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toyibonline

Abu Talib (ra)

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We are told even in authentic Sunni hadith that the Prophet(SAWW) said he was from Imam Ali(as); and Imam Ali(as) was from him(SAWW). This means the Masoom Holy Ahl al-Bayt(as), which includes the Prophet Muhammad al-Mustafa(SAWW), are intricately linked in soul, spirit, and the Noor they were created from by Allah(SWT).

Nice try Brent. However, that would also mean that Jalbeeb (raa) is also "intricately linked in soul, spirit, and the Noor they were created from by Allah(SWT)". (Sahih Muslim, 2472)

=)

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Nice try Brent. However, that would also mean that Jalbeeb (raa) is also "intricately linked in soul, spirit, and the Noor they were created from by Allah(SWT)". (Sahih Muslim, 2472)

=)

Who is jalbeeb? Also I was pointing out how both our Sahih hadith and your hadith have narrations that tell of Imam Ali(as) being the "Gate of Knowledge" to the Prophet(SAWW); and linked with the Prophet(SAWW) via Noor from Allah(SWT).

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I don't know anything on the subject.

Well I believe that, as an independant unbiased scholar, you should learn more about this issue, since it refers to the marriage of a Muslimah with a perceived non-Muslim. In which case, we have to either accept that Islam allows the marriage of a muslimah with a non-muslim or that the the wife of Abu Talib was married to a muslim.

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Who is jalbeeb? Also I was pointing out how both our Sahih hadith and your hadith have narrations that tell of Imam Ali(as) being the "Gate of Knowledge" to the Prophet(SAWW); and linked with the Prophet(SAWW) via Noor from Allah(SWT).

No you weren't. =p

You said:

We are told even in authentic Sunni hadith that the Prophet(SAWW) said he was from Imam Ali(as); and Imam Ali(as) was from him(SAWW).

The Prophet (pbuh) says in an authentic hadith, "I am from him (Jalbeeb) and he is from me."

Well I believe that, as an independant unbiased scholar, you should learn more about this issue, since it refers to the marriage of a Muslimah with a perceived non-Muslim. In which case, we have to either accept that Islam allows the marriage of a muslimah with a non-muslim or that the the wife of Abu Talib was married to a muslim.

Sure, I don't mind learning this stuff. Thanks for the advice.

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(You are not addressed, but I loved the ٱááå guides, which I know he wants ÈٱáãåÊÏíä)

The saying: (You are not addressed by loved) said landed in the Abi Talib, peace be upon him, the Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and his family used to say, my brother Say No god but God Paljhr Nfk the Day of Resurrection and says: Oh, I know my brother Ben myself (and I myself I) When Matt saw Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib, when the Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and his family when he spoke of death the top of his voice, "The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and his family: As I did not hear it and I hope that will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection, and Allah bless him and his family: if I primarily in the welcome to my father, accompanied by my mother and my brother I had Moakhia in ignorance.

translation if any1 was looking for.. bro correct me if sumthing is wrong in here as i used google language tools!

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http://altafsir.org/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=4&...p;UserProfile=0

Does anyone have any thoughts on this narration that is recorded by Al-Qummi on the death of Abu Talib as a kaffir?

One, there is no isnad listed for this narration. Two, the narration doesn't actually say he died as a kafir. Rather it's about whether he declared the kalima out loud. At any rate, that Abu Talib did not openly declare his faith is not an issue here, in fact we have this hasan hadith that says this:

Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä åÔÇã Èä ÓÇáã¡ Úä ÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: Åä ãËá ÃÈí ØÇáÈ ãËá ÃÕÍÇÈ ÇáßåÝ ÃÓÑæÇ ÇáÇíãÇä æÃÙåÑæÇ ÇáÔÑß ÝÂÊÇåã Çááå ÃÌÑåã ãÑÊíä

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abi `Abdillah (as). He said: Verily the example of Abu Talib is as the example of the Companions of the Cave. They kept secret faith, and exhibited shirk, so Allah gave them their reward twice.

(You notice the first narrator in that hadith, `Ali b. Ibrahim, is the same person who supposedly is writing that part of the tafsir you linked to? Actually, the attribution of the tafsir to him is controversial, what's known at the least is that he didn't write all of it, but that additional material was added onto it, though that part does seem to stating according to the text it's from him.)

His situation was one of taqiyya, which certainly makes sense in the situation he was in. That is, it would seem not unreasonable to consider that by not openly declaring his faith (which was real and genuine) he was in a better position to afford his protection as tribal chief to his nephew from the Quraysh.

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Macisaac, the issue is not about this hadith being authentic or not, but it is about the view of Al-Qummi. I am making a point that not everyone that believes that Abu Talib died a kaffir is necessarily a Nasibi, since it seems that some of your own scholars hold this view. Were you aware of this by the way or is this news to you? I think that it is important that your people should learn such a thing since their attitude usually gets out of hand because of issues like these.

