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Musa

how to prove to a christian.....?

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How would you prove to a christian that there are changes in the bible.

Many of them argue that words are changed because one word can have different meanings... and that is why there are so many versions of them... or they also argue that only synonyms are used to replace words and that the meaning is still the same.

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I will tell you that u should not start off with trying to prove tahreef of the bible, but prove islam through the bible first, than after you have done that, prove tahreef.

I am a convert from christianity, and this is the best way. (otherwise they will question why you are trying to prove islam through a text you feel is false)

also, there are some things in the bible that most muslims want to call tahreef yet are only misundrstanding misinterpretations of the words. you must better explain what is misunderstood rather than call it false.

Edited by zainab_

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Christians hear from Muslims all the time that our Bible has been "corrupted," or tampered with. We don't want to live our daily lives in discord and strife, so when people go down this road, very often we will hear the person, but not listen to them. It really makes no difference to our faith or beliefs.

Then we hear something like this and we are encouraged:

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Christians hear from Muslims all the time that our Bible has been "corrupted," or tampered with. We don't want to live our daily lives in discord and strife, so when people go down this road, very often we will hear the person, but not listen to them. It really makes no difference to our faith or beliefs.

Then we hear something like this and we are encouraged:

yeah but Nabi Jesus (as) did not die. but I understand how you feel.

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How would you prove to a christian that there are changes in the bible.

This best way is the priests confession

In Catholic encyclopedia is written :

IV. TRANSMISSION OF THE TEXT

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author--all have been in some way altered

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8427

The Protestant Biblical scholar Adam Clarcke said:

corruptions have taken place in the numbers of the historical books of the Old Testament than in any other part of the sacred records. To attempt to reconcile them in every part is lost labor; better at once acknowledge what cannot be successfully denied, that although the original writers of the Old Testament wrote under the influence of the Divine Spirit, yet we are not told that the same influence descended on all copiers of their words.

Adam Clarcke's commentry on the bible, page 335, look at 2s 24 : 9 (one volume edition)

I would like to scan the page for you, but I own the one-volume edition, unfortunately I cant enter it into the scanner due to it huge size.

This is a clear contradiction which not giving any chance for the Christians to deny the corruption in other than the numbers

Mark 6 : 8 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

And he commanded them that they should take nothing for the way, but a staff only: no scrip, no bread, nor money in their purse,

Luke 9 : 3 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

And he said to them: Take nothing for your journey; neither staff, nor scrip, nor bread, nor money; neither have two coats.

Does they took the staff with them ?

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I will tell you that u should not start off with trying to prove tahreef of the bible, but prove islam through the bible first, than after you have done that, prove tahreef.

I am a convert from christianity, and this is the best way. (otherwise they will question why you are trying to prove islam through a text you feel is false)

also, there are some things in the bible that most Muslims want to call tahreef yet are only misunderstanding misinterpretations of the words. you must better explain what is misunderstood rather than call it false.

How should i go on about that. Many of the Christians i talk to are very brainwashed.... the are good people but they still think all muslims are evil. I try to teach them with my aklaqh and i think it has helped, but i still get the feeling that they think that the majority of muslims are bad. For instance... one of them asked me... " do all Christians hate Muslims"... it shocked me....

when dealing with people like this... should i still bring Islam up to them? or should i try to disprove the bible's purity?

On a side note... I was arguing with a christian ( one who was more educated than the others) about the new and old testament. and I showed them one of the verses where Jesus said that he did not come to change the law ( basically that Christians should follow the old testament as well).... and i also showed them the verse from Leviticus in the old testament and how it says pig is unclean to eat. They replied that the laws were for Jews because God was speaking to Moses and Arron and the people of Israel... how should i reply to that?because i thought ALL laws from the old testament should be followed by both Jews and Christians.

Edited by Musa

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How should i go on about that. Many of the Christians i talk to are very brainwashed.... the are good people but they still think all muslims are evil. I try to teach them with my aklaqh and i think it has helped, but i still get the feeling that they think that the majority of muslims are bad. For instance... one of them asked me... " do all Christians hate Muslims"... it shocked me....

when dealing with people like this... should i still bring Islam up to them? or should i try to disprove the bible's purity?

