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Noumenon

Why The Need Of An Imam?

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You seem to be trying to ridicule the belief in occultation; yet you hold this same belief about Prophet Jesus(as).

Isa [as] in occultation? That's news to me. Allah ta'ala has raised him to Himself and will send him back at some time. He is not hiding somewhere...doing..well I don't know what...helping lost people in the desert finding their way?

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Isa [as] in occultation? That's news to me. Allah ta'ala has raised him to Himself and will send him back at some time. He is not hiding somewhere...doing..well I don't know what...helping lost people in the desert finding their way?

So your recycling the tired nasibi garbage that we allegedly belief Imam al-Mahdi(as) is "hiding somewhere". I suppose a nasibi like you will next say we allegedly believe that Imam al-Mahdi(as) is allegedly "hiding in a cave in Samarra". It's truly pathetic that you would bring such tired wahhabi nasibi propaganda here. We true Shi'a Muslims believe Imam al-Mahdi(as) has been rised out of this world; he is in occultation meaning in the heavens with Allah(SWT). Imam al-Mahdi(as) is just like Prophet Jesus(as) in this regard; both are in occultation (in the heavens) and both will return when Allah(SWT) has decreed it.

Edited by Abdul-Rahman Brent

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abdullah, these are fancy words that could be said about anything you invent and ascribe to the noble Qur'an. Basically, you are saying the noble Qur'an is a puzzle and only the most creative ones (those who don't fear playing lego with verses) discover the hidden solution. This kind of apologetics might be a straw for you, but it's really not convincing.

Anyway could you please just answer my question?

Edited by Muhawir

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abdullah, these are fancy words that could be said about anything you invent and ascribe to the noble Qur'an. Basically, you are saying the noble Qur'an is a puzzle and only the most creative ones (those who don't fear playing lego with verses) discover the hidden solution.

Anyway could you please just answer my question?

Even you nasibis belief that you have to go to hadith to intepret the verses of the Holy Qur'an; unless of course you a deviant "Quranist" or alleged "submitter" who doesn't believe in hadith at all and claims we should just somehow "straight follow the Qur'an". In this issue we true Shi'a Muslims are just like sunnis (regarding need for hadith); we true Shi'a Muslims go to our Sahih hadith from the Masoom Holy Ahl a-Bayt(as) to learn the meaning of the Holy Qur'an Ayahs.

Edited by Abdul-Rahman Brent

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We go to hadith to look for the details, but we don't rely on hadith to declare a concept to be a fundamental core belief of Islam although it cannot be found in the noble Qur'an. Big difference.

Oh and could you please answer my question?

Edited by Muhawir

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Allright, tell me, what happens if you gave the noble Qur'an to someone who has never heard of Islam before and after reading it, ask him what Islam is about? What are the odds of him telling you:

"Muslims have to believe that at any time there is an infallible Imam who is guiding them. I guess there were twelve after Muhammad."

I'd say precisely zero.

Salams

We don't simply hand out Quran to newcomers and advise them to research and follow Islam on their own.

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So your recycling the tired nasibi garbage that we allegedly belief Imam al-Mahdi(as) is "hiding somewhere". I suppose a nasibi like you will next say we allegedly believe that Imam al-Mahdi(as) is allegedly "hiding in a cave in Samarra". It's truly pathetic that you would bring such tired wahhabi nasibi propaganda here. We true Shi'a Muslims believe Imam al-Mahdi(as) has been rised out of this world; he is in occultation meaning in the heavens with Allah(SWT). Imam al-Mahdi(as) is just like Prophet Jesus(as) in this regard; both are in occultation (in the heavens) and both will return when Allah(SWT) has decreed it.

interesting, can you back this up with some narrations?

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Brother A R Brent ... What I admire most is how you don't get tired/frustrated of attempting to elucidate these things to the brothers here with their ceaseless repetetive q's.......... May Allah give you more strength! jazakallah khayr

A nice saying of Imam Ali (as) , mentioned in the nahjul balagha comes to mind " There is enough light for those who want to see. "

Edited by Akbar007

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We don't simply hand out Quran to newcomers and advise them to research and follow Islam on their own.

