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Iqra

America's Great Hope

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I watched something necessary the other night, necessary for the legitimacy of America and it's interests around the world. Necessary for it's religion of capitalism and it's imperial ambition, which were not curbed in anyway with the election of an African American. Instead they gained perhaps the greatest spokesperson for their cause that they could have ever received. People that never felt inclusive now feel like part of America, like they have a personal stake in its success and for people that truly love this country, isn't that what you wanted? To have more people who live here proud of being an American? For many people Bush was never their president, to them he stole the first election and railroaded the second one with mired swift boat attacks on John Kerry's character while dodging facts about the mischaracterization of Iraq as somehow being involved in 9/11 and how the intelligence that led us to war was so badly distorted. Some surrogates even went as far as to suggest that Mr.Kerry might have inflicted the wounds on himself in Vietnam to receive a Purple Heart…

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JoM90bAsr1M

The same smear tactics were used all throughout this election, the same fear mongering and questions brought about Obama's faith, place of birth and his "relationship with terrorists." This cost the McCain campaign and it's supporters, opportunity and legitimacy about their complaints of the future 44th President. They went beyond the simple implications of the Clinton campaign deep into the territory of arousing the fear and hatred ingrained in the minds of white citizens all over America. And yet they were denied yesterday for good reason. The mob would not have tolerated it. His victory was a restoration of the crumbling belief in our democracy, because the loss of faith; that, my brother's and sisters is how empire's fall, not from simple military failure but when their people no longer believe in it. During the last few years of Bush, this is what I saw. I cannot answer if there would have been rioting would he have not won, but his ascension to the Commander in Chief has made a strong case for the people's choice being what and who control's America. When in truth the strength and power of Military Industry and Corporate Conglomerates saw more of a champion than any urban working class citizen could have, in Obama.

Through careful planning, timed responses, tactful alienation and one of the best organized campaigns, at long last the people of America have a man that they WANT to believe in, a man they can point to as an example of the death of racism, the birth of hope and the inclusion of member's of disaffected society in the United States. But is this to be?

Michelle Obama was right when she talked about feeling proud to be an American for the first time. And white conservatives took it out of context. They assumed that the Black and Latino community who have had the right to vote for the past 40 of the 221 years of this countries existence should kneel and kiss the ground of a land that is only now acknowledging their service and contribution. Truthfully I am more inspired by her words than most of his. And, I am reinforced in my understanding that a man (especially one that aspires to achieve anything significant) without the right woman to support him and offer him guidance will never amount anything. Her words were prophetic for they truly did speak to the manner in which urban Black and Latino people have embraced the USA.

As I said before this was necessary for America to do… To not follow in the footsteps of the Roman Empire in its alienation of the people's that it conquered. Their great mistake was NOT to include their allies and offer them the benefits of citizenships and partaking in the glory of what the empire gained as a reward for assimilation. Africans were on this side of the world before Columbus, but in US history they were brought as slaves, kept subservient through a Europeanized Christendom, and lied to about their glorious past, and their contributions to the history of humanity. After all it was Africans who comprised the power ranks of the early church, Africans who nursed the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and African Muslims who ruled Western Europe for over 700 years, that's more than 3 times as long as the United States has existed as a country.

They are a people who have fought hard for every small victory and seemingly insignificant right taken for granted nowadays. They fought and died in every major US war going to back to the very founding of this nation when Crispus Attucks was the first person to ever die for American Freedom from British Imperial rule. Yet every time they proved their bravery and willingness to lay down their lives for the nation of their captivity, subsequent birth and allegiance to, they were denied the honor of a well-deserved recognition. They were denied loans, given substandard housing, redlined into the ghetto, had their communities filled with drugs and their addictions criminalized whereas the upper class of white society had theirs treated as an illness. Africans have had their commitment to family and values overlooked by a media highlighting of the worst sections of society. The Black family did not fall apart until the crack era, for even during the times of slavery, it came together with more strength than ever! Because there were sisters who were looking after children who weren't theirs and brothers who played the father when their father's were sold off and gone.

Black people for all intents and purposes have a right to have certain cynicisms and grievances with America. Perhaps not as much as Native Americans but they wouldn't be the only ethnic group in the world to have a difficult relationship with the nation they live in. After all the world's nations are actually comprised of many nations most of which are included by right of conquest and not willing consent.

And yet November 4th I saw Black people in Harlem waving American flags proudly and loudly. I saw them painted red white and blue, chanting and cheering "USA, USA". I saw cops shaking hands with brothers from the hood who hate cops. I saw white college students who have gentrified Harlem and the last of Harlem's bulk of Black residents welcome them with open arms dancing in the streets because they were wearing Obama buttons or carrying Obama posters. He truly is a unifying force. He has changed the FACE of America, but now the question remains can he actually change America? Can he stop the war? Or can he just change it.

America has a new leader. To me personally I have always seen race a great illusion to justify slavery and build the capital for capitalism. His race is not as important as his design for the economy. But those who would think that we live in a post racial America are blind, and those who think that his minor experience will prevent him from acting with all the force of the greatest military power in the world will be surprised. His great strength is in his ability to listen and remember, to communicate and to inspire. To convince and to come up with the best explanation possible instead of perhaps some of the worst excuses for leadership, rationale for war and political nepotism that we have seen in America's history during Bush II.

