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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sahaba who ran away in Uhad

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mimran

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AA brothers,

I was listening to one of the lectures given by a Salafi scholar Makki Al-Hijazi and the lecture is about defending Khulafa's. Anyway he says' that the shia blame hazrat umar and other sahaba who ran away during the battle of Uhad and hold it against them, but since Allah (swt) has forgiven this mistake why do shia's still hold this against them?

Can someone please clarify this for me?

wsalam

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WA wr wb..

From what I understand if we're forgiven it doesn't necessarily mean a future sin-free life, does it? Kind of like when we go to Hajj and at Arafat it's said our sins are forgiven but I know of people sinning when they come back from Hajj.

If Allah forgave them for that specific disobedience then it is what it is. Now what about what happens afterwards. Also, momin must seek out which ways to follow or whom to follow by these "clues" that we are left with. As it says there is enough light for one who wants to see. In Islam and even I think non muslims will agree that we pretty much are obliged to follow the most knowledgeable. The thing that confuses most is who is that most knowledgeable person is. The overall choice is ours but I sure hope we can explain our ways if Allah questions us on Qiyamat.

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AA brothers,

I was listening to one of the lectures given by a Salafi scholar Makki Al-Hijazi and the lecture is about defending Khulafa's. Anyway he says' that the shia blame hazrat umar and other sahaba who ran away during the battle of Uhad and hold it against them, but since Allah (swt) has forgiven this mistake why do shia's still hold this against them?

Can someone please clarify this for me?

wsalam

We hold nothing against Umar and Co on this issue. Allah (swt) indeed forgave them. But, remember that they did this a number of times - before Uhud, at Uhud and after Uhud. Surely, Allah (swt) only foirgave them on some, NOT ALL, of these occasions.

Secondly, the incident exposes their hypocrisy. In Islam, it is compulsory to prefer the life, comfort and happiness of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to your own. In these battles, Umar and Co preferred their own lives to that of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), prepared to sacrifice him to save their own heads!

This is hypocrisy of the highest order. And this is why these events are important in shaping our view of Umar and Co.

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We hold nothing against Umar and Co on this issue. Allah (swt) indeed forgave them. But, remember that they did this a number of times - before Uhud, at Uhud and after Uhud. Surely, Allah (swt) only foirgave them on some, NOT ALL, of these occasions.

Secondly, the incident exposes their hypocrisy. In Islam, it is compulsory to prefer the life, comfort and happiness of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to your own. In these battles, Umar and Co preferred their own lives to that of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), prepared to sacrifice him to save their own heads!

This is hypocrisy of the highest order. And this is why these events are important in shaping our view of Umar and Co.

good one !!! :!!!:

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We hold nothing against Umar and Co on this issue. Allah (swt) indeed forgave them. But, remember that they did this a number of times - before Uhud, at Uhud and after Uhud. Surely, Allah (swt) only foirgave them on some, NOT ALL, of these occasions.

Secondly, the incident exposes their hypocrisy. In Islam, it is compulsory to prefer the life, comfort and happiness of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to your own. In these battles, Umar and Co preferred their own lives to that of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), prepared to sacrifice him to save their own heads!

This is hypocrisy of the highest order. And this is why these events are important in shaping our view of Umar and Co.

wsalam Toyib,

I understand the significance of deserting prophet pbuh but since we hold it against them in particular from Uhad, i am sure you would have heard numerous lectures on it by shia scholars, but if they are forgiven by Allah swt for this particular one, it seems a bit inappropriate .................

Secondly the claim was they ran because of the wrong news that prophets had died ..................................... so hence it is not really leaving the battle field???????????????????????????????????

any light based on the above?

wsalam

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wsalam Toyib,

I understand the significance of deserting prophet pbuh but since we hold it against them in particular from Uhad, i am sure you would have heard numerous lectures on it by shia scholars, but if they are forgiven by Allah swt for this particular one, it seems a bit inappropriate .................

Secondly the claim was they ran because of the wrong news that prophets had died ..................................... so hence it is not really leaving the battle field???????????????????????????????????

any light based on the above?

wsalam

I think I mentioned that they ran away, not just at Uhud. Anyway, they did not run away because they thought the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was dead. He was calling them. They heard his voice. So, they were certain that he was alive and in danger.

[Yusufali 3:153] Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back.

Allah (swt) forgave them after Uhud, but gave very strong warnings:

[Yusufali 8:15-16] O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

Yet, the Sahabah fled again at Hunayn!

[Yusufali 9:25] Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.

