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In the Name of God بسم الله

Usolism/Akhbarism/Shaikhism - 3 Twelver Sects

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1 - Ignorance in key areas defined by Allah as mandatory knowledge

So a person with a few years of knowledge seems to be knowledgeable in this 'mandatory knowledge' but the marjas with decades of knowledge have no clue about it? :wacko: ok can you enlighten me on what is this mandatory knowledge and how it is relevant to ijtehad and if there is any order from the Imam (as) that the person who you follow should have this 'mandatory knowledge'.

2 - inconsistencies and divisions.

You might have some advanced argument about it but to my limited knowledge this argument is not valid or even strong enough to disprove marjiyyat.

Scholars all around the world have differences. Thats nothing new. Early scholars had differences and so do todays scholars.

And can you give me an example of inconsistencies?

Edited by dingdong
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There is no problem whatsoever in asking your marja anything at all including the methods of ijtehad and all. But is asking for proof necessary? Is there not something called trust?

If I ask them, they will give me the reply in ijtehadi language like about the narrators and all that which I will have a hard time comprehending.

There is constant revision of what is right and what is wrong. My asking them is useless (even though theres nothing wrong in trying) because the dimensions of my questioning will be limited, the marjas wil be light years ahead of me in terms of efficiency and accuracy. My questions will be like baby questions to them and with the decades of knowledge they have, they will have already questioned themselves all those things I will ask. Practically speaking its useless.

Yes they are fallible but with the decades of knowledge they have, the volumes of books and resources they ahve available, the environment in which they live, the scholars with whom they interact, etc all make them my best chance at knowing best what Islam says.

Not sure what you mean by constant reviews of right or wrong???

Wheter your questions are limited or if they have been asked before or babyish etc is of no matter, you need to understand your beliefs.. 'IF' there is something you do not understand then keep asking until you understand. I can not see why Marjae's would have issues answering simple questions so knock yourself out with them.

It is always your job to ask for proof! They don't always agree on certain issues so if something is your belief then atleast you should be able to back it up!

The search for knowledge and asking questions is never useless brother.

Decades of knowledge doesn't guarantee they are right! Isn't it better if you are content that you find yourself agreeing with what they say? I may be wrong but Isn't that the point of tauzi? YOU find which one is best for you? Doesn't asking them further extend the same principle?

I have purposefuly kept this away from the taqleed argument and this is about seeking knowledge from the people your own Marjaes. Don't forget if you did Ayotulla Fadlullah's taqleed, you would now not believe the chadors were snatched from the Bibi's (sa) on Ashura. If he was your Marjae then wouldn't you atleast like to know why he has stated such? You're the one that's going to believe it.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

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Are marjas not limited in their knowledge?

Even imams are limited in their knowledge. Only Allah is the infinity of knowledge.

We shall be judged by what we understand, not by what our superiors do.

Ok but arent the marjas the most reliable folk? Why should you follow what your knowledge says and why not the marjas knowledge? Does the average Muslim even have any knowledge at all on proper ijtehad? I doubt it. Is there any hadith which says we shouldnt follow someone else's opinion rather our own? The Quran does say as far as I remember to turn to the knowledgeable ones.

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Brother macisaac,

It seems to me the deen you follow is limited to Arab scholars and Arabic language? 'Sub-continent' is a term that I see poping up as if to say 'oh them lot' for an easily dismissive argument.

In another thread someone claimed a Ahadeeth was fabricated, when I asked the brother to prove it was fabricated then suddenly an 'allegation' of me being from the sub-continent arose.

I am not from the sub-continent but really do not understand how people apply the racist and elitist arguments into Islam? I am sure you you do not mean to potray such an image in your messages but it is there.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

I don't think Br MacIsaac was trying to be racist.

I believe what he was trying to say is that there is a difference between 'akbhari/usooli scholarship' and 'akhbarism' as a religious-cultural movement, and some people are mixing them up here.

'Akhbari/usooli scholarship' was a difference in how to interpret religion and was an issue a couple hundred years ago among scholarly circles at the hawzah. Nowdays there are not many scholars who take the 'akhbari' approach but there are a couple.

'Akbharism' as is being discussed here is a religious-cultural group primarily in the Indian Subcontinent.

To illustrate the difference, I'm sure no one would have called Allamah Hilli a 'Malang'

Hope that clarifies

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I don't think Br MacIsaac was trying to be racist.

