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siraatoaliyinhaqqun

Acknowledge Imam Ali A.s. As Your Rabb

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Asalaamalaikum

Believing in tahreef doen't mean I don't believe in Quran. Al hamdollillah I believe in the book of Allah that is Al Quran.

Imam Ali a.s. is Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a. You are similar to wahabis because they misunderstood the same way as you did.

Imam Ali a.s. is Abd Allah and me saying Imam Ali a.s. is Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a doesn't mean that he a.s. does not have a creator.

Bunch of Fools trying to represent Shiasm

Ya Ali Madad

So how do your beliefs differ to that of the Alwaites who say pretty much exactly like you?

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So how do your beliefs differ to that of the Alwaites who say pretty much exactly like you?

I believe that Ali a.s. is not that Rabb which you are thinking. I believe that he is a creation who was created by his Rabb. Whereas Alwaites deny that he a.s. has a creator.

And how dare you think because Moula Ali a.s.'s creator cannot get in to your imagination or thought.

Ya Ali Madad

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No my friend. It's too late to give explanations.

The topic title made by you says it all:

Acknowledge Imam Ali A.s. As Your Rabb, or you become a Kafir

How come you presumed we don't believe in Ali's (as) wilayah or him being an authority to follow? Or that we don't believe in his status as one of the foremost beloveds of Allah, the aliyyeen?

The title of this topic clearly gives away your intentions to create fitnah.

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Asalaamalaikum

Believing in tahreef doen't mean I don't believe in Quran. Al hamdollillah I believe in the book of Allah that is Al Quran.

Imam Ali a.s. is Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a. You are similar to wahabis because they misunderstood the same way as you did.

Imam Ali a.s. is Abd Allah and me saying Imam Ali a.s. is Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a doesn't mean that he a.s. does not have a creator.

Bunch of Fools trying to represent Shiasm

Ya Ali Madad

You're the only fool here. Your belief in tahreef and in the divinity of Imam Ali makes you the fool. It is you and people like you that don't represent Shi'ism. You don't represent what Shi'a Islam says. You take it, twist it, and present it as Shi'ism. Don't refer to us as fools for not abiding to your shirk and your filth. To each his own religion. Your religion is the acknowledgment in tahreef and the notion that Ali is our rabb. These beliefs do not represent us. In fact, Shi'is are unanimous on these matters. So don't call us fools for what we believe in, especially when your ideas and your thoughts are deviant.

The purpose of this thread was to spread fitna and confusion. Referring to people as kaffir for not acknowledging that Ali is rabb is an attempt to spread confusion and disunity for whatever beliefs you hold (and quite frankly, I don't want to know what you follow). If you were going to use the term "rabb" in a different manner, and wanted to make this clear, you would have clearly outlined this in your opening post. You would have avoided confusion.

Edited by asphyxiated

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(salam)

now lets not argue about useless stuff whether the topic is names right or no, or whatever.

the piont is this hadith is saheh, and rejecting the words of Ahlu Al-Al-Bayt (as) is kufrr.

Now I'm sure Bro siraatoal did not mean this hadith proves that Allah is Imam Ali (as), and Imam Ali (as) does not have a creator.

So since this hadith is Saheh, we need stop accusing others of ghuluww, and we better start trying and understanding what Ahlu Al-Albayt (as) meant by this hadith and stop having chilidish argument.

Here is my belief of this hadith.

In arabic the word Rabb is given to the man of the house, so for example if you are a person you provides food for the inhabitants of the house and looks after them you are the Rabb of the house.

This hadith when it says Imam Ali (as) is our Rabb, it means he is our food provider, our sustainer, our protector, our owner..etccc , and all this by the will of Allah.

Not only this but Imam Ali (as) is the Rabb of the earth and it's inhabitants.( see kitab sulyam ibn qays, hadith of of the prophet (pbuh)). Just like how a man is the rabb of his house i.e by taking care of it, Imam Ali (as) takes care of the earth, provides it and it's inhabitants with nutrients, water, etccc.

That is what Allah meant when he said:

021.105

And certainly We wrote in the Book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit the earth.

All the shia tafeer, say this is refering to the 12 Imam (as) and even Kulayni (ra) in Al-Kafi opened a chapter just of this purpose.

