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snafial

A discussion about Al-Mahdi.

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(bismillah)

Assalam Alaimkom,

I am a new member to the forum and I am a Sunni. I did not browse the forum long enough to know your attitude toward “inter-mathhab” discussion but I thought I should give this topic a shot. We Sunnis believe in Al-Mahdi , however his name and characteristics differ from your perspective. We believe that he has the same name of Prophet Mohammed – Peace be Upon Him – and that he will be born as a regular human being. However, we also believe that he will be the leader of Muslims in the time of the Dajjal and that he will be in the two cities that the Dajjal will not be able to enter, Mecca and Madina. There are many other points of difference that I hope will rise in the discussion. To start up the discussion, can you give me your opinion on the difference that I mentioned or on any other point you prefer?

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Discussions Concerning al-Mahdi : http://www.al-islam.org/discussions_mahdi

Great Link -jazakallah

(bismillah)

Assalam Alaimkom,

I am a new member to the forum and I am a Sunni. I did not browse the forum long enough to know your attitude toward “inter-mathhab” discussion but I thought I should give this topic a shot. We Sunnis believe in Al-Mahdi , however his name and characteristics differ from your perspective. We believe that he has the same name of Prophet Mohammed – Peace be Upon Him – and that he will be born as a regular human being. However, we also believe that he will be the leader of Muslims in the time of the Dajjal and that he will be in the two cities that the Dajjal will not be able to enter, Mecca and Madina. There are many other points of difference that I hope will rise in the discussion. To start up the discussion, can you give me your opinion on the difference that I mentioned or on any other point you prefer?

W'salam

brother here is one more believe from your perspective tht is The Mehdi(a) will be from lady Fatima(a)'s faimly

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Great Link -jazakallah

W'salam

brother here is one more believe from your perspective tht is The Mehdi(a) will be from lady Fatima(a)'s faimly

Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, I think I can be even more specific. We know that Al-Mahdi will be the descendent of Al-Hasan – (ra) - . I have not got through the book yet, hopefully I will then I’m sure I’d have some questions to ask.

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Back to the topic. I've reviewed two of the links provided but Splzo's link won't work. I found some points that are hard to understand and I think we can bring the Sunnis and Shias to a better ground if these points are better clarified:

1) I found no Sahih narration that Al-Mahdi was born. So to make such a strong statement of a person living more than a thousand years without a Sahih narration would be hard to digest. If anyone has such a narration, please provide it.

2) Since Al-Mahdi is in “ghaibah” now, how do you define his role in the current time? Does he have an effect on the Muslims, and if so, what is that effect?

Edited by snafial

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I've reviewed two of the links provided but Splzo's link won't work.

It's working for me. I wonder why it isn't for you.

1)I found no Sahih narration that Al-Mahdi was born. So to make such a strong statement of a person living more than a thousand years without a Sahih narration would be hard to digest. If anyone has such a narration, please provide it.

http://www.aimislam.com/forums/index.php?s...ost&p=39554

2) Since Al-Mahdi is in “ghaibah” now, how do you define his role in the current time? Does he have an effect on the Muslims, and if so, what is that effect?

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...t&p=1696705

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Snafial, you should understand that you cannot find very much in any "Sahih" book because this concept of Mahdi is Shiite,

Mahdism is a Shiite belief of Caliphate which says that the decendant of the Prophet will be a final caliph.

Sunnism, regardless of whether you have these Hadiths or not reject this form of "sainthood", and say that anyone with a correct "Taghwa" can become Caliph. That is how many dictatorial and tyrannical regimes have emerged etc.

With this said, ironically many Arabs have the ancient custom of only accepting leaders today that claim to have a lineage to the Prophet, and reject anyone that is not a decendant.

Take a look at this video to have an insight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4iv08JOwCk

Edited by Rubaiyat

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Snafial, you should understand that you cannot find very much in any "Sahih" book because this concept of Mahdi is Shiite,

Please stop spreading disinformation especially if you can't back up from credible sources. You are unwinding all the efforts of our scholars who have spent their lives trying to remove this misconception.

If your claim is true that it is purely a Shi'ite concept, then Ayatullah Lutfullah Safi and Ayatullah Sadr wouldn't have written comprehensive books bringing evidence from the Sunni books to prove this concept.

. .and to enlighten you, there's a whole chapter in Sunan Abi Dawud on Mahdi:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...ud/036.sat.html

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SpIzo, you don't seem very informed on website copy and paste links and their contents,

You are asking for reference, preferably websites which you fondly quote about basic concepts.