On a side note... I was arguing with a christian ( one who was more educated than the others) about the new and old testament. and I showed them one of the verses where Jesus said that he did not come to change the law ( basically that Christians should follow the old testament as well).... and i also showed them the verse from Leviticus in the old testament and how it says pig is unclean to eat. They replied that the laws were for Jews because God was speaking to Moses and Arron and the people of Israel... how should i reply to that?because i thought ALL laws from the old testament should be followed by both Jews and Christians.

reply to that by saying that the Prophet Jesus (as) came to the jews, as did the other prophets and remind him of this:

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

the He (as) said:

Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law and the prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo, but to complete and fulfill them.

For truly, I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] have been accomplished.

now, he will argue that this is only implying until the death of the Prophet Isa (as) but we can obviously see this is not the case because it says previously until the sky and earth pass away and perish, please note that.

so this says two things, the Prophet Isa (as) was sent to the children of isreal same as Moses (as) and nothing will change from the law until the day of judgement. period, not those words but we still have the earth and sky so the we should still have the law of Moses (as) he will argue from the side that all things being fulfilled means to the death of Jesus (as) but we know for a fact this is not the case because we still have the earth and sky, didnt loose those yet. that is how you argue it.

now when he brings up all the other verses that say go preach ye threfore to all nations, tell him this is a contradiction to the first verse I posted above which says ONLY to the lost sheep of isreal. but dont dwell too much on that just yet. this is the key argument for the Prophet Musa (as) because Jesus does not fulfill the biblical requirement for being the one like unto Moses (as) that will come for all peoples, but Muhammed (sawas) does. Here you will do a step by step comparison between Jesus and his message and Moses and his message and see that Jesus is nothing like who was foretold. if you like I can give you the rundown of this argument next. but dont worry too much about the whole tahreef thing, u can throw that in after the next argument if they are still christian.

and NO to the first question, they see you as a christian hating muslim out for blood, telling them their bible is a pack of lies wont help, lol not the way to get them to listen. just be nice and have the most perfect akhlaq you can imagine. be everything you can imagine the Imam (as) to have been, because when you tell them their god according to them is not omnipotent, (someone had to die in order to forgive people of their sins, obviously he then has limits and cannot do all things) suicidal (if he was god and was omnipotent then why did he hang on the cross and die, he had the power to stop it, also, he had the power to forgive people without the bloodshed so this is suicide, which is forbidden and punishable eternally) with multiple personality disorder (he talked to himself on the cross and asked himself why he had forsaken himself, if this is not a mental disorder I dont know what is, its either that or polytheism they can take their pick, but that is also a sin too) they will take it much better. :) my family still has no answer to that. but save this for last.

:) anything else?

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thanks for the help ( nice verses lol )

With the aqlaqh thing i try so hard sometimes... but then some of them say the most RETARDED things ever...

they say such horrible things with no proof... like "your quran says to kill everyone" . It is pretty easy to refute that argument... even if they bring up that verse in sura tawbah ( none of them have even looked at the qur'an so that would probably never happen)... but i just get angry sometimes when they say things like this, but i try to answer their question as best as possible. But inshallah ill try to follow your advice. - my little rant

as for help....

When should i bring up Islam or should i let them bring it up?

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thanks for the help ( nice verses lol )

With the aqlaqh thing i try so hard sometimes... but then some of them say the most RETARDED things ever...

they say such horrible things with no proof... like "your quran says to kill everyone" . It is pretty easy to refute that argument... even if they bring up that verse in sura tawbah ( none of them have even looked at the qur'an so that would probably never happen)... but i just get angry sometimes when they say things like this, but i try to answer their question as best as possible. But inshallah ill try to follow your advice. - my little rant

as for help....

When should i bring up Islam or should i let them bring it up?

generally speaking, make sure they know your muslim, then allow them to ask questions when they feel comfortable with you, this is the best way. if it is in the middle of a conversationtell thm you have to go pray now, they will ask and wonder why, or when you have to go pray, explain a little about it, and let them know its ok to ask questions if they feel like. Things of this nature. I have had people walk up to me in walmart and ask me why I wear hijab, and other various questions.

with me as it was before all the 9/11 stuff, I had never heard the word islam, so when she told me she was muslim I asked her what she believed, then I told her my beliefs, and she told me she knew what I believed and told me she believed in Jesus too. This suprised me, so I started asking questions about her faith.

now, after 9/11 there are the idiots who only know what they have heard on fox news, this makes more of a problem, but, some of those will ask, the ones who ask even if they are offensive questions at least they are asking and not accusing, those with closed minds are the ones who outright accuse, you will honestly never change them, so its best not to bother too much with them just answer what they said and walk away, also generally speaking those who will sit and preach to you about Jesus (as) well, they are the brainwashed and you will never convince them either, so its best not to waste too much time, trust me I have tried. just talk with the ones who ask, and answer them honestly, and whenever you can throw in an extra thing or two, but never be pushy or act like some kind of a preacher man. Most people are more attracted to muslims because unlike christianity you dont have the fools trying to convert you constantly, so it makes them more curious I think, and much less annoyed.

