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zuhair_naqvi

Consequences of tabarra

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Isn't this a contradiction to Khutba-e-Shaqshaqya?

Now they snatched Fidak and u are saying that they didn't love Ahle Bayt?

So do u deem that these Sheikheen would go to Jannat?

only Allah knows where they're going

i know that i dont like them but i don't curse them

i know what they did and Allah is the judge

we haven't got a single sahih hadith where they were cursed by the infallible imams (as)

they didn't hate ahlbeit but they oppressed them and did a big damage but they weren't nawasib like muawya and the others

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only Allah knows where they're going

i know that i dont like them but i don't curse them

i know what they did and Allah is the judge

we haven't got a single sahih hadith where they were cursed by the infallible imams (as)

they didn't hate ahlbeit but they oppressed them and did a big damage but they weren't nawasib like muawya and the others

Isn't Khutba-e-Shaqshaqya authentic?

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not at all

he exposed them and their oppression but there's no cursing

I am confused now?

Clearly exposition of their oppression directly means to curse them.

Now if u have different point of view then brother tell me that was Ali(as) satisfied with Sheikheen?

in other words did Ali(as) like Sheikheen.

If YES so can u cite any authentic Shia Hadith?

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they were oppressors but they didn't hate ahlbeit they were power thirsty

omar said when asked why they took khilafat away from ali(as) he answered: we did this not out of hatred for ali but because we thought he was young and that

quraish will never approve of him

sayed alkhoei also said that the shaikhain didnt hate ali (as)

Imam Ali(as)call's, Abu Bakr kaffir in the book called Fatima The Gracious, Allah(swt) curse's oppressor's and dictator's in the quran

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I am confused now?

Clearly exposition of their oppression directly means to curse them.

Now if u have different point of view then brother tell me that was Ali(as) satisfied with Sheikheen?

in other words did Ali(as) like Sheikheen.

If YES so can u cite any authentic Shia Hadith?

he didnt like their deeds and their greed

he was very dismayed(as) because they betrayed him but he didn't curse them

Imam Ali(as)call's, Abu Bakr kaffir in the book called Fatima The Gracious, Allah(swt) curse's oppressor's and dictator's in the quran

imam ali never said abu bakr is kaffir so would u please shows us the narration with chain of narrators

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he didnt like their deeds and their greed

he was very dismayed(as) because they betrayed him but he didn't curse them

imam ali never said abu bakr is kaffir so would u please shows us the narration with chain of narrators

im looking for the source saying that doe's not Allah curse oppressor and dictator's

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I have cut and paste from an Anti Shia forum though but Amilcar u have read some books so therefore I hope that u could also tell that whether this tradition is authentic or not, my job is to present and rest lies for u to check its veracity.

"Huziifah Bin Yaman narrates: Once on the 9th of Rabiul Awwal I went to Rasulullah. I saw Ameerul Mu'mineen Ali Murtaza, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain also there. All were busy eating. Rasulullah smiling in great happiness said to Hasan and Husain: 'Sons, today is the day on which Allah will destroy your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather, and Allah will accept the curse of your mother (Fatimah). Eat sons, eat I Today is the day that Allah accepts the deeds of your Shiah (partisans), and beloved. Eat sons, eat! Today is the day when the power of your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather will be broken and annihilated in the dust. Eat sons, eat! Today is the day when Fir'on to my Ahle Bait, the one who will oppress and persecute them and who will usurp their rights, will be destroyed."

Huzaifah said: I exclaimed: 'O Rasulullah! Will there be such an evil person in your Ummah, who will perpetrate such villainy?'

Rasulullah replied: 'O Huzaifah!

Among the munafiqs (hypocrites) there will be one idol who will be the leader of the group of munafiqeen. He will carry in his hand the whip of cruelty and injustice; he will prevent people from the Path of truth; he will alter the Qur'an; he will change my Sunnah and my ways; he will oppress my Wasi (Appointee), Ali Bin Abi Talib and he will deprive my daughter, Fatimah of her rights. My daughter will then curse him. Allah Ta'ala will accept her la'nat (curse) and prayers.' Huzaifah then said: 'O Rasulullah! Why do you not supplicate to Allah to destroy this Fir'on and oppressor in your very lifetime?'

Rasulullah replied: 'O Huzaifah! I do not regard it proper to interfere in the decisions of Allah Ta'ala... But, I have requested Allah Ta'ala to grant excellence and superiority to that day when that oppressor and Fir'on is dispatched to Jahannum (e.i. when he is destroyed). That day should be decreed superior to all other days so that honoring of that day becomes a Sunnah for my Shiane Ahle Bait (i.e. partisans of my family). Allah Ta'ala then sent this Wahi (revelation):

'It has already been decreed in My Eternal Knowledge that the usurping Munafiqs will persecute you and your family. They will inflict many hardships on you and your family. O Muhammad! Ali has been awarded your rank because of these (impending) hardships which will be perpetrated on him by the usurper of his rights and the Fir'on of this Ummah. I have commanded the angels of the seven heavens to rejoice and celebrate Eid on the day he (i.e. Hadhrat Umar) is killed - this is for the sake of the partisans and lovers of the Ahle Bait. I have commanded the recording Angels to cease recording the sins of My servants for three days from that day. This is in honor of that day (on which Hadhrat Umar will be murdered). O Muhammad! Three days grace and permission in general to commit sins have been given in your honor and in honor of your appointee (Ali) ... Every year on this day, will I free from Jahannam thousands of your Shiahs.' Huzaifah says: 'After Rasulullah said this, he arose and left the room and went to the house of Umme Salmah. After having heard this talk of Rasulullah I was convinced of Umar's kufr. There remained no doubt in this. Finally, after the demise of Rasulullah, I witnessed the fitnah which he (Umar) created. He exhibited the kufr which was concealed in him. He reneged from Islam and usurped the Imamate and Khilafate. To achieve this end he adopted the most shameless methods. He altered the Qur'an and burnt the holy house of Rasulullah. He pleased the Jews, Christians and the Magians and displeased Fatimah and the entire Ahle Bait, and he conspired to have Ameerul Mu'meen (i.e. Hadhrat Ali) murdered. He made haram what Allah had made halal and legalized what Allah had made unlawful. He slammed the door against the face and stomach of Fatimah Alayhis Salaam. Huzaifah then said:

'Finally Allah Ta'ala accepted the curses of His Holy Nabi and his daughter in regard to this Munafiq (i.e. Hadhrat Umar) and had him killed at the hands, of his killer (Abu Lu'lu' Irani). May there be the Rahmat (Mercy) of Allah on his (Umar's) killer."