For one, it is nice you quote one or two scholars whom don't necessarily agree with you. When we say purely Shiite then we say it is a concept that was taken from Shiism and used in Sunnism. This was largely done under Umayid and most notably Abbasid courts once they were in power and the Shiite house of theology under Jafar sadeq was established.

Your website copy and pasting comes from a Persian (and by the way, not entirely correct) historian, Abo Davud. He lived from Mamoon arguably until the Caliph Motazed.

By that time, the Shiite theology of Jafar Sadeq had already penetrated Hanafist and Malikist thinking

Why is it relevant that Abu Davud was a persian? Because Persians have ever since the conquest of Islam been favorable to AhlolBeit in particular especially if they lived during Abbasid and Ummayid eras. As for other Sunnite scholars, they were largely influenced through Hanifa, who himself was half persian. It is entirely rational for persian scholars such as Hanifa and Abu Davud to integrate these hadiths, in relation to the pan-arab orthodoxy of Sunnism.

Will we find Sunnite hadiths regarding 12 Caliphs, Ahlulbeit etc in Sunnism? ofcourse we will, but that doesn't mean it is solely through their own ideological beliefs, it has had a large influence, mainly Iranian that paved the way for their favorable view of AhlulBait etc. today. Not through the curses from the Arab Damascus central mosque and later, throughout the Muslim world.

Edited by Rubaiyat

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Rubaiyat, I don't know what nonsense you are talking about and how it is even relevant to the thread and your claim that I'm quoting one or two scholars just exposes your ignorance on this subject. I can't really be bothered arguing with you but just to show you what I replied to in the context of your post:

You said:

  • Snafial, you should understand that you cannot find very much in any "Sahih" book because this concept of Mahdi is Shiite,

Sunan Abi Dawud is one of the Sahih books.

I don't care whether Abi Dawud was a Persian or an Arab, but for you to say that there isn't much about Imam Mahdi (atf) in their books when there's a whole chapter in it, is very wrong and misinformation.

I know you know more than the scholars who have dedicated their lives to this subject. .but it wouldn't kill you if you learn a thing or a two on Mahdaviyat - not only from Shi'ite sources, but Sunni as well as non-Muslim sources.

Edited by SpIzo

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Snafial, you should understand that you cannot find very much in any "Sahih" book because this concept of Mahdi is Shiite,

Even the most anti Shia branch of Sunnism viz Wahabis also believe in Mahdi. Mahdism is very much a Muslim concept rather than Shiite..

that said Sunnis dont believe in Ghaibah though...

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SpIzo, It seems i am writing entire explanations justifying what i mean rather than discussing anything in its content to someone who clearly does not understand English or perhaps, does not want to understand what i am saying because he is hardheaded and believes he is right and the rest is wrong.

Your website has two quotes about the Mahdi, that's not very much. You seem more obsessed with quantity than the acqual quality and reasoning behind its inclusion

I think i was rather clear when i say that Sunnite collections simply do not have the amount of narrations Shiites have about the Mahdi largely because the ideology of Mehdism is a Shiite concept.

Perhaps this is an easier question: How many Sunnite clerics or political/religious leaders have accepted your beliefs about the Mahdi and the 12 Successors of Quraysh before the Theological school of Jafar Sadegh?

Perhaps you can show us some quotes.

In addition, i am writing some of the most basic things i have learned in my childhood only having to quote them directly because you are too lazy to read about a person called Abu Davud of Mehdism when i as an Iranian am confronted with it my entire life. I am not saying your scholars are wrong or right, by all means, i believe they contradict you, i am saying You happen to make the absurd statements

Abu Dawud does not have the authority that other Sunnite collections have, and many of the collections override Abu Davud and his narrations to the extent that it is irrelevant or taken for granted.

It is incredibly important you know who and what Abu Davud is before you quote him, which you obviously did not and then ignorantly claim that it is not relevant who he was or where he came from.

Please write something useful about the contents of my statements rather than playing grammar games and flip flopping with them. As for your ironic transliteration of the Iranian "Mahdaviyat" ..and that I as an Iranian should learn about it, i believe you need it more than i do.

Edited by Rubaiyat

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Even the most anti Shia branch of Sunnism viz Wahabis also believe in Mahdi. Mahdism is very much a Muslim concept rather than Shiite..

that said Sunnis dont believe in Ghaibah though...