'Akbharism' as is being discussed here is a religious-cultural group primarily in the Indian Subcontinent.

To illustrate the difference, I'm sure no one would have called Allamah Hilli a 'Malang'

Hope that clarifies

Yes, Allama Hilli wasnt from the sub-continent... is that what you mean?

Ok but arent the marjas the most reliable folk? Why should you follow what your knowledge says and why not the marjas knowledge? Does the average Muslim even have any knowledge at all on proper ijtehad? I doubt it. Is there any hadith which says we shouldnt follow someone else's opinion rather our own? The Quran does say as far as I remember to turn to the knowledgeable ones.

They are not as reliable as Imams, and Imam Mahdi is alive... and if we need help we can get it from living beings like Khizr as and other more holier beings

since Imam Mahdi hasnt arrived as yet, it goes to show that he doesnt feel the need that we need extra help other than our natural conscience and brain bestowed upon us by the Almighty God.

Did you ever hear about Imam Ali as.gif's Salooni Salooni? Limited knowledge my foot!'

He wasn't the source. He was only the gateway to the source.

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Stop being silly now! If Imam Ali (as) possesed infinite knowledge to be the gateway or would you argue otherwise just to try degrading the status of the Aima Masomeen (as)?

Allah is Creator, Khaliq and Fashioner. He created everything from nothingness whitout any tool or help. He gave everything their shape and form, measure, direction and purpouse. He shaped eveything perfectly and gave everything purpouse in harmonic manner.

Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) has knowledge about everything between heavens and earth. His knowledge is not infinite, but it contains everything that have being, is and will be. He know all who will be in hell and all who will be in heaven. His knowledge is everything that is throne of Allah.

I will give you precise hadith from al-Kafi, ens Allah, if I found it today.

H 491, Ch. 11, h 6

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja'far from abu al-Hassan Musa (a.s.) who has said the following. "Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshipped. Had we not been in existence Allah would have been worshipped."

http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/p.php?p=hadith&url=Intro.

Edited by Ali Askari
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The 3 sects of Jaffari (Twelver) Shia Islam are as follows:

1) Usolism (does taqleed to a specific marja therefore he/she follows him in matters of faith)

2) Akhbarism (does taqleed to Imam Mehdi (as) therefore he/she follows strictly traditions of Ahlulbayt (as))

3) Shaikhism (does taqleed to Sayyed Mousavi therefore he/she follows him in matters of faith)

You know, I wanted to ask but I got sidetracked by the marja' debate...

Why do you consider 'Shaikhism' a sect of Ithna Ashari Shi'ism? It is generally agreed to have been a heretical deviation that preceded the Bahai splitoff, and all Muslims agree that Bahais are NOT Muslims and formed their own religion. The only people really interested in 'Shaikhi' ideas are Bahais who hold the same ideology.

Are you Bahai?

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Allah is Creator, Khaliq and Fashioner. He created everything from nothingness whitout any tool or help. He gave everything their shape and form, measure, direction and purpouse. He shaped eveything perfectly and gave everything purpouse in harmonic manner.

Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) has knowledge about everything between heavens and earth. His knowledge is not infinite, but it contains everything that have being, is and will be. He know all who will be in hell and all who will be in heaven. His knowledge is everything that is throne of Allah.

I will give you precise hadith from al-Kafi, ens Allah, if I found it today.

H 491, Ch. 11, h 6

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja'far from abu al-Hassan Musa (a.s.) who has said the following. "Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshipped. Had we not been in existence Allah would have been worshipped."

http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/p.php?p=hadith&url=Intro.

Brother Askari, the user may not even be Shia!

I'm not sure but we should ascertain that as a fundation.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

You know, I wanted to ask but I got sidetracked by the marja' debate...

Why do you consider 'Shaikhism' a sect of Ithna Ashari Shi'ism? It is generally agreed to have been a heretical deviation that preceded the Bahai splitoff, and all Muslims agree that Bahais are NOT Muslims and formed their own religion. The only people really interested in 'Shaikhi' ideas are Bahais who hold the same ideology.

Are you Bahai?

Another sect now? Where did Bahai's come from?

Who are they and what are their beliefs?

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

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Nastynas,

ahá'u'lláh (ba-haa-ol-laa Arabic: ÈåÇÁ Çááå "Glory of God") (November 12, 1817 – May 29, 1892), born Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Nuri (Persian: ãیÑÒÇ ÍÓیäÚáی äæÑی), was the founder of the Bahá'í Faith.

