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In the Name of God بسم الله

Taking shirts off during Juloos

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  • Advanced Member

Salam,

a brother representing a Youth Organization is circulating this letter, please let me know what you think and what measures should be taken.

Jazakallah.

Dear Committee Members

Subject: Filming of Muharram Procession and Zanjir Zani

Mohebban Youth Foundation requests your urgent attention on behalf of a number of Shia families in M****** towards the above mentioned issues.

We notice that the police have allowed the Shia community of M******* to have a procession on X Road during the first ten days of Muharram. We congratulate the Shia community on this great achievement. It is now our responsibility to utilise this opportunity to its full potential and spread the message of Imam Hussain (as) to wider public.

However, regrettably some of our practices during this procession do not produce such healthy results as we would like. First and the foremost of these are to take our shirts off in the presence of our respected ladies. This particular practice not only violates the Islamic commandments but also the respect of our sisters. It does so not only do this at the procession but even at our homes through the videos.

We are all aware of the fact that Islam does not allow men and women to expose themselves in indecent dress. We are sure that none of use likes half-naked men walking on beaches in Western countries. If this is the case then why do we make an exception for ourselves while busy in azadari.

Are we not meant to spread the message of Imam Hussain while in such a procession? If this is the case then why do we dress in such a disgusting manner? We do not go to each other’s houses half naked; then why do we come out on the roads like this?

We are not sure if any of the Shia centres in M****** have the strength and will to stop this with or without the help of police. However, I am sure they can try to stop this practice.

Let us quote you an action of our beloved Imam to support our logical point of view. Imam Hussain (as) himself did not want his naked body to be seen and only for this reason he preferred to wear his old shirt as he knew that the enemies were going to take his clothes off after brutally killing him.

We request all the centres in M****** to announce repeatedly in their programmes from the beginning of Muharram the following requests.

1. Please do not take your shirts off to respect the sanctity of Azadari.

2. If people have taken their shirts off then do not film the procession.

3. Zanjir Zani in public (in front of many people even shias) is not recommended by any of the Marja of Taqleed. In case people are defiant and continue with Zanjir Zani no one should be allowed to film it.

We pray that Insha’Allah we will be able to stop the practices which are rather damaging the beauty of faith of Ahlul Bayt (as).

We wish you success in you Islamic aims.

Mohebban Youth Foundation

Edited by The_Reaper
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it shouldent be much of an issue according to Islam the religion we follow, a man must cover from navel to his knees, if that is done, islamically they are allowed

If it is haram for a man's chest to be exposd in front of non-mahrams you all really need to get with Allah awj and se then about changing the hajj rights and laws there. I am sure Allah was wrong ab

Im sure imam Hussain would not appreciate their acts, and if they loved him soo much they would not be going against his teachings. I see yourself you have had first hand experience of these people in

  • Advanced Member

Salam,

it does not say Marja do not allow it,

just that it is not recommended

However, doing it in front of ppl in countries such as Iran and Iraq is completely different to doing it here in the west. There is a complete clash of culture over here, whereas for ppl in Iran and Iraq it is taking place in Islamic settings where ppl know the story and the ideology behind what we are doing.

THerefore no one makes any judgments.

Whereas, doing it here in the west is totally different. When we take our shirts off in front of total strangers they must think we are insane ? They do not know why ? they have a completely different mindset to ours, their ideology is different along with their mentality. This shock leads to many people making irrational judgments without any information.

However if one was to present their views and opinions in a way which is approachable and friendly then things would be different.

If this was to be transitioned over a long period of time then maybe things would be different in the west ?

Edited by The_Reaper
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  • Advanced Member

There are many things to be taken into consideration here:

1) Image of Islam/Muslims

2) Culture

3) Modesty

4) Remembrance of Imam Hussain (a.s.)

__________________________________

1) Let's first talk about the image of Islam. It's extremely important to note that we must put our selves in the shoes of non-Muslims. Everything you do will reflect the image of not only yourselves, but unfortunately all Muslims and Islam. Why? Innate, irrational stereotypes that are often formed sub-consciously. You must be very careful what you do because this may be one of the few, if not the only time that these particular non-Muslims will see a large crowd of Muslims. I mean you must be careful of every single thing.