I'm not saying you should do that. I'm simply asking whether you believe he has any chance of telling you about the concept of Imamat after reading the noble Qur'an. And by concept, I really mean the belief that the universe cannot exist without the presence of an infallible Imam. Not whether the word Imam occurs in the noble Qur'an.

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I'm not saying you should do that. I'm simply asking whether you believe he has any chance of telling you about the concept of Imamat after reading the noble Qur'an. And by concept, I really mean the belief that the universe cannot exist without the presence of an infallible Imam. Not whether the word Imam occurs in the noble Qur'an.

Any non-Muslim person who studies Islam logically would question themselves "what happened after the death of the Prophet(SAWW)? How is the Ummah suppose to function after the Prophet(SAWW)?" According to sunnis views the Muslims are allegedly to have "caliphs" who (as wahhabis say today) may be tyrannical and may lack any Taqwa: but we are still allegedly to follow them. However, according to true Shi'a Islam we believe Allah(SWT) created 12 Masoom Imams of the Holy Ahl al-Bayt(as) that led Islam. Now in the occultation of Imam al-Mahdi(as) and Prophet Jesus(as); we are to follow the Marjas who study and then spend their lives trying to spread and defend Islam.

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I'm not saying you should do that. I'm simply asking whether you believe he has any chance of telling you about the concept of Imamat after reading the noble Qur'an. And by concept, I really mean the belief that the universe cannot exist without the presence of an infallible Imam. Not whether the word Imam occurs in the noble Qur'an.

Salams

Firstly, you are incorrectly presenting the shia belief. The correct version is that the world cannot remain without Allah's Hujjah. It doesn't mean that the world will be destroyed by an atomic explosion which is why an Imam needs to be present in it. Rather it means that Allah has always placed a Hujjah in this world. And it is backed by hadith of Rasul and Imams.

Secondly, the fundamental principle of Imamat in shia school of thought stresses on the necessity of an Infallible Imam for the purpose of guidance in matters regarding religion and ensuring that one learns the true religion, as taught by the Prophet, rather than incorrect ideologies which found their way in muslim societies in the later decades. This concept of Imamat is very well explained with reasoning. And it is backed by the sayings of our Prophet and our Imams who have also reffered to the Quranic verses in support of the concept.

So if a newcomer is interested in the religion of Islam, he can start with the ABC first and InshaAllah move onto other topics gradually. I am sure when He reaches the verses of Quran where He is advised to follow people of knowledge or the Ulil Amr, he will question, who the Ulil Amr are. This is when He starts to learn Imamat in Quran. And so forth. In matters of Aqaed, it is upto individuals to research and find the truth. If someone is sincerely not convinced of the ideology of Imamat, then I guess we can't blame him for being honest. But if someone is busy playing argument for the sake of argument, then His niyaah is known in the court of Allah.

Fi-Amanillah

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Seriously, what's the semantical difference between the two sentences:

"the universe cannot exist without the presence of an infallible Imam."

"The correct version is that the world cannot remain without Allah's Hujjah."

I never said that the world would explode.

So to summarize your answer: Someone who reads the noble Qur'an unprejudiced will never find the Imamat on his own, it is only after he meets a couple of Shia he has a chance to see the hidden solution.

Now could you please tell me why Allah ta'ala made it such a difficult task to find the most important concept of His religion in contrast to any other fundamental belief of Islam? I fail to see why there is such a discrepancy.

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Seriously, what's the semantical difference between the two sentences:

"the universe cannot exist without the presence of an infallible Imam."

"The correct version is that the world cannot remain without Allah's Hujjah."

I never said that the world would explode.

So to summarize your answer: Someone who reads the noble Qur'an unprejudiced will never find the Imamat on his own, it is only after he meets a couple of Shia he has a chance to see the hidden solution.

Now could you please tell me why Allah ta'ala made it such a difficult task to find the most important concept of His religion in contrast to any other fundamental belief of Islam? I fail to see why there is such a discrepancy.

