Is it really right for her to die unmarried?

[deNOVO]

(bismillah)

Back in college, i had a female teacher for whom i grew immense respect and liking. She was a Zaidi Syed Shia and had everything a guy would want in his wife: educated, beautiful, an excellent person, and the list goes on ...

Approaching 30,she wasn't married as yet, and we were close enough for me to ask her why it was like that: her response, "there's no suitable Syed guy available!" Back then, not fully realising the importance of the point, on a lighter tone, i asked her if she was to die virgin waiting for one, rather than getting married to a non-Syed! And she to my utmost surprise, very seriously said : "Yes...what other OPTIONS do i have!" Caught by the awkwardness of the moment and the pain in her voice, i simply changed the topic.

Now that i've gotta chance to understand and discuss the the issue better and rather openly, i wanna get a few points clarified, if u may:

1. I understand the purity of blood-line and the concept behind it perfectly! and i think, to strive for it is perfectly okay. But is it to be adhered to, this strictly? doesn't that give a jewish tinge to this whole thing, for they too can't have a 'converted jew' for the same reaso? For them,a curse in itself though!

2. Given the clear Quraanic instructions abt Monin-for-Momin, i wonder why did she put it in terms of "CHOICES"! i mean, is it some kind of a relegious compulsion or anything, going by the Shia teachings??? (i personally don't think so: doesn't appeal to reason-being careful abt it does, though)

3. Wouldn't it be okay for her to give up HER blood-line if thats the issue, if she HAS to, as there's no threat to the bloodline going extinct ALHAMDULILLAH, rather than living a rather NuN-ish life? Or is it Zaidis only practicing it this rigidly???

4. Wat are the teachings in her case if, one: there's a Shia guy who's not a Syed, two: there's a Syed guy who's not Shia, three: there's a Sunni guy who's not a Syed. Please clarify all these situations.

No offense intended ... its just another of those things i wanted to understand abt Shiaism as a way of life.

thank u all, in anticipation.

PEACE and BLESSINGS

Edited February 6, 2009 by deNOVO

[deNOVO]

The belief that a women of syed lineage must only marry a syed man is a cultural practice. It is a personal choice, not a requirement of Islam.

So i thought ... and so it should be, i personally think ! Thanks Brother :)

[seyedmusawi]

you asked her what?

[ibrahim1088]

(bismillah)

(salam)

"inna lilah wa inna elaihi rajio'n"

it is either traditions or ignorance that is killing people....

my mom is a syed, my father is not a sayed...

with all respect to the lady, but she is choosing a wrong path,

i havent came across any hadeeth that says it is haram for a syed female to marry a non sayed,

as i said, some people have wrongly taken tradition and replaced it with their Dein

"inna lilah wa inna elaihi rajio'n"

[toocoool66]

assalamoallaikom

Given the clear Quraanic instructions abt Monin-for-Momin,

dear will u give me any method of checking the eman of a person

because we cannot check the heart of person

and also there is no such thing called EMAN O METER

and we do read in quran , in surat hujaarat

13. íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáäøóÇÓõ ÅöäøóÇ ÎóáóÞúäóÇßõãú ãöäú ÐóßóÑò æóÃõäúËóìٰ æóÌóÚóáúäóÇßõãú ÔõÚõæÈðÇ æóÞóÈóÇÆöáó áöÊóÚóÇÑóÝõæÇ ۚ Åöäøó ÃóßúÑóãóßõãú ÚöäúÏó Çááøóåö ÃóÊúÞóÇßõãú ۚ Åöäøó Çááøóåó Úóáöíãñ ÎóÈöíÑñ

[Yusuf Ali] O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

[Mohsin Khan] O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. he is one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

[Pickthal] O mankind! Lo! We have created you from male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

[shakir] O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware

so the first thing is that tribal system or family system is made by Allah

so that we know each other

but the problem is that Allah says that in the sight of Allah , please ponder upon this , in the sight of Allah , who is more better is the one who has more taqwa....and why in the sight of Allah , Allah clarifies by saying

Åöäøó Çááøóåó Úóáöíãñ ÎóÈöíÑñ

Allah is knowing and aware, of course he can see.......what is there in your hearts......

Wouldn't it be okay for her to give up HER blood-line if thats the issue

u see it is not a matter of leaving your blood line

i mean if u have an order , u have to obey......quite simple.....

i mean till this time i have read ahadeeth which prohibit it

but none which allows it......this article covers the issue well

link: http://www.hubeali.com/Marriage-of-Syedani-with-Non-Syed.php

Wat are the teachings in her case if, one: there's a Shia guy who's not a Syed, two: there's a Syed guy who's not Shia, three: there's a Sunni guy who's not a Syed. Please clarify all these situations.

shia girl cannot marry a sunni , even though he may not be a nasibi.. this is what imam said

"Safwan quotes from Zara who heard from Imam Jafar-e-Sadiqsws that you may marry to the daughters of ‘Shaqaq’ but do not give your daughters in their Nikah. As wife would, usually, adopt her husband’s faith and remain under his influence in religious matters."

Manlah Yahzar-ul-Faqih, Kitab-ul-Nikah, tradition no.4426.

The belief that a women of syed lineage must only marry a syed man is a cultural practice. It is a personal choice, not a requirement of Islam

as per sheikh sadooq , it is not cultural but a matter of belief

he writes in his book AITAQADAT (beliefs) page 115 urdu

“Our belief about progeny of hadrat ali is that they are the Prophet’s descendants (children/progeny). Their Mawaddat is obligatory because this the Ajar – E – Rasaalat, and Sadaqah is prohibited on them being the cleansing part of (dirt) their Maal, except for their own amongst themselves, and they are ‘kufv’ of each other. This is due to the Prophet (pbuh) where he said on looking at the children of Ali (as) and Jaffar – E – Tayyar (as) that, OUR daughters are the equals of OUR sons and OUR sons of OUR daughters”.

i mean i know that now a days syed girls do face problem

but this is not because there is lack of syed boys but because girls demand have raised like if u r talking about your teacher

she would never like to be 2nd wife or marry to a person who is financially weak though

holy prophet said that if u marry , Allah will give u wealth

but we people doubt it

and that is the main problem.........

well every one is free and have the choice to follow what he thinks is correct ........

[AlwayS-Dhik'r]

Any person who thinks they are exalted by been a sayyid is kidding himself/herself this lady doesnt deserve any more then dying a virgin.

good riddance

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Wallahu alam. Syed like to remain virgin than marrying non-syed. My friend's parents are having the same in mind. They do not allow their Syed Shamsi son to marry a non-syed girl. This has given rise to many social problems.

[Guest]

Why is this mainly an issue in the Pakistani/Indian communities? Just asking, this seems to be what I have observed. I don't see the point of it all.

[Murteza]

^it's happened in Indonesia/Malay culture

[seyedmusawi]

lol..the irony is that her kids wouldn't even be seyed. Whats the point of all this?

This sounds more like hinduism than anything else.

I say she deserves it...let her live her life the way she wants.

[BabyBeaverIsAKit]

We have more girls than guys anyway, so girls like her even the ratio out a bit ;). lol I am joking. I do think that is extreme. Her kids will still be descendants of the Prophet, PBUH, regardless of who she marries.

