Is it really right for her to die unmarried?

[Guest]

Even if this passing on of "syedness" is so important to some people, how can they not be sure that after several generations in the future, the chain breaks? It simply takes a family of only daughters marrying Nonsyeds further down the line that disrupts the whole thing. Not all generations are going to follow the stricter rules on this matter than maybe their ancestors did.

[OneNoteSong]

For background on what I'm about to say next: Each cell of our body has two major compartments--the nucleus and cytoplasm. The cytoplasm has other compartments called mitochondria.

In reference to Smiley's comment, actually, the mom passes on more genetic material to her kids than does the dad because while both parents contribute 1/2 and 1/2 to nuclear DNA, all of the cytoplasmic DNA such as that in mitochondria is from the mom.

Edited February 8, 2009 by LukeSkywalker786

[Guest]

For background on what I'm about to say next: Each cell of our body has two major compartments--the nucleus and cytoplasm. The cytoplasm has other compartments called mitochondria.

In reference to Smiley's comment, actually, the mom passes on more genetic material to her kids than does the dad because while both parents contribute 1/2 and 1/2 to nuclear DNA, all of the cytoplasmic DNA such as that in mitochondria is from the mom.

But the mitochondrial DNA is only a very small fraction of the size of nuclear DNA. Also, the father determines the gender of the offspring because it depends on whether or not the Y chromosome is passed on or not. It is not a matter of who "passes on more" genetic material, it is what it does. Also, things like genomic imprinting and X-linked inactivation influence the balance between maternal and paternal inheritance.

[OneNoteSong]

But the mitochondrial DNA is only a very small fraction of the size of nuclear DNA. Also, the father determines the gender of the offspring because it depends on whether or not the Y chromosome is passed on or not. It is not a matter of who "passes on more" genetic material, it is what it does. Also, things like genomic imprinting and X-linked inactivation influence the balance between maternal and paternal inheritance.

You're right that mitochondrial DNA is only a small amount, but I never said that it's significantly more DNA. I was referring solely to DNA amounts because that's what smiley was talking about, not expression.

[deNOVO]

So "syedness" is a genetic trait that is only passed to the offspring by the father? :wacko:

Knowledgable brothers, Its already hard enough to reach to a consenus conclusion : bring in GENETICS, and there u GO! lol

btw, genetically ... half the genes from the father, to meet up with half the genes of the mother : add to that the negligible amount of DNA in mitochondria for abt 17 proteins i guess, EXCLUSIVELY from the mother ... by this argument alone, for a puritan, half the syed + half the syed wud equal/RESTORE the syed blood-line to a completely syed one ! but then, there are issues like re-arrangement and cross over of the genes, so they create a totally new, but similar genetic make up!

IN SHORT, by the genetic Theory, neither the purists nor the neo-thinkers would win : and above everything .... we were talking abt that individual here, or many like her:how come it has come down to genetic calculatuons like this??? :o

Edited February 8, 2009 by deNOVO

[ibrahim1088]

So "syedness" is a genetic trait that is only passed to the offspring by the father? :wacko:

LOL! it must be on the Y-chromosome then...

[Guest]

LOL! it must be on the Y-chromosome then...

No, then there would be no such thing as a Syed female, because they have no Y chromosome. :angel:

[Guest]

It has to be a recessive trait on the x-chromosome, I think.

On second thought, I don't think thinking of it from a genetics point of view works at all.

Well, we are talking about inheritance, so really genetics has to have something to do with it, but we probably don't know conclusively what it means. Modern genetics as a viable science has only been around for a few decades.

[deNOVO]

LOL! it must be on the Y-chromosome then...

LoL .. but a brother already replied to that! :P Unless its a female with Complete Androgen Insensitivity, how come there are SYEDAS around! :D

[OneNoteSong]

Wasn't the Prophet's blood passed from him to his daughter to her offspring? So, the Prophet's descendants were directly through a woman. How can rules change after that to make Syedness a trait that only men, not women can pass on?

