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In the Name of God بسم الله

Who are the Knights Templar?

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Just been googling...this guy apparently thinks the knight templars became Sufis, and their rituals were reminiscent of Sufi rituals.They also mention something similar to what Ali Hyder says, but in this case its the other way round they didnt go to the muslim world but the muslim world came to them. They were influenced via Sufi muslims in Muslim spain (Spain was Sunni muslim, so im assuming they were Sunni Sufis), but that does not mean they were Sunni muslims or Sufis, just influenced by them.

http://www.templarhistory.com/solved.html

By the way if you dont mind me asking why does it mean so much? Also what if they were Sufis, or highely unlikely Sunnis? Would you be disappointed? Im guessing if some did convert, and they migrated to Egypt and Morrocco they may have ended up Sunni!!

But it still doesnt in my eyes negate the fact that alot of them fought with the western armies in the crusades.However once converted their sins may have been forgiven, but not forgotten...

The problem with the baphomet theory=mahomet like this guy says apparently they worshipped Baphomet, even syncretic Sunni sufis dont do that.

By the way i know its not on topic, but can Shias be sufis?

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W/Salaam Yes the Knights Templar are Shia Twelvers. 99.9% of the Western Scholars deem them as Christian Crusaders but that is wholly untrue. 1 - The Knights Templar were tried as heretics thru a Vati

I think that this idea is completely absurd. Vatican tried the knights because of pressure from King Phillip[who feared there power] in whose country the pope had taken refuge and not because they wer

From what I have read the Knights Templar were started by a French Christian. But they did develop a relationship with the Ismaili orders and conspired against Muslims. I don't think they should be ad

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The problem with the baphomet theory=mahomet like this guy says apparently they worshipped Baphomet, even syncretic Sunni sufis dont do that.

By the way i know its not on topic, but can Shias be sufis?

The Templars were accused of worshipping the Baphomet by religious authorities in Europe; it doesn't mean they actually did ( I personally don't believe they did ). The evidence obtained about the Templars' blasphemous activities were obtained through torture (which sint a very valid way of collecting info, the participants will agree to anything) and insult was added to injury. The Templars were also accused of masturbating on the cross, having sex with each other, urinating and defecating on religious objects and sacrificing babies etc. Total nonsense.

Yes there Shia Sufi orders like the Nematollahis of Iran. And some would consider the Bektashi order Shiite [ it's Alevi ]

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Salaam Bro

Salam

Actually I am a sister.

I am the Northern SHEEP ( that is how they use to despise us )

The Cattle Keeper, Eater of KOLA Nuts , Bearing Jellabia and boubous with Sandals, knocking (Bowing) Down my forehead, a Black Slave, a putschist and Nostalgic of My Tribe brother lost POWER ( he was the President = Ahmadou Ahidjo in reality i have Noyhing to do With Ahidjo, we just share the same ethnic tribe and language but he is 400 km Away from my native town) and worse of all Terrorist Muslim.

I am a little bit confused, you are an indigenous shi'a? I didn't know that there are native Shi'as there. Pleased to meet you :) .

If you can help provide a better way that Fits my local and international requirements ( We are no more than 3000 Shias here in cameroon ) please do ! I will appreciate. Mostly her on Sc with Bible genesis 17:20 about Ismaeel Twelve Princes !!! A Zebra of Man, His Hand Against All and All hands Against Him!

In real life I get racial comments too from Shias and Sunnis alike mostly from the former :!!!: They are not even better looking :lol:.I am always surprised when I hear such things from Muslims. It's less surprising when I hear it from Christians (what do they know after all?). And to answer your question I have no better solution to fit your local and international interests as you say. It's just there is no need that we get upset about it. My antidote is always: ignoring, working more and being happy. A person won't be saved because he is white or get loved by God because he is white just for being a good person.

WasSalam

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Just been googling...this guy apparently thinks the knight templars became Sufis, and their rituals were reminiscent of Sufi rituals.They also mention something similar to what Ali Hyder says, but in this case its the other way round they didnt go to the muslim world but the muslim world came to them. They were influenced via Sufi muslims in Muslim spain (Spain was Sunni muslim, so im assuming they were Sunni Sufis), but that does not mean they were Sunni muslims or Sufis, just influenced by them.

http://www.templarhistory.com/solved.html

yeah i know that most western folks who believe that KT admixed their theological stance with Sufism are basing their stance on a couple of loose ends. I am familiar with the link you provided (templarhistory.com) but they dont come to a conclusion factoring other considerations.

For instance how does KT's reputation as Guardians of the Holy Grail fit in with Sufism. Or how does the naming of the Portuguese town Fatima fit in with Sufism etc. Does the reconstruction of Solomon's Temple also fit in with Sufism? So their bottom line is based on very very thin information.

Did the Muslim world come to them or the other way round?

It is said by most populist KT Historians that when they formed in early 12th century, their official task was to protect pilgrims traveling to the Holy Land. But dissenting scholars say that its not physically possible for 9 people to protect the pilgrims covering a very large tract of land. Furthermore there is evidence by way of correspondence between the King of Jerusalem (King Baldwin) and other authorities that KT were to be hosted by the King for the sole purpose of excavating the Temple of Solomon.

Then there is the Dome of the Rock which was never desecrated by the KT nor were any mosques destroyed etc. On the contrary, Dome of the Rock was replicated in Portugal while at the same time, a nearby town 20 miles away was renamed as Fatima. Would it be very PC to install Islamic symbols in Portugal at the height of the Crusades and a period in Europe known as Reconquista?

Obviously the facts are incredibly contradictory and they just dont add up. The reality favours the KT being pro Islamic than not. There is no doubt in my mind that when you connect all the loose ends presently available, its the KT who went to the Muslim world and not the other way round. They went in with a pre-determined agenda and mindset.

By the way if you dont mind me asking why does it mean so much? Also what if they were Sufis, or highely unlikely Sunnis? Would you be disappointed? Im guessing if some did convert, and they migrated to Egypt and Morrocco they may have ended up Sunni!!

I dont mind at all. No i wouldnt be disappointed at the primary level if they were sufis or sunnis for that matter. I would have recognised their struggle against the authorities of the time namely the Christian establishment was an Islamic struggle. At the secondary level i would have been disappointed if they were not shia.

As to why it means so much to me? Firstly there are definitely shia, not shia Ismaili or Nusairi but shia twelvers. For any Westerner to shia at a very controversial time in our history is a marvel indeed.

Secondly, KT taught me that you can speak without using words. They portrayed their own identity and their hedged reputation thereof from mischevious historians by speaking through symbols. They never really wrote anything down. Its as though they knew that their history would be reenacted and thats when the true nature of their identity would be revealed. Speaking through unrecognisable symbols was the smartest way to speak. These guys knew how to box clever.

