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Sadiq M...

[Closed/Review]Sistani: Zanjir Should Be Avoided

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ok.... next question, if you all think (the disenters) that zanjeer etc is biddah and haram then why do you all hit your chest? is this not the same but with no blood? how is you hitting you chest not a biddah as well?

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Aslam Alikum,

:) Nice debate. I have to say this is quite an antique debate in the end people will do as they see fit. Image issue is correct because imagine how other's react. Yes the hadiths are there to show for matams. What I don't get though is that these Hadith are from "heat of the moment" i.e. they were done with overrealming reaction and the grief that lasted beyond years. Problem with us is that people do matam then they sit down to eat and chat away about anything. Oh he has a nice car this and that now the people who the hadiths are about did not do so. No one yet mentioned what Hazrat Measom (as) sacrificed which is so sad because he gave his life in sermons. The problem is when you argue this with someone they will say "whose pain is greater in this yours or the Imams (as)? Then why did no Imam (as) did matam?" surely if they know all and see all and have knowledge hidden then they must see kerbala every second of their life. Now someone passes away the actual contribution is namaz e janaza rather than mum or wife hitting her self. Another problem with Shia community is every mulana or alim they ask one question, are zanjeer allowed. If he goes yes to a group which does not do zanjeer that group says he’s no mulana while it works other way round to that people stop listening to people who have the knowledge. They will go to the doctor when they are ill because he has done a degree lasting 5years but they will not accept the view of someone who has studied faith for 15years. But then again it is a "view". There are no hadiths banning matam or zanjeers but there are no hadiths for it. In the obviously hierarchy on life Allah, Mohammad (saw), Ali (as), Fatima (as), Hassan (as), Hussain (as) one can certainly say that Imams would prefer prayers over matam. That should be agreed by anyone because Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zaqat, Khums. If you don't agree then well I don't really care. Matam does bring a flare into a majlis I mean would Shiism spread without matam?? But then where is the line drawn? Where are the limits? Firstly all people should read the Quran in their own language. So that they know what the "message" is. Second namaz is vital and is prefer by Allah. Then if someone wants to show their flare by done something one cannot argue because we don't know the emotional state of that person. As far as damage to the body is concern any movement carries some effect on the system of body in physiological terms. Maybe matam to the extremely such as zanjeer and qama should not be done or maybe it should be done by those who feel they OWE this to the Imams (as). Some of us wait for Imam Mehdi (as) listen to sermons while others show their blood. Form of prayer I do not know, surely it is not obligatory and following Imams (as)'s ways of lives it is in their prayers but they if Allah accepts one thing as a good deed even though it may hurt another than he may accept something which is not a prayer as a prayer depending on the person's heart. Like in all cases the intentions and motive count ALWAYS when it comes to Allah. We cannot say we do something to please Imams (as) and Allah will understand because Imams (as) ALWAYS seaked the pleasure of Allah. It is Allah who knows what we have in our hearts and souls. Both sides of the arguments are convincing but if someone does not believe its a form of prayer please do not enforce your views because for some people attaining knowledge is the way to become stronger which for others attaining money. Lets just to this. Paths to heaven are simple. To each is own path. Let me know what you guys think and its a small world no point argument amongst ourselves why not just be understanding and be a big family like the Prophet (saw).

Take care

Peace

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(salam)

Here's my 2 cents worth though a little bit off-topic...

I think Shias should wake up and look out the window..

There's a zionist enemy working day & nigh to destroy us.. Why not do Zanjeer on them instead? ;)

Just a thought :)

Regards,

Kumail

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I agree, it has no religious backing. And I agree maybe the niyyat of those who participate in zanjeer is sincere. But sister, don't we have to look at the results? We have to understand, it is not zanjeer that has kept alive the love of Hussain (as), historically zanjeer zani wasn't done until much after our Imam Mahdi (as). So from when the Imam went into hiding until zanjeer started, was the love of Hussain (as) lost? No. Azadari in general has kept the love of Hussain (as) alive, but Azadari does not equate zanjeer. Zanjeer has a negative effect on those looking from the outside. Heck, even shias who know and love Hussain (as) are disturbed by zanjeer, what about those that don't yet even know Hussain (as)? Imam Hussain (as) had a goal in Kerbala and that was that the true form of Islam prevail. If we are not working to attract people to the true Islam and instead are pushing people away from the true Islam with zanjeer, then at the end of the day Islam will never spread across our own borders and that is 100% against the mission of Imam Hussain (as).

Brother, even matam is "biddah". Reciting nauhas is biddah. Wearing black clothes is biddah.

Next you know we will have people telling us that we should sit at home on Ashura and play video games because every form of azadari is "biddah".

