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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Prophets Sin?

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Seyyid Fadlallah is a man that devoted his time to his studies, it doesn't mean he is always right. There was a thread about this from which I replied to this teaching on his website. I'm sorry it's just that I personally don't accept infallibles making mistakes.

So your belief is that any traditions concerning mistakes must be fabricated based on that matn (of mistakes). But isn't Islamic methodology supposed to be the other way around? We hear narrations - and than - we create our views based on them. Isn't this essentially just having your ray, accepting ahadith which agree with it and denying those that don't - but than the hadith cease to become the basis of your belief, they are just supporting evidence when and where you agree with them.

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Salaamunulaykum wr wb 2 all...

Sister what do you mean,"... We are the Prophets...?

Alaikoam Salam

I believe that the same spirit that was breathed into Adam, Issac, Ismeal, Moses, Sarah, Mary, Ruth, Jesus, Mohammed PBUH is the same spirit breathed into us and as a result we all have the same duty and that is to create aand establish personal and world peace within ourselves, others and around the world.

I believe tat we are all Messengers of Allah (God) and that all of us are responsible for caring for ourselves , others and the world, no one is exempt.

My web page... http://www.geocities.com/amhabibi101/messiah.html

My you tube message... http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_0rru2o-sPQ

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Wa Alaykum Salam,

You may want to read this explanation: http://al-islam.org/faith_reason/24.htm

Prophets (A) do not sin. They make make "mistakes" also known as Tark-e-Awla [leaving the best option for the better]. Brother, do you think even if the Prophets (A) commit Tark-e-Awla, the people would be able to match up to their worship, knowledge and piety?

Salam Spizo

Thanks, I went over the link.Sister don't you think people will see the qualities of leader whether they match up or not that's secondary. However, I still couldn't get clear with the concept "they(Prophets) can make mistake" a mistake as in sin or mistake as in ? Please do explain....

Secondly, If shaitaan tempted, adam n eve to get near the tree then that place wasn't paradise since shaitaan was deported from paradise due to disobeying Allah(SWT) order. Whats that place where this event took?

ws

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Yes, prophets DO commit sins (note: I am an average Hanafi Muslim, no trace of Salafi or Wahhabi inside of me), but not when they are in Prophethood.

Remember, the Prophet in Surah al-Kahf (I forgot who it was) who went on the trip with Prophet Khizr (as) killed a man, but it was understandable because he wasn't in his Prophethood stage.

That's why it is blasphemous to believe that Prophet Muhammad (sw) was BORN a Prophet, or that Ali (ra) was born an Imam, although he wasn't an Imam to be in the first place lol

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This is just another example where evidences are bent to one's beliefs. There are numerous examples in the noble Qur'an that mention mistakes by Prophets. Of course you can write books on why supposedly it was not a mistake for Adam [alaihi as-Salam] to eat from the forbidden tree, or why Yunus [alaihi as-Salam] was right in leaving his people, or why the Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] was right in allowing some people not to join a military expedition....but at the end of the day, when you recite the verses you can't help but recognize that they were mistakes.

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Salam Spizo

Thanks, I went over the link.Sister don't you think people will see the qualities of leader whether they match up or not that's secondary. However, I still couldn't get clear with the concept "they(Prophets) can make mistake" a mistake as in sin or mistake as in ? Please do explain....

Secondly, If shaitaan tempted, adam n eve to get near the tree then that place wasn't paradise since shaitaan was deported from paradise due to disobeying Allah(SWT) order. Whats that place where this event took?

ws

my brother Nabi Adam was in the garden and so was iblis (as) this is where you are mistaken,..... allow me to show you....

In Chapter 20 (Tâ-Hâ): And certainly We had covenanted unto Adam before, but he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination (115). And when We said to the angels: "Prostrate before Adam -, they did prostrate, but Iblis (did it not); he refused (116). So we said. -0 Adam! Surely this is an enemy to you and to your wife; therefore let him not drive you both forth from the Garden so that you should be put to toil

so as we see here the shaytan was not driven form the garden because of his refusal to bow down to Nabi Adam (as)

and please i implore you to read the tafsir al-Mizan..... it is the best work i have ever in my life read.... you will see so many things with so much more clarity my brother.... please.....

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Yes, prophets DO commit sins (note: I am an average Hanafi Muslim, no trace of Salafi or Wahhabi inside of me), but not when they are in Prophethood.

