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Waqas 411

Prove Ali (ra) Would Have Made A Better Leader

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Who gives if they were,did they die as kafrs or not?they still died as enemies of islam so choose a better name and to everyone else do you see how he still does not answer my quetions

They were killed as Muslims. Read this book:

LINK

If you want specific quotes, do not hesitate to ask.

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hummm,,,,the study of sunni fantasmagiorically hadith,,

interesting :)

bro wa,,,

sorry who untied who in what ,,and what does it have to do with abu bkaer and his 2 man shura?

Salaam Karbalah

Just translate the Text below. In My Area (Cameroon) The IT's are propleming since Two days so much so that you have to translate from your area. EVEN this SYSTRAN is Not Working Here from the time being.

Introduction aux Sciences du Coran

L’inscription du Coran à l’époque de Abû Bakr - qu’Allâh l’agrée

Sheikh Dr `Abd Allâh Shahâtah, Professeur de Législation islamique à la Faculté des Sciences, Université du Caire

samedi 9 février 2002

1- L’initiative de la compilation du Coran

Le Coran ne fut pas assemblé au sein d’un même livre du vivant du Prophète - paix et bénédiction sur lui. Il était réparti sur divers supports d’écriture tels que les feuilles de palmiers, les pierres plates, les os et ce que l’on trouvait comme feuillets. Le Coran ne fut pas assemblé du vivant du Prophète à cause de la continuité de la révélation et de la probabilité de recevoir une révélation abrogeant certains versets. En outre, le besoin de compiler le Coran ne se faisait pas sentir tant que le Messager était parmi les musulmans, car il constituait une référence indéfectible concernant le Livre sacré.

Puis, lorsque Abû Bakr devint le Calife des Musulmans, il s’engagea activement dans les guerres d’apostasie. Un certain nombre de musulmans périrent dans ces guerres, notamment lors de la bataille d’Al-Yamâmah qui déboucha sur la mort de Musaylimah l’Imposteur et durant laquelle 1200 musulmans dont 39 grands Compagnons et 70 mémorisateurs du Coran atteignirent le martyre [1].

Les musulmans s’attristèrent sur la mort des maîtres-récitateurs du Coran et craignirent qu’une partie du Coran ne soit perdue par la mort de ses dépositaires. Par conséquent, ils proposèrent à Abû Bakr - qu’Allâh l’agrée - de compiler le Coran dans un livre solidaire unique certifié par un comité de grands récitateurs l’ayant reçu du Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui. Parmi les récitateurs les plus réputés, il y avait : Zayd Ibn Thâbit, `Abd Allâh Ibn Mas`ûd, Ubayy Ibn Ka`b, `Alî Ibn Abî Tâlib, Abû Mûsâ Al-Ash`arî et Sâlim l’affranchi de Abû Hudhayfah, ce dernier ayant trouver le martyre lors de la bataille d’Al-Yamâmah.

On nomma Zayd pour superviser la compilation du Coran car il avait assisté à la Dernière Révision du Coran [2] et était jeune et donc plus endurant à la tâche. De par sa jeunesse, il était aussi moins arc-bouté sur son opinion personnelle et moins fier de son passé, ce qui lui permettrait une bonne écoute des grands Compagnons parmi les récitateurs et les mémorisateurs et d’être plus attentif à la compilation sans privilégier sa propre mémorisation [3].

2- Le hadîth d’Al-Bukhârî

Al-Bukhârî rapporte dans son Sahîh que Zayd Ibn Thâbit - qu’Allâh l’agrée - dit : "Après la mort des gens d’Al-Yamâmah, Abû Bakr me convoqua. Je trouvai chez lui `Umar Ibn Al-Khattâb. Abû Bakr - qu’Allâh l’agrée - dit :

"`Umar est venu me voir et pour me dire : ’La mort a prélevé un lourd tribut sur les hommes le jour d’Al-Yamâmah et je crains que cela ne touche les mémorisateurs sur les divers fronts si bien que l’on perdra une grande partie du Coran s’ils ne le compilent pas. Je serais donc d’avis que tu compiles le Coran. Abû Bakr demanda : comment puis-je faire une chose que le Messager d’Allâh n’a pas faite ? Il dit : Par Allâh, c’est une entreprise bénéfique. Il n’a cessé d’en discuter avec moi jusqu’à ce qu’Allâh ouvre ma poitrine [4] et que je partage l’opinion de `Omar".

Zayd dit : `Omar était assis et ne disait mot. Abû Bakr dit : ’Tu es un homme jeune et sage et nous n’avons pas de suspicion à ton égard. Tu écrivais la révélation pour le Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui - alors poursuis le Coran et compile-le.’ Par Allâh, si l’on m’avait chargé de déplacer une montagne, cela aurait été moins lourd pour moi que la compilation du Coran qu’il me demandait de faire. Je dis : comment feriez-vous une chose que le Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui - n’a pas faite ? Abû Bakr dit : Par Allâh, c’est une entreprise bénéfique. Je n’ai cessé d’en discuter avec lui jusqu’à ce qu’Allâh ouvre ma poitrine pour ce pourquoi Il avait ouvert les poitrines d’Abû Bakr et de `Omar. Je m’employai donc à suivre le Coran le compilant des feuillets, des omoplates, des feuilles de dattiers et des poitrines des hommes. Je trouvai deux versets de sourate At-Tawbah avec Abû Khuzaymah Al-Ansârî et seulement avec lui : ’Certes, un Messager pris parmi vous, est venu à vous, auquel pèsent lourd les difficultés que vous subissez, qui est plein de sollicitude pour vous, qui est compatissant et miséricordieux envers les croyants. § Alors, s’ils se détournent, dis : ‹Allah me suffit. Il n’y a de divinité que Lui. En Lui je place ma confiance ; et Il est Seigneur du Tròne immense›.’ Puis, pendant que nous copions les feuillets dans les codex, il nous manqua deux versets de sourate Al-Ahzâb que j’entendais le Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui - réciter et que je ne trouvai qu’avec Abû Khuzaymah Al-Ansârî, celui dont le témoignage valait celui de deux hommes d’après le décret du Messager d’Allâh : ’Il est, parmi les croyants, des hommes qui ont été sincères dans leur engagement envers Allah. Certains d’entre eux ont atteint leur fin, et d’autres attendent’ Je les mis alors dans leur sourate. Les feuillets où le Coran fut ainsi compilé furent conservés chez Abû Bakr jusqu’à ce qu’Allâh le rappelle à Lui puis chez `Omar jusqu’à ce qu’Allâh le rappelle à Lui à son tour, puis chez Hafsah la fille de `Omar".

3- Eclaircissements

Nous avons cité le hadîth de Zayd Ibn Thâbit selon la transmission d’Al-Bukhârî. Il y a unanimité quant à son authenticité mais il mérite quelques éclaircissements comme suit :

L’original du Coran était conservé dans les mémoires et récité dans les lieux de prière.

L’original du Coran était inscrit sur divers feuillets et peaux.

L’oeuvre de Zayd et de ses assistants consistait à ordonner les feuillets et les peaux, les réunir et les confronter aux mémoires et aux transmissions multiples et concordantes.

Zayd ne se basa pas sur sa propre mémorisation ni sur sa mémoire ni sur ce qu’il avait écrit pour le Messager d’Allâh alors qu’il était l’un des scribes de la révélation les plus fiables. En fait, il compila tout ce qui a été inscrit en matière de Coran et s’assit avec `Omar à la porte de la mosquée disant : "Quiconque a appris quelque passage du Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui - qu’il nous l’apporte" [5]

Zayd et ses assistants prirent toutes les précautions nécessaires : "On n’acceptait un passage que sur le témoignage de deux personnes attestant qu’il avait été inscrit en présence du Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui" [6]

Zayd avait entendu la totalité du Coran du Messager d’Allâh. Des masses de musulmans l’assimilèrent avec lui et l’inscrirent aussi. La mémorisation était abondante et l’inscription était chose connue pour tous les passages du Coran sauf pour deux versets de la fin de sourate At-Tawbah qui n’étaient inscrits que chez Abû Khuzaymah Al-Ansârî, un homme singularisé par le Prophète en rendant son témoignage équivalent à celui de deux hommes. Aussi ces deux versets furent inscrits par Zayd à leur emplacement dans le codex.

Le codex ainsi compilé fut conservé à l’image des actes notariaux que l’on conserve pour l’avenir car il s’agit d’une réalité concrète non sujette à contestation.

Le texte coranique fut établi par un tawâtur abondant (transmissions parallèles concordantes et nombreuses), transmis par des masses nombreuses que l’on ne peut soupçonner de connivence dans le mensonge et Dieu se chargea de sa préservation. Son inscription fut conduite de la manière la plus parfaite grâce au conseil de `Omar, la conviction d’Abû Bakr et l’énergie de Zayd Ibn Thâbit et sa volonté sincère. Il s’agit là du document le plus fiable que l’histoire connut et ne fut entaché de la moindre altération ni changement : "Nulle modification aux paroles d’Allâh"

Les gens équitables attestèrent de l’extrême précision de la compilation du Coran et de la véridicité et de la rigueur de sa transmission. L’orientaliste anglais Sir William Muir dit : "Le Coran de par son contenu et son ordre exprime avec force la précision de sa compilation. Les diverses parties furent assemblées d’une manière extrêmement simple et sans afféterie. On ne trouve pas dans cette compilation l’empreinte d’une main qui aurait apporté un talent ou un ordre. Elle témoigne de la foi du compilateur et son dévouement pour ce qu’il compile car il n’a pas osé faire plus que de prendre ces versets sacrés et les mettre les uns à la suite des autres." [7] L’oeuvre de Zayd se limita à rassembler les peaux où le Coran était inscrit et les relier par un fil puis les conserver chez le caliphe si bien que son résultat soit un texte éternel à l’abri du temps. Sir William Muir dit également : "Selon toute vraisemblance, le monde entier ne connait aucun livre hormis le Coran ayant traversé douze siècles avec un texte aussi limpide et précis." [8]

4- Des narrations concernant la compilation du Coran

Il y a une narration stipulant que `Omar fut le premier à compiler le Coran dans le codex (arabe : mushaf) et ce parce qu’il s’enquit un jour d’un verset du Livre d’Allâh et on lui dit qu’il était avec untel, mort lors de la bataille d’Al-Yamâmah. Il répondit : à Allâh nous appartenons, puis il ordonna la compilation du Coran. Il est possible de concilier ce récit avec le récit précédent transmis par tawâtur en considérant que `Omar fut le premier à avoir penser à la compilation du Coran et le suggéra à Abû Bakr et l’en convainquit. Quant à la compilation à proprement parler, elle eut lieu à l’époque d’Abû Bakr comme le confirme le récit rapportant que `Alî Ibn Abî Tâlib dit : "Qu’Allâh fasse miséricorde à Abû Bakr. Il fut l’homme ayant reçu la plus grande rétribution pour avoir compilé les codex et il est le premier à avoir compilé ce qu’il y a entre les deux couvertures". On rapporte à cet effet un grand nombre de témoignages concordants de la part des Compagnons.

