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Gepetto_Zapata

Know yourself...

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Imam Ali (a.s.) said: "Know yourself in order to know Allah (a.j.)."

I can't grasp what that means... Does it just mean to know that I as a human being, am nothing in front of Allah (a.j.) ? A mere simple weak creation created by a simple word (Be !)... I can't think about any other meaning...

What can be a simple way to define the saying ? What does knowing yourself mean here ?

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Well know yourself habeeby.

I KNOW that if I go into my class and sit near girls then I will want to talk to them and I'll be thinking about that. Similarly I KNOW that if I sit in the back of the class I will probably give a glance every now & then at the girls, instead of the lecturer! Therefore I won't sit in the back of the room.

Know your strengths & weaknesses.

Then you can become a better person, and KNOW Allah(SWT).

That's the way I interperetted it. But what you just said is an extremely beneficial way to interpret it too!

Edited by muhammad_follower

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Imam Ali (a.s.) said: "Know yourself in order to know Allah (a.j.)."

I can't grasp what that means... Does it just mean to know that I as a human being, am nothing in front of Allah (a.j.) ? A mere simple weak creation created by a simple word (Be !)... I can't think about any other meaning...

What can be a simple way to define the saying ? What does knowing yourself mean here ?

Al Salam 3alaykom,

Ask Allah (swt) for guidance. Show you are worthy of heaven to Allah (swt), do what is good and forbid of what is evil. Two parts to the soul, good and bad part, if the bad part overcomes the good part you are but lost and have been driven away from the right path. If your good part is better than you bad part then you are you are doing what Allah (swt) as ordered you to do. The soul deep inside every person is seeking what is the reason for us being here, Alhamdullah Allah (swt) has given us Islam. We are here merely to prove to Allah (swt) that we are worthy of heaven, and prove that the shaitan (la3anahu Allah) has no authority over the good people who believe in Allah (swt). And that the Shaitan (la3anhu Allah) and his followers will all be casted into hell. I suggest you go and read Qisas Al 2anbiya2, "stories of the Prophets". And inshallah Allah (swt) will help you in finding what answers you seek for. Keep this in mind, we are but servants to Allah (swt) who in turn loves us, and has promised us good things, even though we suffer in this life sometimes, and people try to misguide us, but if you from deep inside ask Allah (swt) for help, Allah (swt) will answer. Allah (swt) loves the patient people.

Wa Salamu 3alaykom wa ra7matu Allah Wa barakato

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Well know yourself habeeby.

I KNOW that if I go into my class and sit near girls then I will want to talk to them and I'll be thinking about that. Similarly I KNOW that if I sit in the back of the class I will probably give a glance every now & then at the girls, instead of the lecturer! Therefore I won't sit in the back of the room.

Know your strengths & weaknesses.

Then you can become a better person, and KNOW Allah(SWT).

That's the way I interpreted it. But what you just said is an extremely beneficial way to interpret it too!

Ameen!

I agree with how this brother interpreted it.

Besides knowing your strengths and weaknesses, I think it means about understanding the soul and its state, and endeavoring to change it through jihad upon the nafs & Shaitan, as well as through gnosis. We need to listen to the voice of the fitrah and separate it from the whisperings of the shayteen that enter our minds; that way we can understand what path is the best for us and what isn't.

May Allah help us all in this regard, ameen

Wa salaam

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Thanks for your replies guys, but i don't know, I'm just not that satisfied yet... I mean, anyone can start to "know" his self or at least try starting to "know" his self, strenghts and weaknesses, likes and dislikes, etc... even atheists... but that doesn't change anything in them...

I think there must be something more to the sentence...

Look at Buddhists, they try to "know" theirselves as much as they can... but are still mushriks... People who meditate and perform yoga try "knowing" theirselves just for relaxation...

So I still don't see any link between knowing yourself in order to know Allah (a.j.)... What's the philosophy here ?

LoOoL muhammad_follower...habeeby ??? Hehehe...

Edited by ahmedjaffal

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Well know yourself habeeby.

I KNOW that if I go into my class and sit near girls then I will want to talk to them and I'll be thinking about that. Similarly I KNOW that if I sit in the back of the class I will probably give a glance every now & then at the girls, instead of the lecturer! Therefore I won't sit in the back of the room.