Remember, the Prophet in Surah al-Kahf (I forgot who it was) who went on the trip with Prophet Khizr (as) killed a man, but it was understandable because he wasn't in his Prophethood stage.

That's why it is blasphemous to believe that Prophet Muhammad (sw) was BORN a Prophet, or that Ali (ra) was born an Imam, although he wasn't an Imam to be in the first place lol

brother waqas..... please allow to me give you my own explanation of the circumstances of the Prophet Musa (as) and the killing of a man.,..... I wrote this over a year ago, but please note this is my own work and not the work of any respectable scholar (I am truly ignorant in the light of them....) but maybe my own words may help people to better understand...... I will copy and paste my writings here......also, i included the tafsir al-mizan on these ayat at the end for your reading as well.... please take your time and read it all.......

In the Name Of Allah the Beneficent The Merciful

again we have to be able to read the quran and understand it so we will go through point by point.

now as for the supposed sins (authobillah) of our prophet Musa (as) we will read as follows.......

this surah starts out telling our beloved Prophet Mohmmed (pbuh&hf) not to grieve for those whom did not believe in the Word from Allah (Quran) and his prophethood (saws) for this grief would surely kill him..... then Allah goes on backwards in time reminding of the other Prophets (as)... and in so doing brings up the prophet Musa (as) when he was fearful of going in the front of fir'aun (la) due to the crime (that he can be charged for in this land) of killing a man......

now something that must be pointed out here is that something that is allowed in our religion is not necessarily allowed by the powers that be and we are first to obey Allah and his messenger in all things, then follow, only if they do not contradict Allah and his judgments, the powers that be in a land... so you can be charged with a crime in a certain land when before Allah this is not a crime! lets take for instance the fact that hijab is illegal in Tunisia... a woman she can be charged with a crime for wearing hijab properly and sentenced to jail for this crime but in the eyes (so to speak) of Allah (swt) this is no crime at all!!!!! quite the opposite.... now yes the killing of a man is a greater crime than this for certain however, there are some instances in which it is allowed in Islam before Allah! we are allowed to take the life of another in the circumstances to protect family, home and/or reliigon! so even murder is not always a crime.... that said... how would you feel if you ever took the life of someone? would you not feel so much horror at this even if it was justified? it would make me seek forgiveness of my Rabb even if i knew for a fact I was in the right! for the killing of a man is no small thing indeed... that said let us now return to the quran......

þ26:19 æÝÚáÊ ÝÚáÊß ÇáÊí ÝÚáÊ æÇäÊ ãä ÇáßÇÝÑíä

WafaAAalta faAAlataka allatee faAAalta waanta mina alkafireena

and you did your one deed which you did, and you are from the disbelievers

this is an exact translaiton..... all it says is you did your one deed, and you are from the disbelievers , nothing else no more no less.... anything else is simply conjecture on other peoples parts!this does not say Musa(as) was himself a disbeliever just that he was from the disbelievers,,,,, and this is a deed (or possibly an act) not a crime mentioned......

þ26:20 ÞÇá ÝÚáÊåÇ ÇÐÇ æÇäÇ ãä ÇáÖÇáíä

Qala faAAaltuha ithan waana mina alddalleena

He said: "I did it then, and I while from the misguided."

this again is no admittance of any sin or crime committed.... by looking at this ayah in light of the relevant ayat in surah al-Qasas, as well as all other relevant ayah the tafisr.... but we will revisit this at the end.....

“I did it then while I was of those tied up in a fight which was an error (on the part of the aggressor) as Shaytan who causes people to go astray was responsible for it”.

þ26:21 ÝÝÑÑÊ ãäßã áãÇ ÎÝÊßã ÝæåÈ áí ÑÈí ÍßãÇ æÌÚáäí ãä ÇáãÑÓáíä

Fafarartu minkum lamma khiftukum fawahaba lee rabbee hukman wajaAAalanee mina almursaleena

So I fled from you when I feared you, so my Lord granted for me Hukm and He made me from the messengers.

again i restate my belief that Musa (as) fled in fear of his Rabbi from shame and disgust with himself for killing another however right this may have been in the eyes (so to speak not that Allah (swt) has eyes) of Allah (swt) He was prophet yes but this doesnot make him any less human with feelings just like us..... I ask you again how does it make a person feel to kill another fellow human however evil this human may be? trust me if you are truely good and have a white heart then you will be on your face before Allah (swt) regardless if it was a righteous killing begging mercy for your sin! and this is why the Prophet Musa (as) deserved to be given prophethood el7umdolillah, which is what the rest of this ayah is saying...... because he had such a white heart he earned prophethood (as)..... subhannallah......

now for your ayah 28.16

...

