by seyedmusawi
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I take it you are not familiar with what has been going on in the Muslim community since 9/11. We have very little 'Islamic' terrorism in the US, and you should know that. Definitely no more than any other group - but I don't see them targeted like the Muslims are. Especially among the Shia. So what is the FBI doing messing with Shia scholars and Shia groups? Entertaining themselves? Chasing out the scary Shia criminals who, I don't know, want to blow up Walmart or something?

I am honestly shocked that you would buy into the media hype stereotype that 'Muslims are terrorists'. This shows that you have little familiarity with what actually goes on in the Muslim community in the US. I have been involved with tons of Islamic groups there and have NEVER met anyone who supported any type of terrorism - in particular, violence against Americans on their own soil.

Yes, there was 9/11, but, first of all that was an isolated incident, and second it came from abroad and was a result of foreign policy, not 'Muslim criminals blowing things up cuz they're Muslim and like bombs'. It wasn't 'Islamic terrorism' - it could have happened from any country

As for what has going on, please refer to the above posts or perhaps do some web searches.

I'm a bit surprised to see someone basically outright deny the existence of Muslims in America who are up to no good.

Denying exaggerations such as "all Muslims are involved in terrorism" does not mean buying into the exaggeration that "no Muslims are involved in terrorism."

I'm sure the issue is politicized to a certain extent and that it is focussed on in a disproportionate way, but that does not mean the issue does not exist. As for false arrests and intimidation of innocent people, this is unfortunate, but it is something that happens in law enforcement, whether it be from overzealous or ill-intentioned individual investigators, or simply well-intentioned people who take their job seriously and do the best they can with the information and understanding they have. One of the consequences of knee jerk and simplistic reactions from the Muslim community such as saying it is outright haram to work for the FBI is that the FBI has a shortage of individuals with strong nuanced understanding of the Muslim community and of the languages spoken within to be able to effectively sort out the good from the bad in an efficient way with the least amount of incidental harassment of innocent people possible.

Edited by kadhim
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^ subhanallah. You have that amount of prejudice towards your Muslim brothers and sisters that you really think they are criminals?

This is all I have to say about how this discussion has gone, and I will leave the discussion here:

[Yusufali 2:67] And remember Moses said to his people: "Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer." They said: "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?" He said: "Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!"

[Yusufali 2:68] They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is!" He said; "He says: The heifer should be neither too old nor too young, but of middling age. Now do what ye are commanded!"

[Yusufali 2:69] They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us Her colour." He said: "He says: A fawn-coloured heifer, pure and rich in tone, the admiration of beholders!"

[Yusufali 2:70] They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what she is: To us are all heifers alike: We wish indeed for guidance, if Allah wills."

[Yusufali 2:71] He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.

deaf_dumb_blind.jpg

Wasalaam.

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I'm speaking English, right? I think it's a pretty simple point to grasp. There are black sheep in every flock.

Listen: the issue is this. Bad guys exist within the community, and federal law enforcement has a legal and ethical duty to prevent these people from doing harm to citizens. Most of the community are good, but you need to sort out the bad from the good. How do you do that without investigating, following leads, etc? Do you expect law enforcement to magically identify the right person right away without ever inadvertently following any bad leads, or questioning of some innocent people along the way? What police force do you know of that has such abilities? You get leads, and you investigate. Sometimes these leads are dead ends; sometimes they go in the wrong direction. Often you question people to get more information in the process who don't have anything to do with wrongdoing. It's part of the process. If our community wants to ensure that the process of identifying the bad guys goes as efficiently as possible with as little friction for the innocent as possible, then some of us should consider careers in these investigative organizations. Our inside knowledge of the culture and languages would be of help in this respect, and can arguably help our fellow Muslims.

It's also wise to keep in mind that terrorism is but one of the areas the FBI researches. It also researches organized crime like the mob, serial/mass murderers, kidnappings involving interstate transport, sex trafficking, drug trafficking, and interstate fraud. Helping to combat any of these crimes is a good thing from the standpoint of our faith.

