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prtyich

The mullahs' end is near

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Your view of people who have "converted" (I prefer the term reverted) to Islam is not suprising given the rest of your ill informed statements.

Another one of the "you disagree so you are ignorant" posters.

What is most revealing about your criticism is that you abhore the lack of "wealthy investment bankers" in the revert community. If their is an absence of these individuals (and I'm not sure they are absent in the first place) it may be due to the fact that the majority (but not all) of "wealthy investment bankers" are much more interested in spending their time increasing their wealth then exploring the nature of truth, religion and other such "non value added" endevors.

Glad to see you like to generalize, as if all people of wealth are focused on exclusively that, and nothing else.

I agree their were Arab invasions; but even western scholars say the Umayyads wanted to tax people and actually discouraged conversion in many instances. Most people that became Muslim did it by choice. Also there are no examples of what was done by white european Christians in America! One example the Mughal Empire in India is often cited by orientalist enemies of Islam. People claim that the hindus were allegedly oppressed; yet we see that there are still around 1 billion Hindus in the world today (almost all in India)! Also most Indians (including hindus) would agree that the Muslim king Akbar the Great is one of the greatest Indian leaders ever.

In response to this post, and shia engineer's request of a muslim massacre, here's a start:

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-6.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m128...i_80099512/pg_2

Edited by prtyich

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Could I have concrete historical examples please of "slaughtering millions" and "forcing millions to convert"?

Hi Shia Engineer. I posted a few above...

Find the chapter/verse, then click on "Pooya Commentary" to read an analysis. I read your site so now you have to read mine. It's only fair, right?

Indeed. I checked out the site, and only located sura, without commentary. The site was sluggish, perhaps it was under the water a bit?

Chemistry and algebra, for example were developed by Muslims.

Wellll.....algebra was actually developed in India, and brought back to the middle east by arab traders...

It is a combination of Western colonialism and propagation of tyrants in the Middle East and the lack of action among many Muslims themselves that is leading to the decline of living for Muslim societies. To put this whole thing on Islam itself is downright foolish and unsubstantiated by any credible evidence.

Islam is the one unifying thread across so many of the 57 muslim nations, and is consistently used to prevent liberal thought and reformation, just as the Catholic Church did in Europe for so long. Islam isn't the first to do this, its just the most recent and obvious example.

So "religion" and "modernization" are antagonists to one another? Please explain.

You might get a laugh, and certainly no insult intended, but an example that comes to mind of how religion and modernization don't mix was in the original Planet of the Apes movie. Dr. Zeus is both Minister of Science in charge of advancing ape knowledge, and also as Chief Defender of the Faith. The movie shows how the 2 are completely incompatible.

And could you also please give me a definition of "modern" please? If I am wrong, then I am the fool and not you. Simple as that.

You are neither wrong nor a fool, just taught incorrectly. By modern I refer to an open line of thought, accepting scientific/secular/socratic lines of reasoning, that all people have a right to life, liberty and the chance to pursue happiness. Sound familiar?

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Hi Shia Engineer. I posted a few above...

Nobody is arguing that Muslims have not commited crimes before. However, what I am saying is that such atrocities are not at such the grand scale you suggest (compared to Christianity at least), and to pin anything down as somehow accepted actions justified by Islamic teachings is downright ridiculous. What Islam says, not necessarily what Muslims do, is what I am really more concerned about. And I dare anybody to challenge that aspect without taking Qur'an verses out of context or using fabricated Sunni hadiths to prove their point.

Indeed. I checked out the site, and only located sura, without commentary. The site was sluggish, perhaps it was under the water a bit?

Click on the box that says "Pooya Commentary" along with the Surah and get an English translation too. I have checked it, it works.

Wellll.....algebra was actually developed in India, and brought back to the middle east by arab traders...

Many people from many different civilizations piece together many aspects of science, and the Islamic civilization has more than its fair share of contributions. Just go to Wikipedia and type in "Islamic science" or "Islamic mathematics", and see what you find. I think you will be impressed of how much the West today really owes to Islamic science but fails to give proper credit for. The West has the Islamic empire to thank for giving it the tools it needed to go through the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

Islam is the one unifying thread across so many of the 57 muslim nations, and is consistently used to prevent liberal thought and reformation, just as the Catholic Church did in Europe for so long. Islam isn't the first to do this, its just the most recent and obvious example.

Islam is not Christianity. You can't just put all religions together and say they are the same and follow the same course of events. What do you mean by "liberal thought" and "reformation"? Islam has survived and continues to have a substantial presence in these countries while Western countries have rejected religion and are increasingly secularizing. There must be something good or preferable about Islam that people like are not wanting to give up?

You might get a laugh, and certainly no insult intended, but an example that comes to mind of how religion and modernization don't mix was in the original Planet of the Apes movie. Dr. Zeus is both Minister of Science in charge of advancing ape knowledge, and also as Chief Defender of the Faith. The movie shows how the 2 are completely incompatible.

Not really....

You are neither wrong nor a fool, just taught incorrectly. By modern I refer to an open line of thought, accepting scientific/secular/socratic lines of reasoning, that all people have a right to life, liberty and the chance to pursue happiness. Sound familiar?

Ok, so how does the whole aspect of believing in God play into this? Or does someone have to reject God in order to get "life, liberty and the chance to pursue happiness"? This of course applies to this world only, and tells me nothing about how I will be after I leave this world. Can scientific/secular/socratic lines of reasoning explain this to me? If not, then why should I accept it? And who decided that this was "modern"?

But you still didn't answer my question. Can I believe in Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) and still be "modern" according to your definition? Would I have to give up my beliefs entirely or would I simply have to water it down to reach an acceptable point? And if I do, what "liberties" will I gain? Will I have lost anything?

I really need concrete answers to these if would ever to accept your line of reasoning.

Edited by Shia Engineer

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Hi Shia Engineer. I posted a few above...

Indeed. I checked out the site, and only located sura, without commentary. The site was sluggish, perhaps it was under the water a bit?

