[merged] Ayatollah Khomeini - Good Or Bad?

[Maula Dha Mallang]

in the name of Allah, the beneficient, the merciful.

lanat on the enemies of the ahlebeyt.

firstly, no im not a fitnah monger. im not a zionist spy. im not disrespecting and scholar and im not making a meaningless thread.

this is a serious, critical discussion i want.

the basis of this thread was this:

political thought and legacy of ayatollah khomeini:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_tho...acy_of_Khomeini

are the following points true or not:

(1) ayatollah khomeini was about to get executed in jail

(2) ayatollah shariatmadari (Allah bless his soul) went around and got loads of marjas signatures to make ayatollah khomeini a mujtahid cos mujtahids cant be put to death

(3) the revolution happened, many scholars were instrumental in rallying support and spreading the word, but only ayatollah khomeini was recognised as the key player.

(4) the pasdars were a bunch of goddamned gestapo harami zalims, torturing and killing people like crazy

(5) ayatollah khomeini pushed this wilayat faqih muqtala thing, loads of scholars disagreed with him

(6) one of the rights of the WF is to change the furu e deen astagfirullah. case in point - ayatollah khomeini stopped people going to hajj for a year, as though he has any right to do that.

The government which is a branch of the absolute governance of the Prophet of God is among the primary ordinances of Islam, and has precedence over all secondary ordinances such as prayer, fasting, and pilgrimage.

[p.135-6] [source: Hamid Algar, `Development of the Concept of velayat-i faqih since the Islamic Revolution in Iran,` paper presented at London Conference on wilayat al-faqih, in June, 1988]

(7) marjas disagreed with this view. marjas included ayatollah shaheed shariatmadari, ayatollah shirazi, ayatollah montazeri and ayatollah rastegrari.

(8) ayatollah shariatmadari was STRIPPED of his marja status, and tortured to death for opposing the WF. the man who saved ayatollah khomeinis life. from what ive heard, death must have been a sweet relief for him after what he endured at the hands of the pro WF police. may Allah rest his soul.

(9) when ayatollah khamenei was sworn in (or whatever its called) he said something along the lines of the jurist doesnt have complete authority, and was critisised by ayatollah khomeini and apologised for it

(10) why did ayatollah khomeini first say that the most knowledgeable man had to be WF, and then retract that statement later?

if these 10 points are indeed true, then im sorry to say this, im heartbroken to say this, but the image we have of ayatollah khomeini is a lie. he is NOT the noble leader we all were taught.

Edited February 9, 2009 by maula dha mallang

[Nocturne]

I think these points have come up previously one way or the other in different topics on SC... I've a feeling this topic is going boooooooooooooooooooooooom. You should have searched I think.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Nocturne

[Maula Dha Mallang]

bro maybe it has, but ive never known much about the revolution, i was born in '83. i thought id put all the separate threads in one place u get me?

[Anjaam]

His return [ma'ad] is to Allah, from Allah, in Allah and by Allah. In the Qur'an He says: "Surely to Us is their return." [435] Other creatures return to Allah through Man, or rather their return is to Man, as it is stated in the Jami`ah invocation, in which some aspects of the states of guardianship are explained. It says: "The return of the creatures is to you and their reckoning is upon you." It also says: "With you Allah opened and with you He closes," [436] and also in the noble ayah" "Surely to Us is their return, and surely upon Us is their reckoning." [437] In the said invocation: "The return of the creatures is to you and their reckoning is upon you", is one of tauhid's secrets, referring to the fact that to return to the Perfect Man is to return to Allah, as the Perfect Man

I-ness and selfishness of his own, rather he is of the Beautiful Names and the Greatest Name, to which the Qur'an and the hadiths frequently refer.

As the "ba" is the appearance of tauhid, and the dot [484] under it is its secret, the, whole Book, its overt and covert, is in that "ba"'. And the perfect man, that is, the blessed person of 'Ali , is the very dot of the secret of tauhid. [485] There is no ayah in the world greater than that blessed person after the Seal of the Messengers (SA), as is stated in the noble hadith. [486]

http://www.al-islam.org/adab/

A Brief Exegesis of the Blessed Surah of al-Hamd and Some Disciplines of Praising and Recitation

by Khomeini

This is excerpts from Ayatollah Khomeinis book Abadus Salat, (the chapter I listed above) as we can clearly see here this man had ghullat beliefs, he clearly believes Imam Ali (as) to be Allah. As his beliefs seem to be thus, then how can we consider him to be a man without sin? Khomeini comments at length on a number of Quranic verses and ahadith to prove his point for the wilayah al-faqih system, like the ayah,

'Obey Allah, obey the Prophet and the rulers from among you.'

Imam Ali (a.s) as, “The only obedience incumbent upon people is to the laws of God and the commandments of the Prophet of God. As for obedience to the Holders of Authority, this has been made incumbent because they are immune from sin, and in the very nature of things they can not issue any order that violates or runs counter to God’s Commands.”

Biharul Anwar, Vol. 25, p. 200

This ayah cannot be used as any proof them for Khomeini's so-called Islamic government!

Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari asked the Prophet (s) about the Holders of Authority whose obedience was made obligatory on the Ummah, and the Prophet (s) replied, “O Jabir, the first of them is Ali ibn Abi Talib, followed by his two sons Hasan and Husain, and then by Ali ibnul Husain, followed by Muhammad al-Baqir whom you, O Jabir, will live to see. When you meet him, convey my salutations to him. He will be followed by Ja’far as-Sadiq, Musa al-Kadhim, Ali ar-Ridha, Muhammad al-Jawad, Ali al-Hadi, al-Hasan al-Askari, and finally the Hidden One; the Promised Mehdi. These will be the leaders after me."

(Ibid., p. 123.)

yet Khomeini must think his name is included in this ayah. According to what Khomeini himself drew up as rules of this system:

If a faqih violates the rules of the Shari'ah, he will automatically stand dismissed from the office of the wiláyah, due to the lack of 'justice' in him. The supreme ruler, in fact, is the law and all enjoy its protection.

how this ayah and this rule of law he himself drew up apply to khomeini? he shared beliefs with nusayris! clearly this system is the system of shaytan as there are two kinds of Imams, according to the words of the holy Quran, one who calls to all truth and one who calls to the fire, how can khomeini be one who calls to the truth when he himself was blind to it? This is what I cant understand! can anyone shed some light on the matter?

[Maula Dha Mallang]

heres an example from other, older threads:

"Shariatmadari had long represented a major problem for Khomeini's inner circle, for he did not support the concept of a Supreme Jurisprudent. The Islamic Republic could not tolerate opposition from one of its greatest authorities. An enlightened mullah, Shariatmadari advocated greater individual freedoms and a lower profile for the clergy. He had earlier criticized the new constitution and condemned the revolutions judicial excess.