Edited by kadhim
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Wow. Just wow. I am disturbed that some of my brothers and sisters have such a warped sense of reality. Muslims, working for THOSE organisations? :wacko: I would put it down to ignorance, but I can see some members have put alot of effort into conveying what those people are REALLY about. So there is now no excuse to be ignorant. They don't care about muslim interests or muslim lives, so don't kid yourselves into thinking that they actually do.

Black sheep in every flock? Why is it that OUR flock is targeted and humiliated a disproportionate amount compared to other flocks? Do you think we truly have that many black sheep that we need to be hunted like witches? No...you can be sure that something much more sinister is going on.

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Wow. Just wow. I am disturbed that some of my brothers and sisters have such a warped sense of reality.

Back atcha.

Black sheep in every flock? Why is it that OUR flock is targeted and humiliated a disproportionate amount compared to other flocks?

I would first pose the question as to what your basis is for claiming that we are "targeted" and "humiated" a disproportionate amount, whether this comes from actual hard figures or simply from anecdotal evidence.

Second, I would question the usefulness of throwing around loaded language like "targeted" and "humiliated."

Supposing we take it as a given that a disproportionate level of attention is paid to our community, it doesn't take a huge amount of thought to figure out why this is so if we step outside our own self-absorption for a moment.

Fringe elements in our community were responsibile for the largest single event organized crime death toll in American history. It has since become well publicized that the perpetrators were active in training on American soil for years before, and that the attacks could have been prevented with more effective investigation. The FBI took a great deal of flack for this; they had information, but didn't put the pieces together.

Certainly they have made some mistakes since in trying to correct this, particularly in the first few years after, but to claim it's all a malicious witchhunting expedition without grounding in reality is borderline delusional. Of all Muslims, Shias, long victims of Wahhabbi/Salafi extremists, we should be aware that there are crazy dangerous elements amongst the community even here in North Amercia.

Do you think we truly have that many black sheep that we need to be hunted like witches?

I have a fair amount of contact with Muslims in the US, and for the most part, I have not gotten the impression that the feeling of being "hunted" is at all a common one.

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Reply received from Sayyed Muhammad Rizvi:

Salaamun 'alaykum,

Spy agencies are political appratus and used to promote the imperialistic agenda of their countries so a Muslim cannot work for such institutions. As far as the law-enforcing agencies are concerned, some areas of that would be okay while others not.

Was-salaam,

Sayyid M Rizvi

I stand corrected [for extending those traditions to apply to spy agencies] and I guess that should keep speculations at rest. Interestingly enough, he doesn't say you need permission from Imam where it is okay to work in areas for law-enforcing agencies. So, evidence would be appreciated from those who made this claim.

Edited by SpIzo
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Not that I a generally give much weight to what Rizvi has to say, but the FBI is not a "spy agency" (i.e. an intelligence agency). It is a criminal investigation agency.

Edited by kadhim
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I think I said, and if I did not say it, I am saying it now. It is not allowed to work with CIA, FBI, US ARMY, etc etc unless given permission by our Imam.

As Syed Rizvi said it is not allowed to work for CIA/FBI type agencies, it would be allowed to work for them if the Imam gave permission.

Ok.

Allah knows best.

Edited by SpIzo
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Salaam,

I think the notation by Sayyid M Rizvi is entirely appropriate, and it is the viewpoint I subscribe to. I would caution mr 'president' to please realize what a spy agency is, and which agencies in the US are spy agencies, and which ones are not. (i.e. while the FBI does have undercover/spy agents, it also has regular non-undercover agents).

Update:I appreciate the fatwa by Ayatollah Khamanei, which is in fact different then your claims of everything simply being haram, but rather, specifically focussing the forbidden acts into acts against believers. I also agree with and subscribe to this point of view. In the future, please supply rulings by accredited Mujtahids or their representatives, not your own warped viewpoints.

-

FG

Edited by FriendlyGuy
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Well I hope you give weight to Syed Ali Khamenei (ra)

Q1383: Is it permissible to snoop on the believers’ properties and pass information on them to oppressive governments, especially when such action inflicts losses on them or offend them?