Thirdly, they were prepared to die for their faith the same way Prophets and Imams were. Ofcourse we cant take them on par with Prophets and Imams but they served their faith with distinction the day they were burnt at the stake which i consider nothing short of martyrdom. They could have easily changed course by the pressure applied King Phillip and Pope Clement. But they didnt buckle.

Fourthly i cant confirm this but I strongly suspect that the KT kicked of the European Renaissance in the 12th century. Yes the Muslims were already in Europe for a good 4 centuries at the very least. But the Renaissance really kicked in from the 12th century.

Check this link out regarding KT's knowledge of the astrolabe.

http://rochester92.newsvine.com/_news/2007...aphomet-updated

Then read up on the 12th century Renaissance on wikipedia. Ofcourse KT arent accredited with anything but the timeline of this Renaissance is pretty ironic to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_of_the_12th_century

But it still doesnt in my eyes negate the fact that alot of them fought with the western armies in the crusades.However once converted their sins may have been forgiven, but not forgotten...

Why was the Dome of the Rock preserved as well as the other mosques? I have a book source that states that KT made pacts with certain Crusaders never to desanctify any mosque, they were given keys to the city of Mecca etc. I have cited a book source and linked it to amazon. The book offers an amazing view of the co-operation between KT and the Muslims in a variety of areas. Its called the Knights Templar of the Middle East.

The problem with the baphomet theory=mahomet like this guy says apparently they worshipped Baphomet, even syncretic Sunni sufis dont do that.

Yeah the newsvine source i linked above also scoffs at such accusations. The slander really comes from the Church at the end of the KT existence cos the Church had an axe to grind with KT. So they made up facts that have never existed in the 2 centuries existence. As Sis Nazireh states, the confessions were obtained under duress but the KT recanted on their confesions at the Inquisition.

By the way i know its not on topic, but can Shias be sufis?

Very briefly, i know of shia posters on this forum who portray strong sufi tendencies, atleast ideological tendencies.

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Salam

Actually I am a sister.

Sorry, I didn't paid Attention. Warms and Fairhfull regards My Dear Sister In Islam and Thanks For Your Advises. There is No SHIA Born in Cameroon, It Started only a Decade Ago and we are building the Indomitable lions SHIA of Cameroon Thanks to GOD , though We are facing many problems Mainly The French Illuminati Conspiracy.

The Founder and Supporter Working in French Société Générale Bank was relocated in DAKAR Senegal last Year , and The SHIAS entered Some troubles due to His Abscence.

Salaam Bro KT

Yesterday Night, I mate My Ethiopian friend here in Douala and He told me about Ethiopian history and Mentionned The 10 Command Tables being Kept Secret in Ethiopia. that Can relate to The SANG REAL of KT ? He also told me many stuff about Queen of SHEBA and SOLOMON (as) with MENELIK as The SON of SOLOMON.

Third How comes it that MENGISTU HAILE MARYAM did the same Job at the Same Period of Time than AKA KHOMEINY ? DEPOSING THE IMPERIAL RULE OF HAILE SELASSIE like THE IMPERIAL RULE OF SHAHIN SHAH REZA PAHLAWI ?

May GOD REWARDS ROBERTO MUGABE FOR KEEPING OUR SLAVE WARRIOR MENGISTU. Today US FINANCE MELES ZENAWI TO ATTACK SOMALIA, SOME DAY MENGISTU WILL COME BACK TO POWER.

SALAAM.

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By the way if you dont mind me asking why does it mean so much?

Same here. Obviously its driving people mad here and, as I've explained before, I don't get why exactly they feel their ego is being stepped upon if someone doesn't agree with such an absolutely insignificant idea of no practical importance. ;)

If by virtue of my opposing it I get labelled as a "spook", then atleast it deserves further exaplanation about why a "spook" would waste their energy so much with such rubbish. Prepostrously IRONIC accusation, by the way, but flattering nonetheless. :D

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee
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Salaam Bro KT

Yesterday Night, I mate My Ethiopian friend here in Douala and He told me about Ethiopian history and Mentionned The 10 Command Tables being Kept Secret in Ethiopia. that Can relate to The SANG REAL of KT ? He also told me many stuff about Queen of SHEBA and SOLOMON (as) with MENELIK as The SON of SOLOMON.

SALAAM.

Salaams Bro

I have been thinking about your abjad entry in the Signs thread and I need to think about it some more. So Inshallah will respond maybe in a week but thru PM.

As far as the Ethiopian link to KT and Ark of Covenant is concerned, they say that the Ark is in a town called AXUM and no one is allowed to see the Ark for it will bring curses to all etc. But i dont believe that story since Allah says in the Quran that the Ark of the Covenant is with Him (2.248).

There maybe a link between Solomon and Ethiopia but the details are not certain yet. Even there maybe a link between Jaffar ibne abi Talib who stayed in exile in Ethiopia. There must be some reason special he went specifically to Ethiopia. The details presently are extremely sketchy.

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It is myth u follow, knightstemplar. a plain and clear myth....it was a heresy against Tamplars that they are muslims becasue the european elite dint kno what these ppl r upto, thats all. correct me if im wrong please.

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This is very interesting.

Some of my friends are doing research on this.

Good work knightstemplar.

Lovers of Imam Ali were in England.

Maybe on the orders of the Master of the Universe.

As we all know:

There is no Knight except Ali.

Ya Ali Madaad !!

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Salaam Knights Templar and others,

I am not really educated in this subject and wanted to learn more. From what I have studied and heard, is that (based on Quran and hadith). During Soloman's time there was magic being taught and the people who got ahold of it tried to recruit people to this haram by saying it was Soloman's magic (since Soloman was able to talk to animals and had power over jinns and so forth)... So Soloman got all their magic and killed the people who were spreading it and hid all their writings and records under his temple. After Soloman died, the jinns told people about the magic and told them to look underneath Soloman's temple, in which people found the haram magic in which they are able to call jinns (bad jinns of course)... and the jinns in turn would give them certain powers if they bowed down to the jinn or whatever.

This supposedly even happened in time of Prophet Muhammad, where somebody got a locke of his hair and sent a jinn on him, there is a quranic sura regarding this, Where Allah says he will protect you from those who do magic, read sura 113 Al-Falaq, or The Dawn.

Ok, so the KnightsTemplar and many others, believed that Soloman's Templar is where the dome of the rock was built so they set up their headquarters at the Al-Aqsa mosque correct? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

Supposedly they were protecting the Christian pilgrams, but really they were digging looking for something. Could it be that they were looking for more of this magic that they knew existed under there? (The jews are till this day searching under the mosque.)

Then, they found something and became very popular with the vatican, then after gaining so much power the vatican wanted to take them out ordering them to be killed where most died and others fled... to Portugal.

Am I getting this down right so far?