But his victory, he was right to say was not his victory alone, it was also the resounding failure of the Right Wing Republicans. So much so that it seems as if people from the very onset on the right might have aided McCain's downfall to have the president they thought would be better for business in the neo liberal world of globalization.

McCain lost this election for many reasons though.

-McBush: His inability to distance and separate himself from George Bush and the fiscal crisis that came as result of economic policies of the 43rd president's administration. His pathetic attempt to make the difference known at the end of the 3rd presidential debate was too little, way too late.

-The "Right" Enemies: A person is often judged by their enemies, McCain lost to Obama because of his inability to curb what was first seen as the fringe of his party and eventually came to be seen as a significant % of the base. In some videos you can even see his own surprised and disturbed reaction to what his supporters believed. The rallies became more and more about hatred and not any issues of real consequences. I know Christians and Right Wingers that are logical independent voters and when they saw the Republican base questioning him being a Muslim (as if that was a crime), an antichrist, a socialist, and screaming out "terrorist", even the many of which had planned to back McCain/Palin were disgusted.

They looked at their own party as if to say I can't really believe that you're doing this to us now. If I were Obama I would have not feared these people, I would have engineered these people, and right now I would thank God for them. They cost McCain the election. Any rational debate that true fiscal and family values conservatives would have had were mixed in the same bag as these people.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVFWahLTdUo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl2EndLZv7w

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E

I would like to personally thank these idiots should they ever muster the courage to actually leave their Petri dish rural environment.

-The Palin Factor: Like I said, I know a few conservatives, most of them aren't religious zealots (although I do have some family like that) and they told me that in good conscious they couldn't vote for their ticket. The right wing talking points said that Obama and Palin had the same amount of experience. To which a Military officer who is a friend of mine snidely but honestly from the bottom of his war hardened heart responded, "experience being the same, she's incapable of answering a straight question, she's incompetent, she can't stand up to Putin or anyone else. I voted Obama." Truly her champions were people who cheered during the procession of The Emperor's new clothes. She was no Hillary.

Smart move old friend...

Right Wing Defectors: Colin Powell put the nail in McCain's coffin for all Republicans who were creatures of logic over blind faith. He spoke for those who wanted understanding about the real issue, the economy. McCain choose to focus on Ayers and other old professors instead. He lacked vision, thinking his party could influence the moderates and the independents with this. Instead Scott McClellan, Christopher Buckley, etc… became a testament to Obama being able to win over not just working class whites, but conservative whites, which he proved to be able to do in the home stretch.

http://tips.webdesign10.com/politics/more-...-obama-346.html

Duh, Economy: These are all compelling arguments, but none of them more of a resounding factor than the economy. Which McCain avoided!!! Had McCain chosen for example Mitt Romney as VP this race would have been much closer in some key states. Here was a well-spoken, respected and successful businessman. He was the most well known Republican after McCain. He made millions from his business, he understood the crisis from a definitively fiscal Republican base, and would have won independents who found no answers in the 2008 GOP ticket. Instead the economy became the blow that McCain/Palin never recovered from.

But what does this all mean?

Is the Revolution over? Hardly. Are the world's problems solved, not at all. Is Mumia going to get out of jail? I hope Mr.Obama looks into that but I bet it's not high on his list. The threat of terrorism isn't over nor is the threat of preemptive strikes. Should people of color now sign up for the Military now that the president looks like someone in their family? Stop it.

In order for Mr. Obama to have become America's president, he had to back Israel 100%, not mention of the suffering of Palestinians, so the Middle East will not change drastically. Rahm Emanuel whose father was a soldier in the Zionist paramilitary organization called "Irgun" was recently selected as his Chief of Staff. I reserve my judgment and approach with an open mind so as to not give into hypocrisy because a man is not always his father. I just hope Obama can inject different opinions as well as his powerful logic into that conversation. I hope he will normalize relations with Cuba, for the sake of everyone who has family they cannot see, but in order to win Florida he had to change his tone about it. He will not investigate 9/11 although I think that now that he has the power do to so he should not be afraid to use it. I hope he will look into that and into the origin of the faulty intelligence that led us into Iraq. He will be everyone's president, but the majority of white America doesn't see Malcolm X the way I do, nor did they see the Black panthers as freedom fighters, they saw them as terrorists, are we to give up our history and whitewash our heroes and praise those who kept us subservient because of this victory?

Racism hasn't disappeared and you can always tell a racist/ignorant person by their notion that because Obama is president that we live in a post racial America. It is a sign of progress, it is a great triumph for all people, (after all we forget Barack is half white too.) It is very inspirational, but inspiration alone doesn't complete a crusade.

I am sometimes accused of being too serious, which fools mistake for negativity. No I just understand that now the idea of Reparations for Blacks in America will be completely off the table. The powerful will remain powerful, the rich will stay rich and we gain advancement only in serving other's causes that we then accept as our own. He cannot change the past but he can change the future, and this more than anything is what I, and others are hoping he will be able to do expeditiously.

After all he only has 18 months from the time he is elected, until the next congressional election really gets into the swing of things, and Congress turn to the their own races. He will need to act quickly.