He claimed to be the prophetic fulfillment of Bábism, a 19th-century outgrowth of Shí‘ism, but in a broader sense claimed to be a "supreme Manifestation of God",[1] referring to the fulfillment of the eschatological expectations of Islam, Christianity, and other major religions. Bahá'ís see Bahá'u'lláh as the initiator of a new religion, as Buddha or Muhammad — but also the initiator of a new cycle, like that attributed to Adam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith

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Here it is.

H 679, Ch. 48, h 2

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sinan from Yunus ibn Ya‘qub from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah and a group of our people, among whom were ‘Abd al-A‘la’, abu ‘Ubaydah and ‘Abdallah ibn Bishr al-Khath‘ami, who have said that they heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there." The narrator has said that the Imam (a.s.) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he (a.s.) said, "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things.

http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/books/hadi.../part4-ch48.htm

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H 491, Ch. 11, h 6

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja'far from abu al-Hassan Musa (a.s.) who has said the following. "Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshipped. Had we not been in existence Allah would have been worshipped."

http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/p.php?p=hadith&url=Intro.

I think the chain is problematic esp. Sahl b. Ziyad

Óåá ÈÛíÑ íÇÁ ÇÈä ÒíÇÏ ÇáÇÏãì ÇáÑÇÒí íßäì ÇÈÇ ÓÚíÏ ãä ÇÕÍÇÈ ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ÇáËÇáË Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÇÎÊáÝ Þæá ÇáÔíÎ ÇáØæÓí ÑÍãå Çááå Ýíå ÝÞÇá Ýí ãæÖÚ Çäå ËÞÉ æÞÇá Ýí ÚÏÉ ãæÇÖÚ Çäå ÖÚíÝ.

æÞÇá ÇáäÌÇÔí Çäå ÖÚíÝ Ýí ÇáÍÏíË ÛíÑ ãÚÊãÏ Ýíå æßÇä ÇÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì íÔåÏ Úáíå ÈÇáÛáæ æÇáßÐÈ æÇÎÑÌå ãä Þã Åáì ÇáÑí æßÇä íÓßäåÇ æÞÏ ßÇÊÈ ÇÈÇ ãÍãÏ ÇáÚÓßÑí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Úáì íÏ ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÚØÇÑ ÇáãäÊÕÝ ãä ÔåÑ ÑÈíÚ ÇáÇÎÑ ÓäÉ ÎãÓ æÎãÓíä æãÇÆÊíä ÐßÑ Ðáß ÃÍãÏ Èä Úáì Èä äæÍ æÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÑÍãåãÇ Çááå

æÞÇá ÇÈä ÇáÛÖÇíÑí: Çäå ßÇä ÖÚíÝÇ " ÌÏÇ " ÝÇÓÏ ÇáÑæÇíÉ æÇáãÐåÈ æßÇä ÇÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì ÇáÇÔÚÑí ÇÎÑÌå Úä Þã æÇÙåÑ ÇáÈÑÇÁÉ ãäå æäåì ÇáäÇÓ Úä ÇáÓãÇÚ ãäå æÇáÑæÇíÉ æíÑæì ÇáãÑÃÓíá æíÚÊãÏ ÇáãÌÇåíá

w/s

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Akhbaris do not need to read the works of any scholar but rather the authenticated compilations of traditons like Usool Al-Kafi, Bihar Al-Anwar, etc. If we have any questions, we would ask our scholars for clearification. It is important to note that our scholars ONLY NARRATE (TRANSMIT) TRADITIONS.

Imam Mehdi (as) says:

"As for any events that may occur, refer to the transmitters of our traditions"

What about jurisprudential affairs of our lifetime ? What happens when there is a serious issue which needs to be addressed but there is no specific narration of Masumeen - Rather, we only have principles deduced from the teachings of Masumeen. If we present 'ihtiyat' as the only answer, I would like to say that Ihtiyat is beneficial but not practical in all circumstances. So if we are only going to use the formula of ihtiyat, we are limiting deen of our Prophet P.b.u.H to His times or to the times of Imams whereas our religion is pretty much declared to be the only source of guidance till qayamah.

