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Muhawir

Finality Of Prophethood (nubuwwah)

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Simply put a Messenger/Prophet is the one who tells people the message while the Imam's guidance entails conveying them to the final destination by the command of Allah.

So an Imaam doesn't tell you the message but "conveys you to the final destination" whatever that means?

I do very much believe we are all Messengers, Mehdi's, Prophets, Trustees, gaurdian and the representatives of Allah here on Earth.

You believe you are a prophet? Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand. Just wondering whether I understood correctly.

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So an Imaam doesn't tell you the message but "conveys you to the final destination" whatever that means?

basically the Imams (as) give to us the correct tafsir of the holy Quran and guide us and keep us on the straight path..... this is what he was trying to express to you.... no, They (as) have no new laws and no new message, They (as) help us to understand and follow the Islam the way Allah meant for it to be followed and practiced, keeping the message free from corruption in the hearts of the true believers. I hope this help you to better understand.

You believe you are a prophet? Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand. Just wondering whether I understood correctly.

yeah it is looking this way.... dont worry i ran into another who thinks they are prophet as well today so i am no longer shocked.....lol... horrified, but not shocked.

Edited by Imed14

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basically the Imams as.gif give to us the correct tafsir of the holy Quran and guide us and keep us on the straight path..... this is what he was trying to express to you.... no, They as.gif have no new laws and no new message, They as.gif help us to understand and follow the Islam the way Allah meant for it to be followed and practiced, keeping the message free from corruption in the hearts of the true believers. I hope this help you to better understand.

all that could be said about Anbiya' who are not Rusul. What's the difference?

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all that could be said about Anbiya' who are not Rusul. What's the difference?

Could you please go to the link I provided [almiza 2:124]. That way you would be in a better position to understand what we are on about.

P.S. Do you believe that Satan(la) leads astray people from the straight path? If so, how does he do it? Is satan misguiding you through explicit messages?

Edited by sayedzeeshan

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Since you don't want to research it yourself i'll try a similie. Suppose you want to reach a destination and you don't know the address, you ask a person "P" the address and he tells you the address. Suppose you ask a second person "I" the address and he takes you the destination by driving you there. In the first case you know the address but there is a chance of going astray because you don't know the location very well. In the second case there is no chance of any error. Do you see the difference now?

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So an Imaam doesn't tell you the message but "conveys you to the final destination" whatever that means?

You believe you are a prophet? Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand. Just wondering whether I understood correctly.

Alaikoam Salam

Allah gave us a high station even higher than Angels who He bid to bow down to us at our creation. Surah ?

It is my belief that He intended us to be His Messengers, Messiah, Prophets, Gaurdians, Trustee, Care Givers each of us.

Yes I believe we each have a duty to manifest Islam or in other words our submitting and cooperating with Allah and there is unity in diversity to some degree amongst people of all religions and those somewhere in bettween.

I believe that religion and or the lack of it are signs of the evolution of Islam and that we each may have our respective paths but in this find common ground to build a strong foundation for our families, communities, nations and world.

I believe that in the sight of Allah we are all equal in that He expects us all to do good and be good people.

At this time we do not need to create another religion but but work on encouraging everyone to submit and cooperate with the will of Allah even though we feel more at home in a variety of religions or groups for spiritual growth.

Spiritual growth can happen out side the bounds of religion as an example working as a volunteer in a group sorted out for Parenting and relationship skills, anger and stress management skills, or skills in good communications or conflict resolution or in the core groups sorted out of Education, Counseling, Consultation and Medical Attention see my youtube videos on the subjects look for Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi.

I believe each of us is a leader...

Salam

Now all we need to do is to sort into groups for skills building and find answers to our ills, challenges or troubles. One heart, one mind at a time inshallah.

Anne Marie Elderkin

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basically the Imams give to us the correct tafsir of the holy Quran and guide us and keep us on the straight path....

