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jawadhussain

Intercession..

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(salam) all,

recently i had a debate with, im guessing a wahaabi.

anyway, we got into the topic of INTERCESSION, i gave references from the Quran, but they were related to intercession on the day of judgement. Which obviously proves that intercession will occur :-

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. S. 20:109

Now my question is, is there any references which would be applicable to this world, in relation to intercession? your ideas/views would be appreciated..

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(salam) all,

recently i had a debate with, im guessing a wahaabi.

anyway, we got into the topic of INTERCESSION, i gave references from the Quran, but they were related to intercession on the day of judgement. Which obviously proves that intercession will occur :-

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. S. 20:109

Now my question is, is there any references which would be applicable to this world, in relation to intercession? your ideas/views would be appreciated..

Qur'an 5:35 , sorry no English translation as I'm at works at the moment

íóÇ ÃóíõøåóÇ ÇáóøÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ÇÊóøÞõæÇú Çááøåó æóÇÈúÊóÛõæÇú Åöáóíåö ÇáúæóÓöíáóÉó

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thanks but more info would be appreciated. :blush: i.e. proving tawassul to non believers, is there anything that we can relate to? references??

secondly, i dont want to go off topic, but could anyone recommend some good websites were i could get good references from? i.e english translation of the Quran? hadiths? etc

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thanks but more info would be appreciated. :blush: i.e. proving tawassul to non believers, is there anything that we can relate to? references??

secondly, i dont want to go off topic, but could anyone recommend some good websites were i could get good references from? i.e english translation of the Quran? hadiths? etc

Sure, lookup on Youtube there's a video of Ammar Nakshawani discussing intercession and wasila in life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJDSWD3wEd8

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Intercession is part of the religion, as per Shi'a Islam and the four Sunni madhabs. With respect to intercession, always remember that the prophet or imam is not interceding on behalf of God; he is interceding on your behalf - in a sense, he is "making a case" for you.

This is a blessing from Allah (swt). I'm not pure enough to make my case in front of Allah without intercession, but inshallah I am pure enough to be granted the mercy of an interceding prophet or imam. Inshallah.

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i do understand intercession to the extent that i do believe in it stongly, however, i am just looking for references to prove intercession to the non believers.

Intercession is mentioned in the Quran on many occassions, however, one surah relates to the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and was revealed to him, during his lifetime.

i.e. is there any reference relating to:- praying for intercession to an Imam or prophet who is no longer amongst us?

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Intercession does not make much sense. All you're doing is just asking a person to do something for you. Will that really put you in heaven?

Maybe I should remind some people of Surah 19, verse 86-87:

And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water,-

None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.

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^

So who are the ones receiving permission to intercede and why has Allah given them the permission to intercede if intercession is of little or no value ?

They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners. (12:97)

He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. (12:98)

The intercessors are five: the Qur'an, near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet. (Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, hadith #3904)

Salams

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^

So who are the ones receiving permission to intercede and why has Allah given them the permission to intercede if intercession is of little or no value ?

They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners. (12:97)

He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. (12:98)

The intercessors are five: the Qur'an, near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet. (Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, hadith #3904)

Salams

I don't see any problem with asking a living Prophet to pray for your forgiveness. However, there is the type of tawassul where you can pray and say stuff like, "Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad." Astaghfirallah. It is perfectly legitimate to do it if there is a living Prophet I think, or even pray to Allah to have mercy on a dead person. However, this type of tawassul seems close to shirk. Does it have any legitimacy in Shi'ism?

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I don't see any problem with asking a living Prophet to pray for your forgiveness. However, there is the type of tawassul where you can pray and say stuff like, "Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad." Astaghfirallah. It is perfectly legitimate to do it if there is a living Prophet I think, or even pray to Allah to have mercy on a dead person. However, this type of tawassul seems close to shirk.

Does it have any legitimacy in Shi'ism?

Yes. The idea of intercession, as per shia school of thought, makes a lot more sense when we have a clear understanding of death itself. You have mentioned that you do not have issues with intercession if the Prophet is alive. This can either mean that you view the Prophet as non-existent or that you view His existence to be in a state of helplessness; a state in which the Prophet has no consciousness of His own, or that He holds no value or place in the court of Allah. Is that what you mean or is there something else which you would like to elaborate for further clarification ?