2) So let's move on to culture. I guess there's nothing wrong with taking off one's shirt in public in particular Middle-Eastern countries, but that isn't the case here in the West. Taking off one's shirt is only acceptable in certain circumstances. If people pass by and see a bunch of shirtless guys and they aren't running/not at the beach, people will be confused and probably disgusted.

3) Modesty. Our clothes are fashioned in such a way that the part of the navel will be exposed if the shirt is removed. Why? Because in Western countries, pants are only worn up till the waist. If someone feels that they can ensure that there will be some sort "navel inspection"...then please disregard this point.

4) Remembrance of Imam Hussain (a.s.). We have to remember why we are doing this: To remember Imam Hussain. Why would we risk tarnishing the name of Islam or making ourselves immodest for remembering Imam Hussain? Would Imam Hussain approve?

Let's face it: Muslims are already seen as backwards, barbaric individuals in Western societies. I do not support any form of self-flogging via chains or the removal of shirts.

Remember one thing: Imam Hussain sacrificed his life for Islam.

Will you sacrifice your cultural practices for Imam Hussain?

Edited by longlivepalestine
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  • Advanced Member

Salam Alaikum

Women are not allowed to look at the body of the non-mahram man exceot that which is normally uncovered such as the head, neck, hands, arms, feet, etc.

Ayatullah Sistani:

2442. * It is haraam for man to look at the body or hair of the Non-Mahram women, regardless of whether it is with the intention of pleasure or not, and whether there is a fear of falling into sinful act or not. It is also haraam to look at the faces and the arms, upto the wrists, of such women with the intention of pleasure, or if there is fear of falling into sinful act, and the recommended precaution is that one should not look at their faces or arms even without such an intention. Similarly, it is haraam for a woman to look at the body of Non-Mahram man, except places which are customarily not covered, like, his face, hands, head, neck and feet. She can look at these parts of a man without the intention of deriving any pleasure, or if there is no fear of being entrapped in any sinful act.

Ayatullah Khoi:

2442. It is unlawful for man to look at the body or hair of the non mehram women*, whether or not it is with the intention of pleasure. It is also unlawful to look at the faces and hands of such women with the intention of pleasure and the obligatory precaution is that one should not look at their faces or hands even without such an intention. And according to precaution it is unlawful for a woman to look at the body of a non mahram, except his face, hands, head, neck, and feet. Apparently a woman's looking at these parts without the intention of pleasure is lawful, though it is better to avoid it.

when u go to hajj do we wear shirts or not?

arent there na marhams around? the hajjis only wear one round their waist and one over their shoulder.

if its disrespectful for a man to be shirtless infront of women or mens, then why in islam is parda for men navel to knee and not neck to ankle?

Please learn what the actual parda of a man is.

The aboslutely minimum for prayers and hajj is to cover the navel to the knees. This is a separate issue from hijab/parda. If there is a risk that a non-mahram woman will see you while you are praying or while you are on Hajj, you also have to ensure the rest of the body is sufficiently covered.

Having taken part in many jaloos in Pakistan, I have been disturbed by the fact that there are hundreds of men with no upper clothing, some with even the navel showing, and they are a few feet away from spectating women. It is no secret in Pakistan and it is widely said that this is one of the purpose. Allah knows best what their intention is, but this is not the modesty of men as taught by the Ahlul-Bait [a].

Sheikh Hurr ul-Amili has a chapter in Al-Wasail wherein he states his view that it is haram for women too look upon a male ajnabi, even if he is blind. He narrates a hadeeth from the Prophet in which he told Aisha and Hafsa to leave the room in which a blind man was entering, they claimed that he is blind so cannot see us, but the Prophet said that you two are not blind and you both can see him.

One can just as easily do azadari without removing clothing, and there is no reason at all to remove the kameez/shirt in matam.

Such immodesty is completely unnecessary and will lead to ills in society.

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  • Veteran Member

Even I am bored of these threads now.

They are going to hit them selves even if Allah sent an angel the size of the moon telling them to stop. They are already doing it when there is no reason to, so they obviously dont listen to evidence/logic , so its pointless explaining it to them.