If they were Shia, why would they promote Christianity so much? They helped build many churches and help fund many christian organizations? Couldn't they help spread Islam?

Please give us (who would like to know) more info. Seems like a very interesting and debatable topic.. I had a great time learning from all of you who supported and opposed this theory of the templar knights being Shia 12'rs

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W/Salaam

Yes the Knights Templar are Shia Twelvers. 99.9% of the Western Scholars deem them as Christian Crusaders but that is wholly untrue.

1 - The Knights Templar were tried as heretics thru a Vatican sponsored Inquisition and convicted. The heresies they were charged of were Islamic in nature.

2 - The Knights Templar were Guardians of the Holy Grail. The Holy Grail comes from the word Sang Real. Sang Real means Holy Bloodline. Although the Da Vinci Code believes that this Holy Bloodline was the extension of Nabi Isa's bloodline thru an alleged marriage between him and Mary Magdalene which produced a daughter called Sarah. And thru Sarah was Nabi Isa descendants spawned called teh Priory of Sion. But that Islamically is untrue cos you can only have dscendants thru sons and not daughters. Furthermore, Imam Ali's sermon rules out this alleged marriage when it states:

Sermon 159 - He had no wife to allure him, nor any son to give grief, nor wealth to deviate (his attention), nor greed to disgrace him.

Thus the Da Vinci Code is a hoax but that does not mean that the Knights Templar were the guardian of the Holy Grail (Holy Bloodline) is also a hoax. It is potentially true.

3 - The Only Islamic sect that glorifies a Holy bloodline is the shia sect. Some are twelvers and some are seveners. Others like Aga Khan Ismailis and Bohras go beyond those numbers where their imamate extends to current leaders.

But the Shia Twelvers glorify the Bloodline of 14 Masoomeen which includes the Prophet, his daughter Fatima and the 12 Imams. This makes a total of 14 and they are signified as Pillars of the Shia Faith.

The Knights Templar symbolised this Holy Bloodline of 14 Pillars at Rosslyn Chapel whose notable feature are 14 pillars of which 2 are unique (Muhammad and Fatima) and 12 are similar (12 Imams)

4 - The Knights Templar also revered the sacred feminine as part of the Holy Grail/Holy Bloodline doctrine.

In 1158, a small town in Portugal was named as Fatima. Although the naming of this town is based on legend, its interesting to note that by 1130, the Templars were not only well entrenched in Portugal but in 1160, established a base in Tomar which is a 30 minute ride from Fatima.

Its thus very plausible that its the Knights Templar who named the town as Fatima since no Crusader would name any town with Islamic/Shia value.

It is therefore with little wonder when i read statements like:

1 - The roots of Templarism itself, and thus of Freemasonry, are actually deeply linked not so much to Christianity, but rather to Islam and particularly to Muhammadism.

2 - The De Payen family's Islamic background (founder of Knights Templar) was Shi'ite and drawn from Sufism, a mystic belief in which Muslims seek to find divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God, the very thing the Roman Catholic Church had declared a no go area.

3 - The Templar order's "Muslim" Philosophy which sprang from a Sufi trend of Islamism, was then Shi'ite in concept.

Ref:

1 - The Knights Templar of the Middle East - HRH Prince Michael of Albany and Walid Amine Sahab (Book Link)

Pg XI

2 - Ibid pg 68

3 - Ibid pg 75

Although the authors of this book are attempting to paint the Templars as Sufis/Ismailis, but the reality from the symbolism of the Templars is that they were Twelver Athna Asheri Shia. There is no doubt about that.

Salaams

(bismillah) (salam)

hey bro i heard on the national geagraphic that they were the followers of shaitan.so can u tell me about that?

ws

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Ok, so the KnightsTemplar and many others, believed that Soloman's Templar is where the dome of the rock was built so they set up their headquarters at the Al-Aqsa mosque correct?

Salaams Kidman

Yes correct.

Supposedly they were protecting the Christian pilgrams, but really they were digging looking for something. Could it be that they were looking for more of this magic that they knew existed under there? (The jews are till this day searching under the mosque.)

Yes correct. There are letters that suggest that sole purpose was to excavate the site and not protect pilgrims as is being alleged. But precisely what were they looking for is a mystery and only subject to speculation since nothing was ever found. Not one scroll or gem or any magic spells was ever found.

Its also interesting to note that they never desecrated Al Aqsa and i find that quite curious. Let me handle this aspect in one of your points.

Then, they found something and became very popular with the vatican, then after gaining so much power the vatican wanted to take them out ordering them to be killed where most died and others fled... to Portugal.

This is a red herring. I dont think they were ever popular with the Vatican there is no material evidence to prove as such. There may have been periods of congenial relations but thats about all.

If they were Shia, why would they promote Christianity so much? They helped build many churches and help fund many christian organizations? Couldn't they help spread Islam?

Ok here is one Church that they built in Portugal. Let me quote a brief excerpt:

The original convent was a 16-sided polygon, based on the design of the Temple of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and the outer walls of the Convento de Cristo are a mirror image of a stellar constellation, with the Charola or Rotunda (an inner octagonal church modelled on the Holy Sepulchre) taking Orion's position.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/C...Order-of-Christ

Its obvious that this convent must have undergone a "Christian makeover" where the original plan was based on the Dome of the Rock. Now why is that? Why would they make a Christian Convent based on an Islamic model? It was also made in 1160 when the Crusades were in full swing. You have to admit that something is not adding up.

salaams

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Salaam Knights Templar,

Salaams Kidman

Yes correct. There are letters that suggest that sole purpose was to excavate the site and not protect pilgrims as is being alleged. But precisely what were they looking for is a mystery and only subject to speculation since nothing was ever found. Not one scroll or gem or any magic spells was ever found.

So what are you speculating that they were looking for? Basically what a lot of people are asking here... is IF they are shia, what will it matter and what will it mean to us?

Its also interesting to note that they never desecrated Al Aqsa and i find that quite curious. Let me handle this aspect in one of your points.

Ok here is one Church that they built in Portugal. Let me quote a brief excerpt:

The original convent was a 16-sided polygon, based on the design of the Temple of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and the outer walls of the Convento de Cristo are a mirror image of a stellar constellation, with the Charola or Rotunda (an inner octagonal church modelled on the Holy Sepulchre) taking Orion's position.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/C...Order-of-Christ

Its obvious that this convent must have undergone a "Christian makeover" where the original plan was based on the Dome of the Rock. Now why is that? Why would they make a Christian Convent based on an Islamic model? It was also made in 1160 when the Crusades were in full swing. You have to admit that something is not adding up.

salaams

Yes, the town 30 miles away named Fatima, them not desecrating the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and how they built the church (and i believe others as well) using the design from the Al-Aqsa mosque does support islamic implications...

I would like to know if there are anymore evidence linking them to shia islam?