:lol:

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Imam Ali (a.s.) said: "Know yourself in order to know Allah (a.j.)."

I can't grasp what that means... Does it just mean to know that I as a human being, am nothing in front of Allah (a.j.) ? A mere simple weak creation created by a simple word (Be !)... I can't think about any other meaning...

What can be a simple way to define the saying ? What does knowing yourself mean here ?

To know who you are means to know what it means to be human. And to know what it means to be human is itself being and living as a human. The reason for this is because at a metaphysical level 'to know something' is the same as 'to embody it or to live it'. Now the question is what does it mean to be human! To be human it to live up to the Divine Trust or Responsibility (Amanah) that we are burdened with ". It is the Trust which the heavens, the earth and everything between them could not carry. What is this Trust? it is spirit of God he has breathed into all of us. and this spirit is simply that which enables us to manifest God's attributes. To know yourself simply means to get in touch which this spirit which enables us to transmute our bad qualities into sacred qualities. And this very transmutation of bad qualities into good qualities is essentially what it means to know God! nothing more (in my opinion)

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To know who you are means to know what it means to be human. And to know what it means to be human is itself being and living as a human. The reason for this is because at a metaphysical level 'to know something' is the same as 'to embody it or to live it'. Now the question is what does it mean to be human! To be human it to live up to the Divine Trust or Responsibility (Amanah) that we are burdened with ". It is the Trust which the heavens, the earth and everything between them could not carry. What is this Trust? it is spirit of God he has breathed into all of us. and this spirit is simply that which enables us to manifest God's attributes. To know yourself simply means to get in touch which this spirit which enables us to transmute our bad qualities into sacred qualities. And this very transmutation of bad qualities into good qualities is essentially what it means to know God! nothing more (in my opinion)

(salam)

AMEEN bro and well said.

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Salam,

Human beings are made of two basic substances, Noor (which is connected to the essence of Allah (s.w.a.) ) and "clay". If you read more about the concept of the "Noor" of Allah (s.w.a.) in the Quran, you will understand that this is a direct reflection of the essence of the Creator (a.s.). This Noor is also a part of our essence as well.

By understanding the part of our essence which is connected to Allah (s.w.a) we move closer to Allah (s.w.a.) and understand our Creator.

Salam

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Salam,

Human beings are made of two basic substances, Noor (which is connected to the essence of Allah (s.w.a.) ) and "clay". If you read more about the concept of the "Noor" of Allah (s.w.a.) in the Quran, you will understand that this is a direct reflection of the essence of the Creator (a.s.). This Noor is also a part of our essence as well.

By understanding the part of our essence which is connected to Allah (s.w.a) we move closer to Allah (s.w.a.) and understand our Creator.

Salam

I have heard also, that we are made of 4 substances/ 4 elements [ earth, water, fire, spirit ] compared to the jinn who is made of only one or two elements [ fire and spirit I believe ]. I can't remember teh source of this hadith but if I find it I will post it. Ibn Sina alluded to this in his medical treatises:

"Avicenna based his system of medicine on the equilibrium of the four humors (following Hippocrates): blood, phlegm, yellow bile, and black bile. These four humors were then related to the four elements (fire, air, water, and earth) of the natural world. Avicenna believed that the human spirit has been constituted with the power of restoring balance in the body..."

source

The four elements corresponds to teh material, vegetable essences, etheric and mineral bodies of man in Alchemical/ Hermetic thought. Essentially we can know ourself by uniting these conflicting elements of our body, and as bro ethereal sed, by separating the good from the bad, or as in alchemical thought, by 'fission'; separating the gold from the lead. Very interesting IMO, just thought I would share this.

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Knowledge is a broad term of knowing yourself and the surrounding environment and the relationship between entities of the universe ... understanding those elements will reach us to an understanding of the creation and therefore realize that there is one creator. God is beyond knowing and how much we tried we will never reach such knowledge therefore we base our knowledge of God for those who know God that is Ahlul Bayt (as).

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Similarly I KNOW that if I sit in the back of the class I will probably give a glance every now & then at the girls, instead of the lecturer!

Forget that, I had to sit at the back of the class to make sure I wouldn't be glancing at the lecturer........she was fwiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!!!

And I'm lucky I was in a boys school, but I did used to wonder about one or two fellow pupils who would purposely sit at the back and NOT glance at the lecturer!! YA SMELL ME!!!?????????

