Taking shirts off during Juloos

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

yeah, the letter proved that the mohebban youth foundation chat out of their rear ends. thanks for proving that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

:)

iraqi shia and mohebban are gonna organise a jaloos eh? im sure people will turn out in their tens of thousands, the million man march will look like a gentle stroll of a few guys in comparison

[The_Reaper 2]

firstly...what are you "achieving" by sending out these letters?

we take our shirts off...because we WANT to. and its allowed according to islam.

why is that so hard for people to understand?

Coming to the reference that it is allowed accroding to Islam,

many of my friends and brothers were at 404 last night, and they categorically stated that even tho, ppl had their shalwaar on, their navals could be seen. So if this is the case, then what difference is their going to be when it comes to the juloos ? non what so eva.

It is hard for ppl to understand, as we are trying to improve way Islam is practied and to help promote it. And your actions and practice does not help this.

cant you make another procession without the nakedness and self harm?

perhaps more people will attend it and thus we will achieve our aims.

I understand where you are coming from however this will solve nothing,

as the Muslim Ummah is meant to be one united having two will completely destroy this concept and it is better too have 1 big, massive one then 2 seperate ones.

[YA SAHEBUZ ZAMAN ADRIKNI 0]

look man,

even if there is only two people its something, just chill, it wont be on the same road, May Allah make us all successful in propagating the message of Imam Hussain (as), just that if the heart doesnt agree it doesnt agree.

Inshallah watch this space

wont be a juloos will be something like the homeless iftar in the city centre, where we give food and leaflets and talk one to one to people about imam hussain

[Abbas. 3,828]

Thread Re-opened. Lets have nice scholarly discussions :) Thx

Salams

[iraqi_shia 685]

I already attend gatherings, all of them respectful, fully clothed and without any violence.

I think it is the malangs who are the minority with their march, not the other way round.

[ghazi 57]

(bismillah)

(salam)

first of all the brother with lastpost is right, you tell me what you achieve by taking your shirt off in public...?? is it to show off that, look you have a hairy chest...?? and scare all the kids away?? lol

no seriously what difference does it make if just keep your shirt on... you can still do matam with your shirt on, taking your shirt will only make things complicated, some brother or sisters who do want to attend the jaloos might not like it so why don't you show some heart and keep them on... show some humanity.

would you like your mothers and sisters to walk around with men half naked??

and maula da malang why you using bad language...ease out brother...

:yaali:

[MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT 218]

At times you do certain things to achieve some goal, for a purose, whereas if you ask me and I think majority of matamis they will definetly say they do matam out of love of imam Hussain no more no less, so stop asking why we do it or what we acheive from taking our shirts off.

Edited December 31, 2008 by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT

[ghazi 57]

At times you do certain things to achieve some goal, for a purose, whereas if you ask me and I think majority of matamis they will definetly say they do matam out of love of imam Hussain no more no less, so stop asking why we do it or what we acheive from taking our shirts off.

ok you give me one good goal that you achieve by taking your shirt off and doing matam???

and of course we do matam for the love of Imam Hussain (a.s)

but everything we do has right and wrong way of doing...and some of the things we do in the jaloos is wrong.. which gives a bad image of shias...the thing is we are in a country where the majority is non-muslim, so we have to make sure that we think carefully about certain actions before doing them... which might give a bad name to the muslims...

am sure deep sown you understand where am coming from but your just being stubborn.....

:yaali:

[The_Reaper 2]

At times you do certain things to achieve some goal, for a purose, whereas if you ask me and I think majority of matamis they will definetly say they do matam out of love of imam Hussain no more no less, so stop asking why we do it or what we acheive from taking our shirts off.

Okay, if yu say you achieve a different goal by doing matam with your shirts off rather than keeping it on. What is the goal u are achieving which is so different to keeping your shirt on and doing matam ?

