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snafial

A Discussion About Imamah

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I will try to make this post as simple as possible and please let’s not try to “get smart” at each other. Since the Iamamah is the most important pillar in Shiasm and because of it the shia scholars are calling sunnis KAFIRS, do you think it is unreasonable for us to ask for a proof? While we see prayers, zakah…etc mentioned in the Quran, we don’t see any clear mention of Imamah in the Quran. So, please provide me with the verse that makes the Shia scholars so convinced of Imamah that they consider those who do not believe in it Kafirs?

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ws

We dont believe you are kafirs. Those scholars that did are a minority, and there are plenty of sunni scholars who say shias are kafir.

http://slaveofali.wordpress.com/ahlul-bayt/

Unfortunately, that’s not true. The majority of shia scholars consider Imamah to be part of Usool-e-Deen and rejecting it means that you are out of the circle of Islam (I’m talking about scholars from Al-kulaini till Sistani). But that’s exactly what I want to ask about. Why is it part of Usool-e-Deen? So, let’s focus on this aspect of the discussion.

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Bro all of our top Ulema have websites that let you ask Qs. I suggest you ask them whether they consider sunnis muslims or not if you dont believe me.

As far as it being one of the Usul al Din, there are two ways that this has been explained according to my knowledge. The first is to say that its actually Usul AlMath-hab (one of the principles of the sect), not strictly speaking Usul AlDin (one of the principles of religion), so you can deny it but not deny the religion in the process. Thats the approach taken by some scholars.

The second is to say it is part of usul AlDin, but it has many dimensions. Imamah is the Ahlul Bayt's right to be loved, followed in politics, followed in religion (unconditionally) and taken as spiritual masters. To be a kafir you need to deny all of these dimensions, and this would include their right to be loved by all muslims for example. Sunnis dont deny all of them, so they still believe in Imamah on a very basic level, and this means they're still Muslims.

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Bro all of our top Ulema have websites that let you ask Qs. I suggest you ask them whether they consider sunnis muslims or not if you dont believe me.

As far as it being one of the Usul al Din, there are two ways that this has been explained according to my knowledge. The first is to say that its actually Usul AlMath-hab (one of the principles of the sect), not strictly speaking Usul AlDin (one of the principles of religion), so you can deny it but not deny the religion in the process. Thats the approach taken by some scholars.

The second is to say it is part of usul AlDin, but it has many dimensions. Imamah is the Ahlul Bayt's right to be loved, followed in politics, followed in religion (unconditionally) and taken as spiritual masters. To be a kafir you need to deny all of these dimensions, and this would include their right to be loved by all muslims for example. Sunnis dont deny all of them, so they still believe in Imamah on a very basic level, and this means they're still Muslims.

Thanks for your good spirit and I think that you are honest. But we do have a problem here that cannot be resolved unless we stop flattering each (don’t mean yourself). Now, do I want to create a problem from nothing while you are telling me that Sunnis are Muslims? of course not. But a problem clearly exists when:

1) We see masjids for Sunnis and masjids for Shia.

2) We see that we stopped sharing the simplest rituals of Islam, like celebrating the Eid together or praying Fridays together.

3) We have Shia that say “we should free Mecca and Madinah from the Sunnis”

4) We see that our prayers, fasting, marriage, and even aqeedah are different.

Now, is that the religion of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)? Do you think that if the Prophet (pbuh) was amongst us he would be happy?

That’s why we should confront our traditions that have nothing to do with Islam, and that have only divided us, one of which is considering Imamah as Asl in the Deen. You answered by saying it is not, but what do you say to the following quotes:

1) From Al-shia.com: Imam Al-Saduk says:“Our belief is that the one who rejects the Imamah of Ameer al Mumineen [Ali] and the Aimmah (Imams) after him, has the same position like the one who rejects the Prophethood of the Prophets.” And Al-Mufeed said: ““The Imamiyyah [shia] are in agreement (’Ijma) that the one who rejects the Imamah of one Imam and rejects the obedience to them which Allah ordered is a misguided Kaffir deserving to remain in Hell-Fire forever.”

So, let's try to discuss the main point in this post: "Is there a verse that gives Imamah such a status in Islam?"

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Thanks for your good spirit and I think that you are honest. But we do have a problem here that cannot be resolved unless we stop flattering each (don’t mean yourself). Now, do I want to create a problem from nothing while you are telling me that Sunnis are Muslims? of course not. But a problem clearly exists when:

1) We see masjids for Sunnis and masjids for Shia.

2) We see that we stopped sharing the simplest rituals of Islam, like celebrating the Eid together or praying Fridays together.