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Aslam Alikum,

This debate will never end but what I want to know from brother Hasan Sajjad is what is this "President" doing after his name :o, don't take it the wrong way but he is from America and last time I heard America had bush :)

Peace

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if people are so terrified of getting a "bad impression" of islam, what exactly will happen? they will kill us? ridicule us? leave shiaism? cos guess what guys. ITS ALWAYS BEEN HAPPENING ANYWAY.

shouldnt we concentrate on slightly more disturbing things than azadari?

- the revolutionary guard

- public hangings

- misyar marriage

- sex with children (under 16), is the legal age for marriage in iran REALLY 9 years old?

- al-khoei jnrs murder in najaf and the reasons behind it

- the now infamous "sex fatwas"

- iranian poverty and political scandals

- paki shia/ ISI links with the taliban

we all know i could make this list a lot longer. but im sure you get my point.

but lets all shake our fingers and chat [Edited Out] about azadari guys. you bunch of sheep, by focusing on shias doing azadari you just shut ur eyes against whats going on in our world, and the things that REALLY give the world a bad impression about us, just like sunnis blind themselves about their sahabi.

no, zanjeer zani wasnt around at the time of imam mehdi, the niyyat however, WAS. in fact the niyyat was there at the time of hazrat owais al qarni and others. acts of devotion have different rules.

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if that list is so important, how does zanjeer address any of those issues?

As for mohib, he still appears to be struggling with the concept of bida.

At least the malangs admitted zanjeer is not part of the religion.

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if that list is so important, how does zanjeer address any of those issues?

As for mohib, he still appears to be struggling with the concept of bida.

At least the malangs admitted zanjeer is not part of the religion.

Generally, to prove a thing to be bida you must have a proof, i.e., a proof that doing Zanjeer is bida because it is said... in the Quran or Ahadith that it is Bida?

Any proof for not doing it? If not then don't ask proofs for doing it. And, by the way, I thought their is no taqleed in matters of Aqaid(Usool), and zanjeer comes under that isnt't or has that been dragged in to Furoo.

Syeda Zainab hit her head with a stone and that is enough for us. It is not some rocket science that writing letters and sending it through post men transformed in to sending e-mails. The same way some people still use rocks and some use zanjeer and knifes.

Or you must prove that e-mail is a bida.

Ya Ali Madad

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bida is making something waajib that was not made waajib by the masomeen, or banning something they allowed. zanjeer does not fall into either category.

iraqi shia does ur iq drop with every key you press on the keyboard? how many times have i said the same thing now?

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^B/c taraweeh with the niyah of furada is simply a nafl prayer and not bidah.

Prove it.

There is no evidence the Prophet ever prayed any prayer of that sort, in public or private.

The prophet Prayed Tahajjud (salatul layl). There is no proof tha he ever prayed "Taraweeh".

Narrated Abu Salma bin 'Abdur Rahman:

I asked 'Aisha, "How is the prayer of Allah's Apostle during the month of Ramadan." She said, "Allah's Apostle never exceeded eleven Rakat in Ramadan or in other months;he used to offer four Rakat-- do not ask me about their beauty and length, then four Rakat, do not ask me about their beauty and length, and then three Rakat." Aisha further said, "I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Do you sleep before offering the Witr prayer?' He replied, 'O 'Aisha! My eyes sleep but my heart remains awake'!"

Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 21, Number 248

This was Tahajjud Prayers.

This BS about "taraweeh" was made up by umar, the prophet never prayed any sort of 20 rakat prayer (as the sunnis claim).

There is no proof the propeht ever prayed any such prayer. So how could it be Mustahab in faradah?

Edited by Al-Mufeed

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Syeda Zainab hit her head with a stone and that is enough for us. It is not some rocket science that writing letters and sending it through post men transformed in to sending e-mails. The same way some people still use rocks and some use zanjeer and knifes.

Ya Ali Madad

Did Imam Ali Zainal Abideen hit himself on the head with a stone...or any other Imams after Hussain (as) did it? When expressing the Love to Hussain (as) and the remembrance of Ashuura / Karbala, what actually all the Imams did?

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Prove it.

There is no evidence the Prophet ever prayed any prayer of that sort, in public or private.

The prophet Prayed Tahajjud (salatul layl). There is no proof tha he ever prayed "Taraweeh".

Narrated Abu Salma bin 'Abdur Rahman:

I asked 'Aisha, "How is the prayer of Allah's Apostle during the month of Ramadan." She said, "Allah's Apostle never exceeded eleven Rakat in Ramadan or in other months;he used to offer four Rakat-- do not ask me about their beauty and length, then four Rakat, do not ask me about their beauty and length, and then three Rakat." Aisha further said, "I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Do you sleep before offering the Witr prayer?' He replied, 'O 'Aisha! My eyes sleep but my heart remains awake'!"

Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 21, Number 248

This was Tahajjud Prayers.

This BS about "taraweeh" was made up by umar, the prophet never prayed any sort of 20 rakat prayer (as the sunnis claim).