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

ok im in a good mood now cos im home :) peace and love to everyone...but especially to maulas matamis :)

sorry mod-ji inshAllah, promise ill behave bro lol.

bro mohib summed it up totally right - we take our shirts off cos WE gain from it. some things are between a slave and his master, not everyone around you, and taking the shirt off is one of them. so what do i gain? what do i achieve? what is the benefit? i feel closer to my lord and master through doing it. so i do it. is that a difficult thing to grasp? i dont think so.

if i left my shirt on i wouldnt feel it as much.

people always toss around this comment "but it goes against imam hussains MESSAGE", to which i always reply..."what WAS that message"? cos i assumed the message was to stand by imam hussain and show your love for him, what he stands for and hatred for those opposed to him. if i take my shirt off and that makes me feel closer and more connected to my master, then surely isnt that hand in hand with at least SOME part of his "message"?

is someone who walks barefoot, barehead and barechested down the street in a snowstorm, out of nothing but grief and love for imam hussain and wanting to be closer to him, an equal to someone who hovers around idaras checking whose navel is showing and then scurrying to report it on internet chatrooms?

[ghazi 57]

ok im in a good mood now cos im home :) peace and love to everyone...but especially to maulas matamis :)

sorry mod-ji inshAllah, promise ill behave bro lol.

bro mohib summed it up totally right - we take our shirts off cos WE gain from it. some things are between a slave and his master, not everyone around you, and taking the shirt off is one of them. so what do i gain? what do i achieve? what is the benefit? i feel closer to my lord and master through doing it. so i do it. is that a difficult thing to grasp? i dont think so.

if i left my shirt on i wouldnt feel it as much.

people always toss around this comment "but it goes against imam hussains MESSAGE", to which i always reply..."what WAS that message"? cos i assumed the message was to stand by imam hussain and show your love for him, what he stands for and hatred for those opposed to him. if i take my shirt off and that makes me feel closer and more connected to my master, then surely isnt that hand in hand with at least SOME part of his "message"?

is someone who walks barefoot, barehead and barechested down the street in a snowstorm, out of nothing but grief and love for imam hussain and wanting to be closer to him, an equal to someone who hovers around idaras checking whose navel is showing and then scurrying to report it on internet chatrooms?

listen brother the message of the Imam is to spread the word of islam through love and peace... doesn't look live love and peace to me the way you are saying... ok you walk naked in a snowstorm to show love for Imam Hussain (a.s) but remember:

Amongst the greatest obligations are amr-bil-Ma’roof (ordering for acknowledged virtues) and nahi anil munkar (forbidding from sin). Allah (SWT) says: “And there should be a group amongst you who invite towards good, order for acknowledged virtues, forbid from sin and these it is that are the successful ones” (Ale Imran: 104).

so how are you spreading the word of islam through what you do??? keeping in your mind the surroundings....

:yaali:

Edited December 31, 2008 by ghazi

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

so how are you spreading the word of islam through what you do??? keeping in your mind the surroundings....

:yaali:

this has already been explained. read the post that explains about youths giving out flyers.

[iraqi_shia 685]

Okay, if yu say you achieve a different goal by doing matam with your shirts off rather than keeping it on. What is the goal u are achieving which is so different to keeping your shirt on and doing matam ?

Bro, you are making the mistake that they were doing the original acts for some logical purpose and reasoning. They are not, its merely a cultural practice with no islamic basis.

You cant have any logical discussion with these people because if they were susceptible to logic they would not be doing these acts in the first place.

[ghazi 57]

this has already been explained. read the post that explains about youths giving out flyers.

its a waste of time arguing with people like you...

[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.

you know the truth....

:yaali:

[GHULAMEPANJTAN 0]

What next is there going to be objections to women taking off their chadars at matam time?

Dont even think about it.

Every1 has the right to do azadari whichever way they please.

I have alot of issues with people but i keep it to myself.

I dont like slow nohas being read at matam time especially karachi style as it puts me to sleep.

I dont like people doing matam with One hand

I dont like it when women come to majalis wearing full make up.

I dont like people disrespecting masayeb by chewing gum or talking like i saw in Hammersmith yesterday.

I dont like peopedoing one hand matam standing at the front of the halqa.(circle)

Should i go on

The point is that we all have our way of looking at something and even though we may think that we are right we may not be. And that Imam Hussain's gham is everyones. No one person or sect has a claim to it.

Would those that the above apply to like it if ACTION was taken in trying to make them conform to what I or what the malangs follow or do.

I dont think so.

The Reaper this "issue" seems to be a "FAMILY" problem of yours you need to sort it out at home Please dont bring it out.