Edited February 7, 2009 by BabyBeaverIsAKit

[Wilayate-Ali]

(bismillah)

(salam)

The SYED/NOn-Syed debate (with regards to marriage), has been quite a heated one, especially amongst people belonging to the Indian Subcontinent....

Earlier, my parents too (who are Syeds themselves) didnt believe in giving their daughter's hand in marriage to a non-syed.... but Alhamdullilah, they changed their minds, understanding that this issue is, but only a cultural obstruction...

I had posted a reply in a similar post earlier, and would like to repeat myself again...

The reality is, unfortunately, today, many sisters (and brothers) remain unmarried even after they cross the age of 30 (or why stop at 30, even 40+), just because they couldn't find the 'Mister/ Miss Perfect'.

Also, many of these obstacles arise (even though the daughter or son is willing to get married) due to many parents following their 'cultural criteria' more than the 'Islamic criteria'.

And this I have seen happening mostly in the Indian Subcontinent, or amongst people belonging to the Indian Subcontinent... Indian/Pakis...

A very important point to be noted here is that 'culture' (the man-made one which many of us follow; Indian culture/Paki culture) and 'Deen' (Allah's Islam) are two different things.

In fact, it can be said that: Islam is a UNIVERSAL and ADAPTABLE culture in ITSELF, for it is A WAY OF LIFE....

Coming back to the 'cultural criteria' , in the eyes of many parents of children awaiting to get married, include: 'SAYED/NON-SAYED', 'ISTEKHARA COMPATABILITY TEST', 'A LIST OF MUST-HAVE THINGS FOR THE GROOM/BRIDE-to-be' (such as a PhD, fair complexion, a mercedes benz, a penthouse!!)...

On the other hand, the Islamic Criteria, for the selection of a spouse is very simple and straight and the only CRITERIA which is supposed to be practiced. Since Islam has annulled any rules regarding to differences on the basis of race/ ethnicity and so on, there is no reason for us (Shias) to segregate between our brothers. The ISLAMIC CRITERIA includes: FAITH, ILM, AKHLAQ and KHANDAAN.....

The HOLY PROPHET (pbuh) HAS SAID: A mu’min is one who has a good character, follows the faith implicitly, and he is the kufuor match for another mu’min. If such a person asks for the hand of your daughter in marriage, agree to the proposal.

On another occasion, he (pbuh) said: “If you find a boy whose akhlaq (ethics) are good and follows the Faith properly, give your daughter in marriage to him. If matches are made without considering the aspects of akhlaq and faith, it will cause mischief and disturbance in the Islamic Society.

Especially, regarding the SYED/NON-SAYED part, i would like to say that we should not forget that we (AZadare-Husain) are born out of the DUA of BIBI SAYYEDA (as); as Mu'mins, we are ALL equal in her eyes - we are ONE.

Another very important point is DELAYING MARRIAGES INCULCATES MANY VICES IN THE SOCIETY... and many of us can witness that these are taken place even within the homes of our Mo'min brothers....

Its high time we actually start practicing Islamic values and principles which we have ignored due to our so-called 'culture', for remember, WE have to create a strong society of soldiers for the army of the HOLY AWAITED IMAM (atfs).

Islam has made life very simple for us. Unfortunately, it is we who are making life miserable for ourselves :dry: !!

(wasalam)

:angel:

[Nocturne]

dear will u give me any method of checking the eman of a person

because we cannot check the heart of person

and also there is no such thing called EMAN O METER

and we do read in quran , in surat hujaarat

and what is the guarantee that a Syed will be full of "eman". Do you have any eman meter for a Syed man?!! There are Syeds who allow people to do SAJDAH to them......

well every one is free and have the choice to follow what he thinks is correct........

Of course its my choice, you want me to believe its not allowed on that PDF you have linked to here which mentions how Isa bin Zaid Bin Imam Zain – Al – Abideen (as) prayed for his daughters death because he could not say he was Syed and he wanted not to marry his daughter away to a Non-Syed. :wacko:

The points of whole YOU/YOUR/US stuff written in that PDF to prove Non-Syed - Syeda marriage invalid is :wacko:

------

æóáÇó ÊóäßöÍõæÇú ãóÇ äóßóÍó ÂÈóÇÄõßõã ãøöäó ÇáäøöÓóÇÁ ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÓóáóÝó Åöäøóåõ ßóÇäó ÝóÇÍöÔóÉð æóãóÞúÊðÇ æóÓóÇÁ ÓóÈöíáÇð

[shakir 4:22] And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.

ÍõÑøöãóÊú Úóáóíúßõãú ÃõãøóåóÇÊõßõãú æóÈóäóÇÊõßõãú æóÃóÎóæóÇÊõßõãú æóÚóãøóÇÊõßõãú æóÎóÇáÇóÊõßõãú æóÈóäóÇÊõ ÇáÃóÎö æóÈóäóÇÊõ ÇáÃõÎúÊö æóÃõãøóåóÇÊõßõãõ ÇááÇøóÊöí ÃóÑúÖóÚúäóßõãú æóÃóÎóæóÇÊõßõã ãøöäó ÇáÑøóÖóÇÚóÉö æóÃõãøóåóÇÊõ äöÓóÂÆößõãú æóÑóÈóÇÆöÈõßõãõ ÇááÇøóÊöí Ýöí ÍõÌõæÑößõã ãøöä äøöÓóÂÆößõãõ ÇááÇøóÊöí ÏóÎóáúÊõã Èöåöäøó ÝóÅöä áøóãú ÊóßõæäõæÇú ÏóÎóáúÊõã Èöåöäøó ÝóáÇó ÌõäóÇÍó Úóáóíúßõãú æóÍóáÇóÆöáõ ÃóÈúäóÇÆößõãõ ÇáøóÐöíäó ãöäú ÃóÕúáÇóÈößõãú æóÃóä ÊóÌúãóÚõæÇú Èóíúäó ÇáÃõÎúÊóíúäö ÅóáÇøó ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÓóáóÝó Åöäøó Çááøåó ßóÇäó ÛóÝõæÑðÇ ÑøóÍöíãðÇ

[shakir 4:23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[toocoool66]

assalamoallaikom

and what is the guarantee that a Syed will be full of "eman". Do you have any eman meter for a Syed man?

is this answer to my question ......

all i said was that as we find in man la yahdaral faqih , there is a hadeeth which even shiekh sadooq quoted in his book

AITAQADAT , which says that syed is kufv for syed , and i said that Allah says in surat al hajjarat that i have made this family system(which u guys consider a hindu system) so that u can recognize each other

so atleast i can recognize i syed

and as per sadooq , syed is kufv for syed

but the interesting thing is that when u guys say that we will judge by eman......and marry on this basis

as the op said

so i replied

ok

if it is in quran

we will go ahead , but tell me the way of judging it ,,,,

is there any EMANOMETER available in iraq or iran ????

u may consider a person momin while he may actually be the greatest monafiq of all times and because of his greatness in nifaq , people might be considering him momin......