3) We have Shia that say “we should free Mecca and Madinah from the Sunnis”

4) We see that our prayers, fasting, marriage, and even aqeedah are different.

Now, is that the religion of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)? Do you think that if the Prophet (pbuh) was amongst us he would be happy?

That’s why we should confront our traditions that have nothing to do with Islam, and that have only divided us, one of which is considering Imamah as Asl in the Deen. You answered by saying it is not, but what do you say to the following quotes:

1) From Al-shia.com: Imam Al-Saduk says:“Our belief is that the one who rejects the Imamah of Ameer al Mumineen [Ali] and the Aimmah (Imams) after him, has the same position like the one who rejects the Prophethood of the Prophets.” And Al-Mufeed said: ““The Imamiyyah [shia] are in agreement (’Ijma) that the one who rejects the Imamah of one Imam and rejects the obedience to them which Allah ordered is a misguided Kaffir deserving to remain in Hell-Fire forever.”

So, let's try to discuss the main point in this post: "Is there a verse that gives Imamah such a status in Islam?"

bro just an innocent question: how much do you know about Imamat?

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Oh i was just wondering how much do you know about the concept of Imamat? like the reason for it, who are they...

Well, I know quite enough, But not enough to be convinced that not believing in Imamah is a reason for calling someone Kafir. This is the main purpose of this post: should Shia have the right to include Imamah in the five Usool of Adeen? And should the shia scholars have the right to call nonbelievers in Imamah (sunnis) kafirs? To start up the discussion, please provide me with the proofs (from whichever source you want) that states Imamah as part of Islam.

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Well, I know quite enough, But not enough to be convinced that not believing in Imamah is a reason for calling someone Kafir. This is the main purpose of this post: should Shia have the right to include Imamah in the five Usool of Adeen? And should the shia scholars have the right to call nonbelievers in Imamah (sunnis) kafirs? To start up the discussion, please provide me with the proofs (from whichever source you want) that states Imamah as part of Islam.

I will try to help... once i talked to a scholar about it and he said that the main usool were Tawheed and Adal in the beginning, than he explained why was that it had something to do with Sunnis not listening to it saying that how people can have adal without naboot and vice versa, so we later added the other branches into the Usool...

I later asked him that one's purpose is to know and understand Allah(swt) and strive to get close to him... to do this one needs to know Imam's as they are the hujjat of Allah(swt) and by knowing them we can try to understand what Allah(swt) wants from us... he said thats not true, and explained that what if a person comes out of a cave who doesnt know whats right and wrong, how could he even understand the concept of Imamat... yes ones purpose is to know Allah(swt) and obey him through whatever means necessary and we shias believe Imam's are the best examples for it to be followed, as they are infalliables, but not following them doesnt mean one will end in hell...

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I will try to make this post as simple as possible and please let’s not try to “get smart” at each other. Since the Iamamah is the most important pillar in Shiasm and because of it the shia scholars are calling sunnis KAFIRS, do you think it is unreasonable for us to ask for a proof? While we see prayers, zakah…etc mentioned in the Quran, we don’t see any clear mention of Imamah in the Quran. So, please provide me with the verse that makes the Shia scholars so convinced of Imamah that they consider those who do not believe in it Kafirs?

"If the Khulafa'a are fallible leaders as you say; meaning that they can make mistakes in the religious, political, an social fabric of Islamic anthropology; why is rejecting them as leaders is termed 'Fisq' (or even Kufr)?" Quote from a different thread.

What does Imamah mean? Who was most Knowledgeble of the Quran after Al Nabiy Al 2a3zam Muhammad (saaws)? Imamah is part of Usul Al din, Important in the aspect of continuation and safe guarding of the religion of islam to the right path, after what Al Nabi Muhammad (saaws) have established through the word of Allah (swt). As represented by Imam Hussien (a.s), Imams (alayhum al salam) sacrificed their whole lives and sold the worldly treasures and positions, to live in the way of Allah, and guide people to what Allah (SWT) wanted. One thing to remember is that we are followers of the 12 Imams (alyahum alsalam), Mujtahideen of our time are not our imams, they are but followers as well, who are not perfect, and in Arabic we say Ijtahada fa 2akhta2, meaning "scholars studied and made a mistake". You have the choice, Our Imams gave bay3a or gave Caliphate away "But didn't say follow" only the right guided hearts that Allah (swt) wills will be guided to the right path. 1 more thing to think about, our Mujtahideen are not our gods, their words are not final, Allah (swt) said "you should not follow someone blindly". If you see something being said you compair it to the word of Allah if it is against throw it out. The Sect of our Sunnah al sharifa are not kafirs in my opinion, but of the opinion of someone else. Only Allah can Judge, no one can say kafir or not.