þ28:16 ÞÇá ÑÈ Çäí ÙáãÊ äÝÓí ÝÇÛÝÑ áí ÝÛÝÑ áå Çäå åæ ÇáÛÝæÑ ÇáÑÍíã

Qala rabbi innee thalamtu nafsee faighfir lee faghafara lahu innahu huwa alghafooru alrraheemu

He said: "My Lord, that I caused injustice (to) myself, so forgive for me." So He forgave for Him, that He truly is, He is the forgiving, the merciful........

he is saying here he caused injustice to himself... not that he sinned against almightly Allah!!!!!! he could have been feeling so many things who are we to judge what he was feeling when he said these words but i can fully understand the feelings one would have after taking anothers life especially if you did it to save an unbeleiver, and not a believer.....some thing the Prophet Musa said he would never do again........ his fear was mainly if you look at the surah of being cauught and executed for a crime and not necessarily for fear of his Rabb!!!! but he did ask Allah (swt) his forgiveness and Allah forgave him but in all these ayah Allah never once said Musa committed any sin!!!!!! it is entirely possible that our Prophet Musa (as) at the time needed to clear his heart and mind by receiving forgiveness of Allah even if what he did was not wrong...... so Allah knew this and forgave him...... afterward bestowing upon the Prophet Musa (as) hukm.......

I do not see in these ayat any place where the Prophet Musa (as) committed a sin of any kind.........wallahu aalim

we find in Tafseer Al-Mizan this tafseer concerning the prophet Musa (as)

Question 26: In verse 20 of surah 26 (The Poets), Prophet Musa (a.s.) is reported to have

said that he was of "those who were astray". How does one explain this verse in light of the infallibility of the prophets?

Reply: The root of the Arabic word “dzalla” used in the verse has several meanings like, “go astray”, “lose one’s way, “to be tied up with error”, “to deviate”, “to forget”, etc. The word is commonly translated as “go astray” but its correct application will depend on the context of the verse and of those verses related to this one.

In surah al-Qasas in verse 15, Musa (a.s.) is quoted saying (after killing the aggressor) “This is on account of the Shaytan's doing” which means that Shaytan was responsible for the fight that took place. Then in the following verse (16), Musa (a.s.) said to Allah: “My Lord! Surely I have caught myself in this error (fight), so do Thou protect me. So He protected him; surely He is the Protector, the Merciful”. Here we see that Musa (a.s.) was asking for protection because he feared that people, especially Firawn may have a crime against him although he did not kill the aggressor unjustly.

Coming to surah 26, in verse 14, Musa (a.s.) gives one of the reasons why he expects that Firawn and his people would belie him as he says to Allah: “And they have a crime against me, therefore I fear that they may slay me”. Notice that Musa (a.s.) did not say “I have a crime, therefore I fear that they will slay me”. This would imply he is guilty of the crime but "they have a crime against me” does not imply that he is naturally guilty of the said crime. Finally, the connotation of the verse 26:20 is (and Allah knows best):

“I did it then while I was of those tied up in a fight which was an error (on the part of the aggressor) as Shaytan who causes people to go astray was responsible for it”.

remember the saying the good deeds of the righteous are as sins to them..(something to this effect)..... this is a true saying......

I pray Allah this helps you in your confusion concerning the prophet Musa (as).....

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Brother MohammadMufti...It's not only my beliefs about mistakes of masooms. I think it's the misinterpretation of many others that leads them to believe that masooms can make mistakes. It seems the way you say mistake is as if they aren't infallible, please any proof that they made mistakes? Also, please if you may give your interpretations of Quran chapter 15 verses 39,40. If the verse isn't talking about infallibles, is it talking about you and I? Also, brother it all pretty much comes down to how you define mistake, some dictionaries may say it means to err, but if you are given 2 good choices and you choose 1 which is a lesser good since you wanted to give the better 1 to the others, would that be considered a mistake? With that being said we have to understand that Prophets are still slaves of Allah and the word mistake is the wrong translation for this in my opinion. God knows best

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(wasalam)

However, I still couldn't get clear with the concept "they(Prophets) can make mistake" a mistake as in sin or mistake as in ? Please do explain....