And if a wahabi disagrees, here is Abu Hanifah refering to the owner of a land as "Rabb of that land"

æÃãÇ ÚäÏ ÃÈí ÍäíÝÉ - ÑÖí Çááå ÊÚÇáì Úäå - ÝáÃä ÇáÎÇÑÌ æÅä ßÇä íÌÈ Úáì ÑÈ ÇáÃÑÖ æáßä áãÇ Íßã Èå ÇáÅãÇã Úáì ÇáãÓÊÃÌÑ æÃÎÐ ãä ÇáÎÇÑÌ ÝÞÏ ÞÖì Ýí ãæÖÚ ãÌÊåÏ Ýíå ÝíäÝÐ ÞÖÇÄå æÕÇÑ ÇáÍÞ Úáíå

http://www.al-eman.com/IslamLib/viewchp.as...=216&CID=79

Reference :Sharh Al-Kabeer volume 5 page 79

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This is the hadith:

"Narrated on the Authortiy of Abdullah Ibn Amer from Abu Abdullah Al-Barqy from Al-Husain Ibn Uthman from Muhammed Ibn Al-Fadeel from Abu Hamzah he said : I heard Imam Abu Jafar say in relation to the Al-mighty saying " And who so ever disbeliefs in Iman his deeds will be of no account, and in the here after he shall be one of the losers", He (Imam) said it's batin tafseer means who so ever disbeliefs in wilayah, and Ali is Iman. I also asked Abu Jafar in relation to "and the unbeliever is a partisan against his Rabb"(Furqan:55) he said it's batin tafseer means ALI IS HIS RABB IN WILAYAH AND ITA'A AND THE RABB IS THE CREATOR THAT CANNOT BE DESCRIBED....."

We all comprehensively believe in wilayah of Ali (as) and ita'ah.

This hadith when it says Imam Ali is our Rabb, it means he is our food provider, our sustainer, our protector, our owner..etccc , and all this by the will of Allah.

Not only this but Imam Ali is the Rabb of the earth and it's inhabitants.( see kitab sulyam ibn qays, hadith of of the prophet ). Just like how a man is the rabb of his house i.e by taking care of it, Imam Ali takes care of the earth, provides it and it's inhabitants with nutrients, water, etccc.

Bro, where in the hadith does it say those things that I have underlined? By the way, this is meant more as a question to learn. Because I've known that the Archangel Meekaiel (as) has been ordained by Allah for distributing whatever He allocates for all His creatures. While Ali (as) outranks archangels so some sense can be made out of all this. So please tell us more.

Is the hadith in Kitab Sulaym Ibn Qays (ra) considered Sahih by all our top scholars?

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Cowardly Wahabi militants, the illegitimate sons of Muawiyah and Yazid, when they kill innocent and peaceful Shia civilians, realize that its deviated extremists like yourself who have the biggest role in giving them the cause for it. While you are mostly unharmed, since you're such a small minority anyway.

This is why my cousin always says that such false Malangism was created by Muawiyah to slander Ali (as) and his followers. Who wouldn't get disgusted by an unruly bunch who don't even comb their hair, smoke/drink cannabis, keep talking about Ali all day, miss all prayers and fasts and not follow shariah, while having extremist ideas like these. They'll think the followers of Ali (as) are such. And this'll also belittle Ali's image in their naive minds.

Perhaps you really are infiltrators.

Perfect Reply.

Infact I can feel the courtesy of followers of Ahl ul Bayt (as), but brother, this filth has gone too far.

Just because of them, we are being killed.

Sometime I really feel amazed how come moderators allow this kind of Nusairi views on a shia website without issuing a warning that Shias dont beleive in what these Nusairis beleive. This might confuse and misguide other sects about us who just read the caption and dont feel our disgust for such Kafir like thoughts.

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I agree toronto,

It makes me wonder if shiachat itself has been infiltrated and corrupted.

At this rate we will end up like the sunnis, bombing each other and fighting amongst ourselves whilst the israelis and the americans laugh.

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Salaam

What's wrong with the shias? I mean we are trying to complicate things. We are treating this hadith as a joke.

I'm not against anyone or anything here, but this hadith is saheh, bro siroatl showed the opinion of our rijal and all the narrators are relaible. So what I'm traying to say is we should not be having childish arguments like what you bro have went in to and instead just try and benefit from the hadith.

Bro, where in the hadith does it say those things that I have underlined?

Bro, did I claim they are in the hadith??

Do you not comprehend ??

This hadith when it says Imam Ali is our Rabb, it means he is our food provider, our sustainer, our protector, our owner..etccc , and all this by the will of Allah.

I don't understand why you are acting like the sunnis when shias present them with ahadith.

By the way, this is meant more as a question to learn. Because I've known that the Archangel Meekaiel (a.s) has been ordained by Allah for distributing whatever He allocates for all His creatures. While Ali (a.s) outranks archangels so some sense can be made out of all this. So please tell us more.