You obviously have weak female members of the family.

Wake up yeah how are you gonna protect them from seeing na mehram unless you lock them up.

Look at where your living all aroiund you there are non mehrams bodys on show male and female alike.

why dont you saddos do something about that?

This is far worse than what the brothers are doing.

Maybe you could go into shops and complain about the way haram pictures are displayed for every1 to see more so now as they have been brought down to a level at which small kids can see them.

People like this dont have the guts to do something about the society they live in so to make it look like they are doing something they start to attack inwards towards their own community.

I was at Hammersmith yesterday and i was able to see the brothers on the screen but i was too into my matam to be bothered about what they looked like (NOT that i look at them or any1 else forthat matter).

In fact at that time i do not concentrate on anything else whatsoever.

At that time it is the people around mes responsibilty to keep clear of my flying arms if they get hit thats there own fault not mine becos i am standing in one place and for that short amount of time that is my space and they need to stay away unless they want to get hit.

When someone is reading namaz you do not disturb them do you?

Maybe those against this should do it and acually try to see or feel for themselves what the brothers mean. i.e. taking off their shirts cos somethings you dont need to be told you need to feel them.

In this world people will always have problems or issues with what you do or believe does that mean to please others you should stop believing or doing what you feel or believe is right.

Sisters wearing Hijab or Niqab is considered hostile should they stop doing that?

Praying namaz seems to some non believers as Muslims sticking their rear ends in the air but haqeeqat is something else we lower our foreheads in submission to Allah.

So will we stop praying our namaz or wearing hijab/niqab in public?

Only the weak imaan ones have given into pressure from others around them.

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

^^ absolutely EXCELLENT post man. superb. i would give you a round of applause but u know, muharram lol so ill just give you a NARAY HAIDARI!!!!!

[KaneezeFatimah 0]

Asalamulaikum all,

Obviously every one can do azadari the way they want it but surely there is an ideal way of doing it and that is the way of the Aimma (alahyasallam) . there is no one who can grieve more for the tragedy of Kerbala than the Masomeen (A.S.) and their way of grieving is the best and so is their form of remembrance.

Its hard for us to imagine them asking people to take off their shirts in public for azadari , its certainly not a practice of Masomeen (Alahysallm) and us being their Shia (followers and lovers) its only best for us to imitate them in every way, whether in prayer, speech, ammr bin amroof or azadari. Masoomeen (Alayhaysallm) were always covered in public and this they considered important as an islamic ideal. Surely we cannot claim that our chosen way is superior or expresses more love and devotion as their way of worship/azadari/ majlis/rememberence was most ideal and superior to every one else’s. It was perfect for spreading the message of Islam keeping within mind the limits set up for us. So how come we chose to let cultural modifications take superiority over their sunna? Its gone quite a bit beyond and applies to other aspects as well where we have pushed many important issues under the carpet and taken to dwell on cultural modifications which Masomeen (Alahaysallam) did not do. So how come this is so?

And it is certainly important to remind people to do that which is right, not cause of personal opinions on things but where there are religious guidelines. Sometimes many people do not know and if they were told in a good way they may change their practice to reflect the Islamic ideal as set up by practice of Masoomeen (Alahysallam).

LABAIKYA HUSSAIN ( Ahahaysallam)

[ghazi 57]

CORRECT!!

mashallah beautifully explained

:yaali: :yaali:

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

kaneezfatima is someone who follows the imams every external action in every way a good muslim?

the imams (as) and bibi paak (sa) know what is in our hearts and our intentions and our devotion to them. what we do in this intention, while displeasing to certain members of this forum, we can only hope that the imams judge our intentions, not our actions. you, nor anyone else, has any authority nor any right to "judge" or "advise" us. cos it is between us and our masters, and, frankly, its no ones business but our own.

external actions are nothing without rouhaniyat. this is something most people unfortunately cannot understand, so its not your fault.

no amount of "following the imams actions in every way" will benefit you if you do not feel any devotion or love towards them.

shimr himself was a hafiz and complained that his namaz was becoming qazaa...does this somehow make him a good muslim?