Certains narrateurs pensent que la compilation du Coran débuta du temps d’Abû Bakr et s’acheva du temps de `Omar. Mais le récit d’Al-Bukhârî est plus fiable car il montre que la compilation fut réalisée du temps d’Abû Bakr chez qui les feuillets furent conservés puis chez `Omar après le décès d’Abû Bakr, puis chez Hafsah la fille de `Omar, puis ils furent confiés à `Uthmân pour lui servir de base pour unir les gens autour d’un codex unique.

D’autres narrations laissent entendre que `Alî Ibn Abî Tâlib fut le premier à réunir le Coran après le décès du Messager.

Nous pensons que l’entreprise de `Alî était sur le plan individuel afin qu’il ait une copie personnelle du Coran. Il s’agit d’un effort privé encouragé par Abû Bakr tout comme il encouragea d’autres Compagnons à faire de même. Mais le codex d’Abû Bakr réunit les efforts de l’ensemble des musulmans et des assemblées de Compagnons.

Ash`ath Ibn Sîrîn relate : "Lorsque le Prophète - paix et bénédiction sur lui - décéda, `Alî jura de ne porter sa tunique sauf pour la prière du vendredi jusqu’à ce qu’il ait compilé le Coran dans un codex, ce qu’il fit. Alors Abû Bakr lui demanda de venir après quelques jours et lui dit : ’N’apprécies-tu pas que je sois devenu l’émir ô Abû Al-Hasan ?’ Il répondit : ’Non, par Allâh. Seulement, j’ai juré de ne porter une tunique sauf pour la prière du vendredi’, puis il lui prêta allégeance et rentra chez lui". [9]

Ibn Hajar dit : ce récit est faible de par l’interruption de sa chaîne de garants et à supposer qu’il ait été authentique, il signifie la mémorisation dans la poitrine [10] car on dit de celui qui a mémorisé le Coran (arabe : hafidha) qu’il l’a compilé (arabe : jama`a). [11]

La précédence en matière de compilation du Coran fut attribuée à `Alî dans plusieurs narrations dans Al-Itqân et dans d’autres ouvrages tout comme elle fut attribuée à Sâlim, l’affranchi d’Abû Hudhayfah. [12] On interprète ces narrations en disant qu’ils furent parmi les premiers compilateurs sous les ordres d’Abû Bakr.

Par conséquent, nous voyons que l’attribution de la compilation du Coran à `Omar, ou `Alî ou Sâlim l’affranchi d’Abû Hudhayfah ou d’autres sont des narrations isolées qui n’entament en rien la narration authentique jouissant du tawâtur et, à supposer que ces narrations isolées soient authentiques, elles sont sujettes à interprétation. Je note également qu’Abû Bakr ne s’opposa pas à la compilation de codex personnels par `Alî ni Sâlim ni par d’autres gens en tant que codex destiné à un usage personnel. La compilation effectuée par Abû Bakr est une consignation réunissant les qualités les plus fiables en matière de transmission fidèle. C’est pour cette raison que `Alî dit - selon la narration de Sufyân, d’après As-Suddî, d’après `Abd Khayr : "L’homme ayant reçu la plus grande rétribution pour les codex est Abû Bakr. Qu’Allâh fasse miséricorde à Abû Bakr, il est le premier à avoir compilé ce qu’il y a entre les deux couvertures". [13]

5- Le Coran du temps de `Omar

Les conquêtes se multiplièrent à l’époque de `Omar et la carte du monde musulman s’élargit comprenant les empires perse et romain et d’autres contrées. Dix ans ne s’étaient écoulés depuis le décès du noble Prophète que l’appel de l’islam avançait mû par une force interne triomphant de royaumes et d’états et absorbant des peuples et des nations. Comme l’islam est un appel universel ne connaissant ni racisme ni chauvinisme, les peuples non-arabes embrassèrent massivement la religion d’Allâh et s’engagèrent dans la nouvelle religion assimilant ses prescriptions et récitant son Coran dans divers accents et selon divers lectionnaires.

`Omar - qu’Allâh l’agrée - envoyait des maîtres-récitateurs et des enseignants dans les contrées pour enseigner aux gens le Livre d’Allâh. Il y avait également une école à Médine où les enfants apprenaient le Coran. `Omar prenait grand soin de ces enfants si bien que quand il partit pour la Syrie après sa conquête, il leur manqua au point qu’ils partirent à sa rencontre à son retour à un jour de marche de Médine.

`Omar songea aussi à l’inscription de la tradition prophétique et à la compilation des hadîths et demanda à Allâh de l’orienter dans cette initiative. Puis, il changea d’avis afin de ne pas détourner les gens du Livre d’Allâh. On rapporte d’après Quradhah Ibn Ka`b : "Quand `omar nous envoya en Iraq, il nous accompagna et dit : ’Savez-vous pourquoi je vous ai envoyé ?’ Ils dirent : ’Oui, pour nous honorer’. Il dit : ’Lorsque vous abordez un village bourdonnant par la récitation du Coran, ne les occupez pas avec les hadîths. Consacrez-vous au Coran et limitez la narration de la part du Messager d’Allâh - paix et bénédiction sur lui - et vous avez mon appui.’’ Lorsque Quradhah arriva, on lui demanda : rapporte-nous ( les paroles du Prophète). Il dit : `Omar nous l’a défendu." [14]

`Omar ne fut point avare en maîtres-récitateurs et en enseignants du Coran avec les contrées conquises. Il choisissait les grands récitateurs de Médine et les envoyait dans les cités conquises. Lorsque les habitants de la Syrie lui demandèrent des récitateurs, il accéda à leur demande et mit en place un plan pour enseigner aux gens la récitation correcte et l’art de la diction coranique.

Mohammad Ibn Sa`d rapporte dans ses Tabaqât d’après Mohammad Ibn Ka`b Al-Quradhî avec la chaîne de garants : Cinq parmi les Ansâr compilèrent le Coran du vivant du Prophète - paix et bénédiction sur lui - Mu`âdh Ibn Jabal, `Ubâdah Ibn As-Sâmit, Ubayy Ibn Ka`b, Abû Ayyûb et Abû Ad-Dardâ’. Pendant le caliphat de `Omar Ibn Al-Khattâb, Yazîd Ibn Abû Sufyân lui écrivit : Les habitants de la Syrie sont devenus nombreux et remplissent les cités. Ils ont besoin de gens pour leur enseigner le Coran et les instruire en religion. Prince des Croyants, envoie-moi en renfort des instructeurs pour leur enseigner. `Omar invita ces cinq personnes et leur dit : Vos frères en Syrie m’ont demandé en renfort des gens pour leur enseigner le Coran et la religion alors soutenez-moi - qu’Allâh vous fasse miséricorde - avec trois d’entre vous. Si vous voulez, vous pouvez faire un tirage au sort. Sinon, si trois d’entre vous veulent sont volontaires, qu’ils se fassent connaître. Ils dirent : Il n’y a nul besoin de tirer au sort. Celui-ci est un homme âge, parlant d’Abû Ayyûb, et celui-là est malade, désignant Ubayy Ibn Ka`b. Alors Mu`âdh, `Ubâdah et Abû Ad-Dardâ’ se portèrent volontaires. `Omar leur dit : Commencez par Hims car vous y trouverez toutes sortes de gens dont certains se trompent. Si vous le notez, alors instruisez-y un groupe de gens. Lorsque vous en serez satisfaits, que l’un de vous en prenne la responsabilité et que l’un des deux autres aille à Damas et l’autre en Palestine. Ils arrivèrent donc à Hims. Lorsqu’ils furent satisfaits des gens, `Ubâdah y demeura, Abû Ad-Dardâ’ alla à Damas et Mu`âdh alla en Palestine. Mu`âdh mourut durant la peste de `Amwâs. `Ubâdah quant à lui s’installa en Palestine par la suite et y mourut. Quant à Abû Ad-Dardâ’, il demeura à Damas jusqu’à son décès. [15]

L’expansion des conquêtes et la propagation de l’islam dans les empires perse et romain et en Egypte, ainsi que le fait de tolérer que les gens lisent le Coran selon la capacité de leur anatomie et leurs accents d’origine, accompagné d’un contrôle relâché sur la récitation et l’autorisation de l’islam que le Coran soit lu selon sept modes, tout ceci donna naissance à une grande divergence entre les gens dans la technique de récitation. Lors de l’avènement du troisième caliphat avec `Uthmân, il nota cette discorde et décida de réunir les gens autour d’un codex unique le codex-maître (al-mushaf al-imâm) et brûla tous les autres codex. Il envoya une copie du codex `uthmânien dans nombre de contrées musulmanes. Ce codex fut agréé par la oummah de génération en génération.

P.-S.

Traduit de l’arabe de `Ulûm Ad-Dîn Al-Islâmî (Les sciences de la religion islamique) de Dr. `Abd Allâh Shehâtah, éditions Al-Hay’ah Al-`Âmmah Al-Misriyyah lil-Kitâb, 3ème édition, 1998. ISBN 977-01-5786-4.

JUST FROM THEIR SOURCES, ALI WOULD HAVE MADE A BETTER LEADER :) !

THEY REJECT EVERYTHING IN FAVOR OF ALI (as). and They Come Here Saying They Love and Respect ALI (as)

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Assalamwalaikum,

Let's forget the Sunni proofs for Abu Bakr (ra) and the Shia proofs for Ali (ra) for just one minutes. Let's think about the two from a secular, political point-of-view. What would make Ali (ra) a better leader than Abu Bakr (ra) had he been the first caliph? I think Abu Bakr (ra) had three KEY advantages which made him the most eligible ruler:

1. He was very well-favored. Yes, I do know that majority-rule does not mean everything. However, look at the transition of power from Uthman (ra) to Ali (ra). Due to tribal conflict, Uthman (ra) and Ali (ra) encountered numerous challenges.

2. Abu Bakr enforced a laissez-faire policy with his military commanders, who in turn had numerous victories and successes in the Ridda Wars.

3. Abu Bakr was a master of genealogy. He knew what to do to unite (or if he willed, disunite) one tribe from another. This would make it a very simple task for him to unite all of Arabia back again. And that is WHY Arabia united back again under his leadership.

I love and repsect Ali (ra) and his Ahl al-Bayt very much, but not as the expense of Abu Bakr.

Actualy Ali was not favored and he knew it. And that was the very reason he had to let go.

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If somebody unites all of the very divided Arabia, how could he not have wisdom?

Are we assuming that Arabia was undivided at the time of the Prophet P.b.u.H and then miraculously Abu bakr & Umar united the ummah ?

Salams

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Actualy Ali was not favored and he knew it. And that was the very reason he had to let go.

On the contrary, there are countless sermons where he shows their (ahlul bayt's) superiority over the rest. But in this sermon he has used the word favour so as to allay sunni conspiracies such as yours:

Sermon 2 - (Ále Muhammad)

None in the Islamic community can be taken at par with the Progeny(3) of the Prophet (Ále Muhammad). One who was under their obligation cannot be matched with them. They are the foundation of religion and pillar of Belief. The forward runner has to turn back to them while the follower has to overtake them. They possess the chief characteristics for vicegerency. In their favour exists the will and succession (of the Prophet). This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return.