...In the angry atmosphere that countenanced no opposition, the government’s response to the Qotbzadeh plot was again emphatic. Hundreds of military officers were arrested. Forced to confess on nationwide television, Qotbzadeh was put on trial, where he admitted plotting to eliminate key government clerics, but denied planning to kill the imam. On September 15, 1982, he was executed by a firing squad, as were seventy officers. In a move unprecedented in Shi’ite religious history, shariatmadari was stripped of his title as grand ayatollah and placed under house arrest. It was the most sweeping indication to date of just how far the radical clergy was prepared to go to silence dissent, even among its own rank….”

"In the Name of Allah"

by Robin Wright

and this

As Fateme Pakravan wife of Pakravan, chief of Savak says in her memoirs that her husband saved Ayatollah Khomeini’s life in 1963. Pakravan felt that his execution would anger the common people of Iran. He presented his argument to the shah. Once he had convinced the shah to allow him to find a way out, he called on Ayatollah Mohammad-Kazem Shariatmadari, one of the senior religious leaders of Iran, and asked for his help. Ayatollah Shariatmadari suggested that Khomeini be declared an Marja. So, other Marjas made a religious decree which was taken by Pakravan and Seyyed Jalal Tehrani to the Shah

Memoirs of Fatemeh Pakravan

[Their slave]

Salam Alykom

(7) marjas disagreed with this view. marjas included ayatollah shaheed shariatmadari, ayatollah shirazi, ayatollah montazeri and ayatollah rastegrari.

(8) ayatollah shariatmadari was STRIPPED of his marja status, and tortured to death for opposing the WF. the man who saved ayatollah khomeinis life. from what ive heard, death must have been a sweet relief for him after what he endured at the hands of the pro WF police. may Allah rest his soul.

This two are very true, I have heard that from a scholar's mouth (otherthan sayed Mujtaba and Yaser Alhabeeb)

It is my first time to hear about some of the points.

[Iqra]

Shariatmadari was NOT tortured to death. He died under house arrest. Besides, it's well documented in Iran how he betrayed the Iranian Revolution through his activities and involvement with certain plans to kill Imam Khomeini.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Iqra

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Shariatmadari was NOT tortured to death. He died under house arrest. Besides, it's well documented in Iran how he betrayed the Iranian Revolution through his activities and involvement with certain bombings.

was he denied basic antibiotics for his bladder infection which posioned him?

also, another marja who did not agree with the wilayat e faqih was ayatollah shirazi right? what happened at his funeral

pics of his body being snatched before the funeral

heres what was said in the book "Human Rights in Iran The Abuse of Cultural Relativism" by Reza Afshari:

human rights in iran

scroll down to page 225

the nonpolitical clerics and those who entertained views other than khomeinis were targets of verbal and physical attacks from the early days of the islamic republic. after khomeinis death, the dissident clerics spoke their minds more openly and suffered prosecutions and harrassments. as discussed earlier, the central institution of the islamic republic could claim legitimacy among its supporters when a grand ayatollah, who had already been recognised as a marja e taqleed (the source of emulation) was willing to assume the position of the faqih (the islamic jurist) in velayat e faqih. already during khomeinis rule a number of prominent clerics had expressed theoretical and practical reservations about the clerics exercising executive power. early in the islamic republic at least four grand ayatollahs experienced hardships as the result of their pooposition of velayat e faqih. the most senior amongst them was the Grand ayatollah Shari'atmadari. in a move that could have shocked the previous generations of the shiite ulema, khomeini stripped him of this position as a marja e taqleed in 1982. shiite tradition had never granted such a power to anyone.

After khomeninis death, it had become apparant that some ayatollahs were unwilling to accept the middle ranked ali khamenei (the successor to ayatollah khomeini) as a seniour religious figure to be qualified as a marja e taqleed. for him to claim being the faqih appeared simply incredible. an increasing number of shiite ulema, particularly the most seniour ones (marja e taqleed) discreetly began to challenge the religious legitimacy of the concept of velayat e faqih. politisised shiism created havoc in the shiite establishment, and the religious state threw the religion into confusion.

[Iqra]

was he denied basic antibiotics for his bladder infection which posioned him?

I'm not his doctor, I wasn't even born when he died - so it's impossible for me to speculate as to how he died. However, he was most certainly NOT tortured to death.

also, another marja who did not agree with the wilayat e faqih was ayatollah shirazi right? what happened at his funeral

pics of his body being snatched before the funeral

I think this has more to do with preventing a replication of the funeral procession of Imam Khomeini than any sinister plot by the government to steal his body and do voodoo on it or something.

heres what was said in the book "Human Rights in Iran The Abuse of Cultural Relativism" by Reza Afshari:

human rights in iran

scroll down to page 225

Sorry, but I find Western writings and hypocracy about human rights in Iran to be both pointless to read and nothing more than sensationalist rubbish to keep middle-classed 'intellectuals' feeling good about themselves. People have built entire careers shaming other cultures and pressuring their governments into conforming to Western standards. I'd rather stick to sources that I consider quintissentially national - rather than sources whose aim is to build a career on undermine other nations by exploiting hear-say and exile propaganda.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Iqra

[Maula Dha Mallang]

ok bro iqra since you seem to be the only person on this thread with manners what do you think of the following source (ill try and stick to "official" kind of ones from now on):

its interesting to see what ayatollah muhammed shirazi said in his book "if islam were to be established in iraq".

you can read the book here - go to chapter 9, posession of real power

it sounds like a veiled attack against WF, since he stands for the complete opposite of a single WF, have a look and see what you think:

Possession of Real Power

It is imperative that a multi-party, consultative regime must enjoy an adequate level of deterrent power. This is important since the existence of power would deter and apprehend the enemies especially those who consider the establishment of a consultative system a danger to them. The benefit of such power would foil their attempts to topple the young system of government. Furthermore, the presence of an adequate power would stabilise the security (of the state) and give confidence to people. Hence, a regime that does not possess an adequate deterrent force will not be able to establish itself and, if it did manage to do so, it would not be able to survive. The provision of power is that there be fundamental constituents of proper organisation and discipline as well as political, military and economic power; and strong management procedure to enable the young regime to survive the onslaught of enemies and opportunists.

...

Power may be classified into two categories:

1. Power of the Despots,

2. Power of the Consultative.

There is a vast contrast between the two. The consultative power is a power of tranquillity, which is likely to survive. It does not turn into a means of destroying the nation and consuming its resources. The despotic power, on the other hand, lives on for a limited period during which it is stained by vices, murders, persecution and terrorism. Everyone observed the destruction of the likes of the communist Soviet Union, Eastern Germany, Enver Hoxha of Albania, Ceausescu of Romania, and Kim Il Sung and other similar despots. Despotism drove those countries to breakdown, which destroyed the infrastructures of those countries and annihilated their resources.