Even Umar did not mention the death of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) for his "escape" from the battlefield:

Narrated Abu Qatada:

We set out in the company of Allah's Apostle on the day (of the battle) of Hunain. When we faced the enemy, the Muslims retreated and I saw a pagan throwing himself over a Muslim. I turned around and came upon him from behind and hit him on the shoulder with the sword He (i.e. the pagan) came towards me and seized me so violently that I felt as if it were death itself, but death overtook him and he released me. I followed 'Umar bin Al Khattab and asked (him), "What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?" He replied, "This is the Will of Allah,"

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 370

Of course, that was a clear lie upon Allah (swt) by Umar. Allah (swt) was against it. It was not His Will!

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When the top Shia scholars or the books written by them mention their private retreat from the battle of Uhud, they also mention the Quranic verse that forgave them for that particular action. Its rather only a piece of history or a piece of the puzzle of reality which still has its informative value in the whole greater picture.

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I think I mentioned that they ran away, not just at Uhud. Anyway, they did not run away because they thought the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was dead. He was calling them. They heard his voice. So, they were certain that he was alive and in danger.

[Yusufali 3:153] Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back.

Allah (swt) forgave them after Uhud, but gave very strong warnings:

[Yusufali 8:15-16] O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

Yet, the Sahabah fled again at Hunayn!

[Yusufali 9:25] Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.

Even Umar did not mention the death of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) for his "escape" from the battlefield:

The verses above are clear cut proof that Sahabas are not immune and some are definitely going to hell.

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"as everyone sought to save his own skin by taking flight except such men as Ali ibn Abu Talib whom God had guided and protected." (The Life of Muhammad (S), 1935, Cairo)

I think what really matters here is that in the battle of Uhud, many of the companions who are touted to be very brave and faithful to Prophet (S) by our opponents turned their backs upon the holy Prophet, and ran for cover.

But there were a few who did not run and did not consider their skin wortheir than Prophet's life. One of them was Umm Ammarra Ansariyya (rh), a lady from Medina al Munawarah. She was a fearless believer, and all Islam can be justly proud of her courage. She was noted for her skills as a surgeon and a nurse, and came to Uhud with the army of Medina.

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WHO SAID Allah SAWT FORGAVE THEM?????????????????

I was talking about Uhud. It wasn't just 1, 2 and 3 who fled the battlefield but rather the majority of the Muslim army was routed after Khalid bin Waleed's cavalry unit charged them from the rear. Soon after that they got demoralized and ran up the mountain (Uhud) when Abu Sufyan (la) started shouting the lie that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had been martyred. Only a handful of them remained on the field who got martyred or incapcitated, and Imam Ali (as) was left alone defending the Prophet (pbuh).

Now I may have forgotten this but I've read in a Quranic exegesis that a verse was revealed after the battle that Allah forgave that one instance of making a retreat although generally it is a grave sin to retreat from a battle in Jihad and even more if its a ghazwa. So it was merely that time, but 1, 2 and 3 have fled alot more shamefully in other battles. For example, their treachery and retreat from the battle of Hunain, their great fear and refusal to fight Amr bin Abdewud during the battle of Khandaq, Umar's shameful failure as a commander at Khyber, etc.

Again I could be wrong. :) What do you think?

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why do shias have the most hatred against umar ?

he was not 1/10 as bad as shias of today think he was .....if he ran away so did all but 5 sahaba ran away

and one of those who stayed was talha ...so now is talha superior to all but 5 sahaba ?

umar is definately FAR SUPERIOR to talha

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Salaam

In uhud apparently the ones that ran away went to the mountain and some stayed with RasulAllah (saw) and they were named (according to sunni sources i think and Abu Bakr and Umar were included in this) then there was a second group which just stopped fighting and was sitting down and had lost inspiration to fight and then there was a group that tried to seek protection from on of the hypocrites.

I am yet to see a in depth topic on this issue showing either our side or theirs (sunni) which 100% convinces me maybe someone can post a good article where this is discussed.

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why do shias have the most hatred against umar ?

he was not 1/10 as bad as shias of today think he was .....if he ran away so did all but 5 sahaba ran away

and one of those who stayed was talha ...so now is talha superior to all but 5 sahaba ?

umar is definately FAR SUPERIOR to talha

I guess hatred against hazrat umar is more based on the kind of changes he has introduced to the religion, secondly he comes up as the main person behind most of the events e.g. appointment of first caliph and third caliph etc. and attack on the house of hazrat Ali (as) e.g.

My main concern of starting this thread was if they were forgiven shia's should not hold it against them, however it seems like they ran away on more than one occasion so that changes the perspective a bit.

Lastly what upsets sunni's more is really that shia's do an open criticism of events, history and hadiths e.g. and they like these areas to be untouched and not discussed even from a knowledge perspective, one can't raise against an unjust ruler, can't question the authority of the ruler, has to believe blindly whatever hadiths exist in sahih, have to accept prophet pbuh only knew about religion and rest was not his domain and he could make mistakes etc. hence a long list of things which don't make sense yet one can't question.