now you mentioned a verse of quran let me write it again

23. ÍõÑøöãóÊú Úóáóíúßõãú ÃõãøóåóÇÊõßõãú æóÈóäóÇÊõßõãú æóÃóÎóæóÇÊõßõãú æóÚóãøóÇÊõßõãú æóÎóÇáóÇÊõßõãú æóÈóäóÇÊõ ÇáúÃóÎö æóÈóäóÇÊõ ÇáúÃõÎúÊö æóÃõãøóåóÇÊõßõãõ ÇááøóÇÊöí ÃóÑúÖóÚúäóßõãú æóÃóÎóæóÇÊõßõãú ãöäó ÇáÑøóÖóÇÚóÉö æóÃõãøóåóÇÊõ äöÓóÇÆößõãú æóÑóÈóÇÆöÈõßõãõ ÇááøóÇÊöí Ýöí ÍõÌõæÑößõãú ãöäú äöÓóÇÆößõãõ ÇááøóÇÊöí ÏóÎóáúÊõãú Èöåöäøó ÝóÅöäú áóãú ÊóßõæäõæÇ ÏóÎóáúÊõãú Èöåöäøó ÝóáóÇ ÌõäóÇÍó Úóáóíúßõãú æóÍóáóÇÆöáõ ÃóÈúäóÇÆößõãõ ÇáøóÐöíäó ãöäú ÃóÕúáóÇÈößõãú æóÃóäú ÊóÌúãóÚõæÇ Èóíúäó ÇáúÃõÎúÊóíúäö ÅöáøóÇ ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÓóáóÝó ۗ Åöäøó Çááøóåó ßóÇäó ÛóÝõæÑðÇ ÑóÍöíãðÇ

[Ahmed Ali] Êã Ñ ÊãÀÇÑی ãÇÆیŸ ÇæÑ ÈیŠیÇŸ ÇæÑ ÈÀäیŸ ÇæÑ ªæªیÇŸ ÇæÑ ÎÇáÇÆیŸ ÇæÑ ÈªÊیÌیÇŸ ÇæÑ ÈªÇäÌیÇŸ ÇæÑ Ìä ãÇÄŸ äÿ ÊãÀیŸ ÏæϪ áÇیÇ ÇæÑ ÊãÀÇÑی ÏæϪ ÔÑی˜ ÈÀäیŸ ÇæÑ ÊãÀÇÑی ÚæÑÊæŸ ˜ی ãÇÆیŸ ÇæÑ Çä ˜ی ÈیŠیÇŸ ÌäÀæŸ äÿ ÊãÀÇÑی æÏ ãیŸ ÑæÑÔ ÇÆی Àÿ Çä Èیæیæ Ÿ ˜ی ᚘیÇŸ Ìä Óÿ ÊãÀÇÑ ÊÚáÞ Òä æ Ôæ Àæ ˜ÇÀÿ ÇæÑ ÇÑ ÊÚáÞ Òä æ Ôæ äÀ ÀæÇ Àæ Êæ Êã Ñ ÇÓ ä˜ÇÍ ãیŸ ˜ª äÇÀ äÀیŸ ÇæÑ ÊãÀÇÑÿ ÈیŠæ Ÿ ˜ی ÚæÑÊیŸ Ìæ ÊãÀÇÑی ÔÊ Óÿ ÀیŸ یÀ ÓÈ ÚæÑÊیŸ Êã Ñ ÍÑÇã ÀیŸ ÇæÑ Ïæ ÈÀäæŸ ˜æ (Çی˜ ä˜ÇÍ ãیŸ) ǘªŠÇ ˜ÑäÇ ÍÑÇã Àÿ ãÑ Ìæ Àáÿ Àæ ˜Ç Èÿ Ô˜ Çááå ÈÎÔäÿ æÇáÇ ãÀÑÈÇä Àÿ

[Jalandhry] Êã Ñ ÊãÀÇÑی ãÇÆیŸ ÇæÑ ÈیŠیÇŸ ÇæÑ ÈÀäیŸ ÇæÑ ªæªیÇŸ ÇæÑ ÎÇáÇÆیŸ ÇæÑ ÈªÊیÌیÇŸ ÇæÑ ÈªÇäÌیÇŸ ÇæÑ æÀ ãÇÆیŸ ÌäÀæŸ äÿ Êã ˜æ ÏæϪ áÇیÇ Àæ ÇæÑ ÑÖÇÚی ÈÀäیŸ ÇæÑ ÓÇÓیŸ ÍÑÇã ˜Ñ Ïی Æی ÀیŸ ÇæÑ Ìä ÚæÑÊæŸ Óÿ Êã ãÈÇÔÑÊ ˜Ñ ˜ÿ Àæ Çä ˜ی ᚘیÇŸ ÌäÀیŸ Êã ÑæÑÔ ˜ÑÊÿ (Àæ æÀ Ȫی Êã Ñ ÍÑÇã ÀیŸ) ÀÇŸ ÇÑ Çä ˜ÿ ÓÇʪ Êã äÿ ãÈÇÔÑÊ äÀ ˜ی Àæ Êæ (Çä ˜ی ᚘیæŸ ˜ÿ ÓÇʪ ä˜ÇÍ ˜Ñ áیäÿ ãیŸ) Êã Ñ ˜ª äÇÀ äÀیŸ ÇæÑ ÊãÀÇÑÿ ÕáÈی ÈیŠæŸ ˜ی ÚæÑÊیŸ Ȫی ÇæÑ Ïæ ÈÀäæŸ ˜Ç ǘŠªÇ ˜ÑäÇ Èªی (ÍÑÇã Àÿ) ãÑ Ìæ Àæ ˜Ç (Óæ Àæ ˜Ç) Èÿ Ô˜ ÎÏÇ ÈÎÔäÿ æÇáÇ (ÇæÑ) ÑÍã ˜Ñäÿ æÇáÇ Àÿ

[Yusuf Ali] Prohibited to you (for marriage) are:― your mothers, daughters, sisters, father's sisters, mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters, foster-mothers (who gave you suck) foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,―no prohibition if ye have not gone in,― (those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Mohsin Khan] Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allâh is Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Pickthal] Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

[shakir] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

i dont get as to why u mentioned it ?

are u trying to say that a marriage of syed girl is not mentioned?

but if u say that then we see that these are the women forbidden:-

1-mother

2-daughter

3-sister

4-father sister

5-mother sister

6-brother daughter

7-sister daughter

8-foster mother and sister

9-mom in law

10-step daughter

11-wives of son

12-marrying two sister

this is all i could find

now do u find

1-grand mother

2-grand daughter

it is not there

then if u read fiqh , u ll find there are plenty of other women who are also forbidden like if a man gets sexual relation with another man, of course it is haram, then he can not marry his sister......

this is also not there in this verse

so if u r trying to prove that syed girl is not mentioned here

u may be a bit mistaken

i just explained it as some people do quoted this verse to prove the ahadeeth,, which mention the sort of illegality of syed girl marriage with non syed ,, wrong by assuming that well this is not mentioned here in this verse

so if someone now thinks so , i dont know what would he say about marrying grand daughter and grand mom?