Wellll.....algebra was actually developed in India, and brought back to the middle east by arab traders...

Islam is the one unifying thread across so many of the 57 muslim nations, and is consistently used to prevent liberal thought and reformation, just as the Catholic Church did in Europe for so long. Islam isn't the first to do this, its just the most recent and obvious example.

You might get a laugh, and certainly no insult intended, but an example that comes to mind of how religion and modernization don't mix was in the original Planet of the Apes movie. Dr. Zeus is both Minister of Science in charge of advancing ape knowledge, and also as Chief Defender of the Faith. The movie shows how the 2 are completely incompatible.

You are neither wrong nor a fool, just taught incorrectly. By modern I refer to an open line of thought, accepting scientific/secular/socratic lines of reasoning, that all people have a right to life, liberty and the chance to pursue happiness. Sound familiar?

Regarding some of your claims:

Arab Muslims further developed and added their own things onto Indian and Greek works. Without the work of Arab and Persian Muslims their never could've been a European Renaissance as the translation of these works by western monks and scholars from Arabic into European language spurred the secuarlist anti-christianity European Renaissance.

Regarding your claims about Muslim nations. Since the time of western colonialism; secuarlism has dominated most so-called "Arab" or "Muslim" nations. For example see examples:

-Gamal Abdul-Nasser in Egypt in 1950s-1960s was a secular Socialist dictator who actively oppressed Muslim leaders especially from the Ikhwan or Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

-The PLO led throught 1970s to early 2000s by Yasser Arafat. Was a largely secuarlist Palestinian nationalist organization that was devoted to pan-Arabism and Socialist ideologies.

-The Americans supported the Baathist secularist regime of Saddam(la) in Iraq throughout much of the 1980s and 1990s. It was only when Saddam(la) invaded the mini western colony like nation of Kuwait that the Americans turned against their Socialist Baathist ally Saddam(la) that they had so heavily and completely supported in illegal war he (demon pig scum saddam) started against Iran: in the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s.

-Syria is still officially ruled by the Baathist regime of Syria. Althought the Syrian Baath party was an enemy of the Iraqi Baath party of saddam(la) it shared some important tenets with Iraqi Baath: those of secularism, Socialism, and pan-Arabism.

-Lebanon was ruled for a long time by Western imperialist supported Maronite Christian secularists.

many more examples could be brought.

Now think of 2 examples showing Islam leads to victory:

-Hizbollah in Lebanon. Before the creation of the Amal movement in Lebanon by Imam Musa al-Sadr(ra); the Shi'a Muslims of Lebanon largely suffered under the tyranny of Western supported Maronite Christian dictators and their largely secularist Lebanese Sunni allies. The blessed Mujahideen movement of Hizbollah in Lebanon came out of the Amal movement. Hizbollah has turned the Shi'a Muslims of Lebanon (and chiefly South Lebanon) into a political, monetary, and military force. Hizbollah forced the zionist "israelis" to retreat from most of Occupied South Lebanon in 2000. Then in 2006 Hizbollah defeated the American supplied zionist "israeli" military considered the "strongest in the region and one of the strongest in the world". All the American supplied zionist "israeli" military could do was conduct careless air raids against the civilian portions of Lebanon. It is well known that most Hizbollah fighters went into military positions in the mountains and whenever zionist "israeli" ground forces tried to advance on the ground into South Lebanon the guerilla fighter of Hizbollah beat them back and inflicted heavy casualites (in both soliders and equipment) on the zionist "israeli" ground forces. Also Insha Allah Hizbollah is now obtaining good anti-aircraft equipment and could deploy this in any future conflict.

-The other example is that of the brave Islamic Mujahideen nation: that is the Islamic Republic of Iran. Iran has always been a powerful nation; but the people of Iran united in 1979 to overthrow the dictator shah pehlavi(la) that was stealing the wealth of the Iranian people and giving away the oil to the West. Just see how shah pehlavi(la) was put in power, in 1953 Operation Ajax by the American CIA and British MI6 in clear western state terrorism. Today, Iran is a growing superpower, Insha Allah. Iran is strong, despite having to face evil American and zionist "israeli" sanctions. Yet Iran is able to work and build it's economy via nations that have had it with American government idiocy: like Russia, India, China, etc.

Iran also has one of the strongest militaries in the world and in the Middle Eastern region. This is admitted even by American colonialist military officials.

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Nobody is arguing that Muslims have not commited crimes before.

The other posters did.

However, what I am saying is that such atrocities are not at such the grand scale you suggest (compared to Christianity at least), and to pin anything down as somehow accepted actions justified by Islamic teachings is downright ridiculous.

Muslims have committed massive massacres over the past 1,400 years, wiping out entire tribes of people. I think you knew that...

What Islam says, not necessarily what Muslims do, is what I am really more concerned about. And I dare anybody to challenge that aspect without taking Qur'an verses out of context or using fabricated Sunni hadiths to prove their point.

On the other hand, I am more concerned with what so many muslims DO, and why so many cite the Koran when they commit unthinkable crimes.

Many people from many different civilizations piece together many aspects of science, and the Islamic civilization has more than its fair share of contributions.

Centuries ago, Islam was a much more vibrant and creative source of invention, but it has for a very long time grown stale and dead as a culture, which is why the immigration is out of the muslim countries en masse.

Islam is not Christianity. You can't just put all religions together and say they are the same and follow the same course of events. What do you mean by "liberal thought" and "reformation"? Islam has survived and continues to have a substantial presence in these countries while Western countries have rejected religion and are increasingly secularizing. There must be something good or preferable about Islam that people like are not wanting to give up?

Perhaps the fact that muslims in Western nations are living within closed communities, and do not mix with outsiders, so they aren't readily aware of what the rest of their country is even like.

Ok, so how does the whole aspect of believing in God play into this? Or does someone have to reject God in order to get "life, liberty and the chance to pursue happiness"?

A person can practice their connection to God in their own home as they choose, it is not something that should be integrated with the operation and adminstration of the government.