Dear Abbas, you might know that With regards to Sunnism i have already replied

When speaking of anti-Shiite elements, that of Saodi Arabia, you might know that Wahabism derives their theories from mainly three leaders of history

Ibn taymiye

Ibn Abdol Vahab

Hanbal

Hanbal being the source and Taymiye, Vahab being the reformists

Looking at the history and ideological background of Hanbal it does not differ generally with regards to what i have said about Hanifa, he actually derived much of his knowledge from Hanifa

Edited by Rubaiyat

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The concept of a Saviour is present in every religion, not just Islam. Here's a good article on it:

Mahdi in Other Religions and Nations

Brother Ya Aba had also started a thread on it:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=91908&hl=

But it is only Shi'ism which explains this concept in detail.

I think i was rather clear when i say that Sunnite collections simply do not have the amount of narrations Shiites have about the Mahdi largely because the ideology of Mehdism is a Shiite concept.

Which is incorrect [for the bold part]. I agree with the former part of your post, that the Sunnis don't have a large repository of traditions on this subject as much as we do but it isn't because it is a Shi'ite concept. However, even those collections of traditions which they have on Imam Mahdi (atf) is sufficient to prove this concept.

Have you read Muntakhab al-Athar? It contains traditions from primarily Sunni sources. .and is considered one of the best scholarly works on Imam Mahdi (atf).

Perhaps this is an easier question: How many Sunnite clerics or political/religious leaders have accepted your beliefs about the Mahdi and the 12 Successors of Quraysh before the Theological school of Jafar Sadegh?

That doesn't change facts, does it? The point is, most of the narrations lead to the Holy Prophet (s). .who did inform his companions about the 12 Successors as well as Imam al-Mahdi (atf). This is documented in Sunni books too. Because they usurped the Caliphate and did not believe in this, doesn't mean there aren't any recorded narrations in Sunni books. This argument is similar to proving the Caliphate of Imam Ali (a).

If you are familiar with history of the rule of the Ummayads [or even of Abu Bakr and Umar's rule], recording of narrations of the Holy Prophet (s) was prohibited, while Imam Ali (a) on the other hand, encouraged his companions to record each and every narration and preserve it.

Abu Dawud does not have the authority that other Sunnite collections have, and many of the collections override Abu Davud and his narrations to the extent that it is irrelevant or taken for granted.

His book is considered one of the authoritative works in Sunnism. .and is also included amongst the six authentic books - ie Sihah Sitta. So your point isn't valid.

It is incredibly important you know who and what Abu Davud is before you quote him, which you obviously did not and then ignorantly claim that it is not relevant who he was or where he came from.

For my knowledge, it may be important, but the crux of the argument here is that Sunnis regard him highly whether he was a Persian or an Arab. So, if we want to prove to them the concept of Mahdaviyat, it won't be out of place to quote Abi Dawud.

Otherwise, you are saying that all our scholars are wrong who quoted him in order to put forth evidence for the concept of Mahdaviyat from Sunni books.

You can go through these books here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...t&p=1600360

All (or at least most) have included traditions from Sunni sources as well. Prove all these scholars wrong, and I'll believe you.

As for your ironic transliteration of the Iranian "Mahdaviyat" ..and that I as an Iranian should learn about it, i believe you need it more than i do.

Lol, you seem to put nationalism [actually, ultranationalism] first before your religion.. It's not an "Iranian transliteration" of Mahdaviyat. I, as a Shi'ite, always refer to it as such. I can't help it if you have understood it differently than what intended. .and I do believe that you need to enlighten yourself considering that you don't know much about the expert scholars on this subject. .and keep referring to them as "one or two to suit your opinion". :squeez: [i don't like to boast nor do I consider myself as very knowledgeable. .but your rhetoric has compelled me to give you this advice]

Edited by SpIzo

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Úóáöíøõ Èúäõ ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó Úóäú ÃóÈöíåö Úóäú ÍóäóÇäö Èúäö ÓóÏöíÑò Úóäú ãóÚúÑõæÝö Èúäö ÎóÑøóÈõæÐó Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÌóÚúÝóÑò ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞóÇáó ÅöäøóãóÇ äóÍúäõ ßóäõÌõæãö ÇáÓøóãóÇÁö ßõáøóãóÇ ÛóÇÈó äóÌúãñ ØóáóÚó äóÌúãñ ÍóÊøóì ÅöÐóÇ ÃóÔóÑúÊõãú ÈöÃóÕóÇÈöÚößõãú æó ãöáúÊõãú ÈöÃóÚúäóÇÞößõãú ÛóíøóÈó Çááøóåõ Úóäúßõãú äóÌúãóßõãú ÝóÇÓúÊóæóÊú Èóäõæ ÚóÈúÏö ÇáúãõØøóáöÈö Ýóáóãú íõÚúÑóÝú Ãóíøñ ãöäú Ãóíøò ÝóÅöÐóÇ ØóáóÚó äóÌúãõßõãú ÝóÇÍúãóÏõæÇ ÑóÈøóßõãú

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Hannan ibn Sadir from Ma‘ruf ibn Kharrabudh from abu Ja'far (as) who has said the following: "We only are like the stars in heaven. Whenever one star disappears (from sight) another one comes into view and you can point to him with your fingers and make a gesture with your necks (for publicity). Allah will then cause your star to disappear from your sight. The descendents of ‘Abd al-Muttalib all look similar and you will have difficulty to discern one from the other. When your star will reappear you must thank your Lord."