You're talking about Tark-e-Awla?

First of all, let me make it clear that majority of the Shi'ite scholars [past or present] do not believe that the Holy Prophet (S) or the Aimmah (A) committed mistakes. This belief was only held by Shaykh Saduq and his teacher as mentioned here.

When it is said that the Prophets (A) make mistakes, or Tark-e-Awla in other words, it means that they a} either left the best for the better or b} committed the undesirable act over the desirable. In both the cases, they were not committing a sin as such, because they were not committing a haraam act or a deed prohibited by Allah (SWT), in the first place.

It was because of the high position of the Prophets (A) in the eyes of Allah (SWT) that their Tark-e-Awla was considered as reprehensible and thus, were condemned for it. That is, the Prophets (A) were judged according to their level and status [as are we]. For example, a child who is 6 years old solves a question paper meant for, say, 8 year olds, and fares quite well. We will all commend him for his extra-ordinary ability to solve that question paper meant for older kids. But if a 12 year old solves that same paper, people won't think of it to be a big deal. Why? Because expectations from him are higher than this considering his age/capacity/knowledge. So when he performs an act which is below his level or these expectations, then he isn't applauded for it.

In the same way, when a Prophet (A) of Allah (SWT) commits a deed less preferable [although it isn't a sin], he isn't applauded and considering the extent of his knowledge,insight, piety, faith and conviction, he is expected to choose the most preferable act in the eyes of Allah (SWT). Therefore, when we come across verses or traditions or supplications which mention the "sin" of the Prophets (A) it is not referring to the "literal sins" or haraam deeds for which they were asking for forgiveness, but for those acts where they preferred to act upon a degree less deed than the preferable one in the eyes of Allah (SWT) and when they realised their 'mistake', they considered these acts as "sins" and repented for it. So, assuming (just as an example), even a moment lost where they did not do dhikr of Allah (SWT) could be considered as "sin" in the eyes of Allah (SWT) because expectations from them are higher than an average person because of their status.

We have to remember one thing here, that the Prophets (A) were human beings. They had freewill. If they did not commit sins and strived in every way to please Allah (SWT), it was out of their own volition and not forced. They kept away from the sins because they knew the reality of those sins. For instance, we know that when we touch an electric wire, we will instantly die. Because of this knowledge, we ourselves won't touch it or go even anywhere near it. But a child who is innocent and does/cannot grasp this fact, will want to touch it out of curiosity perhaps, or for whatever reason. He doesn't realise that touching the electric wire is actually harmful for him. Our case is akin to that of the child; that is, because we do not know the reality of the sins; we are easily attracted to it; while for the Messengers and Guides (A) of Allah (SWT), they were aware and had the ma'refat of the consequences/implications or the hideous reality of these sins; which is why they kept away from them.

And certainly she made for him, and he would have made for her, were it not that he had seen the manifest evidence of his Lord. [12:24]

Secondly, If shaitaan tempted, adam n eve to get near the tree then that place wasn't paradise since shaitaan was deported from paradise due to disobeying Allah(SWT) order. Whats that place where this event took?

This point has been discussed in the link posted before:

  • The second issue is the location of Adams’s (Ú) residence prior to his banishment to earth. Was it the promised Paradise of the Hereafter or a terrestrial heaven? Some are of the opinion that it was the promised Paradise. Although Paradise does not accommodate obligation, but this does not pose a problem in the case of Adam and Eve (Ú), for the eternal residence in Paradise is the result of acquired eligibility, which was lacking in their case.
    But there are several problems with this view. Firstly, if he resided in Paradise which does not accommodate obligation, then why does the Qur`an state that he disobeyed Allah (awj)? And how was Satan capable of disobedience? Secondly, if it were Paradise, then Satan would not have had access to it? Thirdly, the consumption of all the bounties of Paradise is permissible and Allah (awj) does not prohibit anything there, while Adam (Ú) had been prohibited from eating the fruit of the forbidden tree.
    Therefore, it seems that the correct view is that he was in a terrestrial paradise. This view is actually substantiated by hadiths which specify that it was a garden in this world, pointing out that Adam and Eve (Ú) would even witness the setting of the sun and the moon. There are however contradicting hadiths indicating that the place of their residence was in a heavenly location. This contention is corroborated by the usage of the word hubut in speaking of the banishment, which denotes descending from a higher level to a lower level.