Therefore it is imperative that those in the Islamic movement gain an honest and righteous power of the consultative kind, which is based on freedom, free elections, and system of multi-party pluralism.

hmm i wonder where ayatollah shirazi would say "WF" comes under, if he says there are only 2 forms of power, of which WF is not consultative.

Edited February 9, 2009 by maula dha mallang

[Maula Dha Mallang]

further evidence of ayatollah shirazis stance AGAINST wilayat faqih is in the book by Muhammad G. Ayub - Aspects of the Political Theory of Imam Muhammad Shirazi.

aspects of the political theory of imam muhammed shirazi, go to the conclusion page 59

he mentions in his conclusion the following:

The Final Picture

Later, Shirazi details the final picture of the conditions likely to be the consequence of the election process. It is clarified as follows:

1. That the people choose a qualified religious authority (Faqih) “to be the one who takes charge of all matters. This is called “Wilayat Faqih” (the leadership of the religious authority).

2. Alternatively, the people choose a number of religious authorities (Faqih's) to be the collective head of the state on the basis of Council of Religious Authority. In the case of Council of Religious Authority, a new solution emerges; the situation is bound to be one

of the two:

I. Either the elected Faqihs select one of them as the leader, while the rest form the consultative body advising him, thus becoming “advisors”,

II. Or the concept of “collective leadership” is put into effect, whereby the affairs of the state and leadership are executed (by the whole body of elected jurists) 131 In accordance with the above, “...The head of the Islamic state is the Faqih (jurist) who meets the set criteria, be it an individual or a collective body, according to the community's will and choice”.

It is quite clear that if the Community will choose more than one Faqih who fulfil the conditions of leadership, which results in a governing and ruling body, the nation will then have opted for the “council of religious authorities” as a practical form of Islamic rule.

This leads to a serious result, namely that “council of religious authorities” as a method of rule, is subject to the community's approval. In this way Shirazi reaches the top of being honest to one's self on the intellectual and ideological level... For, although he finds in “council of religious authorities” the most exemplary, accurate, remarkable and capable form of state administration, he insists that such form should never be imposed on the nation by force, ambiguity, or any other method of imposition. It should be the outcome of total public elections, whereby the election process plays a positive and effective role. We thus fall back on the first principle established by Ayatollah Shirazi, i.e., the need to appoint a ruler, whether a single individual or a collective body, through elections

correct me if im wrong (i know you will), but was ayatollah khamenei chosen by free and fair election or pushed through by ayatollah khomeini?

[Maula Dha Mallang]

heres an interesting article bro Iqra, love to see what u think of this:

THE IRANIAN: khomeini before and after the revolution

there are quite a few quotes (all referenced), but for an example take a look at the following:

Before the victory of the revolution (February 11, 1979)

"Personal desire, age, and my health do not allow me to personally have a role in running the country after the fall of the current system."

Interview with the Associated Press, Paris, November 7, 1978

"I don't want to be the leader of the Islamic Republic; I don't want to have the government or the power in my hands. I only guide the people in selecting the system."

Interview with an Austrian TV reporter, Paris, November 16, 1978

"After the Shah's departure from Iran, I will not become a president nor accept any other leadership role. Just like before, I limit my activities only to guiding and directing the people." Interview with Le Monde newspaper, Paris, January 9, 1979

"In the Islamic government all people have complete freedom to have any kind of opinion." Interview with Human Rights Watch, Paris, November 10, 1978

(yeah...like people who were anti WF right :Hijabi:)

"These words that you have heard regarding women in the future Islamic government are all hostile propaganda. In the Islamic Republic women have complete freedom, in their education, in everything that they do, just as men are free in everything."

Interview with German reporters, Paris, November 12, 1978

After the revolution

"This nation exists and clerics exist too. You all must know that in every place in this country only clerics can get the job done. Don't show so much prejudice that you want to put the clerics aside. What have you done for your country in all these years that now you're saying clerics should not be in charge? Appreciate these clerics. You do not understand correctly! If you put this group aside, no name or sign of Islam will remain. Imagine one cleric has done something wrong somewhere. Why can you do something wrong and some cleric cannot do anything wrong?"

In a meeting with the Islamic Parliament, Jamaran (2), Tehran, May 27, 1981

"Those who have not voted for the Islamic Republic, it means that they want the previous system. Those who boycott the election so no one votes for the Islamic Republic are seditious. We will treat them like enemies, and we will oppress them. You are enemies that you want to cause trouble. You are enemies that you are conspiring against Islam and against the country. Your comings and goings are controlled. We have been informed that you are in contact with those who want to bring our country back to its previous system. Now that your conspiracy has been proven, we will destroy you all. If you don't stop your evilness, we will mobilize an even higher mobilization, and we will clean out all of you. We will not allow you groups of corrupt people to remain and continue your activities.

In a message at the end of the month-long Islamic fasting celebration, September 3, 1979

"You are now under the protection of God and the Imam Zaman. They protect you personally; a letter listing all your activities is being sent to Imam Zaman on a regular basis."

In a meeting with the Islamic Revolutionary Guards, January 24, 1982

"Someone who has recently returned from the front lines ... told me that Saddam's army was shooting its most modern missiles toward Khark, but as if a hand were throwing these missiles in the water or in the desert, the missiles were brought down to the desert ground, and even when a missile would hit a gas tank, it would come out from the other side with no explosion, and this is the time that humans realize and touch the existence of the merciful and blessed Lord of Time."

Ali Akbar Nategh Nouri, who later became Minister of Interior, Speaker of parliament and presidential candidate, during Friday prayer, November 5, 1982

[BintAlHoda]

This topic has been moved to prevent more off topic replies.

As a general rule, if you find the topic pointless, don't write in it.

Members have the right to ask questions and seek answers. Questioning the content of a Wikipedia article seems more than legitimate.

Please confine posts to the topic. Ayatollah Shirazi did not pass away until after Imam Khomeini. Therefore, that is not on topic as defined in the original post.

I had also heard #2 is true by others as well as the sufi poetry that had me thinking this is fishy.

Neither "I've heard" nor Sufi poetry prove anything.

We are talking about a very serious personality so we should avoid speculation.

[shabib_jaisi]

^^^^

If this some kind of serious discussion... then serious questions should be backed by ample proofs from books of senior scholars..

Also, quoting wife of SAVAK chief to prove that Imam Khomeini was made a Marja while he was about to be hanged is a pathetic source to raise questions about the Knowledge and Status of a Marja..

Would all other senior Ulema from Qum/Mashad and Tehran would have accepted and given the Imam Khomeini the Marjaiyat.. just for the sake of saving his life ??.. Is Marjaiyat such a cheap institution that it is granted on basis on political expediency or social situation of the state ?