This of course applies to this world only, and tells me nothing about how I will be after I leave this world. Can scientific/secular/socratic lines of reasoning explain this to me?

Some can. Some people believe there is no "after-life" as the 3 major world religions consider. The fact that no human knows for sure leaves it up for debate, and is a strong indicator of why noone should be compelled to believe one way or the other. One of the most frustrating aspects of many organized major religions is how important it is for one of the very orthodox to "convince" others that they should accept and embrace their way of thinking.

If their method of thought is so righteous and justifiable, then it would stand up well on its own, and would attract believers/converts. This is an area where Islam fails, where there is doctrine about giving "unbelievers the choice to convert or be killed," as I understand it. If the religion was so perfect, why would force be needed to convince someone?

If not, then why should I accept it? And who decided that this was "modern"?

That is the point, isn't it? Why should you accept it? But the real question is not whether you do accept secular thought, but that other secular people won't force you to do so, they will merely socratically present their evidence, and leave it up to you. Islam does not operate this way, and has applied violence to convert for centuries. Not to get into a pissing contest between religions, but this is an area Judaism has right, where it is actually against the religion to proselytize...

But you still didn't answer my question. Can I believe in Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) and still be "modern" according to your definition?

You can still be Islamic if you do not practice Islam politically, but only as a religion, at home, or in the mosque privately. Can you doubt that if Muslims become the majority in Europe or the US, they will endeavor to change the political system, and eliminate civil rights and liberties? Christians and Jews can maintain societies devoid of religious control of governments, clearly muslims seem to be unable to do so - except in Turkey, where the military has used and needed force to retain a rigorous secular society, but is crumbling as we write.

Would I have to give up my beliefs entirely or would I simply have to water it down to reach an acceptable point? And if I do, what "liberties" will I gain? Will I have lost anything?

You can practice your religion to the limit you desire, so long as you do not try to forcibly convert others, or try to apply your religious principles to the rule of law.

Edited by prtyich

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The other posters did.

Muslims have committed massive massacres over the past 1,400 years, wiping out entire tribes of people. I think you knew that...

On the other hand, I am more concerned with what so many muslims DO, and why so many cite the Koran when they commit unthinkable crimes.

Centuries ago, Islam was a much more vibrant and creative source of invention, but it has for a very long time grown stale and dead as a culture, which is why the immigration is out of the muslim countries en masse.

Perhaps the fact that muslims in Western nations are living within closed communities, and do not mix with outsiders, so they aren't readily aware of what the rest of their country is even like.

A person can practice their connection to God in their own home as they choose, it is not something that should be integrated with the operation and adminstration of the government.

Some can. Some people believe there is no "after-life" as the 3 major world religions consider. The fact that no human knows for sure leaves it up for debate, and is a strong indicator of why noone should be compelled to believe one way or the other. One of the most frustrating aspects of many organized major religions is how important it is for one of the very orthodox to "convince" others that they should accept and embrace their way of thinking.

If their method of thought is so righteous and justifiable, then it would stand up well on its own, and would attract believers/converts. This is an area where Islam fails, where there is doctrine about giving "unbelievers the choice to convert or be killed," as I understand it. If the religion was so perfect, why would force be needed to convince someone?

That is the point, isn't it? Why should you accept it? But the real question is not whether you do accept secular thought, but that other secular people won't force you to do so, they will merely socratically present their evidence, and leave it up to you. Islam does not operate this way, and has applied violence to convert for centuries. Not to get into a pissing contest between religions, but this is an area Judaism has right, where it is actually against the religion to proselytize...

You can still be Islamic if you do not practice Islam politically, but only as a religion, at home, or in the mosque privately. Can you doubt that if Muslims become the majority in Europe or the US, they will endeavor to change the political system, and eliminate civil rights and liberties? Christians and Jews can maintain societies devoid of religious control of governments, clearly muslims seem to be unable to do so - except in Turkey, where the military has used and needed force to retain a rigorous secular society, but is crumbling as we write.

You can practice your religion to the limit you desire, so long as you do not try to forcibly convert others, or try to apply your religious principles to the rule of law.

Islam never killed "tribes" of people as you allege! A true example of this is the Native Americans in "america" again 100+ million Natives killed to the point were 99.999% of the Native Americans were wiped out. There used to be a nation of Native Americans that were almost entirely wiped out. Compare this to an example, India, there are still around 1 billion hindus alive and well today in India.

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The other posters did.

No, they are defending smear attacks obviously pitted against Muslims to discredit them. We have the full right to defend ourselves.

Muslims have committed massive massacres over the past 1,400 years, wiping out entire tribes of people. I think you knew that...

Pure baseless propaganda that serves no purpose but to serve an agenda. It basically attacks Muslims as a diversion to try to attack Islam itself. Too smart to fall for it. Sorry.

On the other hand, I am more concerned with what so many muslims DO, and why so many cite the Koran when they commit unthinkable crimes.

And I am still waiting for you to read proper analysis of Qur'an verses from actual respected Shia ulema that state that crimes can be committed. We believe that the Qur'an is a complete and just book. We really take any criticism about it very seriously. Bring your proof if you are truthful.

Centuries ago, Islam was a much more vibrant and creative source of invention, but it has for a very long time grown stale and dead as a culture, which is why the immigration is out of the muslim countries en masse.

Western colonialism, pan-Arabism, Wahabbism, need I say more? It's just enemies outside and inside Islam that are succeeding and resulting in a decline in the living situation in Muslim countries. Which is why Islam must be defended. Pure Islam is perfect and is the truth, and worldly economic problems will not change that.

Perhaps the fact that muslims in Western nations are living within closed communities, and do not mix with outsiders, so they aren't readily aware of what the rest of their country is even like.

I am a Muslim and I live in the West and I mix with non-Muslims all the time as well as all my Muslim friends, so I don't agree with you. Try again.

A person can practice their connection to God in their own home as they choose, it is not something that should be integrated with the operation and adminstration of the government.