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On the contrary, there are countless sermons where he shows their (ahlul bayt's) superiority over the rest. But in this sermon he has used the word favour so as to allay sunni conspiracies such as yours:

Sermon 2 - (Ále Muhammad)

None in the Islamic community can be taken at par with the Progeny(3) of the Prophet (Ále Muhammad). One who was under their obligation cannot be matched with them. They are the foundation of religion and pillar of Belief. The forward runner has to turn back to them while the follower has to overtake them. They possess the chief characteristics for vicegerency. In their favour exists the will and succession (of the Prophet). This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return.

superiority is not the issue here, popularity is. Ali was superior, but not popular.

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It was not popularity.

It was the fake hadith cleverly crafted by the Sheikhein and their followers who took false oaths and swore that they had heard it.

How can a Mo'min who is outstandingly superior in ALL aspects NOT be popular? Unless he's living in a pagan or Christian/Jewish community?

Sorry, even this theory based on your personal conjecture doesn't make any sense.

And if you're not convinced, how come Abu Bakar was more popular? Please you have to show us his outstanding virtues to convince us. Find something good for him, for once.

I've combed every source for this, over and over. The virtues of the first three caliphs (and those of their henchmen like Mugheera, Abdur Rehman bin Auf, Khalid bin Waleed, Abu Ubaida, Abu Musa Ash'ari, etc.) are all clearly made up, especially in books like Bukhari. For example, 1, 2 and 3 are with the Prophet and climb Uhud and it shakes. 1, 2 and 3 are sitting around a well with the Prophet (pbuh). 1, 2 and 3 come to visit the Prophet at his home. 1, 2 and 3 are taking turns extracting water from a well. Etc. Etc.

Sadly, Abu Bakar is not extraordinary in any way at all. We've refuted everything, burnt down all your arguments in his favor, and nothing remains.

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee

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It was not popularity.

It was the fake hadith cleverly crafted by the Sheikhein and their followers who took false oaths and swore that they had heard it.

How can a Mo'min who is outstandingly superior in ALL aspects NOT be popular? Unless he's living in a pagan or Christian/Jewish community?

Sorry, even this theory based on your personal conjecture doesn't make any sense.

And if you're not convinced, how come Abu Bakar was more popular? Please you have to show us his outstanding virtues to convince us. Find something good for him, for once.

I've combed every source for this, over and over. The virtues of the first three caliphs (and those of their henchmen like Mugheera, Abdur Rehman bin Auf, Khalid bin Waleed, Abu Ubaida, Abu Musa Ash'ari, etc.) are all clearly made up, especially in books like Bukhari. For example, 1, 2 and 3 are with the Prophet and climb Uhud and it shakes. 1, 2 and 3 are sitting around a well with the Prophet (pbuh). 1, 2 and 3 come to visit the Prophet at his home. 1, 2 and 3 are taking turns extracting water from a well. Etc. Etc.

Sadly, Abu Bakar is not extraordinary in any way at all. We've refuted everything, burnt down all your arguments in his favor, and nothing remains.

you guys are confusing popupar to superior.

it is very simple.. Ali was superior in every sense, after all he was the first in Ahlul Bayt, bet yet he was not popular among the mass of hat time. it is hard to believe but that is what happened. Do guys beleive that one or two guys, on their own, can confiscate the Khelafat of the Prophet?

just remember that minute the prophet died people satrted to gather at Saquifa to scheme the khelafat. Of course they were Dunyia seekers.

Edited by shunni

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Lol, I'm looking for evidence that Ali (ra) would have made a better leader at the time and accomplish more than Abu Bakr (ra), not which one was supposed to be the 1st caliph.

There's no way anybody else at the time could lead Arabia to unity except Abu Bakr (ra). I'm still looking for somebody to logically (with or without evidence) prove that Ali could have done more.

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Lol, I'm looking for evidence that Ali (ra) would have made a better leader at the time and accomplish more than Abu Bakr (ra), not which one was supposed to be the 1st caliph.

There's no way anybody else at the time could lead Arabia to unity except Abu Bakr (ra). I'm still looking for somebody to logically (with or without evidence) prove that Ali could have done more.

So according to you Abu Bakr led the Muslims into alleged "unity"?! What was the whole "Riddah wars" about then? All these tribes of Muslims all of sudden apostated, you Sunnis slander the Prophet(SAWW) and accuse him of not being a good preacher (nazobillah)! The campaign of "state" terrorism unleashed by the wicked man Abu Bakr and his terrorist maniac rapist general khalid ibn al-walid your sunni sayf al-shaytan; was because the people (especially Banu Hashim) recognized only Imam Ali(as) as the rightful leader after the Prophet(SAWW). As the Prophet(SAWW) had decreed this at Ghadir Khumm and countless other places.

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Lol, I'm looking for evidence that Ali (ra) would have made a better leader at the time and accomplish more than Abu Bakr (ra), not which one was supposed to be the 1st caliph.

There's no way anybody else at the time could lead Arabia to unity except Abu Bakr (ra). I'm still looking for somebody to logically (with or without evidence) prove that Ali could have done more.

It is very certain had Ali insisted on Khelafa, a civil war would have insued. So Abu baker had a much better chance to lead and he did not do too bad. Yes there were some mistakes.

Thje biggest damage however, was the marginalizing of the imams of Ahlul Bayt. They were ruthly pushed aside. This is the main reason our nation is divided.

Edited by shunni

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Salaam Karbalah

Just translate the Text below. In My Area (Cameroon) The IT's are propleming since Two days so much so that you have to translate from your area. EVEN this SYSTRAN is Not Working Here from the time being.

JUST FROM THEIR SOURCES, ALI WOULD HAVE MADE A BETTER LEADER :) !

THEY REJECT EVERYTHING IN FAVOR OF ALI (as). and They Come Here Saying They Love and Respect ALI (as)

I read all of it and it si very good, i did not need to translate it bec I understand french :)

the only thing is that some of teh hadith it says a source but no link to book name and hadith number or chapter

as in sahih for example they have a book name , chapter name and hadith number

I will try to link them in future inshallah to sunni hadith websites listing these hadiths.

good job!

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I read all of it and it si very good, i did not need to translate it bec I understand french :)

the only thing is that some of teh hadith it says a source but no link to book name and hadith number or chapter

as in sahih for example they have a book name , chapter name and hadith number

I will try to link them in future inshallah to sunni hadith websites listing these hadiths.

good job!

Astaghfirullah rabbi Wa A'tubu ilayhi

A ' uzubillahi Minashaytanir Rajeeme

Wa Salaam bro KARBALAH and Dear brothers and Sisters In ISLAM on SIRATUL ALIYEEN HAQQUM NUMSIKUHU

MOD PLEASE ! ALLOW USE OF SUNNI FRENCH SOURCES ABOUT THE HATRED OF SUNNI HADEETHS ON ALI (as) AND AHL UL BAYT MOHAMMAD AS WELL AS SOME GREAT ASHABAS AS SALEHEENE LIKE ABU DHAR, SALMAN , ABDALLAH IBN MAS'UD, AL MIQDAD IBN AL ASWAD and My DEAR GRAND FATHER IN ISLAM, MY SKIN BROTHER BILAL IBN RABAH AL HABASHA (ra) to all.

En voici les References du précédent post cher KARBALAH:

P.-S.

Traduit de l’arabe de `Ulûm Ad-Dîn Al-Islâmî (Les sciences de la religion islamique) de Dr. `Abd Allâh Shehâtah, éditions Al-Hay’ah Al-`Âmmah Al-Misriyyah lil-Kitâb, 3ème édition, 1998. ISBN 977-01-5786-4.

Notes

[1] As-Siddîq Abû Bakr de Muhammad Husayn Haykal, p. 309.

[2] Nous avons vu précédemment qu’une révision annuelle du Coran se faisait entre l’ange Gabriel et le Prophète pendant le Ramadân. La Dernière Révision est celle qui eut lieu l’année du décès du Prophète. Il s’agit en réalité d’une double révision.

[3] As-Siddîq Abû Bakr de Muhammad Husayn Haykal, p. 341.

[4] En arabe, l’ouverture de la poitrine dénote de l’optimisme et de la conviction vis-à-vis d’une chose.

[5] Al-Itqân, volume 1, p. 100.

[6] Al-Itqân, volume 1, p. 100.

[7] As-Siddîq Abû Bakr de Mohammad Husayn Haykal, p. 332.

[8] idem, p. 351.

[9] Porter une tunique est une métaphore de sortir de chez soi. Autrement dit, l’Imâm `Alî jura de ne sortir de chez lui avant d’avoir compilé le Coran, excepté pour la prière du vendredi.

[10] Al-Itqân, volume 1, p. 59.

[11] Al-Masâhif, volume 1, p. 10.

[12] Al-Itqân, volume 1, p. 59.

[13] Al-Masâhif, volume 1, p. 5 et dans Al-Itqân, volume 1, p. 59 : il est le premier à avoir compilé le Livre d’Allâh.

[14] At-Ta`rîf bil-Qur’ân wal-Hadîth (i.e. Introduction au Coran et au Hadîth) de Mohammad Az-Zaffâf, p. 203, citant Tadhkirat Al-Huffâdh d’Adh-Dhahabî.

[15] At-Tabaqât Al-Kubrâ d’Ibn Sa`d, volume 2, p. 356 et Târikh Al-Qur’ân (L’histoire du Coran) de `Abd As-Sabûr Shâhîn, p. 111.

Source : http://www.islamophile.org/spip/L-inscript...a-l-epoque.html A L'époque de ABU BAKR

LA HAINE DES AHL UL BAYT(as) ET DES CHIITES DE ALI A L'EPOQUE DE UTHMAN

A L'époque De UThman Ibn Affan " Dhi Nurayn" pour avoir épousé deux filles imaginaires du prophètes de la Clémence

Introduction aux Sciences du Coran

Le Coran à l’époque de `Uthmân

lundi 24 mars 2003

L’expansion des conquêtes :Hijabi:

Les conquêtes s’étendirent pendant le caliphat de `Uthmân - que Dieu l’agrée. Ce dernier autorisa les quray[Edited Out]es à s’installer dans les diverses contrées musulmanes, chose que `Umar leur avait interdite leur demandant de rester auprès de lui à Médine. Ainsi les habitants de chaque contrée s’instruisirent-ils auprès d’un maître-récitateur : Les habitants de la Syrie et de Hims s’instruisirent auprès d’Al-Miqdâd Ibn Al-Aswad, les habitants de Kûfah s’instruisirent auprès d’Ibn Mas`ûd, ceux de Basora auprès d’Abû Musâ Al-Ash`arî - dont ils appelaient le mushaf [1] lubâb al-qulûb [2]- et de nombreux habitants de la Syrie récitèrent à la façon de Ubayy Ibn Ka`b. [3]

Ils avaient alors diverses manières de réciter le Coran selon les différents modes dans lesquels il avait été révélé. Les gens différèrent alors dans la récitation et leurs divergences grandirent au point que l’un dise à son compagnon : "Ma récitation est meilleure que la tienne." La discorde n’était pas loin : "Ils divergèrent et se disputèrent, les uns reniant les autres, les désavouant et les damnant."

Al-Hâfidh [ibn Hajar] rapporte : "En Irak, lorsque certaines personnes entendaient une récitation différente de la leur disaient : ’Je renie celle-là.’ et ceci se répandit si bien qu’on en référa à `Uthmân."