Its not an allegation on Imam Khomeini but per say an allegation on the whole system of Hawza.. And its clearly an attempt to malign and debase one of our best institutions.. And the kind of proofs used are statements of ex SAVAK chief's wife.. Does not Moderators and others find it condemnable ??

Person who raises such serious questions have the burden of providing serious proofs..

[Note from Moderator: original poster has already given his source and asked us to prove or disprove it - BintAlHoda]

Also on definition of Wali Faqih by Imam Shirazi .. i would respectfully differ with him.. and infact most of our Maraje and senior Ulema differ with him.. He says people have a right to chose Wali e Faqih.. Well Wali e Faqih is a role responsible for executing Divine Law on the land.. How can common people appoint any such person.. Only those who are aware of the responsibility and are knowlegable in terms of Divine Laws and knows who is the best person to execute it should have the right to appoint such a person.

[shabib_jaisi]

^^^

If we are going to accept comments of an ex SAVAK chief as a proof in accusations against a Marja.. then i pity the state of Moderatorship here..

There were 100's of Mujtahid in Iran at that time... 10's of Marjas...

When the OP claims in Point (2) that Marja's and Mujtahid's were forced into giving signature.. then the proofs worth considering are statements of those Marja's or Mujtahid's who were forced into signature rather than an ex SAVAK chief's wife ??.. Does the OP has any statement from the Marjas and Mujtahids of that time to substantiate his claims ??

Those who claim such fabrications that Marja's and Mujtahids were forced to give signatures making Imam Khomeini a Mujtahid.. aren't theyr debasing our dearest institution of the Hawza..

Isn't it a ploy to weaken peoples belief and their going back towards to the system of Hawza and Marjaiyat ??

[Armans Wife]

You come here with your slandering claims and immidiately act like some kind of innocent bystander, saying you just saw these claims and would like an answer. To the question to provide proof you point us to the edit warzone called wikipedia. Well I went there and can not make heads or tails out of it. None of what you said comes directly back in the text on wikipedia and a look at the references used on the page shows a whole list of books written by westerners about the Islamic Revolution and Imam Khomeini (ra), articles by traitors, shaholahi's, bahai's, and even books and articles by panarabs.

Please write all these points again, after each point provide the proof.

[Jubei]

I'm not his doctor, I wasn't even born when he died - so it's impossible for me to speculate as to how he died. However, he was most certainly NOT tortured to death.

He was denied medication. He was only tortured to death in the say way Palestinians in Gaze are being tortured to death. Granted it is a point of view, but a hard one to deny.

I don't find most of this surprising. He did what I would have done in order to start a revolution. The basic way to go about one (and how all successful revolutions in history have been done), is not only to eliminate the opposition, but to silence the dissident "moderate" voices, because they are a political and psychological threat to establishing a new order. This was done quite systematically, and a number of new laws were created to do just this (including the death to apostates one).

If this task was not accomplished, then the revolution would have inevitably failed. Not only that but he immediately created an Assembly of experts, that were all supporters (any opposition, even moderate ones like shariatmadari were locked away), who not only created the post of the supreme leader, but wrote the constitution to make it so, including the laws that legalized the imprisonment and death of all those who opposed the specific goal of the revolution.

8) ayatollah shariatmadari was STRIPPED of his marja status,

Is there a reliable reference for this?

[Maula Dha Mallang]

what i have posted so far is by no means the limit of my sources, think of them more of a starting point for discussion.

sis bintalhoda, i wasnt trying to go offtopic with the articles about ayatollah shirazi, im trying to gather their own translated books on scribd and google books as primary sources and show their own views of the WF from their own pens, focusing on the 4 main ulema ayatollahs shariatmadari, ayatollah shirazi, ayatollah montazeri and ayatollah rastegrari.

after this i was hoping to put a link between their stance on WF and their suffering and punishments. this is all therefore part of point (7):

(7) marjas disagreed with this view. marjas included ayatollah shaheed shariatmadari, ayatollah shirazi, ayatollah montazeri and ayatollah rastegrari.

i have divided the argument into 10 points so am trying to gather the evidence as i find them, attempting (as rubbish as i am at this) to fill each point with evidence. at the moment i am reading through ayatollah montazeris stuff so hopefully that will be posted next in relation to point (7).

i am not having a go at the hawza system or qom. what a retarded idea. if anything this shows how caring and humane the ulema are, and how much they tried to help those in need, and how much they achieved in the face of adversity. ayatollah khomeinis actions, if anything, are the polar OPPOSITE of the rest of the ulemas. yeah. i said it.

[The Persian Shah]

Could you please quote the claims exactly from the article please ?

(1) ayatollah khomeini was about to get executed in jail

Probably..

(2) ayatollah shariatmadari (Allah bless his soul) went around and got loads of marjas signatures to make ayatollah khomeini a mujtahid cos mujtahids cant be put to death

Khomeini was already a mujtahid at that time. Fyi, Shariatmadari opposed Khomeini from the start.

(3) the revolution happened, many scholars were instrumental in rallying support and spreading the word, but only ayatollah khomeini was recognised as the key player.

Both statements are true.

(4) the pasdars were a bunch of goddamned gestapo harami zalims, torturing and killing people like crazy

Pasdars ?

(5) ayatollah khomeini pushed this wilayat faqih muqtala thing, loads of scholars disagreed with him

A fiqhi issue. So ?

(6) one of the rights of the WF is to change the furu e deen astagfirullah. case in point - ayatollah khomeini stopped people going to hajj for a year, as though he has any right to do that.

There is no difference between a WF's relation to ahkam, and any other mujtahid. If Khomeini tells you not to go to Hajj because you are probably gonna get killed, it is the same as Sistani telling you not go to hajj if you are probably gonna get killed..

(8) ayatollah shariatmadari was STRIPPED of his marja status, and tortured to death for opposing the WF. the man who saved ayatollah khomeinis life. from what ive heard, death must have been a sweet relief for him after what he endured at the hands of the pro WF police. may Allah rest his soul.

:!!!: (Sorry, I couldn't help but not laugh at that one)..

Shariatmadari "saved" Khomeini's life ? He was involved in the assasination attempt and Khomeini did not strip him of his religious rank. All the teachers of the Hawza agreed upon this.

Watch the confession online here for yourself:

(9) when ayatollah khamenei was sworn in (or whatever its called) he said something along the lines of the jurist doesnt have complete authority, and was critisised by ayatollah khomeini and apologised for it

Source ?

(10) why did ayatollah khomeini first say that the most knowledgeable man had to be WF, and then retract that statement later?

Source ? As far as I know, he only lowered the standard one noch from Marja to mujtahid.

if these 10 points are indeed true, then im sorry to say this, im heartbroken to say this, but the image we have of ayatollah khomeini is a lie. he is NOT the noble leader we all were taught.