There are 4 stages of Quraan

1. The Text: which is readable in all sense by all who wants to read.

2. The meaning: The literal meanings and interpretations which depends how deep you want to go finding the truth or Haq. Its explanation is also sometimes unfortunately confined to the biased doctrine the reader holds. The rigidity does not sometimes allow the reader to open up hi mind and enjoy the next stage, which is

3. The Delicacy: The wisdom, the language, the style and the delicacies of Quraan who have the noor and openness to the truth. those who are close to Allah and to whom Allah is close. They are Allah's wali and Allah pours the noor on them and that the noor reveals the truth in somany angles. Just like a diamond has sooo many different angles, interpretations of ayay-e mubarika is different for different levels.

4 The Reality: The ultimate truth who are muqarrab to Zaat e haq. Its the level of the top, the messangers, Ambia e karam and imams.

take an example...............The moon remains the same.....for babies the explanation of moon is different, for toddlers its a bit in detail, for science students its technical and for astrologers its advanced technological explanation which cannot be comprehended by the former 3.

I think we shall not try to put too much burden on a toddler who doesnt have the capacity to digest. Knwoing a subject is Allah's naimat and we shall not massage our ego by trying to show the knowledge upon those who have it in some other way or he hasnt reached where you could see things clearer.

"Azmat ki pehchan ke liyay khud azeem hona zaroori hai"

"To get the essense of Greatness one has to be Gr8 himself" otherwise he cannot identify and respect the gr8ness

apologies to all who wd be offended

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This topic is an important and wide one. Don't forget that the mission of the twelfth Imam (as) is not yet finished... Rather he is the Qa'im after whose rising he will fill the Earth with righteousness and justice as it had been filled with corruption and oppression. Sunnis also believe in a Mahdi, but he's undefined and unknown to them. Their image of him has no direct connection to the Prophet (pbuh) other than in lineage. How then would he have the requisite abilities and knowledge to do what you believe he'll do? You don't believe he's a prophet (nor do we), but you also don't believe he'd have ilham (right?) or any concept of him receiving his knowledge in some infallible way. So how then would he, hundreds, thousands, or howsoever many years after the Prophet (pbuh) know these things? Can any of you today honestly claim that you know with certainty which of your various madhhabs is completely correct, if any? Which rendition of the "Sunna" is the complete and authentic one? Which belief in Tawhid is the right one? Which tafsir of the Quran is completely right, with complete knowledge of all the mansukh and nasikh, with all the meanings, contexts and so on? If none of you can say that, then what does that say about the status of this religion, the final and complete one for mankind, today? With the Twelfth Imam (as) though and the belief in nass and inherited `ilm, there's clearly a link from the Prophet (pbuh) down to him through the series of Ma`sum Imams continuing to this day, and so there's no problem with regards to either the logic behind his mission, nor in the more general idea of the perfect continuing preservation of Islam on Earth.

Edited by macisaac

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tefi, what you are doing is using flowery apologetics that doesn't solve the problem at all. It only tries to cover it up. Why am I not in need of any of this kind of apologetics when it comes to any other fundamental belief of Islam? Why don't I have to dive deeply in order to come to the conclusion that prayer is an obligation? Why don't I have to dive deeply in order to believe in prophets? Why?

Edited by Muhawir

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mac, your post is besides the point. We are not talking about who has the better Mahdi. The question rather is why does there have to be an infallible imam all the time and why isn't this concept clearly expressed like any other fundamental belief in the noble Qur'an?

You seem to imply that the Mahdi is necessary in order for us to reach certainty regarding our beliefs. Well, obviously he is not guiding you right now, and it somehow works. Or are you telling me that you are uncertain about your beliefs?

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tefi, what you are doing is using flowery apologetics that doesn't solve the problem at all. It only tries to cover it up. Why am I not in need of any of this kind of apologetics when it comes to any other fundamental belief of Islam? Why don't I have to dive deeply in order to come to the conclusion that prayer is an obligation? Why don't I have to dive deeply in order to believe in prophets? Why?

may be because Allah has given me the noor to identify the truth. May be because i am looking at things from where things are right in front of my eyes and may be you are not there to look from that angle. (the difference between Ainul yaqeen, Haqqul Yaqeen) may be your destiny is different from mine.... or maybe you dont require further ilm and is content to what explains prayers as obligation....