[Guest]

Wasn't the Prophet's blood passed from him to his daughter to her offspring? So, the Prophet's descendants were directly through a woman. How can rules change after that to make Syedness a trait that only men, not women can pass on?

That's a very interesting question. I don't know the exact explanation for this.

[asma0401]

when we die, they bury us with our father's name right? that's why. even when you adopt a child they are given their biological father's name.

[Zoya]

Wasn't the Prophet's blood passed from him to his daughter to her offspring? So, the Prophet's descendants were directly through a woman. How can rules change after that to make Syedness a trait that only men, not women can pass on?

Oh give it a rest people! If you must know, I'll let you in on an open secret (it comes with the little genetic bonsai tree!): Amongst the numerous titles and pure charachteristics specific to Sayyeda Fatima (salwatullah alaiha) is the fact outlined above; the Prophet's (saw) bloodline carries on through his daughter. It is the manifestation of Al-Kauthar. It is why Hassan and Husayn (as) are known as the sons of Rasoolallah (saw). Imam Ali (as) had 18 sons, none of the others were known or referred to as Sayyeds, historically they called themselves Alawis (not to be confused with the Alawi sect). There are Hassani Sayyeds but any decendants of the remaining 7 Imams are all Husayni Sayyeds. So yes, all Syedness is in fact due to Sayyeda Fatima. This is her distinction and hers alone, not shared by any other woman. So Syedness is not passed on through women. Perhaps Sayyeds should start calling themselves Fatimis (Fatimiyyeen already being claimed by the North African Caliphates in Islmaic history).

[Zoya]

And now what with these exes and whys being thrown around, I wonder how long it is before some clever lil johnny come up with a punnet square...

[deNOVO]

Imam Ali (as) had 18 sons, none of the others were known or referred to as Sayyeds, historically they called themselves Alawis (not to be confused with the Alawi sect).

Hmmm... thats really really interesting : i mean, if they were the children of the same father and the same mother, how come some of them were to carry the blodd and others NOT???? Sounds ... errr.... weird and unfair this thinking i must say, or may be there's something behind the veil for me here!!!

Edited February 8, 2009 by deNOVO

[Maryaam]

I think I invented a new word. :P

You have!!! Once the word is used without quotations, it is established :D

Perhaps we should contact Websters...... :Hijabi:

[Zoya]

Hmmm... thats really really interesting : i mean, if they were the children of the same father and the same mother, how come some of them were to carry the blodd and others NOT???? Sounds ... errr.... weird and unfair this thinking i must say, or may be there's something in the veil for me here!!!

Apart from Hasnain (as), the others were from different mothers.

[deNOVO]

Apart from Hasnain (as), the others were from different mothers.

Why even mention those other respected children then, if they weren't of the Holy lineage???? :D the matter in lime-light here is the Holy lineage and whether it is supposed to be adhered to with this vigour???? isn't it??? :)

Edited February 8, 2009 by deNOVO

[Zoya]

I think I invented a new word. :P

Thanks smiley. You've made the world just a wee bit better! I'm still debating the merit of syedness though. its too close to holiness for comfort.

[ibrahim1088]

Wasn't the Prophet's blood passed from him to his daughter to her offspring? So, the Prophet's descendants were directly through a woman. How can rules change after that to make Syedness a trait that only men, not women can pass on?

you cant really compare the prophet (s.a.w.w.) to any other person on earth

Imam Ali (as) and the prophet (s.a.w.w.) were created from the same light (in mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnny hadeeths)

and Imam Ali (as) is the prophet's (s.a.w.w.) cousin ( i.e. their dads are brothers, i.e. they have the same grandfather)

[Zoya]

Why not?? - they have X chromosomes. Two of them. Fatima could only give an X chromosome...

Because it was a distinction specific to and for Sayyeda Fatima only.

[deNOVO]

I'm still debating the merit of syedness though. its too close to holiness for comfort.

I completely agree.... and nicely expressed : make it 'Holy' like the holy 'Chalice' and u'll have another huge dilemma telling right from wrong, rituals from fiqh!