[ALI-HAQ 0]

i see the picture

next year it will be no shabeeh to be taken out cuz goreh take the micky

year after no matam cuz goreh think we are crazy

year after no jaloos cuz its pointless

bar lanat on those who stop any form of azadari

they no better than yazid

[iraqi_shia 685]

we can only hope that the imams judge our intentions, not our actions

Strange way to think about it. Why not just do as they advise in actions as well as intentions?

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

Strange way to think about it. Why not just do as they advise in actions as well as intentions?

firstly i think i should remind you of the time during either hazrat musa kazim (as) or imam raza (as), people going to ziarat would have to watch their children being put to death before they could go...yet they continued to go and the imams didnt stop them. is taking our shirts off, or doing zanjeers, a lower or greater sacrifice than that of these people?

secondly, acts of devotion are not bound by the same rules. when you do not understand what someone is feeling, or thinking, or hoping, or more importantly how that act of devotion connects them to their master, then who are you to come along and try and mock them or discourage them?

you set too much importance on actions that other people can see. it says a lot that you care more what other people will think than what those who matter will think. where do your loyalties lie?

finally. how much did namaz, roza etc help the khawarij?

[KaneezeFatimah 0]

(bismillah)

(salam) ,

This is only to raise a discussion of the perfect ways of following the Aima (alahyasallm) in our life as much as we can copy them. I am assuming here that all momeneen want to do that to perfection so this is merely a discussion , not a judgement. WaAllah only Allah knows best of all our intentions and deeds. So I wont bring people like Shimr into this as they never loved Masomeen (alahysallm) to begin with.

How can we be true Shia of Aima (alahaysallm)? What other way than copying them in their Islamic ideal. Surely in the hierarchy of worship, Irfaaan , Rouhaniat the only perfect way is that of Masomeen (alahaysallam). I m in love with the concept of Irfaaan but don’t quite know about when people are dancing around shrines drugged and don’t do their wajibaat or such things which Masomeen (alahaysallam) have placed huge importance on. I cannot judge them as Allah is the best judge, but we know from our traditions which have been narrated and recorded that Masomeen (alahaysallm) did not do this kind of rouhaniaat or love.

Its not about what goras think, that’s not the point. The point is how we can copy the ways of Masomeen (alahysallam) as they are the epitome of perfection for us. If we were alive during their time and saw their grieving surely we would copy them and mirror their actions. Imam Ali (alahaysallm) used to step in the step of Rasool Allah (SAW) literally and not deviate. Surely as Shia we want to and strive to do that too inshAllah. Their ways have been set and recorded and narrated to us, if all Shia followed their ways then our ways would be same in azadari (or any thing else) everywhere and we can achieve more closeness to them inshAllah.

YA FATIMA AL-ZAHRA (alahaysallm)! YA ABA SALEH AL-MAHDI! (AF)

[Oranje 0]

firstly i think i should remind you of the time during either hazrat musa kazim (as) or imam raza (as), people going to ziarat would have to watch their children being put to death before they could go...yet they continued to go and the imams didnt stop them. is taking our shirts off, or doing zanjeers, a lower or greater sacrifice than that of these people?

secondly, acts of devotion are not bound by the same rules. when you do not understand what someone is feeling, or thinking, or hoping, or more importantly how that act of devotion connects them to their master, then who are you to come along and try and mock them or discourage them?

you set too much importance on actions that other people can see. it says a lot that you care more what other people will think than what those who matter will think. where do your loyalties lie?

finally. how much did namaz, roza etc help the khawarij?

[Edited]

some of these people started to issue this (or similar) letter in idara e jaferiya last night half way through the majalis (coincidentally the year JAK reads there) which led to a sudden uproar, things calmed down, and matam still happened for a solid hour, something might happen there tonight

Edited January 2, 2009 by inshaAllah

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

[Note from Mod: Threats of violence removed.]

maula varis about tonight. never let people take away our azadari. things are happening in 404 that you wouldnt even believe to stop it.

Edited January 4, 2009 by YaZahraa`

[SoldierOfIslam 0]

(bismillah)

Any intention that violates the teachings and the laws of Allah swt must not be carried out.Anyone with a few brain cells would know that or maybe some just need to gain some Ilm.