And how is that different from what anbiya do? Are you saying Ambiya don’t explain the scriptures bestowed to them? The question of the brother is really quite simple – what is unique about one title from the other…

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And how is that different from what anbiya do? Are you saying Ambiya don’t explain the scriptures bestowed to them? The question of the brother is really quite simple – what is unique about one title from the other…

Salam Alaikoam

Basically when it all boils down to it these all are terms that define leadership and leadership is a skill we are all encourage to learn, grow and prosper with.

In one hadeath or Surah it says that someone who invents something good is not a liar. Surah/Hadeath ?

Basically Brothers it is high time we get off the kick with titles and get down to leading by good example.

Course I am in the thick of this effort myself. Knowledge comes from many sources and because a 2 year old finds the cure for cancer does that mean we are going to let people suffer. Of course not we are going to research, confirm and support the findings and share the cure. Everyone has some revealations in thier daily lives and we need to learn to listen, care and share.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin

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basically the Imams give to us the correct tafsir of the holy Quran and guide us and keep us on the straight path....
And how is that different from what anbiya do? Are you saying Ambiya don’t explain the scriptures bestowed to them? The question of the brother is really quite simple – what is unique about one title from the other…

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And how is that different from what anbiya do? Are you saying Ambiya don’t explain the scriptures bestowed to them? The question of the brother is really quite simple – what is unique about one title from the other…

Go and ask Allah (swt) what "Taloot" has been directly chosen by Allah (i.e. not by Ummah).

And go and ask Allah (swt) why HE has chosen Imam Mahdi (as) (i.e. Mahdi is also directly Allah's appointed Imam and no Saqifah will be decorated by Ummah in order to choose him.

Counter Questions on Imamat:

1) Who was Taloot?

Comments:

  • An Imam/Leader who is DIRECTLY chosen by Allah (swt) [and not by the VOTES of people in SAQIFAH Like thing]

2) Who is Mahdi (as) ?

Comments:

  • An Imam/Leader, who is Directely Chosen by Allah.

  • And he is not like Abu Bakr, because no Saqifah will be decorated for him, and no Voting will be done for him to become a leader.

  • When he comes, every Muslims has to take oath of allegiance at his hands IMMEDIATELY, without hesitating even for a single moment. (while according to SHIAS Mawla Ali (as) never give allegiance to man made leader i.e. Abu Bakr, and according to Sunnies he took oath of allegiance only after 6 months).
    And Ibn 'Abadah ever never gave allegiance to Abu Bakr.
    While if any one (who calls himself Muslim) not give allegiance to Mahdi (as) and not assist him (even after knowing him to the that Promised and Chosen Imam Mahdi of Allah), then for sure his place is in hell.

  • And unlike man made Leaders, it is the Promise of Allah that Mahdi is INFALLIBLE in making any Mistake in guiding the Ummah. For sure he (as) will fill the earth with Justice and Peace (while before him it would be filled with unjustice).
    And if you would like to see the man made leaders, then just look at like of Aisha and Muawiyyah who made such huge Blunders which filled earth with blood of more than 100 thousands of Muslims with swords of each other (although Sunnies still try to hide this blunder under name of Ijtehaadi Mistake).
    But just remember, Mahdi (as) is infallible (Masoom) in making even any such kind of so-called Ijtehaadi mistake too. He is Mahdi and promise of Allah (swt) he will neither be misguided himself nor ever misguide the Ummah.

So, if any one wants to understand the Concept of Allah's chosen Imam VS man made leader, he just has to look upon Imam Mahdi (as) .

How strange that people deny the Imamat of Mawla Ali (as) , but Allah (swt) made an arrangement that they have to believe in the God Appointed Imamat of son of Ali (as) .

3) And who was this Person? [A Prophet/ or a Chosen Imam of Allah?]

  • The earth could never be empty from Hujjah of Allah.
  • We read in Tafsir of Surah al-Feel [Elephant], when Ibrahah sent Elephants to destroy holy Ka'abah, then there was one Person (whom Nasibies still consider to be Mushrik), but this Person was a TRUE worshipper of Allah. And he got full confidence in Allah and just look at the words of Prayer that he did to Allah.
    And Allah accepted the prayers of this pious person and sent Ababeel to destroy the elephants of Ibrahah.