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That's untrue, the objective in the present text was to gather the chains of Imaam Reza, not to gather saheeh narrations - but as to your ulema doing that - we have Saheeh al Kafi

You seem to be mistaken. The title of the compilation is Usul al Kafi, not Sahih al Kafi.

and Khomeini's forty (which he says are saheeh) as examples of 12er ulema doing that.

The Arba`in of Imam Khumayni is not an example of Shia Muslim scholars producing sahih compilations. It is an example of Shia Muslim scholars producing Arba`in compilations. If Arba`in compilations were considered in the same view as sahih compilations, then the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah would have at least seven sahih compilations, to account for the Arba`in compilation of Imam Nawawi and other Sunni `ulama.

when he gives commentary for aqeedah based on particular hadeeth than I doubt they are weak....It's what Sheikh asSaduq says about the capacity to err amongst Ma'soom (that they can).

I still find it odd that he directly contradicted such a statement in a well-known treatise of `aqidah of his by stating, ÅÚÊÞÇÏäÇ Ýí ÇáÇäÈíÇÁ æÇáÑÓá æÇáÇÆãÉ æÇáãáÇÆßÉ: Ãäåã ãÚÕæãæä ãØåÑæä ãä ßá ÏäÓ¡ æÃäåã áÇ íÐäÈæä ÐäÈÇ áÇ ÕÛíÑÇ æáÇ ßÈíÑÇ and æÇÚÊÞÇÏäÇ Ýíåã: Ãäåã ãÚÕæãæä¡ ãæÕæÝæä ÈÇáßãÇá æÇáÊãÇã æÇáÚáã ãä ÃæÇÆá ÃãæÑåã æÃæÇÎÑ¡ áÇ íæÕÝæä Ýí ÔÆ ãä ÃÍæÇáåã ÈäÞÕ æáÇ ÚÕíÇä æáÇ Ìåá.Æ (Our belief concerning the prophets, apostles, Imams and angels is that they are infallible; purified from all defilement, and that they do not commit any sin, whether it be minor or major. and Our belief concerning them is that they are infallible and possess the attributes of perfection, completeness and knowledge, from the beginning to the end of their careers. Defects cannot be attributed to them, nor disobedience, nor ignorance, in any of their actions.) If it was the belief of Shayh Saduq that the Anbiya could make minor sins or errors, then why would he have negated such a belief when he wrote Risalat al I`tiqadat?

none of your Sunna' brothers will take part in Batini interpretation or interpretation of tahreef (either in position, or addition or substraction). When do Ahlus Sunnah generally not take a statement literally? When the zaahir meaning isn't literal (i.e. a different meaning can be established by the context...).

You seem not to understand literal vs allegorical interpretation of Islamic texts. Please see the following:

http://www.livingislam.org/k/asht_e.html

Figurative Interpretation of the Mutashâbihât

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/littlk.htm

Literalism and the Attributes of Allah

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/inthesky.htm

Is it permissible for a Muslim to believe that Allah is in the sky in literal sense?

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=...ate=0&t=rss

Understanding the Divine Attributes: the Salaf, Ash`aris, Maturidis, and the way of mainstream Sunni Islam

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...252&CATE=24

The Beliefs of the Sunni Way

The Ruling of Shaving and Shortening the Beard in the Shafi`i School

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...18&CATE=414

If you examine this closely, you will see that the position of the Shafi`i school is not very different from the position of the scholarly majority because neither of them interpret the hadiths literally in a general manner.

Brother (or sister?) your claims are absurd, especially regarding the size of Hanbalis, Zahiris, Awzais. The former is still flourishing, and the later two were in the early periods.

I did not deny their existence, only that they were very large in population.

This constitutes a very obvious majority - and even if it was a minority position, than as I said, "it shows that this was a widely held minority view and that you were false in ascribing it as a recent innovation by Salafiyuwn."

According to Qadi `Iyad in his Shifa`, the belief that the Anbiya' are innocent of both kaba'ir and sagha'ir was the belief of the vast majority of the `ulama. This is in direct contrast with the claims of the deviated slaafists, who say, "he view that the Prophets were protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam and all the sects..."