Why is this mainly an issue in the Pakistani/Indian communities? Just asking, this seems to be what I have observed. I don't see the point of it all.

this is a news for me that sheikh sadooq belonged to pakistani/indian community :!!!:

read what he had in written in his book AITAQADAT in my last post..........

and if u read montahi-ul-amaal , by sheikh abbas qummi u find that daughters of imam musa also did not marry...

and almost the same indian mentality was shown by an arab , hadrat esa bin zaid bin imam zainulabideen........

i am not saying that what he did was correct or not........

but atleast it shows that what was prevalent in those times......

do read the hadeeth of imam jafar from kafi , chapter of ikfa , which is mentioned in the article which i have given link to....

[Nocturne]

i dont get as to why u mentioned it ?

are u trying to say that a marriage of syed girl is not mentioned?

Yes

but if u say that then we see that these are the women forbidden:-

1-mother

2-daughter

3-sister

4-father sister

5-mother sister

6-brother daughter

7-sister daughter

8-foster mother and sister

9-mom in law

10-step daughter

11-wives of son

12-marrying two sister

this is all i could find

now do u find

1-grand mother

2-grand daughter

it is not there

haha - mother is mentioned here you know - this means GRAND mother too who happens to be mother of mother. Same goes for daughter.

then if u read fiqh , u ll find there are plenty of other women who are also forbidden like if a man gets sexual relation with another man, of course it is haram, then he can not marry his sister......

this is also not there in this verse

so if u r trying to prove that syed girl is not mentioned here

u may be a bit mistaken

I see, so you do believe in Fiqh? Then here is what a great expert in Fiqh of present time has to say:

http://www.al-islam.org/laws/marriage1.html#2393

No mention of Non-Syed marriage with Syeda prohibited and

Question: Can a Sayyid girl marry a non-Sayyid man?

Answer: It is permissible and there is no objection to it.

from here: http://sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&a...id=0&page=2

---

But wait... your PDF says "such marriages have not generally been approved by our community and have not been performed, as a standard practice, or else Fatwa would have not been required."

A Fatwa was required because our Pakistani/Desi community has been saying it's not allowed.

[Nocturne]

all i said was that as we find in man la yahdaral faqih , there is a hadeeth which even shiekh sadooq quoted in his book

AITAQADAT , which says that syed is kufv for syed , and i said that Allah says in surat al hajjarat that i have made this family system(which u guys consider a hindu system) so that u can recognize each other

so atleast i can recognize i syed

So does this family system mean that a person from one tribe should not marry a person from another tribe?

but the interesting thing is that when u guys say that we will judge by eman......and marry on this basis

as the op said

so i replied

ok

if it is in quran

we will go ahead , but tell me the way of judging it ,,,,

is there any EMANOMETER available in iraq or iran ????

u may consider a person momin while he may actually be the greatest monafiq of all times and because of his greatness in nifaq , people might be considering him momin......

The way of judging it is by knowing that person and looking at his actions and asking people about him. No one here can know what's in the heart of a person. If we go by your emanometer theory then no one should be marrying since we can't read the hearts.

---

Anyway - I suppose you go by this too: "there is no evidence of Ijtihad or necessity of Taqleed." mentioned on the PDF website. I won't waste more of your time here then :).

Edited February 7, 2009 by Nocturne

[toocoool66]

assalamoallikom

haha - mother is mentioned here you know - this means GRAND mother too who happens to be mother of mother. Same goes for daughter.

come on dont do this

mother in arabic=OMM

maternal grand mother= JADDATUN FASIDA

paterna grand mother=JADDA

I see, so you do believe in Fiqh? Then here is what a great expert in Fiqh of present time has to say:

I do believe in the saying of masoomen.....

and never quote fatwas if u r not sure if the other person is uooli or not

so i would request u to bring me any saying of masoomen

where a person has come to imam and said that i m a good momin and please marry your daughter to me and imam has replied in positive

of course u would find imam jafar saying in chapter of ikfa in furo kafi , that

the hasb , nasb and kufv of your lie in your family , Allah has forbidden sadaka on us and we do not share this honor...

(sort of pakistani / indian attitude as u call it)

let me see if you can bring me a hadeeth like what i called for

A Fatwa was required because our Pakistani/Desi community has been saying it's not allowed.

fatwas can never be given in matter of aitaqad or beliefs

they are in furo dear

read what sudooq said

it is a matter of belief as per sadooq

[iraqi_shia]

I thought islam was supposed to stop all the cultural backwardness?

give up on your culture and go with islam.

[Jondab_Azdi]

assalamoallaikom

is this answer to my question ......

all i said was that as we find in man la yahdaral faqih , there is a hadeeth which even shiekh sadooq quoted in his book

AITAQADAT , which says that syed is kufv for syed , and i said that Allah says in surat al hajjarat that i have made this family system(which u guys consider a hindu system) so that u can recognize each other

so atleast i can recognize i syed

and as per sadooq , syed is kufv for syed

Which hadith in Man la yadharul Faqih says that 'syed is kufv for syed'?

Is there any hadith which explicitly says that it is haram for a syed to marry non-syed?

Why are you ignoring hadith No. 4385 in Man la Yadharul Faqih, which clearly says that believers are kufv for each other and 4386 which defines kufv as 'chaste'?

w/s

Edited February 7, 2009 by Jondab_Azdi

[nastynas]

æóáÇó ÊóäßöÍõæÇú ãóÇ äóßóÍó ÂÈóÇÄõßõã ãøöäó ÇáäøöÓóÇÁ ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÓóáóÝó Åöäøóåõ ßóÇäó ÝóÇÍöÔóÉð æóãóÞúÊðÇ æóÓóÇÁ ÓóÈöíáÇð

[shakir 4:22] And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.

ÍõÑøöãóÊú Úóáóíúßõãú ÃõãøóåóÇÊõßõãú æóÈóäóÇÊõßõãú æóÃóÎóæóÇÊõßõãú æóÚóãøóÇÊõßõãú æóÎóÇáÇóÊõßõãú æóÈóäóÇÊõ ÇáÃóÎö æóÈóäóÇÊõ ÇáÃõÎúÊö æóÃõãøóåóÇÊõßõãõ ÇááÇøóÊöí ÃóÑúÖóÚúäóßõãú æóÃóÎóæóÇÊõßõã ãøöäó ÇáÑøóÖóÇÚóÉö æóÃõãøóåóÇÊõ äöÓóÂÆößõãú æóÑóÈóÇÆöÈõßõãõ ÇááÇøóÊöí Ýöí ÍõÌõæÑößõã ãøöä äøöÓóÂÆößõãõ ÇááÇøóÊöí ÏóÎóáúÊõã Èöåöäøó ÝóÅöä áøóãú ÊóßõæäõæÇú ÏóÎóáúÊõã Èöåöäøó ÝóáÇó ÌõäóÇÍó Úóáóíúßõãú æóÍóáÇóÆöáõ ÃóÈúäóÇÆößõãõ ÇáøóÐöíäó ãöäú ÃóÕúáÇóÈößõãú æóÃóä ÊóÌúãóÚõæÇú Èóíúäó ÇáÃõÎúÊóíúäö ÅóáÇøó ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÓóáóÝó Åöäøó Çááøåó ßóÇäó ÛóÝõæÑðÇ ÑøóÍöíãðÇ

[shakir 4:23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Asalam,

If I am not mistaken, Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 24

Allah (swt) has used the word istimta'tum, which is the verbal form of the word Mut'ah. So if that latter verse is refering to Mutah then surely the above verses are also relating to that?