The price of having hope is sometimes disappointment, but the price of having no hope is always failure… That said I have a few main concerns for America's new Caesar: Repairing, regulating and reforming the economy, Healthcare for all the people of the richest country in the world. Bringing logic and reason to the war on terror and "war on drugs". And lastly the reason that many Latinos and Indigenous people voted for him and delivered in key battleground states. Stopping the criminalization of hardworking immigrants upon whose backs our great nation is built.

I am just a man, one of 300 million, and though my support base is massive, one of the largest in the underground. I know Mr.Obama will never read this. But I have hope for the future and any change from the last 8 years of this record gas price, record home foreclosure, record incompetence (Katrina & Bin Laden's 8 yr holiday) government is a good start to me. My cup of hope is full, but I sip it slowly, because hope is a powerful drug.

Remember, all politics is local, our job hasn't ended with the election it has just begun.

Que Viva La Revolucion,

Immortal

Technique

Edited by Iqra

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Iqra

I read your post with great interest and have put equal thought in my response.

In your opening paragraph you claim that our election was necessary for several American conditions. Among them you included �it�s(sic) religion of capitalism� and �it�s(sic) imperial ambition�. I hardly think we consider capitalism a religion but I have more of a problem with �imperial ambition�. Because America was blessed with protection by two great oceans and an abundance of natural resources we were able to develop through our formative years without harassment by Europe or other nations who coveted our resources. World wars I and II awoke our industry for production of war materiel. As a result of WWII America developed interests around the globe, America had to protect her interests and became a policeman of the world. History and geography brought us to this place in the world not imperialism.

The right wing conservatives brought shame on themselves by their attempts to smear Obama and to the credit of the majority of American voters they got nowhere. I do not believe that fear and hatred are ingrained in the hearts and minds of many white Americans. You said Obama�s election �was restoring the crumbling belief in our democracy�, who�s crumbling belief are you talking about surely not the American citizens? You also said �because of loss of faith; that, my brother�s(sic) and sisters is how empires fall, not from simple military failure but when people no longer believe in it.� I was rather concerned about what you were saying but after I read what I quoted last I realized you were speaking about someplace other than America like Iran, KSA or someplace. I have not even had an inkling of a thought about crumbling or losing faith in our nation.

Obama ran a masterful campaign and was helped by the economy but I am pretty sure he would have won anyway because of his stance on the war and healthcare to name just two issues. Does it bring the death of racism, I don�t think so but it certainly shows the racist how few they are.

Many people misunderstood what Michelle Obama said about her being �proud of America�. I love my country always, I am proud of my country most of the time, and I respect my country when it has earned it. Bush�s regime has earned very little respect.

You said it was necessary for America �not to follow in the footsteps of the Roman Empire in its alienation of the people�s (sic) that it conquered. Their great mistake was not to include their allies and offer them the benefits of citizenships and partaking of the glory�� I would hardly say the US conquered nations; I think it is too strong a word although we with allies have defeated nations at war. I thought the Romans offered citizenship to the nations they defeated hence the Empire stayed together for so long. Where were the Africans in the western hemisphere before Columbus where you stated �but in US history they were brought as slaves.� There was no US when the Danes, I think, brought the first slaves to America and England brought indentured servants. Much of what you say sounds like it came from the Nation of Islam.

Let�s hope that the euphoric aftermath of the election turns into long lasting cooperation between all classes of our society. Relating this to sports a coach can be a great recruiter who is not good at teaching and coaching or a coach can be a fine recruiter and manager of the talent he has gathered and I hope Obama is the later of course.

Was Obama�s victory his, I think so, or a failure of the right wing conservatives? I hope it was Obama�s victory and America is tired of the right wing meddling in the affair of the bedroom and other personal issues.

I will finish my response when I have more time.

Peace

Satyaban

Edited by satyaban

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Iqra

I read your post with great interest and have put equal thought in my response.

In your opening paragraph you claim that our election was necessary for several American conditions. Among them you included �it�s(sic) religion of capitalism� and �it�s(sic) imperial ambition�. I hardly think we consider capitalism a religion but I have more of a problem with �imperial ambition�. Because America was blessed with protection by two great oceans and an abundance of natural resources we were able to develop through our formative years without harassment by Europe or other nations who coveted our resources. World wars I and II awoke our industry for production of war materiel. As a result of WWII America developed interests around the globe, America had to protect her interests and became a policeman of the world. History and geography brought us to this place in the world not imperialism.

The right wing conservatives brought shame on themselves by their attempts to smear Obama and to the credit of the majority of American voters they got nowhere. I do not believe that fear and hatred are ingrained in the hearts and minds of many white Americans. You said Obama�s election �was restoring the crumbling belief in our democracy�, who�s crumbling belief are you talking about surely not the American citizens? You also said �because of loss of faith; that, my brother�s(sic) and sisters is how empires fall, not from simple military failure but when people no longer believe in it.� I was rather concerned about what you were saying but after I read what I quoted last I realized you were speaking about someplace other than America like Iran, KSA or someplace. I have not even had an inkling of a thought about crumbling or losing faith in our nation.

Obama ran a masterful campaign and was helped by the economy but I am pretty sure he would have won anyway because of his stance on the war and healthcare to name just two issues. Does it bring the death of racism, I don�t think so but it certainly shows the racist how few they are.

Many people misunderstood what Michelle Obama said about her being �proud of America�. I love my country always, I am proud of my country most of the time, and I respect my country when it has earned it. Bush�s regime has earned very little respect.