Secondly may Allah swt wipe this earth off with the filth that is in it one these Israelies and 2 these Malangies that are practising their jewish and may christianity heritage.How can one give more priority to chest beating than Salah! for goodness sake use your brains.Imam hussain a.s even when he was being slaughterd and new his time is here DID NOT give up his prayer.Yet these downgraded jahil cursed malangies give more priority to chest beating what planet are these fools from they are so najis for what they practise Imam Ali a.s will never accept them.Take a smoke of spliff and then say Ali Ali! may your tongues be cut off to mention such a honourble Imam on such a impure tongue.

Long live the true followers and preaches of Allah swt laws the true scholars and Allah swt and Imam e Zamana atfh be with people Like Jaan Ali Kazmi.He lashed these stupid ignorant people with verses from quran and hadith their mouths couldnt open then because they are not followers of the jafari fiqh they are the followers of the american agents a bad omen.

sorry to burn you rears but as they say the truth always hurts

ws

[GHULAMEPANJTAN 0]

I forgot to add to my list of things i dislike

Noha Khwans being treated like famous pop stars (im gonna make a separate thread)

Like yesterday at Hammersmith the first brothers reading were doing so well with the nauha and then along comes The Famous Kashif Raza killing it.

Then all the girls and women who were hardly doing matam all of a sudden their hands are moving and a few girls become excited to see him out come the recorders.

How hypocritical of these people moaning about malangs or people who wanna do matam (because that is the point!) and then doing matam just because their fav reciter is reading. What a load of BS. Matam is supposed to be for grief of Imam Hussain not for youre fav reciter.

Im sorry but OP seems to KNOW the intentions of the brothers doing matam in the juloos saying its to show off and nothing else well that it is not obvious. But the actions that i witnessed yesterday and before that were obvious of their intentions (COS their fave reciter is reading) You could hear it from the mens side aswell they were forcing themselves to do it harder and louder.

These people who are dissing malangs give me a hadith where The Masomeen allow Racial Prejudice im referring to those that post dissing pakis, or any type of Prejudice for that matter displayed by Soldier of Islam How dare you who are you to call say that any muslim is jewish. Why are you comparing Salah and matam wheres the competition? Who is anyone on here or anywhere apart from Allah and Masoomeen to judge anyone.

Cos we all are weak mortals and have limited knowledge no matter how learned we are we cannot know what they know NEVER EVER.

People have gained a little knowledge and think they have the right to place fatwas on people stopping them from doing what they do.

Look at the Wahhabis they do exactly what the OP and his saddo friends are doing.

I think hes been discussing with his feminist friends who probarbly have a problem with having to do Hijab and thought to themselves 'hang on why do we have to be covered up when they aren't?'

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

The heart has a reason which the intellect does not attain. The heart bears witness to God's existence, not the intellect; faith comes in this way.

[GHULAMEPANJTAN 0]

Definitely

[iraqi_shia 685]

people going to ziarat would have to watch their children being put to death before they could go...yet they continued to go and the imams didnt stop them

Can you provide some refferences for this.

secondly, acts of devotion are not bound by the same rules

So what are the rules? are you saying islamic doesnt cover the pakistani form of mourning? so can you drink alcohol as well when you are mourning?

you set too much importance on actions that other people can see. it says a lot that you care more what other people will think than what those who matter will think. where do your loyalties lie?

I find this ironic. On the one side there is a group who is insisting on stripping half naked and violently attacking themselves in public, and the other side is saying we should mourn according to islamic traditions. I think the facts say it all.

finally. how much did namaz, roza etc help the khawarij?

They ignored the guidance of our Imams AS and thought they knew better, they followed their own minds and culture. They are a shambles, reminds me of a group round here....

Edited January 2, 2009 by iraqi_shia

[The_Reaper 2]

firstly i think i should remind you of the time during either hazrat musa kazim (as) or imam raza (as), people going to ziarat would have to watch their children being put to death before they could go...yet they continued to go and the imams didnt stop them. is taking our shirts off, or doing zanjeers, a lower or greater sacrifice than that of these people?

THis is not the issue in question here, we are talking about DISTORTING and DAMAGING the face of Islam, in front of people who have no background or knowledge fo what you are doing.