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Look at Buddhists, they try to "know" theirselves as much as they can... but are still mushriks... People who meditate and perform yoga try "knowing" theirselves just for relaxation...

So I still don't see any link between knowing yourself in order to know Allah (a.j.)... What's the philosophy here ?

LoOoL muhammad_follower...habeeby ??? Hehehe...

Buddhists are not mushriks :)

In fact they emphasize knowledge of the self the same way Muslims emphasize self-knowledge. And that goes for Confucians as well.

The very fact that Buddhists strive to transmute their bad qualities (which are ego centered) into good qualities (which are Divine) shows their belief in God. To truly perform good means to perform good without you thinking that you are the one performing that good deed. because to think you are the one doing good is self-centered. and this ego-self is precisely what Buddhists and Muslims aim to destroy. This goodness itself is not your attribute but God's attribute. The very fact that one sees goodness and does good things without the ego (without thinking that it is his or anyone else's), shows that he/she believes in God.

:)

take care

MK

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Salam,

Budhist are mushriks. They play drums and do mantra and thigns what they do are not orderer by any Prophet of Allah. You dont have to believe Creator to be budhist. If you say that only doing good deeds is act of faith, then that is not what Quran tolds us, but Quran tolds us that acts of faith are those deeds that are commanded by Allah. If person does not do what Allah says, then all other good deeds are vain.

Edited by Ali Askari

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Salam,

Budhist are mushriks. They play drums and do mantra and thigns what they do are not orderer by any Prophet of Allah. You dont have to believe Creator to be budhist. If you say that only doing good deeds is act of faith, then that is not what Quran tolds us, but Quran tolds us that acts of faith are those deeds that are commanded by Allah. If person does not do what Allah says, then all other good deeds are vain.

Doing good deeds in a selfless way = belief in God.

What else can belief in God be? having an 'idea' of God? but that doesn't seem right. it surely isn't right.

Edited by eThErEaL

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Salam,

Human beings are made of two basic substances, Noor (which is connected to the essence of Allah (s.w.a.) ) and "clay". If you read more about the concept of the "Noor" of Allah (s.w.a.) in the Quran, you will understand that this is a direct reflection of the essence of the Creator (a.s.). This Noor is also a part of our essence as well.

By understanding the part of our essence which is connected to Allah (s.w.a) we move closer to Allah (s.w.a.) and understand our Creator.

Salam

This is a Sufi view and not a Shi'i one.

If you claim that it is, then I would like you to post ahadith which talk about our essence being a part of Allah's essence.

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Selaamun alykum,

dear brother /sister, im not a scholar or a very learned person....but i am trying to potray whati understand the meaning behind understanding oneself and then understanding Allah...

i feel this quote of imam ali is best mentioned in Dua-e-kumail and in munajat of imam ali...

i feel that we as humanbeings know majority of the times what is good and bad for us...well majority of the times but then sometimes why is it that humanbeing still does soemthing which he/she will know has a bad impact on the body and on the soul?

if you think about it...whilst listening to any type of duaa or poetry of Allah if listened to it very carefully without bringing any worldly thoughts into it, you mind will be taken to a different level whilst listening to it...i dont know how to explain, it feels as if you and your soul are in some very deep converstaion and you will feel some type of satisfaction at the precise moment of time, but as soon as that dua or poetry on ahulubayt is finished you like snap out...its not Nasha (hallucination)

i feel that inoder to understand Allah yes one has to understand that the attributes that the humanbeing has HAS come from Allah, but i feel that inoder to understand this we have to fully believe that Allah exists and not just believe it for the sake of believe it...

i hope this has made some sense, but if it hasnt then am sorry for the inconivinence :unsure:

do take care

Ma'asalaam

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This is a Sufi view and not a Shi'i one.

If you claim that it is, then I would like you to post ahadith which talk about our essence being a part of Allah's essence.