Essentially be religious in private but pretend to be an atheist in public. Again you are seeing the confrontation between the social and collectivist dynamic that Islam requires and Western individualism. And my belief is that an Islamic system is the only truly sustainable system of the two.

One of the most frustrating aspects of many organized major religions is how important it is for one of the very orthodox to "convince" others that they should accept and embrace their way of thinking.

The truth is the truth. You can convince others through evidence and good deeds, but you are not allowed to cross the line. I guess your experience with true religious people (and not fanatics who think they know what they are talking about) has been either scarce or non-existent. Go to the Reverts Forum here and ask the reverts what got them into religion. I think you will be surprised.

If their method of thought is so righteous and justifiable, then it would stand up well on its own, and would attract believers/converts. This is an area where Islam fails, where there is doctrine about giving "unbelievers the choice to convert or be killed," as I understand it. If the religion was so perfect, why would force be needed to convince someone?

I agree with you completely. If something is the truth, than it should be able to speak for itself and not have to rely on people to force it down other people. Anybody who does this for any religion is wrong and Islam condemns this unequivocally. Fortunately for me, Islam does speak for itself and has shown its perfection to me, and absolutely nobody forced me to accept this path. I chose it out of my own free will and I never was pressured by anybody. This is the only true way to accept a religion.

You must have either had bad experiences with Muslims or you have been reading biased media sources, because in Islam there is absolutely no compulsion in religion and nobody can make anybody do or believe anything.

God endows people with free will to choose their own path and conversions to Islam are only accepted if they are done out of free will. Case closed.

Islam has prevailed because of the power and perfection of its ideas and its resonance with a lot of people, and not because of force. The longer it takes for you to accept this dampens your credibility on the manner.

The truth is the truth. You can convince others through evidence and good deeds, but you are not allowed to cross the line. I guess your experience with true religious people (and not fanatics who think they know what they are talking about) has been either scarce or non-existent. Go to the Reverts Forum here and ask the reverts what got them into religion. I think you will be surprised.

That is the point, isn't it? Why should you accept it? But the real question is not whether you do accept secular thought, but that other secular people won't force you to do so, they will merely socratically present their evidence, and leave it up to you. Islam does not operate this way, and has applied violence to convert for centuries. Not to get into a pissing contest between religions, but this is an area Judaism has right, where it is actually against the religion to proselytize...

I am absolutely shocked you do not believe that Islam works the same way!

All of your posts seem to hold some held notion that Islam is a religion of fanatics that are actively using force and deception to take people to their side and who actively proselytize. This is farthest from the truth. Proper Islam is done through free will and through the rightful words and actions of believers in the proper way. True believers demonstrate the true power of the religion by following it properly. We present evidence (as I am trying to do now) and answer all questions the best we can, but that is the highest my responsibility goes. If anyone is actively trying to convert somebody through deceptive means, then these conversions are not legitimate and directly oppose Islam. Period.

You can still be Islamic if you do not practice Islam politically, but only as a religion, at home, or in the mosque privately. Can you doubt that if Muslims become the majority in Europe or the US, they will endeavor to change the political system, and eliminate civil rights and liberties? Christians and Jews can maintain societies devoid of religious control of governments, clearly muslims seem to be unable to do so - except in Turkey, where the military has used and needed force to retain a rigorous secular society, but is crumbling as we write.

I think you have just summarized the whole discussion here. Listen very carefully.

Religions are not just private acts of worship. They are a way of life for both individuals and society at large.

Islam is a social and not just a individual religion. Islam sets rules for society and humanity at large and are meant for collective law. And since we believe that Islam is the perfect system given to us by an absolute creator, this system is the best system (when lead by an infallible), and therefore is superior to all other social systems. . You can't just practice privately to be a Muslim, you must interact extensively with the whole ummah. Unlike in the West, religion and politics are one and the same, and that is the fundamental difference that I will not budge on.

I think you believe that secularism is a kind of a "neutral" system if you will, which means that since all systems are different and people can't agree on which is right, we must not let any of them take hold and instead compromise on this new kind of system under this umbrella that we will call "secularism'. But I ultimately believe secularism is itself a system that is subject to own inherent beliefs and sets of codes, and will never compromise all systems under one roof, because it is not a perfect system. Secularism must actively suppress religions in their purest forms which mean the induction of social policy, and reduce it only to individual worship, so that all systems can be under its roof. Unlike every other religion in the world, Islam is the only religion that has kept consistent with its teachings and has not tolerated this suppression by secularization. And I can see how secular people who want their system to prevail can't stand this.

Bottom Line: (I will not compromise on this)

Islam is the truth and the word of God and an absolute creator sent down a system through infalllible messengers for us to follow and emulate.

Of course not everyone agrees with this, and it takes people a long time to come down to this conclusion, but the evidence points to this truth, and it takes a truly open mind to figure this stuff out. And all of us are only beginning to see it. But reality is reality. Whether we want to see it or not is our own problem, and not a problem of the system itself.

so long as you do not try to forcibly convert others, or try to apply your religious principles to the rule of law.

Agree with first part, disagree with second part for reasons explained above.

Edited by Shia Engineer

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Thomas Friedman is indeed well-travelled but he's nowhere near being an expert who can predict real things.

My advice to you "prytich" is to quit relying on newspapers in your analysis of the future. In the USA, where even the most prestigious think tanks and research centers are flawed, newspapers won't get you far. Here are two illustrations on why you should listen to me:

1- During my trip to D.C. in 2007, I visited the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) - one of the most renowed and most influential centers in the world, I was looking at some booklets and publications. I came across a paper on Hezbollah. It starts with something that looks like this : "In the southern suburb in Beirut, in a Hezbollah office, a portrait of Ben Laden is hung on the wall near a picture of Sayed Hassan Nasrallah". D.C. and IISS with full ressources mobilized do not know that Ben Laden made Nasrallah's slaughter halal.