Taking your shirts off, in a society which is not accustomed to such MANNER will find it derogotary, and will result in them HAVING A ISCONCEPTED view of Islam.

This is NOT RELEVANT as when they were going for Ziaraat, every1 knew why and for WHAT REASON, whereas the issue is completely DIFFERENT over here.

secondly, acts of devotion are not bound by the same rules. when you do not understand what someone is feeling, or thinking, or hoping, or more importantly how that act of devotion connects them to their master, then who are you to come along and try and mock them or discourage them?

Devotion has its limits.

There is a limit to everything, one cannot go damagin and degrading a religion, which has set is rules and regulation for it too be broken and disregarded and on top off it present a shocking view to others who are witnessing it.

you set too much importance on actions that other people can see. it says a lot that you care more what other people will think than what those who matter will think. where do your loyalties lie?

THis is NOT A QUESTION OF LOYALTIES,

this is a question of PRESERVING THE PURE FACE OF ISlam, by the action of removing ur shirts it DAMAGES, DISTORTS, DEVALUES the conception of Islam by non-Muslims, it throws misconceptions into their minds along with false judgements.

We have told you this MANY times, yet you still do not care.

i see the picture

next year it will be no shabeeh to be taken out cuz goreh take the micky

year after no matam cuz goreh think we are crazy

year after no jaloos cuz its pointless

bar lanat on those who stop any form of azadari

they no better than yazid

Bro,

if you had the respect of reading this thread before you jump in with your comment,

you would have realised we have no intention of stopping azadari,

just do your matam with your shirts on. Not off.

[KomaiLiamoK 0]

It's the way we understand things from the Quran. Back then they understood it differently then what we do now. It doesn't matter what we do or say as long as whatever is in our hearts are meant to be good/bad. Obviously if your intention is bad you have committed a sin and have to show remorse to Allah and seek forgiveness. Essentially, it is what are intentions are overall.

Edited January 3, 2009 by KomaiLiamoK

[ShiaSoldier@2007 110]

firstly i think i should remind you of the time during either hazrat musa kazim (as) or imam raza (as), people going to ziarat would have to watch their children being put to death before they could go...yet they continued to go and the imams didnt stop them. is taking our shirts off, or doing zanjeers, a lower or greater sacrifice than that of these people?

secondly, acts of devotion are not bound by the same rules. when you do not understand what someone is feeling, or thinking, or hoping, or more importantly how that act of devotion connects them to their master, then who are you to come along and try and mock them or discourage them?

you set too much importance on actions that other people can see. it says a lot that you care more what other people will think than what those who matter will think. where do your loyalties lie?

finally. how much did namaz, roza etc help the khawarij?

Yup and there were miracles of the kids coming back to life which just goes to show imam cares about his ummah :cry:

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

Rofl,

i think your the fool here.

Were not talking about doing matam,

there are a handful from each Pakistani centre who takes off their shirts,

oh REALLY? so do enlighten me. what ARE you talking about?

Exactly, so no one approves of it.

that was sarcasm. muppet.

+ for a whole host of reasons,

which i shall not dwell into.

and that has WHAT to do with this thread?

[The_Reaper 2]

Quote

oh REALLY? so do enlighten me. what ARE you talking about?

ABOUT TAKING YOUR SHIRTS OFF,

sigh

its like talking to a brick wall sometimes.

Quote

that was sarcasm. muppet.

lol reali.

didnt thought u 'serious' people knew what sarcasm was

Quote

and that has WHAT to do with this thread?

and what has threatening to beat up members of a youth organization got to do with anything ?

Quote

after the battle royal in idara jafferia...uk mallangs are on FIRE. and they ALL know about this baqwaas letter, and are coming to the manchester jaloos, AND 404, for the last few days. if theres even a HINT of anyone trying to raise any issues like the ones on this thread, or saying a pretty little speech on the mimbar, then the mallangs will descend on him like the wrath of god.

Rofl, if u think thrashing up a a idara, and giving death threats to Maulans means mallangs are Fire,

you have no meaning to life if you think that.

And ur 'london crew' have nothing betta to do than come down to Manchester, rather than address issues problems in their own backyard, they are coming down to Manc to 'sort' out problems here.

Lol, tell em to sort their own place out first.