If people only understand this person, then they don't have to answer who are the God Appointed Imams of Allah and what is their role.

WAs Salam.

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Taloot was a normal person who was appointed to be king over the Israelites and the Mahdi will be a normal person who will be a just leader who brings glory to the Ummah.

The problem is not that there are people who are non-prophets appointed by Allah ta'ala but the fact that you believe in a category of people whom you call the infallible Imaams who have all characteristics of prophets. Hence, your claim that you believe in the finality of prophethood is ridiculous and it makes no sense that Allah ta'ala declares that there will be no prophets after Our Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] if in fact there will be people sharing all their characteristics and only differ by their title (which is even superior).

Edited by Muhawir

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Taloot was a normal person who was appointed to be king over the Israelites and the Mahdi will be a normal person who will be a just leader who brings glory to the Ummah.

The problem is not that there are people who are non-prophets appointed by Allah ta'ala but the fact that you believe in a category of people whom you call the infallible Imaams who have all characteristics of prophets. Hence, your claim that you believe in the finality of prophethood is ridiculous and it makes no sense that Allah ta'ala declares that there will be no prophets after Our Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] if in fact there will be people sharing all their characteristics and only differ by their title (which is even superior).

How much you turn your eyes close before reading our Posts? JUst read once again and see how Taloot (as) and Mahdi (as) is different from you and me (or to say from every Man-Made Leader like 'Aisha and Yazid and Muawiyyah)

Counter Questions on Imamat:

1) Who was Taloot?

Comments:

  • An Imam/Leader who is DIRECTLY chosen by Allah (swt) [and not by the VOTES of people in SAQIFAH Like thing]

2) Who is Mahdi (as) ?

Comments:

  • An Imam/Leader, who is Directely Chosen by Allah.

  • And he is not like Abu Bakr, because no Saqifah will be decorated for him, and no Voting will be done for him to become a leader.

  • When he comes, every Muslims has to take oath of allegiance at his hands IMMEDIATELY, without hesitating even for a single moment. (while according to SHIAS Mawla Ali (as) never give allegiance to man made leader i.e. Abu Bakr, and according to Sunnies he took oath of allegiance only after 6 months).
    And Ibn 'Abadah ever never gave allegiance to Abu Bakr.
    While if any one (who calls himself Muslim) not give allegiance to Mahdi (as) and not assist him (even after knowing him to the that Promised and Chosen Imam Mahdi of Allah), then for sure his place is in hell.

  • And unlike man made Leaders, it is the Promise of Allah that Mahdi is INFALLIBLE in making any Mistake in guiding the Ummah. For sure he (as) will fill the earth with Justice and Peace (while before him it would be filled with unjustice).
    And if you would like to see the man made leaders, then just look at like of Aisha and Muawiyyah who made such huge Blunders which filled earth with blood of more than 100 thousands of Muslims with swords of each other (although Sunnies still try to hide this blunder under name of Ijtehaadi Mistake).
    But just remember, Mahdi (as) is infallible (Masoom) in making even any such kind of so-called Ijtehaadi mistake too. He is Mahdi and promise of Allah (swt) he will neither be misguided himself nor ever misguide the Ummah.

So, if any one wants to understand the Concept of Allah's chosen Imam VS man made leader, he just has to look upon Imam Mahdi (as) .

How strange that people deny the Imamat of Mawla Ali (as) , but Allah (swt) made an arrangement that they have to believe in the God Appointed Imamat of son of Ali (as) .

3) And who was this Person? [A Prophet/ or a Chosen Imam of Allah?]

  • The earth could never be empty from Hujjah of Allah.
  • We read in Tafsir of Surah al-Feel [Elephant], when Ibrahah sent Elephants to destroy holy Ka'abah, then there was one Person (whom Nasibies still consider to be Mushrik), but this Person was a TRUE worshipper of Allah. And he got full confidence in Allah and just look at the words of Prayer that he did to Allah.
    And Allah accepted the prayers of this pious person and sent Ababeel to destroy the elephants of Ibrahah.

If people only understand this person, then they don't have to answer who are the God Appointed Imams of Allah and what is their role.