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I'm traveling right now, so sorry for the delay in answering your questions because I'm gonna have to wait until I get back home to give you detailed answers. As of Spizo's question and "Crown of hay" statement, I'd say:

snafial, do you believe that someone who does not believes in the caliphate of the companions is a kafir? Just a question.

No.

Sunnis are muslims in this life and they are treated like muslims. But they are Kuffar in hearafter. Thats what scholars say.

Moreover, they will also to hell.

WOW

Edited by snafial

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"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty

upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." Al-Quran 5:3

Here is a small list of those Sunni scholars who attested that the above verse

of Quran in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet(S).

.al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v2, p259

.Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra

.Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p29-36 (Hadith 23-29)

.History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75

.al-Itqan, Urdu translation, by al-Suyuti, v1, p43

.Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80

.Tadhkiratul Khawwas, page 37 by Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi

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Sunnis are muslims in this life and they are treated like muslims. But they are Kuffar in hearafter. Thats what scholars say.

Moreover, they will also to hell.

i highly doubt that... enemies of Ahlul Bayt(as) will be in hell no doubt and that includes Shias too... and being an enemy doesnt mean just having animosity towards the Masoomeens (as) but also not following what they taught...

the Imams(as) always wanted to promote unity and peace, but you making these comments are acting differently...

we (shias) should worry about ourselves if we will make it to heavens, since it is said clearly in many places that even the intercession of Imams(as) wont be accepted for some people...

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i highly doubt that... enemies of Ahlul Bayt(as) will be in hell no doubt and that includes Shias too... and being an enemy doesnt mean just having animosity towards the Masoomeens (as) but also not following what they taught...

the Imams(as) always wanted to promote unity and peace, but you making these comments are acting differently...

we (shias) should worry about ourselves if we will make it to heavens, since it is said clearly in many places that even the intercession of Imams(as) wont be accepted for some people...

Agreed.

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Evidence please, I find it hard to believe that second part.

Refer to Orwa Wothqa 3/80 for syed Khoie Rahemaho Allah.

Mesbah Alfaqaha for sayed Alkhoie 5/94, not just sayed khoie say that even other scholars as SHAIKH MOFEED, SAYED KHOMAINY, SHAIKH MAJELSI, SHAIKH SADOOK, ETC. Even now a day scholars just go and ask them. Summarising what he say: They are not completely Kafirs (as atheists... etc), they are saying Shahda and take it in their heart in in their tounge but they will be judges as Kafirs in hereafter.

Summarise: You should read books. I read it in lots of books. they are muslims and they say shahda and we can live with them and buy from them. But they are as kafers in hereafter.

Edited by Crown of hay

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Refer to Orwa Wothqa 3/80 for syed Khoie Rahemaho Allah.

Mesbah Alfaqaha for sayed Alkhoie 5/94, not just sayed khoie say that even other scholars as SHAIKH MOFEED, SAYED KHOMAINY, SHAIKH MAJELSI, SHAIKH SADOOK, ETC. Even now a day scholars just go and ask them. Summarising what he say: They are not completely Kafirs (as atheists... etc), they are saying Shahda and take it in their heart in in their tounge but they will be judges as Kafirs in hereafter.

Summarise: You should read books. I read it in lots of books. they are muslims and they say shahda and we can live with them and buy from them. But they are as kafers in hereafter.

What is your definition of a "kufar"? And what is the difference between a Sunni vs. an atheist vs. a Christian? And so what implication does this mean on the Day of Judgment exactly?

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What is your definition of a "kufar"? And what is the difference between a Sunni vs. an atheist vs. a Christian? And so what implication does this mean on the Day of Judgment exactly?

I am refering to Scholars, What do you refer to? We have narrations and scholars statements. What do you have?

This is very strange. Do you know that you are questioning Ahlulbait Alyhom Alsalam and questioning All of the scholars from the day of the prophet sala alho alyh wasalam.

These statements implies that any sect otherthan Ahlulbait alyhom alsalam sect is in falsehood. Those people who do their deeds by following the teachings of sects otherthan Ahlylbait alyhom alsalam sects are just wasting energy. Thats is because of reasons not just rubbish talk most think. People who were ordered by there lord to read and study and look for the true sect and then disobey their lord by not following what he ordered deserve to go to hell. People Who are surrounded by Multimedia, books, TV and does not bother themself to look for truth deserve going to hell.