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Macisaac, the issue is not about this hadith being authentic or not, but it is about the view of Al-Qummi. I am making a point that not everyone that believes that Abu Talib died a kaffir is necessarily a Nasibi, since it seems that some of your own scholars hold this view. Were you aware of this by the way or is this news to you? I think that it is important that your people should learn such a thing since their attitude usually gets out of hand because of issues like these.

Yes, I seem to recall coming across this before. However, as I pointed out, the narration I've quoted (which clearly indicates Abu Talib's faith) is narrated by al-Qummi (`Ali b. Ibrahim) himself. Why would he narrate such a hadith had he believed that Abu Talib died a kafir (a`udhu billah)? As to the tafsir attributed to him, like I said there's some dispute as to whether it was written by him or not (with the certainty that at the least, additional content was added later on (particularly the narrations of Abu 'l-Jarud)).

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all I can say is it speaks volumes about the faith of Abu Talib (ra) that in addition to all his support of Prophet (pbuh) and his mission, his wife (ra) who remained married to him till his death (not allowed either in the religion of Ibrahim (as) nor Islam for a believing woman to marry a disbelieving man), but he also put his son (as) in the household of Prophet (pbuh) to be raised, knowing full well Ali (as) would be taught the religion of Islam. Would any of you or your families allow your child be allowed to be raised by someone you knew would teach them a religion if you didn't agree with that religion??? I don't see kids from Muslim families being sent into christian, jewish, hindu or buddhist homes to be raised, so I'm guessing not...

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Torah and Injeel both prohibit marriage of believers with unbelievers, and it is quite reasonable, since Prophet's (pbuh) family were Hanifs (followers of the religion of Ibrahim (as)) they would have abided by this, even before the prohibition in Islam

Inter-marriage between the believers in God and the idolaters has also been prohibited by Tawrat and Injil.

You must not intermarry with them, neither giving your daughters to their sons nor taking their daughters for your sons; if you do, they will draw your sons away from the Lord and make them worship other gods. (Deut 7: 3 and 4)

Do not unite yourselves with unbelievers; they are no fit mates for you. What has righteousness to do with wickedness? Can light consort with darkness? ( 2 Corinthians 6: 14)

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Do not unite yourselves with unbelievers; they are no fit mates for you. What has righteousness to do with wickedness? Can light consort with darkness? ( 2 Corinthians 6: 14)

Since when did sharh of Paul become part of injeel according to any of the Muslim scholars?

As for the saying in Deuteronomy, you completely took it out of context. This is a reference to when the Jews made war against different nations, they didn't have fay and according to their books they would kill everything living (so they couldn't marry it) - just see the first verse and/or the fifth verse in the same chapter. It isn't the Yahuwdi ruling of peace-time and the other interpretation was that it refers to marrying Jewish men to non-Jewish women (forbidden) but Jewish women are allowed to marry non-Jewish men (allowed) - see Rashi (who's paraphrasing the sages).

In any case, we have no text from the Christians showing this supposed illegality and as for the Yahuwdi text, we have no example from the sages that it was interpreted as you are interpreting it now.

As for your claim, "since Prophet's pbuh.gif family were Hanifs (followers of the religion of Ibrahim as.gif) they would have abided by this, even before the prohibition in Islam" - than you have no proof of a codified belief amongst the Hanifa, or any such belief other than the pre-conceived notions of your religion, that you can't intermarry with a non-Hanif.

he was the first male to accept Islam'

SubhanAllah! Elsewhere, your brothers will strip the honors of Rasulallah (saw) to defend this man and here you'll even steal the honor of Hazrat 'Ali (ra) and give it to him...

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One, there is no isnad listed for this narration. Two, the narration doesn't actually say he died as a kafir. Rather it's about whether he declared the kalima out loud. At any rate, that Abu Talib did not openly declare his faith is not an issue here, in fact we have this hasan hadith that says this:

��� �� ������� �� ���� �� ��� ��� ���ѡ �� ���� �� ���� �� ��� ������� (���� ������) ���: �� ��� ��� ���� ��� ����� ����� ����� ������� ������� ����� ������ ���� ����� �����

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abi `Abdillah (as). He said: Verily the example of Abu Talib is as the example of the Companions of the Cave. They kept secret faith, and exhibited shirk, so Allah gave them their reward twice.

(You notice the first narrator in that hadith, `Ali b. Ibrahim, is the same person who supposedly is writing that part of the tafsir you linked to? Actually, the attribution of the tafsir to him is controversial, what's known at the least is that he didn't write all of it, but that additional material was added onto it, though that part does seem to stating according to the text it's from him.)

His situation was one of taqiyya, which certainly makes sense in the situation he was in. That is, it would seem not unreasonable to consider that by not openly declaring his faith (which was real and genuine) he was in a better position to afford his protection as tribal chief to his nephew from the Quraysh.

I thought there is a gap in the narration? Or do is it my bad memory and it was from Saduq?

Edited by MohammadMufti

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