Les raisons de la compilation du mushaf par `Uthmân

Diverses narrations exposent les raisons qui poussèrent `Uthmân à compiler le mushaf : :squeez:

Certaines narrations indiquent que `Uthmân prit cette décision en voyant les divergences entre les instituteurs du Coran et leur sectarisme pour la récitation qu’ils avaient apprise et leur désapprobation des autres formes.

Ainsi, Ibn Abî Dâwûd rapporte dans Al-Masâhif qu’après l’avènement du caliphat de `Uthmân, tel instituteur enseignait la récitation de tel maître et tel autre instituteur enseignait la récitation de tel autre maître, si bien que les enfants se rencontraient et se disputaient. L’affaire arriva au niveau des musulmans qui commencèrent à s’anathémiser mutuellement. Lorsque `Uthmân fut informé de la situation, il dit dans un sermon : "Si, à mes côtés, vous divergez, alors a fortiori les habitants des autres contrées divergent encore plus."

Certaines narrations indiquent que le Coran fut compilé sur le conseil de Hudhayfah Ibn Al-Yamân lorsqu’il vit le désaccord des gens en Irak.

Selon une narration, Hudhayfah fut témoin de ce sectarisme dans la Mosquée de Kûfah, une province de l’Irak.

Ibn Abî Dâwûd rapporte que, de passage dans l’une des mosquées de Kûfah, du temps du gouvernorat d’Al-Walîd Ibn `Uqbah Ibn Abî Mu`ayt, Hudhayfah entendit un homme parler de la récitation d’Ibn Mas`ûd et un autre parler de celle d’Abû Mûsâ. Il se leva alors et donna un prêche : "C’est de cette manière que les nations passées ont divergé. Par Allâh, je m’en vais voir le Prince des Croyants."

Al-Hâfidh [ibn Hajar] rapporte dans une narration que `Uthmân dit : "Vous doutez du Coran et dîtes : ’la récitation de Ubayy, la récitation de `Abdullâh’, et d’autres disent à autrui : ’Par Allâh, nous ne considérons pas ta récitation.’"

D’autres narrations encore indiquent que la raison de la compilation est la rencontre de groupes de différentes contrées à l’occasion des conquêtes et du jihâd et leur découverte de diverses récitations, leur étonnement à leur sujet et leur désapprobation des variations des styles de récitation du Coran, l’étonnement se transformant en suspicion, puis en accusation et en dispute. La nouvelle arriva à `Uthmân qui décida alors de compiler le Coran.

Comme on peut le constater, la multiplicité des narrations à propos de la compilation n’induit pas de contradiction. En effet, toutes ces narrations se rejoignent sur la présence d’éléments nouveaux dans la société musulmane qui poussèrent `Uthmân à compiler le Coran.

Il est possible que les divergences se soient manifestées à Médine devant `Uthmân, et en Irak et à Kûfah devant Hudhayfah et que ce dernier en ait également été témoin lors de sa participation à la campagne d’Arménie et décida alors de porter l’affaire à `Uthmân. Il y a d’autres raisons qui ne sont pas mentionnées explicitement dans les narrations mais que l’on peut déduire des données que nous avons. Par exemple, on peut citer l’ignorance des nouveaux musulmans de tout ce qui touche aux sept modes [4] ; en effet, même en ayant connaissance du hadîth stipulant que le Coran fut révélé dans ces sept modes, ils ignorent quels sont les lectionnaires (les récitations) corrects auxquels ils peuvent se référer en cas de divergence.

Par conséquent, `Uthmân décida de réunir les gens autour d’un codex unique conforme à la langue de Quraysh, la langue de la révélation du Coran, pour unir les musulmans, conjurer la discorde, pour défendre l’intérêt général, et rassembler les gens autour d’un livre unique servant de base pour leur religion et d’axe pour leur vie. Leur rassemblement autour de lui est un rassemblement autour d’une anse solide et sur un fondement inébranlable.

Quand, de surcroît, nous apprenons que les divergences avaient lieu sur les fronts des conquêtes militaires et de la lutte armée, là où les épées sont brandies er les lames apprêtées, on réalise la dangerosité de la désunion pour la oummah et l’intérêt de la réunir autour d’un codex unique.

Le hadîth d’Al-Bukhârî

Al-Bukhârî rapporte dans son Sahîh selon une chaîne de transmission remontant à Ibn Shihâb que Anas Ibn Mâlik lui dit que Hudhayfah Ibn Al-Yamân, en provenance du front d’Arménie et d’Azerbaïdjan où il combattait avec les troupes d’Irak, inquiété par leurs différends à propos de la récitation, alla voir `Uthmân et lui dit : "Ô Prince des Croyants ! Fais quelque chose avant que cette oummah ne se divise au sujet du Livre comme les juifs et les chrétiens !" `Uthmân envoya un émissaire à Hafsah avec pour message : "Envoie-nous les parchemins afin que nous les recopiions dans les codex, puis ils te seront restitués." Hafsah envoya les parchemins à `Uthmân qui ordonna à Zayd Ibn Thâbit, `Abdullâh Ibn Az-Zubayr, Sa`îd Ibn Al-`Âs et `Abd Ar-Rahmân Ibn Al-Hârith Ibn Hishâm de les recopier dans les codex. Il dit aux trois quray[Edited Out]es : "Si vous divergez avec Zayd Ibn Thâbit sur quelque chose dans le Coran, inscrivez-le selon la langue de Quraysh car il a été révélé dans cette langue. Lorsqu’ils eurent achevé la copie des parchemins dans les codex, `Uthmân restitua les parchemins à Hafsah et envoya dans chacune des grandes régions l’un des codex ainsi copiés et ordonna que soit brûlé tout autre support du Coran que ce soit un parchemin ou un codex. [5]

Commentaires sur ce hadîth

Celui qui examine ce hadîth et les textes qui en traitent atteint les conclusions suivantes :

`Uthmân prit l’initiative de compiler le codex sur le conseil de Hudhayfah Ibn Al-Yamân :!!!: . Les autres narrations indiquent que `Uthmân le compila lorsqu’il constata la divergence des récitateurs à Médine :Hijabi: . Il pensa alors que les divergences étaient probablement plus fortes dans les autres contrées musulmanes. La venue de Hudhayfah confirma ses soupçons et, par conséquent, il ordonna la compilation du Coran.

La compilation du temps de `Uthmân se basa sur la compilation précédente du temps d’Abû Bakr. Cette dernière avait bénéficié de l’attention des Compagnons et de leur approbation ; elle avait bénéficié de nombreux efforts et fut réalisée sous la direction de Zayd Ibn Thâbit, le scribe de la révélation [du temps du Prophète] :!!!: . La compilation précédente eut lieu peu de temps après le décès du Messager - paix et bénédictions sur lui - alors que le Coran était encore frais et se récitait partout. Al-Qurtubî relate que Zayd compila le Coran du temps d’Abû Bakr sans ordonner ses sourates et avec beaucoup de peine ; les parchemins ainsi compilés furent conservés chez Abû Bakr puis chez `Umar, puis chez Hafsah. [6]

`Uthmân fit brûler un certain nombre de codex individuels que certains compagnons avaient écrits pour eux-mêmes et qui constituaient des codex privés. Ils différaient entre eux par l’ordre des sourates et selon certains lectionnaires. Les plus connus d’entre eux sont le codex de `Alî, celui de Ubayy Ibn Ka`b, celui de `Abdullâh Ibn Mas`ûd et celui d’Abû Mûsâ Al-Ash`arî. La diffusion de ses codex individuels conduisit à la désunion et à la divergence. :!!!:

Certains orientalistes tentèrent de nier le sérieux et la concordance du codex de `Uthmân prétendant que ce dernier le compila pour un intérêt personnel, présicément pour avoir un codex privé à l’instar de tous les compagnons. [7] Mais ceci est un mensonge visant à attaquer le codex maître (Al-Mushaf Al-Imâm) et à nier ses qualités de concordance, d’authenticité certaine et le fait qu’il est le fruit de nombreux efforts.

L’inscription du codex à l’époque de `Uthmân se fit selon la langue de Quraysh, la langue dans laquelle le Coran fut revélé, celle de la majorité des musulmans, celle de la poésie et de la littérature, la langue officielle de l’État. A l’aube de l’islam, il était permis de réciter le Coran dans divers dialectes arabes par facilité. Mais lorsque les arabes s’habituèrent à la récitation, que la restriction à un seul mode était devenue chose facile et davantage dans leur intérêt, ils se réunirent autour d’un seul mode, celui de la Dernière Exposition. [8]

Le public agréa l’oeuvre de `Uthmân et l’approuva, convaincu par l’effort qu’il y dépensa et persuadé de la réalisation de l’intérêt de la oummah en termes d’unité et de cohésion. L’Imâm `Alî - qu’Allâh l’agrée - dit : "Ne dîtes que du bien au sujet de `Uthmân. Par Allâh, tout ce qu’il fit était au vu et au su de chacun d’entre nous." [9] Il dit également : "Si j’étais caliphe, j’aurais pris la même initiative que `Uthmân vis-à-vis du codex." [8] :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!:

`Abd Ar-Rahmân Ibn Mahdî dit : "Deux choses distinguent `Uthmân par rapport à Abû Bakr et `Omar : sa patience face aux épreuves jusqu’à être assassiné injustement et le fait d’avoir rassemblé les musulmans autour du codex." [8] `Abdullâh Ibn Mas`ûd commença par objecter à cette intiative, puis son objection cessa lorsqu’il vit le codex de `Uthmân. [8] :yaali:

La commission du mushaf

Les récits ne sont pas unanimes quant au nombre de mémorisateurs auxquels `Uthmân - que Dieu l’agrée - confia l’inscription du codex. Certains indiquent qu’il la confia à Zayd Ibn Thâbit. La narration rapportée par Al-Bukhârî indique que la commission comportait quatre personnes. La tradition rapportée par Ibn Abî Dâwûd indique que la commission était composée de douze membres. On comprend de l’ensemble de ces traditions que Zayd Ibn Thâbit était le président de la commission et que `Uthmân lui associa quatre parmi les meilleurs Compagnons et les mémorisateurs les plus sûrs. Il est également possible que `Uthmân ait appuyé la commission par un groupe supplémentaire de Compagnons pour les aider dans la copie des codex envoyés par la suite dans les diverses contrées.

Ainsi ceux qui attribuent l’inscription du codex à Zayd Ibn Thâbit prennent en considération le fait qu’il était le président de la commission. Ceux qui disent que la commission comportait quatre membres font référence à la commission initialement chargée de l’insription du codex maître. Ceux qui portent ce nombre à douze incluent les auxiliaires que `Uthmân appela en renfort pour la copie des codex envoyés dans les différentes contrées musulmanes.

Le nom des scribes de la recension `uthmanienne

Al-Bukhârî mentionne quatre personnes :

Zayd Ibn Thâbit,

`Abdullâh Ibn Az-Zubayr,

Sa`îd Ibn Al-`Âs,

`Abd Ar-Rahmân Ibn Al-Hârith Ibn Hishâm.

Seul le président de la commission était ansârite [10] tandis que les trois autres membres étaient quray[Edited Out]es.

Nous avons vu précédemment que `Uthmân dit aux trois quray[Edited Out]es : "Si vous divergez avec Zayd Ibn Thâbit sur quelque chose dans le Coran, inscrivez-le selon la langue de Quraysh car il a été révélé dans cette langue." On entend par langue ici la graphie de Quraysh.