I doubt you really are. You have always disliked Khomeini and the IRI. Your posts in this thread are no different, mere attempt to try and degrade him..

hmm i wonder where ayatollah shirazi would say "WF" comes under, if he says there are only 2 forms of power, of which WF is not consultative.

Do you know anything about WF ?

correct me if im wrong (i know you will), but was ayatollah khamenei chosen by free and fair election or pushed through by ayatollah khomeini?

To answer my above comment: Clearly not..

MDM, I suggest you watch the Ruhollah Series. All of it. Come back after that if you have any questions..

[Note from Moderator: original poster has already given his source and asked us to prove or disprove it - BintAlHoda]

Poor moderation. The OP has not provided any sources for his claims at all. Only a link to a wiki article, but I'm curious as to where exactly those accusations appear therein..

[The Persian Shah]

What's even more amusing in your attack against Khomeini/IRI, is your tendency towards Shirazi. His credentials were disproved by his own teacher and head of the Hawza, Sayyed Khu`i [proof: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...5469&st=125]..

[Maula Dha Mallang]

ive been reading up on ayatollah montazeri...fascinating guy.

i first read about him in this book:

Crime Against Humanity: List of 3,208 Victims of Massacre Indict Iran's Ruling Mullahs for Massacre of 30,000 Political Prisoners, by the "National Council of Resistance of Iran Foreign Affairs Committee"

ok, so the same is kinda dodgy. no points for guessing if they are pro iranian or anti iranian lol. so i looked up their official website, n cudnt seem to find one. so im not gonna focus on this, other than to draw your attention to pages 19 - 39, which deal soley with the book "“The Memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri". cant seem to find an online version of the book so im relying on the above book for my quotations.

the first is this, taken from page 24 of the book. its apparantely in ayatollah montazeris own handwriting to ayatollah khomeini complaining about the mass killings.

there are many letters that were passed to ayatollah khomeini, but id like in particular to show you guys this one:

Systematic Use of Torture

Doc. No. 142

Letter to Imam Khomeini, dated October 8, 1986

Do you know that crimes are being committed in the prisons of the Islamic Republic in the name of Islam the like of which was never seen in the Shah’s evil regime? Do you know that a large number of prisoners have been killed under torture by their interrogators? Do you know that in Mashad prison, some 25 girls had to have their ovaries or uterus removed as a result of what had been done to them, and because there were no physicians and medical care?

Do you know that in Shiraz prison, a girl who was fasting in the month of Ramadan was executed on petty charges immediately after breaking her fast?

Do you know that in some prisons of the Islamic Republic young 33 girls are being raped by force?

Do you know that interrogators foulmouth the girls and us disgusting words to insult them while interrogating them? Do you know that as a result of unruly torture, many prisoners have become deaf or paralyzed or afflicted with chronic diseases? And there is no one to listen to their complaints?

Do you know that in some prisons, prisoners have even been banned from performing their Muslim rites? Do you know that in some prisons prisoners are not allowed to see daylight, not for one or two days, but for months on end? Do you know that even once a prisoner is tried and receives a sentence, he is beaten and abused? No doubt Your Eminence would be told that these are lies and Montazeri is naive.

But let me also report to Your Eminence, if you permit me, what is happening outside prisons: Do you know that people, while traveling in buses and taxis and waiting in queues for chickens, eggs, vegetable oil and beef or waiting in queues at petrol stations, are openly cursing the officials of the Islamic Republic, including, I regret to say, yourself? Do you know that the (Shiite) clergy and clergymen are reviled by the people?

Do you know that even those who come to Friday prayers are mostly disenchanted and curse the authorities? Do you know that bribery is rampant everywhere in government offices, ministries, and unfortunately in some prosecutors’ offices and courts?

Do you know that huge embezzlements of government funds are hushed up with some bribes, a telephone call, or a recommendation, while petty thieves are prosecuted? Do you know that there have been so many robberies and thefts and plundering by persons in the uniforms of Revolutionary Guards and Komiteh agents that people feel no security for their lives and properties?

Do you know that more than two million Iranians are living in exile and many women have resorted to prostitution and discredited Iran and Iranians in the eyes of foreigners? Do you know that poverty and high costs of living are putting intolerable pressures on the people? While the average income and salaries are the same as they were before, prices have jumped ten to twenty times higher. How can the poor live in such conditions? Do you know that contrary to what we studied in Islamic jurisprudence, in the Islamic Republic a Muslim’s right to life is not respected, nor is his property...

Do you know that most good judges have become disillusioned and have resigned, leaving behind corrupt or weak individuals as judges?

Do you know that... everyday about a million Iranians go to doctors and pharmacies and hospitals and clinics, but the vast majority of them return unsatisfied and disenchanted? This is not because of the war, but because of mismanagement and lack of planning...

Do you know that drug addiction is rampant in this country, and that executions, prisons, island concentration camps, etc., are no longer effective?...

In conclusion, it is my view that the country is on a downward spiral and the majority of the people are disenchanted...

For eight years, we have been ruling the country through violence, numerous executions, and inappropriate confiscation, and we have not got anywhere.

and finally. if you wanna hear it directly from ayatollah montazeris mouth, then watch this video

[A follower]

(1) ayatollah khomeini was about to get executed in jail

(bismillah)

(salam)

The Shah regime did want to execute him that is well known.

(2) ayatollah shariatmadari (Allah bless his soul) went around and got loads of marjas signatures to make ayatollah khomeini a mujtahid cos mujtahids cant be put to death

Imam Khomeini [r] was already on the level of marjiyyat/ijtehad as to speak but never declared it due to his respect for his teachers. The same you will find with almost all the marjas, Ayatollah Sistani did not declare it until after the death of his teacher Ayatollah Khoei but it was well known from before that he was on the level of ijtehad.

(3) the revolution happened, many scholars were instrumental in rallying support and spreading the word, but only ayatollah khomeini was recognised as the key player.

Really? Bro look up the role of Shaheed Mutahhari, Shaheed Beshesti, Mostafa Chamaran and many others. And it is true he was seen as the man driving the force of the revolution because he initiated the move himself if you see his speech on 15th Kordad.

(4) the pasdars were a bunch of goddamned gestapo harami zalims, torturing and killing people like crazy

Ermm ok please do elaborate on this. . .

(5) ayatollah khomeini pushed this wilayat faqih muqtala thing, loads of scholars disagreed with him

Imam Khomeini [r] wrote about the aspect of Wilayatul Faqee well before his 15th Kordad speech. He talked about this in his very first book where he took a political stance against the Shah. Even then lets look into history Allama Naraqi talked about this and some Scholars did not agree at his time so what? This is the aspect of Fiqh, do you not see the differences in the ijtehad today? If so then this is same as that.

(6) one of the rights of the WF is to change the furu e deen astagfirullah. case in point - ayatollah khomeini stopped people going to hajj for a year, as though he has any right to do that.