Also, regarding a lot of their symbols and artwork, none (that i have researched) have any revelence to Islamic symbols... instead they symbolize pagan gods and goddesses, the star of david, and other religions/beliefs. Maybe you can explain a little regarding this.

Sorry for asking a ton of question, you did strike up a bit of curiousity which led me to read 'the divinci code' which was sitting in my bookshelf in which i wasn't planning on reading previous.

Alright bro, will talk to you later, gotta get back to studying.

Kidman

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Salaam Knights Templar

W/Salaam

Yes, the town 30 miles away named Fatima, them not desecrating the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and how they built the church (and i believe others as well) using the design from the Al-Aqsa mosque does support islamic implications...

Jazakallah and thank you.

So what are you speculating that they were looking for? Basically what a lot of people are asking here... is IF they are shia, what will it matter and what will it mean to us?

The consensus states that whatever they found has relevance with 2 major things. One is the Ark of the Covenant which is a physical structure and the second thing they found was the secret to the Holy Grail which is a bloodline. This happens to be only relevant aspect of the Da Vinci Code which is truly a work of fiction. You can get the same conclusion for n number of scholars or google without relying on the Da Vinci code.

I am happy to go with the speculators who suggest that their findings have relevance with the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail since the connotations are Islamic namely:

1 - Ark of the Covenant - All scholars of the Templars/Crusades who handle the Ark of the Covenant matter allude to its physical structure and possible locations. But Allah in the Quran says that Ark is with him. Thus no scholar should be able to prove the exact location of the Ark since it would then disprove ayat 2.248

2 - The Holy Grail - The scholars say the Grail isnt a chalice of sorts but a Holy Bloodline. Islam agrees on 2 counts. Firstly the Abrahamic Covenant was based on a Bloodline and secondly its wasnt Jesus' bloodline. It was Muhammad's.

Islamically, if there was no relevance to this issue, 2.248 would have been most unnecessary. The ayat is for the Grail enthusiasts such as myself and also as a sign of the times.

I would like to know if there are anymore evidence linking them to shia islam?

The key to their Islamic link is the Ark of the Covenant and Holy Grail implications. But to know definitively that they were Shia Muslims, the structures that they built have major clues in them both in terms of architecture and symbols and also some belief systems that are coming to light. I am still in the process of working on these elements so i cannot speak as authoritavely on them until and unless i have decrypted them.

Also, regarding a lot of their symbols and artwork, none (that i have researched) have any revelence to Islamic symbols... instead they symbolize pagan gods and goddesses, the star of david, and other religions/beliefs. Maybe you can explain a little regarding this.

Its a strange comment from you considering that you thought they were Christian. Here is a quote from you:

If they were Shia, why would they promote Christianity so much?

I would be interested to know which symbols and from which locations have value with pagan gods and goddesses if you dont mind me asking?

salaams

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W/Salaam

The consensus states that whatever they found has relevance with 2 major things. One is the Ark of the Covenant which is a physical structure and the second thing they found was the secret to the Holy Grail which is a bloodline. This happens to be only relevant aspect of the Da Vinci Code which is truly a work of fiction. You can get the same conclusion for n number of scholars or google without relying on the Da Vinci code.

I am happy to go with the speculators who suggest that their findings have relevance with the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail since the connotations are Islamic namely:

1 - Ark of the Covenant - All scholars of the Templars/Crusades who handle the Ark of the Covenant matter allude to its physical structure and possible locations. But Allah in the Quran says that Ark is with him. Thus no scholar should be able to prove the exact location of the Ark since it would then disprove ayat 2.248

http://www.al-islam.org/quran/

When looking up the Ark of the Covenant, this is what I come across:

[shakir 2:248] And the prophet said to them: Surely the sign of His kingdom is, that there shall come to you the chest in which there is tranquillity from your Lord and residue of the relics of what the children of Musa and the children of Haroun have left, the angels bearing it; most surely there is a sign in this for those who believe.

[Yusufali 2:248] And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith."

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:248]

The tabut (3 yards X 2 yards) was a holy ark or chest which contained divine signs, understood by the prophets of Allah only. It was so divinely blessed that whenever carried by the Jews into the battlefield, the enemy invariably ran away. It was passed on from one prophet to another, and had miraculous properties. It is reported to contain the garments of Musa, the turban of Harun and some sacred relics. It was brought back from Shiloh to help the Jews in the war against the Philistines. The ark mentioned in verse 39 of al Taha (Exodus 2: 3) is not this ark.

Where does it say that the ark is with Allah?

Its a strange comment from you considering that you thought they were Christian. Here is a quote from you:

If they were Shia, why would they promote Christianity so much?

I would be interested to know which symbols and from which locations have value with pagan gods and goddesses if you dont mind me asking?

salaams

I never said I thought they were Christian. I said that they greatly helped the spread of Christianity which is contrary to islam. Why not use their efforts to promote shia Islam? Maybe their secret is worth more than promoting the religion?

The location with the symbolistic pagan gods and goddesses would be at the Rosslyn Chapel or formally known as the Collegiate Church of St. Matthew which I found out is a debatable subject concerning who built it and if it was associated with the Templar Knights or not. I have not really researched any of the other churches that the Templar Knights built to see if they have any pagan symbols or what not. This site might be useful in this attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_place...Knights_Templar

The connection between the Knights Templars and Islam seems very little in comparison to Christianity. The town Fatima, the 14 Pillars, the Church following the Al-Aqsa mosque blueprints, and them not destroying the mosque doesn't seem like much when comparing it to the many things they built in support of Christianity.

Please tell us more of the info you have to share... I'm still interested and limited in my knowledge of them.

thanks,

Kidman

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Where does it say that the ark is with Allah?

Your source states that the Ark was passed on from Prophet to Prophet. So my question to you is how many Prophets and which was the last Prophet? In this way we will Inshallah come to know if its with Allah.

I never said I thought they were Christian. I said that they greatly helped the spread of Christianity which is contrary to islam.

lol - pardon me for finding some humour in this statement. Would you like to rephrase it. I would find it physically impossible for an entity not to be christian and yet helped spread christianity.

The location with the symbolistic pagan gods and goddesses would be at the Rosslyn Chapel or formally known as the Collegiate Church of St. Matthew which I found out is a debatable subject concerning who built it and if it was associated with the Templar Knights or not.

So can we eliminate the pagan argument since you are trying to connect Rosslyn with Christianity.

Oh Rosslyn is definetly Templar. Yes i know there are disputes whether the builder William St Clair himself was a Templar or not but the key to knowing its Templar identity is the symbols therein. For instance did you know that Rosslyn contains some Islamic/Arabic art?