You said it was necessary for America �not to follow in the footsteps of the Roman Empire in its alienation of the people�s (sic) that it conquered. Their great mistake was not to include their allies and offer them the benefits of citizenships and partaking of the glory�� I would hardly say the US conquered nations; I think it is too strong a word although we with allies have defeated nations at war. I thought the Romans offered citizenship to the nations they defeated hence the Empire stayed together for so long. Where were the Africans in the western hemisphere before Columbus where you stated �but in US history they were brought as slaves.� There was no US when the Danes, I think, brought the first slaves to America and England brought indentured servants. Much of what you say sounds like it came from the Nation of Islam.

Let�s hope that the euphoric aftermath of the election turns into long lasting cooperation between all classes of our society. Relating this to sports a coach can be a great recruiter who is not good at teaching and coaching or a coach can be a fine recruiter and manager of the talent he has gathered and I hope Obama is the later of course.

Was Obama�s victory his, I think so, or a failure of the right wing conservatives? I hope it was Obama�s victory and America is tired of the right wing meddling in the affair of the bedroom and other personal issues.

I will finish my response when I have more time.

Peace

Satyaban

I appreciate your reply Satyaban, but this statement wasn't written by me - it was written by the New York rapper and activist Immortal Technique.

I will wait for your next post, and then perhaps try and answer for Technique.

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Immortal Technique is woefully ignorant of what's actually happening in the world. The US is just a game piece deliberately steered and driven by powers not attached to it at all - all designed to turn 'the world' against it in order to further assimilate its remnants - along with the rest of the world -into something far more encompassing and totalitarian. When everyone gets their wish for the 'tyrant' to be brought down, they will not even understand that they are now even more enslaved than they thought they were by the US. This is not a justification for the US or an apology, but some people ought to not make foolish statements when they are ignorant of what's happening.

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Immortal Technique is woefully ignorant of what's actually happening in the world. The US is just a game piece deliberately steered and driven by powers not attached to it at all - all designed to turn 'the world' against it in order to further assimilate its remnants - along with the rest of the world -into something far more encompassing and totalitarian. When everyone gets their wish for the 'tyrant' to be brought down, they will not even understand that they are now even more enslaved than they thought they were by the US. This is not a justification for the US or an apology, but some people ought to not make foolish statements when they are ignorant of what's happening.

I don't see how someone can come to the conclusion that Technique is ignorant about what happens in the world. The man tours all over the Middle East, Central and Latin America and Africa, aims all his lyrics at issues such as Palestine, Iraq, the coca-trade, neo-colonialism, Capitalism, Socialism, etc ... and is somehow ignorant of the world? Do you know about his charity work for Omeid International?

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Yes, and the US is the imperialist power in those areas being USED to turn everyone against the US, itself. Since world opinion has been steered successfully towards this end - the time is now ripe to bring down the US itself - while those that took over the US in order to achieve this end simply set up shop elsewhere and further consolidate their hold over their global penal colony.

IT may understand the most immediate thing seen - the US - but he doesn't at all deal with nor even try to see beyond this to who the real power is that is causing the destruction and enslavement of the world - including the US. For instance, he blames 'Bush' for 9-11 - and many other things. Yet, Bush is a puppet - a tool - and only that. He doesn't make policy. He just follows orders - and these orders are not specifically 'given' to him. He is played like a fiddle. Just as IT is, who is REACTING to the 'stimuli' to 'blame' as planned. And his 'hope' for something good or postive from the latest puppet and tool is simply naive, at best. Sure, we can reserve judgement on Obama's policies until he actually is in the position - but the foundation is already corrupted - from the system he participates within to the actual 'friends' he surrounds himself with - not to mention those who will be in his administration. Of course, all things are a 'blessing' for growth and learning - so there's no need to go down the 'doom and gloom' road. However, going down the 'yellow brick road' to nowhere where the lessons aren't learned until the nail is in the coffin is what many are doing specifically because they are living in the illusion, itself.

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Yes, and the US is the imperialist power in those areas being USED to turn everyone against the US, itself. Since world opinion has been steered successfully towards this end - the time is now ripe to bring down the US itself - while those that took over the US in order to achieve this end simply set up shop elsewhere and further consolidate their hold over their global penal colony.

IT may understand the most immediate thing seen - the US - but he doesn't at all deal with nor even try to see beyond this to who the real power is that is causing the destruction and enslavement of the world - including the US. For instance, he blames 'Bush' for 9-11 - and many other things. Yet, Bush is a puppet - a tool - and only that. He doesn't make policy. He just follows orders - and these orders are not specifically 'given' to him. He is played like a fiddle. Just as IT is, who is REACTING to the 'stimuli' to 'blame' as planned. And his 'hope' for something good or postive from the latest puppet and tool is simply naive, at best. Sure, we can reserve judgement on Obama's policies until he actually is in the position - but the foundation is already corrupted - from the system he participates within to the actual 'friends' he surrounds himself with - not to mention those who will be in his administration. Of course, all things are a 'blessing' for growth and learning - so there's no need to go down the 'doom and gloom' road. However, going down the 'yellow brick road' to nowhere where the lessons aren't learned until the nail is in the coffin is what many are doing specifically because they are living in the illusion, itself.