2- Concerning T.Friedman: this guy is cool. Have you read any of his books? It's a debris of journalistic articles that hardly make any sense. He believes in globalization and in the flat world and how equal opportunities are going just to descend on us and we'll live happily ever after. Take his "Golden Arches" McDonald theory. He predicted that two nations who have McDonald's franchises will never go to war against each others (Lebanon vs. Israel? / Russia vs. Georgia?) ==> This guy does not predict well. Abandon him.

Edited by shiabrains

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Islam never killed "tribes" of people as you allege! A true example of this is the Native Americans in "america" again 100+ million Natives killed to the point were 99.999% of the Native Americans were wiped out. There used to be a nation of Native Americans that were almost entirely wiped out. Compare this to an example, India, there are still around 1 billion hindus alive and well today in India.

Jewish tribes of medina is but one example, your numbers pertaining to Native Americans are absurd. The only reason the Hindus are still around is because they refused to convert and fought back the muslim attacks. To this day the Hindus and Muslims, both within India and between India and Pakistan are at each other's throats.

No, they are defending smear attacks obviously pitted against Muslims to discredit them. We have the full right to defend ourselves.

I have posted factual historical events about past islamic actions. If you and they are unable to accept the violent past and present of muslims' conquests, then that's up to you.

Pure baseless propaganda that serves no purpose but to serve an agenda. It basically attacks Muslims as a diversion to try to attack Islam itself. Too smart to fall for it. Sorry.

Deny what you wish, but few knowledgeable historians will deny the incredibly bloody past of islam, and how it came to be spread across the middle east and africa.

And I am still waiting for you to read proper analysis of Qur'an verses from actual respected Shia ulema that state that crimes can be committed. We believe that the Qur'an is a complete and just book. We really take any criticism about it very seriously. Bring your proof if you are truthful.

Again, the koran statements are largely irrelevent; it is how muslims today are interpreting them to justify mass murder and violence.

Western colonialism, pan-Arabism, Wahabbism, need I say more?

Spare me the excuses, arab muslim/muslim nations have had their own leadership in some cases for centuries, and at what point will they modernize? How much mileage do you expect to get out of past grievances? The US was a UK colony, should it continue to blame Britain for all of its own problems?

It's just enemies outside and inside Islam that are succeeding and resulting in a decline in the living situation in Muslim countries.

It is EXACTLY this laziness and inability to accept responsibility for one's own failings that is endemic especially to Islamic nations.

Which is why Islam must be defended.

How, with more wars? Is violence the only option to Islamic nations/muslims?

Pure Islam is perfect and is the truth, and worldly economic problems will not change that.

NOTHING on earth is perfect, nothing.

I am a Muslim and I live in the West and I mix with non-Muslims all the time as well as all my Muslim friends, so I don't agree with you. Try again.

It is well known that many muslim communities in the EU, particularly, are far from interested in assimilating, and make no effort to do so.

Essentially be religious in private but pretend to be an atheist in public. Again you are seeing the confrontation between the social and collectivist dynamic that Islam requires and Western individualism. And my belief is that an Islamic system is the only truly sustainable system of the two.

This is the crux of the issue, islam is a political system, and this is unacceptable and intolerable. If muslims are unwilling to separate their religion from politics, then they should cease living in Western democracies. Civil war will be inevitable, and muslims will end up being deported en masse, it will not be pretty.

The truth is the truth.

The "truth" depends upon one's perspective. Rigid thought like this is what is responsible for muslims' backward, lagging countries.

You must have either had bad experiences with Muslims or you have been reading biased media sources, because in Islam there is absolutely no compulsion in religion and nobody can make anybody do or believe anything.

I didn't need to read "biased" news sources when I read about the UK and Spanish bombings, or 9/11, or the hundreds of Israeli suicide bombings. Are those events simply manufactured?

God endows people with free will to choose their own path and conversions to Islam are only accepted if they are done out of free will. Case closed.

There are passages in the koran about killing unbelievers, and while you claim these are misinterpreted, its rather difficult to see how.

Islam has prevailed because of the power and perfection of its ideas and its resonance with a lot of people, and not because of force. The longer it takes for you to accept this dampens your credibility on the manner.

This is factually incorrect, one of my first comments to you was that you were not educated correctly, and this is an example.

I am absolutely shocked you do not believe that Islam works the same way!

Even today, at almost every point on the globe, where an islamic country meets a non-muslim one, there is conflict. Even if you have locked out of your mind the past violence of islam, the events of today should be clear evidence.

Religions are not just private acts of worship. They are a way of life for both individuals and society at large.

Islam is a social and not just a individual religion. Islam sets rules for society and humanity at large and are meant for collective law. And since we believe that Islam is the perfect system given to us by an absolute creator, this system is the best system (when lead by an infallible), and therefore is superior to all other social systems. . You can't just practice privately to be a Muslim, you must interact extensively with the whole ummah. Unlike in the West, religion and politics are one and the same, and that is the fundamental difference that I will not budge on.

And you are well within your means to do so, just not in a Western country. You have no right then to move to a Western country and expect that these beliefs about integrating religion and politics will or should be respected.

I think you believe that secularism is a kind of a "neutral" system if you will, which means that since all systems are different and people can't agree on which is right, we must not let any of them take hold and instead compromise on this new kind of system under this umbrella that we will call "secularism'. But I ultimately believe secularism is itself a system that is subject to own inherent beliefs and sets of codes, and will never compromise all systems under one roof, because it is not a perfect system. Secularism must actively suppress religions in their purest forms which mean the induction of social policy, and reduce it only to individual worship, so that all systems can be under its roof. Unlike every other religion in the world, Islam is the only religion that has kept consistent with its teachings and has not tolerated this suppression by secularization. And I can see how secular people who want their system to prevail can't stand this.