The concept is known as Maslaha to which all Scholars agree that the Faqih has the authority to overturn the Sharia for the benefit of the individual when there is great harm if you do otherwise. Imam Khomeini revive the ideas of Allama Naraki in stating that the Faqih who is the head of the state has the power to overturn the Sharia for the benefit of the State. Imam Khomeini [r] issued the ruling in regards to the Hajj that year was because the year prior to that 400 Hajjis were killed hence Imam Khomeini [r] concluded that it was not wajib for them to go for Hajj as their lives were at risk. Also note when something is deemed not wajib does not mean it is prohibited.

(7) marjas disagreed with this view. marjas included ayatollah shaheed shariatmadari, ayatollah shirazi, ayatollah montazeri and ayatollah rastegrari.

Actually no, these people did not disagree with this view. Ayatollah Montazeri actually supports Wilayatul Faqee al Mutlaqa, he has an 8 volume work on it proving it so for the person who said that Imam Khomeini [r] went to great extend to prove something then please do share your feelings about the work of Ayatollah Montazeri and also about the work of Allama Naraqi.

The rest of the names you have stated have been answered about. Also may I add read the letter of Imam Khomeini [r] to Ayatollah Montazeri.

(8) ayatollah shariatmadari was STRIPPED of his marja status, and tortured to death for opposing the WF. the man who saved ayatollah khomeinis life. from what ive heard, death must have been a sweet relief for him after what he endured at the hands of the pro WF police. may Allah rest his soul.

He did not save his life. As stated before Imam Khomeini [r] was already on that level.

(9) when ayatollah khamenei was sworn in (or whatever its called) he said something along the lines of the jurist doesnt have complete authority, and was critisised by ayatollah khomeini and apologised for it

I have not actually heard about the apologising part but yes Imam Khomeini [r] did write to him clarifying how his statement is against the doctrine of Wilayatul Faqee al mutlaqa.

(10) why did ayatollah khomeini first say that the most knowledgeable man had to be WF, and then retract that statement later?

No, the constitution included that a marja can only hold the position of Wilayatul Faqee. Imam Khomeini [r] before his death called for a change so that a mujtahid can hold the office of Wilayatul Faqee too. This is because the role of Wilayatul Faqee is not exclusive to a marja it can be carried out by a mujtahid too. I stated this in your other thread some time back.

A Follower

WSalaams

Edited February 10, 2009 by A follower

[ShiaSoldier@2007]

I dont know if this justifies sending people to jail and what not.. but here..

this is letter 31 from Najhul balagha

" If your kindness is going to bring forth cruel results, then severity of strictness is the real kindness. Often medicating results in disease; sometimes diseases prove to be health preservers.

[zuhair_naqvi]

I would have had negative comments on his personality but his book adabusalat prevents me.

As for WF, I find it most appropriate to quote Sir Muhammad Iqbal:

Jalaal-e-badshahi ho ki jamhuri tamasha ho

Juda ho deen siyasat se to rehjati hai changezi

[Hassan kachal]

^ good book was it?

[Cyan_Garamond]

What's even more amusing in your attack against Khomeini/IRI, is your tendency towards Shirazi. His credentials were disproved by his own teacher and head of the Hawza, Sayyed Khu`i [proof: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...5469&st=125]..

Sayyid Mohammad Shirazi (ra) was a Karabalai alim. Sayyid Khoei (ra) was Najafi. What the later said was basically that he knew nothing regarding the former's ijtehad because he attended a different seminary. He did not 'disprove' Shirazi's creditials and he was never his teacher so be careful with your information and posts.

[IzZaT]

I would have had negative comments on his personality but his book adabusalat prevents me.

As for WF, I find it most appropriate to quote Sir Muhammad Iqbal:

Jalaal-e-badshahi ho ki jamhuri tamasha ho

Juda ho deen siyasat se to rehjati hai changezi

Bro i'd appreciate it if you could please translate the quote it into English, as its an English based forum.

[zainab_]

I would have had negative comments on his personality but his book adabusalat prevents me.

As for WF, I find it most appropriate to quote Sir Muhammad Iqbal:

Jalaal-e-badshahi ho ki jamhuri tamasha ho

Juda ho deen siyasat se to rehjati hai changezi

to be honest your core beliefs can be correct, but it is obvious one can still go astray, I think it was all the sufism that he was into that started it. as we know sufism was strongly condemned by the Aimmah (as)

its so funny people on this forum worship the ground Khomeini walked on yet still call us ghuluww! ha ha ha

Though I have to say in the above quote concerning his belefs He does not believe that Amirul Momineen (as) was Allah but he definately believed that Imam (as) is not only our Creator but also our judge on the Day of Judgement, I dare anyone to call me you or any of us here ghulaat again!

Moula Madad

[AbuHope]

I dont know if this justifies sending people to jail and what not.. but here..

this is letter 31 from Najhul balagha

" If your kindness is going to bring forth cruel results, then severity of strictness is the real kindness. Often medicating results in disease; sometimes diseases prove to be health preservers''.

That's exactly what I wanted to post here..

People are forgetting what huge political changes were going on in that time in Iraq, Israel and America.. I'm sure Khomeiny rahimullah did things that had to be done in order to secure an Islamic country from outsiders and profiters.. Politics have always been edgy and it can never be not edgy.. But at the end of the day you'd have to ask the question of how much good you have done versus how much bad you have done in order to prove your good intentions..

[Maula Dha Mallang]

ok look first things first, im trying my best to post as many reliable sources as i can and even though ive never liked the current iranian regime, ive ALWAYS respected ayatollah khomeini. all my uncles were supporters and students at the time of the revolution, and visited france to see him. i was raised in this environment. in the pakistani community ayatollah khomeini is probably the most respected person, second maybe only to shoaib akhtar lol.

its not a small thing to hear these things in my OP, and i have every right to post a thread about them trying to see if they are true or not. the original thread before it got moved showed just the level of blind love people have towards ayatollah khomeini, it reminds me of the way sunnis have a blind unquestioning love towards 1, 2 and 3. ayatollah khomeini was NOT masoom. if someone questions something theres no need to jump down his frickin throat. thanks mods you have done a good job my movin it here.

khair.

Imam Khomeini [r] was already on the level of marjiyyat/ijtehad as to speak but never declared it due to his respect for his teachers. The same you will find with almost all the marjas, Ayatollah Sistani did not declare it until after the death of his teacher Ayatollah Khoei but it was well known from before that he was on the level of ijtehad.

i think my point (2) was not hinting he was not qualified for his job, the point was, that ayatollah shariatmadari was either instrumental, if not that then at least a significant member of a group, of ulema who granted ayatollah khomeini the title of mujtahid.

i mentioned ayatollah shariatmadaris name because of what happened afterwards to him. bro persian shah denies this and says that ayatollah shariatmadari opposed ayatollah khomeini from the start. it seems clear to me that this is a good place to look. either ayatollah shariatmadari opposed his elevation, or he didnt. one way or another ill try and find a credible source.

leave it with me bro, im new to all of this.