May be politic is the leader of our religion!

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I am refering to Scholars, What do you refer to? We have narrations and scholars statements. What do you have?

This is very strange. Do you know that you are questioning Ahlulbait Alyhom Alsalam and questioning All of the scholars from the day of the prophet sala alho alyh wasalam.

These statements implies that any sect otherthan Ahlulbait alyhom alsalam sect is in falsehood. Those people who do their deeds by following the teachings of sects otherthan Ahlylbait alyhom alsalam sects are just wasting energy. Thats is because of reasons not just rubbish talk most think. People who were ordered by there lord to read and study and look for the true sect and then disobey their lord by not following what he ordered deserve to go to hell. People Who are surrounded by Multimedia, books, TV and does not bother themself to look for truth deserve going to hell.

May be politic is the leader of our religion!

You say he/she who doesn’t obey Ahlu Albayt is a Kafir in the hereafter and will go to hell. Let’s see what Ali (ra) says in Nahjul-Balaghah and then judge if you obey Ali (ra) as you claim or if you will be a kafir in the hereafter as you claim. Note that I’m citing Nahjul-Balaghah because the majority of Shia accept it as sound and correct, while we Sunnis say that it does not have a sahih sanad.

1) In Letter 58, to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin: “The thing began in this way: We and Ahl Alsham were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (Ahl Alsham) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles except for what we disagreed onin respect to the Murder of Othman.”

a. Sunni: we obey Ali (ra) and say that the only point of contention was how to react to the murder of Othman (ra).

b. Shia: we disobey Ali (ra) and say that the point of contention is in Imamah and we have different faiths.

2) In Letter 6, to Mu’awiya (ra): “…And so far as Shura was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars. And if they gather around a man and select him as an Imam, it would get approval and pleasure of Allah…”

a. Sunni: we obey Ali (ra) and say that Asshura is legitimate and it is approved by Allah.

b. Shia: we disobey Ali (ra) and say that Asshura is illegitimate and it is not approved by Allah.

3) In Sermon 216, delivered at the battle of Siffin: “…Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring. I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me (in avoiding errors) in matters in which He is more powerful than I…”

a. Sunni: we obey Ali (ra) and say that he is capable of error just like every human being is capable of error. Only Allah does not make errors.

b. Shia: we disobey Ali (ra) and say that Allah does not make errors and Imams do not make errors.

So, Crown of hay, are still sure that you obey Ahl Albayt? I think that you are not a follower of their teachings, the same goes with the Shia scholars you cited.

Edited by snafial

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[shakir 12:53] And I do not declare myself free, most surely (man's) self is wont to command (him to do) evil, except such as my Lord has had mercy on, surely my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

This is from Quran. What Imam (as) is saying, that He is human, and he has those human facions that make person able to err, but he continues that it is Allah who helps him. Whit this he is refering reality of human passion.

From Nahlul balagha, sermon 216.

Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them. Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring. [1] I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me (in avoiding errors) in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah, other than Whom there is no Lord except Him. He owns our selves which we do not own. He took us from where we were towards what means prosperity to us. He altered our straying into guidance and gave us intelligence after blindness.

Footnotes by translator:

[1].That the innocence of angels is different from the innocence of man needs no detailed discussion. The innocence of angels means that they do not possess the impulse to sin, but the innocence of man means that, although he has human frailties and passions, yet he possesses a peculiar power to resist them and he is not over-powered by them so as to commit sins. This very ability is called innocence and it prevents the rising up of personal passions and impulses. Amir al-mu'minin's saying that "I do not regard myself above erring" refers to those human dictates and passions, and his saying that "Allah helps me in avoiding 'errors'" refers to innocence. The same tone is found in the Qur'an in the words of Prophet Yusuf that:

I exculpate not myself, verily (one's) self is wont to bid (him to) evil, except such as my Lord hath had mercy on; verily my Lord is Oft-forgiving, All-merciful. (12:53)

Just as in this verse, because of the existence of exception, its first part cannot be used to argue against his innocence, similarly, due to the existence of the exception "but that Allah helps me in avoiding errors" in Amir al-mu'minin's saying, its first part cannot be used to argue against his innocence, otherwise the Prophet's innocence too will have to be rejected. In the same way, the last sentence of this sermon should not be taken to mean that before the proclamation of prophethood he had been under the influence of pre-Islamic beliefs, and that just as others had been unbelievers he too might have been in darkness and misguidance, because from his very birth Amir al-mu'minin was brought-up by the Prophet and the effect of his training and up-bringing permeated him. It cannot therefore be imagined that he who had from infancy trod in the foot-prints of the Prophet would deviate from guidance even for a moment. Thus, al-Mas`udi has written:

Amir al-mu'minin never believed in any other god than Allah so that there could be the question of his accepting Islam. He rather followed the Prophet in all his actions and (virtually) initiated him, and in this very state he attained majority. (Muruj adh-dhahab, vol. 2, p. 3).