WAs Salam.

'Aisha VS Mahdi (as)

If it is not still clear then just look at man-made leader 'Aisha and how this she-leader herself got misguided and also caused thousands of Stars like Sahaba to be indulge in misguidance too.

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 219:

Narrated Abu Bakra:

During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

  1. So, this man made she-Leader not only got herself misguided, but thousands of Star Sahaba also went against Clear Orders of Rasool (saw) and indulged in misguidance.
  2. This Fitna of this man-made she-Leader caused the blood of thousands of Muslims at hands of each other.
  3. This man made she-Leader thus filled earth with Injustice and there was No PEACE in the Land (while Mahdi (as) FOR SURE brings PEACE and Justice to the universe. It is the PROMISE of Allah about this Allah's directly choosen Leader).
  4. Unlikely 'Aisha, he is INFALLIBLE in making any mistake in guiding the Ummah. Neither Blunders like 'Aisha made, nor any so-called lame excused "Ijtehaadi Mistake".

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Off-topic responses. Still no answer, what is the difference between the two stations??? You didn't respond to my question - do prophets not explain the Holy Texts? If Prophets and Imaams both explain texts, this leaves the original question unanswered: What is the difference between the two concepts besides the name?

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Off-topic responses. Still no answer, what is the difference between the two stations??? You didn't respond to my question - do prophets not explain the Holy Texts? If Prophets and Imaams both explain texts, this leaves the original question unanswered: What is the difference between the two concepts besides the name?

You have been told but you keep on turning your eyes close. So better go from here and ask Allah directly:

1. Why to Choose an Imam "Taloot" and not to choose the Prophet? Can't a Prophet not Lead the Army or could he not be given most Physical Power and Knowledge and Wisdom?

2. And why HE (Allah swt) ended the Nabuwaah at Muhammad (pbuh)? Had he not done it, it would have been possible for Allah to send an Prophet instead of Allah's own chosen Infallible of making Mistakes Imam Mahdi at the end of time. So, are Prophets unable to bring Peace and Justice to World that Allah swt had to chose another Infallible Person Himself for this task?

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Buzdilon apney mazhab ke mutabiqh jawab deney sey baghtey hain

Kotay bhe to insaan sey baat nahi, sirf bhonktey hain

What was I told? That the difference is that Imaams explain the meanings of scripture. This raises the question you guys keep running from - than do Prophets not also teach the meaning of their scriptures? If Prophet's don't, fine, we have a difference between the two stations. If Prophets also explain the texts - than there is yet to be a difference explained...

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Buzdilon apney mazhab ke mutabiqh jawab deney sey baghtey hain

Kotay bhe to insaan sey baat nahi, sirf bhonktey hain

What was I told? That the difference is that Imaams explain the meanings of scripture. This raises the question you guys keep running from - than do Prophets not also teach the meaning of their scriptures? If Prophet's don't, fine, we have a difference between the two stations. If Prophets also explain the texts - than there is yet to be a difference explained...

Aur Insaan bhi KitooN kay Bhoonknay par anhaaiN jawaab nahi daitay.

You have been given the Clear Examples of Taloot (as) and Mahdi (as) along with complete answers and you are now running to answer these counter questions and could not face them till Qiyammah. Insha-Allah. And if you still keep on Bhonkna instead of answering our Questions then we are Insaan and not jangli haiwaan like you.

Edited by zainabia

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Your response is completely irrelevant to the question. I'm not here to argue with you about Taloot or the Mahdi or Aisha or Abu Bakr. I'm simply asking you about the difference between a Nabi and an Imaam. Plain and simple.

Don't hide behind useless posts.

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Your response is completely irrelevant to the question. I'm not here to argue with you about Taloot or the Mahdi or Aisha or Abu Bakr. I'm simply asking you about the difference between a Nabi and an Imaam. Plain and simple.

Don't hide behind useless posts.

Please let your Champion MUFTI Give Us Difference between A NABI and A Rasool and We Can moove To the Differences between Prophets(as) and IMAAMS(as) as per Qur'an 2:124.