There is no proof the propeht ever prayed any such prayer. So how could it be Mustahab in faradah?

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1743322

w/s

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, even matam is "biddah". Reciting nauhas is biddah. Wearing black clothes is biddah.

No, this isn't bid'a at all. There are many famous narrations about eulogies being recited during the times of the Aimmah (as), and in their presence. You will find them in this compilation of 40 narrations regarding the rememberance/commemoration of the tragedy of Karbala:

A'zadari- 40 Hadith

The beating of the chest was a common method of expressing grief. There are narrations (in Sunni books) about the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) mourning in this manner, and in fact of the Prophet (pbuh) himself beating his chest. You will most probably find these at answering-ansar.org.

Edited by Asadollah

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I know. I was being sarcastic when I called them biddah.

By the logic being followed here, unless you have a mutawatir hadith to prove that the Imams themselves recited nauhas or wore black clothes, all of this can be categorized as "biddah".

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You mean according to your marja right?

Why dont you post the fatwas of other marjas on this issue?

Imam al-Baqir (‘a) and Imam al-Sadiq (‘a) were asked about the permissibility of praying optional prayers in congregation during the nights of Ramadan. They both narrated a tradition of the Prophet (s) where he said:

“Verily, the offering of nafila (recommended prayers) in congregation during the nights of Ramadan is an INNOVATION. O people! do not say nafila prayers of Ramadan in congregation…. Without doubt, performing a minor act of worship which is according to the sunna is better than performing a major act of worship which is an innovation.

[al-Hurr al-`Amili, Wasaâil al-Shi`ah, volume 8, page 45]

I cant wait for the Dhaeef label to be slapped on the above hadith! :lol:

Edited by A follower

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look people, it is biddah whn we say it is a part of the religion! no one who does any of these things say it is a part of Islam but rather a part of thier heart. what is a matter of the heart is just that.

if we are so worried about how outsiders perceive us then our women need to quit wearing hijab as this is also a bad impression! we need to just give up and beocme christians if we are so worried about how others percieve us!

this is all ridiculous...... i can say personally i would not do this but as it is not a part of the religion anyone who wants can say I dont personally want to.....or I personally want to... it is choice!

it is only a biddah when they say you have to and it is part of being shia... when the reality is no one has ever said this all they say is we want and this is how we show our emotions and so this is fine......

we give bad impression everyday we do not succomb to the ways of the rest of the world.... we will not please them! it is better to please our creator!

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You mean according to your marja right?

Why dont you post the fatwas of other marjas on this issue?

Imam al-Baqir (‘a) and Imam al-Sadiq (‘a) were asked about the permissibility of praying optional prayers in congregation during the nights of Ramadan. They both narrated a tradition of the Prophet (s) where he said:

“Verily, the offering of nafila (recommended prayers) in congregation during the nights of Ramadan is an INNOVATION. O people! do not say nafila prayers of Ramadan in congregation…. Without doubt, performing a minor act of worship which is according to the sunna is better than performing a major act of worship which is an innovation.

[al-Hurr al-`Amili, Wasaâil al-Shi`ah, volume 8, page 45]

I cant wait for the Dhaeef label to be slapped on the above hadith! :lol:

Please read the reply carefully. Sayed Fadhlallah's reply is about praying with the niyah of furada. Whereas, the hadith is about CONGREGATION. Big difference bro.

w/s

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I cant wait for the Dhaeef label to be slapped on the above hadith! :lol:

It's not daif. :)

ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÈÃÓÇäíÏå Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ æãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã æÇáÝÖíá Ãäåã ÓÃáæÇ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ÇáÈÇÞÑ æÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå ÇáÕÇÏÞ ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã )

w/s

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(bismillah)

(salam)

No, this isn't bid'a at all. There are many famous narrations about eulogies being recited during the times of the Aimmah (as), and in their presence. You will find them in this compilation of 40 narrations regarding the rememberance/commemoration of the tragedy of Karbala:

A'zadari- 40 Hadith

The beating of the chest was a common method of expressing grief. There are narrations (in Sunni books) about the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) mourning in this manner, and in fact of the Prophet (pbuh) himself beating his chest. You will most probably find these at answering-ansar.org.

Nice info,

They are still desperate, so expect all sorts of tricks .

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(salam)

I have not read the whole thread but I would like to share something.

I was once Sunni. When I learned about Shia and saw that they did zanjeer I was completely turned off by them. I thought Shia were crazy people and that the opinion of Shia being astray must be true. I saw nothing of Rasulullah (s.) in what they were doing. Especially because those who were doing it were proud of what they were doing, as though all Muslims should do it. Some Shia sisters told me that they were morning for Imam Husayn (a.s.) but it made no sense to me or the other Sunni sisters that I was with.