(Zadul Ma'ad - Pages 433-436)

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It's your point of view not mine. I don't see the events that took place after the death of the Prophet like this. So We don't have the same ideology on cursing, infallibility, imamat etc....

Well, most historians would agree that, in practice, Abou Bakr and co. taking over the Caliphate instead of our Imams is equivalent to the victory of politics over theology/faith/religion.

For instance, Mu'awiya's arguments were all based on policies, community life organization, etc. while our Imam's message was not merely inspired by on-the-ground realities. Some orientalists go as far as saying that Mu'awiya's "victory" was one of political hability over what they described as "the eternal struggle between good and evil, justice and injustice" carried on by the Ahlu-el-Bayt.

Therefore, it is only from your point of view that you see this history as mere politics. It saddens me to see that some shiites agree with this. THIS history was supposed to happen. The Ahlu-el-Bayt saw it coming and without it, Islam as we know it, would've been non-existent. Let's not forget : Ashura saved Islam. And whoever contributed to the happening of these atrocities against the Ahlu-el-Bayt does not hold a place close to Allah.

Edited by shiabrains

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You guys are using your feelings to understand historical events. That's very bad.

Abu Bakr was never thursty for power, he lived abstemiously. As for Umar, if he wouldn't have been select by Abu Bakr to succeed him, I don't think he would snatched the CALIPHAT from the "other" succesor" of Abu Bakr. As for Uthman, he just accepted to follow the path of Abu Bakr and Umar (As a muqallid of those two). Imam Ali (as) refused to follow the path of Abu Bakr, and Umar, because he wanted to leave opened the door of IJTIHAD.

All hadiths of our Ahlul Beyt cursing the 3 and Aisha are fake even if it's sahih.

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I have cut and paste from an Anti Shia forum though but Amilcar u have read some books so therefore I hope that u could also tell that whether this tradition is authentic or not, my job is to present and rest lies for u to check its veracity.

"Huziifah Bin Yaman narrates: Once on the 9th of Rabiul Awwal I went to Rasulullah. I saw Ameerul Mu'mineen Ali Murtaza, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain also there. All were busy eating. Rasulullah smiling in great happiness said to Hasan and Husain: 'Sons, today is the day on which Allah will destroy your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather, and Allah will accept the curse of your mother (Fatimah). Eat sons, eat I Today is the day that Allah accepts the deeds of your Shiah (partisans), and beloved. Eat sons, eat! Today is the day when the power of your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather will be broken and annihilated in the dust. Eat sons, eat! Today is the day when Fir'on to my Ahle Bait, the one who will oppress and persecute them and who will usurp their rights, will be destroyed."

Huzaifah said: I exclaimed: 'O Rasulullah! Will there be such an evil person in your Ummah, who will perpetrate such villainy?'

Rasulullah replied: 'O Huzaifah!

Among the munafiqs (hypocrites) there will be one idol who will be the leader of the group of munafiqeen. He will carry in his hand the whip of cruelty and injustice; he will prevent people from the Path of truth; he will alter the Qur'an; he will change my Sunnah and my ways; he will oppress my Wasi (Appointee), Ali Bin Abi Talib and he will deprive my daughter, Fatimah of her rights. My daughter will then curse him. Allah Ta'ala will accept her la'nat (curse) and prayers.' Huzaifah then said: 'O Rasulullah! Why do you not supplicate to Allah to destroy this Fir'on and oppressor in your very lifetime?'

Rasulullah replied: 'O Huzaifah! I do not regard it proper to interfere in the decisions of Allah Ta'ala... But, I have requested Allah Ta'ala to grant excellence and superiority to that day when that oppressor and Fir'on is dispatched to Jahannum (e.i. when he is destroyed). That day should be decreed superior to all other days so that honoring of that day becomes a Sunnah for my Shiane Ahle Bait (i.e. partisans of my family). Allah Ta'ala then sent this Wahi (revelation):

'It has already been decreed in My Eternal Knowledge that the usurping Munafiqs will persecute you and your family. They will inflict many hardships on you and your family. O Muhammad! Ali has been awarded your rank because of these (impending) hardships which will be perpetrated on him by the usurper of his rights and the Fir'on of this Ummah. I have commanded the angels of the seven heavens to rejoice and celebrate Eid on the day he (i.e. Hadhrat Umar) is killed - this is for the sake of the partisans and lovers of the Ahle Bait. I have commanded the recording Angels to cease recording the sins of My servants for three days from that day. This is in honor of that day (on which Hadhrat Umar will be murdered). O Muhammad! Three days grace and permission in general to commit sins have been given in your honor and in honor of your appointee (Ali) ... Every year on this day, will I free from Jahannam thousands of your Shiahs.' Huzaifah says: 'After Rasulullah said this, he arose and left the room and went to the house of Umme Salmah. After having heard this talk of Rasulullah I was convinced of Umar's kufr. There remained no doubt in this. Finally, after the demise of Rasulullah, I witnessed the fitnah which he (Umar) created. He exhibited the kufr which was concealed in him. He reneged from Islam and usurped the Imamate and Khilafate. To achieve this end he adopted the most shameless methods. He altered the Qur'an and burnt the holy house of Rasulullah. He pleased the Jews, Christians and the Magians and displeased Fatimah and the entire Ahle Bait, and he conspired to have Ameerul Mu'meen (i.e. Hadhrat Ali) murdered. He made haram what Allah had made halal and legalized what Allah had made unlawful. He slammed the door against the face and stomach of Fatimah Alayhis Salaam. Huzaifah then said:

'Finally Allah Ta'ala accepted the curses of His Holy Nabi and his daughter in regard to this Munafiq (i.e. Hadhrat Umar) and had him killed at the hands, of his killer (Abu Lu'lu' Irani). May there be the Rahmat (Mercy) of Allah on his (Umar's) killer."