Majlisi: Mawaththaq-Hasan

Behbudi: Sahih

---

Úóáöíøõ Èúäõ ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó Úóäú ÃóÈöíåö Úóäö ÇÈúäö ÃóÈöí ÚõãóíúÑò Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÃóíøõæÈó ÇáúÎóÒøóÇÒö Úóäú ãõÍóãøóÏö Èúäö ãõÓúáöãò ÞóÇáó ÓóãöÚúÊõ ÃóÈóÇ ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) íóÞõæáõ Åöäú ÈóáóÛóßõãú Úóäú ÕóÇÍöÈö åóÐóÇ ÇáúÃóãúÑö ÛóíúÈóÉñ ÝóáóÇ ÊõäúßöÑõæåóÇ

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu Ayyub al-Khazzaz from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said the following: “I heard abu ‘Abd Allah (as) say, ‘If you are told that the person in charge of establishing the Kingdom of Allah on earth and owner of (Leadership with Divine Authority) will disappear from public sight you must not reject it.’”

Majlisi: Hasan

Behbudi: Sahih

Ref: al-Kafi

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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^He's looking for 'sahih' hadith. He didn't say Sunni-Sahih-Hadith. :unsure:

1) I found no Sahih narration that Al-Mahdi was born. So to make such a strong statement of a person living more than a thousand years without a Sahih narration would be hard to digest. If anyone has such a narration, please provide it.

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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Hmmm, there seems to be great misconceptions from what I read by Splzo and by Rubaiyat. So let me try to clarify.

First to Rubaiyat:

“Take a look at this video to have an insight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4iv08JOwCk”

I tend not to listen to crazy people like Qadhafi.

By that time, the Shiite theology of Jafar Sadeq had already penetrated Hanafist and Malikist thinking

We do not call it penetration, we call it learning from each other. To us, Jafar Al Sadeq, who lived and died in Madinah by the way, is one of the great scholars in Islam. We only disagree with the methodology the shia use in dealing with his narrations. Unfortunately, the Sunni’s sophistication in criticizing the accuracy of hadiths was not carried on by the other schools of Islam. That is why you would find crazy sayings that are attributed to Jafar Al sadeq that could have never been coming out of his mouth. An example, Aba Abdellah said: “Eating mud brings hypocrisy to a person” Al-Kafi [2:265].

One more point on this subject, there is a great misconception that the Shias are the students of Ahlu AlBayt and the Sunnis are not. Here is a quick comparison between what our books have from the sayings of Ahlu Albayt and what the Shia’s books have (I’m comparing the Sunnis six books of Hadith to the Shias four books of Hadith):

1) Fatima’s (ra) narrations: 11 in Sunni books, 0, yes 0, in the four mother books of Shia.

2) Ali’s (ra) narrations: 1583 in Sunni books, 690 in Shia books.

Second to Splzo, Oooooh Splzo:

I appreciate your links, but can you just write you answers so the discussion is more precise and to the point, instead of pasting links. Regarding your links, I think you misunderstood my questions. Al-Mahdi is acknowledged by Sunnis, so this is not what is on trial. I was asking if you have any Sahih reference to him being born, that is all. Regarding your explanation of the role of Al-Mahdi, you really did not give me any role. So can you expand on this point.

Sunan Abi Dawud is one of the Sahih books.

We have two Sahih books, Al bukhari and Muslim.

I’m in a rush now, so I’ll be back inshallah to address the rest of the points. Salam.

Edited by snafial

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Second to Splzo, Oooooh Splzo:

I appreciate your links, but can you just write you answers so the discussion is more precise and to the point, instead of pasting links. Regarding your links, I think you misunderstood my questions.

Both the links answered your questions.

Al-Mahdi is acknowledged by Sunnis, so this is not what is on trial.

. .and that's not what the link proved. Did you read the whole thing?

I was asking if you have any Sahih reference to him being born, that is all.