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

[nastynas]

(bismillah)

3. Wouldn't it be okay for her to give up HER blood-line if thats the issue, if she HAS to, as there's no threat to the bloodline going extinct ALHAMDULILLAH, rather than living a rather NuN-ish life? Or is it Zaidis only practicing it this rigidly???

Imam Musa Kazim (as) had 21 daughters that all remained unmarried as per the will of the Imam (as) as there was no (Kufv) to marry as stated in the book

(The history of Ibn-E-Wazih Yazoobi, volume 2, page 415) published in Qum) and (montahi-ul-amaal , by sheikh abbas qummi).

Plenty of companions of the Imams (as) were pious to a very high level yet the Imams (as) never gave them their daughters hands in marriage. They were only married 'in' or left unmarried rather than married to a non-syed.

Hope that helps? (Waiting for jondab to discredit this Ahadeeth) lol. :yaali:

[Jondab_Azdi]

Imam Musa Kazim (as) had 21 daughters that all remained unmarried as per the will of the Imam (as) as there was no (Kufv) to marry as stated in the book

(The history of Ibn-E-Wazih Yazoobi, volume 2, page 415) published in Qum) and (montahi-ul-amaal , by sheikh abbas qummi).

Plenty of companions of the Imams (as) were pious to a very high level yet the Imams (as) never gave them their daughters hands in marriage. They were only married 'in' or left unmarried rather than married to a non-syed.

This has been discussed before. See this post: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1360457

and this post:

1- If Imam Musa Kazim a.s never found anyone suitable for Masooma e Qum a.s, he didn't get her married. Simple as that! He never mentioned he is not marrying her for Syedah-Non Syed reasons which people give with Qiyas and conjecture today! Besides, she was 18 years old when she was martyred!

2- Imam Musa Kazim a.s spent a large part of his later life in Jail of Harun Rashid. Circumstances of Imams and the enmity towards them and their families was well known and without taking these factors into consideration blind remarks should be avoided!

3- The Qiyasi camp which uses these arguments to justify the ban of marriage of syedah with non syed say: Was there no man available in non syeds who was pious for daughters of Imam Musa Kazim a.s? If this was allowed? We counter challenge them by saying their argument is falsehood because we can also ask: WAS THERE NO SINGLE MAN in the entire BANU HASHIM to marry these women?!

4- Late Ayatollah Imam Shirazi r.a said that daughters of Imam Musa Kazim a.s remained unmarried because they were young and the Imam and his family suffered through extra ordinary persecution and muflisi / poverty.

5- In Oyyun-e-Akhbar-ir-Ridha Shaykh alSadooq (ar) has quoted Imam Moosa Kadhim that when Haroon al-Rasheed asked him that why all of his daughters are unmarried, Imam replied: because of poverty

6- To prove that an Imam From Ahlulbayt a.s married his daughter to a Non Sayyed we will give example of Imam Hasan a.s who married his daughter to Amr b. Al-Mundhir b. Al-Zubayr b. Al-Awwam? We have also shown the reference for this earlier.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1607377

w/s

[Candela]

This topic would be extremely interesting and fulfilling if I was a dead zombie too.

Ws

[BintAlHoda]

Perhaps her challenge is not just finding a syed guy but a 'suitable' syed guy. There are tons of unmarried syed fellows and all she has to do is search Shiamatch.Com and click 'syed'. Heck, there's even a website called 'syedmatch'.

However, if 'syed' is her #1 criterion, then she has to go easy on the other criteria. Like, for some people, money is #1, so then everything else has to be #2. Same here. If someone's #1 spouse criteria is 'syed' (or any other ethnic/ancestral designation), then sometimes u have to let stuff go. Basically, decide on what is most important to u.

Of course, I do also think that marriage is becoming increasingly difficult in today's world. It seems like commitment and family values are becoming old fashioned. It is possible that she is being 'too picky' by requiring a 'suitable syed' guy... but it's possible that if she opened up to the world of 'non syed guys', she might still have a hard time finding a spouse, especially since she is now competing with teenagers for the same men.

Anyway I wish the best for her and all u can do is pray for people's futures andhappiness sometimes

[deNOVO]

Wallahu alam. Syed like to remain virgin than marrying non-syed. My friend's parents are having the same in mind. They do not allow their Syed Shamsi son to marry a non-syed girl. This has given rise to many social problems.

GOOD one Brother - THAT IS what EXACTLY left me wondering till date: i mean.... die virgin but NOT TO MARRY A NON-SYED???? errr..... wudn't that be carrying it too far, for a common muslim who ain't exactly practicing suffism or the sort????

Edited February 7, 2009 by deNOVO

[toocoool66]

assalamoallaikom

Which hadith in Man la yadharul Faqih says that 'syed is kufv for syed'?

from man la yadharul faqih , book of nikah , chapter TO BE KUFV AND EQUAL TO GET MARRIED, hadeeth number 4384

holy prophet looked towards children of ali and jafar and said

our sons are for our daughters and our daughters for our sons

EXPLANATION OF THIS HADEETH BY SHEIKH SADOOQ :-

from AITAQADAT , SHEIKH SADOOQ , urdu page 115

“Our belief about progeny of hadrat ali is that they are the Prophet’s descendants (children/progeny). Their Mawaddat is obligatory because this the Ajar – E – Rasaalat, and Sadaqah is prohibited on them being the cleansing part of (dirt) their Maal, except for their own amongst themselves, and they are ‘kufv’ of each other. This is due to the Prophet pbuh.gif where he said on looking at the children of Ali and Jaffar – E – Tayyar that, OUR daughters are the equals of OUR sons and OUR sons of OUR daughters”.

Why are you ignoring hadith No. 4385 in Man la Yadharul Faqih, which clearly says that believers are kufv for each other and 4386 which defines kufv as 'chaste'?

i thought that u r not aware of the hadeeth 4384, but sorry

u actually knew that it is just your love for sadaat .......that you are ignoring that

but please do remember

read quran and u will never find any verse which state that dont give zakat to sadaat

my dear , u will find plenty of verses which state give zakat to the deserving though

at the most what u can say is that one should not give zakat to ahlubait as per quran as Allah has kept away rijis for them

similarly u ll find ahadeeth which mention that u should give zakat to momineen and it will not be mentioned dont give to sadaat, though there are ahadeeth which say so

similarly

in quran in almost all the verses say that no one has ilm-e-ghayb except Allah

there is only one verse i think, from surat al jin which mention that there is a prophet as well

so what i want to say is once an exclusion is mentioned , it is not going to be repeated

you love sadaat so much and are paying the ajar-e-risalat in such a nice way

that u read hadeeth 4385 and 4386 and just multiplied hadeeth 4384 by zero

i m feeling sorry for you brother

and i m sorry if u r feeling hurt

but do think about what u have actually done........

sorry this i forgot

Is there any hadith which explicitly says that it is haram for a syed to marry non-syed?

tell u what

i mean at this time i m truly feeling sad

after seeing this attitude but anyways

everyone is free

i m quoting from the article which i have given link to

FINAL ‘ZARB-E-HAIDERY’

As is previously mentioned the following tradition is referred to in Furooh – e – Kafi volume 5, Bihar – Al – Anwar, Ad – Damatus – Sakiba by Agha Baqar Dahdashti Bahbani Najfi Volume 2, page 544 Urdu and Rasoom – Ush – Sharayya Fi Mizan Asharayya by Mohammed Hasnain Sabqi Najfi etc.