A: This type of action is ḥarām. If the inflicted loss resulted from presenting information about the believers before the unjust rule, the informer should compensate for the losses.

Anyways this thread has really depressed me.

The question and the answer are not clearly relevant to the issue at hand. We see here the familiar phenomenon of someone (yourself) conveniently reading ambiguous undefined terms in whatever way fits his preconceived notions. Is the US an "oppressive govt?" The answer is not really self-evident, or black and white, in my mind. No indication of specific context is given in the question. Is there reasonable evidence to justify suspicion that these "believers" are engaged in criminal activity that may result in death of innocents? Is the loss or offense they will suffer that they will be arrested or go to jail for criminal activity for which they are guilty? Or is this surveillance merely for the sake of persecution and control? It is not clarified.

There's a world of difference between surveillance for the sake of oppression and surveillance for the sake of legitimate criminal investigation.

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^ You speak out of ignorance.

If you think that in light of Syed Khamenei's fatwa it is OK to work for FBI and/or CIA, you are mistaken. That is because you are unaware of the FBI/CIA activities.

And once I get the e-mail reply specifying FBI, it will be made clear inshAllah.

Hasan Sajjad

President

I don't really think that I would care if someone who fabricates false and incorrect rules and fatwas about Islam (and then intentionally misreads actual ones) thinks I'm an ignorant, but rather you should look specifically at what Ayatollah Khamanei has said. He focuses his ruling on efforts against believers. That is literally what he said.

Accordingly, it would be fine to work for these people so long as your efforts are not focused against believers. I know your instinct here is to completely fabricate some sort of "Presidential" ruling, but please do not put words in the "mouths" of the Maraja or any Masoomeen. That is, I believe, forbidden, and although I am not a scholar, nor do I presume to speak in their place, I'm sure there's quite a few people who think that is an act of Kufr against Allah to fabricate words and attribute them to the Masoomeen.

Re Sayyed Rizvi's rulings: Its only a matter of public knowledge that the FBI is not entirely a "spy" agency. Nor do they entirely, or even in the majority of their work, focus on Muslims. I mean are you even aware that America has gangs, drugs, mafias, white collar crime, etc etc? So you should, in how Shias actually utilize the rulings of the Maraja, apply the ruling to the situation at hand. Of course, if they do have spy positions, then the rulings apply, but what about non-spy positions?

-

FG

Edited by FriendlyGuy
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Thank you brother, it seems like some people on here need a rude awakening.

Everyone is aware of horror stories where things went wrong. But to use this to tarnish the entire organization is sloppy, amateur propaganda hour business. It's like making a list of ""police brutality"" incidents and using that to argue that noone should become a member of the police. It's weak.

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Everyone is aware of horror stories where things went wrong. But to use this to tarnish the entire organization is sloppy, amateur propaganda hour business. It's like making a list of ""police brutality"" incidents and using that to argue that noone should become a member of the police. It's weak.

Not a fair analogy. The job of local police is to enforce state laws against rape, murder, drug dealing, theft, etc. They do this many thousands of times per day without incidence. Once in a while, there is a case of brutality, and this should be dealt with. After 9/11, the main job of the FBI has been to round up those they 'thought' were involved in terrorism. Unlike with the local police, who need evidence to hold someone, all the FBI has to do is 'think' the person is involved. That is a single task, rather than the multitude of tasks that local police deal with. In doing this single task, they rounded up thousands of almost exclusively muslim residents or citizens. Some were tortured, some 'disappeared', most who were rounded up had their lives and careers/businesses and reputations destroyed and then were released without charges or had their convictions overturned. The ones that were convicted were not covicted on 'terrorism' charges but much lesser charges like fraud or immigration violations. The ones that were actually convicted of any sort of terrorist activity were less than 1/10th of 1%. This is equlvalent to the local police suspecting a drug dealer in the neighborhood, then rounding up the whole neighborhood. If the local police did that, there would be riots in the streets. The FBI does it and noone seems to mind, including many on SC.