PS I know its hard, it is probably one of the hardest thing to do and not get angry and annoyed, but ask Moula a.s. for help, and do your best. its all we can do, also, try very hard not to laugh in their faces, this also is kind of difficult. once, I was in an elevator, and a man he asked me what all this was about and pointed to the headscarf, I assumed he was asking me my religion, (one would have thought) so I answered him that I was muslim, he goes "ohh I thought you were from that country!" it was everything I could do not to burst out in laughter! it was so bad I just go "uh huh" and got off the elevator next floor so I could find a bathroom and laugh! ha ha

khoda hafiz

Edited by zainab_

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HEY GUYS I AM A PROTESTANT AND NO ANTI CHRISTIANITY!! I am just here to impress my gfs sister by joining shia chat

CHEAP PEOPLE WHO R U TO TALK BOUT IZLAM OR CHRITISNITY

KORAN-------> BIBLE I RESPECT BOTH THE SAME

I have full rights to discuss both as I was born and raised baptist.

anyway, welsome to shiachat, please these are a good people, and not cheap. please refrain from insulting a people whom you do not know just to impress some girl. nice to meet u.

peace out

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How should i go on about that. Many of the Christians i talk to are very brainwashed.... the are good people but they still think all muslims are evil. I try to teach them with my aklaqh and i think it has helped, but i still get the feeling that they think that the majority of muslims are bad. For instance... one of them asked me... " do all Christians hate Muslims"... it shocked me....

when dealing with people like this... should i still bring Islam up to them? or should i try to disprove the bible's purity?

When dealing with people like this lead by example. It should not be so hard to prove to them you are not evil. If there is no compulsion in Islam then there is no need to prove anything.

If you want to be accepted by this group then focus on the similarities. Always keep it light. God will determine the time for serious convo.

On a side note... I was arguing with a christian ( one who was more educated than the others) about the new and old testament. and I showed them one of the verses where Jesus said that he did not come to change the law ( basically that Christians should follow the old testament as well).... and i also showed them the verse from Leviticus in the old testament and how it says pig is unclean to eat. They replied that the laws were for Jews because God was speaking to Moses and Arron and the people of Israel... how should i reply to that?because i thought ALL laws from the old testament should be followed by both Jews and Christians.

As I understand it, God gave Abraham 10 commandments. The Jews gave themselves 613, plus a few for being so pious. Jesus seemed to break Jewish law, yet came not to destroy the law. It sounds contradictory but... The original laws God gave are still the laws. The laws Jesus was accused of breaking were mans laws not those of God.

Christians are Gentiles not Jews. Jesus came initially for the Jews, but they decided to wait for someone else...and still are. Why should Christians follow Jewish law when the Jews missed the whole point? Jesus gave a message to Paul for Christians. If you want to understand Christians you will have to read the letters Paul wrote.

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When dealing with people like this lead by example. It should not be so hard to prove to them you are not evil. If there is no compulsion in Islam then there is no need to prove anything.

If you want to be accepted by this group then focus on the similarities. Always keep it light. God will determine the time for serious convo.

As I understand it, God gave Abraham 10 commandments. The Jews gave themselves 613, plus a few for being so pious. Jesus seemed to break Jewish law, yet came not to destroy the law. It sounds contradictory but... The original laws God gave are still the laws. The laws Jesus was accused of breaking were mans laws not those of God.

Christians are Gentiles not Jews. Jesus came initially for the Jews, but they decided to wait for someone else...and still are. Why should Christians follow Jewish law when the Jews missed the whole point? Jesus gave a message to Paul for Christians. If you want to understand Christians you will have to read the letters Paul wrote.