D’autres traditionnistes hormis Al-Bukhârî avancèrent le nombre de six :

`Abdullâh Ibn `Amr Ibn Al-`Âs,

`Abdullâh Ibn `Abbâs,

Ubayy Ibn Ka`b,

Mâlik Ibn Abî `Âmir (le grand-père de Mâlik Ibn Anas),

Kathîr Ibn Aflah,

Anas Ibn Mâlik.

Ibn Abî Dâwûd, quant à lui, dit que la commission était composée de douze membres, mais Al-Hâfidh Ibn Hajar ne mentionna que neuf noms parmi les douze omettant `Abdullâh Ibn `Amr Ibn Al-`Âs, lequel fut mentionné par As-Suyûtî dans Al-Itqân.

Par conséquent, seuls dix scribes du codex nous sont connus. Nous n’avons pu retrouver les deux noms restants, lesquels ont également échappé à Al-Hâfidh Ibn Hajar. Dès lors qu’un érudit comme Ibn Hajar n’a pu trouver un nom, il est de fait extrêmement difficile de le trouver et c’est pourquoi nous considérerons que la commission était composée de dix personnes.

Il est clair que cette commission était constituée à 50% de quray[Edited Out]es : `Abdullâh Ibn Az-Zubayr, Sa`îd Ibn Al-`Âs, `Abd Ar-Rahmân Ibn Al-Hârith Ibn Hishâm, `Abdullâh Ibn `Amr Ibn Al-`Âs et `Abdullâh Ibn `Abbâs, et à 50% de non-quray[Edited Out]es, dont quatre ansârites : Zayd Ibn Thâbit, Ubayy Ibn Ka`b, Anas Ibn Mâlik et Kathîr Ibn Aflah, l’affranchi d’Abû Ayyûb Al-Ansârî - l’affranchi d’un clan étant compté parmi eux. Le cinquième était Mâlik Ibn Abî `Âmir - le grand-père de Anas Ibn Mâlik - qui était un himyarite du Yémen. Ainsi veilla-t-on dans la composition de cette commission qu’elle soit quray[Edited Out]e pour une moitié et ansârite pour l’autre moitié approximativement, avec un membre du Yémen.

Il est clair d’après la composition de la commission qu’elle était constituée d’Arabes authentiques [11] exception faite de Kathîr Ibn Aflah, l’affranchi d’Abû Ayyûb Al-Ansârî, sachant que les affranchis étaient nombreux parmi les Compagnons.

Il est donc probable que `Uthmân - qu’Allâh l’agrée - ait veillé à ce que soient représentés les Muhâjirûn [12], les Ansâr [13] et le Yémen d’une part, et les affranchis d’autre part. Tout comme il veilla à bien choisir les membres et que soit représenté l’ensemble de la communauté musulmane, il veilla à ce que la commission regroupe des membres jeunes et des seniors. Les jeunes gens représentent la force, la santé et le dynamisme, tandis que les seniors sons choisis pour leur expérience, leur expertise et leur maturité.

Parmi les jeunes membres, il y avait : Zayd Ibn Thâbit, Sa`îd Ibn Al-`Âs, `Abd Ar-Rahmân Ibn Al-Hârith Ibn Hishâm et Anas Ibn Mâlik. [14] Les membres seniors étaient : `Abdullâh Ibn `Amr Ibn Al-`Âs, Ubayy Ibn Ka`b et Mâlik Ibn Abî `Âmir. [14] On retient donc que le choix était très réussi et n’émanait pas d’une quelconque passion ni intérêt personnel. Il était au contraire justifié par la compétence absolue, l’expertise, le dévouement à la tâche, la piété, la science et le savoir. L’historique de la commission et la vie de ses membres est la plus grande preuve de la justesse de ce choix et sa réussite. [15]

P.-S.

Traduit de l’arabe de `Ulûm Ad-Dîn Al-Islâmî (Les sciences de la religion islamique) de Dr. `Abd Allâh Shehâtah, éditions Al-Hay’ah Al-`Âmmah Al-Misriyyah lil-Kitâb, 3ème édition, 1998. ISBN 977-01-5786-4.

Notes

[1] mushaf désigne en arabe une collection solidaire de parchemins, suhuf. Par extension, il désigne dans la terminologie islamique le Coran en tant que livre concret. Dans ce texte, nous le traduisons parfois par codex.

[2] lubâb al-qulûb : la pulpe des coeurs.

[3] Ceci apparaît dans les traditions mentionnées par Al-Hâfidh Ibn Hajar dans Fath Al-Bârî 9/14. Conférer également I`jâz Al-Qur’ân d’Ar-Râfi`î, p. 38.

[4] Al-Ahruf As-Sab`ah : les sept modes de récitation.

[5] Sahîh Al-Bukhârî, le livre des mérites du Coran ; Al-Itqân, volume 1, p. 102 ; Al-Masâhif d’Ibn Abî Dâwûd, p. 18 ; Tafsîr At-Tabarî, volume 1, pp. 20-21.

[6] La Mère des Croyants Hafsah est l’épouse du Prophète et la fille de `Umar Ibn Al-Khattâb. NdT.

[7] L’encyclopédie de l’Islam à l’entrée "Hafsah". Dr. `Abd As-Sabour Shâhîn dans Târikh Al-Qur’ân (L’histoire du Coran) p. 108 ; Dr Sobhî As-Sâlih dans Mabâhith fî `Ulûm Al-Qur’ân (Études dans les sciences du Coran) p. 76

[8] An-Nashr pp. 31-33.

[9] Al-Masâhif d’Ibn Abî Dâwûd.

[10] ansârite : originaire de Médine. NdT

[11] Ce détail a son importance en ce qui concerne la pureté de leur langue. NdT

[12] Al-Muhâjirûn : les immigrés mecquois arrivés à Médine lors de l’hégire. NdT

[13] Al-Ansâr : les ansârites, les musulmans originaires de Médine qui accueillirent le Prophète et ses disciples lors de l’hégire. NdT

[14] Ma`a Al-Masâhif de Yûsuf Ibrâhîm An-Nour, pp. 23:74

[15] L’orientaliste Blachère avance que `Uthmân était un aristocrate et qu’il choisit pour l’inscription du codex trois scribes de Quraysh représentant l’aristocratie. Il prétend qu’il les choisit à cause des liens de parenté qui les liaient. Mais cette hypothèse ne résiste pas à la critique vu que Zayd, le médinois, présidait la commission, et que l’oeuvre de la commission fut agréée par la communauté. En oûtre, notre exposé suffit à réfuter cette allégation mensongère. (Conférer Dr Sobhî As-Sâlih dans Mabâhith fî `Ulûm Al-Qur’ân (Etudes dans les sciences du Coran) p. 79)

Source : http://www.islamophile.org/spip/Le-Coran-a...-de-Uthman.html

QUE DIEU NOUS PROTEGE DES MALHEURS DE L'EGAREMENT.

MAA SALAAM

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Some good points there. Consider these ayat, and what Allah tells us about real authority and its criterion, and how this can conflict with the criterion of the people:

Ãóáóãú ÊóÑó Åöáóì ÇáúãóáÅö ãöä Èóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó ãöä ÈóÚúÏö ãõæÓóì ÅöÐú ÞóÇáõæÇú áöäóÈöíøò áøóåõãõ ÇÈúÚóËú áóäóÇ ãóáößðÇ äøõÞóÇÊöáú Ýöí ÓóÈöíáö Çááøåö ÞóÇáó åóáú ÚóÓóíúÊõãú Åöä ßõÊöÈó Úóáóíúßõãõ ÇáúÞöÊóÇáõ ÃóáÇøó ÊõÞóÇÊöáõæÇú ÞóÇáõæÇú æóãóÇ áóäóÇ ÃóáÇøó äõÞóÇÊöáó Ýöí ÓóÈöíáö Çááøåö æóÞóÏú ÃõÎúÑöÌúäóÇ ãöä ÏöíóÇÑöäóÇ æóÃóÈúäóÂÆöäóÇ ÝóáóãøóÇ ßõÊöÈó Úóáóíúåöãõ ÇáúÞöÊóÇáõ ÊóæóáøóæúÇú ÅöáÇøó ÞóáöíáÇð ãøöäúåõãú æóÇááøåõ Úóáöíãñ ÈöÇáÙøóÇáöãöíäó {246}

æóÞóÇáó áóåõãú äóÈöíøõåõãú Åöäøó Çááøåó ÞóÏú ÈóÚóËó áóßõãú ØóÇáõæÊó ãóáößðÇ ÞóÇáõæóÇú Ãóäøóì íóßõæäõ áóåõ Çáúãõáúßõ ÚóáóíúäóÇ æóäóÍúäõ ÃóÍóÞøõ ÈöÇáúãõáúßö ãöäúåõ æóáóãú íõÄúÊó ÓóÚóÉð ãøöäó ÇáúãóÇáö ÞóÇáó Åöäøó Çááøåó ÇÕúØóÝóÇåõ Úóáóíúßõãú æóÒóÇÏóåõ ÈóÓúØóÉð Ýöí ÇáúÚöáúãö æóÇáúÌöÓúãö æóÇááøåõ íõÄúÊöí ãõáúßóåõ ãóä íóÔóÇÁ æóÇááøåõ æóÇÓöÚñ Úóáöíãñ {247}

æóÞóÇáó áóåõãú äöÈöíøõåõãú Åöäøó ÂíóÉó ãõáúßöåö Ãóä íóÃúÊöíóßõãõ ÇáÊøóÇÈõæÊõ Ýöíåö ÓóßöíäóÉñ ãøöä ÑøóÈøößõãú æóÈóÞöíøóÉñ ãøöãøóÇ ÊóÑóßó Âáõ ãõæÓóì æóÂáõ åóÇÑõæäó ÊóÍúãöáõåõ ÇáúãóáÂÆößóÉõ Åöäøó Ýöí Ðóáößó áÂíóÉð áøóßõãú Åöä ßõäÊõã ãøõÄúãöäöíäó {248

Hast thou not regarded the Council of the Children of Israel, after Musa, when they said to a Prophet of theirs, 'Raise up for us a king, and we will fight in God's way.' He said, 'Might it be that, if fighting is prescribed for you, you will not fight?' They said, 'Why should we not fight in God's way, who have been expelled from our habitations and our children?' Yet when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned their backs except a few of them; and God has knowledge of the evildoers.

Then their Prophet said to them, 'Verily God has raised up Talut for you as king.' They said, 'How should he be king over us who have better right than he to kingship, seeing he has not been given amplitude of wealth?' He said, 'God has chosen him over you, and has increased him broadly in knowledge and body. God gives the kingship to whom He will; and God is All-embracing, All-knowing.'

And their Prophet said to them, 'The sign of his kingship is that the Ark will come to you, in it a Sakina from your Lord, and a remnant of what the folk of Musa and Harun's folk left behind, the angels bearing it. Surely in that shall be a sign for you, if you are believers.' (2:246-248)

These verses are sufficient proofs for watchful hearts.

The Family of Musa (as) and Harun (as) were Messengers whom were abandoned one after another, and now they come up to a Nabi (as), and tell him to raise a King.