The concept is known as Maslaha to which all Scholars agree that the Faqih has the authority to overturn the Sharia for the benefit of the individual when there is great harm if you do otherwise. Imam Khomeini revive the ideas of Allama Naraki in stating that the Faqih who is the head of the state has the power to overturn the Sharia for the benefit of the State. Imam Khomeini [r] issued the ruling in regards to the Hajj that year was because the year prior to that 400 Hajjis were killed hence Imam Khomeini [r] concluded that it was not wajib for them to go for Hajj as their lives were at risk. Also note when something is deemed not wajib does not mean it is prohibited.

erm bro, if all scholars believed in the idea, then where/ when did ayatollah al-khoei say that ruling for the benefit of the state?

and also, werent the hajj ceremonies completely stopped until way after ayatollah khomeini died, as a protest against the saudi regime? im sure ive read this.

sakhi how can a mashala change whats haram into the halal and vice verca? according to which scholars does maslaha mean overriding a wajib act commanded by god and prevetning it?

look at some of these quotes i picked up from that famous FM thread...are these really the views of WF mutlaqeh that ayatollah khomeini pushed for ayatollah khamenei?

Mesbah: "The validity of the WF is not dependent on the people." (During a speech to supervisors of elections, Entekhab News Agency, 29 Bahman 1384), "The WF in an Islamic government receives his legitimacy from God." (IRNA, 1385 / 04 / 26), "Opposition to WF is opposition to the Imams , and infact, polytheism (shirk) towards God."

(Rasa News Agency, 16 Farvardin 1383).

Qaravian: "People know very well that rulership (hukomat) does not belong to the people, but to God. People goto elections to give their allegiance (Bay'at) to the WF, not to make rulings in place of God (i.e. decide the ruler)."

(Resalat newspaper, p. 32, Dey 1384)

Jannati: "The WF has power over the lives, belongings and honor of the people. The same powers that the Prophet (s) had. WF has these powers, in order to preserve the expediency of society."

(WF Seminar in Saari, Radio Tehran 20:00 News, 29 Ordibehesht 1361).

Mahdavi Kani: "WF is the center around which the Revolution revolves. You say that the legitimacy of WF comes from the people? What kind of talk is this? You made it up yourselves?" (Resalat, 13 / 11 / 1375)

Khaz'ali: "Obedience to a repressive king even under the threat of a spear is invalid but obedience to WF is mandatory."

(Khordad newspaper, 16 / 3 / 78)

Meshkini: "The Leader, or WF, is appointed by God. But because people do not have the power to determine who it is, they cannot find him."

(Shahrvand newspaper, 9 Khordad 1381)

Namazi: "The Guardian Ship of the Jurisprudent is a continuation of the Guardianship of the Commander of the Faithful , and because of this the enemy is unhappy, because a just WF is infact an appointée of God."

(Resa News Agency, 16 Farvardin 1383)

Shariatmadari "saved" Khomeini's life ? He was involved in the assasination attempt and Khomeini did not strip him of his religious rank. All the teachers of the Hawza agreed upon this.

Watch the confession online here for yourself:

i dont think that "confession" amounts to much. you put a frail old man under house arrest and deny him medications so he is in agony, he will confess to anything just to get you off his case. and from what im reading at the moment, the only link between ayatollah shariatmadari and the plot was that clean shaven guy with the weird name, quzbzadeh or summat, who himself confessed under "questioning". im trying to find verifyable sources and will post them accordingly.

Source ? As far as I know, he only lowered the standard one noch from Marja to mujtahid.

why do you ask for a source if you admit in the same sentence that there WAS a change?

I doubt you really are. You have always disliked Khomeini and the IRI. Your posts in this thread are no different, mere attempt to try and degrade him..

wtf is that baqwaas, ive always hated khomeini??? show me a single SENTENCE since i joined in 2003 when ive ever even HINTED i was not a supporter of khomeini. bro follower even gave me a sig with his picture and quotation on it for most of a year!!! and ive said this plenty of times, and i know you know this, that i dont like the current regime. that doesnt mean i hate the country or the people.

Do you know anything about WF ?

no, none at all. why dont you start my eduction by showing me the views of ayatollah al khoei on WF muqtala?

I have not actually heard about the apologising part but yes Imam Khomeini [r] did write to him clarifying how his statement is against the doctrine of Wilayatul Faqee al mutlaqa.

yeah bro i think we have both read the same letter lol, here it is:

Kayhan 2.1.88. Quoted in The Constitution of Iran by Asghar Schirazi, circa p.230

LETTER FROM AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI TO KHAMENEI RE: ABSOLUTE POWER OF THE WF

It appears from your Excellency's statements at the Friday prayer [Khutab jamat] that you do not regard government to be equivalent to the absolute governance [wilayat-i mutlaqa], which was bestowed on the most noble Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) by God, and which is the most important part of the divinely ordained position, and which has preponderance over all other ordinances that are dependent upon his position (as wali-yi mutlaq). Your interpretation of what I have said -- that the government is empowered to act only within the framework of the existing secondary divine ordinances [preserved in the shari'ah] -- runs entirely counter to what I have in fact said. Were the powers of government to lie only within the framework of secondary divine decrees, the designation of the divine government and absolute deputed guardianship (wilayat-i mutlaqa-yi mufawwada) to the Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him and his progeny) would have been in practice entirely without meaning and content. ... I must point out, the government which is a branch of the absolute governance of the Prophet of God is among the primary ordinances of Islam, and has precedence over all secondary ordinances such as prayer, fasting, and pilgrimage. (italics added)

Hamid Algar, `Development of the Concept of velayat-i faqih since the Islamic Revolution in Iran,` paper presented at London Conference on wilayat al-faqih, in June, 1988] [p.135-8]

Also Ressalat, Tehran, 7 January 1988.

[layman]

Mesbah: "The validity of the WF is not dependent on the people." (During a speech to supervisors of elections, Entekhab News Agency, 29 Bahman 1384), "The WF in an Islamic government receives his legitimacy from God." (IRNA, 1385 / 04 / 26), "Opposition to WF is opposition to the Imams , and infact, polytheism (shirk) towards God."

(Rasa News Agency, 16 Farvardin 1383).

Qaravian: "People know very well that rulership (hukomat) does not belong to the people, but to God. People goto elections to give their allegiance (Bay'at) to the WF, not to make rulings in place of God (i.e. decide the ruler)."

(Resalat newspaper, p. 32, Dey 1384)

Jannati: "The WF has power over the lives, belongings and honor of the people. The same powers that the Prophet (s) had. WF has these powers, in order to preserve the expediency of society."