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umar is definately FAR SUPERIOR to talha

Thats like comparing Bush and Rumsfeld and then claiming that one was a less vicious serpent than the other. Thats why I don't even need to disagree with your statement. Whats there to elevate Umar's status, who is, among other things, nothing less than Solomon Rushdie as a blasphemer? Just like Qabeel shares the sin of each murder done until Judgement day, Umar is similarly responsible for each misguided and mistreated soul that suffers due to his immense treachery.

Or maybe you had nothing better to write in defense of the Sunni darling?

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee
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Thats like comparing Bush and Rumsfeld and then claiming that one was a less vicious serpent than the other. Thats why I don't even need to disagree with your statement. Whats there to elevate Umar's status, who is, among other things, nothing less than Solomon Rushdie as a blasphemer? Just like Qabeel shares the sin of each murder done until Judgement day, Umar is similarly responsible for each misguided and mistreated soul that suffers due to his immense treachery.

Or maybe you had nothing better to write in defense of the Sunni darling?

So Talha's (ra) war contributions are denied by the 12rs ? Are you like the Khawarij who believe a major sin leads to kufr ?

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So Talha's (ra) war contributions are denied by the 12rs ? Are you like the Khawarij who believe a major sin leads to kufr ?

Talha fought against Imam Ali (as), and that means he was fighting against Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh), in accordance with an authentic hadith. By doing so, he himself nullified all his previous efforts in support of Islam.

The analysis is as simple as that.

Abdaal, I respect you a lot because of your "more sensible" stance on Sunni/Shi'a issues, as opposed to other Sunnis. But, I must tell you - I am terribly disappointed that you are supporting Talha.

Is it just part of the Sahabah worship symdrome or what?

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Talha fought against Imam Ali (as), and that means he was fighting against Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh), in accordance with an authentic hadith. By doing so, he himself nullified all his previous efforts in support of Islam.

The analysis is as simple as that.

Abdaal, I respect you a lot because of your "more sensible" stance on Sunni/Shi'a issues, as opposed to other Sunnis. But, I must tell you - I am terribly disappointed that you are supporting Talha.

Is it just part of the Sahabah worship symdrome or what?

Are you 12rs not aware that Imam Ali (as) paid homage to Talha (ra) when he was killed ? Are you not aware that Imam Ali (as) wanted to save Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra) and give them government positions ?

Also your accusation of Sahaba worship is baseless. Maybe you i should accuse you of nisabi support because the person who killed Talha (ra) was a Nisabi. You view of Talha (ra) is parallel to Marwaan's view. Your hatred for sahaba in Madina is parallel to that of Yazid. Do you like the sound of that ?

When it comes to Sahaba you 12rs borrow your Khwarij cousin's theology which states that all major sins lead to Kufr and apply it toward them.

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Going against imam ALi (as) leads to kufr, no one here has said umar is kafr for running away from uhud.

He never fought any wars beside the Prophet either

He fought for 8 years against an invader, this is the ultimate jihad, not that its like fighting next to the prophet (as) but it shows courage.

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Going against imam ALi (as) leads to kufr, no one here has said umar is kafr for running away from uhud.

leads to kufr ? does it equal to kufr. Also, do all the previous good deeds gets wiped out from this act ?

He fought for 8 years against an invader, this is the ultimate jihad, not that its like fighting next to the prophet (as) but it shows courage.

Against an invader ? Although Sadaam was a Shaytaan he did not plan to invade Iran. Next Imam Khoemieni didn't physically fight in the war. He commanded an army as a ruler. This is a difference which 12r shias tell us to differentiate when it comes to defining courage, but ironically they don't seem to apply the rules on themselves.

Edited by Abdaal
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leads to kufr ? does it equal to kufr. Also, do all the previous good deeds gets wiped out from this act ?

Dont play dumb you know well what happens when someone fights against the prophet (as) this is kufr, and when the prophet says if you fight Imam ali (as) it is like fighting against me and unturn you are fighting against Allah (swt).

Against an invader ? Although Sadaam was a Shaytaan he did not plan to invade Iran. Next Imam Khoemieni didn't physically fight in the war. He commanded an army as a ruler. This is a difference which 12r shias tell us to differentiate when it comes to defining courage, but ironically they don't seem to apply the rules on themselves.

Rules to themselve? The shia is what gives the arab world some pride, Hizbollah is a perfect example, you have no idea what you are talking about, imam khoemieni did fight he started to fight the day he was born until his death for the iranian people and in the end he won them their freedom. Now they are launching satelites to space while the arabs lick american ass.

Edited by AlwayS-Dhik'r
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Your reply is based on speculation. As far as Sunni sources go Imam Ali (as) paid homage to Talha (ra). When Talha (ra) died Imam Ali (as) praised him talked about his war contribution.

AA abdaal

If we were to go by sunni sources, we will find Imam Ali (as) also praised Hazrat Abu Bakr and Umar .... ?

wsalam

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