Also, I dont have this book but I have just ordered it. Take a sneak preview into what the author believes the magnitude of Rosslyn actually is:

http://www.bravepen.com/rosslyn/articles/strange.php

And also check this link out. Its about the authors of Rosslyn Revealed and their fascination with Rosslyn:

http://heritage.scotsman.com/rosslynchapel...ight.2822004.jp

The connection between the Knights Templars and Islam seems very little in comparison to Christianity. The town Fatima, the 14 Pillars, the Church following the Al-Aqsa mosque blueprints, and them not destroying the mosque doesn't seem like much when comparing it to the many things they built in support of Christianity.

Thats odd. You havent made one connection at all. Rosslyn hasnt any christian value at all. I can quote scholars if you like.

Please tell us more of the info you have to share... I'm still interested and limited in my knowledge of them.

How many of the Templar sites have you researched? Because therein lies the answer. If you can show me consistency in its Christain aesthetics between all the sites, I am sold.

Salaams

EDIT

Sorry, you asked me why didnt they spread Shia Islam at all. Well the Crusades and the Reconquista were on at the time. It was difficult for a Muslim in Europe as they were being driven out from every possible country. So to spread Shia Islam so openly would have been futile.

But that said, they introduced Islam to Europe in a different way. For instance did you know that Templars introduced banking in Europe. Did you also know that their banking system was based on the Islamic Hawala?

Did you know that all their sites have value with Astronomy. Did you know they aquainted themselves with Astronomy on Islamic principles?

Here is one link you might find interesting:

http://rochester92.newsvine.com/_news/2007...aphomet-updated

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Brother KT I think your argument in favour of the templars being muslim is really appreciable. However I have two questions:

1. What mskes you so sure that the templars were shia? Could they possibly be sunnis?

2. Did the templars fight against the muslims in the crusades?

salaams and thank you for your questions:

1 - No chance for them being Sunni at all. KT core values were comprised of 3 things namley a holy bloodline, a sacred feminine all encompassed as the Ark of the Covenant which numbered 14. Sunnism values the Holy Bloodline and the Covenant upto the Prophet but not beyond him. Shi'ism continues the Holy Bloodline philosophy beyond the Prophet as instrincic to the equation of the Post prophet Covenant:

9:8 How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and m ost of them are rebellious and wicked.

9:10 In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

2 - Thats a tricky question. It depends who wrote what on this issue. I would like to give you one practicel example but before i do, its important for you to know that the KT were officially founded AFTER Jerusalem fell to the Crusaders and the fall occured in 1099.

It is also said that once Jerusalem fell to the Crusaders, the Knights formed and headed to the Holy Land. But for what purpose? Now this is where conflicting histories come into play and I would like to demonstrate that:

Version 1

In 1108,a small group of knights who called themselves The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Jesus Christ presented themsleves to the King of Jerusalem. They offered to act as a kind of a police force in the Crusader states, protecting the pilgrims, who were unarmed from marauding Muslim (1)

Here the Military Monks were doing 2 things. First, they were rooting Christianity physically and powerfully in the Holy Land. Second, by colonizing the frontiers, these new military monks were performing, and taking to its logical conclusion, a function that monks had been fulfilling in Europe for years. These monks were pushing aggresively against the Frontiers of Islam and were in the front line of the Holy War. (2)

Refs:

1 - Holy War - The Crusades and their impact on today's world - By Karen Armstrong - Pg 185

2 - Ibid - Pg 186

Version 2 comprising of several quotes completely contradict Karen Armstrong's version:

In public pronouncements they (Templars) had declared that their mission in the Holy Land was to keep the road from the coast to Jerusalem free from bandits. I could find no evidence , however, to suggest that they took any steps to fulfil this mission during those first 7 years of their existence; on the contrary as one authority puts it, "the New Order did very little in this period." Besides, simple logic suggested that 9 men could have hradly protected anybody on a highway almost 50 miles long.

I could only conclude, therefore, that Hugues De Payens and his colleagues must have had some other, undeclared purpose. They largely confined themselves to the precints of the Temple Mount during the first 7 years of their sojourn in Jerusalem - and this suggested very strongly that their real motive must have had to do with that very special site. (3)

One story recorded in the annals of crusader kingdom of Jerusalem tells of a young Frankish Knight entering the Dome of the Rock and being met by a Muslim praying towards Mecca. Losing his temper, he intimated the follower of Islam that he was praying the wrong way. The Frankish Knight then found himself taken to task by 2 Templar Knights and told him not to come back till he had learned both manners and tolerance. (4)

The fact that is that the Order of the Templars, certainly in the Middle East, was only Christian as an alaternative to being Islamic. It (Templar Order) was fundamentally Islamic in both essence and practice. Moreover, the Islamic hierarchy of neither Mecca or Cairo made any military or verbal move to prevent the Templars taking over charge of the Dome of the Rock, the second most holy site of Islam and the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. The reason for their lack of enthusiasm to fight the Templars was simply because the contemporary Islamic records refer to the oder of Knights Templar of Islam. Christians they may have claimed to be, but this was merely a ploy to keep both the Orthiodox and Catholic Churches out of the Mosque, out of the Dome of the Rock, so that their true brothers could go on worshipping God while praying towards Mecca. (5)

Refs:

3 - The Sign and The Seal - by Graham Hancock - Pgs 93/94

This view is also supported by The Second Messiah by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas - pg 28/29

4 - The Knights Templar of the Middle East - by HRH Prince Michael of Albany and Walid Amine Salhab - pg 74

5 - Ibid - pg 75

As you can see the history on Templars is vastly conflicting. So when I doing research on the Islamic Hawala system and Templar banking model and read this:

http://www.lagunajournal.com/economic.htm

They teach from child hood in Islamic schools (madrasa’s) that the Templars, not the Rothschilds founded the first international banking system around 1100 A.D. in Jerusalem.

It doesnt surprise me at all. Rest assured, the Templars are an enigma. I for one am utterly gob smacked.

Salaams

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Why would historians hide the reality of Templars? Whats to be gained from this sort of history anyway? Suppose if they were indeed Shia, then what should we do? I'm guessing we should join the Templar Fellowship of America? :P And work for the New World Order after getting brainwashed?

How can historians manage to do such a thing? Its really laughable. Its too big a thing to hide or go uncovered. There were several types and versions of historians and their history, indeed.

1. Wahabi Historians (If there was but one whiff of the possibility that the Templar were Shia, Wahabis would have been throwing a bloody tantrum using that as well to defame the Shia, and would have used that as another excuse to butcher our kids since the Crusades. But they haven't added your belief to their list of grievances.)

2. Shia/Ismaili Historians (They do not mention anything good about Templars either. No similarities. They do write about the cruelty of the Templars like everyone else, including european historians. Also about the big red cross on their white tabards. There are several accounts of Asaaseen/Hashishin destroying famous Templars, and Asaaseen were Ismaili Shias mostly.)