Salams

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I don't see any problem with asking a living Prophet to pray for your forgiveness. However, there is the type of tawassul where you can pray and say stuff like, "Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad." Astaghfirallah. It is perfectly legitimate to do it if there is a living Prophet I think, or even pray to Allah to have mercy on a dead person. However, this type of tawassul seems close to shirk. Does it have any legitimacy in Shi'ism?

Is it permissible to supplicate and pray to the Imams with the intention that they are the means to Allah? If the answer is no, what is your opinion regarding this matter and what do you think about this Aya: {and seek mean of nearness to Allah}? 11/28/2006 1:02:30 PM

A: The supplication must be only addressed to Allah (The most Exalted) and this is what traditions of the Imams (a.s) have said. The Ayah refers to the means that guide to Allah and the Imams (a.s) are the guides to Allah because they know Allah, His religion and His message. Therefore, this Ayah does not mean that we have to address the supplication to the Imams and not to Allah (The Most Exalted).

[by Syed Fadhlallah(ha) ]

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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Muhammad (sw) will not save you from the Hellfire. Only Allah (swt) will. Surely Shi'ism does not have Protestant elements of intercession. It does not fit in with the essence of being a Muslim.

Allah the Almighty said:

"And warn therewith those who fear that they will be gathered before their Lord, when there

will neither be a protector nor an intercessor for them besides Him, so that they may fear Allah

and keep their duty to Him."

(6:51)

Allah the Almighty said:

"Say: To Allah belongs all intercession."

(39:44)

Allah the Almighty said:

"Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission..."

(2:255)

He said:

"And there are many angels in the heavens whose intercession will avail nothing except after

Allah has given leave for whom He wills and pleases."

(53:26)

He said:

"Say: Call upon those whom you assert (to be associate gods) besides Allah, they possess not

even the weight of an atom (or a small ant), either in the heavens or on the earth, nor have they

any share in either, nor there is for Him any supporter from among them. Intercession with Him

profits not, except for him whom He permits..."

(34:22,23)

Abul-Abbas1 said that Allah has equally negated all that the Mushrikin have attached (to their

false gods). For He has negated that anyone has any dominion or any share of it besides Him, or

that there is any assistant to Allah, And that there is nothing to remain except intercession. It

is clear that there will be no benefit to anyone except for who has been granted permission by the

Lord as He stated:

"They will not be able to intercede except for him with whom He is pleased"

(21 :28)

And for this reason the intercession that the Mushrikin believe in is rejected on the Day of

Resurrection, as it is rejected by the Qur'an and as the Prophet (May the peace and blessing of

Allah be upon him) informed us:

1 Sheikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taimiyah, Ahmad bin Abdul-Haleem bin Abdus-Salam -see Fath-ul-Majeed, page 168.

He will come and prostrate to his Lord and praise Him, and he will not begin with

intercession at first. It will be said afterwards: "Raise your head, speak and it will be heard, ask

and you will be given, intercede and intercession will be granted."

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) asked the Prophet (May the peace and

blessing of Allah be upon him) :

"Who will be the happiest of people with your intercession?" He (the Prophet P.B.U.H) said,

"Whoever said La ilaha illa Allah sincerely with pure intention from his heart."

So this intercession is for those people with pure intent, if Allah so wills, and it will not be for

those who commit Shirk.

The essence of the matter is that it is Allah, Who is above all imperfections, Who favours the

people sincere in their worship and forgives them through the medium of the invocation of

whoever He has given permission to intercede as an honour to him and to confer upon him the

Highest Place (Al-Maqam-al-Mahmud).

The intercession which is rejected and denied in the Qur'an is that which involves Shirk, and

this is why intercession is confirmed and affirmed by the permission of Allah in many places. The

Prophet (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) made it clear that this intercession

will not be for other than the people of Tauhid (Islamic Monotheism) and Ikhlas (sincerity in the

religion of Islam).

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Proof of Proof of Proof of tawassul from the Qur'an

Before I continue mentioning ahadith regarding tawassul toward or from the prophets, it would be best to first mention Quranic verses that legitimize tawassul.

"Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by his permission" (2:255); "Surely your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firmly established on the throne, regulating the affair; there is no intercessor except after His Permission."

Notice the words "but" and "except" in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam. There are many more verses in the same context that explain the legitimacy of tawassul.