Dear I believe Prayer is LOVE and obligation out of LOVE. Our madhab and belief is love. Allah is love Muhemmed (SAW) is love. Allah is lover Muhemmed (SAW) is the beloved. and rest is lovestory. I am sorry if you dont get it and believe otherwise. I am not here to judge your faith and nobody has right to judge mine. Its only that i tried to to show another angle to it. I cant help it if you cannot understand it ..... digestion is a far fetched idea.

I just want to add that i believe that there is a dire need of imam ALWAYS but why do we stick to only 12 of them. my APOLOGY IS NOT JUST FLOWERY NOTION......it is indeed a manner to show that i dont wanna impose or force my views on others. and if someone thinks so then i didnt actually mean it.

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So to summarize your answer: Someone who reads the noble Qur'an unprejudiced will never find the Imamat on his own, it is only after he meets a couple of Shia he has a chance to see the hidden solution.

Now could you please tell me why Allah ta'ala made it such a difficult task to find the most important concept of His religion in contrast to any other fundamental belief of Islam? I fail to see why there is such a discrepancy.

What difficult task are you talking about ? Is it a difficult task to seek clarification of the meanings of several Quranic verses/titles reffering to Imamat ? If you think you can simply use your common sense to understand every ideology of Islam from Quran, can you explain the verse Alif Laam Meem on your own [Don't copy/paste scholarly work] ? Can a new comer guess what Allah means in this verse ? If not, care to tell me why Allah made it so difficult for others to understand 2:1 ?

Perhaps an easy way to help you digest our ideology of Imamat is by firstly agreeing that all of us believe in Tauheed and Risalat. Now why is it a matter of question if our Holy Prophet and His beloved family have clarified the meaning of several verses of Quran and advised that those verses refer to Imamat ? If we believe in Risalat, shouldn't we believe in Imamat by default since it is one of the teachings of our Rasul ? Why do we have to become stubborn and ignore the teachings of our Prophet regarding Imamat just becuase we can't find a direct fatwa on Imamat in Quran Shareef ?

Seriously, what's the semantical difference between the two sentences:

"the universe cannot exist without the presence of an infallible Imam."

"The correct version is that the world cannot remain without Allah's Hujjah."

The difference is the implied meaning. The way you have expressed the belief makes it sound like an over exxagerated idea. The way I have expressed it is appropriate and doesn't lead to misconception of any sort.

Fi-Amanillah

Edited by inshaAllah

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mac, your post is besides the point. We are not talking about who has the better Mahdi. The question rather is why does there have to be an infallible imam all the time and why isn't this concept clearly expressed like any other fundamental belief in the noble Qur'an?

You seem to imply that the Mahdi is necessary in order for us to reach certainty regarding our beliefs. Well, obviously he is not guiding you right now, and it somehow works. Or are you telling me that you are uncertain about your beliefs?

It seems you've missed my point... In terms of having a need for an infallible Imam all the time, even if he is in ghayba, I pointed to the necessity of a continuing preservation of Islam on Earth till Yaum al-Qiyama. Even if it is only with a single person, it is vital that someone have that perfect knowledge of the deen, else, where is Islam in all its truth? With all the ikhtilaf of your fuqaha and scholars, how can any of you honestly claim that this religion has been perfectly preserved? Do our scholars have ikhtilaf? Yes, they do, however we also believe that there's still someone on Earth with perfect and certain knowledge of the truth of the religion, so there's no problem in terms of whether this religion has been preserved. You guys seem to only focus on whether the letters of the Quran have been preserved, but ignore the importance of whether it's meaning has been.

In terms of your second question, where is this in Quran, then if you read the Quran in Arabic you should already know that walayat is one of the most frequently mentioned things in the book. That's what we're talking about here. Also, the importance of the Messengers' families and the inheritance amongst them is also present. In terms of the word "Imam" itself, yes that is also there (in its singular and plural forms we find it mentioned twelve times in the mashaf), such as when it was bestowed on Ibrahim (as) after he was already a Nabi and Rasul (2:124), which also links it with his progeny and the requisite of sinlessness for it to be passed down.