(Zadul Ma'ad - Pages 433-436)

salam alaykom

there's no sanad here please post the whole sanad as i haven't got this book"zaad al-ma3ad

does anyone knows where i can find it online

jazakom Allah khairan

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You guys are using your feelings to understand historical events. That's very bad.

Abu Bakr was never thursty for power, he lived abstemiously. As for Umar, if he wouldn't have been select by Abu Bakr to succeed him, I don't think he would snatched the CALIPHAT from the "other" succesor" of Abu Bakr. As for Uthman, he just accepted to follow the path of Abu Bakr and Umar (As a muqallid of those two). Imam Ali (as) refused to follow the path of Abu Bakr, and Umar, because he wanted to leave opened the door of IJTIHAD.

All hadiths of our Ahlul Beyt cursing the 3 and Aisha are fake even if it's sahih.

Which feelings? We're stating the obvious. Historians agree. Go to the closest library and open the first book on Islam that you see and this will become obvious to you too. Abu Bakr and co. were power-thirsty politicians.

Edited by shiabrains

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Well, most historians would agree that, in practice, Abou Bakr and co. taking over the Caliphate instead of our Imams is equivalent to the victory of politics over theology/faith/religion.

I agree with this point of view.

Don't forget that the party of Imam Ali (as) based their claim on qualifications, the designation of Ali by the Prophet, and Ali's blood relation to the Prophet. Also Imam Ali (as) was very young.

As for Abu Bakr, he was older than Ali, he claimed that only a man from the Quraysh could be accepted to rule over the Arabia. And he was choosed by the Prophet to lead the prayers. Abu Bakr was also a closest companion of the Prophet.

Just try to understand the backward mentality of the ARABS at the time of the Prophet.

Even when the Prophet compelled Usama bin Zayd (17 or 18 years old) as the leader of an army upon some Companions, there was a tough discussion between them, and we know what happened. The Prophet got angry.

So if it was not Abu Bakr, do you think seriously that these Arabs would have authorized Imam Ali (as) to rule over the whole Arabia, a young man of 30 years old ?

Imam Ali (as) had to wait 25 years = caliphat of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, so that people came to him after Uthman to gave him alligiance.

Imam Ali (as) at that time was nearly 55 years !

And after the death of the Prophet Abu Bakr was 59 years old !

Just ponder on it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys don't take into consideration the parameters of that time, the backward mentality of the Arab, the rivalry between tribes etc..... There are many parameters.

You just swoop down on what the muslim historians narrated in their books lol :wacko:

They were very bad historians. Trust me.

Edited by bakr_umar

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I agree with this point of view.

Don't forget that the party of Imam Ali (as) based their claim on qualifications, the designation of Ali by the Prophet, and Ali's blood relation to the Prophet. Also Imam Ali (as) was very young.

As for Abu Bakr, he was older than Ali, he claimed that only a man from the Quraysh could be accepted to rule over the Arabia. And he was choosed by the Prophet to lead the prayers. Abu Bakr was also a closest companion of the Prophet.

Just try to understand the backward mentality of the ARABS at the time of the Prophet.

Even when the Prophet compelled Usama bin Zayd (17 or 18 years old) as the leader of an army upon some Companions, there was a tough discussion between them, and we know what happened. The Prophet got angry.

So if it was not Abu Bakr, do you think seriously that these Arabs would have authorized Imam Ali (as) to rule over the whole Arabia, a young man of 30 years old ?

Imam Ali (as) had to wait 25 years = caliphat of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, so that people came to him after Uthman to gave him alligiance.

Imam Ali (as) at that time was nearly 55 years !

And after the death of the Prophet Abu Bakr was 59 years old !

Just ponder on it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys don't take into consideration the parameters of that time, the backward mentality of the Arab, the rivalry between tribes etc..... There are many parameters.

You just swoop down on what the muslim historian narrated in their books lol :wacko:

They were very bad historians. Trust me.

I think history is not your favourite subject. In fact, most muslim historians of the time confirm what you just said, i.e. that tribalism (although known as "'assabiya") remained as an important factor in Arabia (and remains to be today).

HOWEVER, you lack to understand that the main aim of the prophet, by establishing an UMMA OF BELIEVERS, embodied by the example of Madina, was to create a "supratribal" society (as some scholars call it).

You are right to bring this up. But one should not forget that Islam was supposed to replace this kind of traditions. Did it fail in this respect? Some would answer YES. But then again, this would be the problem of the Arabs of the time and not of Islam. Thankfully some of them were aware of the need to follow the Ahlu-el-Bayt.

“I am not rising (against Yazid) as an insolent or an arrogant person, or a mischief-monger or tyrant. I have risen (against Yazid)

as I seek to reform the Ummah (people) of my grandfather. I wish to bid the good and forbid evil.” - Imam Husayn (Peace be upon him)

When Imam Husayn speaks about the reform of the Ummah of his grandfather, he dismisses all the regimes and caliphates that were put in place since - not for political reasons but because they hid the truth and were unjust. He fought for values - values that were neglected under the previous caliphs. If caliphs forget the basics of Islam, I do not see why they wouldn't deserve to be insulted. And if they were examples to be followed, I do not see why Ashura would've happened - and why we exist as Shiites.

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I think history is not your favourite subject.

Why ?

I agree with you on the idea of SUPRATRIBAL SOCIETY.

But one should not forget that Islam was supposed to replace this kind of traditions. Did it fail in this respect? Some would answer YES.

I am also saying YES.

But then again, this would be the problem of the Arabs of the time and not of Islam. Thankfully some of them were aware of the need to follow the Ahlu-el-Bayt.