They will just do as their fathers did until someone clocks it eventually thats its not part of the religion.

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  • Advanced Member

If it is haram for a man's chest to be exposd in front of non-mahrams you all really need to get with Allah awj and se then about changing the hajj rights and laws there.

I am sure Allah was wrong about all this.

oh, and if you want to know what people of other faiths think about zanjeer, please refer to the matam, national geographic thread where you have comments made by two people who were born into other faiths.

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  • Moderators

(bismillah)

(salam)

I think our respected brother Abbas summed up the matter very well in his post. It is important to know the full implication of a law before generalizing it.

As for the letter, apart from circulating it, it would also be useful to speak directly to the organizers as well as the religious representatives of the centres involved.

Also, I think it's unnecessary to get the police involved (which is what I understand the letter to be indirectly implying). Instead of solving the issue it's only going to create hostility. This is a move that should be taken by the people. You can't have the police coming in all the time. The people who attend the religious centres should be able to solve their issues independantly.

Edited by Asadollah
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  • Basic Members

(salam)

There has been many attempts to contain the Zanjir zani and matam without shirt but to no avail. We should not try to stop this during Muharram when the sentiments are running high. But we should keep spreading the words through forums like this, schools, discussions during off-season, etc. It will take generations to remove something that has taken deep roots into the society over the centuries. May Allah give reasoning to our community that claims to follow the religion of 'aql'.

(wasalam)

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  • Banned

Salams, Ya Ali Madat, and Lanat on the enemies of the Ahlebeyt.

respected brother reaper, what difference does it make if you dont tell anyone you are referring to manchester, and talking specifically about the 404 jaloos down wilmslow road? why the secrecy? manchester isnt the only jaloos in the world u know.

first and foremost - i think this is a terrible idea. truly awful. what do you hope to achieve by spreading this fitnah? will people read the letter and suddenly go "oh i never knew people dont like what we do, we better stop then"? do you not think there has been enough fitnah in manchester this last decade without your interference?

what is the group talking about, "congratulating you on this great achievement"? how patronising and condescending can you get? the jaloos has occured every single year since 1991 without A SINGLE incident - ever - with attendance mashallah going into the several thousands every single year,

not to mention that if moheban youth actually 1) showed up or 2) showed up and paid attention, they would see TENS of people handing out flyers to all and sundry what is going on. mohebban, on the other hand, has been up and running what, 2 years? 3 years? how many members has it got? less than 100? why are a bunch of paddeh students with too much time on their hands writing this big official sounding letters imposing their baqwaas on everyone as though they are some higher authority to shia organisations that done much more than write condescending letters that are guaranteed to piss everyone off?

since we are talking about 404, you will know that about 95% of the momins are paki. i.e. they wear a shalwaar (traditional pants) which covers their naval anyway. since the minimum is covered, its not an issue. we are not breaking the law in the uk (or indeed anywhere in the west), so this quote:

We are not sure if any of the Shia centres in M****** have the strength and will to stop this with or without the help of police. However, I am sure they can try to stop this practice.

just highlights the arrogance and ignorance of the author. im guessing hes either a freshy or iranian. tell me, what law are we breaking that we will need the police to intervene? if we can read namaz so long as our navel to knee is covered, then surely namaz is a better action than azadari, so "logically" if its ok for namaz, why isnt it ok for azadari?

why is it, that all these student organisations and reformists have sprung up? why is it so hard to leave us to do what we want, and we leave you to do what YOU want (which we do anyway).

if the marjas see it as a grey area, then who is the moheban youth group to come along and pushing thier dumbass letters down everyones throats, who they should know arent interested, wont change and dont care?

when was the last time a matami starting forcing his opinion on anyone?

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  • Advanced Member

Live and Let Live is what I say.

Mohebban Foundation what is there problem in trying to decrease the Azadari of Imam Hussain(as).

If you have a problem with taking your shirts off DONT noone asked you or forced you.

Hear Hear to MDM

Just carry on doing what your doing eventually these SADDOS who dont have a life will find something else to moan about.

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  • Banned
Just carry on doing what your doing eventually these SADDOS who dont have a life will find something else to moan about.