If by Sahih, you mean from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, then there aren't any. But Sunni historians/scholars have acknowledged that Imam al-Mahdi (atf) has been born. You can check out the references here: http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l...ahdi/05.htm#six

Regarding your explanation of the role of Al-Mahdi, you really did not give me any role. So can you expand on this point.

His role is the same as that of his predecessors - the successors of the Holy Prophet (s) - to guide the people to the truth and preserve the sanctity of Islam.

I'd like to ask you:

- In Sahih books, I'm sure you must be aware there are plenty of narrations on twelve caliphs. Who is the caliph according to you, today?

- How would you know when Imam al-Mahdi (atf) is born? Would there be a trumpet blown by an angel or something?

We have two Sahih books, Al bukhari and Muslim.

It's given here:

  • 3rd. Abu Da’ud/Dawud/Dawood al Sidjistani (817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.) has the third most authoritative collection of hadiths. He submitted his collection to Ahmad bin Hanbal, who approved it. He collected 4,800 hadiths out of 500,000. His had the principle that "transmitters are considered trustworthy provided there is no formal proof to discredit them."
    ............
    These six collections together are called Sihah Sitta. Beyond these early six collections are others. Some Muslims believe a seventh hadith collection is also authoritative: the Muwatta’ Malik. Other Sunni Hadiths are: Sunan al-Darimi, Musnad of al-Humaydi, Sunan al-Daraqutni and the Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal
http://www.muslimhope.com/IslamIndex.htm

Most knowledgeable Sunnis whom I've come across know about the Sihah Sitta.

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Why would you have a "sahih" hadith (correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you mean a prophetic hadith found in a Sunni collection) saying that he had been born, when during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) he hadn't?

You are missing the point. We know that Prohphet Mohammad (pbuh) did exist because of the Quran and the Sunnah, for exmaple verse [48:29] "Muhammad is the messenger of God and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves." And we know that x, y, and z individuals exisited in a certain period of time because of the Sahih, which just means correct in Arabic, narrations about their lives. However, we find no such narrations when it comes to Al-Mahdi. This is even more extraordinary when we have people believing that he has been living for more than 1200 years with no single proof of his birth and/or existence. Furthermore, we have proof of his “non-existence,” which I will provide inshallah.

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Just as a side note, this may interest you: http://www.al-islam.org/truthaboutshiah/9.htm

Again, can you please reply with words not links. I can easily google "Al-Mahdi in Sunni and Shia Islam" and post hundreds of links for you, but would that be a discussion? What I’m trying to do with his thread is to provide for the readers a question-and-answer discussion where opinions are expressed and the proofs are put forward to back the opinions. I think this is a healthier way to reach a common ground.

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Splzo:

If by Sahih, you mean from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, then there aren't any. But Sunni historians/scholars have acknowledged that Imam al-Mahdi (atf) has been born. You can check out the references here: http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l...ahdi/05.htm#six

Firstly, the six books are Sunni books, so we are the ones who determine what is Sahih and what is not. For example, if “Sunan Abi Dawood” is all true, why did Al-Albani published a book called “What is weak in Sunan Abi Dawood”? I think the Shias’ confusion about the six books can be clarified by the following:

1) The scholars of hadith have set rules, that are available for everyone and can be used for us or against us. Al-Bukhari and Muslim happen to narrate the Hadiths according to these rules but with minor difference, otherwise their books would be identical. Therefore, AL-bukhari and Muslim are closer to accuracy that any other Hadith book.

2) The other four books do not implement the strict rules provided that is why we have scholars like Al-Albani who review the books and give their reasons of why some content is Sahih and why some content is not.

His role is the same as that of his predecessors - the successors of the Holy Prophet (s) - to guide the people to the truth and preserve the sanctity of Islam.

Tell me one person Al-Mahdi guided and one instance where Al-Mahdi protected the sanctity of Islam.

In Sahih books, I'm sure you must be aware there are plenty of narrations on twelve caliphs. Who is the caliph according to you, today?

You may be referring to Al-bukhari: Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329: “Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish.”

In Sahih Muslim, with more length and in more than one narration, one of which: “Book 020, Number 4480: “It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.”

From the previous Hadiths we conclude the following:

1) They are twelve AMIR, twelve KHALIFA.

2) All from Quraish.

3) From Sahih Muslim: “Islam will continue to be triumphant.”

However:

1) we find that only Ali (ra) and Al-Hasan (ra) were Khalifas. Therefore the Hadiths do not apply on the twelve Imams.

2) Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) has what we call in Arabic Jawame’e Alkalem, which means that he can say with few words what we can’t say. Just about the contrary of us typing these loooong paragraphs and still do not convey what we want to express. Therefore, the term “from Quraish” should’ve been substituted by the more precise term “from bni Hashim” had the twelve Khalifs been from Bni Hashim only.

3) Is Islam triumphant now? I leave the answer to you.

4) From the previous points, what I can say is that we don’t give extra meaning to the Hadiths of the Prophet (pbup) if we don’t have the PROOF. We have the proof that twelve good Khalifas from Quraish will role, but that is about it. Are we required to know them? If yes give me, you guessed it, proof. So the question becomes: Why the Imams are the descendants Al-Hussain (ra)? Why not Al-Hassan (ra)? Since we have no proof to that extra “part of faith” we restrain to add from our imagination what we see fit.

- How would you know when Imam al-Mahdi (atf) is born? Would there be a trumpet blown by an angel or something?

Refer to my answer to macisaac.

Edited by snafial

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(salam)

There are two concepts of Quran I want you to re-call snafial.

(1) True Kingdom.

(2) Malakut Family Relationship.

Regarding True Kingdom, the Quran narrates the story of a Prophet (as) appointing a True King, Talut (as). When asked about how he he is King while not having wealth, the Prophet (as) responded:

Allah has Chosen him Above you

And increased him knowledge and physique

And Allah gives his kingdom to whom he pleases

And Allah is All-Embracing, Knowing.

This shows the Chosen ones automatically exercise authority over rest. The line, So then we gave the family of Ibrahim the book and the wisdom, and we gave them a grand kingdom shows that Ibrahim (as), Ismael (as), Isaac (as), Yaqoub (as), Yusuf (as) ruled over mankind and had authority over them.

The family of Imran (as) were also True Authorities and Masters of Mankind. Regarding Yahya (as), Allah (swt) says "And a Master/Leader". This is despite Yahya (as) not being accepted by most of Bani-Israel and being killed for his steadfastness against the Taghoot of his time.

A sufficient sign of authority for Talut (as) was his inheriting the family of the Musa (as) and Harun (as). I say "family" because the singular "taraka" shows the "family of Musa" is considered the "family of Harun" and this was a significant point being brought by their Nabi (as). If your brother had kids and you had kids, your two families would be considered different. But here, the "the family of Musa" is the "family of Harun". What type of family is it discussing here?

Allah (swt) says "Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds" "offspring some of it from some.." and said in more then once place "and the Tribes". In Suratal Hud, it says to Nuh (as), "he is not of your family, verily he is of doer of other then deeds that set aright". And said "from a blessed tree neither eastern or western".

The blessed Tree is whence all Anbiya (as) come from. It's consists of chosen people like Imran (as) and Talut (as). These offsprings and tribes of chosen souls form a chosen malakuti relationship.

From the view of normal physical relationship, a son is part of the father's family no matter what sins he commits. Purely biologically, he is of the family of the father. However, from the view of the Malakut family relationship, only those whom inherit the treasured light and tranquility can be of the blessed family. Same with "And the tribes".

Now you said he must have said "Bani-Hashim". But the issue is "Bani-Hashim" is not mentioned in Quran but "Quraysh" is. The "Quraysh" in Quran are said to people whom Allah (swt) kept safe from fear. Allah (swt) says about the friends of God "no fear is upon them". This is only true of the friends of God while fear is upon disbelievers, like Abu Lahab. They rely on spider of web of delusions and have no safety from Allah (swt). Remembering the Chosen Malakuti relationship, from the same angle of "he is not of your family, verily he is doer of other then what set's aright", then all those whom commited Shirk for sure will not count in this type of relationship. The Tribe here is of the chosen tribes "And the Tribes" and refers to chosen offspring of Ismail (as). From the angle of "he is not of your family", then those whom committed shirk for sure are not of the tribe of the Nabi (pbuh). This is the Malakuti relationship tribe "And the tribes" "offspring, some of it from some" "from a blessed olive tree".

So the context of "from Quraysh" has a basis in Quran, since "Quraysh" of Quran are of the Chosen offspring of Ismail (as), treasures whom peace is upon and no fear is upon.

They are protected by the Name of Allah (swt) and free from fear and hunger. They are chosen souls like the Grandfather (as) of the Nabi (saw) whom defended the Kaba.

Keeping in mind, the True Kingdom, and the Chosen family Tie Relationship, "There will be Twelve Amirs/Caliphs, all them from from Quraysh" can be seen to imply

Twelve Chosen Leaders.