It is Imam Ali (pbuh) who orders the angels to do those things. That is why Imam Ali (as) says in khutbah Al-Iftikhariya "Ana sahibu Jibreel" "I am the master of jibrael" .Allah has appionted Imam Ali (as) to take care of those things (if you read in Amali for Al-Tusi, when Imam Ali (a.s) was born a voice from the sky said to fatima ibnt assad (as), Allah has authorized Imam Ali (a.s) with his commands). Angles (a.s) don't speak to Allah (swt) or meet with him or anything. Whenever Allah (swt) wants to say something to the angles it is always Imam Ali (as) who tells the angels do so and so. For example look at hadith Al-Kisaa, the one narrated by Jaber ibn Abdullah Al-Ansari (r.a) , do you think it was actually Allah who spoke directly to Jibra'el?? Doesn't that give Allah human characteristics?

Do you know there is a hadith in both the shia and sunni books, that Allah said to the prophet (pbuh), that when he (pbuh) went on mi3raj, it was Imam Ali (as) who was speaking to the prophet (pbuh). I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Imam Ali (as) is better than the prophet (pbuh), but Imam Ali (a.s) was the meduim. He is Allah's represitive.

Do you not read Imam Ali (a.s)'s sermons, nuraniyah, iftikhriyah, tatnajiyah and bayan?? You should read those sermons before you object the hadith in OP.

Is the hadith in Kitab Sulaym Ibn Qays considered Sahih by all our top scholars
?

This is funny, you do exactly against what Ahlu Al-Bayt (a.s) said.

Ahlu Al-Bayt (as) said that many of those who claim to be our shia begin to question the authencity of our hadith and begin rejecting it, with even thinking that t he hadith might have been musnad to Ahlu Al-Albayt (as)..

This is not the actual wording of the hadith, but it has the same meaning..

Kulayni (r.a) and Sadook (r.a) relied on it and many other scholars authenticated it.

Edited by albaqyr

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(salam)

now lets not argue about useless stuff whether the topic is names right or no, or whatever.

the piont is this hadith is saheh, and rejecting the words of Ahlu Al-Al-Bayt (as) is kufrr.

Now I'm sure Bro siraatoal did not mean this hadith proves that Allah is Imam Ali (as) , and Imam Ali (as) does not have a creator.

So since this hadith is Saheh, we need stop accusing others of ghuluww, and we better start trying and understanding what Ahlu Al-Albayt (as) meant by this hadith and stop having chilidish argument.

Here is my belief of this hadith.

In arabic the word Rabb is given to the man of the house, so for example if you are a person you provides food for the inhabitants of the house and looks after them you are the Rabb of the house.

This hadith when it says Imam Ali (as) is our Rabb, it means he is our food provider, our sustainer, our protector, our owner..etccc , and all this by the will of Allah.

Not only this but Imam Ali (as) is the Rabb of the earth and it's inhabitants.( see kitab sulyam ibn qays, hadith of of the prophet (pbuh) ). Just like how a man is the rabb of his house i.e by taking care of it, Imam Ali (as) takes care of the earth, provides it and it's inhabitants with nutrients, water, etccc.

That is what Allah meant when he said:

021.105

And certainly We wrote in the Book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit the earth.

All the shia tafeer, say this is refering to the 12 Imam (as) and even Kulayni (ra) in Al-Kafi opened a chapter just of this purpose.

And if a wahabi disagrees, here is Abu Hanifah refering to the owner of a land as "Rabb of that land"

Reference :Sharh Al-Kabeer volume 5 page 79

Very beautifully said: Although, I presented a hadith that denial of a hadith is a kufr they just jump on to conclusions with the limit they possess. The deficiency is from Alam Arwa. The Hadith is completely right and Quran also calls your father as Rabb us Saghira.

Now, let's analyse an e.g. When you say La Fatah Illa Ali La Saif Illa Zulfekhar.

No one is a Man except Ali and No sword except Zulfekhar

Allah swt calls Musa as Fatah in Quran but when he is Bil Muqabil(when compared to Imam Ali a.s.) he is La Fatah although we have to believe that he (musa a.s) is also fatah but when compared to Ali a.s. he is La Fatah and Ali is Fatah.

The same goes with La Saif Illa Zulfekhar.

If I hold a Sword in my hand, even a child would say that it is a sword and no one would say it is a knife or a blade. But when this sword is compared with Zulfekhar, every sword becomes No Sword(la Saif) and Zulfekhar will be the only Saif(sword)

The Same way Ali a.s. is my Rabb but When I say La Ilaha Illallah, I call Imam Ali a.s.(14 Masoomeen a.s.) La Ilah and belief that he a.s. has a creator and finish with IllAllah.