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I think the chain is problematic esp. Sahl b. Ziyad

Óåá ÈÛíÑ íÇÁ ÇÈä ÒíÇÏ ÇáÇÏãì ÇáÑÇÒí íßäì ÇÈÇ ÓÚíÏ ãä ÇÕÍÇÈ ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ÇáËÇáË Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÇÎÊáÝ Þæá ÇáÔíÎ ÇáØæÓí ÑÍãå Çááå Ýíå ÝÞÇá Ýí ãæÖÚ Çäå ËÞÉ æÞÇá Ýí ÚÏÉ ãæÇÖÚ Çäå ÖÚíÝ.

æÞÇá ÇáäÌÇÔí Çäå ÖÚíÝ Ýí ÇáÍÏíË ÛíÑ ãÚÊãÏ Ýíå æßÇä ÇÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì íÔåÏ Úáíå ÈÇáÛáæ æÇáßÐÈ æÇÎÑÌå ãä Þã Åáì ÇáÑí æßÇä íÓßäåÇ æÞÏ ßÇÊÈ ÇÈÇ ãÍãÏ ÇáÚÓßÑí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Úáì íÏ ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÚØÇÑ ÇáãäÊÕÝ ãä ÔåÑ ÑÈíÚ ÇáÇÎÑ ÓäÉ ÎãÓ æÎãÓíä æãÇÆÊíä ÐßÑ Ðáß ÃÍãÏ Èä Úáì Èä äæÍ æÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÑÍãåãÇ Çááå

æÞÇá ÇÈä ÇáÛÖÇíÑí: Çäå ßÇä ÖÚíÝÇ " ÌÏÇ " ÝÇÓÏ ÇáÑæÇíÉ æÇáãÐåÈ æßÇä ÇÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì ÇáÇÔÚÑí ÇÎÑÌå Úä Þã æÇÙåÑ ÇáÈÑÇÁÉ ãäå æäåì ÇáäÇÓ Úä ÇáÓãÇÚ ãäå æÇáÑæÇíÉ æíÑæì ÇáãÑÃÓíá æíÚÊãÏ ÇáãÌÇåíá

w/s

The chain may be problematic, as per the opinion of certain fallibles, but the content seems to be fine and in agreement with many narrations available in shia text.

Salams

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Here it is.

H 679, Ch. 48, h 2

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sinan from Yunus ibn Ya‘qub from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah and a group of our people, among whom were ‘Abd al-A‘la’, abu ‘Ubaydah and ‘Abdallah ibn Bishr al-Khath‘ami, who have said that they heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there." The narrator has said that the Imam (a.s.) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he (a.s.) said, "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things.

http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/books/hadi.../part4-ch48.htm

This narration is daif a/c to Majlisi.

w/s

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Why do you say its weak?

A/c to Majlisi it is weak. May be b/c of Muhammad b. Sinan in the chain. . .

ÚöÏøóÉñ ãöäú ÃóÕúÍóÇÈöäóÇ Úóäú ÃóÍúãóÏó Èúäö ãõÍóãøóÏò Úóäú ãõÍóãøóÏö Èúäö ÓöäóÇäò Úóäú íõæäõÓó Èúäö íóÚúÞõæÈó Úóäö ÇáúÍóÇÑöËö Èúäö ÇáúãõÛöíÑóÉö æó ÚöÏøóÉò ãöäú ÃóÕúÍóÇÈöäóÇ ãöäúåõãú ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáúÃóÚúáóì æó ÃóÈõæ ÚõÈóíúÏóÉó æó ÚóÈúÏõ Çááøóåö Èúäõ ÈöÔúÑò ÇáúÎóËúÚóãöíøõ ÓóãöÚõæÇ ÃóÈóÇ ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã )

To add to brother Askari's question, is there only 1 Marjae that believes it is weak or are there any others that believe that too?

I don't know. I know of only two sharah of al-Kafi [Majlisi & Behbudi]. It is not authentic a/c of both.

w/s

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Ok. Thank you.

Why do you say its weak?

my brother they call it weak because they hate anything that speaks of the beauty of the Imams aleihe salam........ yet they will call a hadith authentic if it speaks in praise of the 3.... astaghfirullah!

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This narration is daif a/c to Majlisi.

w/s

A/c to Majlisi it is weak. May be b/c of Muhammad b. Sinan in the chain. . .