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may be because Allah has given me the noor to identify the truth. May be because i am looking at things from where things are right in front of my eyes and may be you are not there to look from that angle. (the difference between Ainul yaqeen, Haqqul Yaqeen) may be your destiny is different from mine.... or maybe you dont require further ilm and is content to what explains prayers as obligation....

and maybe..just maybe it's because you have decided to bent the Qur'an to your prior beliefs so you see things that don't exist and interpret things in contrary to the obvious meaning and leave out the context when it doesn't suit you and play lego whenever it helps your cause.

You see all your general explanation could be easily brought forth by a Qadyani who believes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was mentioned in the noble Qur'an or any "submitter" who believes that Rashid Khalifah was appointed a prophet in the noble Qur'an, well even a sect that believes in green aliens could claim that they have a special insight into verses that "unsincere" people just don't have. This is a very dangerous approach.

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and maybe..just maybe it's because you have decided to bent the Qur'an to your prior beliefs so you see things that don't exist and interpret things in contrary to the obvious meaning and leave out the context when it doesn't suit you and play lego whenever it helps your cause.

You see all your general explanation could be easily brought forth by a Qadyani who believes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was mentioned in the noble Qur'an or any "submitter" who believes that Rashid Khalifah was appointed a prophet in the noble Qur'an, well even a sect that believes in green aliens could claim that they have a special insight into verses that "unsincere" people just don't have. This is a very dangerous approach.

Well, since you admit that the text can be twisted around to suit whatever ideology one is promoting, doesn't that in itself point to the need of a continuing, appointed, and ma`sum authority on Earth after the Prophet (pbuh) to guard against such deviations and carry the completely correct understanding of the book?

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What difficult task are you talking about ? Is it a difficult task to seek clarification of the meanings of several Quranic verses/titles reffering to Imamat ? If you think you can simply use your common sense to understand every ideology of Islam from Quran, can you explain the verse Alif Laam Meem on your own [Don't copy/paste scholarly work] ? Can a new comer guess what Allah means in this verse ? If not, care to tell me why Allah made it so difficult for others to understand 2:1 ?

I am talking about the difficulty that an unprejudiced reader of the noble Qur'an will have in identifying the concept of Imaamat. Didn't we agree that there is no way he would come back and tell you that muslims believe in the necessity of an infallible Imam at all times? So obviously there is a difficulty.

Now are you seriously telling me that when a non-Muslim reads verses that mention the word Imam he will stand flabbergasted without being able to make any meaning out of the verse and come rushing to you so you can tell him that these are the infallibles? Are you telling me that these verses are of the same semantical quality like Alif - Lam - Mim? Well, I can relieve you, there is no need to understand the meaning of the latter verse in order to be a good muslim, nor am I aware of anyone who ever claimed that knowing the meaning of these verses is a fundamental part of Islam. (except maybe for strange sects that recognize a hidden code that points to their green aliens).

Or do you think the poor reader will come back to you and say: "I have no idea what Islam is about. I stopped reading after Alif-Lam-Mim, it got me so confused. Please tell me now!"

Perhaps an easy way to help you digest our ideology of Imamat is by firstly agreeing that all of us believe in Tauheed and Risalat. Now why is it a matter of question if our Holy Prophet and His beloved family have clarified the meaning of several verses of Quran and advised that those verses refer to Imamat ? If we believe in Risalat, shouldn't we believe in Imamat by default since it is one of the teachings of our Rasul ? Why do we have to become stubborn and ignore the teachings of our Prophet regarding Imamat just becuase we can't find a direct fatwa on Imamat in Quran Shareef ?

Nobody is objecting to the Prophetic commentary of the noble Qur'an. But isn't it a valid question to ask why no such commentary is necessary when it comes to any other fundamental concept of belief? It makes no sense and hence raises doubts about your assumption that the Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] told us about the Imaamat the way you understand it.

The difference is the implied meaning. The way you have expressed the belief makes it sound like an over exxagerated idea. The way I have expressed it is appropriate and doesn't lead to misconception of any sort.

So by looking at a sentence that is almost identical to yours you can tell what my intention is? Wow!