I posted a few of the cases. If you want to know the true scale of this, come to Dearborn. Almost everyone here knows someone who was 'rounded up', held for days or sometimes weeks or months, then released without charges. It's not the local police who did this, in fact the community here has good relationships with local police and they actually helped in getting some of the 'rounded up' guys released. In Dearborn, not a single one was actually convicted of anything remotely similar to terrorism. Is that law enforcement or collective punishment? I'll let the readers decide.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Terrorism is one focus of the FBI. They also handle investigating any number of other federal crime issues the DOJ needs investigated:

  • Drug trafficking
  • White collar crime
  • Interstate kidnapping and human trafficking
  • Murderers operating in multiple states
  • etc.

There was politicization involved in terms of overhyping of the terrorist threat coming from above. There were errors made by the organization in investigations based on a number of reasons mentioned earlier:

  • Overcorrection for previous, well-publicized failure in "connecting the dots" prior to 9-11
  • Lack of manpower with strong knowledge of the Muslim community to aid in filtering through leads
  • Overzealous individual investigators seeking career advancement through investigation of politically visible priority issues
  • Individual investigators or administrators who were out on witchhunts

My read of the situation is this. I don't have any difficulty believing that there were individuals who were malicious. But for the most part, I think it was a matter of the investigators freaking out with insufficient information and erring too far on the side of caution. (Caution from the perspective of trying to protect the general public)

If you're trying to screen for something, whether it's screening for a disease with a test or a job candidate, you can make errors in one of two ways:

1. False positive/Type 1 error/alpha (you conclude someone is what you are looking for when they really aren't)

2. False negative/Type 2 error/beta (you conclude someone is not what you are looking for when in fact they are)

The probability of these two vary inversely to each other. You can decrease the probability of one type of error only at the cost of increasing the probability of the other. You can only decrease the probability of a bad guy going unrecognized and potentially doing something harmful by increasing the chance you arrest an innocent person. Justice is always a balance between these two concerns, i.e. not wanting to arrest the innocent and not wanting to let criminals go free. In the years post-911, the authorities decided that type 2 errors were less tolerable. And so they made as lot of mistakes, compounded by their lack of qualified personnel in terms of cultural and linguistic knowledge.

My perception is that the balance has been largely regained. Is this not your experience in Dearborn? Has the frequency of such harassment of innocent people not fallen off since the peak of post 9-11 hysteria?

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After reading many of these posts I sent the question to Ayatollah Nasir Makarim Shirazi's office. For those who may not know who he is, he is one of the leading scholars and teachers in the hawza of Qum. In 1994 after the death of Ayatollah Gulpaygani and Araki his name among others was given by the hawza of Qum as one of the Maraje that the people should follow, so he has been recognized as a leading marje for many years now.

Is it permisssible to work for government institutions like the FBI or CIA in the United State if there is a probability that these agencies engage in activities that are against the interests of Muslims

Dear questioner:

Answer: It has problem to cooperate with them according to religion.

May God bless you with health and happiness

Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi Office / Estefta’aat Section

Salaamun Alaykum

At least now there is one response from one of our maraje on this topic. Feel free to take guidance from it as you see fit.

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I don't have time to read the whole thread, but just wanted to make a few comments:

I'm speaking English, right? I think it's a pretty simple point to grasp. There are black sheep in every flock.

Listen: the issue is this. Bad guys exist within the community, and federal law enforcement has a legal and ethical duty to prevent these people from doing harm to citizens. Most of the community are good, but you need to sort out the bad from the good. How do you do that without investigating, following leads, etc? Do you expect law enforcement to magically identify the right person right away without ever inadvertently following any bad leads, or questioning of some innocent people along the way? What police force do you know of that has such abilities? You get leads, and you investigate. Sometimes these leads are dead ends; sometimes they go in the wrong direction. Often you question people to get more information in the process who don't have anything to do with wrongdoing. It's part of the process. If our community wants to ensure that the process of identifying the bad guys goes as efficiently as possible with as little friction for the innocent as possible, then some of us should consider careers in these investigative organizations. Our inside knowledge of the culture and languages would be of help in this respect, and can arguably help our fellow Muslims.