None of what you have said has been contradicted by Immortal. In fact, the article echoes everything you've said.

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Iqra

Contrary to seeing Obama’s victory a result of the right wing’s failure I see this election as a victory engineered by Obama and his campaign managers. That is unless you are talking about the Right’s failures of the last eight years. For much of those eight years citizens were in a sort of post 9/11 shock and the conservatives went wild. The Patriot Act with part threatening our civil rights, wire taps out of control, cruel treatment at Gitmo, torture I still find it hard to believe America had torture a part of SOP, farming out prisoners for despicable treatment and a VP making up his own rules as he went along man I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. The conservatives knew they would lose campaigning on issues so they tried to make it an election of personalities. Did you know that McCain hired the same people that Bush use in 2004, the folks who spread the rumour in N. Carolina that he had a bi racial love child when what really happened was that he and his wife adopted an Asian child which caused him to lose the N. Carolina primary in 2004 and stopped his campaign cold after winning New Hampshire. Choosing Palin as a VP candidate was a huge mistake and I think McCain knew it two weeks after the Republican convention. She brought nothing to the ticket but she made great fodder for comedians.

As you say Colin Powell brought the last of the moderate Republicans to Obama. Personally I have great respect for Powell because he knows what he’s doing. You see Powell was the ideal soldier even at the UN. When he made that regretful speech at the UN he was the good soldier in that he followed his orders. It is a soldier’s duty to follow orders as long as the orders are legal.

I don’t know what difference Romney would have made because there are many Americans who are suspicious of Mormons which includes my mother who is a Southern Baptist. The Southern Baptist became a separate entity over the issue of slavery. As is indicated by their name they used the Bible to support slavery but don’t make the mistake of thinking my mother is a racist she is not.

What is Obama going to do now? Unfortunately the economy will slow down his work for a while but I look for the withdrawal of troops from Iraq, closing down Gitmo, make sure that no one tortures our prisoners to include other nations, have talks at some level with Iran, amend the Patriot Act and of equal importance try to settle the Israeli- Palestinian issue. I hope he does it by supporting an Israel that moves back to in 1967 borders and abandons the settlements so that the Palestinians can have a nation of their own for the first time ever. However I do not see this happening. 1700 years of animosity and distrust, this didn’t start in 1948, may never go away. What a pity.

Peace

Satyaban

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Iqra:

occasionally and I agree. However I don’t know if Obama’s election should have an impact on who joins the US military. Obama is America’ s president and his loyalty is to the Constitution of The United States of America. There will be many crises and many stumbling blocks but the base from which they are dealt with be different and much of what the conservatives did will be reversed and we will have new growth in the areas of science to include global warming and stem cell research. I am also looking for progress in taking care of our planet and revolutions in energy. But we must keep in mind that it takes a bit of compromise to get things done in Washington where it is said, “If you want a loyal friend get a dog”

Obama doesn’t have to back Israel 100% I don’t think anyone does. We can guarantee Israel’s existence with supporting everything She does. I think we should demand that Israel abandon the settlements and move back within Her 1967 boundaries. That would put Israel on higher moral ground if the rockets continue to fall on Israel. Our position on Cuba is absurd and needs to change immediately. Obama is not going to reinvestigate 9/11 because none is needed to determine blame. Anyone who thinks that it was an American conspiracy probably believes in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Even looking at it with humanity removed the number of people involved in such a thing would be huge and the secrecy would breakdown and would not be carried through not in America but some would rather believe in conspiracy rather than accept a truth that breaks down their bias and world view.

It will be a very exciting time in the next four years but I will be happy if Obama just reverses the work of the conservatives.

Peace

Satyaban

And_more.doc

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Because America was blessed with protection by two great oceans and an abundance of natural resources we were able to develop through our formative years without harassment by Europe or other nations who coveted our resources. World wars I and II awoke our industry for production of war materiel. As a result of WWII America developed interests around the globe, America had to protect her interests and became a policeman of the world. History and geography brought us to this place in the world not imperialism.

I think you’re not emphasising the roles that imperialism, slavery, genocide and colonialism played in building up the US into the superpower that it is today. You claim that the US gained it’s wealth through geographically being in a unique position – that of the ‘New World’, the paradise that John Locke saw as he great ‘state of nature’ where there were no scarcity of resources. The geographical location of the US in a land of ‘natural’ abundance is severely exaggerated in American education, almost to the point of suggesting that the pioneers were a chosen people who were bestowed their land by God. In reality, the land was expropriated from the native Indians using methods which would today be considered ethnic cleansing and terrorism. I don’t deny that the early settlers were escaping British tyranny and oppression – but they became a totally different people once they actually gained independence.

You said Obama�s election �was restoring the crumbling belief in our democracy�, who�s crumbling belief are you talking about surely not the American citizens?

The crumbling belief was due to the absolute farce of an election results in 2000 which brought George W. Bush into the Whitehouse, and his subsequent re-election after gaining a pitiful 2.4% advantage over Kerry. Can a democracy which awards a man presidency on the basis of 2.4% of the electorate really be considered fair and just? This is not a direct criticism of democracy in the US – but in the Western world as a whole.

I have not even had an inkling of a thought about crumbling or losing faith in our nation.