ÚöÏøóÉñ ãöäú ÃóÕúÍóÇÈöäóÇ Úóäú ÃóÍúãóÏó Èúäö ãõÍóãøóÏò Úóäú ãõÍóãøóÏö Èúäö ÓöäóÇäò Úóäú íõæäõÓó Èúäö íóÚúÞõæÈó Úóäö ÇáúÍóÇÑöËö Èúäö ÇáúãõÛöíÑóÉö æó ÚöÏøóÉò ãöäú ÃóÕúÍóÇÈöäóÇ ãöäúåõãú ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáúÃóÚúáóì æó ÃóÈõæ ÚõÈóíúÏóÉó æó ÚóÈúÏõ Çááøóåö Èúäõ ÈöÔúÑò ÇáúÎóËúÚóãöíøõ ÓóãöÚõæÇ ÃóÈóÇ ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã )

But bro, are we definite that Allama Majlisi considered the content of this narration 'weak' ? Afterall He is the compiler of a volume dedicated to the superiority of Imams over other Prophets. (Major Ghulv according to some scholars). Many of His compilations suggest a far higher status than what has been described in this particular narration. Knowing what is in paradise or hell, is what I expect my divine leaders to know. Don't you ? Afterall our very first Imam is reported to have said, " Ask questions regarding anything lest I am not amongst you"

Salams

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Brother macisaac,

It seems to me the deen you follow is limited to Arab scholars and Arabic language? 'Sub-continent' is a term that I see poping up as if to say 'oh them lot' for an easily dismissive argument.

In another thread someone claimed a Ahadeeth was fabricated, when I asked the brother to prove it was fabricated then suddenly an 'allegation' of me being from the sub-continent arose.

I am not from the sub-continent but really do not understand how people apply the racist and elitist arguments into Islam? I am sure you you do not mean to potray such an image in your messages but it is there.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

The people behind these sites claim to be the true representatives of Islam. Needless to say, it would be rather strange that the true representatives of Islam would be concentrated in a place where meaningful understanding of the language of the Qu'ran and the words of the aimmah (i.e. the sources of the religion) is rare.

As was explained to you when you tried to pull this "racism" BS in the other thread, Islam is not an Arabic religion, but the main texts are in Arabic and you can't expect to have deep understanding of Qu'ran and ahadith or even the secondary literature without some proficiency in Arabic.

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The people behind these sites claim to be the true representatives of Islam. Needless to say, it would be rather strange that the true representatives of Islam would be concentrated in a place where meaningful understanding of the language of the Qu'ran and the words of the aimmah (i.e. the sources of the religion) is rare.

As was explained to you when you tried to pull this "racism" BS in the other thread, Islam is not an Arabic religion, but the main texts are in Arabic and you can't expect to have deep understanding of Qu'ran and ahadith or even the secondary literature without some proficiency in Arabic.

The people behind these sites have absolutely NOTHING to do with me! Neither has your claims. Also have you ever posted without using swear words?

I am not going to bother replying to you nonsense. Your continued use of dereogatory and inflammatory language is getting tiresome. I will not entertain you with another reply.

As was explained to YOU in the other thread I do not wish to speak to you! If you wish to speak to me further then please learn some manners first!

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

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I do agree with kadhim in that without knowledge of the arabic language one cannot truely understand the texts.... and all the texts are in arabic, there is no translation which helps..... one has to understand arabic to truely know......

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The people behind these sites have absolutely NOTHING to do with me! Neither has your claims. Also have you ever posted without using swear words?

I am not going to bother replying to you nonsense. Your continued use of dereogatory and inflammatory language is getting tiresome. I will not entertain you with another reply.

As was explained to YOU in the other thread I do not wish to speak to you! If you wish to speak to me further then please learn some manners first!

Ya Ali (as) Madad.

Hallucinate much? There is no "swear word" in my post. And you are the one falsely labeling someone a racist. Your entire presence on this site has consisted of language meant to provoke, inflame, and denigrate. You misstate your intentions, and then feign righteous indignation when you're caught. Honestly the whole act is wearing kind of thin.

By the way, if you're trying to covertly disrupt a website with trolling, it's usually not productive to call in a half dozen of your compatriots in a coordinated, simultaneous attack campaign. It kind of tips the hand a little too obviously as to what is going on.

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Salam,

i want to confirm whether this site is usooli shia site or is it a shia site where all forms of ithna ashris are invited?

it is an usooli site where others can also come...... but the main teahcing is always usooli..... it is only at times the others get tired of it and speak... but this is nto normal.....

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