Now look what the a father does: A son or slave is also called Abd in Arabic.

Source of birth.

Provides living.

Protects.

Helps.

Loves.

Punishes.

Gets angry.

Asks the child to follow him.

Asks the children to believe that he is the wali(rabb of the house). Most of the time you do not need to say who is the wali, the child recognises this automatically.

I haven't seen a real Abd denying his real rabb. He may deny his father only when he is not from him eventhough he may accept the mother.

Rasool Allah saww said: On the day of resurrection all the people will be summoned by the names of their mothers except our shia. They will be summoned by the names of their fathers because of their good birth.

Evey one believes that Rasool Allah saww is the father(rabb) of the Umma and after him Imam Ali a.s. is the father(rabb) of Umma. So, we have Hazrath Mohmmad saww as our Rabb in Nabuwa and Hazrath Ali a.s. as our Rabb in Wilaya and Imama(the essence of Imama is Ita'a).

This is Shia Aqeeda and I am presenting this to you.

I will end with a hadith which says: We(a.s) are our Rabb's creaton and after that everything is our creation.

Nahno Sanayo Rabbona Wa Badal Khalq Sanayona.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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I agree toronto,

It makes me wonder if shiachat itself has been infiltrated and corrupted.

At this rate we will end up like the sunnis, bombing each other and fighting amongst ourselves whilst the israelis and the americans laugh.

Let me make another thing clear to you about my belief. I believe Jihad is Haraam without the permission of Imam a.s.

And I believe it would be people like you who have violent and sunni tendencies who are going to bomb the true believers.

Americans, Israelis, Sunni, Wahabi, and people like you have common tendencies, i.e. Kill and cruel.

LAN Allahe ummatan Zulmatka.. Khatalatka... Same at bezalik wa razi at beh

Ya Ali Madad

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what a cushy life you have, you create massive amounts of fitnah and then walk away, leaving us to do all the fighting.

So if a group of muslims is attacked, we just sit there and get massacred ?

Sounds like something the CIA or MI6 would love for us to do.

Let me ask, when the Imam AS is in ghabia, do we ignore the quranic verses and our knowledge of the religion?

Also what religion do you call yourself, and what religion do you call us?

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Salam

Rasool Allah saww said:: Haq is with Ali and Ali is with Haq.

I affirm that I am with Ali a.s.

If I am attacked I would defend(It is human nature) but not call it Islamic defense. Calling it Islamic makes it a Jihad.

If I have fear of death due to my belief then I will do Taqiyyah. If I have fear from America I will call myself American, christian or whatever, If I have fear from Wahabis, I will call myself Wahabi, If I have fear from Usoolis I will call myself Usooli.

BIMR: Innama Al Amaalo Bin Niyaat.

And your belief.

You belief is in Abubakar who is in your signature. I think you believe in disassociation(Tabarra or Baraa) but not from the enemies of Ahlul Bayth but from enemies of a Muslim Country. Making Itehaad with Wahabis has expelled you from Shiat obviously because a Shia disassociates from the enemies of Ahlul Bayth a.s.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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I just want to inform those who persist in debating with this man:

I have asked Sayyid Kashmiri (a wakil of S. Sistani in London) concerning those who deny parts of the Holy Qur'an and/or believe in ta7rif. It is obligatory to practise tabarra' on them because they have left Islam (see 2:159). And likewise attributing any kind of divinity to the Ma3soumin (as) is kufr.

Just don't bother and leave him.

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I just want to inform those who persist in debating with this man:

I have asked Sayyid Kashmiri (a wakil of S. Sistani in London) concerning those who deny parts of the Holy Qur'an and/or believe in ta7rif. It is obligatory to practise tabarra' on them because they have left Islam (see 2:159). And likewise attributing any kind of divinity to the Ma3soumin (as) is kufr.

Just don't bother and leave him.

It is not my personal opinion of what I have presented. It is from our hadith books and according to the same ayatollah's if a hadith is correct in its isnad then it should be accepted. All I am doing is presenting the hadith with the isnad.

Now, it is your choice to deny a sahih hadith and accept an Alim's verdict over the Hadith of Masoom a.s.

What form of Tabarra are you going to practise on me and assuming it as wajib whereas your own alim says Tabarra is Mustahib. It is only Wajib in my Aqaid so you should have a niyat of Mustahib.