Edited by Muhawir

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Well, since you admit that the text can be twisted around to suit whatever ideology one is promoting, doesn't that in itself point to the need of a continuing, appointed, and ma`sum authority on Earth after the Prophet (pbuh) to guard against such deviations and carry the completely correct understanding of the book?

very very true.......i intend to confess all. Although i am a true sunni believer but the knowledge, background strength and logic with common sense are a few things which i find better in many ways than we have in our sunni brothers.... who tend to revert to emotions rather than facts. And thats by the way is besides having much more firm and knowledge base than shiis have. Why do we always behave like this. why do we make others repel from our behaviours and attitude rather than attracting them. Is that what we are taught?

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mac, you are explaining water after a long effort with water. Why does there have to be a single person on earth that has a perfect knowledge of Islam? What difference does it make if he is not around anyway? And it seems you are now contradicting your brother who was telling me that the Mahdi has been raised just like Isa (alaihi as-Salam). The religion has been preserved in the noble Qur'aan and the sunnah of our Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] and that's enough. On the other hand, you seem to imply that there can be no final nabi (note I'm not talking abour rasul) but rather that there always must be a nabi around.

And surprsingly, you didn't answer my question. Do you consider yourself to be guided with certainty? If yes, then obviously it is possible without access to the mahdi and if not, then how does the mahdi help you?

Whether you believe that Islam has been preserved in form of a living person or not is irrelevant for your state as long as you don't have access to that person.

And no we are not talking about some undefined wilayah, but rather about the concept that there always has to be an infallible imam for this world to exist. And we already agreed that it is impossible for an unprejudiced reader to find this concept in the noble Qur'an without external help.

Edited by Muhawir

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I am talking about the difficulty that an unprejudiced reader of the noble Qur'an will have in identifying the concept of Imaamat. Didn't we agree that there is no way he would come back and tell you that muslims believe in the necessity of an infallible Imam at all times? So obviously there is a difficulty.

It gets difficult when we do not read each other's post thoroughly. I have already explained it to you that one does not need to find an explicit fatwa in Quran saying, "Ali is the first 'Imam' after the Prophet and so are the rest of the 11 Imams after Him". Just like Allah advises us to offer prayers but has not advised how to offer prayers, Allah has also advised to follow His Authorities, other than the Prophet. So then it is upto us to consult the Messenger to confirm who are the Authorities, just like we would have consulted the Prophet to confirm how to offer prayers.

Take the example of an unprejudiced reader. Say he reads the verse, 4:59, "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority....". This verse is telling him in a very clear manner that other than God and the Messenger, He is also supposed to follow 'those who are in authority - the ulil Amr'. So Quran lays the foundation of Imamat by explicitly stating that Muslims are to follow Allah, the Messenger and the Ulil Amr. The question is, who are Ulil Amr. Now if the reader is unprejudiced, wouldn't he research the teachings of the Prophet or other scholarly works to find out whom Allah is reffering to in this verse ?

Salams

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Well, since you admit that the text can be twisted around to suit whatever ideology one is promoting, doesn't that in itself point to the need of a continuing, appointed, and ma`sum authority on Earth after the Prophet pbuh.gif to guard against such deviations and carry the completely correct understanding of the book?

If that were true, then we are in deep trouble as he doesn't seem to help us in finding the true meaning right now. If you have a twisted agenda, I don't believe even the Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] could have convinced you, let alone someone else.

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mac, you are explaining water after a long effort with water. Why does there have to be a single person on earth that has a perfect knowledge of Islam? What difference does it make if he is not around anyway? And it seems you are now contradicting your brother who was telling me that the Mahdi has been raised just like Isa (alaihi as-Salam). The religion has been preserved in the noble Qur'aan and the sunnah of our Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] and that's enough. On the other hand, you seem to imply that there can be no final nabi (note I'm not talking abour rasul) but rather that there always must be a nabi around.

And surprsingly, you didn't answer my question. Do you consider yourself to be guided with certainty? If yes, so obviously it is possible without access to the mahdi and if not, then how does the mahdi help you?

Whether you believe that Islam has been preserved in form of a living person or not is irrelevant for your state as long as you don't have access to that person.