The true followers of Prophet Jesus(as) were the Jerusalem "Church" led by monotheist followers of the laws of Prophet Moses(as) like Peter, James, etc. I recommend reading the sections of this website dealing with Peter, James, and the true disciples of Prophet Jesus(as) vs. the liar and fake Paul (whose myths were later adopted by the Pagan Roman Empire and made Pauline Trinitarian Christianity their state religion): http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html

This battle is even evident from the Corrupted Christian "New Testament" books themselves (specifically the letters that are attributed to Paul); for one example:

Galatians 2:11-21

Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. ( why did people such as the Apostle James still believe that the law regarding food should still be applied? If Jesus came to replace the law, then why are they still following the law?) 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. (so, Peter, James and Barnabas are wrong?)

Regarding Paul he was a Pagan, who spoke against the laws of God like not eating pork, etc. In the Corrupted "New Testament" itself it has different versions, in the same book, about what allegedly happened to Paul on the "road to Damascus"

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?

Yes (Acts 9:7)

No (Acts 22:9)

...

When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?

Yes (Acts 26:14)

No (Acts 9:7)

...

Did the voice spell out on the spot what Pauls duties were to be?

Yes (Acts 26:16-18)

No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts 9:7; 22:10)

Also regarding another one of Paul's claims I give you this it refutes Paul's claims of "500 brethern" or 500 people with him in the things this liar (Paul) alleges; http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option...&Itemid=371

Quote- Paul, writing about twenty-five years after the crucifixion contends, without giving a geographic location, that "upwards of five hundred brethren" had simultaneously seen the resurrected Jesus and that many of them were still alive at the time of his writing (1Corinthians 15:6). No information is provided to indicate whether this experience was a visionary revelation or an actual appearance in the flesh. Moreover, Paul does not tell us whether he was among the five hundred, or whether he had heard the story from one of them, or whether it was merely a story that was circulating among certain Christians. This alleged postresurrection appearance is conspicuously omitted in both the Gospels and the Book of Acts.

Had the Corinthians wanted to verify Paul's statement, it would have been, as Paul must have known, virtually impossible for them to do so, considering the primitive means of communication available in those days. Neither did he mention by name any of the five hundred for possible contact by the Corinthians, had they wanted to seek verification. Who experienced this alleged postresurrection appearance, and when and where this supposedly took place is not stated. The whole incident was either an unverifiable rumor utilized by Paul or simply the result of his overzealous missionary activity.

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How would you prove to a christian that there are changes in the bible.

Many of them argue that words are changed because one word can have different meanings... and that is why there are so many versions of them... or they also argue that only synonyms are used to replace words and that the meaning is still the same.

Some quick points. Ask a Christian what language did Prophet Jesus(as) and his Disciples speak? All the historians (even Christian "scholars") admit that Prophet Jesus(as) spoke in Aramaic which is a now "dead" Semitic language (that would've been similar to Arabic and old pure Hebrew; not tainted with modern Hebrew which was brought back in the 19th Century by a man named Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and mixed with Yiddish, Ladino, etc.). The oldest copies of the Corrupted Christian "New Testament" Bibles are the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus both from the 4th Century C.E. (hundreds of years after Prophet Jesus(as) and are all written in Greek.

Regarding the text of the Bibles themselves bring up these issues:

Jeremiah 8:8- " 'How can you say, "We are wise,

for we have the law of the LORD,"

when actually the lying pen of the scribes

has handled it falsely? (NIV Bible)

Proves the Jews corrupted their book!

Also bring up in the Christian New Testament Bibles; 1 John 5:7. This is a open forgery (that was made up in support of the Pagan dogma of "Trinity"). All Christian scholars acknowledge that 1 John 5:7 is a late insertion into the text; so much so that even some newer Christian "New Testament" Bibles are taking this verse out of the book!

There is also the last chapter of the Christian "Gospel of Mark"; Mark Chapter 16. This is what it says in this chapter starting at Mark 16:8- 8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

So this book itself is saying that 11 verses are not found in the "most reliable" Christian manuscripts!

One last question to ask a Christian is which of the many Bibles is the right or real one! We Muslims only have on Holy Qur'an in the original Arabic language (this is obviously different then English translations of the Qur'an which are not the Qur'an itself, but only an attempt by a human translator to take God's Holy words in Arabic and translate them into English: i.e. humans are not perfect). However, Christians claim the Bible in the English language is allegedly the "word of God"; so which Bible is it? Is it the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible? Is it the New Internationl Version (NIV) of the Bible? Is it the Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible? Is it the Douay-Rheims Catholic version of the Bible? The list of different Bibles could go on and on. Also Christians themselves have two major groups Catholics and Protestants, the Protestants Bible has 66 books while the Catholics has 73 books! Note with Shi'a Muslims and Sunni Muslims; we have the exact same Arabic Holy Qur'an, you can go into any Masjid (Mosque) be it a Shi'a Muslim Masjid or a Sunni Muslim Masjid and you'll find the exact same Arabic Holy Qur'an Mushaf (book)!