EXACTLY sakhi. i didnt want to say this, but most of the student shia organisations here in manchester are more focused on brothers scoring "hijabi points" then anything sincere. mohabben is (i think) a brothers only group so im guessing they are just trying to get a reputation or notoriety or something similarly pathetic.

im waiting for them to start pushing khamenei as the wilayat e faqih any time soon lol.

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  • Advanced Member

Salam,

In the name of Allah, the most benificient the most merciful.

First of all brother thankyou for your reply,

howeve if you wish to adress this matter in the future i suggest that you should kindly refrain from using innapropriate language. This is after all an Islamic forum there is no need to be overly agressive or distasteful.

So, i would appreciate it if the future you wish to make a comment please do so but in a kind and courteous manner which is not considered offensive.

respected brother reaper, what difference does it make if you dont tell anyone you are referring to manchester, and talking specifically about the 404 jaloos down wilmslow road? why the secrecy? manchester isnt the only jaloos in the world u know.

I was merely trying to represent this letter to all areas where this takes places, however if you wish to narrow this down to specifically one Juloos, then feel free too, I have no problem with that.

first and foremost - i think this is a terrible idea. truly awful. what do you hope to achieve by spreading this fitnah? will people read the letter and suddenly go "oh i never knew people dont like what we do, we better stop then"? do you not think there has been enough fitnah in manchester this last decade without your interference?

As to your point, that this letter is intended to spred fitnah, i completely disagree.

THis letter is only merrely trying to adress a point which is considered to be not very tactful or approproate in this present age. We have no intention of creating schisms or any disruptions within the Shia community in Manchester, far from it as a whole.

This is an issue which has been raised year after year, but nothing has come about, but when a brother tries to speak out and raise some awareness, it is people like you who immediatedly label is a 'fitnah' and start too dismiss the issue without thinking twice.

As for your 2nd question, i dont think this is relevant to the issue in context.

what is the group talking about, "congratulating you on this great achievement"? how patronising and condescending can you get? the jaloos has occured every single year since 1991 without A SINGLE incident - ever - with attendance mashallah going into the several thousands every single year.

As for this comment, can a person not merely praise one, as organizing and running a Juloos in itself is a great task, so i do not understand how this condescending in any shape or form, however i do see and understand that it can be a bit patronizing.

Nevertheless this letter was written with the best of intentions and it was never meant to patronize any one.

not to mention that if moheban youth actually 1) showed up or 2) showed up and paid attention, they would see TENS of people handing out flyers to all and sundry what is going on.

1) To correct you regularly every year Mohebban members attend

2) We ourselves to correct you were handing out flyers, but the question is not about handing out flyers far from it.

mohebban, on the other hand, has been up and running what, 2 years? 3 years? how many members has it got? less than 100? why are a bunch of paddeh students with too much time on their hands writing this big official sounding letters imposing their baqwaas on everyone as though they are some higher authority to shia organisations that done much more than write condescending letters that are guaranteed to piss everyone off?

Mohebban has been sucessfully running for over 10years alhamd with the grace of God and Imam Mahdi.

As for its number of members this is besides the point whether they hav one 1 or 1000. Surely from the tragedy of Karbala, where only 72ppl fought against a tyrannical ruler who had members going into the many thousands you must see that numbers does not make a difference. If people want to raise and issue and stand up to what they believe in , one person can it by himself.

As for imposing this subject on Shia orgnizations, if you were to read this letter properly and thoroughly, it says,

We request all the centres in Manchester to announce repeatedly in their programmes from the beginning of Muharram the following requests.

It does not say command or force it says request.

since we are talking about 404, you will know that about 95% of the momins are paki. i.e. they wear a shalwaar (traditional pants) which covers their naval anyway. since the minimum is covered, its not an issue. we are not breaking the law in the uk (or indeed anywhere in the west)

But so, is it respectable and persmissible to do so in fron coplete strangers including non-mahram women.

Islam is about modest dress, would you be comfortable walking around 24/7 in just a shalwaar with no top ?