Since Sunni Don't even Know What IMAM Stand For? So let SHIA People Give Us Explanation about Something The SUNNI Don't know about and We can argue after.

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Please let your Champion MUFTI Give Us Difference between A NABI and A Rasool and We Can moove To the Differences between Prophets(as) and IMAAMS(as) as per Qur'an 2:124.

Since Sunni Don't even Know What IMAM Stand For? So let SHIA People Give Us Explanation about Something The SUNNI Don't know about and We can argue after.

can someone translate?

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Nabi/Rasool BRINGS the revelation to the people. The Imams preserve it, perfectly, after his passing. To be very simple with it all.

nope. you are probably trying to explain the difference between Nabi and Rasool, but it doesn't help to distinguish between Nabi and Imam.

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nope. you are probably trying to explain the difference between Nabi and Rasool, but it doesn't help to distinguish between Nabi and Imam.

give me a chance i tell u acording to sunni sect

Imam in sunni sect

brother muhawir will be happy with this imam

"Imam Malik bin Anas stated no one had damaged Islam more than Numan(hanifa)" .

Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 396

he will be happy with this nabi

waha.jpg

Nauzobillah

why sunni cant bear anything infallible ?????

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Nabi/Rasool BRINGS the revelation to the people. The Imams preserve it, perfectly, after his passing. To be very simple with it all.

What's being asked for is the unique feature of each rank. Are you saying that Imaams don't bring revelation (wahiy) to the people? I believe on the first page one of your brothers contradicted this. And if Imaams preserve it, are you saying that Prophet's don't? It's a very simple question, it shouldn't require a lot of thought if indeed there is a difference between the two ranks.

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What's being asked for is the unique feature of each rank. Are you saying that Imaams don't bring revelation (wahiy) to the people? I believe on the first page one of your brothers contradicted this. And if Imaams preserve it, are you saying that Prophet's don't? It's a very simple question, it shouldn't require a lot of thought if indeed there is a difference between the two ranks.

I never said the 'Aimmah (ahs) didn't receive Wahiy. Rasoolullah (saww) job as a Prophet and Messenger was the bring the Shari'a and during his lifetime which was also his Imammate he kept it perfectly preserved.

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The Imams possession of the belongings of past Prophets

Not a difference, they were the belongings of other prophets before they became the belongings of Imaams. You're shooting yourself in the foot, that's a similarity, and it has nothing to do with the nature of their title (so the only difference between Imamat and Prophethood is possession of artifacts?)

I never said the 'Aimmah (ahs) didn't receive Wahiy.

Than you are still lacking a response as to a difference...

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This issue really annihilates the dogma of Imaamat. If there had been anything like Imaamat that is even superior to prophethood, then what's the big deal over the finality of prophethood?

Why is it such a great merit to be the last prophet if there will always be Imaams whose rank is even higher than prophets?

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Why is it such a great merit to be the last prophet if there will always be Imaams whose rank is even higher than prophets?

The merit of being the last prophet is that you are the greatest divinely appointed leader to have ever called to Allah's religion.

Edited by Sadiq M...

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The merit of being the last prophet is that you are the greatest divinely appointed leader to have ever called to Allah's religion.

That doesn't make sense. Why is not the latest Imaam the greatest divinely appointed leader to call to Allah's religion if the rank of Imaam is higher than that of a prophet?

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(salam)

Anbiya receive a Revelation that is a guidance to people. According to Sermon 1 Nahjul balagha, all Anbyiya (as) left books, and these were direct recitations of Signs in their own languages from Allah (swt).

This is what Quran confirms, Anbiya (as) were sent with the book, that provided a guidance for the differences of the people they are sent to or raised in.

The difference between a Messenger and Nabi is that a Messenger revelation is brought down and extends to all people, and the Messenger must convey to all intellects while a Nabi revelation (the book) may not do that and just be a guidance for the believers and good doers whom search the path. the Messenger brings the Hujja upon all. "Amrallah" comes down to all by the Messenger, while a Nabi does not need to do that, but simply reveal a revelation that is guidance for the differences. This book gives insight to the Unseen and makes people become sure of meeting Allah (swt) and scent what the Day of judgement and Barzakh is.. as well as what "Amrallah" is and also through this book, come to scent the Spiritual reality of Perfect Man, like Adam (as),; like Nuh (as) and like the family of Ibrahim (as).