A Nabi being asked to raise a King.........and see what he tells them. Pondering of what he tells them not only shows Talut (as) is King over them, but the very Nabi (as) as well as to the abandoned blessed family of Musa (as) and Harun (as) and all blessed inheritors of the light are True Authorities.

For Ghayba, it also shows the blessed Awliya whom have inherited knolwedge and light from the Family of Taha and Yaseen (peace be upon them), are real authorities and not people whom claim authority with no book and writing from God backing their Authority up... Rather all such people will say "We had no authority over you..." on the day of Judgement.

One of the falsehoods Quran comes to dispel is the false concept of Authority, the Taghoot, which has 9 heads, including the Zaina of Taghoot vs Zaina of Allah (swt) and his Chosen Ones.

The Pharaoh is made low or high depending on whether the falsehood gains sway or the truth gains sway on people's mind.

We are lucky the final blessed Chosen family (as) kept the Taghoot low and disgraced them, so much so, that the enemies of ISlam and Jinn Worshippers were forced to Islam outwardly and to praise the Word of God outwardly.

We are luck to inherit from people saved from the Zaina of the Taghoot and graced with Zainal Abideen (as).

We are lucky to a people whom inherit from a people who crave Hussain (as) over any other beauty and see True richness to have been in blessed offspring of Fatima (as) and not the wretched cursed Taghootic Oppressive Elite.

There is no doubt the Chosen Tree, Chosen offsprings and tribes of God's Treasures were always the True Kings of Mankind, but were deemed weak.

The final branch, the best of the people's brought out for mankind, through their command to good and struggle against evil, however, made the word high through their struggle. This is what Imam Ali Hadi (as) shows us in the blessed Ziyaratal Jamia.

The final book remains, the final family remains high, that even those who reject them are forced to praise them.

Hadithal Thaqalain could not even be destroyed, and by God's friends, his name in the outward and knowledge of the book remains and is gaining sway.

All praise belongs to God, it seems the age of the Jinn Worshippers and their Taghootic Reigns are coming all to an end, and the word of God will remain high till all falsehood is destroyed, all by the struggle of the Baqiyatallah (ajf) and his friends and followers, the True King of Mankind, the inheritor of the the family of Taha and Yaseen (peace be upon them), the son of Al-Hassan Al-Askari (as).

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SENTENCES OF ALI.

1. Fear God, and you will have no cause to fear any one else.

2. Resist thyself, and thou shalt have peace.

3. The fear of God purifieth the heart.

4. The best riches are those employed in the service of God.

5. Resignation to the divine will, is the healing of the heart.

6. The disease of the heart is in concupiscence.

7. A man’s behaviour is the index of the man; and his discourse is the index of his understanding.

8. The coin of the miser is as worthless as a pebble.

9. A single offence counts for much, a thousand services for very little.

10. The remembrance of youth is a sigh.

11. The sight of a friend brighteneth the eye.

12. Honour thy father, and thy son will honour thee.

13. The enjoyment and delight of life consisteth in security.

14. The order of a wise man is the highest of orders.

15. Thy lot (or portion of life) is seeking after thee; therefore be at rest from seeking after it.

16. The restraining the soul [or self ] from its appetite, is the greatest holy war.

17. Consider well the consequences, and thou shalt escape from all false steps.

18. The favour of God is the greatest of all ends to be obtained.

19. The favour of God is joined to obedience to him.

20. Thy delight in thyself arises from the corruption of thy understanding.

21. Thy delight in the world arises from the badness of thy choice, and the misery of thy labour.

22. He delights in contempt who confideth his grievance to another.

23. The showing mercy to the afflicted bringeth down mercy.

24. He delights in disappointment who depends upon bad men for his subsistence.

25. I delight more in the determination [or opinion] of a Religious,[1] than in the strength of a man.

26. The control of thy appetites will procure thee riches.

27. The control of the appetites cuts off men’s observation.

28. A man’s advice is the proof of his understanding.

29. Every maws portion is as much determined as his latter end.

30. A man’s advice is according to the measure of his experience.

31. A man’s subsistence is according to what he proposeth, i. e. according to his management; because every action of his life tends to something or other which contributes either to the increasing or diminishing him. Not that this can be affirmed of every action considered abstractedly, but as it connects those actions together which necessarily tend to the determining a man’s condition of life.

32. Gentle behaviour and liberality procure the love even of your enemies.

33. A man’s messenger is the interpreter of his meaning; but his letter is of more efficacy than his discourse.

34. The apostles of God, he be praised, are the interpreters of the truth, and the ambassadors between the Creator and the creature.

35. The delight of the servant in himself is inseparable from the displeasure of his master.

36. Consider before thou doest any thing, and thou shalt not be blamed in what thou doest.

37. The glittering ornaments of the world spoil weak understandings.

38. Liberality produces love.

39. The performance of promises causes unity.

40. Abstinence is the pathway of pure religion.

41. Concupiscence is the forerunner of certain destruction.

42. Trust in God is the cause of pure faith.

43. Desire tends to the destruction of the understanding.

44. The love of the present world is the source of misery.

45. Infidelity is the cause of the removal of God’s blessing.

46. Giving way to anger is the cause of destruction.

47. Good education is the cause of a refined disposition.

48. Gentleness of behaviour causes esteem.

49. The power of religion enforces abstinence.

50. Thankfulness engenders increase.

51. For the soul to be employed about what shall not accompany it after death, is the greatest weakness.

52. To depend upon every one without distinction, is weakness of understanding.

53: He is the man of understanding, that overcometh his appetite, and will not sell his world to come for his present world.

54. He is the cunning man that looks more narrowly after himself than other people.

55. It is fear which withholds the soul from sin, and restrains it from transgression.

56. He is a prudent man that restrains his tongue from detraction.

57. He is a believer that purifieth his heart from doubt.

58. Riches are a damage to the owner, except that part of them which he sends before him.

59. The world is the shadow of a cloud, and the dream of sleep.

60. The works of the truly pious are pure, their eyes weeping, and their hearts trembling.

61. The souls of the truly pious are contented, and their appetites dead; their countenances cheerful, and their hearts sorrowful.

62. The believer always remembers God, and is full of thought: he is thankful in prosperity, and patient in adversity.

63. Partnership in possession leadeth to confusion: partnership in counsel leadeth the right way.

64. Knowledge calleth out to practice; and if it answereth, well; if not, it goeth away.

65. The things of this life proceed by divine decree, not by our administration.

66. There are two sorts of patience; the one, by which we bear up in adversity, which is fine and beautiful; but the other that by which we withstand the commission of evil, is better.

67. A man’s entertaining a mean opinion of himself is a demonstration of the gravity of his understanding, and a branch of the abundance of his excellency.

68. A man’s admiring himself is a demonstration of his deficiency, and a branch of the weakness of his understanding.

69. He that firmly believeth in a future state, is, upon his own account, the most melancholy man of all men in the world.

70. He that perishes, is one that busies himself beside himself, and whose to-day is worse than his yesterday.

71. He is thy true friend, that takes care of thee as himself, and prefers thee to his riches, children, and wife.

72. He is a wise man who can govern himself both in his anger; desire, and fear.

73. Weeping out of the fear of God, enlighteneth the heart, and fortifieth against the return of sin.

74. Opportunity is swift of flight, slow of return.

75. To make one good action constantly succeed another is the perfection of goodness.

76. Patience in poverty, with a good reputation, is better than a plentiful maintenance with contempt.

77. A wise enemy is better than a foolish friend.

78. A man’s affliction is the forerunner of his prosperity.

79. Men are more like the time they live in than they are like thee fathers.

80. A man that knoweth the just value of himself doth not perish.

81. The value of every man is the good which he doth.

82. He that knows himself, knows his Lord.

83. A man is hid under his tongue.

84. No praise with pride.

85. Innocence is incompatible with covetousness.

86. There is no rest where there is envy.

87. It concerns thee more to flee from thyself, than from a lion.

88. He that hath no courage, hath no religion.

89. A wise man is never poor.

90. There is no generosity in a liar.

91. He that is fearful, will be secure at his journey’s end.

92. No health with gluttony.

93. No generosity of spirit with a bad education.

94. A man governeth his people by doing them good.

95. The tongue of a wise man lieth behind his heart.

96. The heart of a fool lieth behind his tongue.

97. The complaisance of a fool is like a garden in a dunghill.

98. Impatience is more irksome than patience.

99. He that pursueth that which is not suitable for him, loseth that which is suitable for him.

100. A man that is given to jesting will never fail of hatred nee contempt.

101. Despair is a freeman, hope is a slave.[2]

102. The opinion of a wise man is as an oracle.

103. Enmity is business enough.

104. A covetous man cloth not live.

105. His life is long whose labour is short.

106. The pursuit of good education is better than the pursuit of riches.

107. His grief is long whose hope is short.

108. Happy is he that hath no family.

109. It is better that kings should be unjust, than mean-spirited.

110. The thirst after wealth is greater than the thirst after drink.

111. He cheats you who makes you angry about a trifle.

112. A man’s glory from his virtue is greater than the glory of his pedigree.

113. Your victory over your enemy is your forbearance.

114. The freedom of a man consists in speaking truth.[3]

115. The strength of the heart is from the soundness of the faith.

116. The word of God is the medicine of the heart.

117. Death will rid you of the faults of the world.

118. There is a cure for all enmity but the enmity of the envious man.

119. Being acquainted with bad men is going to, sea.

120. He that holdeth his peace doth not repent.

121. He that gives a listening ear to reproach is one of those that deserve reproach.

122. Your being angry is reproachful before God.

123. The praise of a man is under his tongue.

124. The conversation of young men is destructive of religion.

125. A learned conversation is the garden of paradise.

126. The destruction of a man is the vehemency of his temper.

127. The forgetfulness of death is the rust of the heart.

128. The light of thy heart is in prayer in the darkness of the night.

129. The greyness of thy head is the news[4] of thy own death.

130. Trust in God is the believer’s castle.

131. Holy wars[5] are the pillars of religion, and the highways of the happy: and to those that are engaged in them, the gates of heaven shall be open.

132. Repentance purifieth the heart, and washeth away sin.

133. Mankind is divided into two parts or sorts: the one seeketh, and doth not find; another findeth, and is not contented.

134. The good man liveth, though he be translated to the mansions of the dead.

135. The abstinence from evil is better even than doing good.

136. Knowledge is the ornament of the rich, and the riches of the poor.

137. He that omitteth practice hath not sufficient faith in the reward annexed to it.

138. Clemency in power, is a defence against the vengeance of God.

139. The reverence of God blotteth out a great many sins.

140. Resignation to the providence of Cod makes the greatest afflictions easy.

141. Quarrelling discovereth a man’s folly, but addeth nothing to the truth of his cause.

142. Truth is the conformity of speech to the end for which God ordained it.

143. A lie is perverting language from the end for which God ordained it.

144. Adversity makes no impression upon a brave soul.

145. Trust in God is a castle of defence to him that fleeth to it.

146. Impatience under affliction is worse than the affliction.

147. That man hath a brave soul who abstaineth from things unlawful, and keepeth at a distance from what is criminal.

148. Covetousness is the head of poverty, and the foundation of wickedness.

149. A deceiver’s tongue is sweet, and his heart bitter.

150. Perfection consists in three things; patience in affliction; moderation in our pursuits; and assisting him that asketh.

