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postmaster1923

Alcohol being consumed at kids party?

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(salam)

I know that it is haram to consume food or drink in a place where people are drinking alcohol, but if my child is invited to another child's party, and at that party some of the adults are having some alcohol, am I supposed to prevent my children from having food or drink also? (Obviously I wouldn't eat or drink there once I realize people are having alcohol.) Assume I had no idea in advance that the adults would be drinking alcohol, because it seems very strange to me for parents to drink in the presence of children. Also assume that none of the adults who are drinking alcohol are consuming enough to be visibly affected. I would immediately take my children and leave if there were visibly drunk people present.

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(salam)

I know that it is haram to consume food or drink in a place where people are drinking alcohol, but if my child is invited to another child's party, and at that party some of the adults are having some alcohol, am I supposed to prevent my children from having food or drink also? (Obviously I wouldn't eat or drink there once I realize people are having alcohol.) Assume I had no idea in advance that the adults would be drinking alcohol, because it seems very strange to me for parents to drink in the presence of children. Also assume that none of the adults who are drinking alcohol are consuming enough to be visibly affected. I would immediately take my children and leave if there were visibly drunk people present.

Wa wr wb.

If it was me I would take my kids and go because there is a hadith that said something like....don't stay in the company of those drinking because when the curse descends it may be include you as well. I understand you may've not known that it would be present beforehand, but still even if the kids are too young I would avoid such a place since other morals/values are bound to be broken as well at the place.

Edited by gogiison2

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I'm trying to be non-judgmental here. It seems very strange to me for adults to drink alcohol while children are present because my (non-Muslim) parents never drank alcohol. However, I am aware that for many families, having a beer is a perfectly normal thing to do in an evening at home, and as long as they are not becoming intoxicated it doesn't violate Christian morals. Assume there is no reason to think other morals and values are being broken, and my children are aware that the family that is hosting the party is non-Muslim and has values and beliefs which are different from ours. They probably don't notice that some of the adults are drinking beer, but if they do, they will be disgusted by it, not attracted toward it. They may even possibly ask "Why are you drinking alcohol? Don't you know it is poison?"

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(wasalam)

Huh... I had a very similar experience just this last week.

My son's football team had their banquet (this is for 9-10 years olds) where there's a meal, everyone gets a trophy, kids play around, etc. When we get there though, I see the adults holding bottles in their hands. Uh oh, I thought, and sure enough they were drinking. So we left. To recompense a mightily (and justifiably) disappointed child we went out to Chuck E Cheese instead :-)

(A kids banquet, and in your case a party, and the adults still had their alcohol involved. Disgusting and appalling.)

Edited by macisaac

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The rule is that you can't sit with people who are drinking, sit at the same table.

Whenever I go back to California to visit my relatives, there are some members of my family who insist on drinking

at every family get together. I asked them several times, but they basically told me they don't care and if I don't like it

then I can just not come to these gatherings. So I want my kids to know that my (non muslim) family exists.

I go to the gatherings but make a 'non drinking' section. The good part is that my father and other close relatives finally

joined the 'non drinking' section and that was a big achievement, a milestone.

It's hard for my non muslim relatives to imaging a kids birthday or any other gathering where there is more than two or three people

where there is not drinking. Maybe that's a regional difference, I don't know. Salams,

BTW, the mentioned hadith about 'punishment' coming down on a gathering and you being there doesn't apply in this case.

There are many other hadiths that say if there is even one believer who is trying to keep within the laws of Allah(s.w.a) in a certain place

Allah(s.w.a) will not destroy that place(in a violent, catastrophic way so that noone can escape).

Edited by Abu Hadi

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The rule is that you can't sit with people who are drinking, sit at the same table.

Whenever I go back to California to visit my relatives, there are some members of my family who insist on drinking

at every family get together. I asked them several times, but they basically told me they don't care and if I don't like it

then I can just not come to these gatherings. So I want my kids to know that my (non muslim) family exists.

I go to the gatherings but make a 'non drinking' section. The good part is that my father and other close relatives finally

joined the 'non drinking' section and that was a big achievement, a milestone.