[nastynas]

Wasn't the Prophet's blood passed from him to his daughter to her offspring? So, the Prophet's descendants were directly through a woman. How can rules change after that to make Syedness a trait that only men, not women can pass on?

You are right if you ask "if Bibi Fatima (sa) was the propagator of the Syed lineage, then how and when did it switch to a man?" Let me clarify "Bibi Fatima (s.a.) was not the propagator of the Syed lineage, and the title was never switch to a man from a woman?"

Bibi (sa) were, of course, one of the strongest link of this lineage.

Let me remind you Imam Ali (as) too belonged to the same family to which Bibi Fatima (sa) was, and he too was a Syed which literally means "Leader" in Arabic.

Imam Ali (as)'s father Hazrat Abu Talib (as) were the custodian of Holy Kaba and also the leader of his tribe. So he and entire family of Bani Hashim were known as "Syeds". So, the title subsequently transferred to their (Bani Hashim's) sons and daughters.

"Syed" means the person belongs to the family of Bani Hashim to which Prophet (saws) was, so if you say that "the religion passed on from the father and not the mother, like it was with Bibi Fatima (sa)?" then you are wrong.

Both Bibi Fatima (sa) and Imam Ali (as) were Syeds so were their sons.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

[Zoya]

Why even mention those other respected children then, if they weren't of the Holy lineage???? :D the matter in lime-light here is the Holy lineage and whether it is supposed to be adhered to with this vigour???? isn't it??? :)

I guess if you read what i wrote a little carefully, you'll understand what I am talking about. This isn't some sort of Da Vinci code conspiracy. Sayed is a title given to those belonging to the bloodline of the Holy Prophet through Sayyeda Fatima only. It isn't given to the bloodline of Imam Ali (as). That is why the other sons of Imam Ali (as) are not called Sayyeds.

There is no rigorous religious law which stops sayeds / sherifs from marrying out. Sayyeds are not a caste either, despite what Indo-pak people tell you. There is an issue of taking khums. But this applies to the Hashemites (as they were then known) too.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Zoya

[Zoya]

Err Nastynas, there is a slight but very subtle difference. Fatima and Ali were Hashemites. Sayeds did not exist but as decendents of the Prophet through Fatima. This was a special distinction of Fatima (sa).

[Zoya]

Anyway, I guess what I want to say is real sayyed, fake sayyed, green sayyed, chinese sayyed won't-marry-but-a-sayyed sayyed...whatever reservations we have, we shouldn't really lose sight of what the association means in essence or more specifically who it means.

[OneNoteSong]

You are right if you ask "if Bibi Fatima (sa) was the propagator of the Syed lineage, then how and when did it switch to a man?" Let me clarify "Bibi Fatima (s.a.) was not the propagator of the Syed lineage, and the title was never switch to a man from a woman?"

Bibi (sa) were, of course, one of the strongest link of this lineage.

Let me remind you Imam Ali (as) too belonged to the same family to which Bibi Fatima (sa) was, and he too was a Syed which literally means "Leader" in Arabic.

Imam Ali (as)'s father Hazrat Abu Talib (as) were the custodian of Holy Kaba and also the leader of his tribe. So he and entire family of Bani Hashim were known as "Syeds". So, the title subsequently transferred to their (Bani Hashim's) sons and daughters.

"Syed" means the person belongs to the family of Bani Hashim to which Prophet (saws) was, so if you say that "the religion passed on from the father and not the mother, like it was with Bibi Fatima (sa)?" then you are wrong.

Both Bibi Fatima (sa) and Imam Ali (as) were Syeds so were their sons.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

Then why are the other sons of Imam Ali (as) through mothers other than Bibi Fatima (as) not called Sayyeds, but Alawis? That seems to indicate that "Sayyed" means descendant of the Prophet through Bibi Fatima (as)

[BabyBeaverIsAKit]

You are right if you ask "if Bibi Fatima (sa) was the propagator of the Syed lineage, then how and when did it switch to a man?" Let me clarify "Bibi Fatima (s.a.) was not the propagator of the Syed lineage, and the title was never switch to a man from a woman?"

Bibi (sa) were, of course, one of the strongest link of this lineage.