It's also wise to keep in mind that terrorism is but one of the areas the FBI researches. It also researches organized crime like the mob, serial/mass murderers, kidnappings involving interstate transport, sex trafficking, drug trafficking, and interstate fraud. Helping to combat any of these crimes is a good thing from the standpoint of our faith.

Exactly. Why is everyone on SC under the impression that the CIA and FBI are only out to get Muslims or harm Muslim countries?

The FBI/CIA do not deal with just terrorism, they now have a greater focus on the economy and economic crimes, since that is what Obama wants. They are INTELLIGENCE agencies. They are going to be receiving and gathering intelligence from a variety of sources whether Muslims work for them or not. Also, I think many of you are not aware of this fact, but the CIA does NOT formulate foreign policy. Their focus is simply on obtaining, analyzing and reporting intelligence. They do NOT make policy or warrant arrests, etc. Yes, their intelligence is used to make foreign policy, etc. by those who do it, but again, since when did gathering intelligence become haram?

I think most of you have a skewed view of the CIA/FBI. And not to mention, it's because of them that a lot of you are SAFE too. Do you all not care about your own security? It's a fact, there are terrorists out there and some of them happen to be Muslim, and it's because of the FBI/CIA's intelligence that we are also able to remain SAFE.

Well I hope you give weight to Syed Ali Khamenei (ra)

Q1383: Is it permissible to snoop on the believers’ properties and pass information on them to oppressive governments, especially when such action inflicts losses on them or offend them?

A: This type of action is ḥarām. If the inflicted loss resulted from presenting information about the believers before the unjust rule, the informer should compensate for the losses.

Anyways this thread has really depressed me.

Hasan Sajjad

President

Way to ask a question in which you will obviously get the answer you are looking for. "Snooping" on believers does not necessarily inflict losses on them. Why don't you ask the question in a NEUTRAL way. "Is it permissible to work at an agency which only gathers, analyzes and reports intelligence?"

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I had posted a thread not too long ago about whether people use religion as a way to feel superior to other people (whether it's Muslims feeling superior to Christians/Jews/etc., or Muslims feeling superior to other Muslims who they deem as practicing incorrectly). I think it would do everyone some good, myself included, to read that thread.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1855450

Edited by BabyBeaverIsAKit
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^ Sorry, that is not a question I asked. It is on his website.

You people are so naive, it is depressing. I actually don't even know what to say anymore, it is just frustrating. I hope you all grow up some day and realize the truth before you go rat on your fellow Muslims.

Hasan Sajjad

President

Well, Ayatollah Khamanei has clearly indicated that such behavior is patently haram, and no one disagreed with that - so I don't know what is so depressing to you, except for the fact that people relied on the ruling of the Marja, and not your extraneous rules that were not based upon the rulings of any Islamic source of law.

-

Friendly Guy

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I found this ahadith from Imam Reda(a.s.). I have posted the link to the book it is taken from below the citation

82. Work for Tyrannical Ruler

Sulaymān al-Ja‘fari reported, saying: “I asked Abū al-Hasan al-Ridā, peace be on him: ‘What do say about work for the tyrannical ruler (Sultan)?’ He answered: ‘O Sulaymān, work for tyrannical rulers, helping them, and striving for accomplishing their needs are equal to unbelief; likewise, looking at them deliberately is one of the great sins because of which one deserves the Fire.’[1]” Imām al-Ridā, peace be on him, made it permissible for a tyrannical ruler to undertake authority, provided that he should benefit the believers and drive harm away from them. He, peace be on him, said: “Surely Allah has friends along with the (tyrannical) ruler, through whom He drives (harm) away from His friends.[2]”

Al-Hasan b. al-Husayn al-Anbāri narrated on the authority of Abū al-Hasan al-Ridā, peace be on him, saying: “I wrote to him (al-Ridā) for fourteen years and asked him to permit me in order to work for the ruler (Sultan); in the last letter I wrote him and mentioned that my neck would be struck off, that the ruler said to me that I was a Rafidite (apostate), and that I refused to work for the ruler because of my being a Rafidite.