Immortal Technique speaks from the perspective of a Peruvian born Harlemite – he’s been to prison, and spent his entire life in the dregs of US society – places that the majority of White Americans will never see in their lifetime, nor wish to acknowledge. I know you maintain a spiritual connection with India and Hinduism, but you must at least concede that your consciousness is determined by the circumstances under which you were raised – as well as the physical reality of your being. You being a White, middle-aged male will most likely mean that you will not have to endure what those living in the ghettos of the US, France, Britain, etc have to endure. As such – you do not see the world in the same way that we do. When people here in the UK vote for Boris Johnson as a protest vote – do they consider the fact that all of us ethnic minorities will have to bear the brunt of his racist policies?

Obama ran a masterful campaign and was helped by the economy but I am pretty sure he would have won anyway because of his stance on the war and healthcare to name just two issues. Does it bring the death of racism, I don�t think so but it certainly shows the racist how few they are.

I think we need to stop thinking of racism as the caricature that it’s painted as by political pundits and mainstream media. To them, racism only exists when a member of the KKK firebombs a church in Birmingham, or a skinhead viciously attacks an elderly Black woman on her way to the supermarket. I’d like to think that racism is dying in the US – but if the events following 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina have shown us, they’re still alive and well.

I would hardly say the US conquered nations; I think it is too strong a word although we with allies have defeated nations at war.

The US has stuck it’s nose into the affairs of countries throughout the globe since its inception. The US has engaged in wars, deposed regimes, administered propaganda and interfered in sovereign nations without gasping for breath – my own country had Mossadegh overthrown by a CIA coup. There is a theory by Immanuel Kant known as the ‘perpetual peace theory’ – which he stipulates that democracies do not go to war with other democracies. If the Nixon administration and foreign policy under Henry Kissinger, work of scholars like Hans Morgenthau, John Mearsheimer, Kenneth Waltz and other proponents of Real-Politik have taught us anything – is that the US conquers nations when it sees it’s own interests being threatened. It may not always be through all out warfare – but the end result is the same. How can the US have pride over not officially ‘conquering’ nations when it has made entire continents unstable? Similarly, what moral high-ground does the US hold in not conquering nations when it’s ideology is forced onto peoples all over the world? Any regime that does not pursue free-market policies or other aspects of neo-liberal doctrine are labelled as the enemy, and those cultures which hold God superior to the all-mighty dollar are slammed by US groups such as Human-Rights Watch as being backwards.

Where were the Africans in the western hemisphere before Columbus where you stated

Cheikh Anta Diop deals with this topic extensively in his work The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality.

1700 years of animosity and distrust, this didn’t start in 1948, may never go away. What a pity.

I totally disagree with this statement, and think of it as one of the most widely-accepted myths in the Western world about the Palestine/Israeli situation. Somehow there has been this conception that Jews and Muslims have been at war with each other for centuries before the Balfour Agreement or 1948, and that this conflict is a microcosm of some sort of clash of civilisations between Judaism and Islam. Nothing is further from the truth. Not only have the in Palestine Jews not historically suffered from oppression under Muslim rule – they were the very ones that we sought to protect against Christian fundamentalists and crusaders. Who was it that protected their rights, enabled them to worship, protected them from Christian attacks and let them immerse themselves into the rich Palestinian culture? It was the Muslim Arabs. This is why, as Ilan Pappe (an Israeli historian, mind) documents in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine that many Jews within Palestine at the time of the Nakba refused to leave the sides of their Muslim neighbours. 1948 started because European Jews wanted it to – it had nothing to do with some sort of Middle-Eastern schism or conflict that predates history. This theory is a product of Orientalist discourse which needs to be eradicated from the political sphere - especially if a real solution is ever to be found.

Obama doesn’t have to back Israel 100% I don’t think anyone does.

History has taught us that presidential candidates that oppose Israel are targeted by Israeli lobbyists, the most powerful within the United States according to John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, and are never to grace the Whitehouse. Name me one President who has opposed Israel?

Edited by Iqra

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Iqra:

I don’t understand why many people remark that slavery helped make this country great. If you read the letters of many of our founding fathers written during and immediately before the writing of the Constitution many wanted to end slavery then and there but to get the southern states to sign on it had to be included. Slavery was only good for farm work on plantations. Because the South held on to slavery it kept the plantation system profitable and disinclined the South to industry. Of course it was an issue in our Civil War, which brought an end to slavery, and caused great damage to Southern infrastructure. I think slavery cost my country very much.

When people came to this “New World” they had no idea of the abundance of resources that were and I do not think they were exaggerated. These resources were bestowed on the land and people settled it no one thought they were chosen people. As the population spread west they were struggling to survive in a wilderness and did not feel chosen. But do you know what they did feel? It was equality with their neighbours that they felt. You see they were from many places in Europe and they had to drop all their petty grievances and differences from Europe because they needed each other to survive. I believe that this still is a basic trait lasting even until today. Serbs, Slavs, Dutch, Prussians etc had to put away their grievances and biases and hatred of one another on the frontier.

You also mentioned the Native peoples, who we called Indians because of a mistake in geography in the 15th century, and the abuse of them. What you said is absolutely right but we have to judge the men who committed those actions in their time not ours. Perhaps in would not be to far stretched to compare Native Americans to the “infidels” when Islam was sweeping westward.