It's hard for my non muslim relatives to imaging a kids birthday or any other gathering where there is more than two or three people

where there is not drinking. Maybe that's a regional difference, I don't know. Salams,

BTW, the mentioned hadith about 'punishment' coming down on a gathering and you being there doesn't apply in this case.

There are many other hadiths that say if there is even one believer who is trying to keep within the laws of Allah(s.w.a) in a certain place

Allah(s.w.a) will not destroy that place(in a violent, catastrophic way so that noone can escape).

Is it really trying if we're going there repeatedly? I think if the non drinking room was in a different place such as the drinkers cannot be seen or heard, then I think this hadith may not apply to you.

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Is it really trying if we're going there repeatedly? I think if the non drinking room was in a different place such as the drinkers cannot be seen or heard, then I think this hadith may not apply to you.

Repeatedly? In the case I described, the fact that some folks had beer was unexpected. How could a person be surprised on repeated occasions by the same thing? Anyway, I don't think seen or heard is an issue. According to Ayt. Sistani, as long as you don't sit at the same table as them and eat and drink, you can go to gatherings where alcohol is consumed.

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Repeatedly? In the case I described, the fact that some folks had beer was unexpected. How could a person be surprised on repeated occasions by the same thing? Anyway, I don't think seen or heard is an issue. According to Ayt. Sistani, as long as you don't sit at the same table as them and eat and drink, you can go to gatherings where alcohol is consumed.

Sister I was replying to post #5 by Abu Hadi.

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There really is no "table" at a typical kids party, by the way. There was a table for the cake, but for the most part kids and adults were walking around and sitting anywhere with their food and drink. My sons and some other boys went downstairs to play video games, and most adults stayed on the main level. Some children and adults also went upstairs to watch a movie, and I don't know if anyone had beer upstairs. No adults were drinking alcohol downstairs where the children were playing video games at the event that I'm thinking of, but I'd like to have general answers for in case a similar situation arises again someday.

Given that there was no "table", I concluded that I should not eat or drink in any room where people were drinking alcohol, but I was unsure whether I should also compel my children to not eat or drink if they should happen to be in a room where someone was having a beer.

Edited by smiley

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Is it really trying if we're going there repeatedly? I think if the non drinking room was in a different place such as the drinkers cannot be seen or heard, then I think this hadith may not apply to you.

They put me in a position (in the beginning) between practically cutting off relations with my family or tolerating the drinking in the same house (but not the same area in the house). I asked my marja specifically about this situation and his response was to set up the area where there is no drinking going on and stay in that area. Fortunately, my grandmothers house (where all the family gatherings take place) is large enough where we can make 'sections' . If they were not my direct blood relatives, I would definitely not go and would not let my children attend.

Also, some of you don't understand that many of us live in places where alcohol is ubiquitous. In other words, everywhere you go and every gathering you go to there is alcohol. So you have two choices, don't socialize with anyone or tolerate it, within the limits that are permissible by the Sharia. Inshahallah none of us on this site drink , so obviously we are very uncomfortable being around it at all. There are some parts of your environment that are outside of your control. Fortunately, Alhamduillah, some of my family is muslim and I live in a city (Dearborn) where drinking alcohol is not common (at least in public). There are many br and sis in other parts of the US who are in a different situation and maybe they are the only muslims in their family and live in an area where there are none or very few muslims. We should take that into consideration when replying.

If you are in a building and someone walks in front of you holding a beer what will you do? Run out of the building?

Edited by Abu Hadi

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^ If I'm in a building and someone walks in front of me holding a beer I would assume he would continue walking. So I wouldn't need to run. Whether family or not, sin is sin. You could also visit family when they don't drink right?

Edit: Also, brother I think this is somewhat of a judgement call. I would of course recommend a momin to stay away from such a place, but if that puts too much of a burden on one, then maybe the best route is to go and keep at a seperate section or what have you for the sake of not leaving the religion or going crazy.

Edited by gogiison2

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If you are in a building and someone walks in front of you holding a beer what will you do? Run out of the building?