Don't forget one thing Imam Ali (as) was supported by immigrants like Salman, Abu Tharr etc. And this is also a parameters which implies the racist mentality of those Arabs. The problems with black people and non-arabs.

So..................................................................................................

............................................................No chance for Imam Ali (as).

Edited by bakr_umar

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I have a question, if someone were to take the family business, the means of support for your family, leaving you destitute, would you not curse them for it?

Answer only this one question, and don't try to use your brain please and add more to the question, as this is the only question I have asked.

thank you

Ya Ali

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I have a question, if someone were to take the family business, the means of support for your family, leaving you destitute, would you not curse them for it?

Answer only this one question, and don't try to use your brain please and add more to the question, as this is the only question I have asked.

thank you

Ya Ali

Com'on don't react like a child. We are not talking about BUSINESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I know we are not, but if you would curse someone over the taking of your family business then why would you not curse those responsible for usurping the rights of the Ones (as) that we love even more than our own family, and those who are responsible for the twisting of the words and mandates of Allah in the religion we follow?

Edited by zainab_

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So if they rejected Allah(saw) comand on wilyat of Imam Ali(as) diliberatly, also rejecting Bibi fatima (as) being masoom.

(issue regarding fadak) and many part's of the quran.

so please inlightan me what were they

First the concept of Wilayat as we know (and understand) today came very belatedly.

Second the concept of INFALLIBILITY also came very belatedly. So you can'nt say he rejected Sayyida Fatima (as) because he knew that she was supposedly 'infallible'. The issue regarding Fadak is certainly unjust, because only one person can lie here, and of course it's not Sayyida Fatima (as). Now can we say that Abu Bakr lied or it's another reason ? (because we have only such apocryphal hadiths in which I don't trust 100 % even if it's sahih, even if it's in the book of the Sunnis) I think there is a lack of information in this case 'of FADAK'.

I have already discussed this subject and asked many questions. But unfortunately the answers were not coming. lol

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the seeds of the dates from the garden of fadak will choke the throats of whoever eats them without the permission of syeda Fatima s.a

I am unable to type on mobile if not I have given 100 punishments that would be given to the theives of fadak

Ya Ali madad

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they were oppressors but they didn't hate ahlbeit they were power thirsty

Your argument is that they oppressed ahlulbayt (as) but because they did it out of their thirst for power, they should not be cursed.

I have two questions for you:

1. By oppressing ahlulbayt (as) did they please rasoolallah (sawas) or did they annoy him?

2. You have asked for an authentic hadth even when a clear verse from Quran was presented; Is Quran your primary criterion or hadith? If you believe that Quran is evidence of its own and does not need hadith to support it then its obligatory on you to agree with:

Allah (swt) says in Al-Ahzab:57-

Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó íõÄúÐõæäó Çááøóåó æóÑóÓõæáóåõ áóÚóäóåõãõ Çááøóåõ Ýöí ÇáÏøõäúíóÇ æóÇáúÂÎöÑóÉö æóÃóÚóÏøó áóåõãú ÚóÐóÇÈðÇ ãøõåöíäðÇ (33:57)

Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.

And in the light of your own statements curse them. But, guess what? Since I am a shia of adil Imam i'll do adl with you, i'll give you a way out:

Your argument of seeking an authentic hadith in presence of a verse is valid when you believe that Quran cannot be understood without hadith but the moment you say so, I can prove that Ali (as) is rabb through authentic ahadith.

Tawalla (Ali rabb) or tabarra (lanat on shekhain) - The choice is yours :angel:

omar said when asked why they took khilafat away from ali(as) he answered: we did this not out of hatred for ali but because we thought he was young and that

quraish will never approve of him

sayed alkhoei also said that the shaikhain didnt hate ali (as)

^ is now irrelevant.

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Can you post the authentic hadith? The ones sirat posted are not authentic.

w/s

didn't we conlude as the ahadithbeing authentic. The first one has 29 chains through different narrators and the narrators of the second one are thiqah according to kulayni, sadooq, mufeed, al khoie etc they all have relied on the narrations from them.

Ya Ali madad

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didn't we conlude as the ahadithbeing authentic. The first one has 29 chains through different narrators

Ya Ali madad

Numbers doesn't matters. The narrators should be reliable and not weak/ghulats like those two chains you quoted.

and the narrators of the second one are thiqah according to kulayni, sadooq, mufeed, al khoie etc they all have relied on the narrations from them.

Stop twisting and read that thread again esp. the posts of Bro. Reformer.

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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Numbers doesn't matters. The narrators should be reliable and not weak/ghulats like those two chains you quoted.

Stop twisting and read that thread again esp. the posts of Bro. Reformer.

w/s

brother jondab salam alaykom

wallah brother i feel sorry for these people who base their whole aqeedat on weak hadiths

may Allah guide them

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brother jondab salam alaykom

wallah brother i feel sorry for these people who base their whole aqeedat on weak hadiths

may Allah guide them

You should feel sorry for Ayatollah Mehdi Puya Yazdi as well, he writes in his commentry on verse 107 of Al-Anbiyaa;

æóãóÇ ÃóÑúÓóáúäóÇßó ÅöáøóÇ ÑóÍúãóÉð áøöáúÚóÇáóãöíäó {107}

[shakir 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 21:107]

It is stated in the Quran that prophets of Allah were sent to every people in every age, then as a culmination the Holy Prophet was sent to mankind as a mercy unto the worlds with a universal message. In verse 81 of Ali Imran all the prophets of Allah have accepted the Holy Prophet as their supreme leader, therefore he is the only leader their followers should also obey and follow. Keeping this fact in view the Holy Prophet has been introduced to all human beings till eternity as the mercy unto the worlds to whom the final book of Allah, the Quran, was revealed and who was entrusted with the perfected and completed religion of Allah to be the law and guidance for all mankind for ever (see commentary of Ma-idah: 5 and 67 The word alamin (the worlds) encompasses all that has been created by Allah and He has not created the universe out of fun (verse 16 of this surah).