All from chosen bloodline linked back to the Tribe of chosen offspring of Ismail (as) that Mohammad (saw) comes from.

If we go through definition of "Ruler" which includes any whom get's in power in eyes of most Muslims. And "Quraysh" to be of normal blood relationship. Then there more then "twelve Amirs" from "Quraysh" and the hadith is simply not true.

If we go by the definiton of True Kings and Malakuti Light Relationship as well as physical, then Twelve Chosen Leaders (as) from branch of the blessed tree, a tribe of chosen offspring of Ismail (as), is the conclusion. The hadith would be true from this angle if you accept the Twelve Imams (as).

Coupled with "Quran and Ahlulbayt", it becomes even clearer.

wa salam

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Awakened:

1) How would you describe the lineage of the Prophets? Is it fair to say that the lineage is perfect? Divine? Superior? Or impeccable? Answering this question would clarify some hazy points in your reply.

2) Another question that would clarify a lot for me, Do you mean that Quraish is a term used in Quran only for the believers and those who are disbelievers are not from Quraish?

3) Regardless of your answer to these questions, I still carry three unanswered questions:

a. Is there a proof to Al-Mahdi’s birth?

b. What is the role of Al-Mahdi is the current time?

c. On what basis do you support that the Imams are the descendant of Al-Hussain (ra)?

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Awakened:

1) How would you describe the lineage of the Prophets? Is it fair to say that the lineage is perfect? Divine? Superior? Or impeccable? Answering this question would clarify some hazy points in your reply.

All from Chosen Ones (as). The lineages they come from are all chosen people and superior people.

2) Another question that would clarify a lot for me, Do you mean that Quraish is a term used in Quran only for the believers and those who are disbelievers are not from Quraish?

There is Chosen Malakuti family and non-chosen family. Here the term is referring to chosen ones, so of course all believers.

3) Regardless of your answer to these questions, I still carry three unanswered questions:

ok

a. Is there a proof to Al-Mahdi’s birth?

yes

b. What is the role of Al-Mahdi is the current time?

See my thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234954291

c. On what basis do you support that the Imams are the descendant of Al-Hussain (ra)?

You mean what is the proof of Nass of the 9 Imams (as) from Hussain (as) ?

Edited by Awakened

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You are missing the point. We know that Prohphet Mohammad (pbuh) did exist because of the Quran and the Sunnah, for exmaple verse [48:29] "Muhammad is the messenger of God and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves." And we know that x, y, and z individuals exisited in a certain period of time because of the Sahih, which just means correct in Arabic, narrations about their lives. However, we find no such narrations when it comes to Al-Mahdi.

Actually, you are missing the point. I think macisaac asked an excellent question which you are trying to wriggle out of.

He's not talking about Prophet Muhammad's existence. .but he's asking you that why will a sahih hadith [if you are talking about prophetic narrations] exist about Imam Mahdi (atf) being born, when he wasn't born yet [during the time of the Prophet (s)].

This is even more extraordinary when we have people believing that he has been living for more than 1200 years with no single proof of his birth and/or existence.

What is more extraordinary is that you refuse to check out the sources which were provided to you, and continue on with this rhetoric.

Furthermore, we have proof of his “non-existence,” which I will provide inshallah.

I'm waiting with bated breath.

Again, can you please reply with words not links. I can easily google "Al-Mahdi in Sunni and Shia Islam" and post hundreds of links for you, but would that be a discussion? What I’m trying to do with his thread is to provide for the readers a question-and-answer discussion where opinions are expressed and the proofs are put forward to back the opinions. I think this is a healthier way to reach a common ground.

I provide links because the authors have done a great job in 'conveying' the message, which proves my point. Your point is silly, because it shows that you do not want to understand, just point out flaws.

But if you want, I'll C&P from those links, just for you, if you don't want links, but words.

Firstly, the six books are Sunni books, so we are the ones who determine what is Sahih and what is not.

I never said I or the Shi'ite scholars determined it, did I? I quoted from a Sunni site which said that they are authentic books.

For example, if “Sunan Abi Dawood” is all true, why did Al-Albani published a book called “What is weak in Sunan Abi Dawood”? I think the Shias’ confusion about the six books can be clarified by the following:

1) The scholars of hadith have set rules, that are available for everyone and can be used for us or against us. Al-Bukhari and Muslim happen to narrate the Hadiths according to these rules but with minor difference, otherwise their books would be identical. Therefore, AL-bukhari and Muslim are closer to accuracy that any other Hadith book.

2) The other four books do not implement the strict rules provided that is why we have scholars like Al-Albani who review the books and give their reasons of why some content is Sahih and why some content is not.