We are not sure if any of the Shia centres in M****** have the strength and will to stop this with or without the help of police. However, I am sure they can try to stop this practice.
just highlights the arrogance and ignorance of the author. im guessing hes either a freshy or iranian. tell me, what law are we breaking that we will need the police to intervene? if we can read namaz so long as our navel to knee is covered, then surely namaz is a better action than azadari, so "logically" if its ok for namaz, why isnt it ok for azadari?

First of all you appropriate here is offensive and completely out of order, as is not necessary.

Secondly, i beliee you hav miss uderstood what the brother is trying to aim at,

he is saying that the police work hand in hand with the organizers if they wish to stop the removal of shirts from taking place.

Not for the Police to enforce it on their own accord,only if the organizers wish to do something about it.

Thirdly regarding your "logic", do you ever see people praying outside on the streets with no top ? or does any pray in masjids with no tops ? do you pray in your own house with no tops ?

Azadari during the Juloos, not only affects us but the poeple around us. It makes a bad impression, and mis represents the face of Islam. Put yourself in a non muslims shoes, if you were walking down the road and saw 50ppl with no shirts, beating their chests, chanting. Would you not find this a little if not a lot Threatening and hostile ?

It is perfectly alright to do it in the sanctity of ur own home or masjid in private with no shirtsm however in public is it appropriate ?

why is it, that all these student organisations and reformists have sprung up? why is it so hard to leave us to do what we want, and we leave you to do what YOU want (which we do anyway).

Mohebban is not a reformist organization, never has and never will be.

A Muslim Ummah is meant to be one and united, not two seperate entities doing two seperate things.

This is how rifts and disruptions occur.

We are only trying to better the practice of Isalm and help to further spread the message in an Islamic way, which abides all codes and conduct and furtherly and most importatly i believe to reinforce it within ourselves not only to the youth but eveyrone else, including the elders.

f the marjas see it as a grey area, then who is the moheban youth group to come along and pushing thier dumbass letters down everyones throats, who they should know arent interested, wont change and dont care?

It is better to be safe than sorry,

and we are not pushing or forcing this letter, we are merely highlighting this issue and as the letter says "requesting".

As for instigating change, every1 has to begin somewhere, if your heart is set on an isue, and you have the best of intention then by the will of Allah the change will happen.

As they say,. if you dont suceed at first, try and try again.

when was the last time a matami starting forcing his opinion on anyone?

As i said before no one is forcing no one merely requesting.

Hope this helps and answers,

May Allah direct us both towards the right path and grant us Taufiq and wisdom.

W.salam

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  • Advanced Member
Live and Let Live is what I say.

Mohebban Foundation what is there problem in trying to decrease the Azadari of Imam Hussain(as).

If you have a problem with taking your shirts off DONT noone asked you or forced you.

Hear Hear to MDM

Just carry on doing what your doing eventually these SADDOS who dont have a life will find something else to moan about.

No one is trying tto decrease the Azadari, meely carry it out in a manner which is for the betterment of the reilgion and helps it to spread or flourish.

And practice it within its rules and regualtions.

EXACTLY sakhi. i didnt want to say this, but most of the student shia organisations here in manchester are more focused on brothers scoring "hijabi points" then anything sincere. mohabben is (i think) a brothers only group so im guessing they are just trying to get a reputation or notoriety or something similarly pathetic.

im waiting for them to start pushing khamenei as the wilayat e faqih any time soon lol.

We are not set up for ay personal or materialistic gains. We have the best of intentions, we run this group with the help of Allah and Imam Mehdi to help the youth in Manchester to develop and stay intouch with Islam and its true meaning especailly with us living in a Western society.

So, i would appreciate it you people like you would not make false judgements and statements.

W.salam.

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  • Banned

^^ i am leaving for work in a few minutes so cant reply. i will post inshallah a response point by point either later on tonight, tomorrow or thursday.

however i do have time to ask - and a few people have said this - why was the letter anonymous?

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  • Advanced Member
^^ i am leaving for work in a few minutes so cant reply. i will post inshallah a response point by point either later on tonight, tomorrow or thursday.

however i do have time to ask - and a few people have said this - why was the letter anonymous?

Its quite obvious that the Jamaat is not ready for any input which goes against their belief. I am not siding with anyone on this.