A "secular" society is an open one tolerating all beliefs, so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others to practice their faiths. Just as there are limits to free speech - you cannot scream "fire" in a theatre - you may believe your religion to be perfect, so does the person next to you, and they may be of a different religion. Since islam, as you have explained here, in your mind is deemed "perfect", a thought not shared by the other world religions, it is therefore likely that those who follow islam will use all means at their disposal to try to a-eradicate other religions b-forcibly convert others to their "perfect" faith. Both of which have happened with respect to muslims for 1,400 years.

Bottom Line: (I will not compromise on this) Islam is the truth and the word of God and an absolute creator sent down a system through infalllible messengers for us to follow and emulate.

This lofty height of "infallible" messengers and perfection is reminiscent of the Borg, for lack of a better example. Groupthink, without acceptance of divergent viewpoints, if your way of thought is indicative of islamic nations it is no wonder they do not advance. In fact, it would be impossible for them to do so.

Of course not everyone agrees with this, and it takes people a long time to come down to this conclusion, but the evidence points to this truth, and it takes a truly open mind to figure this stuff out.

No it won't, and you can wait 14,000 years, and it still won't. Other people have different perspectives, and it is a sign of immaturity to believe that one's own way is "perfect," and that there is only one path towards a solution.

Edited by prtyich

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Poor Prtyich, he is constantly living in a "Not without my daughter" box and cant get out, what is even more pathetic is that he is putting his own credibility on the line by intentionally using lies and deceptions as a means of providing arguments that are phony or have nothing to do with is. Tough luck you came here.

Jewish tribes of medina is but one example,

Islam did not kill any Jewish tribe of Medina, actually if you knew any of them, the Jewish tribes infiltrated Islam by making peace pacts and then made secret deals with the Jews at war with Islam to have it annihilated.. In one instance some of the infiltrants of the Jewish tribes in peace with Islam attempted to kill important Quran reciters but went into a wrong Hall that was in the cave and ended up facing Muslim women and children who were hiding during the siege, only to fight with them with swords and being killed off. However there is nothing documented of the Prophet of Islam killing any jews. As for India and Pakistan, this stems from nationalism and the obtaining of power by different religious groups for political reasoning, and has nothing to do with an "ancient Islam that killed off Non-Muslims". We are not concerned with what Ottomans or some other people did, we follow the Prophet and Quran, so unless you can quote some historic fact that is backed by credible scholars i suggest you go back to your drawing board.

Spare me the excuses, arab muslim/muslim nations have had their own leadership in some cases for centuries, and at what point will they modernize? How much mileage do you expect to get out of past grievances? The US was a UK colony, should it continue to blame Britain for all of its own problems?

In persian we have a saying, "You are using bigger words than the size of your head" and that is absolutely what you are doing right now. It is true Arab and Muslim nations have had their own countries, however modernization today means that you have to be a US allie. I cannot think of a country as an example that does not bow to US demand and openly opposes it and is seen as a "modern state". This tells us something, and it has been evident throughout Europe and the East. the US decides which country is modern or not. That means: Even if you were democratic, as Iran was during Mossadegh and Today, even if you have as much oil as you do, even if you have all of the resources in the world. 'The US decides whether you prosper or not.

An example: in Dubai there are iranian sections by Swiss and Dutch banks, the US has frozen all assets of these banks throughout Europe and even Middle East by giving them a fine of 80 Million per violation. The US is a global bully, the world understand that and we as Iranians understand that, as a matter a fact many Islamic countries realize this and are like us willing to pay this price to remain free from the US thugs and bullies.

It is well known that many muslim communities in the EU, particularly, are far from interested in assimilating, and make no effort to do so.

You are behaving as if Americans and Britons are willing to assimilate in the Middle East, have you seen what Americans and Britons have done? Aside from establishing a terror state by the name of Israel, they have raped, murdered people, imported pork, alcohol etc. Aside from this, in Iraq they kill humans, sheep at random, they throw Quran's in toilets, they electrocute human beings, call them sand n*ggers and towel heads. Please spare us your dumbed down American propaganda.

This is the crux of the issue, islam is a political system, and this is unacceptable and intolerable. If muslims are unwilling to separate their religion from politics, then they should cease living in Western democracies. Civil war will be inevitable, and muslims will end up being deported en masse, it will not be pretty.

If you believe Islam is a political system, then i have some bad news for you: Neocons, Zionists and Creationists rule the west with Christianity. Whether you like it or not Europe is becoming increasingly Muslim at a very fast pace, and this has some big consequences for the US. Whether you believe Islamic politics is unacceptable and intolerable doesn't matter, what matters is where you will run and hide once a majority of europeans and in a few hundred to thousand years Americans become Muslim?

I didn't need to read "biased" news sources when I read about the UK and Spanish bombings, or 9/11, or the hundreds of Israeli suicide bombings. Are those events simply manufactured?

I understand that in the US, your people have no clue about the different beliefs within Islam and have been dumbed down by the US media, but some facts.

FACT: The US has trained the 9/11 bombers, and Israeli militants both in Afghanistan, Israel and domestically, today Israel is a client militarist state of the US where everyone is obliged to go to the army and has been accused internationally, through the UN to stop murdering small children deliberately in Lebanon and Palestine, a number of Genocides in Lebanon and Palestine along with many tortures, rapes, and the world court has ordered them to give back land that is taken by War since they are illegal.

FACT: Just about everyone here condemns the UK and Spanish bombings

There are passages in the koran about killing unbelievers, and while you claim these are misinterpreted, its rather difficult to see how.

Im sorry if i dont understand this buffoony kind of "misinterpretations" by Americans, you see prty, you are on a Shia Chat site. This Shia Chat means that we are Shiites, and that we have been the victims of terror attacks even more than you have based on such verses. We are more targets than you will ever be and that is largely because such verses are misinterpreted. I suggest you do some research and not make any such dumb statements again.

And you are well within your means to do so, just not in a Western country. You have no right then to move to a Western country and expect that these beliefs about integrating religion and politics will or should be respected.

Americans have proudly proclaimed that the world must inherit their culture, that is American Liberalism. We rejected it and there is conflict. Why did you start wars you can't finish? Why did you invade Iraq for nothing after you give him WMDs? Why do you support so many terror groups more than any country in the world, from South America, to Middle eastern ?