3. European historians. You've read Karen Armstrong who is not a neutral or unbiased person, usually writes about or creates inflammatory controversies. Understandable. Here is what Encyclopedia Brittanica has to say about a notorious Templar knight named Reginald De Chatillon. This is the reality of the Templars. Reginald wanted to invade Mecca and Medina. He became a pirate to gather enough money to fund such an invasion.

You have conveniently ignored these greatly contrasting facts that are agreed upon by historians of all kinds. And

You have failed to answer:

Why does it mean so much?

Why don't you come down that cross of yours and educate us about that reality? Why do you act like a spook yourself and grace others with that title? Could anyone act more illogically? :lol:

Yet you have chosen to propagate a weird and baseless fantasy instead. You give verbal "proofs" alone, like 14 pillars in their Rosslyn Chapel that you or anyone here have not seen. 12 corners of a symbol, or whatever. How do these "proofs" become indications of the presence of Shia faith? How dare you think its as crude as that. You insult Shia faith with your rhetoric. Shia Islam is not about symbol worship, mass murder of non-believers likes wahabi terrorists, erecting 14 pillars and all that. We do not believe in invading another continent under taqiyya while wearing red crosses over our chests.

Why did the Templar continue with their taqiyya when they reached the middle east? Why did they kill the Ismaili Asaaseen and any other Muslims without care? And all Muslims killed them in return. I'm sorry for being so blunt but thats what it is. Do correct me if I'm wrong. However, I'm sure you won't because you can't answer all those questions. All you want is to recruit and brainwash weak minded youngsters from these forums to join your Fellowship of Dajjal, and all you have is baseless propaganda. :!!!: :rolleyes:

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salaams and thank you for your questions:

1 - No chance for them being Sunni at all. KT core values were comprised of 3 things namley a holy bloodline, a sacred feminine all encompassed as the Ark of the Covenant which numbered 14. Sunnism values the Holy Bloodline and the Covenant upto the Prophet but not beyond him. Shi'ism continues the Holy Bloodline philosophy beyond the Prophet as instrincic to the equation of the Post prophet Covenant:

9:8 How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and m ost of them are rebellious and wicked.

9:10 In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

2 - Thats a tricky question. It depends who wrote what on this issue. I would like to give you one practicel example but before i do, its important for you to know that the KT were officially founded AFTER Jerusalem fell to the Crusaders and the fall occured in 1099.

It is also said that once Jerusalem fell to the Crusaders, the Knights formed and headed to the Holy Land. But for what purpose? Now this is where conflicting histories come into play and I would like to demonstrate that:

Version 1

In 1108,a small group of knights who called themselves The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Jesus Christ presented themsleves to the King of Jerusalem. They offered to act as a kind of a police force in the Crusader states, protecting the pilgrims, who were unarmed from marauding Muslim (1)

Here the Military Monks were doing 2 things. First, they were rooting Christianity physically and powerfully in the Holy Land. Second, by colonizing the frontiers, these new military monks were performing, and taking to its logical conclusion, a function that monks had been fulfilling in Europe for years. These monks were pushing aggresively against the Frontiers of Islam and were in the front line of the Holy War. (2)

Refs:

1 - Holy War - The Crusades and their impact on today's world - By Karen Armstrong - Pg 185

2 - Ibid - Pg 186

Version 2 comprising of several quotes completely contradict Karen Armstrong's version:

In public pronouncements they (Templars) had declared that their mission in the Holy Land was to keep the road from the coast to Jerusalem free from bandits. I could find no evidence , however, to suggest that they took any steps to fulfil this mission during those first 7 years of their existence; on the contrary as one authority puts it, "the New Order did very little in this period." Besides, simple logic suggested that 9 men could have hradly protected anybody on a highway almost 50 miles long.

I could only conclude, therefore, that Hugues De Payens and his colleagues must have had some other, undeclared purpose. They largely confined themselves to the precints of the Temple Mount during the first 7 years of their sojourn in Jerusalem - and this suggested very strongly that their real motive must have had to do with that very special site. (3)

One story recorded in the annals of crusader kingdom of Jerusalem tells of a young Frankish Knight entering the Dome of the Rock and being met by a Muslim praying towards Mecca. Losing his temper, he intimated the follower of Islam that he was praying the wrong way. The Frankish Knight then found himself taken to task by 2 Templar Knights and told him not to come back till he had learned both manners and tolerance. (4)

The fact that is that the Order of the Templars, certainly in the Middle East, was only Christian as an alaternative to being Islamic. It (Templar Order) was fundamentally Islamic in both essence and practice. Moreover, the Islamic hierarchy of neither Mecca or Cairo made any military or verbal move to prevent the Templars taking over charge of the Dome of the Rock, the second most holy site of Islam and the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. The reason for their lack of enthusiasm to fight the Templars was simply because the contemporary Islamic records refer to the oder of Knights Templar of Islam. Christians they may have claimed to be, but this was merely a ploy to keep both the Orthiodox and Catholic Churches out of the Mosque, out of the Dome of the Rock, so that their true brothers could go on worshipping God while praying towards Mecca. (5)

Refs:

3 - The Sign and The Seal - by Graham Hancock - Pgs 93/94

This view is also supported by The Second Messiah by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas - pg 28/29

4 - The Knights Templar of the Middle East - by HRH Prince Michael of Albany and Walid Amine Salhab - pg 74

5 - Ibid - pg 75

As you can see the history on Templars is vastly conflicting. So when I doing research on the Islamic Hawala system and Templar banking model and read this:

http://www.lagunajournal.com/economic.htm

They teach from child hood in Islamic schools (madrasa’s) that the Templars, not the Rothschilds founded the first international banking system around 1100 A.D. in Jerusalem.

It doesnt surprise me at all. Rest assured, the Templars are an enigma. I for one am utterly gob smacked.

Salaams

Salaams KT

Thanks for your reply, but it hasnt quite answered my questions. You said that Sunnis value the bloodline, but only upto the prophet.I think you will find that sunnis however do value the Imams Ali, Hussain ,Hasan and so on. Also Sayyidah Fatima is held in the highest regards amongst sunnis. So this doesnt quite answer why the templars could not be sunnis.

Regarding the 2nd queation, which is the main one, I'll take your second version to be correct, it shows that they were Islamic. However it didnt answer my question as to whether they fought against the muslims in the crusade wars i.e against Saladin.

Thanks

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Salaams KT

Thanks for your reply, but it hasnt quite answered my questions. You said that Sunnis value the bloodline, but only upto the prophet.I think you will find that sunnis however do value the Imams Ali, Hussain ,Hasan and so on. Also Sayyidah Fatima is held in the highest regards amongst sunnis. So this doesnt quite answer why the templars could not be sunnis.