Sometimes we can't run away from everything. It's best to tolerate it if that's the case.

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^ If I'm in a building and someone walks in front of me holding a beer I would assume he would continue walking. So I wouldn't need to run. Whether family or not, sin is sin. You could also visit family when they don't drink right?

Edit: Also, brother I think this is somewhat of a judgement call. I would of course recommend a momin to stay away from such a place, but if that puts too much of a burden on one, then maybe the best route is to go and keep at a seperate section or what have you for the sake of not leaving the religion or going crazy.

His marja has told him what to do so I think that's enough for him.

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I'd go along with the view that both parents and kids should leave such a party.

However, sometimes the observant Muslim position can seem so killjoy and unreasonable can't it?

But I think the Muslim stand can easily be rationalised. A lot of those beer drinkers would be mightily offended and would do the same (they would walk out) if there were parents at such a party who were smoking marijuana.

Islam is just being consistent in dealing with the two drugs in the same way.

Must say that I have been in a very tough position over the past few years. My cousin has 'married' a non-observant Iranian girl who serves alcohol at their sons' birthday parties. I have refused to attend, but my mum does not want to offend family sensibilities, so am forced to go along.

But as my eldest is now 4, the danger is that she will come to regard this as being acceptable, so my wife and I have decided to start making excuses not to attend.

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assalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah

I think that it is dangerous to show acceptance of the haram at any level; and I think that remaining present while haram is taking place will be interpreted by the young mind as tacit approval of what is happening. At the same time, I think that we should make our points about the haram to our children in a calm manner so that they do not take our over-reaction as an indication that something mysterious and exciting is taking place. Children will naturally follow their curiosity; and over-reacting can spark that curiosity.

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Okay, I am not being judgmental and I am not specifically referring to anyone but in my opinion children shouldn't be taken to places where there is any immorality be it alcohol or some other thing. I don't think socializing is that important for anyone to disregard the influence these immoral things would have on the children.

When it comes to family, you have to maintain relations with them too. What my parents do is that when they know that there will be something unislamic going on at some place where they have been invited and they have to attend [close relatives], they never take us along and just drop in to say hi err salam and leave quickly.

I used to feel resentful about this when I was a kid but now I understand. :P

I'll be doing the same with my kids @) B)

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There really is no "table" at a typical kids party, by the way. There was a table for the cake, but for the most part kids and adults were walking around and sitting anywhere with their food and drink. My sons and some other boys went downstairs to play video games, and most adults stayed on the main level. Some children and adults also went upstairs to watch a movie, and I don't know if anyone had beer upstairs. No adults were drinking alcohol downstairs where the children were playing video games at the event that I'm thinking of, but I'd like to have general answers for in case a similar situation arises again someday.

Given that there was no "table", I concluded that I should not eat or drink in any room where people were drinking alcohol, but I was unsure whether I should also compel my children to not eat or drink if they should happen to be in a room where someone was having a beer.

Technically, if your children aren't baligh yet, it's not a major issue

However, aside from the technicality, I don't think it is healthy for adults to be drinking at a kids' birthday party, especially if alcohol is less common where you live. I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't be passing out beer at the local elementary school. I would personally take the kids into another room until the adults were done and there were no traces of alcohol in the air/bottles/etc. I also wouldn't leave them there unattended.

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Is it really trying if we're going there repeatedly? I think if the non drinking room was in a different place such as the drinkers cannot be seen or heard, then I think this hadith may not apply to you.

That seems rather aggressive, don't you think? Br. Abu Hadi does not seem like the type who is 'not trying'. In fact, from reading his posts, I have the feeling that he does put a lot of effort into living a pure life according to what Allah and Ahl al-Bayt have taught.

Must say that I have been in a very tough position over the past few years. My cousin has 'married' a non-observant Iranian girl who serves alcohol at their sons' birthday parties. I have refused to attend, but my mum does not want to offend family sensibilities, so am forced to go along.

But as my eldest is now 4, the danger is that she will come to regard this as being acceptable, so my wife and I have decided to start making excuses not to attend.