Salam,

(bismillah)

" Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

15:28-29

(bismillah)

" So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obedience to him."(38:72)

I am simply quoting the Quran (not hadith). It is obvious that the fact that Allah (s.w.a.) has breathed into us "his spirit" does not mean that we are somehow equal to (astafirallah!) or part of Allah (s.w.a). It means that we possess intelligence and wisdom which are of a different quality and substance then the other things we are aware of. It also means that we (as human beings) possess the potential to be "higher (i.e., superior in the eye's of Allah (s.w.a.) then the angels..." Again, this does not (in any sense) make as equal to Allah (s.w.a.), however, it means that we share certain qualities (but to a far lower degree, of course) with Allah (s.w.a.) which allows us the potential to move nearer to Him (a.s.).

Of course, this is just my personal opinion, which is based on my understanding of the verses of the Quran which I have quoted above. If someone can bring me a scholarly tafseer which contradicts this I will certainly reconsider my view.

Salam,

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Buddhists are not mushriks :)

In fact they emphasize knowledge of the self the same way Muslims emphasize self-knowledge. And that goes for Confucians as well.

The very fact that Buddhists strive to transmute their bad qualities (which are ego centered) into good qualities (which are Divine) shows their belief in God. To truly perform good means to perform good without you thinking that you are the one performing that good deed. because to think you are the one doing good is self-centered. and this ego-self is precisely what Buddhists and Muslims aim to destroy. This goodness itself is not your attribute but God's attribute. The very fact that one sees goodness and does good things without the ego (without thinking that it is his or anyone else's), shows that he/she believes in God.

:)

take care

MK

Nicely pointed out :).

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Doing good deeds in a selfless way = belief in God.

What else can belief in God be? having an 'idea' of God? but that doesn't seem right. it surely isn't right.

Salam,

As far as I know, buddists do not believe in "God" (as we understand it). Even if they have a vague notion of a "greater power", they do not have any system for worshiping God. As a result, all of their effort is directed at self-improvement.

While this is not a bad thing, it is not sufficient. As Muslims, we seek to understand Allah (s.w.a.) and what he requires of us by reading his message to us. (i.e., The Holy Quran and teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (a.s.) and his Ahly Al'Bay). Since Buddists seek have a "path" but no clear goal and no system of worship their "deen" is insufficient. As a result, those who follow this path and call other's to it are promoting a "defective product" that will not result in ultimate success (i.e., entrance into Jennah) for it's followers.

Salam

Edited by Abu Ali 2

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Salam,

As far as I know, buddists do not believe in "God" (as we understand it). Even if they have a vague notion of a "greater power", they do not have any system for worshiping God. As a result, all of their effort is directed at self-improvement.

While this is not a bad thing, it is not sufficient. As Muslims, we seek to understand Allah (s.w.a.) and what he requires of us by reading his message to us. (i.e., The Holy Quran and teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (a.s.) and his Ahly Al'Bay). Since Buddists seek have a "path" but no clear goal and no system of worship their "deen" is insufficient. As a result, those who follow this path and call other's to it are promoting a "defective product" that will not result in ultimate success (i.e., entrance into Jennah) for it's followers.

Salam

Salaam

What does it mean to worship God? and what does it mean to know God? what more is there to religion (particularly in Islam) than self-improvement? isnt knowing God all about self-improvement? isnt knowing God about naughting the ego-self? isnt knowing God all about manifesting His attributes through us? We follow the sunnah of Rasool (S) for self-improvement as well. they follow the Buddha. they dont need a "written scripture" like we do, orally transmitted scripture is just as fine as far as they should be concerned. I dont think ppl who call themselves 'Muslims' are the only ones capable on entering God's jennah/ mercy.

:)

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Doing good deeds in a selfless way = belief in God.

What else can belief in God be? having an 'idea' of God? but that doesn't seem right. it surely isn't right.

Salam aleikum

Selfless actions are not selfless if they are not done for Allah and because of Allah. In reality they would be egoistic. Faith in God is to believe in God and his messenger, his book and guard against evil. Budhist dont believe any of thise things, but they have all own ideas about "karma" and reincarnation. That is not belief in God. That is not even being selfless in a way how Islam teach. Selfless does not mean purely making sacriface, because people can make sacriface for evil cause, and act in a cause of evil totally whitout getting any use for it. For example, some do evil works for others.

Our idea of Creator and theology of Islam is nothing like Budhism, and they are mushirks clearly.

Salam.