Salaams Khaled

Um the Covenant involves a particular bloodline and a very fixed number of people. One can ill afford to accommodate anyone outside the loop of the Covenant for instance the first 3 caliphs.

The second aspect of the Covenant is not just subservience to the Covenanted but obedience to their guidance and no one elses,

it shows that they were Islamic. However it didnt answer my question as to whether they fought against the muslims in the crusade wars i.e against Saladin.

If it shows that they were Islamic, then surely the Battle between them and Saladin was an Islamic affair. And if so, was the battle a shia sunni one?

Secondly, is Saladin innocent from shedding Muslim blood?

Salaams

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Brother KT, my main question is the 2nd one. I know what u mean when you are talking about Saladin and shedding muslims blood. However coming to the crusades, it was not a war between shia and sunni, but against the chrisitians. And the ultimate goal was to punish the christians for what they did to the muslims. I am pretty certain that if the templars were muslims, they would not attack Saladin, even though he had killed shia before; as the templars's goal would have also been to get rid of the christians from the holy land.

Why would they oppose Saladin as this would have meant that christians kept cotrol of the holy land. How would this have helped the muslims?

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I am pretty certain that if the templars were muslims, they would not attack Saladin, even though he had killed shia before; as the templars's goal would have also been to get rid of the christians from the holy land.

Why would they oppose Saladin as this would have meant that christians kept cotrol of the holy land. How would this have helped the muslims?

Salaams Khaleed

lol - so its not about the shedding of the Muslim blood since that would rule out Saladin too well atleast by Islamic standards. So its really about power and control over the Holy Land especially by an entity that appears outwardly Muslim. And you are wrong about the first point. The 2 points are interconnected. But to answer your question about Templars fighting Muslims, its important to understand the following

1 - The Templars have been subject to a robust Revisionist drive. The same cannot be said about the Franks or Hospitallers or Teutonics. So there must be a good reason.

2 - The reason for the above is that the Templars have 2 histories. One is Middle Eastern and one is European. Whilst the Middle East history tends to portray them as cold blooded killers, the presenty European Reviosionist drive portrays them more as Gnostics and dare i say even Sufis according to a small range of Scholars/Historians.

3 - What is predominatly said about the Templars is not said by the Templars. Its said on behalf of them since there are no written works by the Templars. But that does not mean they didnt speak. Indeed they did speak.

Thus the 2 histories appear quite incompatible and thus it necessiates the need for Templar Revisionism and consistent behavioral patterns between their Middle Eastern History and European one. Christopher Tyerman, a fellow in History at Hertford College, Oxford and a veteran of several treatise on the Crusades has written an aptly titled "God's War - A NEW History of the Crusades" (Book Link), a mammoth 1000 page treatise including exhaustive bibliographies and index in which he notes:

All historical investigations remain cotingent on suriving evidence. One of the regular temptations seducing historians and their audience is to imagine knowledge of the past. Most has been lost, by nature, accident or design. The muddle of existence is simplified both by the historians' craft, which is at root that of selection, and by the gaps in evidence. To illustrate the tenious links that inform our knowledge. two of the most vivid, full and important contemporary narratives of the Second Crusades(1146-1148) survive in a single manuscript each. Without them, our view of that remarkable event would be entirely different.

Most of the evidence that once existed for the history of the Crusades is lost. Conversely, what does survive inevitably favours certain perspectives over others for which less evidence has survived. The story of the most familiar episode of all, The First Crusade and the the conquest of Jerusalem (1095-9), is based on a remarkably narrow 12th Century historiographical tradition whch may, but equally may not, reveal what was of greater or lesser importance at the time.

Thus any modern historical account can only be to some degree tentative. If the requirement of the narrative obscure the delicacy of the interpretive choices reached here, this is no way suggests that they were easy, simple straightforward, necessarily incontrovertible or even conclusive. They merely represent what the author, to the best of his understanding, now thinks.

Source: God's War: A New History of the Crusades vy Christophet Tyerman pb XV (preface).

Thats why Khaleed, I prefer a balance between European History and Middle East History to illustrate a consistent behavioral pattern. I personaly dont care if the wahaabis were asleep on this issue or whether the shia ismaili wrote a particularly hostile version provided that they wrote did not and does not match with the European version.

The key to all of this is IF the Templars spoke on their behalf. And thats they key to any interpretive value. And whatever they spoke in the Middle East is what they should have spoken in Europe as well. They ofcourse did not speak thru words but spoke by way of action. And the one example that I did give you was the example of the Dome of the Rock.

At no point has this place been desecrated or desanctified by the Templars. On the contrary they went out of their eway to censure any Christian miscreant. And how does the sanctity of the Dome of the Rock balance with European history? Well read this:

The original convent was a 16-sided polygon, based on the design of the Temple of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and the outer walls of the Convento de Cristo are a mirror image of a stellar constellation, with the Charola or Rotunda (an inner octagonal church modelled on the Holy Sepulchre) taking Orion's position.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/C...Order-of-Christ

This so called "convent" was built in 1160. Christians also knew nothing abotu astronomy. Saladin re-captured Jerusalem in 1187. This is whopping 30 year gap between the European structure copied from the Dome of the Rock. Are you sure that Knights Templar are Muslim killers? Or was this about Power and Greed?

Salaams

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All this talk about dome of the rock and symbols and the number 14 and there is no proof that a single templar ever went to (or could be allowed to visit) the shrines of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Imam Ali (as) or Lady Fatima (as) or any of the other Imams (as). While they had so much secret love for the Ahl al-bayt (as) and the holy bloodline that they, allegedly, named cities after them and kept statues of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) astaghfirullah (keeping statues is in no way Islamic).

So they were curious about Islam and Shia faith and our holy figures. Who wouldn't be? Who can resist knowing further about the greatest people with most immaculate characters? It doesn't take to be a Templar to do so, if it can be proved.

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Interestingly enough todays Scottish Rite freemasons (who claim decendancy of the templars) learn about the house hold of Abu Talib when they reach to level 31 before they can reach level 32 and of course these are the most secret levels so finding this out is not easy. (this info does not come from me and I've never read it in a book but have only heard it from masons of harvard university's alumni). So when i read the theories posted here it doesnt sound as far fetched as it would to many others who read this.

I wouldnt trust the history written by the ismaili scholars as i dont feel they are trustworthy and the same goes for the vatican/european version of the history.

knightstemplar if you read this plz pm me theres a few things as well i would like to ask u.

I do say the evidence is rather convincing...... they could've found the truest form of islam (Ithna Asheri) and had to hide their beliefs, but from every side there are stories of the crusaders killing muslim women and children and that is impossible to ignore.

Just as the top masons today understand the rank of Muhammad (sawas) and the rank of Ali(as) and the rank of Fatima (as) it does not mean that they are shia muslims, it means they understand that this bloodline is the key to understanding certain things but they do not follow them the way we are supposed to.