Apparently the elections of 2000 and 2004 made a greater impression on you than us. There was no “crumbling” of democracy and let me tell you why. To be sure there were problems in 2000 and our nation skirted with no having a president for some period of time. The Supreme Court has to make a decision to avoid that so they made the decision, it was not the best one but that was it. In the 2004 election Bush won by a very small amount but by our laws he won, again another decision I did not like. But this is America not Venezuela or a nation where an election is rigged and laws are changed to create a President for life or their son continues to rule as in Syria. This is America where a President serves for 4 years or 8 years if re-elected but we have faith in our government and Constitution that there will be elections to follow so there is no crumbling of democracy here. We have a saying that is used on office holders who leave something to be desired and that is “Throw the rascals out!”

I don’t know who this fellow “Immortal Technique” is but you say he is Peruvian. I have lived in shelters, abandoned houses and other places in the ghetto where gunfire was heard almost every night and people shot on my block. I have also been a member of the upper middle class, held good jobs and held no job at all. I have walked in the path of many American life styles and classes.

I will continue tomorrow.

Peace

Satyaban

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I think we need to stop thinking of racism as the caricature that it’s painted as by political pundits and mainstream media. To them, racism only exists when a member of the KKK firebombs a church in Birmingham, or a skinhead viciously attacks an elderly Black woman on her way to the supermarket. I’d like to think that racism is dying in the US – but if the events following 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina have shown us, they’re still alive and well.

I think you have a mental picture of America where whites roam around looking for innocent old blacks ladies to pick on, where blacks cower in fear of there lives, venturing out only in daylight and in safety of numbers...

Actually if you looked up the official numbers regarding interracial crime in America, you'd find that in fact the victims in these cases are more often whites by many orders of magnitude, than blacks. However, seldom if ever, do you hear of these black on white crimes being labeled as hate crimes by either the press, or the politicos and (especially so) the law enforcement agencies that keep track of the stats.

Edited by wisken

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Actually if you looked up the official numbers regarding interracial crime in America, you'd find that in fact the victims in these cases are more often whites by many orders of magnitude, than blacks. However, seldom if ever, do you hear of these black on white crimes being labeled as hate crimes by either the press, or the politicos and (especially so) the law enforcement agencies that keep track of the stats.

Can you provide a link to these numbers?

think you have a mental picture of America where whites roam around looking for innocent old blacks ladies to pick on, where blacks cower in fear of there lives, venturing out only in daylight and in safety of numbers...

You're missing the point of what I was saying. I was saying that racism doesn't exist in the caricature that you pointed out. Instead of focusing on statistics of Black on White race-crimes, or White on Black race-crime as an indication of whether or not society in the US is racist or not - we should instead look at the sectors in which racism has manifested itself - entertainment, education, labour, politics, law, religion, sex, war and economics.

Edited by Iqra

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Can you provide a link to these numbers?

You're missing the point of what I was saying. I was saying that racism doesn't exist in the caricature that you pointed out. Instead of focusing on statistics of Black on White race-crimes, or White on Black race-crime as an indication of whether or not society in the US is racist or not - we should instead look at the sectors in which racism has manifested itself - entertainment, education, labour, politics, law, religion, sex, war and economics.

Here's one link for starters: The DOJ site

Also read this page... the whole page.

I admit I missed your point. However, IMO the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons (and you radicals across the pond :) ) are the only ones who still see racism as big a force in the US as it was 50 years ago. There might be a subtle racism going on sure, but ultimately racism is in the heart or mind, and you cannot legislate or force a change in one's thinking. I don't think its as entrenched as you imagine it to be.

Its as if you're thinking Bush told his white chief of FEMA to discreetly pass the word down the white ranks (and keep it to whites only, please) to delay and drag out the response to Katrina as long as they could... eff the blacks, let 'em drown/starve...?

Not likely.

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Iqra:

I don't remember your response to this.

don’t understand why many people remark that slavery helped make this country great. If you read the letters of many of our founding fathers written during and immediately before the writing of the Constitution many wanted to end slavery then and there but to get the southern states to sign on it had to be included. Slavery was only good for farm work on plantations. Because the South held on to slavery it kept the plantation system profitable and disinclined the South to industry. Of course it was an issue in our Civil War, which brought an end to slavery, and caused great damage to Southern infrastructure. I think slavery cost my country very much.

When people came to this “New World” they had no idea of the abundance of resources that were and I do not think they were exaggerated. These resources were bestowed on the land and people settled it no one thought they were chosen people. As the population spread west they were struggling to survive in a wilderness and did not feel chosen. But do you know what they did feel? It was equality with their neighbours that they felt. You see they were from many places in Europe and they had to drop all their petty grievances and differences from Europe because they needed each other to survive. I believe that this still is a basic trait lasting even until today. Serbs, Slavs, Dutch, Prussians etc had to put away their grievances and biases and hatred of one another on the frontier.

You also mentioned the Native peoples, who we called Indians because of a mistake in geography in the 15th century, and the abuse of them. What you said is absolutely right but we have to judge the men who committed those actions in their time not ours. Perhaps in would not be to far stretched to compare Native Americans to the “infidels” when Islam was sweeping westward.