Here, by those whom Allah led from darkness into guidance, the reference is to the persons whom Amir al-mu'minin was addressing. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid writes in this connection:

The reference here is not to his own self because he had never been an unbeliever so as to have accepted Islam after that, but in these words he is referring to those group of people whom he was addressing. (Sharh Nahj al-balaghah, vol. 11, p. 108)

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/

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1) In Letter 58, to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin: “The thing began in this way: We and Ahl Alsham were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (Ahl Alsham) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles except for what we disagreed onin respect to the Murder of Othman.”

Salam Alykom for Momneen.

I have not mentioned to letter to the end. There is a continuity. You have just copied what you want (of course from a sunni website). Moreover, there are some words which was not copied. The letter begins like the following:

We and Ahl Alsham were facing each other while what was obvious (obvious to people, people tought) is that wehad common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet.

so please do not cut narrations. PLEASE.

a. Sunni: we obey Ali and say that the only point of contention was how to react to the murder of Othman .

b. Shia: we disobey Ali and say that the point of contention is in Imamah and we have different faiths.

Rubbish.

2) In Letter 6, to Mu’awiya : “…And so far as Shura was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars. And if they gather around a man and select him as an Imam, it would get approval and pleasure of Allah…”

Not a complete text (Just copy from sunnis website as other sunnis). This is a message that says that I was given alligience from shura (That Muwiya believes in and believed that who were previous governed after shura, while they did not became caliphs by shura) so he (Muwyiah) should follow the Ameer alyh alsaalm.

. Sunni: we obey Ali and say that he is capable of error just like every human being is capable of error. Only Allah does not make errors.

b. Shia: we disobey Ali and say that Allah does not make errors and Imams do not make errors

Rubbish.

So, Crown of hay, are still sure that you obey Ahl Albayt? I think that you are not a follower of their teachings, the same goes with the Shia scholars you cited.

Really funny boy :).

For the shia who still think that Sunnis are Muslims, let’s return to the purpose of the thread:

1) Can you provide me with the verses in the Quran that approves Imamah as understood by Shia?

{æóäõÑöíÏõ Ãóä äøóãõäøó Úóáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó ÇÓúÊõÖúÚöÝõæÇ Ýöí ÇáúÃóÑúÖö æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãú ÃóÆöãøóÉð æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãõ ÇáúæóÇÑöËöíäó} (5) ÓæÑÉ ÇáÞÕÕ

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For the shia who still think that Sunnis are Muslims, let’s return to the purpose of the thread:

1) Can you provide me with the verses in the Quran that approves Imamah as understood by Shia?

This has been discussed so many times. Do a search.

Since according to you, it isn't necessary to accept the Caliphate of the Caliphs, dear snafial, why are you debating with the Shi'is?

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Crown of Hay, I will answer you, but I have questions that I underlined, please answer them. Do not pick and choose.

Salam Alykom for Momneen.

I have not mentioned to letter to the end. There is a continuity. You have just copied what you want (of course from a sunni website). Moreover, there are some words which was not copied. The letter begins like the following:

We and Ahl Alsham were facing each other while what was obvious (obvious to people, people tought) is that wehad common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet.

so please do not cut narrations. PLEASE.

If I understand you right, what you are saying is very dangerous. Are you accusing Ali (ra) of saying something but believing in something else (lying)? I find that outrageous, but if that in fact is your opinion, why would Ali (ra) lie? (Note: I believe that Ali (ra) is above what you believe in him, I believe that he is brave, truthful, and trustworthy [a true believer] )

So the question again, Are you accusing Ali (ra) of saying something but believing in something else (lying)? If the answer is yes, why?

Not a complete text (Just copy from sunnis website as other sunnis). This is a message that says that I was given alligience from shura (That Muwiya believes in and believed that who were previous governed after shura, while they did not became caliphs by shura) so he (Muwyiah) should follow the Ameer alyh alsaalm.

Well, regardless of your twisted interpretation, how do you explain this specific sentence: “it would get approval and pleasure of Allah…”? Is Shurra worthy of Allah’s approval? That is what Ali (ra) said, but again, you may think that you have better judgment.