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I think that this idea is completely absurd. Vatican tried the knights because of pressure from King Phillip[who feared there power] in whose country the pope had taken refuge and not because they were muslims. They were christians and were very much against muslims sometimes even eating there flesh let alone shias. I think this misconception started because of the alliance between fatimids[who were ismaili] and crusaders against the abbasids. This however was because of tactics and not simiularity in region.

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It's hard to describe how stupid this argument is, and it's amazing that anyone would believe anything based on such tenuous 'evidence'. Muslims seriously need to get out of this habit of making fools of themselves by latching on to all kinds of insane theories.

W/Salaam

Yes the Knights Templar are Shia Twelvers. 99.9% of the Western Scholars deem them as Christian Crusaders but that is wholly untrue.

1 - The Knights Templar were tried as heretics thru a Vatican sponsored Inquisition and convicted. The heresies they were charged of were Islamic in nature.

Evidence for the heresies being 'Islamic' in nature is of course not provided. In fact, the heresies they were charged with included idolatry and homosexuality. Nothing very Islamic about that.

2 - The Knights Templar were Guardians of the Holy Grail. The Holy Grail comes from the word Sang Real. Sang Real means Holy Bloodline.

Proof that is comes from 'Sang Real'?

The word graal, as it is earliest spelled, comes from Old French graal or greal, cognate with Old Provençal grazal and Old Catalan gresal, meaning "a cup or bowl of earth, wood, or metal" (or other various types of vessels in different Occitan dialects).[3] The most commonly accepted etymology derives it from Latin gradalis or gradale via an earlier form, cratalis, a derivative of crater or cratus which was, in turn, borrowed from Greek krater (a two-handed shallow cup).[3][4][5][6][7] Alternate suggestions include a derivative of cratis, a name for a type of woven basket that came to refer to a dish,[8] or a derivative of Latin gradus meaning "'by degree', 'by stages', applied to a dish brought to the table in different stages or services during a meal".[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail#Origins

Seems someone has been basing too much of his research on the Da Vinci code.

Sangreal

The Da Vinci Code contains many word plays that add fun and mystery to its plot; the twists made with Sangreal are clever but inaccurate (46, 160). Supposedly, the French word for "Holy Grail" is derived from the ancient words sang real, translated to mean "royal blood" (250). However, legends about the existence of a grail did not originate until the medieval stories of Arthur and his knights were created; in these works the term was Sankgreall, and the term "grail" comes from the Latin gradale, which means "platter." In Chretien's poem Perceval (from 1170), the grail was thought of as a flat dish, not a chalice. (The literal translation of "royal blood" into French would be le sang royal, which, as a native of France, the fictional Sophie would know.) On the "Sangreal" documents Dan Brown references (256), see hidden documents; purist documents; see also Holy Blood, Holy Grail; Holy Grail; Knights Templar.

http://www.thetruthaboutdavinci.com/faq/sangreal.html

Although the Da Vinci Code believes that this Holy Bloodline was the extension of Nabi Isa's bloodline thru an alleged marriage between him and Mary Magdalene which produced a daughter called Sarah. And thru Sarah was Nabi Isa descendants spawned called teh Priory of Sion. But that Islamically is untrue cos you can only have dscendants thru sons and not daughters. Furthermore, Imam Ali's sermon rules out this alleged marriage when it states:

Sermon 159 - He had no wife to allure him, nor any son to give grief, nor wealth to deviate (his attention), nor greed to disgrace him.

Thus the Da Vinci Code is a hoax but that does not mean that the Knights Templar were the guardian of the Holy Grail (Holy Bloodline) is also a hoax. It is potentially true.

First of all, the Da Vinci code is a work of fiction, not history, so why anyone would even bother mentioning it is beyond me. Secondly, in an attempt to refute the claims in the Da Vinci code, the author manages to shoot himself in the foot, since the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had no progeny through his sons either. So unless they are trying to claim that the 'Holy Bloodline' is actually through `Ali (as), and not Muhammad (pbuh), their argument makes no sense.

3 - The Only Islamic sect that glorifies a Holy bloodline is the shia sect. Some are twelvers and some are seveners. Others like Aga Khan Ismailis and Bohras go beyond those numbers where their imamate extends to current leaders.

But the Shia Twelvers glorify the Bloodline of 14 Masoomeen which includes the Prophet, his daughter Fatima and the 12 Imams. This makes a total of 14 and they are signified as Pillars of the Shia Faith.

The Knights Templar symbolised this Holy Bloodline of 14 Pillars at Rosslyn Chapel whose notable feature are 14 pillars of which 2 are unique (Muhammad and Fatima) and 12 are similar (12 Imams)

Right... Except for the fact that Rossyl Chapel was built 150 years after the dissolution of the Knight's Templar. And why would pillars representing the 14 Masumeen be found in a place of shirk?

4 - The Knights Templar also revered the sacred feminine as part of the Holy Grail/Holy Bloodline doctrine.

In 1158, a small town in Portugal was named as Fatima. Although the naming of this town is based on legend, its interesting to note that by 1130, the Templars were not only well entrenched in Portugal but in 1160, established a base in Tomar which is a 30 minute ride from Fatima.

Its thus very plausible that its the Knights Templar who named the town as Fatima since no Crusader would name any town with Islamic/Shia value.

Or more likely, it had something to do with Portugal's history of being under Islamic occupation.

It is therefore with little wonder when i read statements like:

1 - The roots of Templarism itself, and thus of Freemasonry, are actually deeply linked not so much to Christianity, but rather to Islam and particularly to Muhammadism.

I don't think this was meant as a good thing...

2 - The De Payen family's Islamic background (founder of Knights Templar) was Shi'ite and drawn from Sufism, a mystic belief in which Muslims seek to find divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God, the very thing the Roman Catholic Church had declared a no go area.

Evidence?

3 - The Templar order's "Muslim" Philosophy which sprang from a Sufi trend of Islamism, was then Shi'ite in concept.

Ref:

1 - The Knights Templar of the Middle East - HRH Prince Michael of Albany and Walid Amine Sahab (Book Link)

Pg XI

2 - Ibid pg 68

3 - Ibid pg 75

Although the authors of this book are attempting to paint the Templars as Sufis/Ismailis, but the reality from the symbolism of the Templars is that they were Twelver Athna Asheri Shia. There is no doubt about that.

Salaams

Sure... No room for doubt whatsoever...

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Bro I don't think you read into this thread properly. I think you missed a lot of arguments and evidence, such as the accusation of them worshipping baphomet, who was actually Mohamed, and stuff like that.

Also I doubt that umayyids would chose to call a city fatima. Wasn't it them who were there? And was it at that time?

Anyway there are lots of arguments you've missed it seems. Even if the theory concerning knights Templars is incorrect.

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