“So Abū al-Hasan (al-Ridā), peace be on him, wrote me: ‘I have understood your letter and what you have mentioned concerning the fear for your soul. If you become a governor, work according to the orders of Allah’s Messenger, may Allah bless him and his family, your helpers and scribes follow your creed, and you help the poor believers to the extent that you become one of them, then it is okay; otherwise, no.’[3]”

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l.../19.htm#_T46880

I noticed that in his answer, the Imam(a.s.) did not give an 'exception' from Sharia to those working for a tyrannical ruler. In other words, if you cannot stay within the sharia while fulfilling the duties of your position, don't do it at all.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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  • 2 weeks later...

those who are against umaa singles, what do you recommend the shia singles do? join the online dating/marriage sites and pay like $40 for each site? with all the spam/bots on those sites i really don't feel comfortable paying them anything at all. i mean until you guys work to help the singles out it's very easy criticizing and not so easy helping others in needs. singles are in need. no one is telling us to worship the people at umaa singles or to trust them 100% but i mean which other conferences can we go to today that we can fully trust? just go and do what you do in permissible ways and go. no one is going to force us to eat at places we don't think is free of najasit or anything like this...if you find a suitable wife then good if not then you don't have to go back to umaa conferences again, criticism is good but over criticizing and trying to condemn others from going...until the naysayers can provide a better, free solution, then i don't know what else to suggest.

Edited by gogiison2
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^ sorry brother i am a little confused. so the singles events are free but if i want to register to become an employee or organizer of UMAA it would cost me?..because apparently i am already registered for the may22-24 events that they're having. thanks for clarifying.

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^ LOL. ya i didn't pay anything yet and don't plan to. i think i even asked a month ago if their was fees and some lady named maryam from umaa says it's free if i'm not mistaking. i agree if what you say is true about umaa, i don't feel comfy giving my cash to them either. i don't know if i'd find a wife at umaa i am picky in a good way though at least i think so because living in a non muslim nation if wife goes against you..good luck trying to explain things. i know this 1st hand.

Edited by gogiison2
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  • 4 weeks later...

well sayed ammar showed up and i enjoyed his lectures, as always. mashaAllah. the thing i didn't like was the speed dating type thing they had. with so many non hijabis it kind of felt like i am approaching a girl at a local shopping mall or maybe even school. i mean alhumdulillah i met some interesting brothers there and i did end up paying the student fee of $35. it was nothing like hassan_sajjad was describing, well at least not the lectures that i attended. sayed ammar had a lecture about islam and contemporary times and what it means to follow Rasool today and i don't think any non muslim's lecture could compete with that. so i dont know what hassan_sajjad meant at all. one of the main things that i didnt like was that multiple events were going on simultaneously which i felt was odd and they were almost always late with starting their programs on the specified times. other than that, i guess it's always a good thing being around so many muslims umm 'trying' to do what's right. lol i think that's the best way i could put it.

Edited by gogiison2
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  • Moderators

If any of you are thinking about being a part of this organization, consider this.

I did a previous post about 'Why joining the FBI is not a good thing. Now here is more evidence.

Here is a quote from Lynndie England, Abu Gharib guard convicted of torture

Q: How did you react when Graner told you how the detainees were being treated?

A: Of course it was wrong. I know that now. But when you show the people from the CIA, the FBI and the MI the pictures and they say, "Hey, this is a great job. Keep it up", you think it must be right. They were all there and they didn’t say a word. They didn’t wear uniforms, and if they did they had their nametags covered.

Here is the article

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/03/convicted-abu-g/

Also, more torture photos from Abu Gharib were just released. Please, br and sis, if you have a weak heart or stomach, or get enraged easily, I suggest you not look at them. They involve unspeakable acts against women, girls, and men. The FBI was part of this, according to England. The photos are at

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=96365...ctionid=3510203

May Allah(s.w.a) curse anyone who was involved with this or knew about it and stood by and did nothing. May Allah(s.w.a) place them at the bottom of the pits of hell with the cursed Yazid(la) and Muiwiyah(la)

Inna lilahe wa Inna Ilayhi Rajeaoun

This is one of those days I feel like renouncing my citizenship

Edited by Abu Hadi
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