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Salaam

What does it mean to worship God? and what does it mean to know God? what more is there to religion (particularly in Islam) than self-improvement? isnt knowing God all about self-improvement? isnt knowing God about naughting the ego-self? isnt knowing God all about manifesting His attributes through us? We follow the sunnah of Rasool (S) for self-improvement as well. they follow the Buddha. they dont need a "written scripture" like we do, orally transmitted scripture is just as fine as far as they should be concerned. I dont think ppl who call themselves 'Muslims' are the only ones capable on entering God's jennah/ mercy.

:)

Salam,

First step and root of all roots in ibadah is to obey only Allah. Budhist are not trying to obey Allah so they are not doing acts of worship from Islamic point of wiev. They are onyl doing what they consider to be good, that is egoistic point of view. Those who dont obey Allah, and deny his messenger and books have not done any good deed, but only bad and evil. Knowining God is to recognize Him (SWT) to be only worthy of worshipping and thanking. Those who deny Islam or any prophet of Allah will have no place in paradise.

Edited by Ali Askari

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Selfless actions are not selfless if they are not done for Allah and because of Allah. In reality they would be egoistic.

So you agree with me then. You have just affirmed what i have said: so something done selflessly is what it means to believe in God.

But they have all own ideas about "karma" and reincarnation. That is not belief in God.

Don't we believe in karma? "whatever misfortune that befalls you is what your own hands have done" Koran.

And reincarnation: People on the D of J people will be raised as animals or as humans depending on their deeds (Karma).

In essence i find what they believe and we what be believe to be pretty much the same. Of course there are differences, but that is what makes them a different religion at the end of the day. By the way, not all Buddhists believe that people will be born again in this world. So you have to consider that. but i see that the essence is all the same. i mean, do you personally feel like you understand well about the D of J? I don't believe anyone who inst perfect understands properly the D of J. our limited understanding of the D of J could be as defective as a buddhists. after all, people (the avg muslim) usually imagine the day of judgment to be a world similar like this one even though they are told that the D of J isnt anything that you can imagine. But still the avg muslim will have some sort of 'idea' or 'conception' of the D of J which more or less resembles this world. In a sense you can, "strictly speaking", accuse him or her that he believes in the idea of rebirth or reincarnation into this world. be careful how you read what i am saying. pls dont misread!

That is not even being selfless in a way how Islam teach. Selfless does not mean purely making sacriface, because people can make sacriface for evil cause, and act in a cause of evil totally whitout getting any use for it. For example, some do evil works for others.

this point has no relevance to our topic. Buddhists are not evil doers anyway. and Buddhists do GOOD things (not evil things) for the sake of the good itself not for the sake of something useless.

Our idea of Creator and theology of Islam is nothing like Budhism, and they are mushirks clearly.

maybe you should study Buddhism.

Edited by eThErEaL

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Salam,

So you agree with me then. You have just affirmed what i have said: to something selflessly is to believe in God.

Budhist are not doing things because of Allah´s order and that nulify all their doings.

'Don't we believe in karma?

No, We dont believe in karma. We believe in day of judgement and eternal reward and punishment as main docrtine of Oneness of God. If person does not believe in day of judgement, then he or she dont believe in God. Their idea is to get Nirvana or be stug in circle of reincarnation.

this point has no relevance to our topic. Buddhists are not evil doers anyway. and Buddhists do GOOD things (not evil things) for the sake of the good itself not for the sake of something useless.

If they make punishment because of crime, and it is other than degree of Allah, and they think that it is good, then their actions are evil and thei are concidering evil as good. To give example, if some "high monk" is telling others to give wrong punishment according law of Allah, and monks are obeying this High monk out of selfless actions and sacrifice, still they would all be doing evil. Even they would themselves concider it being "non egoistic" and "selfless" actions. In reality it would be purely egoistic, evil and against believe in God. Believe in God begins from understanding Allah One, and He is only one to be obeyed and believing in his books and messengers. Budhist are far away from this. And they are mushrisk from Islamic point of wiev.

maybe you should study Buddhism.

Maybe you should study Islam, meaning, by studying Islam you would come to know that Islam concider Budhist to be non-religious poeple who have no any faith in God nor in God´s religion.

Edited by Ali Askari

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Salaam

So you agree with me then. You have just affirmed what i have said: to something selflessly is to believe in God.