{æóäõÑöíÏõ Ãóä äøóãõäøó Úóáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó ÇÓúÊõÖúÚöÝõæÇ Ýöí ÇáúÃóÑúÖö æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãú ÃóÆöãøóÉð æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãõ ÇáúæóÇÑöËöíäó} (5) ÓæÑÉ ÇáÞÕÕ

That fact that you use this verse to prove Imamah is outrageous. You can’t just scan that Quran and look for the word (Aemmah) and twist it whatever way you want.:

1) This verse is for Bni Israel (read the verse within its context, so let’s read the verses before and after the verse you posted: Åöäøó ÝöÑúÚóæúäó ÚóáÇ Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö æóÌóÚóáó ÃóåúáóåóÇ ÔöíóÚðÇ íóÓúÊóÖúÚöÝõ ØóÇÆöÝóÉð ãøöäúåõãú íõÐóÈøöÍõ ÃóÈúäóÇÁóåõãú æóíóÓúÊóÍúíöí äöÓóÇÁåõãú Åöäøóåõ ßóÇäó ãöäó ÇáúãõÝúÓöÏöíäó (4) æóäõÑöíÏõ Ãóä äøóãõäøó Úóáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó ÇÓúÊõÖúÚöÝõæÇ Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãú ÃóÆöãøóÉð æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãõ ÇáúæóÇÑöËöíäó (5) æóäõãóßøöäó áóåõãú Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö æóäõÑöí ÝöÑúÚóæúäó æóåóÇãóÇäó æóÌõäõæÏóåõãóÇ ãöäúåõã ãøóÇ ßóÇäõæÇ íóÍúÐóÑõæäó (6)

a. If these verses are for Imamah, can you explain to me the last verse?

2) If you insist on using this verse (even though I really don’t know the sense behind it), I can say anything from my imagination and apply it to it. I can say that my family is the one addressed in the verse, but if I don’t have a proof, I would be a liar, wouldn’t I?

One last thing, can you answer Sermon 216 which you conveniently avoided?

Edited by snafial

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great snafial

although imamt in shiya are in asol deen as said in thier golden books and not the latest scholars who changed the defination . they cant escape from thier previous data without any solid reason or logic

they cant prove it through quran because shiekh mufeed,majlisi and many more authors who wrote onthis subject

have clear said

that in this subject we dont have any nus-e-qati(clear instructions from quran) but only nus-e-khafi(hidden instruction normally through hadiths) like hadith gadeer (and this is only for the first one,and even you cant find it in nahajulbalaga that h.ali a.s has used this hadith for his imamt) and all the learned scholars of shiya would agree on this because these are the saying of thier golden scholars

and this is ilmul kalam issue

that NUS QATI is required to prove ASOOL -e-DIN

so they cant prove through Nus-e-qati

hence they are not in a position to say sunni kafir on the base of asool_e-din

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If I understand you right, what you are saying is very dangerous. Are you accusing Ali of saying something but believing in something else (lying)? I find that outrageous, but if that in fact is your opinion, why would Ali lie? (Note: I believe that Ali is above what you believe in him, I believe that he is brave, truthful, and trustworthy [a true believer] )

So the question again, Are you accusing Ali of saying something but believing in something else (lying)? If the answer is yes, why?

You did not understand me right. Moreover you did not give me a justification of not copying the whole sermon. I am not interpreting the sermon I am copying a context you did not copy I have read the text in Arabic (My native language) and it does not match with English translation. It is not my problem it is yours. Furthermore, the sermons continues and does not stop to where you ended quoting.

So the question again, Are you accusing Ali of saying something but believing in something else (lying)? If the answer is yes, why?

No I have explained above, so read. You are not understanding me.

That fact that you use this verse to prove Imamah is outrageous. You can’t just scan that Quran and look for the word (Aemmah) and twist it whatever way you want.:

No it is not outrageous. I am not scanning any verse from Quran. This verse match with my believe and with the holy narrations I believe in.

your question was:

For the shia who still think that Sunnis are Muslims, let’s return to the purpose of the thread:

1) Can you provide me with the verses in the Quran that approves Imamah as understood by Shia?