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The true followers of Prophet Jesus(as) were the Jerusalem "Church" led by monotheist followers of the laws of Prophet Moses(as) like Peter, James, etc. I recommend reading the sections of this website dealing with Peter, James, and the true disciples of Prophet Jesus(as) vs. the liar and fake Paul (whose myths were later adopted by the Pagan Roman Empire and made Pauline Trinitarian Christianity their state religion): http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html

This battle is even evident from the Corrupted Christian "New Testament" books themselves (specifically the letters that are attributed to Paul); for one example:

Galatians 2:11-21

Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. ( why did people such as the Apostle James still believe that the law regarding food should still be applied? If Jesus came to replace the law, then why are they still following the law?) 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. (so, Peter, James and Barnabas are wrong?)

Regarding Paul he was a Pagan, who spoke against the laws of God like not eating pork, etc. In the Corrupted "New Testament" itself it has different versions, in the same book, about what allegedly happened to Paul on the "road to Damascus"

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?

Yes (Acts 9:7)

No (Acts 22:9)

...

When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?

Yes (Acts 26:14)

No (Acts 9:7)

...

Did the voice spell out on the spot what Pauls duties were to be?

Yes (Acts 26:16-18)

No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts 9:7; 22:10)

Also regarding another one of Paul's claims I give you this it refutes Paul's claims of "500 brethern" or 500 people with him in the things this liar (Paul) alleges; http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option...&Itemid=371

Quote- Paul, writing about twenty-five years after the crucifixion contends, without giving a geographic location, that "upwards of five hundred brethren" had simultaneously seen the resurrected Jesus and that many of them were still alive at the time of his writing (1Corinthians 15:6). No information is provided to indicate whether this experience was a visionary revelation or an actual appearance in the flesh. Moreover, Paul does not tell us whether he was among the five hundred, or whether he had heard the story from one of them, or whether it was merely a story that was circulating among certain Christians. This alleged postresurrection appearance is conspicuously omitted in both the Gospels and the Book of Acts.

Had the Corinthians wanted to verify Paul's statement, it would have been, as Paul must have known, virtually impossible for them to do so, considering the primitive means of communication available in those days. Neither did he mention by name any of the five hundred for possible contact by the Corinthians, had they wanted to seek verification. Who experienced this alleged postresurrection appearance, and when and where this supposedly took place is not stated. The whole incident was either an unverifiable rumor utilized by Paul or simply the result of his overzealous missionary activity.

And this is what you would tell someone who is trying to converse with Christians? This is the same blubbering that keeps Muslims where they are on the popularity scale.

Your copy/paste opinion is annoying and not what I'd see as helpful at all.

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And this is what you would tell someone who is trying to converse with Christians? This is the same blubbering that keeps Muslims where they are on the popularity scale.

Your copy/paste opinion is annoying and not what I'd see as helpful at all.

Exactly. Thank you.

Here Paul, one of Christianity's most beloved apostles, is refered to as "the liar and fake Paul." I not only find that most offensive, but wonder why any Christian would want to enter into a discussion where there's such disrespect.

Edited by way2go

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Exactly. Thank you.

Here Paul, one of Christianity's most beloved apostles, is refered to as "the liar and fake Paul." I not only find that most offensive, but wonder why any Christian would want to enter into a discussion where there's such disrespect.

Then when you try to label a Muslim personage you get abuse. I know the feeling.

It is preferable to describe men by their actions not what your skewed opinion tells you, and in Saint Paul's case, he was quite a remarkable man.

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WATS PROPHET JESUS..... DON'T U GUYS HAVE A DIFFERENT NAME FOR HIM...... :squeez: :angel:

no the Prophet Jesus (as) is called the Prophet Jesus (as) in english, his name in arabic is Nabi Isa (as) Nabi means propht and Isa means Jesus, so it is not a different name, all arabic speaking people whether christian or muslim say Isa (as) and english speaking people say Jesus (alyh alsalaam, which roughly translates as peace be upon him)

Edited by zainab_

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Then when you try to label a Muslim personage you get abuse. I know the feeling.