Budhist are not doing things because of Allah´s order and that nulify all their doings.

but according to your logic (our logic), they should believe in God since they do things selflessly. why do you accuse them of not believing in God? You have the right logic. but you aren't really applying it correctly.

No, We dont believe in karma. We believe in day of judgement and eternal reward and punishment as main docrtine of Oneness of God. If person does not believe in day of judgement, then he or she dont believe in God. Their idea is to get Nirvana or be stug in circle of reincarnation.

yes. in essence it is the same. the reason is found in the answer to the question: what is the essence of belief in D of J? is it merely to have an 'imagination' of it? answer: NO!

The fact of the matter is this: the D of J is in reality God's Eternal Knowledge of things. Our position or status or state of affairs on the D of J is how God knows us in His Eternal Knowledge. The D of J, in other words, is simply who we really are! And Buddhists aim for this. They aim for knowing things as they truly are. So who are we to say that they are mushriks!

Maybe you should study Islam, meaning, by studying Islam you would come to know that Islam concider Budhist to be non-religious poeple who have no any faith in God nor in God´s religion.

Maybe you should think of why I choose to be a Muslim. If i thought Islam was the way you imagine it to be, I wouldn't be a Muslim right now. But i still respect your views on Islam.

Edited by eThErEaL

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but according to your logic (our logic), they should believe in God since they do things selflessly

They dont do things selflessly, but because of their own ideas. They have no degree from Allah that they are obeying, but they are obeying purely own ideas. That is egoistic. This means that you have misunderstood my saying 2 times now. Please try again now. They are not doing selfess actions, because they are not obeying God, but they are defining good as they like and evil as they like. It is Allah who has told as what is good and what is evil and because they are not following any religion from Allah, thats why they are considered to be mushrir. That is Islamic wiev about them.

Maybe you should think of why I choose to be a Muslim. If i thought Islam was the way you imagine it to be, I wouldn't be a Muslim right now. But i still respect your views on Islam.'

Sorry to hear this.

Edited by Ali Askari

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but according to your logic (our logic), they should believe in God since they do things selflessly

They dont do things selflessly, but because of their own ideas. They have no degree from Allah that they are obeying, but they are obeying purely own ideas. That is egoistic. This means that you have misunderstood my saying 2 times now. Please try again now. They are not doing selfess actions, because they are not obeying God, but they are defining good as they like and evil as they like. It is Allah who has told as what is good and what is evil.

no, they don't even believe in having 'their own' ideas. remember they don't even believe in an abiding self. so, don't accuse them of things which they say they don't believe in. Unless u claim you can see their hearts?

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no, they don't even believe in having 'their own' ideas. remember they don't even believe in an abiding self. so, don't accuse them of things which they say they don't believe in. Unless u claim you can see their hearts?

This is statement of confusion. Either they have own ideas, or their ideas are from Allah´s religion. Even the idea of "not having idea# is their own idea and its not from Allah. I dont have to see heart of those poeple. That is unfair of you. They follow their own ideas and own methods of belief, when they play drums, or meditate of depate or do other rites, all of them are their own ideas. Karma and re-incarnation is their own idea. Their justice system is their own idea. They are not from Allah, and not from Allahs religion. This is what "own ideas" mean, that when something is not from religion of Allah, and His messengers then its peoples own ideas.

Clearly Budhism is based on human ideas and it is purely human idealogy and human made system. Thats why they are concidered to be mushrik according Islamic view.

Edited by Ali Askari

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This is statement of confusion. Either they have own ideas, or their ideas are from Allah´s religion. Even the idea of "not having idea# is their own idea and its not from Allah. I dont have to see heart of those poeple. That is unfair of you. They follow their own ideas and own methods of belief, when they play drums, or meditate of depate or do other rites, all of them are their own ideas. Karma and re-incarnation is their own idea. Their justice system is their own idea. They are not from Allah, and not from Allahs religion. This is what "own ideas" mean, that when something is not from religion of Allah, and His messengers then its peoples own ideas.

Clearly Budhism is based on human ideas and it is purely human idealogy and human made system. Thats why they are concidered to be mushrik according Islamic view.

God is the only non-idea. ideas = quiddity (mahiyyah). non-idea = wujud.

i m not confused. ^that is what i was ultimately talking about really.

their shariah is different from our shariah obviously. so is Judaism and christianty ect..

This doesnt mean they are mushriks.

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