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

By presenting the Holy Prophet as the mercy unto the worlds it has been clearly asserted that he is the first and the foremost in the order of creation who was selected to convey the mercy of Allah to every created being. The entire existence of the Holy Prophet is the first and the continuous manifestation of the rububiyat of the rabbul alamin. The whole process of creation implies the circular process of descension and ascension of the person of the Holy Prophet for the purpose of universal blessings.

I feel sorry for those who lack the aql to be able to understand the concept of wilayah. I am gonna make a humble attempt to elucidate through logic the aqidah of wilayah which Ayatullah Mehdi Puya Yazdi talks about in his commentry.

The words, Wala, Walayat, Wilayat, Waly, Mawla, Awlaand the like have been derived from the same root, viz. Waly. The various forms of this root-word and its derivatives are the most oft-recurring words in the Holy Qur'an. It is said that they have been used 124 times in the form of a noun and 112 times in the form of a verb.

The original meaning of this root-word as mentioned by Raghib in his lexicon "Mufradatul Qur'an" is one thing taking place by the side of another in such a way that there is no distance between them i.e. if two things are placed side by side in such a manner that there is no other thing between them the root-word 'Waly' is used. For example, if some persons are sitting side by side with one another and we wish to mention the manner and order in which they have taken their seats we say that Zayd is the head of the assembly and i.e. Amr is sitting by Zayd without there being any distance between them and similarly Bakr is sitting by Amr without there being any distance between them.

If you pour hot water in a cup, the cup becomes hot as well because of its walayat to hot water and if you hold the cup for a while, your hand manifests the heat as well. The cup without water is nothing. This is why Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) said "We are dead compared to Allah (swt)".

When I say Ali (as) is rabb, I mean Allah's rububiyat manifests itself from him through wilayah and in effect this is testimony of Allah's rububiyat. It's undoubtedly shirk if you say Allah is rabb in his own capacity and Ali is rabb in his own capacity and that's NOT our belief. Remember the hand holding the cup? Yes, if you establish a relationship of wilayah with Aliun waliullah, even you can manifest effect of Allah's (swt) attributes through the grace of his waly.

Just as Allah's power of creation manifests from Nabi Isa (as) in 5:110 -

ÅöÐú ÞóÇáó Çááøåõ íóÇ ÚöíÓì ÇÈúäó ãóÑúíóãó ÇÐúßõÑú äöÚúãóÊöí Úóáóíúßó æóÚóáóì æóÇáöÏóÊößó ÅöÐú ÃóíøóÏÊøõßó ÈöÑõæÍö ÇáúÞõÏõÓö Êõßóáøöãõ ÇáäøóÇÓó Ýöí ÇáúãóåúÏö æóßóåúáÇð æóÅöÐú ÚóáøóãúÊõßó ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó æóÇáúÍößúãóÉó æóÇáÊøóæúÑóÇÉó æóÇáÅöäÌöíáó æóÅöÐú ÊóÎúáõÞõ ãöäó ÇáØøöíäö ßóåóíúÆóÉö ÇáØøóíúÑö ÈöÅöÐúäöí ÝóÊóäÝõÎõ ÝöíåóÇ ÝóÊóßõæäõ ØóíúÑðÇ ÈöÅöÐúäöí æóÊõÈúÑöìÁõ ÇáÃóßúãóåó æóÇáÃóÈúÑóÕó ÈöÅöÐúäöí æóÅöÐú ÊõÎúÑöÌõ ÇáúãóæÊóì ÈöÅöÐúäöí æóÅöÐú ßóÝóÝúÊõ Èóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó Úóäßó ÅöÐú ÌöÆúÊóåõãú ÈöÇáúÈóíøöäóÇÊö ÝóÞóÇáó ÇáøóÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇú ãöäúåõãú Åöäú åóÜÐóÇ ÅöáÇøó ÓöÍúÑñ ãøõÈöíäñ (

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama othkur niAAmatee AAalayka waAAala walidatika ith ayyadtuka biroohi alqudusi tukallimu alnnasa fee almahdi wakahlan waith AAallamtuka alkitaba waalhikmata waalttawrata waalinjeela waith takhluqu mina altteeni kahayati alttayri biithnee fatanfukhu feeha fatakoonu tayran biithnee watubrio alakmaha waalabrasa biithnee waith tukhriju almawta biithnee waith kafaftu banee israeela AAanka ith jitahum bialbayyinati faqala allatheena kafaroo minhum in hatha illa sihrun mubeenun

Lo! God will say: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember the blessings which I bestowed upon thee and thy mother-how I strengthened thee with holy inspiration, [132] so that thou couldst speak unto men in thy cradle, and as a grown man; and how I imparted unto thee revelation and wisdom, including the Torah and the Gospel; and how by My leave thou didst create out of clay, as it were, the shape of [thy followers'] destiny, and then didst breathe into it, so that it might become, by My leave, [their] destiny ; and how thou didst heal the blind and the leper by My leave, and how thou didst raise the dead by My leave; and how I prevented the children of Israel from harming thee when thou camest unto them with all evidence of the truth, and [when] those of them who were bent on denying the truth were saying, `This is clearly nothing but deception!"'

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You should feel sorry for Ayatollah Mehdi Puya Yazdi as well, he writes in his commentry on verse 107 of Al-Anbiyaa;

æóãóÇ ÃóÑúÓóáúäóÇßó ÅöáøóÇ ÑóÍúãóÉð áøöáúÚóÇáóãöíäó {107}

[shakir 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 21:107]

It is stated in the Quran that prophets of Allah were sent to every people in every age, then as a culmination the Holy Prophet was sent to mankind as a mercy unto the worlds with a universal message. In verse 81 of Ali Imran all the prophets of Allah have accepted the Holy Prophet as their supreme leader, therefore he is the only leader their followers should also obey and follow. Keeping this fact in view the Holy Prophet has been introduced to all human beings till eternity as the mercy unto the worlds to whom the final book of Allah, the Quran, was revealed and who was entrusted with the perfected and completed religion of Allah to be the law and guidance for all mankind for ever (see commentary of Ma-idah: 5 and 67 The word alamin (the worlds) encompasses all that has been created by Allah and He has not created the universe out of fun (verse 16 of this surah).