It is preferable to describe men by their actions not what your skewed opinion tells you, and in Saint Paul's case, he was quite a remarkable man.

If your a Muslim, your bordering on disbelief and being a kaafir. Saying a liar and fake like Paul of Tarsus was allegedly a "remarkable man" is a nearing shirk. Paul murdered the followers of Prophet Jesus(as), and then use stealth and tried to corrupt the followers of Prophet Jesus(as) from within. Paul claimed Jesus(as) was allegedly God and Paul opposed the true followers of Prophet Jesus(as) like Peter, James, etc. The Jewish Christians or Ebionites.

Edited by Abdul-Rahman Brent

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^ Yeh I think Abdul-Rahman could do with reading Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone once more. Especially the part where Ollivander gives Harry a wand and comments on the Phoenix core, then labels Voldemort as Great.

^^ If we are taking your fundamental view of the world as true, then I have no doubt that I do not border the line of disbelief. I have crossed it by a wide margin and am now enjoying a drink on a beach two and a half thousand miles from said border. But naturally I claim my side of the border is the right one.

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No its not. There are clear contradictions in Bible about numbers, things and theology.

You are absolutely correct. But fundamentalists will always have fantasy to overcome theese contradictions. There are also contradictions in the Quran, far from as many thou. But it is just as impossible to convince a muslim fundamentalist about this, if his faith, just like his christian alike, is dependent on the Bible/Quran to be perfect. You can not make someone with this dependency change his mind if he doesnt want to. I myself have tried with both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists. Hopeless, but I got some fantastic explanations.

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You are absolutely correct. But fundamentalists will always have fantasy to overcome theese contradictions

Please define what is a "fundamentalist"?

There are also contradictions in the Quran, far from as many thou

Can you show me just ONE contradiction in the Holy Quran?

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Exactly. Thank you.

Here Paul, one of Christianity's most beloved apostles, is refered to as "the liar and fake Paul." I not only find that most offensive, but wonder why any Christian would want to enter into a discussion where there's such disrespect.

I hope you agree if we were on a Christian site, we would get similar comments but aimed towards our Prophet (saw). People of any religious persuasion can be rude and obnoxious, its not a specific attribute of one religion or sect.

But i agree when debating or having 'dialogue' with Christians maybe such strong language isn't appropriate. But dont worry people who apparently share a faith with some of these people get the same abuse thrown at them and their personages...so your not that special :lol: You need to be a bit more thick skinned, do you really care what a non-christian thinks, surely you believe they're going to hell, so the last laughs on you....(or so you think so...lol)

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Then when you try to label a Muslim personage you get abuse. I know the feeling.

It is preferable to describe men by their actions not what your skewed opinion tells you, and in Saint Paul's case, he was quite a remarkable man.

To be honest i can't see anything remarkable about him, well i can see a bit, the fact that he created/shaped his own religion maybe makes him remarkable, but i can't explain it, i've seen so many documentaries and read books, some by Christians and others Agnostics/Atheists, and remarkable is not a word i would call him. And thats not just because he's from another religion.

Buddha to me was remarkable, Akhanaten was, some of the stories of the Hindu scripts seem remarkable, Confucius was, but Paul he just seems confused and i hope no-one takes offence, i cant think of a better description, Bland!!

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^His remarkableness was in the sheer magnitude of his conversion, in setting up a religion from a small Jewish sect that has over a billion followers and 2000 years on and there are still billions that aspire to him. Regardless of what he said, he managed to change the face of the world.

But since you mentioned Akhanaten lets talk about him... he was not remarkable by any means. He introduced monotheism to Egypt, moved the capital and in doing so wasted huge sums of money. Forgot to collect tribute from other countries, lost the hope of the people and was finally eliminated from history and his bloodline removed from the royal family after almost causing the collapse of the Egyptian nation and way of life. Moronic, not remarkable.

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If your a Muslim, your bordering on disbelief and being a kaafir.

I think that makes Jubei a target now.

Saying a liar and fake like Paul of Tarsus was allegedly a "remarkable man" is a nearing shirk. Paul murdered the followers of Prophet Jesus(as), and then use stealth and tried to corrupt the followers of Prophet Jesus(as) from within. Paul claimed Jesus(as) was allegedly God and Paul opposed the true followers of Prophet Jesus(as) like Peter, James, etc. The Jewish Christians or Ebionites.

This paragraph is so twisted. You must have been worshipping the words of answering-christianity again.