His texts are being used in Al-Azhar

This is the same institution from which the "fatwa" that Shia Islam is a fifth madhhab came. It is the same place that has legitimised music and riba and has legitimised the French ban on hijabs in public schools. Al Azhar has become infamous lately for its politically motivated rulings and now lacks validity with the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah.

he was Sheikh ul Islaam in his period... As to your false claim that he was rejected by Ahlus Sunnah, you are basing your incorrect beliefs on the statements of literally a handful of ulema against him that you probably only heard second-hand from 12er apologists.

I got my information about ibn Taymiyyah from the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah groups that exist online. Please see the following:

http://www.livingislam.org/n/itay_e.html

Ahmad ibn Taymiyya (661-728)

A Brief Survey

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...851&CATE=22

What Do The Scholars Say About Ibn Taymiyya?

http://ukiew.org/htp/index.php?option=com_...395&catid=7

Question on Ibn Taymiyyah, Salafi by Abu Ja`far al-Hanbali 2004/07/10

http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/ibntay03.html

`Asqalani on ibn Taymiyyah

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/al-Zawiya/message/6825

A Bit About Ibn Taymiyyah

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:qh8pRg...;cd=4&gl=us

ibn taymiyyah by Ust. Mohamad Ghouse Khan Surattee on al-Zawiya Yahoo Group mailing list Mon Dec 2, 2002 4:56 am

In fact, I'll suggest for you a little experiment, go to any of the forums which are known to be real Sunnis (i.e. sunniforum.com which you appear to be familiar with) and ask what the tuwlaab think concerning him.

Since Sunni Forum is closely associated with Sunni Path, I can only imagine that their responses would be just as moderated. As you know, of course, there are shuyukh at that forum whom I would trust over the average poster there.

I saw YOU as an individual, lying - so I called YOU out for it

Actually, you have not caught me lying. You have put words in my mouth and made your baseless accusations against me using that as your reference.

That's rubbish - you replied to MY statement where I spoke of NOTHING but errors (not sins), and than you made a reply where you omit the matter of differentiating errors and sins - so clearly you were being deceptive.

I did not mention errors because I already know that the position of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah is that the Anbiya' can commit errors. What I was not aware of was the distinction between ijma` and jamhur, in addition to the fact that there is not 100% consensus on the issue of ghuna as-sagha'ir, which is why I mistakenly claimed that the ijma` of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah is for innocence of the Anbiya' from both kaba'ir and sagha'ir.

This was my error; and it was made in ignorance. The fact remains that the deviated salafist attempts to claim a majority where none exists based on their own whims.

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This is just another example where evidences are bent to one's beliefs. There are numerous examples in the noble Qur'an that mention mistakes by Prophets. Of course you can write books on why supposedly it was not a mistake for Adam [alaihi as-Salam] to eat from the forbidden tree, or why Yunus [alaihi as-Salam] was right in leaving his people, or why the Prophet [salla Allahu 'alaihi wa salam] was right in allowing some people not to join a military expedition....but at the end of the day, when you recite the verses you can't help but recognize that they were mistakes.

The way of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah and of the Ithna `Ashari Imami Shi`ah is not to use literal interpretations of the Qur'an exclusively, but to use allegorical interpretations when a literal interpretation goes against another Qur'anic principle. You are insisting on using a literal interpretation of all Qur'anic ayat, even when such results in a contradiction of other Qur'anic ayat.

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Salam to all,

All of us agreed that when a person is in the state of Prophethood, he will be protected by Allah swt from sins/errors/mistakes.

We also agreed that everybody will tested by Allah swt including all the Prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) .

When Allah swt tests a person, he is himself, as a human. As a human, he may pass the test with flying color or if he failed, he needs to make taubah. Both ways (pass the test or taubah) are considered virtuous in the Eye of Allah swt. The test also will signify his status.

As for our Prophet and Ahlulbayt (as), there were protected from the day they were born. The question of not passing the tests from Allah swt will never surface.

Layman

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The way of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah and of the Ithna `Ashari Imami Shi`ah is not to use literal interpretations of the Qur'an exclusively, but to use allegorical interpretations when a literal interpretation goes against another Qur'anic principle. You are insisting on using a literal interpretation of all Qur'anic ayat, even when such results in a contradiction of other Qur'anic ayat.