151. A wise man knoweth a fool, because he hath formerly been ignorant himself; but a foal doth not know a wise matt, because he never was wise himself.

152. The believer is always cautious of his sins: he dreads temptation, and hopes for the mercy of his Lord.

153. Religion is a tree, the root of which is faith; the branch, the fear of God; the flower, modesty;[6] and the fruit, generosity of spirit.

154. Anger is a fire kindled: be that restraineth it, putteth it out; but he that letteth it loose, is the first that is consumed by it.

155. Folly is an incurable disease.

156. They whose friendship is fixed on the Most High, their love remaineth as long as the cause of it: but as for the friends of this present world, their love is broken off as soon as the causes of it cease.

157. A fool doth not know what maketh him look little; neither will he hearken to him that adviseth him.

158. Riches, without God, are the greatest poverty and misery.

159. Liberality and fortitude are noble things; which God, giveth to him whom he loveth and maketh trial of.

160. That man travels the longest journey, that undertakes the search of a sincere friend.

161. He is the greatest of all fools, that doth no good, and would yet be respected; and doth that which is evil, and yet expecteth the reward of the good.

162. The most odious of men to the most high God is he whose thoughts are fixed upon his belly and his lust.

163. The most happy man, as to this life, is he to whom God hath given wherewithal to be content, and a good wife.

164. He is the most just man that doth justice upon himself without any one else to judge him.

165. That man best deserveth a kindness who, when he is put off, beareth it patiently; when he is refused, excuseth it; and when he receiveth it, is thankful.

166. The diligence of the world, is idleness; the honour of it, vileness; the height of it, lowness.

167. He that walketh upon the back of the earth,[7] is going into its belly.

168. A believer should be ashamed, when any action passeth him which his religion doth not oblige him to do.

169. Justice is the balance of God, which he hath set for men; wherefore do not contradict him in his balance, nor oppose him in his dominion.

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.........

This is enough for me.

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Some people dont understand us sunnis when we say rightly guided . This doesnt mean they cant do mistakes this doesnt mean they think alike this doesnt mean they would have the same policies. All 4 caliifs had their own minds and different approaches, by guided the prophet meant they wont be corrupt dictators, easlily bluffed, liers etc. To say ali AS would have done better is not for ahlussunah to debate as we love them all equally. As far as im concerned they were very succesfull and much of islam was spread during their brief rule. Arabia iraq persia syria jeruselem egypt etc etc came to islam during the rightly guided rule.

As for Imam Ali AS we sunnis believe his greatness came from his spirituall knowledge . As nearly all the sunni sufi orders come from Ali through the Prophet.

(this is where the prophet said I am the city of knowledge and ali is the gate. ) so Ali AS will be superior to the other sahaba in Mystical knowledge . The world sufis regard Imam ali as the calif of the Awlia (saints) Ali was the heavenly appointed califf.

As for earhtly caliifs this is left for consultation and the majority backed Abu bakr ra. Leaders can be good and bad and can come from anywhere in sunni islam(consultation election etc) but the heavenly appointed leadeship can only start from imam ali and the imams of the ahlu bait. AS appointed by god.I hope i answered this thread from the sufi (ahlusunnah point of view) and Allah knows best.

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Some people dont understand us sunnis when we say rightly guided . This doesnt mean they cant do mistakes this doesnt mean they think alike this doesnt mean they would have the same policies. All 4 caliifs had their own minds and different approaches, by guided the prophet meant they wont be corrupt dictators, easlily bluffed, liers etc. To say ali AS would have done better is not for ahlussunah to debate as we love them all equally. As far as im concerned they were very succesfull and much of islam was spread during their brief rule. Arabia iraq persia syria jeruselem egypt etc etc came to islam during the rightly guided rule.

As for Imam Ali AS we sunnis believe his greatness came from his spirituall knowledge . As nearly all the sunni sufi orders come from Ali through the Prophet.

(this is where the prophet said I am the city of knowledge and ali is the gate. ) so Ali AS will be superior to the other sahaba in Mystical knowledge . The world sufis regard Imam ali as the calif of the Awlia (saints) Ali was the heavenly appointed califf.

As for earhtly caliifs this is left for consultation and the majority backed Abu bakr ra. Leaders can be good and bad and can come from anywhere in sunni islam(consultation election etc) but the heavenly appointed leadeship can only start from imam ali and the imams of the ahlu bait. AS appointed by god.I hope i answered this thread from the sufi (ahlusunnah point of view) and Allah knows best.

Its not what you believe as sunnis. its what you can prove. And you have the Quran in front of you. None of what you have said subjectively has any basis in the Quran, This ali that you speak of is an ali of convenience and its meaningless.

Some people dont understand us sunnis when we say rightly guided . This doesnt mean they cant do mistakes this doesnt mean they think alike this doesnt mean they would have the same policies. All 4 caliifs had their own minds and different approaches, by guided the prophet meant they wont be corrupt dictators, easlily bluffed, liers etc. To say ali AS would have done better is not for ahlussunah to debate as we love them all equally. As far as im concerned they were very succesfull and much of islam was spread during their brief rule. Arabia iraq persia syria jeruselem egypt etc etc came to islam during the rightly guided rule.

As for Imam Ali AS we sunnis believe his greatness came from his spirituall knowledge . As nearly all the sunni sufi orders come from Ali through the Prophet.

(this is where the prophet said I am the city of knowledge and ali is the gate. ) so Ali AS will be superior to the other sahaba in Mystical knowledge . The world sufis regard Imam ali as the calif of the Awlia (saints) Ali was the heavenly appointed califf.

As for earhtly caliifs this is left for consultation and the majority backed Abu bakr ra. Leaders can be good and bad and can come from anywhere in sunni islam(consultation election etc) but the heavenly appointed leadeship can only start from imam ali and the imams of the ahlu bait. AS appointed by god.I hope i answered this thread from the sufi (ahlusunnah point of view) and Allah knows best.

Its not what you believe as sunnis. its what you can prove. And you have the Quran in front of you. None of what you have said subjectively has any basis in the Quran, This ali that you speak of is an ali of convenience and its meaningless.

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your comments dont make any sense?? I cant prove it from the koran cause imam ali's name isnt even mentioned by name even once in the koran. We rely on hadith our prophet and our sourses from ahlu beit for what i said before. As for chosing a leader theres a whole chapter in the koran called shura or consultation. this chapter tells us how to chose a leader and theres nothing that says hes must be from ahlubeit AS.

What do u mean Ali is just convenience for us? To love him bless him nearly a billion sufi ahlu sunnah follow his teachings through hadith and sufi orders? We name our children after him and is an example of life to us. What else do u want us to do worship him and say hes god like the ghoulat?

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your comments dont make any sense?? I cant prove it from the koran cause imam ali's name isnt even mentioned by name even once in the koran. We rely on hadith our prophet and our sourses from ahlu beit for what i said before. As for chosing a leader theres a whole chapter in the koran called shura or consultation. this chapter tells us how to chose a leader and theres nothing that says hes must be from ahlubeit AS.

What do u mean Ali is just convenience for us? To love him bless him nearly a billion sufi ahlu sunnah follow his teachings through hadith and sufi orders? We name our children after him and is an example of life to us. What else do u want us to do worship him and say hes god like the ghoulat?

The rightly guided ashaab of Muhammad havent been mentioned by name but by value. Figure out the values that define a rightly guided sahabah and then decide whether the ali of sunni convenience is justifiable or not.

Remember this, no civilization has travelled 14 centuries defying the orthodoxy and in the Islamic case, its Sunnism thats the status quo orthodoxy. So our defiance has survived this long, it must be serving a purpose.

Edited by knightstemplar

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Its not what you believe as sunnis. its what you can prove. And you have the Quran in front of you. None of what you have said subjectively has any basis in the Quran, This ali that you speak of is an ali of convenience and its meaningless.

Its not what you believe as sunnis. its what you can prove. And you have the Quran in front of you. None of what you have said subjectively has any basis in the Quran, This ali that you speak of is an ali of convenience and its meaningless.

Salaam Bro KT

Samething with Mohammad ( Pbuh) they are speaking of a meaningless Mohammad like the Ahl al kitab are speaking about Meaningless Moses (as) or Jesus ( as).

Sura fat'h - the victory - N° 48

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Verily We have granted thee a manifest Victory:

2. That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfill His favor to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;

that is it

2. afin qu’Allah te pardonne tes péchés(2), passés et futurs, qu’Il parachève sur toi Son bienfait et te guide sur une voie droite;

the footnote (2) says this : " (2) Il s’agit d’erreurs minimes considérées par Allah comme étant des péchés par rapport au rang du Prophète. Plusieurs commentateurs interprètent l’expression «tes péchés» par «les péchés de ta communauté».

= Muhammad minimal errors considered by Allah as Sins due to the Rank of Prophet. Many commentators interpret this expression " your faults" by " sins of your community"

In Sura GHAFIR N° 40

55. Endure donc, car la promesse d’Allah est vérité, implore le pardon pour ton péché et célèbre la gloire et la louange de ton Seigneur, soir et matin(11).

source : http://sajidine.com/coran_ecrit/040.htm#11

the Footnote (11) says as follows : (11) La parole divine est ici adressée à Muhammad. Et le péché qui lui est attribué ici se limite selon certains exégètes, à des erreurs minimes commises avant la Prophétie. D’autres exégètes estiment qu’Allah demande à Son Prophète d’implorer le pardon pour sa communauté. = mimimal errors commited before muhammad's prophethood and messengership Astaghfirullah, A Uzubillah !!!

They say Prophet Muhammad( pbuh) Commit Sins NA UZUBILLAH ! it is inscribed black and white in the Qur'an edited and published by the Wahhabi King Saoud Qur'an translation and printing Complex of Madinah in Both FRENCH and ENGLISH Translation Editions. They repeat the same blasphemy on prophet muhammad (pbuh) in Sura Ghafir by mentionning this " SOME INTERPRETERS SAYS, IT IS THE SINS OF MUHAMMAD'S COMMUNITY" if so, Why do they Still believe and write that he can Commit Sins? and they write it down inside the holy Qur'an translation? they went up to put doubts in the Holy Qur'an in the same edition with the ayat 7:69

The letter SAD in the word BASTATAN has a little letter SIN on his Top!!! For what reason they put this doubtful double letter SAD-Sin? In such a way the qur'an has an incertainty in it? they agree with Dr rashad khalifa of Submitters Sect ?

All of these Blasphemies comes from the So called Rightly guided SAHABAS and their followers May Allah Protects us and Guide us on the right Path of Imam Ali (as) and His Holy Sons, the Imams of Ahl ul bayt Muhammad ( pbuh).

From apostasy battles during the khilafa of Abu Bakr to the Slaughtering of Umar, Usman and the killing of Talha and Zubayr implies the Caliphs were in no way good doers. When ALI (as) took the Imamat ( leadership), The Al Ahzab coalized against him and killed Him, his Sons and progeny, men and women of his family until the last and they come here with poisoned pills of deceits saying they love Ali(as) Fatima (as) and Ahl ul bayt Imams ? Woe unto them, Verily they fear Allah NOT, What do they have to say to a Christian who believes Jesus(as) is Sinless and a Jew believing Eliya is Sinless ? since they agree with them both Jesus and Eliyah are Sinless according to the Qur'an !!!