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

By presenting the Holy Prophet as the mercy unto the worlds it has been clearly asserted that he is the first and the foremost in the order of creation who was selected to convey the mercy of Allah to every created being. The entire existence of the Holy Prophet is the first and the continuous manifestation of the rububiyat of the rabbul alamin. The whole process of creation implies the circular process of descension and ascension of the person of the Holy Prophet for the purpose of universal blessings.

I feel sorry for those who lack the aql to be able to understand the concept of wilayah. I am gonna make a humble attempt to elucidate through logic the aqidah of wilayah which Ayatullah Mehdi Puya Yazdi talks about in his commentry.

The words, Wala, Walayat, Wilayat, Waly, Mawla, Awlaand the like have been derived from the same root, viz. Waly. The various forms of this root-word and its derivatives are the most oft-recurring words in the Holy Qur'an. It is said that they have been used 124 times in the form of a noun and 112 times in the form of a verb.

The original meaning of this root-word as mentioned by Raghib in his lexicon "Mufradatul Qur'an" is one thing taking place by the side of another in such a way that there is no distance between them i.e. if two things are placed side by side in such a manner that there is no other thing between them the root-word 'Waly' is used. For example, if some persons are sitting side by side with one another and we wish to mention the manner and order in which they have taken their seats we say that Zayd is the head of the assembly and i.e. Amr is sitting by Zayd without there being any distance between them and similarly Bakr is sitting by Amr without there being any distance between them.

If you pour hot water in a cup, the cup becomes hot as well because of its walayat to hot water and if you hold the cup for a while, your hand manifests the heat as well. The cup without water is nothing. This is why Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) said "We are dead compared to Allah (swt)".

When I say Ali (as) is rabb, I mean Allah's rububiyat manifests itself from him through wilayah and in effect this is testimony of Allah's rububiyat. It's undoubtedly shirk if you say Allah is rabb in his own capacity and Ali is rabb in his own capacity and that's NOT our belief. Remember the hand holding the cup? Yes, if you establish a relationship of wilayah with Aliun waliullah, even you can manifest effect of Allah's (swt) attributes through the grace of his waly.

Just as Allah's power of creation manifests from Nabi Isa (as) in 5:110 -

ÅöÐú ÞóÇáó Çááøåõ íóÇ ÚöíÓì ÇÈúäó ãóÑúíóãó ÇÐúßõÑú äöÚúãóÊöí Úóáóíúßó æóÚóáóì æóÇáöÏóÊößó ÅöÐú ÃóíøóÏÊøõßó ÈöÑõæÍö ÇáúÞõÏõÓö Êõßóáøöãõ ÇáäøóÇÓó Ýöí ÇáúãóåúÏö æóßóåúáÇð æóÅöÐú ÚóáøóãúÊõßó ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó æóÇáúÍößúãóÉó æóÇáÊøóæúÑóÇÉó æóÇáÅöäÌöíáó æóÅöÐú ÊóÎúáõÞõ ãöäó ÇáØøöíäö ßóåóíúÆóÉö ÇáØøóíúÑö ÈöÅöÐúäöí ÝóÊóäÝõÎõ ÝöíåóÇ ÝóÊóßõæäõ ØóíúÑðÇ ÈöÅöÐúäöí æóÊõÈúÑöìÁõ ÇáÃóßúãóåó æóÇáÃóÈúÑóÕó ÈöÅöÐúäöí æóÅöÐú ÊõÎúÑöÌõ ÇáúãóæÊóì ÈöÅöÐúäöí æóÅöÐú ßóÝóÝúÊõ Èóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó Úóäßó ÅöÐú ÌöÆúÊóåõãú ÈöÇáúÈóíøöäóÇÊö ÝóÞóÇáó ÇáøóÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇú ãöäúåõãú Åöäú åóÜÐóÇ ÅöáÇøó ÓöÍúÑñ ãøõÈöíäñ (

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama othkur niAAmatee AAalayka waAAala walidatika ith ayyadtuka biroohi alqudusi tukallimu alnnasa fee almahdi wakahlan waith AAallamtuka alkitaba waalhikmata waalttawrata waalinjeela waith takhluqu mina altteeni kahayati alttayri biithnee fatanfukhu feeha fatakoonu tayran biithnee watubrio alakmaha waalabrasa biithnee waith tukhriju almawta biithnee waith kafaftu banee israeela AAanka ith jitahum bialbayyinati faqala allatheena kafaroo minhum in hatha illa sihrun mubeenun

Lo! God will say: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember the blessings which I bestowed upon thee and thy mother-how I strengthened thee with holy inspiration, [132] so that thou couldst speak unto men in thy cradle, and as a grown man; and how I imparted unto thee revelation and wisdom, including the Torah and the Gospel; and how by My leave thou didst create out of clay, as it were, the shape of [thy followers'] destiny, and then didst breathe into it, so that it might become, by My leave, [their] destiny ; and how thou didst heal the blind and the leper by My leave, and how thou didst raise the dead by My leave; and how I prevented the children of Israel from harming thee when thou camest unto them with all evidence of the truth, and [when] those of them who were bent on denying the truth were saying, `This is clearly nothing but deception!"'