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Salaam,

The letter is not against azaadari.

Azaadari is very important, as it mobilises the youth, lets them engage with the message of imam hussain(as) better than books can ever do. Azaadari should just not be confined to muhurrham, it should go on throughout the year, We should walk many streets and parks talking to people about Imam Hussain every day, the imam of all, not just the shias.

This letter is not against azaadari which is essential

It is merely suggesting that the form of azaadari we engage is damaging not strengthening the religion

This is a fair comment to make as recent times have shown (16 year old made to do zanjeer dad goes to court, Dm digital show zanjeer on tv without asking all those in attendence permision first)

All it is suggesting is, keep your shirt on, its quite cold in december, be modest, when you greet someone at the door, or if you want to present someone an idea, or you go to a funeral you dont go half naked. Live in the TIME WERE IN, Uk is not pakistan!

This letter is not rocket science it is LOGIC, but unfortunately as the person above said the community may not be ready, and we just have to respect them for that as they are shia brothers, and no one at mohebban will ever resort to violence or name calling. As differences in opinion are natural. It is not vajib or reccomended anywhere in hadith or quran that we should uncover our chests and we should hit our backs with knives, so any suggestion of changing these practises cannot be deemed as unislamic as long as it is done with good intention and tolerance which is the aim of mohebban.

However if someone says that azaadari is wrong thats another matter, and mohebban arent saying this.

Lets not get heated in this argument but think out of the box. You can take your shirt of in the mosque thats okay, I personally do matam the harder the better, but just for decency and modesty keep your shirt on when outside in juloos? This is good manners man, not everyone wants to see your man boobs, hairy chests and bellies. Lets make the focus of the juloos imam hussain (as), not naked men. Why is this such a big issue its not a big sacrifice to make?

The question is

WHAT ARE YOU GAINING OR SHOWING (SURELY NOT UR BOOBS) BY PUTTING YOUR SHIRT OFF?

Is this helping the message of Imam Hussain (as)

And lets remember we are allowed to differ in opinion on this issue, just lets be sincere and love each and every muslim brother who has a pure heart.

tc

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Salam,

Isn't it all a bit trivial though? It's all down to the niyah of the person. If the person is taking his shirt off in order to show off his pecs or whatevs to the ladies then that's between him and Allah (SWT) - here we're assuming that the ladies in the audience will have enough sense to not be tempted by Satan and said specs and concentrate on the Azadari.

And if the person is taking his shirt off, while having his trousers covering half his stomach in the out-dated fashion of the early 1900s and his sole intention is to do Azadari then what's the harm? Surely Allah (SWT) is on his side then.

I think we all get bogged down with a lot of trivialities like shirts off during juloos and whether kama-zani is halal etc etc. What we should be concentrating on is Azadari and here I'm again assuming that most of the commentors are adults and have lived through many a Muharram (and inshAllah will live through many more) and therefore are familiar with the etiquettes of what these tragic days require. Exercise common sense, people.

Wasalam.

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I was just waiting for this thread since a month before moharram, where is the zanjeer bashing thread, when are the zanjeer bashers coming out of woodworks??

Bottom line is islam allows it, no matter whan anybody likes to think. Navel to knees is good enough, after that if a woman looks at you its her responsiblity to turn away.

I find looking at woman (even in Hijab) to be very disturbing and tempting? So can I ask all of em to stay home and not show up in public places with or without hijab?

Edited by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT
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Most of those matamis cover their navel i think...if they do it's permissible!! regarding the zanjir zani in front of public...if the point is that the image created is pretty disturbing then people with people with weak hearts shouldn't be there on the first place !! again, as long as they are following Islamic principles..i don't see what's wrong !! If the ladies feel this way..i'm sure they wouldn't even see the brothers doing matam anyway!! the sisters aren't forced to do Hijab..even though it's wajib they are not "forced"..instead the brothers are told to keep their eyes down...i think even if the men don't cover their navels..the same rule applies to women !!!