"On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with" (20:109)

"And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits" (34:23)

"And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses" (53:26)

"...And they do not intercede except for him whom He approve..." (21:28)

"And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)" (43:86)

The above verses only touch on the mere fact of intercession in Islam. However a verse in Chapter Nisaa', becomes more specific about the act of tawassal. In Chapter Nisaa' Allah explains:

"We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful" (4:64)".

Here it has been made clear that the presence of the Prophet of Allah (SWT) has been a way for the people to use as a means of approach in asking forgiveness.

The above mentioned verses and many other ayats/verses in Quran encourage the practice of tawassul, but only if its to the right people and to the chosen people by Allah (SWT).

Wahabis attacked the Shi'a by stating that

They appeal for help from the aforementioned relatives of the Prophet (pbuh) to assist them obtain their needs, or to help them remove lessen whatever overburdens them.

If seeking the help to ease one's burden is reprehensible in the eyes of wahabis then we would suggest that he take a closer look at the following replies:

Reply One - Prophet Musa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (s) both prayed for helpers to ease their burdens

Right from the beginning of his mission Musa (as) prayed as follows:

"Musa said: O Allah! Assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Haroon. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint... (Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O Musa" (The Qur'an 20:29-36)

Now here Musa (as) is asking for help, not from Allah (swt) alone but from his brother as well. He is NOT turning to Allah (swt) exclusively for help he is asking help from another human as well, is this an act of shirk?

Interestingly Suyuti in his commentary of the above verse sites the following tradition:

"When this verse descended, The Prophet (s) was on a mountain, straight after it's descent, The Prophet (s) prayed to Allah, �Oh Allah! Through my brother Ali, ease the burden on my back', and Allah accepted this prayer"

Tafsir Durre Manthur, by Jaladin Suyuti, Vol 4 p 295

Why is Rasulullah (s) not asking Allah (swt) for help? Would Al Khider not assert that calling on others for help is Shirk? Yet here Rasulullah (s) is asking Allah (swt) that Ali (as) be made his helper. This being the case is it not Sunnah to seek help from Imam Ali (as)? Whose words should we deem to be more important, those of all Khider or those of Rasulullah (s)?

Reply Reply Two - The Bani Israil turned to Prophet Musa (as) for help

In Surah Araf we read as follows:

"We divided them into twelve tribes or nations. We directed Moses by inspiration, when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: "Strike the rock with thy staff": out of it there gushed forth twelve springs: Each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds, and sent down to them manna and quails, (saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for you": (but they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls (The Holy Qur'an 7:160)".

Here the tribe of Bani Israil were thirsty, rather than seek Allah (swt) for sustenance they turned to Hadhrath Musa (as) to answer their prayers. Now if seeking the aid of another is Shirk then surely Musa (as) would have condemned them and told them to pray to Allah (swt), but he did not. Here the 'rod' acted as a Wasila, Allah (swt) could have sent down rain from the skies, and yet Allah (swt) instructed Musa (as) to strike the rod on the rock. The Bani Israil turned to Musa (as) and it was through him (as) that Allah (swt) answered their prayers.

Reply Three - Prophet Sulayman (as) sought the help of the people not Allah (swt)

And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:

38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

39. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

40. Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"

So here we learn:

Prophet Sulayman (as) asked for the throne of Bilkis to be brought to him

He (as) did not pray to Allah (swt) he asked for the help from his supporters

A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.

Now clearly a Prophet (as) has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah (swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman (as) seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?

Now, if a Prophet (as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can't I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur'an, or from Maula Ali (as) who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:

"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."

Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali (as):

"Ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain"

History of the Khailfa's who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

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very well written khaibershikan.. you have made some very interesting and valid points. However, this does bring the debate down to one specific factor..

we all can agree that tawassul does exist in Islam and cannot deny that intercession will occur only on the condition if Allah ( SWT ) permits it.

However, is it right to pray for intercession to someone who is no longer living? i am specifically looking for references.. however your opinions would be appreciated too.

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very well written khaibershikan.. you have made some very interesting and valid points. However, this does bring the debate down to one specific factor..

we all can agree that tawassul does exist in Islam and cannot deny that intercession will occur only on the condition if Allah ( SWT ) permits it.

However, is it right to pray for intercession to someone who is no longer living? i am specifically looking for references.. however your opinions would be appreciated too.

To clairify Sunnis do tawwasul.

Wahabis don't.

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