This is quoted here-under for final analysis. Imam As -Sadiq was approached by a Khawarij and asked the hand of Syedani and Imam replied:-

“Your ‘‘kufv’ is in your own blood, your own ‘Hasab’ and your own people (Qoum - Þæã ) and

positively Allah has kept Sadaqah away from us which is the dirt of the hands of people (in

general) and we hate/dislike to include in that superiority/virtue given to us by Allah ,

someone for whom Allah has not given the virtue/superiority that he has laid down for

us”.

COMMENTS/ANALYSIS

In above tradition the matter is left to no doubt. The marriage of Syedani with Non-Syed is Haram beyond doubt. A few inferences are quoted below:-

a)

Imam As – Sadiq’s year of Shahada is 148 AH, the tradition shows that up to that time they hated such a request and thus always refused such approaches.

B)

Since it is said by Imam it cannot be differed with by any Imam before and after. In fact it certifies their agreement that all hated the marriage of Syedani with Non-Syed as did prophet (pbuh).

c)

Imam (as) should not have said that in opposition of Allah and HIS messenger , hence Allah and prophet also hated such an act.

d)

This tradition rejects all the false historical incident of Syedanis marriage with non-Syeds as tradition takes precedence over history or otherwise it becomes almost impossible even to prove beyond doubt the Imamate of Masoomeen from history.

e)

Imam has given the conditions of Syedani’s marriage and are:-

(i)

Dynasty/Clan should be the same.

(ii)

Qualities should be the same. References may be made to the verses; verse 22 Sura 3; Verse 61, Sura 3 and other verses given in the opening pages. Without those qualities there is no ‘kufv’ ; hence Syedani cannot marry anyone other than Syed. Those choices are by Allah and cannot be ever changed.

(iii)

Blood should be same. This condition is absolutely impossible to be achieved by a non-Syed, however some imposters do claim to be Syeds without their mothers being married to Syeds and then taking birth from the seed of a Syed. Such a claim is a false accusation on their mothers and Prophet has made his curse on those who change their descent on false pretext.

(iv)

Sadaqah should be ‘Haram’ on those who qualify for marriage with Syedani. It is not said that those who eat Sadaqah but Sadaqah should be Halal for them whether or not they eat it. This also applies on all the ‘Umma’.

f)

Imam (as) has clearly laid down two groups:-

i) Those on whom ‘Sadaqah’ is Haram.

ii) Those on whom ‘Sadaqah’ is Halal.

Hence Halal and Haram should not be mixed, if mixed even Halal will become Haram.

Two classes are also proved under the Quranic verses in the opening pages.

g)

Imam (as) has used word ‘Naa’ US/WE, on whom Sadaqah is Haram. Again please refer to verses for US/WE in the opening pages. In this context of Sadaqah Prophet (pbuh) has always used words ‘US’ in all the traditions. Please refer all the books of traditions compiled by Sunnis or Shia’s alike.

h)

One may try to claim only one qualification included in the above tradition but one is required to poses all of them- which is impossible for Non-Syeds.

OBJECTION TO OUR ABOVE DISCUSSION

Some Ulema have objected to this by saying that this tradition by Imam was in reply to the questioner who was a Kharjee, hence it applies to Kharjees and not the others, the marriage of Syedani therefore is not objectionable with a non-Syed.

OUR REPLY

The above objection is very weak having no basis at all, there are many flaws which can be easily identified from the above comments, some of those are presented below:-

a)

Imam did not say for once that ‘you’ are Kharji therefore.

B)

Imam laid down the conditions and qualifications to be fulfilled before asking the hand of Syedanis, which can be fulfilled only by Syeds and none else.

c)

If we consider it was for Kharjee only, then we will have to apply the same principle on the Imam debates with Christians, Jews, Majoos, and Zindeeqs etc, about Towhead etc. While applying that principle the debates will not be HUJJAT for the muslim Umma. This will be absurdidity / ‘KUFR’ of first degree and applies to the above objection. NO Muslim of a slight fragment of Emaan, wisdom and vision can make such an objection.

FINAL WORDS/

We have not gone into lengthy details and have provided concise material in nutshell for the respected readers, leaving a lot to their own judgement. However final conclusion is reiterated here:-

If women from ‘YOU’ coming to ‘US’ cannot go back from ‘US’ to ‘YOU’, then how can ‘OURS’ go from ‘US’ to ‘YOU’. More so when they are ‘Most Haraam’.

Warning is that – Do not stay in the OPPOSITE CAMP OF Allah (SWT), RASOOL (as) IMAMS (as) AND THEIR IN JUNCTIONS BY SUPPORTING THE MARRYING SYEDANI WITH A NON – SYED.

Wa – Salat – o – Wa – Salamo Ala Mohammadin Wa Aalayh – Ittayabeen Uttahireen. Wal Hamdo Lillahai Rabbil Aalameen.

anyways my humble request to all you brothers and sisters would be

that you all are free

and you can do whatever u feel like

no one can force anyone

as it is there in quran

but in this hour of ghaybat of our imam

dont do things which are not clear

for if you are wrong

then it is not going to be good for you

this world is not the entire thing

we have to die

so better pray for the early return of our imam

though after seeing this attitude , i m feeling very bad

but

after all

as it is said

every one is free

and will pay for his deeds

may Allah give me the strength to serve masoomen

amin

[BabyBeaverIsAKit]

^That is exactly the type of stuff Islam came to eradicate.

[nastynas]

This has been discussed before. See this post: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1360457

w/s

The only dispute I saw there was whether the number of daughters is 18 or 21, which is wholly irrelevant to the issue being discussed.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

^That is exactly the type of stuff Islam came to eradicate.

Is that right?

[SayYaAli]

It's a matter of choice. If a syeda girl does not want to marry a non-syed...Fine. Whatever. She has a right to marry whoever she wants and to die unmarried if she chooses.

If she does want to marry a syed and cannot find one, then finds a non-syed dude she might be compelled to change her mind...what's the big deal?

All the Ayatullah types say that syedas should marry syeds PREFERENTIALLY. But there's no COMPULSION.

Ayatullah Sistani (as someone posted) said there's no problem with it.

Islam came to make things easy.

Those who reject the rulings of scholars in favour of cultural prejudices, what be done about them? It's like when Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) changed the direction of Namaz to the Qiblah and some of the Muslims were astounded and didn't want to accept. HELLO? It's not about how you feel and where your personal whims lie, it's what Islam says.