I think it's much harder when the drinkers are Muslims. At least when they are non Muslims, you can say 'they drink because they are not Muslim and they don't know it is haram' or something like that.

Again, I think serving it at a birthday party is way too far and, at the risk of offending u (cuz it's ur family), it seems to me that some 'non-observant Muslims' go to extra effort to oppose the laws of Islam just to prove that they don't care

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That seems rather aggressive, don't you think? Br. Abu Hadi does not seem like the type who is 'not trying'. In fact, from reading his posts, I have the feeling that he does put a lot of effort into living a pure life according to what Allah and Ahl al-Bayt have taught.

I think it's much harder when the drinkers are Muslims. At least when they are non Muslims, you can say 'they drink because they are not Muslim and they don't know it is haram' or something like that.

Again, I think serving it at a birthday party is way too far and, at the risk of offending u (cuz it's ur family), it seems to me that some 'non-observant Muslims' go to extra effort to oppose the laws of Islam just to prove that they don't care

Well, many will say islam is aggressive, it depends how you look at it, and the effect that it has on the mind/soul. We don't understand everything, our brains are too small, that is why we trust the message of masooms.

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Well, many will say islam is aggressive, it depends how you look at it, and the effect that it has on the mind/soul. We don't understand everything, our brains are too small, that is why we trust the message of masooms.

No offense br, but my marjaa has settled the fiqh issue for me. So your opinions on fiqh mean absolutely nothing to me compared with the opinions of my marjaa.

The other issue is the influence on children, which has been brought up by sis Whizbee and others. That is a more difficult situation to deal with. Since we are talking about children's birthday parties here, I will tell you that had I told my marjaa that it is a children's birthday party, there will be drinking, and the people attending are not my direct blood relatives (father, grandparents, aunts, uncles), he would have said it is haram to attend. The only reason he said it was halal was because of other conditions (like the blood relationship), the fact that my non muslim relatives live out of state and I see them only about 1 or 2 days per year, etc. I am not going to say more than that about my situation. I am not trying to defend my position in front of anyone on SC, because I have already resolved this issue for myself. The point is that no hadith, fatwa, etc can be taken in isolation. Islam is the religion of common sense. The rule is don't expose your children to anything haram (even in a limited way). It is not worth it (i.e. more negative value in them being exposed to it). There are a few exceptions (as there are with most rules) where the positive value of the actions outweighs the negative value of being exposed to haram in a limited way (not doing anything that explicitly violates Sharia). You need good judgement, and sometimes an opinion of a marjaa to make this call.

I can't say whether it is a good idea in the case of sis Smiley. I think she has good enough judgement to be able to tell if the situation is overall beneficial or harmful, and she can always ask her marjaa. I don't have enough information to make a decision in her case. I have already made a decision in mine.

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No offense br, but my marjaa has settled the fiqh issue for me. So your opinions on fiqh mean absolutely nothing to me compared with the opinions of my marjaa.

assalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah

Actually, my impression is that this forum is dedicated to the discussion of and exchange of information regarding the rulings of our maraja`. We do have a forum to discuss ahadith; and soemone has been so kind as to set up a thread where one can request ahadith related to certain fiqhi rulings. But when someone posts a general question in this forum outside of the Fiqhi Hadiths thread, it seems more appropriate to either reply with information about the rulings of the maraja`, post a new thread in the hadiths section to discuss the ahadith related to that issue, or post in the Fiqhi Hadiths thread to discuss ahadith related to that issue.

Wouldn't that make more sense than clouding up otherwise fine information-gathering threads with distracting posts that lend to the idea that one can derive his own fatawa from ahadith? Of course, if that idea leads to a reduction in the amount of chatter that takes place on Shiachat, then it might not be such a good idea. After all, this is Shiachat.