what's the difference between you and the christians who say isa is rabb also

they dont consider him rabb in his own right but part of rububyyah

they believe in godfather(Allah ) and the rububyyah of isa also

also i find it strange that you say it openly !! doesn't your skin cringe when you utter such words

here's what the imam almahdi say about people like you

æóÃóäóÇ æóÌóãöíÚõ ÂÈóÇÆöí ãöäó ÇáúÃóæøóáöíäó ÂÏóãõ æóäõæÍñ æóÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãõ æóãõæÓóì æóÛóíúÑõåõãú ãöäó ÇáäøóÈöíøöíäó æóãöäó ÇáúÂÎöÑöíäó¡ ãõÍóãøóÏñ ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö æóÚóáöíøõ Èúäõ ÃóÈöí ØóÇáöÈò æóÇáúÍóÓóäõ æóÇáúÍõÓóíúäõ æóÛóíúÑõåõãú ãöãøóäú ãóÖóì ãöäó ÇáúÃóÆöãøóÉö ÕóáóæóÇÊõ Çááøóåö Úóáóíúåöãú ÃóÌúãóÚöíäó Åöáóì ãóÈúáóÛö ÃóíøóÇãöí æóãõäúÊóåóì ÚóÕúÑöí ÚóÈöíÏõ Çááøóåö ÚóÒøó æóÌóáøó íóÞõæáõ Çááøóåõ ÚóÒøó æóÌóáøó {æóãóäú ÃóÚúÑóÖó Úóäú ÐößúÑöí ÝóÅöäøó áóåõ ãóÚöíÔóÉð ÖóäúßÇð æóäóÍúÔõÑõåõ íóæúãó ÇáúÞöíÇãóÉö ÃóÚúãìþ ÞÇáó ÑóÈøö áöãó ÍóÔóÑúÊóäöí ÃóÚúãìþ æóÞóÏú ßõäúÊõ ÈóÕöíÑÇð ÞÇáó ßóÐáößó ÃóÊóÊúßó ÂíÇÊõäÇ ÝóäóÓöíÊóåÇ æóßóÐáößó Çáúíóæúãó ÊõäúÓìþ}

íóÇ ãõÍóãøóÏó Èúäó Úóáöíøò ÞóÏú ÂÐóÇäóÇ ÌõåóáóÇÁõ ÇáÔøöíÚóÉö æóÍõãóÞóÇÄõåõãú æóãóäú Ïöíäõåõ ÌóäóÇÍõ ÇáúÈóÚõæÖóÉö ÃóÑúÌóÍõ ãöäúåõ.

æóÃõÔúåöÏõ Çááøóåó ÇáøóÐöí áóÇ Åöáóåó ÅöáøóÇ åõæó æóßóÝóì Èöåö ÔóåöíÏÇð æóãõÍóãøóÏÇð ÑóÓõæáóåõ æóãóáóÇÆößóÊóåõ æóÃóäúÈöíóÇÁóåõ æóÃóæúáöíóÇÁóåõ æóÃõÔúåöÏõßó æóÃõÔúåöÏõ ßõáøó ãóäú ÓóãöÚó ßöÊóÇÈöí åóÐóÇ Ãóäøöí ÈóÑöíþÁñ Åöáóì Çááøóåö æóÅöáóì ÑóÓõæáöåö ãöãøóäú íóÞõæáõ ÅöäøóÇ äóÚúáóãõ ÇáúÛóíúÈó Ãóæú äõÔóÇÑößõ Çááøóåó Ýöí ãõáúßöåö Ãóæú íõÍöáøõäóÇ ãóÍóáøðÇ Óöæóì ÇáúãóÍóáøö ÇáøóÐöí äóÕóÈóåõ Çááøóåõ áóäóÇ æóÎóáóÞóäóÇ áóåõ Ãóæú íóÊóÚóÏøóì ÈöäóÇ ÚóãøóÇ ÞóÏú ÝóÓøóÑúÊõåõ áóßó æóÈóíøóäúÊõåõ Ýöí ÕóÏúÑö ßöÊóÇÈöí

æóÃõÔúåöÏõßõãú Ãóäøó ßõáøó ãóäú äóÊóÈóÑøóÃõ ãöäúåõ ÝóÅöäøó Çááøóåó íóÈúÑóÃõ ãöäúåõ æóãóáóÇÆößóÊóåõ æóÑõÓõáóåõ æóÃóæúáöíóÇÁóåõ.

æóÌóÚóáúÊõ åóÐóÇ ÇáÊøóæúÞöíÚó ÇáøóÐöí Ýöí åóÐóÇ ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö ÃóãóÇäóÉð Ýöí ÚõäõÞößó æóÚõäõÞö ãóäú ÓóãöÚóåõ Ãóäú áóÇ íóßúÊõãóåõ ãöäú ÃóÍóÏò ãöäú ãóæóÇáöíøó æóÔöíÚóÊöí ÍóÊøóì íóÙúåóÑó Úóáóì åóÐóÇ ÇáÊøóæúÞöíÚö Çáúßõáøõ ãöäó ÇáúãóæóÇáöí¡ áóÚóáøó Çááøóåó ÚóÒøó æóÌóáøó íóÊóáóÇÝóÇåõãú ÝóíóÑúÌöÚõæäó Åöáóì Ïöíäö Çááøóåö ÇáúÍóÞøö æóíóäúÊóåõæäóþ[8] ÚóãøóÇ áóÇ íóÚúáóãõæäó ãõäúÊóåóì ÃóãúÑöåö¡ æóáóÇ íóÈúáõÛõ ãõäúÊóåóÇåõº Ýóßõáøõ ãóäú þÝóåöãó ßöÊóÇÈöí æóáóãú íóÑúÌöÚú Åöáóì ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÃóãóÑúÊõåõ æóäóåóíúÊõåõ ÝóáóÞóÏú ÍóáøóÊú Úóáóíúåö ÇááøóÚúäóÉõ ãöäó Çááøóåö æóãöãøóäú ÐóßóÑúÊõ ãöäú ÚöÈóÇÏöåö ÇáÕøóÇáöÍöíäó

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Actually Christians believe that the Prophet Jesus (as) is God, One with God and the Creator of the heavens and earth and all that is between, and all of the creatures, angels and human. They believe the Prophet Jesus (as) had no Creator.

Quite distinctly, there is a huge difference between what the Christians say and what people in this thread are saying! I suggest you actually read what is being said here.