This verse approves Imamah, dont you see that it states that æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãú ÃóÆöãøóÉð we will make them Imams. That means that there is a level called an Imama, Quran states that whether in this verse or another verse, you cannot deny that. Because if you do you are questioning Quran and kafer of verses that has the word Imam. Furthermore, when you read this verse you realise that it is not speaking about a fact it speacs about One of Allah Sonan, Something that Allah will do. Thats making them Imam. This is something continues. It is not something related to the past. This is also can be observed in another verse

{æóÅöÐú ÞóÇáó ÑóÈøõßó áöáúãóáÇóÆößóÉö Åöäøöí ÌóÇÚöáñ Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö ÎóáöíÝóÉð ÞóÇáõæÇú ÃóÊóÌúÚóáõ ÝöíåóÇ ãóä íõÝúÓöÏõ ÝöíåóÇ æóíóÓúÝößõ ÇáÏøöãóÇÁ æóäóÍúäõ äõÓóÈøöÍõ ÈöÍóãúÏößó æóäõÞóÏøöÓõ áóßó ÞóÇáó Åöäøöí ÃóÚúáóãõ ãóÇ áÇó ÊóÚúáóãõæäó } (30) ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ

Of course for your request of explaining the verse I will explain it by using what I remember of what I read of Holy narrations and interpretions. and Give you one of its implifications

æóÌóÚóáó ÃóåúáóåóÇ ÔöíóÚðÇ íóÓúÊóÖúÚöÝõ ØóÇÆöÝóÉð ãøöäúåõãú íõÐóÈøöÍõ ÃóÈúäóÇÁóåõãú æóíóÓúÊóÍúíöí äöÓóÇÁåõãú Åöäøóåõ ßóÇäó ãöäó ÇáúãõÝúÓöÏöíäó (4) æóäõÑöíÏõ Ãóä äøóãõäøó Úóáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó ÇÓúÊõÖúÚöÝõæÇ Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãú ÃóÆöãøóÉð æóäóÌúÚóáóåõãõ ÇáúæóÇÑöËöíäó (5) æóäõãóßøöäó áóåõãú Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö æóäõÑöí ÝöÑúÚóæúäó æóåóÇãóÇäó æóÌõäõæÏóåõãóÇ ãöäúåõã ãøóÇ ßóÇäõæÇ íóÍúÐóÑõæäó (6)

Verse 4: Indicates opression againts a group, this Group are Ahlulbait Alyhom Alsalam. As Imam Zain Abedain alyh alsalam asked after Karbala, how is your morning ßíÝ ÃÕÈÍÊ íÇÈä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æ Âáå he replied : We are in our morning as Bani Israel, Our sons are killed and our Ladies are spared.

Verse 5: It speaks about one of Allah sonan. You can realise that by reading the verse with care. Beside that, have the oppressed people became governing until now? no, They will govern and it is the Imam mahdi Alyh Alsalam who will govern.

Verse6: And we will show Abu Bakr and Omar and their soldiers (followers) what the have been scared of. Thats Pharoh was afraif of prophet moses because of his government. There government will end and the Haq will govern {æóÞõáú ÌóÇÁ ÇáúÍóÞøõ æóÒóåóÞó ÇáúÈóÇØöáõ Åöäøó ÇáúÈóÇØöáó ßóÇäó ÒóåõæÞðÇ} (81) ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅÓÑÇÁ

One last thing, can you answer Sermon 216 which you conveniently avoided?

I can answer Inshallah, but I would not, this will lead us from a topic to another.

You will be able to get the answer if you read the complete sermon with pondering.

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they cant prove it through quran because shiekh mufeed,majlisi and many more authors who wrote onthis subject

have clear said

that in this subject we dont have any nus-e-qati(clear instructions from quran) but only nus-e-khafi(hidden instruction normally through hadiths) like hadith gadeer (and this is only for the first one,and even you cant find it in nahajulbalaga that h.ali a.s has used this hadith for his imamt) and all the learned scholars of shiya would agree on this because these are the saying of thier golden scholars

What books ?

Do you understand from the term nus-e-khafi that it is Hadeeths only?

like hadith gadeer (and this is only for the first one,and even you cant find it in nahajulbalaga that h.ali a.s has used this hadith for his imamt) and all the learned scholars of shiya would agree on this because these are the saying of thier golden scholars

Hadeeth Ghadeer and Thaqalain are Hadeeths that are agreed on among sects(thus sunnis try to miss interpret it to friend conqurer, etc). Go and wash your face. moreover, Nahjulbalagha is a book of Imam Ali sermons,letters and wisdom, so it has its own message, if any hadeeth not found in Nahj does not mean that it is not authentic. It is the same for your astray sect. You except All hadeeths in Bukhari, but in the same time you accept Hadeeths which are mentioned in different books otherthan Bukhari.

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What books ?

Do you understand from the term nus-e-khafi that it is Hadeeths only?