A Wasi inherits the Nubuwa but is not sent with a revelation, he inherits the knowledge and revelation, like Talut (as).

An Imam is appointed by God to guide by Amrallah which has degrees but is Spiritual guidance and he is the witness of the people deeds and states.

According to Quran, Anbiya (as) are sent with the book to provide guidance for the differences that have risen.

According to Quran, Rasools (as) bring the Hujja upon all and bring out Amrallah and the Unseen Truth down to all, and Allah (swt) never punishes except by sending a Rasool.

The Latter takes more determination as it's to all society, while the former has less pressure because it won't bring a forced decision upon society. Both however do face oppression from the wicked people, while the Messengers obviously will face more opposition.

"The tribes", "offspring, some of it from some", this is the blessed Tree of Awsiya and Anbiya. Like Zainabia has repeated, that includes the likes of the forfathers (as) of Mohammad (pbuh), and they are chosen Offspring of Ismail (as) and part of the chosen tribes we believe in "And the Tribes".

According to the verses of Talut (as), all blessed chosen offspring of Anbiya (as) were True Kings, including the blessed Chosen offspring of Ismail (as), including the chosen Hashimi Qurayshi Branch of Mohammad (pbuh) and Ali (as).

Talut (as) Authority was Manifest because of proof of his inheritance, while these pure Kings Authority are often unknown and Authority becomes hidden like Imran (as) father of Musa (as) and Harun (as) and Imran (as) father of Mariam (as), mother of Isa (as), and Imran (as), father of Ali (as).

The Chosen Blessed Olive Tree of Tribes of Pure Treasures were the True Kings of Mankind and it's from this Tree all Anbiya (as) come from, and the final branch of this blessed tree, is the blessed family of Nabi al-Ahmad Al-Amjad (pbuh).

Allah (swt) Sunna of Sending Anbiya continued by the protection of the Quran (that guidance of book and revelation that is guidance and brings sight and guide for differences remains).

Allah (swt) Sunna of Sending Messengers continued by the protection of the Message by Ahlulbayt (as) and their helpers.

The Final Revelation remains, the Message remains protected or if not, it can get revived without a Messenger by reference to Quran and hadiths.

So Allah (swt) fullfills resalat and Nubuwa by different means now, and finality of Anbiya (as) does not contradict there being Twelve Successors whom are the Authorities we told to obey (4:59), because they don't receive a book of guidance and revelation, and they being the chosen family whom we suppose to love and support does contradict Nubuwa ending either.

Edited by Awakened

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Here is the verse that shows the role of Anbiya (as):

2:213

(All) people are a single nation; so Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear arguments had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.

The "book" is recitations of God's Signs by God on the Tongue of the Nabi, and the Nabi is the means of the revelation and signs of God being recited to the people, and brings about God's Name to at the Outward and Inward to the people the Nabi is sent to. After the recitations, a book is formed, the flows beautifully and contains wisdom, sight giving, cure for hearts, and guidance, and is inheritance left by the Nabi.

But the Prophet left among you the same which other Prophets left among their peoples, because Prophets do not leave them untended (in dark) without a clear path and a standing ensign, namely the Book of your Creator clarifying its permission and prohibitions, its obligations and discretion, its repealing injunctions and the repealed ones, its permissible matters and compulsory ones, its particulars and the general ones, its lessons and illustrations, its long and the short ones, its clear and obscure ones, detailing its abbreviations and clarifying its obscurities. - Imam Ali (as).

The Anbiya (as) of Bani-Israel all re-brought the Tawrat and left behind books. The Anbiya send around the world would leave behind books. The revelation and recitation get's inherited, and whenever the books would dissappear or get corrupted or misunderstood, Allah (swt) would re-send and re-send till the process ended with the Quran which a long with being protected physically, protects it's own verses from misinterpretation.

Edited by Awakened

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