Edited by zainab_

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what's the difference between you and the christians who say isa is rabb also

they dont consider him rabb in his own right but part of rububyyah

they believe in godfather(Allah ) and the rububyyah of isa also

also i find it strange that you say it openly !! doesn't your skin cringe when you utter such words

here's what the imam almahdi say about people like you

æóÃóäóÇ æóÌóãöíÚõ ÂÈóÇÆöí ãöäó ÇáúÃóæøóáöíäó ÂÏóãõ æóäõæÍñ æóÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãõ æóãõæÓóì æóÛóíúÑõåõãú ãöäó ÇáäøóÈöíøöíäó æóãöäó ÇáúÂÎöÑöíäó¡ ãõÍóãøóÏñ ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö æóÚóáöíøõ Èúäõ ÃóÈöí ØóÇáöÈò æóÇáúÍóÓóäõ æóÇáúÍõÓóíúäõ æóÛóíúÑõåõãú ãöãøóäú ãóÖóì ãöäó ÇáúÃóÆöãøóÉö ÕóáóæóÇÊõ Çááøóåö Úóáóíúåöãú ÃóÌúãóÚöíäó Åöáóì ãóÈúáóÛö ÃóíøóÇãöí æóãõäúÊóåóì ÚóÕúÑöí ÚóÈöíÏõ Çááøóåö ÚóÒøó æóÌóáøó íóÞõæáõ Çááøóåõ ÚóÒøó æóÌóáøó {æóãóäú ÃóÚúÑóÖó Úóäú ÐößúÑöí ÝóÅöäøó áóåõ ãóÚöíÔóÉð ÖóäúßÇð æóäóÍúÔõÑõåõ íóæúãó ÇáúÞöíÇãóÉö ÃóÚúãìþ ÞÇáó ÑóÈøö áöãó ÍóÔóÑúÊóäöí ÃóÚúãìþ æóÞóÏú ßõäúÊõ ÈóÕöíÑÇð ÞÇáó ßóÐáößó ÃóÊóÊúßó ÂíÇÊõäÇ ÝóäóÓöíÊóåÇ æóßóÐáößó Çáúíóæúãó ÊõäúÓìþ}

íóÇ ãõÍóãøóÏó Èúäó Úóáöíøò ÞóÏú ÂÐóÇäóÇ ÌõåóáóÇÁõ ÇáÔøöíÚóÉö æóÍõãóÞóÇÄõåõãú æóãóäú Ïöíäõåõ ÌóäóÇÍõ ÇáúÈóÚõæÖóÉö ÃóÑúÌóÍõ ãöäúåõ.

æóÃõÔúåöÏõ Çááøóåó ÇáøóÐöí áóÇ Åöáóåó ÅöáøóÇ åõæó æóßóÝóì Èöåö ÔóåöíÏÇð æóãõÍóãøóÏÇð ÑóÓõæáóåõ æóãóáóÇÆößóÊóåõ æóÃóäúÈöíóÇÁóåõ æóÃóæúáöíóÇÁóåõ æóÃõÔúåöÏõßó æóÃõÔúåöÏõ ßõáøó ãóäú ÓóãöÚó ßöÊóÇÈöí åóÐóÇ Ãóäøöí ÈóÑöíþÁñ Åöáóì Çááøóåö æóÅöáóì ÑóÓõæáöåö ãöãøóäú íóÞõæáõ ÅöäøóÇ äóÚúáóãõ ÇáúÛóíúÈó Ãóæú äõÔóÇÑößõ Çááøóåó Ýöí ãõáúßöåö Ãóæú íõÍöáøõäóÇ ãóÍóáøðÇ Óöæóì ÇáúãóÍóáøö ÇáøóÐöí äóÕóÈóåõ Çááøóåõ áóäóÇ æóÎóáóÞóäóÇ áóåõ Ãóæú íóÊóÚóÏøóì ÈöäóÇ ÚóãøóÇ ÞóÏú ÝóÓøóÑúÊõåõ áóßó æóÈóíøóäúÊõåõ Ýöí ÕóÏúÑö ßöÊóÇÈöí

æóÃõÔúåöÏõßõãú Ãóäøó ßõáøó ãóäú äóÊóÈóÑøóÃõ ãöäúåõ ÝóÅöäøó Çááøóåó íóÈúÑóÃõ ãöäúåõ æóãóáóÇÆößóÊóåõ æóÑõÓõáóåõ æóÃóæúáöíóÇÁóåõ.

æóÌóÚóáúÊõ åóÐóÇ ÇáÊøóæúÞöíÚó ÇáøóÐöí Ýöí åóÐóÇ ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö ÃóãóÇäóÉð Ýöí ÚõäõÞößó æóÚõäõÞö ãóäú ÓóãöÚóåõ Ãóäú áóÇ íóßúÊõãóåõ ãöäú ÃóÍóÏò ãöäú ãóæóÇáöíøó æóÔöíÚóÊöí ÍóÊøóì íóÙúåóÑó Úóáóì åóÐóÇ ÇáÊøóæúÞöíÚö Çáúßõáøõ ãöäó ÇáúãóæóÇáöí¡ áóÚóáøó Çááøóåó ÚóÒøó æóÌóáøó íóÊóáóÇÝóÇåõãú ÝóíóÑúÌöÚõæäó Åöáóì Ïöíäö Çááøóåö ÇáúÍóÞøö æóíóäúÊóåõæäóþ[8] ÚóãøóÇ áóÇ íóÚúáóãõæäó ãõäúÊóåóì ÃóãúÑöåö¡ æóáóÇ íóÈúáõÛõ ãõäúÊóåóÇåõº Ýóßõáøõ ãóäú þÝóåöãó ßöÊóÇÈöí æóáóãú íóÑúÌöÚú Åöáóì ãóÇ ÞóÏú ÃóãóÑúÊõåõ æóäóåóíúÊõåõ ÝóáóÞóÏú ÍóáøóÊú Úóáóíúåö ÇááøóÚúäóÉõ ãöäó Çááøóåö æóãöãøóäú ÐóßóÑúÊõ ãöäú ÚöÈóÇÏöåö ÇáÕøóÇáöÍöíäó

Are we denying that Imams (as) are sevents of Allah?

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and I'm curious what part of "Islam is a religion that covers ALL aspects of life, including politics, and heretofore successorship to the prophets (as) was never simply a political position", that Bakr disagreed with??? what made successorship to Muhammad (pbuh) simply a political position?

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