Hadeeth Ghadeer and Thaqalain are Hadeeths that are agreed on among sects(thus sunnis try to miss interpret it to friend conqurer, etc). Go and wash your face. moreover, Nahjulbalagha is a book of Imam Ali sermons,letters and wisdom, so it has its own message, if any hadeeth not found in Nahj does not mean that it is not authentic. It is the same for your astray sect. You except All hadeeths in Bukhari, but in the same time you accept Hadeeths which are mentioned in different books otherthan Bukhari.

go and wash your face dear

i said what your schollars said

and ask your scholors that why they said imamat is proved by nus khafi

i challenge to all shiyas of world that prove where thier scholars said that imamat is proven throuh nus qati.and quote the reference

then i will prove where it is written by your golden schollors about nus khafi

and it is amazing that there are more than 300 wors of each khutba about pea [Edited Out], and bat but not even a single clear hadiths about imamat

rather H.ali said

i am better for you as minister rather then ameer"ana kharullakum wazira minni"thats your basic usool din which you clearly prove not even your basic book

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Do you know what you're talking about? You don't make any sense.

It's also amazing that there's no mention of Caliphate of Abu Bakr and Umar either in the Qur'an or ahadith [implicit or explicit].

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Salam to Momeneen

go and wash your face dear

i said what your schollars said

and ask your scholors that why they said imamat is proved by nus khafi

i challenge to all shiyas of world that prove where thier scholars said that imamat is proven throuh nus qati.and quote the reference

then i will prove where it is written by your golden schollors about nus khafi

and it is amazing that there are more than 300 wors of each khutba about pea [Edited Out], and bat but not even a single clear hadiths about imamat

rather H.ali said

i am better for you as minister rather then ameer"ana kharullakum wazira minni"thats your basic usool din which you clearly prove not even your basic book

You may go and wash your face with ocean water son. You have said that our Scholars say something about NusKhafi I have searched about that And I did not found anything related to this (whether in Arabic or English). So if you provide evidences and sources with what you say this would be a scientific discussion and for the sake of truth. Otherwise go and play somewhere else.

Imamate is conclusively proven whether in Nus or Logic all you have to do is read as Allah ordered you to READ.

and it is amazing that there are more than 300 wors of each khutba about pea [Edited Out], and bat but not even a single clear hadiths about imamat

rather H.ali said

i challenge to all shiyas of world that prove where thier scholars said that imamat is proven throuh nus qati.and quote the reference

then i will prove where it is written by your golden schollors about nus khafi

Hundreds of books if not thousends are written about this thing. You are foolish for asking such challenge.

then i will prove where it is written by your golden schollors about nus khafi

No need for that, just give us directly what you have (Actually what you copy from other websites).

and it is amazing that there are more than 300 wors of each khutba about pea [Edited Out], and bat but not even a single clear hadiths about imamat

rather H.ali said

Before answering I want to calrify a very important point, specially for non-arabs and ofr sunnis. Nahjul Balagha is a book of some sermons which shows the knowledge of the Imam and his high Balagha and Fasaha (eloquence). This is clearly stated in his intoduction for the book (That this book consist of chosen sermons, letters and wisdoms for eloquence and for The people who love to learn sermon skills and eloquency in sermons). He also states that he did not put long narrations. So you cannot take a book as an evidence because it was not written for the sake of argumentitice issues and proofing a beliefe.You mat refer to Al ehtijaj (The Arguing) for shaikh Tossi or other books for the sake of that.

some sermons related to Khilafa some about Imama (Imama is bigger circle than Khilafa) (this is just a quick look)

3, 172, 170, 173, 162

i am better for you as minister rather then ameer"ana kharullakum wazira minni"thats your basic usool din which you clearly prove not even your basic book

We are used to this sick way of discussion. You have not mentioned the total Sermon son you can not take just fiew words and ignore the full text. You cannot say La elaha with out sayin ela Allah. Go and read the whole sermons. If you did not understand go and read one of its explainations if you did not understand then come here.

Go boy go

Ya Zahra.

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Salam to Momeneen

You may go and wash your face with ocean water son. You have said that our Scholars say something about NusKhafi I have searched about that And I did not found anything related to this (whether in Arabic or English). So if you provide evidences and sources with what you say this would be a scientific discussion and for the sake of truth. Otherwise go and play somewhere else.

Imamate is conclusively proven whether in Nus or Logic all you have to do is read as Allah ordered you to READ.

dear if u r that much schollar over allama baqir majlisi and shiekh mufeed, then kindly give me reference for the evidence about nus qati

and tell me who is the schollar who said it is proven by nus qati and how it is nus qati?

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