Let me remind you Imam Ali (as) too belonged to the same family to which Bibi Fatima (sa) was, and he too was a Syed which literally means "Leader" in Arabic.

Imam Ali (as) 's father Hazrat Abu Talib (as) were the custodian of Holy Kaba and also the leader of his tribe. So he and entire family of Bani Hashim were known as "Syeds". So, the title subsequently transferred to their (Bani Hashim's) sons and daughters.

"Syed" means the person belongs to the family of Bani Hashim to which Prophet (saws) was, so if you say that "the religion passed on from the father and not the mother, like it was with Bibi Fatima (sa)?" then you are wrong.

Both Bibi Fatima (sa) and Imam Ali (as) were Syeds so were their sons.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

That's a weak argument. Syedness is passed vertically, not horizontally. If Syed means just belonging to the family of Bani Hashim, then if one of my aunts or uncles marries a Syed/Syeda, then my cousin will be a Syed/Syeda. If Syedness were passed horizontally, then by having a Syed cousin, that would make me Syed as well.

And, if it were horizontal, how far did it extend? You said the Bani Hashim, but what about his distant cousins that may not have been part of the Bani Hashim? How distant did it extend, horizontally?

Edited February 9, 2009 by BabyBeaverIsAKit

[nastynas]

It has to be a recessive trait on the x-chromosome, I think.

On second thought, I don't think thinking of it from a genetics point of view works at all.

A genetic heritage is traced via the Y chromosome - a member can trace their roots via the Ychormoosome... The X chromosome is vulnerable to mutation and evolution where as the Ychormosome resists both mutations and evolutions.

If you have a living male and a dna sample centureis ago of his forefather- u can easily match it up directly.

the X chormosome on the other hand is combination of a maternal mother and paternal grandmother so if a female is Syed from both mother and fathers side, she will have the X chromosome from Bibi Fatima (as) (who has it from bibi Amina (sa) and Bibi Khadija) and via Imam Ali (as) who has it from His mother Bibi Fatima (sa) - (Hazrat Abu Talibs (as)'s wife).

In humans, the Y chromosome spans 58 million base pairs (the building blocks of DNA) and represents approximately 0.38% of the total DNA in a human cell. The human Y chromosome contains 86[5] genes, which code for only 23 distinct proteins. Traits that are inherited via the Y chromosome are called holandric traits.

The human Y chromosome is unable to recombine with the X chromosome, except for small pieces of pseudoautosomal regions at the telomeres (which comprise about 5% of the chromosome's length). These regions are relics of ancient homology between the X and Y chromosomes. The bulk of the Y chromosome which does not recombine is called the "NRY" or non-recombining region of the Y chromosome.[8] It is the SNPs in this region which are used for tracing direct paternal ancestral lines.

In human genetic genealogy (the application of genetics to traditional genealogy) use of the information contained in the Y chromosome is of particular interest since, unlike other genes, the Y chromosome is passed exclusively from father to son.[9] See www.smgf.org for more information. Mitochondrial DNA, maternally inherited, is used in an analogous way to trace the maternal line.

[Zoya]

All these linears and horizontals are making feel like I'm part of a never ending wordsearch. Its too complicated for me. I'm out.

[nastynas]

Then why are the other sons of Imam Ali (as) through mothers other than Bibi Fatima (as) not called Sayyeds, but Alawis? That seems to indicate that "Sayyed" means descendant of the Prophet through Bibi Fatima (as)

According to traditions of Aima Masomeen (as) , see AlKafi, chapter 130, tradition no. 4, the descendants of 'Abd al-Muttalib (sws) as were considered Syeds, both males and females and eligible for Khums. It's along tradition, so only few paragraphs are given below:

(4) Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashim has narrated from his father, who from Hammad ibn 'Isa, who from certain persons of our people, who from the virtuous servant of Allah (swt) who has said the following.

"Al-Khums (one fifth) is due on five categories of properties.

(1) Cattle;

(2) Properties acquired from diving into deep waters;

(3) The treasures;

(4) The mines; and

(5) Salts. On each of such categories al-Khums is due.