May GOD preotects us From the Wahhabi salafi heresy

Maa Salaam

Edited by mohalamine

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Matey what u believe is yr business i was only answering a question every religion has minorities which keep defying and no one can remove them . The ahlu sunnah majority dont only have the 12vers to worry about we have bahais ahmadies wahabies and a million others popping up and eating into us but alhamdolilah we will always remain the jammaa as the prophet promised. and always keep the true opinion on sahaba ra and ahlu beit as. We will never abandon the family of the prophet nor betray the sahaba.

ya ali maddad ya fatima

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The ahlu sunnah majority dont only have the 12vers to worry about we have bahais ahmadies wahabies and a million others popping up and eating into us but alhamdolilah we will always remain the jammaa as the prophet promised.

Well you better add one more to that list. Now your jammaa is outsourcing its security need to an entity that is making halaal what Allah has made haraam. So exactly how sustainable your unity is going to be in the next 10 years is the stuff that wonders are made of. Suffice to say, in security terms you are vulnerable this century and you have been kicked in Palestine for the last 60 years without being able to do anything about it.

But more importantly our split with you goes back 14 centuries and it goes right to heart of the matter. What bewilders me most is that in 14 centuries you havent been able to define a rightly guided sahabah using the Quran and yet paradoxically you claim that you are with the Quran and Sunnah. So to me it doesnt matter if you rule the muslim word for another 14 centuries, eventually the truth catches up with you.

Victory for the ummah against its enemies only comes with those who have the Ali of the Quran and not the Ali of convenience.

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ya ali maddad ya fatima

HOW SILLY R THEY - sunnis

how can Allah(swt) & shaitan can live together in momins heart ??

a khilfa burns the house of bibi fatimaÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã

read these all classic sunni sources

al Imama wa al Siyasa pages 18-30 Dhikr Bayya Abu Bakr

Tareekh Abul Fida Volume 1 page 156 Dhikr bayya Abu Bakr; we relied on the Urdu translation by Maulana Kareem'ud Deen al Hanafi pages 177-179;

Iqd al Fareed page 179

Tareekh al Tabari Volume 13 page 1818 Dhikr Wafaath Nabi, we relied on the English translation Volume 9 page 187

al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr Volume 1 page 246 Dhikr Abdullah in Abi Quhafa

Sharh ibn al Hadeed Volume 1 page 157

Al Mihal wa al Nihal Volume 1 page 77, Dhikr Nizameeya

Muruj adh-Dhahab by Abd al-Hasan Ali ibn al-Husayn al Masudi Volume 3 page 198

Izalath ul Khifa by Al Muhaddith Shah Waliyullah Dehlavi Volume 2 page 226 (Urdu translation, Qur'an Mehal publishers, Karachi)

al Bayana Izalathul Khifa Volume 2 page 29

Tareekh Kamil by Ibn Atheer Volume 11 page 113

Tareekh Ahmadi by Ahmad Husayn Khan Sahib pages 111-112

Taufa Ithna Ashari, by al Muhaddith Shah Abdul Aziz Dehlavi page 292 Dhikr Muthain Umar

Al Murthada by Hafidh Abdul Rahman al Hanafi page 45 (Amritsar edition)

Mukhthasar Kanz al Ummal bur Hushiya Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal Volume 2 page 184 (Egypt).

Kitab Mukhthasar fi Ahbar al Bashar Volume 1 page 156

Tahqeeq Mubashraab Sunni page 110 bu Maulana Waheedudin Khan al Hanafi

Ansar Ashraf, by al-Baladhuri, v1, pp 582-586

Tareekh Ya'qubi, v2, p116

Fathul Aineen page 88

al Faruq Volume 1 page 92 Dhikr Saqeefa Bani Sa'ada

Ruh al Mustafai Volume 3 page 36

IGNORANCE becoming a couse of thier majority

this is not ISLAM

Edited by khaibershikan

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Some people dont understand us sunnis when we say rightly guided . This doesnt mean they cant do mistakes this doesnt mean they think alike this doesnt mean they would have the same policies. All 4 caliifs had their own minds and different approaches, by guided the prophet meant they wont be corrupt dictators, easlily bluffed, liers etc. To say ali AS would have done better is not for ahlussunah to debate as we love them all equally. As far as im concerned they were very succesfull and much of islam was spread during their brief rule. Arabia iraq persia syria jeruselem egypt etc etc came to islam during the rightly guided rule.

As for Imam Ali AS we sunnis believe his greatness came from his spirituall knowledge . As nearly all the sunni sufi orders come from Ali through the Prophet.

(this is where the prophet said I am the city of knowledge and ali is the gate. ) so Ali AS will be superior to the other sahaba in Mystical knowledge . The world sufis regard Imam ali as the calif of the Awlia (saints) Ali was the heavenly appointed califf.

As for earhtly caliifs this is left for consultation and the majority backed Abu bakr ra. Leaders can be good and bad and can come from anywhere in sunni islam(consultation election etc) but the heavenly appointed leadeship can only start from imam ali and the imams of the ahlu bait. AS appointed by god.I hope i answered this thread from the sufi (ahlusunnah point of view) and Allah knows best.

makes sense. because now all that is left between shias and sunnis to argue over some historical fact (i.e. whether Imam ali (a.s) should have been the first earthly caliph). And frankly speaking i think its not worth arguing over. unless one seems to think that belief hinges on knowledge of historical facts. but i doubt that is what belief is all about.

Edited by eThErEaL

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why is it hard for sunni to admit that

1-physically

2-mentally

3-spiritually

4-intellectually

imam Ali sa was better than omar,abubaker,& othman combined

else bring forth their proof

When sunnis say that Imam Ali (a.s) is the best when it comes to spirituality then that should be seen, at the least, as a tacit agreement if not an explicit one that imam Ali (a.s) is better then the other caliphs. because to come to think about it, spirituality in its proper and true sense encompasses all features of one's existence. the spirit is not something isolated from the rest of the the qualities you have listed (i.e. physicality, mentality, intellect ect..). By spirituality sunnis and shias are talking about the perfect man. And the perfect man is perfect in everything.

The moment sunni's agree that Imam Ali (a.s) was a perfect man, what more can we possibly ask for? Unless we get the idea of an Imam being someone like the fictitious Superman...which would be sad and very shallow for us to think so.

MK

Edited by eThErEaL

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When sunnis say that Imam Ali (a.s) is the best when it comes to spirituality then that should be seen, at the least, as a tacit agreement if not an explicit one that imam Ali (a.s) is better then the other caliphs. because to come to think about it, spirituality in its proper and true sense encompasses all features of one's existence. the spirit is not something isolated from the rest of the the qualities you have listed (i.e. physicality, mentality, intellect ect..). By spirituality sunnis and shias are talking about the perfect man. And the perfect man is perfect in everything.

The moment sunni's agree that Imam Ali (a.s) was a perfect man, what more can we possibly ask for? Unless we get the idea of an Imam being someone like the fictitious Superman...which would be sad and very shallow for us to think so.

MK

And yet Imam Ali himself states that his superiority and that of the Imams over every other ashaab was based on ilm. If we subject that ilm to scrutiny, we will find it has more of a value with the physical universe.

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Putting aside the Ahlul-Bayt (as) for a minute, how do you know Abu Bakr was better than any of the other companions? Is he the best simply by virtue of having been the first caliph? If someone else had taken that position instead, would that person in turn be the "better leader" in your eyes?

I asked this question on Page 1 but nobody responded to it.

Edited by Shia Engineer

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Prove Ali (ra) Would Have Made A Better Leader :!!!:

What kind of question is this to ask a Shia? :wacko:

Shia believe imam ali was better than all the prophets (except the last Prophet)

Even Sunni hadith say that Prophet Isa(as) will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi(as) when both return to earth! Read from this link: www.answering-ansar.org Creed of Shi'a Muslims on Isa(as) praying behind Imam al-Mahdi(as)

Quote- Imam Mahdi (as)'s station shall be superior to that of Prophet Isa (as)

The superior station of Imamate is even acknowledged by Sunni Ulema. Hadith confirm that Prophet Isa (as) will pray Salat BEHIND Imam Mahdi (as) - why? Because he is representing the complete Deen whilst Isa (as) only brought a part of it:

Jalaluddin al-Suyuti mentioned that:

"I have heard some of the deniers of (truth) deny what has been conveyed about Jesus that when he descends will pray the Fajr prayer behind al-Mahdi. They say, Jesus has higher status than to pray behind a non-Prophet. This is a bizarre opinion since the issue of prayer of Jesus behind al-Mahdi has been proven strongly via numerous authentic traditions from the Messenger of Allah, who is the most truthful." And then al-Suyuti goes on narrating some of the traditions in this regard.

See Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p56

Also al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned that:

"The Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus (PBUH&HF) will come down and pray behind him."

Taken from Fat'h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362

This is also mentioned by another Sunni scholar, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, who wrote:

"The Ahlul-Bayt are like the stars through whom we are guided in the right direction, and if the starts are taken away (or hidden) we would come face to face with the signs of the Almighty as promised (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). This will happen when the Mahdi will come, as mentioned in the traditions, and the Prophet Jesus will say his prayers behind him, the Dajjal will be slain, and then the signs of the Almighty will appear one after another."

taken from al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p234) - a Book that was written AGAINST the Shi'a.

Ibn Hajar also quoted Abu al-Husain al-Ajiri saying:

The traditions of al-Mustafa (PBUH&HF) on the rising of al-Mahdi has been transmitted via numerous authorities and is more than the level of (being sufficient for) Mutawatir, describing that he is of his Ahlul-Bayt, and will fill the earth with justice, and that Jesus (as) will come at the same time and he will assist Jesus for killing al-Dajjal in the land of Palestine, and that he will lead this nation and Jesus will pray behind him.

Taken from Abu al-Husain al-Ajiri as quoted in al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p254

In Mishkat al Masabih the Rasulullah (s) narrates in the Chapter on the descent of Jesus Hadith 2, Volume 4 page 82:

"How will you be when the son of Mary will come down amongst you and your Imam will come from among you".

In the commentary of Mishkat, the statement of Sunni scholar / English translator Maulana Fazlul Karim is indeed worthy of note since it backs our argument, he writes under footnote 2363a:

"He is said to be Imam Mahdi behind whom Jesus will pray. Jesus will show by example that he is a follower of Muhammad".

So Minhajj, who will be leading this movement? Imam Mahdi (as) not Isa (as) as his rank as Leader in this circumstance is superior. Now that the truth has been made manifest let us present for the benefit of Minhajj and their Nasibi brethren their viewpoint on infallibility.

end quote.

Remember Sunnis claim that Abu Bakr allegedly led the prayer during the Prophet(SAWW)'s sickness. Leave aside the fact that other Sunni sources say he was in Syria under the command of Usamah ibn Zaid at this time; doesn't this show that Imam al-Mahdi(as) is of higher rank then Prophet Jesus(as). Also we all agree that the top Prophets(as) include Abraham(as), Moses(as), and the top 2 (most scholars I've seen say) were Prophet Jesus(as) and the final greatest Prophet; Prophet Muhammad al-Mustafa(SAWW). Again Prophet Jesus(as) will pray Salaah behind Imam al-Mahdi(as), meaning Prophet Jesus(as) will follow the leader Imam al-Mahdi(as); again just check even Sunni books.

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