A "secular" society is an open one tolerating all beliefs, so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others to practice their faiths. Just as there are limits to free speech - you cannot scream "fire" in a theatre - you may believe your religion to be perfect, so does the person next to you, and they may be of a different religion. Since islam, as you have explained here, in your mind is deemed "perfect", a thought not shared by the other world religions, it is therefore likely that those who follow islam will use all means at their disposal to try to a-eradicate other religions b-forcibly convert others to their "perfect" faith. Both of which have happened with respect to muslims for 1,400 years.

I don't know what is a secular society to you, but Britain, the US etc. there is hardly secularized the way you describe it. You seem to boast about an ideal secular state, as if you want one while making the most uncivilized, elementary statements anyone could make about world events and what goes on. There is no secular state in the West. They are either Neocon or colonialized by Neocon politics. As for Islam, Just about everyone knows our Islamic system and how the Christians were treated during the rise of the Prophet. Those were the Syrian christians, today encompassing the Maronite and Armenians and even today.

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Poor Prtyich, he is constantly living in a "Not without my daughter" box and cant get out, what is even more pathetic is that he is putting his own credibility on the line by intentionally using lies and deceptions as a means of providing arguments that are phony or have nothing to do with is. Tough luck you came here.

All you can do is scream over and over "lies and deception," yet you are totally unable to address any of the points I've made, any of the links I've listed, or the events I've referred to. I wonder why.

Islam did not kill any Jewish tribe of Medina, actually if you knew any of them, the Jewish tribes infiltrated Islam by making peace pacts and then made secret deals with the Jews at war with Islam to have it annihilated...(rest of nonsense erased).

Again, deny and deny, but these events are well documented. Get a new imam if your current one hates historical facts.

It is true Arab and Muslim nations have had their own countries, however modernization today means that you have to be a US allie.

I don't see alot of non-aligned countries doing well, and not allied with the US, so stop making up excuses.

I cannot think of a country as an example that does not bow to US demand and openly opposes it and is seen as a "modern state".

How about France, Germany or Brazil? Who would consider them lackeys of the US?

Even if you were democratic, as Iran was during Mossadegh and Today, even if you have as much oil as you do, even if you have all of the resources in the world. 'The US decides whether you prosper or not.

Its REALLY funny how you whine about mossadegh being "democratically elected," yet now that the iranians have their own government - it is anything BUT democratic. Is that STILL the US' fault?

What excuse will you come up with for the current dictatorship's repression of its public?

An example: in Dubai there are iranian sections by Swiss and Dutch banks, the US has frozen all assets of these banks throughout Europe and even Middle East by giving them a fine of 80 Million per violation. The US is a global bully, the world understand that and we as Iranians understand that, as a matter a fact many Islamic countries realize this and are like us willing to pay this price to remain free from the US thugs and bullies.

Grow up, there are THREE legally binding UNSC resolutions against Iran right now, THAT is why there are banks avoiding doing any business with IRAN.

You are behaving as if Americans and Britons are willing to assimilate in the Middle East, have you seen what Americans and Britons have done?

Such as?

Aside from establishing a terror state by the name of Israel,

It is beyond the pale that an Iranian supporter of the current iran dictatorship - the world's top state terror sponsor - is accusing others of terrorism.

they have raped, murdered people, imported pork, alcohol etc.

"Imported" pork? And muslims in Western nations don't eat lamb, or other middle eastern foods? I don't see Western nations repressing their muslims any where near what muslims do to non-muslims.

And lets see some evidence that UK/US expats in muslim nations conduct widespread criminal behaviour.

If you believe Islam is a political system, then i have some bad news for you: Neocons, Zionists and Creationists rule the west with Christianity.

But but but but I thought all of the neocons were JEWS??? Can't you keep your racism and propaganda consistent?

Whether you like it or not Europe is becoming increasingly Muslim at a very fast pace,

But I though that muslims aren't trying to forcibly convert other peoples/nations? Guess you let that one slip out.

and this has some big consequences for the US. Whether you believe Islamic politics is unacceptable and intolerable doesn't matter, what matters is where you will run and hide once a majority of europeans and in a few hundred to thousand years Americans become Muslim?

Hopefully, muslims will have reformed islam - in their own countries where they have stayed - and there will never be a day that the US turns "muslim."

But I am glad to see your own intentions - and those of many other muslims - have been made clear in your posts, submit to islam, or be destroyed. Thanks for all of the proof I could have ever asked for.

FACT: The US has trained the 9/11 bombers,

After this idiocy, I am close to just cutting you off, and ignoring all of your future posts...

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Prty, you said you are close to "cutting me off", but we all know you are not a man of your word, you are a liar with a tendency to do just that: reply.

I am an Iranian

You are Not

I talk about Iran

You talk about Iran

I am the one giving You the credibility.

Since you are not an Iranian, nor have you ever been to Iran, you need me to reply for your worthless American propaganda.

Its REALLY funny how you whine about mossadegh being "democratically elected," yet now that the iranians have their own government - it is anything BUT democratic. Is that STILL the US' fault?

Iran in itself is more democratic than the United States

In the US you must obey AIPAC and Zionist Israel to get elected, or else you are out of a job

in Iran you only obey your National religious leader

What excuse will you come up with for the US' blind slavery towards Israel and americans seeing themselves as inferiors to the chosen people, even going as far as praising Israel as holy. When the US claims it is a secular country

At least theocrats are predictable, whereas you are hypocrites. Your founding fathers said one thing, your leaders do another thing.

Grow up, there are THREE legally binding UNSC resolutions against Iran right now, THAT is why there are banks avoiding doing any business with IRAN.

the UNSC are worthless when they are determined by a few member states

and when the IAEA watchdog have repeatedly said that there is absolutely NO evidence of any uranium enrichment for Nuclear Bombs. Al Baradei (in case you don't know, that's the big boss) saying he will quit his job if the US takes any aggressive stance on Iran.