Bro. Can you drive a car or play tennis by just reading coaching manual? You need a role model who wd coach you and then train you. Similarly Islam also requires someone to train and coach otherwise quraan wd be just a manual and nothing else. Imam is a role in soul performing duties in personified form. The personality is the same, persons are different. Just like water remains same, containers are different. When you want water you call it by its reality and not the container. Similarly Imam is the reality, person is the holder of the reality.

And that reality does exist all the time.....not in some oblivion but in all form and essense. this needs continuity and ghayabt is not the answer. We need living imam or teacher.

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inshaAllah, you aren't getting my point. My question is precisely, why does that reader have to do additional research on external sources in order to find the most important fundamental concept of Islam in complete contrast to any other fundamental belief?

I'm not argueing whether Imamate is valid or not, I'm just surprised that there is such a big difference in the way we are supposed to reach this fundamental belief in contrast to any other belief that we all agree on.

Bro. Can you drive a car or play tennis by just reading coaching manual? You need a role model who wd coach you and then train you. Similarly Islam also requires someone to train and coach otherwise quraan wd be just a manual and nothing else.

I agree with you. So now where is he?

Edited by Muhawir

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inshaAllah, you aren't getting my point. My question is precisely, why does that reader have to do additional research on external sources in order to find the most important fundamental concept of Islam in complete contrast to any other fundamental belief?

I'm not argueing whether Imamate is valid or not, I'm just surprised that there is such a big difference in the way we are supposed to reach this fundamental belief in contrast to any other belief that we all agree on.

Bro you are starting to debate like Quranists. Every fundamental principle of Islam requires additional research and reliance on the teachings of Infallible Guides. In your case, you only have the Prophet's recorded teachings. In our case, we also have the Immaculate family of the Prophet.

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I am not. In fact, I am vehemently opposing the way "Quranis" approach the Qur'an. What these guys do is to look for hidden codes to define their beliefs instead of relying on clear sources.

Every fundamental principle of Islam requires additional research and reliance on the teachings of Infallible Guides. In your case, you only have the Prophet's recorded teachings. In our case, we also have the Immaculate family of the Prophet.

That's not true. Tell me what other research do I need in order to reach the conclusion that there is only One worthy of being worshipped, namely Allah ta'ala?

What additional research do I need to believe in the Angels, Prophets, Books, Day of Judgment, Divine Decree? None. They are all explicitely mentioned hundreds of times so that even the dumbest will not fail to see them. That's the reason why we all agree about these fundamental concepts in principle. And that's precisely the reason why our unprejudiced reader will definitely tell you about them.

Of course, there are differences when it comes to details. But no Muslim would argue that there are no Angels.

Edited by Muhawir

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I agree with you. So now where is he?

HE (a) is in ghaibat e kubra Ya Allah send him back to us for Revange of Shehzada e Ali Akbar...

My brother Muhawir,

now days we hv naib e imam(a) with us just to guidence.

The One Name is Syed Ali Khamnayee®

Edited by khaibershikan

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inshaAllah, you aren't getting my point. My question is precisely, why does that reader have to do additional research on external sources in order to find the most important fundamental concept of Islam in complete contrast to any other fundamental belief?

I'm not argueing whether Imamate is valid or not, I'm just surprised that there is such a big difference in the way we are supposed to reach this fundamental belief in contrast to any other belief that we all agree on.

I agree with you. So now where is he?

Firstly it depends on the quantum of thirst you have. If you are content with basics of it then you might not be interested in additional delicacies.

Now where the Imam is a bit of a tricky question. Dhoondnay se khuda bhi mil jata hai. See i said reality of the Imam is noor. A noor which is way beyond any lineage or linkages. It is pure absolute noor and only noor can lead to the noor. If you have noor, then this noor will lead you to imam......only and only if you have that thirst. u c Allah has his own wisdom.....he is keeping His reality un announced due to some divine reason.... Show your thirst.... and you will see that Allah will bring you to the well!!!!! ^_^

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Very simple question for those who reject the existence of Imam (aj).

Surah Qadr

1 Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.

2 Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!

3 The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.

5 (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.

To whom do the angels and "the Spirit" (i.e. Gabriel (pbuh) according to Sunnis) descend with all decrees?

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