EDIT:

I'm sorry if anyone finds it offensive. But I'm amazed that people would obsess about this sort of thing to the point of staying unmarried forever, or to condemn others to stay umarried forever.

And Allah knows best.

Edited February 8, 2009 by SayYaAli

[deNOVO]

It's like when Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) changed the direction of Namaz to the Qiblah and some of the Muslims were astounded and didn't want to accept. HELLO? It's not about how you feel and where your personal whims lie, it's what Islam says.

Great example .... ! thats the whole thing: a personal choice, people choosing watever they want to, YOU like it or not but THEY like it for sure: preference and trying for a Syed, is okay too, at least to me personally ... but compulsions,hmmmm.... THAT IS wat we r discussing here ... changes the whole perspective. one needs to be crystal clear about it!!!

Edited February 8, 2009 by deNOVO

[toocoool66]

assalamoallaikom

may Allah bless u sayyayaali

i mean u hit the bottom line , to say the least when u said this

It's not about how you feel and where your personal whims lie, it's what Islam says.

u see i have been saying the same thing from the begining

that if u guys have a hadeeth which states something like

a person coming to imam and telling him that o imam i m a momin and just check my zahir , it is also good

so marry me to a girl from your family , and imam saying in reply, wow , u r so right , this is what it is

so u see we have to accept then

no one can say no

but the problem is that we find narrations (though these guys are trying to misinterpret them ) see my last post )

which prove the contrary

I'm sorry if anyone finds it offensive. But I'm amazed that people would obsess about this sort of thing to the point of staying unmarried forever, or to condemn others to stay umarried forever.

yes u r right , no one should condemn anyone

but of course one should share knowledge so that the other person should not err

but if he or she thinks the other way round , then every one is free

let me gift something more on this topic , may be u guys like it

it is from the famous site, answering-ansar and it goes like this(though it does not deal with this topic , but they are saying what i have been saying, so i thought to share , rest every one is free)

Reply twenty fifth - Sayyida Zeyneb (as)'s strict interpretation of kuff could not have been maintained if her sister had married Umar

For this section we shall rely on both Sunni and Shi'a sources:

Shi'a References:

1. Munthahil Aamaal, Volume 1 pages 432 - 433 (Iran)Shaykh Abbas Qummi

2. Nufs'ul Mahamoon page 447 (Iran)

3. Majalis page 31 by Shaykh Saduq Amali

4. Rozhathul Waizoon page 164

Sunni references:

1. Tarikh Kamil, Volume 4 page 35

2. Tarikh Tabari Volume 19 page 171 (English translation by I.K.A Howard)

All the above sources record this event similarly, we are quoting from Tabari, where one of Imam 'Ali (as)'s daughters narrates the suffering of the women of Ahl'ul bayt (as) when they were presented before Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah Yazid ibn Mu'awiya:

"Then a Syrian with a red face stood up before Yazid and said, 'Commander of the Faithful, give me this one'. He meant me. I was a pretty young girl. I shuddered and moved away, for I though that that would be allowed them. I caught hold of the skirt of my sister Zaynab. My sister Zaynab was older and cleverer than I. She said that that would not happen. She said to the Syrian, "By God! You are a liar! You are too lowly born! Such a thing is not for you, not for him!' Yazid cried out angrily, 'By God! You are a liar! That is for me. If I wish to do it I can do it'. She retorted, 'No by God! God would only let you do that if you left our faith and professed belief in another religion".

So here the reference makes it clear that:

* The cursed Syrian wanted to marry one of Imam 'Ali (as)'s daughters

* Sayyida Zeyneb (as) says that this could not be possible as he was lowly born (i.e. Not her kuff)

* Sayyida Zeyneb stated that one who entered into such an action was a kaffir.

Hanafi scholar Mufti Ghulam Rasul commenting on this event states:

"This incident serves as proof that a Sayyida cannot be the kuff of a non Sayyid. This is why Sayyida Zeyneb said to Yazeed the cursed 'You should have some respect, these are the daughters of Rasulullah (s), no one has the right to decide that this girl is for me. This is the Sunnah of Ahl'ul bayt, on the issue of kuff, if one even contemplates such a thing he is outside the pale of Islam"

Hasab aur Nasab Volume 2 page 186

Now our question to Afriki is simple, how could Sayyida Zeyneb (as) maintain this strict rigid stance on kuff if we are to indeed to accept your account that her younger sister married Umar? Why did not a single individual in Yazid's court intervene and seek to correct Sayyida Zeyneb (as) and point out that her claim was baseless as her sister Umme Kalthum (as) was the widow of Umar?

link:http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/umme_kulthum/en/chap8.php

sorry i forgot this one

Reply twenty fourth - Rasulullah (s) had stated that the daughters of his household were to marry within the Banu Hashim

Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah Ibn Hajr al Makki records in Sawaiqh al Muhriqa page160:

"Rasulullah (s) said, 'The women of household are reserved for the men of our household' we can conclude from this hadith that that the kuff of Banu Hashim is not a non-Hashmi".

This hadith is even more explicit in Shi'a references, where Rasulullah (s) had made a specific reference to the daughters of Sayyida Fatima (as), Shaykh Saduq narrates the following hadith in 'Mun la yuzul Faqih, Volume 3 page 249':

"Rasulullah (s) looked at the family of Ja'far Tayyar and Muhammad bin Ja'far Tayyar, and then looked at Hasan, Hussain, Zaynab and Kalthum and said 'Our daughters are for our sons and our sons are for our daughters'.

This hadith demonstrates that Rasulullah (s) had restricted marriage of his grand daughter (s) in his family. Rasulullah (s) clearly deemed the kuff of his daughter (s) to be restricted to his relatives. This being the case then how can it be believed that Imam 'Ali (as) would blatantly disregard the words of Rasulullah (s) and marry Umme Kalthum (as) to Umar who was non Hashmi and not even remotely her equivalent in marriage? Of interest if the fact that Ibn Qutaybah in al Maarif page 70 states:

"All of the daughters of Hadhrath 'Ali were married into the sons of Hadhrath Aqeel and Hadhrath Abbas, with the exception of Umm'ul Hasan and Fatima".

Why did Ibn Qutaybah fail to mention Umme Kalthum here?

of course link is important:http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/umme_kulthum/en/chap8.php

this may also help

Fifth Objection - Umar was not the kuff (equivalent) of Umme Kalthum (as), which makes the putative existence of this marriage as untenable

As proof we shall cite the following two major texts of Ahl'ul Sunnah:

1. Sawaiqh al Muhriqa page 95 by Ibn Hajar al Makki

2. Nur al Absar page 21

We read in Sawaiqh as follows:

"A distinguishing feature of Rasulullah (s) is that he is the father of Fatima's descendants. The descendants of Fatima are his children. For a man or woman, marriage based on kuff (equivalent) is a necessity. A kuff for the descendants of Fatima is compulsory; a pious Hashmi cannot marry a non Hashmi".

To expand on the term 'pious' in this context we shall cite Ahsaaf al Ghaneen page 121:

"A particular characteristic bestowed upon the descendants of Fatima is piety. Suyuti wrote in Risala Zeynebia:

'�during the old days every pious person referred to (came from) the family of the Fatima whether they were Hasani or Husayni (descendants of Imam Hasan (as) or Imam Husain (as).'"