Edited by pink

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Like I mentioned before, I did not expect that adults would be drinking alcohol. My children went downstairs to play video games with some other boys. I was downstairs with them, and the adults who were downstairs were not drinking any alcohol. I went upstairs to greet the parents of the little boy who was the friend of my children, and observed that upstairs some adults were drinking beer. As far as I could tell, only adults were present at that time and in that room, though the cake and snacks were located in that room so anyone could have entered, including children. What I did was I stayed downstairs with my children until I decided it would be reasonable to leave. It is highly unlikely that we will accept any future invitations to this home, but I was asking what the correct approach would be for in case such things come up again. My children do have many non-Muslim friends through their schools and activities, and I'd prefer to not have to prevent them from socializing at all.

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(salam)

Here in the west, some people drink alcoholic drink like it is water. And sometimes you do not know where they will be drinking and it is not practical to be running away all the time. I faced similar situation.

In the University which I attended, they are rules banning consuming of beer, wine etc from university activities or in university premise. And in one of academic gathering/meeting, belatedly I realized that some folks are drinking wines and maybe beers :Hijabi: I had no clue what they were drinking...we were drinking from paper cups. I know I was drinking apple juice in a paper cup and i was under the impression they too were drinking juices. :unsure:

If not told by them, I would never know.

See this meeting was organized by the University and they do have a strict no drinking of wine/beer policies. I asked if it is allowed to serve alcohol in the University program/premise. They laughed an informed me "Not in the usual case. But they was an exception here". I could never figure out what the exception was. I think people here don't need a reason not to drink alcohol. They need a reason not to.

I always get dirty looks when I say I don't drink. People look at me strange. Like "What is wrong with you". "Which planet are you from." :wacko:

You guys do not need to be harsh to Bro Hadi and Sister Smiley. We are trying our best to follow the Islamic law living in the western country.

Edited by Zareen

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(wasalam)

I think you seem to be taking some unfair flak on this, i don't think people realise that you did not intentionally send you rchildren to a party where alcohol was being consumed. I think the fact that you are asking this question shows it's clearly a concern to you!

My two cents, i think there are two things here, the fiqh perspective and the ehtical perspective. From the fiqh point of view i gather there is probably a difference of opinion amongst scholars, ranging from not eating at the same table probably all the way to not being in the same room or building. But then i think the halal and haraam of it is the minimum requirement right? Generally we would want to do more than just the bare minimum, like just s[Edited Out]ing a pass on a test. I think from an ethical perspective i would personally politely excuse myself from the gathering. Of course it's easy to say that being in my position, i don't know what your situation is and it may well be much more difficult, i gather you live in an area with very few muslims.

On a side note, my feeling is that we should avoid eating at anyones house (or restaurant) where alcohol or even haraam food is consumed for another reason too. I have read from some ulema (and you can check on this yourself for confirmation) that utensils that have been had alcohol in them should be washed three times, and even utensils that have become otherwise najis should be washed three times. In my mind i would find it highly doubtful that people would wash their utensils three times if they didn't feel they had a need to. In my mind it seems so unlikely that i don't think there can be any benefit of doubt.

Also i have heard that whatever you (or your children) consume can affect you (or them) spiritually, even if it was inadvertant, so maybe it's better to be safe than sorry. Maybe someone can shed more light on that?

Anyhow these are my thoughts and in no way a judgement on anyone elses actions.

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Salam,

First of all, I want to say that I can't stand anything about alchohol (the smell, how it looks, the way people act when they are drinking it, etc.) and, if possible, I would want to never be around it or anyone drinking it for the rest of my life. However, since I live in a non-Muslim country where the majority of people consume alchohol very regularly and see nothing wrong with it I have to set realistic limits for myself and my family (so that we can live our lives in a reasonable manner).

I'm not aware of any scholars who say that you cannot share a building with people who are drinkings. If their are such rulings, please share them. Most of the rulings that I have seen are along the lines of that you cannot engage in behaviors that would give the impression that you approve of the behavior of those who are drinking (such as eating at a table with them, etc.). I think setting up a "non-drinking section" at a family gathering (where most are non-Muslim) is a good idea and clearly convey's to those who are drinking that you neither condone nor support their activities. This is admirable.