Apparently the elections of 2000 and 2004 made a greater impression on you than us. There was no “crumbling” of democracy and let me tell you why. To be sure there were problems in 2000 and our nation skirted with no having a president for some period of time. The Supreme Court has to make a decision to avoid that so they made the decision, it was not the best one but that was it. In the 2004 election Bush won by a very small amount but by our laws he won, again another decision I did not like. But this is America not Venezuela or a nation where an election is rigged and laws are changed to create a President for life or their son continues to rule as in Syria. This is America where a President serves for 4 years or 8 years if re-elected but we have faith in our government and Constitution that there will be elections to follow so there is no crumbling of democracy here. We have a saying that is used on office holders who leave something to be desired and that is “Throw the rascals out!”

I don’t know who this fellow “Immortal Technique” is but you say he is Peruvian. I have lived in shelters, abandoned houses and other places in the ghetto where gunfire was heard almost every night and people shot on my block. I have also been a member of the upper middle class, held good jobs and held no job at all. I have walked in the path of many American life styles and classes.

I will continue tomorrow.

Peace

Satyaban

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Here's one link for starters: The DOJ site

Also read this page... the whole page.

I admit I missed your point. However, IMO the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons (and you radicals across the pond :) ) are the only ones who still see racism as big a force in the US as it was 50 years ago. There might be a subtle racism going on sure, but ultimately racism is in the heart or mind, and you cannot legislate or force a change in one's thinking. I don't think its as entrenched as you imagine it to be.

Its as if you're thinking Bush told his white chief of FEMA to discreetly pass the word down the white ranks (and keep it to whites only, please) to delay and drag out the response to Katrina as long as they could... eff the blacks, let 'em drown/starve...?

Not likely.

This is really strange - I could have sworn that I replied to this :wacko:

No matter.

In regards to the first link, the statistics provided only paint a picture of crimes commited by demographic and not in relation to racial motivation. If they perhaps detailed whether or not the crime was racially motivated it would give a better indication as to whether you are right or not. However, seeing as most African-Americans and Hispanics live in the lower income-bracket it would only be logical that they would be commiting more crimes against Whites than vice-versa - however, I still maintain that in terms of racist attacks, Blacks and other ethnic minorities in the US are far more likely to be victimised by Whites than vice-versa.

Also, the second link that you gave does not work.

Furthermore, I do accept that this is of course your opinion. We all have political views, and they are for the most part a product of our own world-view and experience. But then what do you say to all the ethnic minorities that do still see racism as rife in the West today? Surveys are constantly being done, and time and time again it has been proven that racism is still very much alive and well, not to mention all the incidents which crop up in the news which remind us of it's dominance:

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory...80652#compstory

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...set/7721813.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...ire/3764470.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotlan...est/6945201.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-...im-1201808.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/sep/08/race.schools

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This is really strange - I could have sworn that I replied to this :wacko:

No matter.

In regards to the first link, the statistics provided only paint a picture of crimes commited by demographic and not in relation to racial motivation. If they perhaps detailed whether or not the crime was racially motivated it would give a better indication as to whether you are right or not. However, seeing as most African-Americans and Hispanics live in the lower income-bracket it would only be logical that they would be commiting more crimes against Whites than vice-versa - however, I still maintain that in terms of racist attacks, Blacks and other ethnic minorities in the US are far more likely to be victimised by Whites than vice-versa.

Come on now....if its whites doing it, its racially motivated, and if its blacks doing it, well its just economics?

So blacks hate rich people, many of whom just happen to be white? Imagine if whites were to offer up that excuse..., "uh judge, I don't hate blacks, I just hate poor people!"

Actually most law enforcement agencies/the media/Hollywood etc., are extremely loathe to label ANY non-white on white crime as racially motivated, while white on non-white crime is much more easily pigeon-holed as "hate" crime.

Also, the second link that you gave does not work.

Furthermore, I do accept that this is of course your opinion. We all have political views, and they are for the most part a product of our own world-view and experience. But then what do you say to all the ethnic minorities that do still see racism as rife in the West today? Surveys are constantly being done, and time and time again it has been proven that racism is still very much alive and well, not to mention all the incidents which crop up in the news which remind us of it's dominance:

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory...80652#compstory

Of course ethnic minorities will always see themselves as disadvantaged and bullied or put upon by the majority. Nevertheless, you don't see these minorities making a beeline for greener pastures elsewhere do you?

Name one country with a minority that says things are hunky dory and that they have zero problems with any aspect of life as a minority...!!

In any case please do yourself a favor visit the DoJ website and see all the gory details. In particular, see Table 42, on page 38 of this document (2006 stats).

Look at the numbers for Completed Crimes, Rapes, etc.

One interesting quote from the link you provided above:

The survey, conducted by the University of Chicago, shows nearly one half of the black youths believe that the government treats immigrants better than black people...."They do feel quite alienated, almost like secondary citizens at times in this country. So, the rhetoric of a colour-blind society where you're only judged on merit is not their reality," said Cathy.

Well, duh...of course! This Cathy Cohen (a professor, no less!) is completely oblivious to the irony in her statement. Merit and not favorable treatment is exactly what has propelled more recent immigrants into the American mainstream. There are no university quotas, or interest free loans, or a silver spoon, or whatever else that Filipinos, or Chinese, or Indians or any of the other perceived "favored" minorities are supposedly given upon arrival into the country.

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