The way of Ahl us-Sunnah is to take the obvious meaning of verses unless there is clear textual proof to suggest a different meaning.

Otherwise, the noble Qur'an would lose any significance and could not be relied upon as a source of guidance anymore. I find it extremely disturbing to believe that Allah ta'ala somehow tricked us by providing us with verses whose obvious meanings are not intended.

IF the Prophet(peace be upon him and his family) did sin, all his sins are likely forgiven, so there's no point in bringing up such a discussion. If a person is shown to be forgiven of a crime, we are not allowed to keep mentioning that crime.

So are you suggesting to stop reciting the verses that talk about mistakes of Prophets?

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You seem to be mistaken. The title of the compilation is Usul al Kafi, not Sahih al Kafi.

No, I'm afraid your mistaken sis, I wasn't refering to Usool al Kafi, I was refering to Saheeh al Kafi (which is based on al kafi al Kulayni) by Muhammad Baqir Mahmudi. You are confusing two different books, the first being the initial set of uncriticized narrations and the second those which Mahmudi identified as Sahih.

The Arba`in of Imam Khumayni is not an example of Shia Muslim scholars producing sahih compilations. It is an example of Shia Muslim scholars producing Arba`in compilations. If Arba`in compilations were considered in the same view as sahih compilations, then the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah would have at least seven sahih compilations, to account for the Arba`in compilation of Imam Nawawi and other Sunni `ulama.

Arba'in collection can also be a saheeh collection and Khomeini clearly stated that all of the narrations were saheeh according to him. Your arguement is invalid since the only reason I'm considering this arba'in collection as a saheeh collection is because of Khomeini's own words within the text (so please read the text before making claims). As for our arba'in collections, if the ulema don't say that all the narrations are saheeh within the text itself than obviously it is not a saheeh collection. But if, like Khomeini, they adduce authenticity for all the narrations they include - than yes, it is a saheeh collection...

If it was the belief of Shayh Saduq that the Anbiya could make minor sins or errors, then why would he have negated such a belief when he wrote Risalat al I`tiqadat?

He didn't contradict it, you're misinterpreting Risalah al I'tiqadat and what he meant by isma. Who's interpretation of that text is better, that of the author's or yours?

You seem not to understand literal vs allegorical interpretation of Islamic texts.

Completely irrelevent, you still don't seem to understand the difference between batn and zaahir. As for the Ashariya and the Maturidiyah - they don't make taweel baselessly, their claim is to be doing so from the zaahir text...

I did not deny their existence, only that they were very large in population.

You had said, "These schools of thought were small enough in terms of their numbers that a majority consensus of the other three, in combination with whomever of the other three agreed with impossibility of minor sins, would very likely have remained a majority consensus in Sunni Islam." - and this is complete absurdity to anyone familiar with the period up till and beyond the Andalusis and the prominence of layth, zahiri, awzai, etc.

Since Sunni Forum is closely associated with Sunni Path, I can only imagine that their responses would be just as moderated. As you know, of course, there are shuyukh at that forum whom I would trust over the average poster there.

Than go ahead and ask the shuyukh there :) They will easily destroy your false ascription to them of opposing Sheikh ul Islaam (rah).

Actually, you have not caught me lying. You have put words in my mouth and made your baseless accusations against me using that as your reference. I did not mention errors because I already know that the position of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah is that the Anbiya' can commit errors. What I was not aware of was the distinction between ijma` and jamhur, in addition to the fact that there is not 100% consensus on the issue of ghuna as-sagha'ir, which is why I mistakenly claimed that the ijma` of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama`ah is for innocence of the Anbiya' from both kaba'ir and sagha'ir.

This was my error; and it was made in ignorance. The fact remains that the deviated salafist attempts to claim a majority where none exists based on their own whims.

You very clearly replied to a post where I specificlly, and intentionally, used "error" and not "sin" and than you replied under the context of sin. You can try to wriggle out of the can of worms you opened but Allah (swt) can you see past deciet and Allah (swt) is hakim ul hakimeen.

IF the Prophet(peace be upon him and his family) did sin, all his sins are likely forgiven, so there's no point in bringing up such a discussion. If a person is shown to be forgiven of a crime, we are not allowed to keep mentioning that crime.

That's not the problem some people were having - they are saying that if the prophet is capable of error than there is no confirmation that what he left us is free from errors on his part.