Edited by syed_murtaza
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  • Banned

ok mohebban group, i suggest the following.

give out these letters, in person, to youths in the jaloos. if you dont, then you are just another self-riteous time wasting student group pissing everyone off for no reason, and if you do, then at least you will have a chance to....debate....with matami as to their legality. im sure you will find the discussions energetic.

logic - you are bloody spot on the community doesnt want to listen. how many times do we have to say "stop [bleep]ing telling us what to do, leave us to our ways, you do yours" before these damn groups learn to get a life and leave us alone.

whizzie - god knows. must be boring just standing there lol. were pretty much used to jalooses now in the rain/ snow bare chested and bare footed, u only feel cold for the first 10/ 20 minutes or so after that you just feel fine. the women must suffer cos all they do is stand still for hours on end rofl.

mohib - yeah i was expecting the azadari threads to start too, you think we might have scared off the regular bunch?

nada1603 - spot on man. each to his own

YA SAHEBUZ ZAMAN ADRIKNI - you seem to have a problem with brothers physical appearances, can i assume from your statements that you then wouldnt mind looking at physically attractive men? are you gay?

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Salaam,

Too Funny.

Look as nada has said, at the end of the day each to their own.

We can never tell people what to do, who are we

We can only educate people

The choice is theirs

Only Allah knows the hearts of the believer

However people have a right to object, this is our right

InshAllah in years to come, Zanjeer and Shirt of during juloos will be a thing of the past, because quite frankly it serves nothing for the message. In fact most of the youth (outside 404) dont come to juloos because they dont want to be seen there. Why dont iraqis and iranis come to these processions. in manchester the juloos is only 200 people max. Is that all, why is this?

So continue your way, and no one can judge you, but we can continue in our way and you cannot judge us.

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[Edited]

Salaam,

Too Funny.

Look as nada has said, at the end of the day each to their own.

We can never tell people what to do, who are we

We can only educate people

The choice is theirs

Only Allah knows the hearts of the believer

However people have a right to object, this is our right

InshAllah in years to come, Zanjeer and Shirt of during juloos will be a thing of the past, because quite frankly it serves nothing for the message. In fact most of the youth (outside 404) dont come to juloos because they dont want to be seen there. Why dont iraqis and iranis come to these processions. in manchester the juloos is only 200 people max. Is that all, why is this?

So continue your way, and no one can judge you, but we can continue in our way and you cannot judge us.

**i thought id keep this quote in case you try and delete it ;)**

the matami come to 404 in their THOUSANDS, from all over the country, from london, from scotland, from bradford, everywhere....and have done since 1991, in fact the numbers get bigger and bigger every year, and people come no matter WHAT the weather. dont take my word for it, look at these youtibe videos for yourself:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-ufJdp4cdxI

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EhgYWRNlbBs

does this look like 200 you goddamned black tongued liar? may Allah curse the liars.

"most youths at 404 dont come" astagfirullah such lies! 404 isnt that big an idara that everyone in manchester doesnt know who comes and who doesnt come, you dont half chat some [Edited Out] you know.

some iraqis come and some iranians come. whats that got to do with us? anyones welcome to come and if they dont, are we meant to be bothered?

it says so much that as soon as someone starts critising your little group you have to resort to lies to try and answer.

Edited by maula dha mallang
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He was answeing from his own accord, has no affiiation with the group.

So please stop judgmenting and being condescending

oh sorry i thought he was speaking on behalf of the group, it sounded like he was. my mistake.

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firstly...what are you "achieving" by sending out these letters?

we take our shirts off...because we WANT to. and its allowed according to islam.

why is that so hard for people to understand?

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perhaps that is the only way iraqi shia, That may be the only way forward inshAllah

these letters have allowed debate and understanding, it is nothing to fall out over in fact we should be happy we feel so much for the messgae of imam Hussain (as).

May Allah have mercy on all of the followers of Imam Hussain (as)

You want to, so in your opinion taking your shirt off in public is not giving the wrong impression of the message of imam hussain (as) so if your sincere about that thats okay inshallah, but personally and for many others we cant go to a juloos and take our shirts off or stand near these people and think sincerely that we are helping the message of imam hussain (as)

i think thats a rational explanation of feelings

Edited by YA SAHEBUZ ZAMAN ADRIKNI
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