Their is a difference (i.m.o.) when you are faced with a situation where a MUSLIM is openly drinking. In this case, I think it is better to admonish this person and not associate with them because they are fully aware that they are committing a sin and they are doing this openly. In the case of a non-Muslim, however, it is different because their religion does not prohibit alchohol, however, you have to protect yourself and your children. In that case, I think clearly seperating yourself from them, but not completely isolating yourself is enough.

Edited by Abu Ali 2

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I will never accompany people consuming alcohol in my presence and sure i wont let my kids be there.

(salam)

InshaAllah you don´t get in such situations that people are drinking alcohol.

I think in many gatherings they serve alcohol, and you have a hard time sitting in the non-alcoholic section/table because people are walking around with the drinks in their hands as somebody mentioned earlier.

I have left from my own childhood´s home because somebody was drinking alcohol, I felt bad as did my mother but she could´t tell the person that could you not drink alcohol.

My non-muslim close relatives know very well that I don´t drink and I am not allowed and do not want to sit around with people who drink, but what can I do if it's so common to them to have their beer.

They telling me for example:

"please do not wear your scarf in our presence"

is maybe them the same as I telling them that

"please do not consume alcohol in my presense."

Alcohol seems to be some people's cover unfortunately.

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^WA wr wb.

There is a big difference when you try to tell them not to sin and they trying to tell you to sin with this hijab-beer comparison. I want to reiterate that we cannot suppres the ummah's intelligence and rely only on a priest for all of our answers. We must read and understand the other religions as well so that we can teach them with logic and things that the non muslims will accept. You reap what you sow.

Edited by gogiison2

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My non-muslim close relatives know very well that I don´t drink and I am not allowed and do not want to sit around with people who drink, but what can I do if it's so common to them to have their beer.

They telling me for example:

"please do not wear your scarf in our presence"

is maybe them the same as I telling them that

"please do not consume alcohol in my presense."

Alcohol seems to be some people's cover unfortunately.

Well... yes and no. I think most people worldwide - Muslim or not - will acknowledge that not drinking is a morally good thing and that getting drunk is morally bad (especially when children are around). I mean, you wouldn't expect to see nuns hitting the pub or schoolteachers to be taking a swig in front of kindergarteners.

However, some people might hate hijab b/c it is a symbol of Islam. I think this is different.

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Salams to all,

My point was that Islam is a religion of common sense and education. We are to be educated about our religion so we can take the knowledge that we have and correctly apply it to sometimes difficult and unclear situations. My point about the building was that in real life situations are often fluid and hard to predict. It would be impossible to contact your marjaa in a situation like what sis smiley was in, so (I think) she used common sense and her best judgement to choose the action that she believed was morally right and in accordance with Sharia based on her knowledge at the time. That is how real life is, especially in the West where peoples behaviour and situations are often very unpredictable, also like the situation that sister Zareen brought up at her university.

I would not criticize anyone for using their own knowledge plus common sense to try and deal with a difficult and fluid situation. I don't believe it is a good idea to accept invitations to events where you think people might be drinking, but the sister didn't know there would be drinking at the time she accepted the invitation. Many people don't expect people to be drinking at a children's birthday party or other events where children are the primary focus like childrens sporting events, recitals, etc. I think that is a reasonable expectation, especially in the region of the country where she lives.

BTW, I think she was only asking for opinions of scholars, not personal opinions. My marjaa is Sayyid Muhammed Hussein Fadlallah(ra) and his ruling is that you cannot sit at the same table as people who are drinking and also that you are not allowed to enter a place(like a pub, bar, or dance club) whose major activity is serving and drinking alchohol and where other haram activities, corruption, immorality is taking place. The second part of this ruling does not extend to social events where you have a reasonable expectation that there will not be drinking(and then drinking does occur). There is also an exception for blood relatives. There is also an exception for sitting with someone who is drinking. That is if the person drinking is your mother or father (only) and they will not sit with you unless they are drinking. Then you are not allowed to cut off relations with them because of the alcohol only (although obviously you are not allowed to drink with them, lol). Islam has very strict rules regarding alcohol but also places a very high value on maintaining family relationships. In exceptional cases, these two conflict.

Edited by Abu Hadi

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