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السلام علیکم
Dear;
A person chosen to be prophet of God, never commit any sins,though he can commit but he by free will, even does not  even think about it or how to approach to any types of sin( either minor sins called Saghirahصغیرة nor major sins called in Arabic کبیرة), you know prophet of Allah "this is something for granted" have been reached that level of perfection that all become infallible s, in other words; prior to be appointed by Allah as His Prophet, and after they succeeded all difficult examinations, then they were rewarded to be the vicegerent of God on earth.
But when you are reciting the Holy Quran, you see some Ayah associates something seems to be wrong, but these are not sins like the word " عصی" means ترک الاولی neglecting what is best to be done for it would have good result for yourself rather than God, like what Allah advice Adm and Eve not to approach to that tree, for sure there in Heaven or where ever they were it was not a world of religious obligation they had no Sharia (law) to obey.
But what went on there deprived Adam and Eve from that grace living together in peace.
Another type of sins that in  the Quran applied to the prophet of Islam(pbuh), is not the sin that prophet committed May god forbid, but it was a false image that people  around prophet had in their mind and were thinking He made a mistake and  the holy Quran is quoting from the side of people misunderstanding the true story and it was not the case that prophet disobeyed Allah.
finally you may refer to some type of Hadith that prophet(pbuh)or other ahlulbayt(pbut) were reciting استغفروالله many times a day, so it shows that, saying أستغفروالله  is the sign of being sinful!otherwise it does not make a sense to repeat Istighfar! the proper answer to this,  according to Hadith, is أستغفروالله  and it necessarily does not imply the person saying it, asking God for forgiveness, and is not always the sign of repentance but a kind of  ذِکر or ذُکر (remembrance of God) like other أذکار(supplication) helps to reach  to the higher status of spirituality
.

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السلام علیکم

Dear brothers;

Reason affirms that a person in a  high spiritual position like prophets of God who are intercessor between God and His creatures, a personality who receives  the revelation and God's command to deliver it to  the people, logically should not be the one probably can make mistakes, otherwise people would not  trust him nor follow what he is saying because there is no guarantee ensure us once again he is not  going to make mistakes or telling lies,then the purpose of sending prophets which is leading people to the right path (not leading them only through the tongue but  through their beliefs representing in acts of holy prophets) goes wrong.

Mission of all Prophets is; to teach people  the Book of guidance and wisdom, and  to purify them as well, "کما ارسلنا فیکم رسولا منکم یتلوا علیکم ایتنا و یزکیکم و یعلمکم الکتاب والحکمة و یعلمکم ما لم تکونو تعلمون(151/بقرة ,OK how to teach and what to teach is a good question with better answer! the answer is"Revelation" to teach people what prophet themselves have been taught before, of course I do not mean the same method of teaching because  not every one would have the same capability of understanding things as prophets thanks to their nobility have! all right, imagine! in  a case that some may think; "there is nothing wrong if prophets committing sins for they are human and human making mistakes! this is not something odd for prophets because soon they would repent to God asking forgiveness!" you know this is  a shame to think about nonsense like this!? let alone to have such silly beliefs like that!

Prophets as some may think are not just recorders to playback the exact things witnessed or recorded in the presence being addressed by God, surly They should be immaculate to fulfill so called missionary mentioned above, but it is just part of the mission, they are role models as well, they  must not even commit "Makruh" let a lone sins which is Haram, role models living among society to reflect the light of Allah for not the people of that time but for all humanity, so a person in such crucial status being called أسوة حسنة never go astray not in his thought nor or his practice nor in his private, for if their followers of any time can see something immoral like Makruh, the prophets no longer deserve to be followed as role model. This is what Allah had a place for it in His wise plan to complete the validity of His signs so that no one can judge Him in hereafter then no excuse is accepted in this regard for human being.   

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In the Bible, both Moses and David are said to have sinned. Moses disobeyed God by striking a stone (twice) instead of speaking to it, in order to cause it to gush with water. David famously lusted after Bathsheba, wife of Uriah the Hittite, whom he caused to die in battle. Neither episode is mentioned in the Qur'an.

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Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

You have to pay attention to this important point that where they had done such act, was not the realm of duties and obligations (Daar-u-t-Takleef) and this world that they descended to is the realm of duties. So the issue of "Sin" is meaningless in the realm in which no duty is applied.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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