Which is completely irrelevant. Albani is a Salafi scholar who has been refuted by the Sunnis themselves. So, I take it you're a Salafi?

Tell me one person Al-Mahdi guided and one instance where Al-Mahdi protected the sanctity of Islam.

First, will you accept it if I tell you?

You may be referring to Al-bukhari: Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329: “Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish.”

In Sahih Muslim, with more length and in more than one narration, one of which: “Book 020, Number 4480: “It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.”

I'm referring to countless traditions which refer to this hadith, not just those specific references which you provided.

From the previous Hadiths we conclude the following:

1) They are twelve AMIR, twelve KHALIFA.

2) All from Quraish.

Prove to me twelve caliphs from your history. Not more, not less.

3) Is Islam triumphant now? I leave the answer to you.

Hmm . .don't pick and choose. It doesn't look good, you know. I'll give you more traditions. .and you explain to me their meanings:

  • Book 020, Number 4478:
    It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.
  • Book 020, Number 4477:
    It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.
  • Book 020, Number 4482:
    It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.
  • Sunan Abi Dawud: Book 36, Number 4266:
    Narrated Jabir ibn Samurah:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The religion will continue to be established till there are twelve caliphs over you, and the whole community will agree on each of them. I then heard from the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) some remarks which I could not understand. I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them will belong to Quraysh.

Is Islam triumphant today? I don't know the answer. You tell me.

Is Islam destroyed today? If it is destroyed, what Islam are you following? The distorted/destroyed one?

4) From the previous points, what I can say is that we don’t give extra meaning to the Hadiths of the Prophet (pbup) if we don’t have the PROOF. We have the proof that twelve good Khalifas from Quraish will role, but that is about it. Are we required to know them? If yes give me, you guessed it, proof. So the question becomes: Why the Imams are the descendants Al-Hussain (ra)? Why not Al-Hassan (ra)? Since we have no proof to that extra “part of faith” we restrain to add from our imagination what we see fit.

Completely pointless.

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First, will you accept it if I tell you?

I’m gonna wait on writing a comprehensive reply until you give me the one person guided be Al-Mahdi and the one instance where he preserved the sanctity of Islam. So, please tell me, then I’ll decide if your answer is acceptable. It doesn’t work the other way around. Please provide a proof to your answer.

Edited by snafial

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I’m gonna wait on writing a comprehensive reply until you give me the one person guided be Al-Mahdi and the one instance where he preserved the sanctity of Islam. So, please tell me, then I’ll decide if your answer is acceptable. It doesn’t work the other way around. Please provide a proof to your answer.

Well, if you are not going to accept it [since you already seem decided anyway], I'm not going to waste my time proving it. You have to answer my questions first [which you conveniently avoided].

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(salam)

Mehdi(SA) is not a concept -- He is a fact --- its not sunnism 0r shiaism --- its a fact every muslim believes in --- just a mare difference of views on how will he arrive and from what sect he will be from ---- Most sunnis say that he will be a sunni without pro0f and most shias believe in his existance till now n believe him to be shia of ahley bayt. The believe in his existance has given enough courage to his supporters(Iran is a perfect example) n those who reject his existance, even though they have every worldly good, are courageless and cowards ( Saudi arabia and egypt a perfect example).

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"You will invade the Arabian Peninsula and God will grant it. Then Persia and God will grant it. Then you shall invade Ar-Rum (Europe) and God will grant it. Then you shall attack the Antichrist and God shall give him to you"The Messenger of God was then asked "which of the two cities will be conquered first - Constantinople or Rome?" and the Holy Prophet PBUH replied : " The city of Heraclius (Constantinople) will be conquered FIRST"

From this hadith we have to 1st get rome before the Mahdi is due so Mahdi AS is a long way away as we havent conquered rome yet. Sorry to dissapoint all those who think imam mahdi is coming any moment. But then this is just a hadith.

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I’m gonna wait on writing a comprehensive reply until you give me the one person guided be Al-Mahdi and the one instance where he preserved the sanctity of Islam. So, please tell me, then I’ll decide if your answer is acceptable. It doesn’t work the other way around. Please provide a proof to your answer.

It has been nine days since you have promised the above. Who you are fooling, go ahead and bring your cut and paste.

And, then we have the sahih sittah. Wait it is not sahih sittah, it is sahihian. When quoted from sahih Muslims, the answer is it is not sahih Bukhari. When quoted from sahih Bukhari the answer is that it is a daif hadith, and we know our books better than you.

So why call them sahih?

Been there, done that and don't care anymore!

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