"Imported" pork? And muslims in Western nations don't eat lamb, or other middle eastern foods?

hold your horses texan cowboy! lol! Since when did Lamb become a "Middle Eastern food" ..Thank you for that good laugh, let's move on.

I don't see Western nations repressing their muslims any where near what muslims do to non-muslims.

Yes..Colonialism never happened, nor is there a continued presence in Islamic countries where women are regularly raped, murdered, and in Iran's case, Iranian women being raped and our oil stolen, while American troops had immunity. Forget that, let's take a look at the Iran Iraq war where Americans gave chemical weapons to mass murder Iranians, or a civilian passenger plane being shot down by American's IN the PERSIAN GULF. No, that Discovery Channel documentary is not going to throw you a life vest. Do you know why? Because we know much, much more than you do.

Actually, the reason you are here is for that very same reason, hate mongering American politicians throughout history who are all known liars even by Americans have lied to you to look down on Iran and other Islamic cultures and that we are a bunch of ignorant sandniggers that cut off heads, blow ourselves up and that we love islam as a political movement, sorry, you are in the REAL world now buddy.

But but but but I thought all of the neocons were JEWS??? Can't you keep your racism and propaganda consistent?

My grandfather's best friend is a Jew, and he curses Zionists, just like everyone does in Iran. Nobody hates Jews, we respect them, they are a part of our society, some of our politicians are Jews, they curse Zionists too.

But I though that muslims aren't trying to forcibly convert other peoples/nations? Guess you let that one slip out.

Hehe, I guess you have never been to France, guess what, I have! And let me tell you, they love becoming Muslims, we are not like Catholics, cutting off peoples' head and telling them to convert, they WANT to become Muslims. Crazy stuff huh? Try visiting sometime..

and there will never be a day that the US turns "muslim."

The popstar you used to dance to as a little child and adore just turned Muslim..

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Thomas Friedman has a well-written article about how the collapse of the false "scholars" is near, and it is a story we've seen many times - all dictatorships fall, sooner or later.

Especially the one your country put in power, supported and endorsed. Yes, the Shah is long gone.

I stopped reading your pathetic post after your brief commentary.

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Since you are not an Iranian, nor have you ever been to Iran, you need me to reply for your worthless American propaganda.

What's really funny is that some posters like you keep screaming "PROPAGANDA," but are never able to rebut specific points.

Iran in itself is more democratic than the United States

I assume this line is in jest.

In the US you must obey AIPAC and Zionist Israel to get elected, or else you are out of a job

in Iran you only obey your National religious leader

There are many officials who don't listen or care what AIPAC says, you are listening to Iranian propaganda.

What excuse will you come up with for the US' blind slavery towards Israel and americans seeing themselves as inferiors to the chosen people, even going as far as praising Israel as holy. When the US claims it is a secular country

I think you have it the other way around, Israel would have already attacked Iran had the US not ordered it not to.

the UNSC are worthless when they are determined by a few member states

The UNGA is worthless since 1/3 are muslim nations voting en masse.

and when the IAEA watchdog have repeatedly said that there is absolutely NO evidence of any uranium enrichment for Nuclear Bombs. Al Baradei (in case you don't know, that's the big boss) saying he will quit his job if the US takes any aggressive stance on Iran.

He said that Iran is not allowing IAEA visitations to many sites, and if he quits, good since anyone who replaces him would have more brains and will label Iran fully non-compliant. The Iranian fascists better pray he stays.

hold your horses texan cowboy! lol! Since when did Lamb become a "Middle Eastern food" ..Thank you for that good laugh, let's move on.

I guess no muslims eat roasted lamb, I must have been imagining it when I lived in the ME.

Yes..Colonialism never happened, nor is there a continued presence in Islamic countries where women are regularly raped, murdered, and in Iran's case, Iranian women being raped and our oil stolen, while American troops had immunity.

"Colonialism"? In Iran it was almost 40 years ago, and is not a legitimate excuse for the current monstrous, awful government of thugs and murderers' crimes.

Do you know why? Because we know much, much more than you do.

Angry Internet Teen, you really, really don't.

Actually, the reason you are here is for that very same reason, hate mongering American politicians throughout history who are all known liars even by Americans have lied to you to look down on Iran and other Islamic cultures and that we are a bunch of ignorant sandniggers that cut off heads, blow ourselves up and that we love islam as a political movement, sorry, you are in the REAL world now buddy.

When Iranian-directed Hamas or Hezbollah animals walk into pizza parlours to blow up infants, or fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian neighborhoods, that is not "American Propaganda" - those are facts. And the Iranian fascists are personally responsible for each and every such crime committed by their proxies.

My grandfather's best friend is a Jew, and he curses Zionists, just like everyone does in Iran. Nobody hates Jews, we respect them, they are a part of our society, some of our politicians are Jews, they curse Zionists too.

Oh wow, your "grandfather's friend is a Jew," whoopedy doo dah. Does he also tip him extra?

And the Iranian poodle, Hamas, clearly states in its charter how JEWS are the enemy.

Hehe, I guess you have never been to France, guess what, I have!

I've lived in France and Europe for longer than you've been alive.

The popstar you used to dance to as a little child and adore just turned Muslim..

The child molester? You can have him, he'll fit right in with so many prominent muslims we've all heard about.

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Glad to see you like to generalize, as if all people of wealth are focused on exclusively that, and nothing else.

oh how you love to deceive. You NEVER said wealthy people you specifically said wealthy investment bankers, who are ACTIVELY concerned with increasing their wealth, many times through the unislamic act of Riba or usury.

For an example of a fabuously wealthy revert read up on edoardo agnelli, the heir to Fiat in Italy, who was murdered by the zionists and thrown off a birdge to make it look like a suicide. Jermaine Jackson is rich. He reverted to Islam. There are examples of rich people converting to Islam everywhere, but your insincerety will not allow you to accept a single word I have said.

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