It wasn't until a few years later when I learned about important events in our history and learn about what the Prophet (s.) said about his Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) that I accepted the waliyah of Imam 'Ali (a.s.).

So those Shia would think by doing zanjeer they are helping to convey the message of Imam Husayn (a.s.), they are wrong. All they are doing is working against the message of Imam Husayn (a.s.). He never asked us to morn for him in such a way. His actions was to awaken the ummah and let us see that we have strayed far from the religion of Prophet Muhammad (s.). His purpose was to get us to act and reform.

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(salam)

I have not read the whole thread but I would like to share something.

I was once Sunni. When I learned about Shia and saw that they did zanjeer I was completely turned off by them. I thought Shia were crazy people and that the opinion of Shia being astray must be true. I saw nothing of Rasulullah (s.) in what they were doing. Especially because those who were doing it were proud of what they were doing, as though all Muslims should do it. Some Shia sisters told me that they were morning for Imam Husayn (a.s.) but it made no sense to me or the other Sunni sisters that I was with.

so, you found out about imam hussain after watching zanjeer zani?

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so, you found out about imam hussain after watching zanjeer zani?

No, I knew about Imam Husayn (a.s.) from school. I went Al-Iman school. I met a lot of Shi'a there. Incidentally that was the same place where I saw them slicing themselves.

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Please read the reply carefully. Sayed Fadhlallah's reply is about praying with the niyah of furada. Whereas, the hadith is about CONGREGATION. Big difference bro.

w/s

May I suggest going through the thread you linked. Your statement above has already been answered in that thread :)

And why dont you put the fatwas of other marjas on the issue?

It's not daif. :)

ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÈÃÓÇäíÏå Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ æãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã æÇáÝÖíá Ãäåã ÓÃáæÇ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ÇáÈÇÞÑ æÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå ÇáÕÇÏÞ ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã )

w/s

According to who it is not Daif? Allama Majlisi? Shaykh Saduq? Sayyid Khoei? Allama Hilli?

Edited by A follower

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ase read the reply carefully. Sayed Fadhlallah's reply is about praying with the niyah of furada. Whereas, the hadith is about CONGREGATION. Big difference bro.

The only thing I can infer from this rulling is that Fadhlullah is allowing a biddah to take place.

I want proof that Taraweeh is a nafil prayer.

I want just ONE hadeeth stating that the prophet prayed TARAWEEH not Tahajjud in private or public.

Just ONE hadeeth.

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May I suggest going through the thread you linked. Your statement above has already been answered in that thread :)

And why dont you put the fatwas of other marjas on the issue?

Why dont you post the fatwas of other marjas? Atleast the fatwa of one you follow.

According to who it is not Daif? Allama Majlisi? Shaykh Saduq? Sayyid Khoei? Allama Hilli?

I don't think there's any sharah of wasail ash-shia. With my limited knowledge, I checked the narrators in the book of rijal and couldn't find any evidence of them being weak or unreliable.

ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÈÃÓÇäíÏå Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ æãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã æÇáÝÖíá Ãäåã ÓÃáæÇ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ÇáÈÇÞÑ æÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå ÇáÕÇÏÞ ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã )

The other chain mentioned is: ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä ÇÈä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÍãÇÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ÍÑíÒ ¡ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ æãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã æÇáÝÖíá ¡ ãËáå

w/s

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Why dont you post the fatwas of other marjas? Atleast the fatwa of one you follow.

I am not the one going around making one marjas fatwa the authority like you are doing. You very well know yourself that many other marjas differ with Sayed Fadullah on his rulings.

If and when I make a claim I will sure to post the fatwas of the other marjas as well as mine so far I have not made any claim. If you cannot provide the rulings of the other marjas then just say so.

I don't think there's any sharah of wasail ash-shia. With my limited knowledge, I checked the narrators in the book of rijal and couldn't find any evidence of them being weak or unreliable.

I see

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The only thing I can infer from this rulling is that Fadhlullah is allowing a biddah to take place.

I want proof that Taraweeh is a nafil prayer.

I want just ONE hadeeth stating that the prophet prayed TARAWEEH not Tahajjud in private or public.

Just ONE hadeeth.

Bro, haven't you read hadith about Prophet(saw) praying 2-rakah nafl prayers?

You know very well that Sunni muslims pray taraweeh in 2-rakahs pairs and they sum-up to 8 or 20 rakahs. In shi'a fiqh, we are allowed to pray 2-rakah nafl prayers as many as we like. Now what is wrong if we pray with them 2-rakah prayers 4 or 10 times with the niyah of furada?

Hope you get the point.

w/s

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^In congregation? No.

But as furada? Its just like nafl prayers so what's wrong in it?

You skipped my question: what is wrong if we pray with them 2-rakah prayers 4 or 10 times with the niyah of furada?

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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