You have no basis to call Paul a liar, or a fake. Matter of fact, I'd bet you have no idea on your own.

Did you once take a look at what Paul confronted Peter and James about? I think you saw the word "confronted" and the rest was blah, blah, blah because you had already read all you wanted to, (of someone elses opinion)

Show me one place where Paul said Jesus was God.

I think you would be more on topic if the thread was called "How to tick off a christian"

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How would you prove to a christian that there are changes in the bible.

Many of them argue that words are changed because one word can have different meanings... and that is why there are so many versions of them... or they also argue that only synonyms are used to replace words and that the meaning is still the same.

(bismillah)

(salam)

There is a very good long debates on youtube.com by Mr. Ahmad Deedat (r.a), with various christian scholars, with regards to their belief that Nabi Isa (a.s) is god and that the bible have been mistakenly translated and changed. You just have to watch them and you will see, I do recommend you watch all of them, and pay very close attention to the questions he asks, and the asnwers he gives. He is a very very smart Islamic scholars and you will benefit from him a lot on issues of debate between Muslim and Christian scholars.

(salam)

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^His remarkableness was in the sheer magnitude of his conversion, in setting up a religion from a small Jewish sect that has over a billion followers and 2000 years on and there are still billions that aspire to him. Regardless of what he said, he managed to change the face of the world.

But since you mentioned Akhanaten lets talk about him... he was not remarkable by any means. He introduced monotheism to Egypt, moved the capital and in doing so wasted huge sums of money. Forgot to collect tribute from other countries, lost the hope of the people and was finally eliminated from history and his bloodline removed from the royal family after almost causing the collapse of the Egyptian nation and way of life. Moronic, not remarkable.

Paul didn't set up a religion, he just took prevaling Hellenistic ideas and mishmashed them up with a bit of Judaism. And while he was alive his religion wasn't much of a success, i.e he didnt help at all to have it spread did he? It was luck, and a bit of Political conniving by Constantine.....also he didnt convert to the original Church he made up his own, it is that and the fact that a billion people follow his ideas, most christians from the developing world or Latin America probably know nothing about him to aspire to be like him its only probably some western world christians who know about him, that i said he's a bit remarkable.

But im open to be proven wrong....

Akhaneten went against prevailing Polytheistic ideas the exact opposite of Paul, and founded a Monotheistic religion. He was some believe the pre-cursor to Musa (as) and that some of his ideas and hymns made their way into Judaism. He in essence reinvigorated Judaism inadvertantly. It was his bad luck, his successor was murdered, hows that his fault? And that his other successors decided to remove all symbols of his reign and religion. But in the end he had the last laugh, his monotheistic successor (in a way) Musa (as) defeated one of his rival successors, his heir is now the most famous pharoah, his contribution to monotheism and the claim he is the first recorded monotheist is now noted. It was his luck that he had no Constantine, if he did his ideas were much more remarkable and ground breaking.

I do admit he was an incompetent ruler and should have given the pharaohship to someone else and just become a theologian, but then hey people arent perfect :P

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If you have read up on the political situation that caused the downfall of his dynasty, you will note it was all his fault. The reason is the huge political backlash that he caused by his failed attempt to instigate sun worshiping and abandoning the temples at Thebes, which none of the population was willing to do.

Egypt at the time was governed ultimately by the pharaoh, but his political might was only a third of the ruling powers, the others being the army and the religious priesthood, from which Amenhotep had to derive his power. By neglecting the temples at thebes, he lost huge support not only from the priests, but also from the general populace who were not happy with the new religion. Because of his failure as a political leader, he also lost the army, which is evident by the rule of Hormheb.

His political downfall was stressed by the fact that after his death, his own son abandoned the capital to return to thebes and the old Gods after just a few years (not on a whim, but on advice from the vizier Aye, because it was evident that the people were not happy, and the overseas political strain that Akhentaten had created was not going to be fixed until he had proper military support again). This is a city that didn't even survive a single generation.

He was an utter failure and caused the end of his entire dynasty.

From a historical ground, Paul started one. It doesn't matter that he mishmashed a religion together. Most religions in existence are just adjusted previous ones. Even Islam is just a re-imagining of Judaism. What he endured to get his message across (whatever that message was) was remarkable.

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Even Islam is just a re-imagining of Judaism.

How is Islam is a re-imagining of judaism? Yes we believe in the same prophets and their stories, but that's because they were historical people, not because our religion is copying theirs.

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