From Sawaiqh it is clear that, in the eyes of Ahl'ul Sunnah, a female descendant of Fatima can only marry a male descendant of Fatima.

Hanafi scholar Mufti Ghulam Rasul expands on this matter further, relying on the fatwas of classical Sunni Ulema in his book Hasab aur Nasab Volume 2 pages 188-190:

"Marriage between a Sayyid woman and a non Sayyid man is batil (false) on the basis that Nikah to a non kuff (equivalent) is not permitted. When the cornerstone of marriage is kuff then the marriage between a Sayyid female and non Sayyid man cannot be achieved since Sayyid women are the descendants of Rasulullah (s), and hence their equivalents can only be another one of Rasulullah's descendants. This was the opinion of Allamah Yusuf Nabhani (d. 1350 Hijri) in al Sharaf al Muhbad page 39.

Al Hafidh Jalaladeen Suyuti stated in Khasais al Kubra that 'One of the distinctions of the descendants of Rasulullah (s) is that no one else can be their kuff. Ibn Hajr al Makki (d. 974 Hijri) states 'One distinction of Rasulullah (s) is that his daughter's descendants are linked to him. As no one is the kuff to Rasulullah (s) the only kuff to his descendants can be those from his daughters lineage, which is why even one of Abbaside lineage cannot be the kuff of a female descendant of Fatima, despite the fact that they are both of Hashmi descent (Fatawi Kabeera Volume 4 page 97)'. He also stated in Sawiqh al Muhriqa page 234 that 'Our scholars have concluded that these traditions serve as proof that a distinguishing feature of Rasulullah (s) is that he is the father of Fatima's descendants, their kuff is linked to him�to that point a pious (non Sayyid) Hashmi cannot be the kuff of his descendants. Other than Rasulullah (s)'s lineage the lineage of ALL other daughters is linked to their fathers, not their mothers'.

When no one can be counted as the kuff of Rasulullah's descendants then the Nikah of a Sayyidah to a non-kuff, does not meet the criterion of a valid Nikah. Hadhrath 'Umar stated 'I prohibit women marrying their non-kuff. Imam Muhammad narrates in al Thashar from Imam Abu Hanifah that 'I am opposed to a woman of good lineage marrying one that is not her kuff.' Shah Waliyullah also cited these words of 'Umar in Hujjul Balagha, Volume 2, page 94, and added:

'In light of these traditions there are no grounds to conclude that that the concept of kuff is unproven. The character of all manner of people is all linked to their kuff� people's kuff differs, the Shari'a does not ignore such matters, which is why 'Umar prohibited women from marrying those that were not their kuff�"

Marriage needs to be conducted on the basis of one's kuff. If a non Sayyid woman chooses to marry a non-kuff of her own accord then the foundation of that marriage is false. Allamah Abdul Rahman Hazarvi stated in Bagheeyatathul Mishtur Shahdeen, page 94:

'If a pious Sayyid woman declares marriage to a non Sayyid, I do not deem such a marriage to be correct, even if the wali and the Sayyid woman are happy since marriage can only be conducted on the basis of kuff.'

The marriage between a Sayyid woman and a non Sayyid man in all circumstances is unacceptable, since this constitutes disrespect of Ahl'ul bayt, and this is not permissible under the Shari'a, on the contrary it is binding upon us to afford them respect and protection."

Hasab aur Nasab Volume 2 pages 188-189

Hasab aur Nasab Volume 2 pages 190

Mufti Ghulam Rasul proceeds to cite further Sunni Fatwas on this issue in Hasab aur Nasab, Volume 3, page 123:

"Allamah Shahrani (d. 973 Hijri) stated:

'No one can be the kuff of the Ahl'ul bayt when it comes to marriage. Ahl incorporates all the descendants of Rasulullah (s) until the Day of Judgement [Kushuf al Ghimma Volume 2 page 42]�.'

So when they have no kuff until the Day of Judgement, if a Sayyida woman marries with a non kuff, this marriage is devoid of kuff, and is not acceptable. That is why the Ulema have issued edicts concerning Sayyids.

The Shaafi Ulema have stated that the descendents of Sayyida Fatima are linked to Rasulullah (s) they share one another's characteristics and rules of kuff apply to them. In marriage they both are kuff of one another. If the girl is Sayyid and the boy is not then a Nikah cannot take place, since a non Sayyid is not the kuff of a Sayyid woman. This is because the Sayyida woman is linked to Rasulullah (s) whilst the non Sayyid male is not. The closeness to Rasulullah (s) is not shared by both�.

That is why Allamah Sayyid Shahabadeen in 'Rashafath al Sari, page 74' stated:

'Whether we are Hasani or Husayni in ancestry we only marry our daughters with those of a pious noble lineage, it is not permissible for us to marry them to a non-Sayyid.'

Mehr 'Ali Shah (ra) stated that the Nikah (marriage contract) between a Sayyid woman and a non Sayyid man is not permissible, and there is a broad agreement amongst the Ulema on this point, since such a Nikah would be with a non kuff, hence its duty on the Ulema of Islam to deem such a Nikah to be unlawful. (Fatwa Siraya page 134)

Hasab aur Nasab, Volume 3, page 123

Our objection is that Umar was NOT Ahl'ul bayt (as). So no descendant of the Holy prophet (saws) could have contracted a marriage with him, since the Ahl'ul Sunnah themselves accept that he was not the kuff of Umme Kalthum (as).

link: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/umm...um/en/chap3.php

anyways

as u say

we should see what iama have told us

and act on that

ya ali madad

[Guest]

I don't understand how a marriage can be based on factors that one can't control.

[asma0401]

there's nothing wrong with a woman wanting her children to be descendants of the Prophets. What about khums? Zakat is paid to non-Syed and khums to Syed. That doesn't mean you shouldn't marry non-syed, but there's nothing wrong with preferring to be a part of the blood line of the Prophets.

[Guest]

there's nothing wrong with a woman wanting her children to be descendants of the Prophets. What about khums? Zakat is paid to non-Syed and khums to Syed. That doesn't mean you shouldn't marry non-syed, but there's nothing wrong with preferring to be a part of the blood line of the Prophets.

No, there's nothing wrong with having marital preferences. However, when it reaches the point of a woman in her 30's still not being married because of this issue, than the priorities and expectations need to change and sent to the bare minimum, which is simply to find someone who is a good believer.

Marrying a good believer is the bare minimum. Everything else is just icing on the cake. The older people get, the less flexibility they get on these issues, because then they have to compete with the younger people.

[OneNoteSong]

there's nothing wrong with a woman wanting her children to be descendants of the Prophets. What about khums? Zakat is paid to non-Syed and khums to Syed. That doesn't mean you shouldn't marry non-syed, but there's nothing wrong with preferring to be a part of the blood line of the Prophets.

But the woman is a Syed, so wouldn't her children be descendants of the Prophet regardless of who she married? Just because a lady marries doesn't mean she renounces her ancestors, and her ancestors become her kids' ancestors.