Such one fifth is distributed just as Allah (swt) has done. The remaining four portions is distributed among those who has taken part in the actual fighting or those lending support behind the front. The one fifth is distributed as follows. One portion for Allah azwj, one the Messenger of Allah saws, one for the relatives (of the Messenger of Allah saww), one for the orphans, one for the destitute and one portion for those who become needy during a journey. Thus, the portion for Allah (swt) and the Messenger of Allah (saws) belong to Leadership with Divine Authority after the Messenger of Allah (saws) as the portion of inheritance. Thus, he (swt) (Leadership with Divine Authority) will have three portions. Two portions as inheritance and one is that which Allah azwj has granted to him. Fifty percent of al-Khums (one fifth) belongs to him, the Imam (Leader with Divine Authority). The other fifty percent of al-Khums belongs to his family members. One portion for the orphans thereof, one portion for the destitute thereof, one portion for those of them who become needy while on a journey. It is distributed among them according to the rules in the book and the Sunnah. The limit is an amount that would suffice their expenses for a whole year. If anything is left extra it will go to the Wali, (Leadership with Divine Authority). In the case of deficit the Wali (Leadership with Divine Authority) is responsible to provide and pay the deficit and as much as it would fulfill their needs. Wali is responsible to pay the deficit because the extra is given to him. Allah azwj has given

this one fifth exclusively to them and not the destitute from the masses and those of them who become needy on a journey as a replacement for the charities which may be given to other people. It is a sign of honour for them (Ahlul Bait as) because of their being the relatives of the Messenger of Allah (saws) and an honour from Allah (swt) to keep them secure from the filth off the hands of people. Thus, (khums) is for them only as sustenance and save them from humiliation and destitution. They may receive other forms of charities from each other.

The eligible for 'al-Khums' are the relatives of the Holy Prophet (saws) whom Allah (swt) has mentioned in His words. "Warn your close relatives." (26:214) They are the sons of 'Abd al-Muttalib (sws) themselves, the males and the females. No one, belonging to the families of Quraysh or the Arabs (has the privilege) to be from considered among them. Among them or from them also is none of their slave, to have a portion in al-Khums. The charities of the masses of people have been made lawful for their (as) slaves to consume. Their slaves and the masses of people are of the same status. Such charities are, lawful to the family of that whose mother is from the family of Hashim and his father comes from the masses of people.. Such person is not entitled to receive from al-Khums because Allah(swt), the Most High has said, "Call them sons of their own fathers." (33:5).

Also Bani Abbas, although claimed to be among Syed but were not Syeds, Imam Ali Raza (as) made it very clear to Mamoon Rashid Abbasi by saying if

Prophet Mohammed (saws) would come and ask for your daughter's hand (for marriage) what would you do? He replied yes, I will marry my daughter to him (saws), Imam (as) replied I will not do so as she would be daughter to Him (saws). Abbas r.a. was not real uncle of Rasool Allah (saws) rather a slave which was set free, he used to ask from Masomeen (as) about the fate of his descendents but Masomeen (as) would say to him that he will die on 'Khair; right path but don't ask about your descendents).

Coming back to the main topic, Children of Adu al-Muttalib were Syed and then the Children of Imam Hassan sws and Hussain sws were given this status (as per Surah-e-Rahman), In the past, as Imamat was given to the Hazrat Ismail (as) and not to the descendent of Hazrat Yaquub a.s., as per Quran, which Jews

did not like.

I hope that explains my views but It is very late for me so appolgise if I have made any errors or mistakes in this post, although I am sure you will point them out if I have...

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

[BabyBeaverIsAKit]

We just need to stop this elitist junk that is not true Islam!

[nastynas]

We just need to stop this elitist junk that is not true Islam!

Subhanallah, what an articulate/intelligent reply :yaali:

[Guest]

We just need to stop this elitist junk that is not true Islam!

This is basically what it comes down to.

[deNOVO]

We just need to stop this elitist junk that is not true Islam!

Rightly said though the harsh way, i guess! :P