(WF Seminar in Saari, Radio Tehran 20:00 News, 29 Ordibehesht 1361).

Mahdavi Kani: "WF is the center around which the Revolution revolves. You say that the legitimacy of WF comes from the people? What kind of talk is this? You made it up yourselves?" (Resalat, 13 / 11 / 1375)

Khaz'ali: "Obedience to a repressive king even under the threat of a spear is invalid but obedience to WF is mandatory."

(Khordad newspaper, 16 / 3 / 78)

Meshkini: "The Leader, or WF, is appointed by God. But because people do not have the power to determine who it is, they cannot find him."

(Shahrvand newspaper, 9 Khordad 1381)

Namazi: "The Guardian Ship of the Jurisprudent is a continuation of the Guardianship of the Commander of the Faithful , and because of this the enemy is unhappy, because a just WF is infact an appointée of God."

(Resa News Agency, 16 Farvardin 1383)

THe highest level of an Arif (Irfani person), his nafs is fully controlled by Allah swt through Ahlulbayt (as). Salman al-farsi was one example of the past.

Wilayatul Fagih is reserved to a leader who is an Arif and his nafs is controlled by Allah swt through Ahlulbayt (as). Imam Khomeini (ra) has reached that level of an Ariff.

We follow our Prophet and Imams because their nafs are fully controlled by Allah swt. They will not deviate, but fully protected. The Light of Allah swt is within them.

Ulamas that supported Imam Khomeini as the Wilayatul fagih knew very well that the true essence of Imam Khomeini (ra). That is the reason they be obedience to him, because they know Imam Khomeini would always direct his nafs to be with Ahlulbayt (as). Ulamas that were jealous to the status of Imam Khomeini and conspired against the Revolution will not able to see the true essence of Imam Khomeini. They only knew Imam Khomeini was just as an ordinary ulama who knowledge was gained through learning (not directly from the Living Imam)

THe Light of Allah swt descends into the Prophet and Imams and then after to those servants that Allah swt has chosen, in this case the Wilayatul Faghih...and then after to those servants who served Ahlulbayt (as) under the guidance of a Wilayat Fagih...in this case the people of the Islamic Rep of Iran in general. They will be blessed with unity and strength to face all the threats from the enemies of Islam.

The same Light that exists in the Prophet and Imams existed in Imam Khomeini (ra). That is why obedience to Chosen Wilayatul Fagih is Mutlaq, not because of gained knowledge (from Hawza), but because of the brightness of the Light.

Still the Light that exist in Imam Khomeini (ra) is shining brightly in the hearts of many believers today.... example is the Hezbollah Fighters in Lebanon.

Layman

[Arman]

Hey I have an idea (for the second time), go back to your first post. Copy/paste all points and under each point add your proof. If you can't seem to find any, ask for Bintulhuda to help you, she wrote that all the proof is there so she must have seen it (will lessen the search). The way it is going now is no way of discussing. You are jumping on anything your google searches are feeding you.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Salamalaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaato Hu,

The Praise of Allah, who alone is the Most Munificient and Our Cherisher.

Everyone knows my inclinations regarding this subject and I am neither her to oppose or support anything anyone has said here but some questions if anyone could answer. These are related to the topic so don't rubbish it out but try to reflect.

What is the value of a revolution in the eyes of Allah azwj when He himself has delayed punishments for the attrocities commited by enemies of Islam against ahlulbayth a..s and what is the relevance of a revolution to Shiism ?

Ya Ali Madad

[seekers14]

in the name of Allah, the beneficient, the merciful.

lanat on the enemies of the ahlebeyt.

firstly, no im not a fitnah monger. im not a zionist spy. im not disrespecting and scholar and im not making a meaningless thread.

this is a serious, critical discussion i want.

the basis of this thread was this:

political thought and legacy of ayatollah khomeini:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_tho...acy_of_Khomeini

are the following points true or not:

(1) ayatollah khomeini was about to get executed in jail

(2) ayatollah shariatmadari (Allah bless his soul) went around and got loads of marjas signatures to make ayatollah khomeini a mujtahid cos mujtahids cant be put to death

(3) the revolution happened, many scholars were instrumental in rallying support and spreading the word, but only ayatollah khomeini was recognised as the key player.

(4) the pasdars were a bunch of goddamned gestapo harami zalims, torturing and killing people like crazy

(5) ayatollah khomeini pushed this wilayat faqih muqtala thing, loads of scholars disagreed with him

(6) one of the rights of the WF is to change the furu e deen astagfirullah. case in point - ayatollah khomeini stopped people going to hajj for a year, as though he has any right to do that.

[p.135-6] [source: Hamid Algar, `Development of the Concept of velayat-i faqih since the Islamic Revolution in Iran,` paper presented at London Conference on wilayat al-faqih, in June, 1988]

(7) marjas disagreed with this view. marjas included ayatollah shaheed shariatmadari, ayatollah shirazi, ayatollah montazeri and ayatollah rastegrari.

(8) ayatollah shariatmadari was STRIPPED of his marja status, and tortured to death for opposing the WF. the man who saved ayatollah khomeinis life. from what ive heard, death must have been a sweet relief for him after what he endured at the hands of the pro WF police. may Allah rest his soul.

(9) when ayatollah khamenei was sworn in (or whatever its called) he said something along the lines of the jurist doesnt have complete authority, and was critisised by ayatollah khomeini and apologised for it

(10) why did ayatollah khomeini first say that the most knowledgeable man had to be WF, and then retract that statement later?

if these 10 points are indeed true, then im sorry to say this, im heartbroken to say this, but the image we have of ayatollah khomeini is a lie. he is NOT the noble leader we all were taught.

I don't have answer of your all questions, but i have to say few words, which i get learn from his Book "WILL" of Ayatollah Khomeni.

This book was printed and translated in urdu by Khana Frhang Iran edition of 1988.(i have once send title page pic. of this book on SC, in Books,article section)

In more than 80-90 pages i don't find any his words in favor Wilayat Faqeh.He advice that my Will should be read by my son,next Leader of parliment,if not available than Qazi of court.

One most important thing i find in this book is his statement" Please don't accept my any statement without my signature,some people are going active in spreading my fake statments.Beware of these people they would be more active after my life.

He also warn that enemies could not harm us in war but they would enter thier agents in ulma soo,so be alert from them.

[Rubaiyat]

This is a pathetic Google thread with nobody that has the time to reply to these ridiculous elementary statements.

I read a few of them and most of them are either completely made up, from unofficial sources (words of Imam is documented by certified institutions) and misquoted.

Please find a new hobby like cutting yourself and if you have a few questions put them into one post below each other with relevant sources so we can take this seriously. IranFocus, Iran VNC, Voice of America is NOT a legitimate source for such accusations, and this is exactly where all of your claims are from.