Ya Ali Madad

Lanat of Allah swt is on the enemies of Ahlulbayth a.s. Ilahi Ameen.

Imam Ali a.s. said:

Iza Zahratul Bidaya Fal Yuzherul Alim Ilmahu Wa Lam Yaf Al Wa Lanat Ullahe Alaihe.

Lanat of Allah swt be on all those who initiated Bidat and on those who practice a Bidat.

Ya Ali Madad

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Let me make another thing clear to you about my belief. I believe Jihad is Haraam without the permission of Imam a.s.

And I believe it would be people like you who have violent and sunni tendencies who are going to bomb the true believers.

Americans, Israelis, Sunni, Wahabi, and people like you have common tendencies, i.e. Kill and cruel.

LAN Allahe ummatan Zulmatka.. Khatalatka... Same at bezalik wa razi at beh

Ya Ali Madad

The beliefs you hold clearly contradict the Shi'a Ithna'Ashari school of thought. Not to mention, some of what you said in this post is wrong.

You can believe that you are correct and that we are wrong, but you should know that we represent the Twelver Shi'a interpretation of Islam. Please enlighten me and tell me which branch of Islam you follow. Don't say Twelver, unless of course you and your people have re-made the school of thought into something that is entirely your own. You agree that you differ from Twelver Shi'a Muslims. Please enlighten me on the school of thought you follow so that I may better understand you.

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I just want to inform those who persist in debating with this man:

I have asked Sayyid Kashmiri (a wakil of S. Sistani in London) concerning those who deny parts of the Holy Qur'an and/or believe in ta7rif. It is obligatory to practise tabarra' on them because they have left Islam (see 2:159). And likewise attributing any kind of divinity to the Ma3soumin (as) is kufr.

Just don't bother and leave him.

Brother, what about some of our early scholars, who some claim beleived in tahreef?

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The beliefs you hold clearly contradict the Shi'a Ithna'Ashari school of thought. Not to mention, some of what you said in this post is wrong.

You can believe that you are correct and that we are wrong, but you should know that we represent the Twelver Shi'a interpretation of Islam. Please enlighten me and tell me which branch of Islam you follow. Don't say Twelver, unless of course you and your people have re-made the school of thought into something that is entirely your own. You agree that you differ from Twelver Shi'a Muslims. Please enlighten me on the school of thought you follow so that I may better understand you.

The Sunnis represent Muslims in the eyes of the west and that doesn't make them the true face of Islam. The same way anyone representing anybody doesn't matter in the eyes of Lord.

And to brother Iraqi Shia, why so hatred towards, Fadail of Moula Ali a.s.

Ya Ali Madad

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Salam,

1. I believe that Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun is a type of shia muslim that practices Islam with direct connection to the Imams. He believe that all Imams control the selves. They submit the selves to Allah swt through Imams. They believe they are capable of doing so. Only Imams can comment on this matter.

2. Other shias believe that practices should go through Alims (selected marja), who they believe that these Alims submits their selves solely for and directly to Imams.

Majority of Shias can't see the IMAMs (spiritually) because Imams are hidden from the physical eyes. But Alims are not hidden from the physical eyes of the people so they can seek advice directly.

It would be wrong to say that "following an Alim in practicing Islam" is not allowed. Like I stated in item #1. Only Imams can comment the direct relationship between them and the alim.

Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun, you really CAN"T comment on the status of these alims (marjas) in term of their relationship to the current Imams. You won't know. Only the Imams knows. So don't degrade them and their followers. The Alims themselves are humble enough and not telling about themselves in term of relation to the current Imams. Majority would deny it in order to be close to Imams.

However, following a bad Alim is wrong.

Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun,

It is the traits of Imams that never present a materials that will confuse the publics. And they got confused because of our writings, they may made a statement that will make them turn to kufr. Are you be happy to see people turn kufr? Surely our Imams will not be happy!!! Who will be responsible for that? Surely the person that introduce it. Present something that is easy for people to learn and benefit from it.

What the Prophet and Imams presented to Salman (ra) will be very hard for Abu Zar (ra) to understand...in fact will make Abu Zar become a kafir. Did the Prophet and Imams told these things to Abu Zar (ra). NO, they don't.

The hadiths that you presented were highly spiritual in nature. A person must fully understand Tauhid in order to understand the extend of the hadiths.

Layman

Edited by layman

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Brother, what about some of our early scholars, who some claim beleived in tahreef?

(salam)

I have never personally seen any authentic accounts of that. In any case, there shouldn't be doubts that whoever rejects the Holy Book (no matter how big or small a part of it), they have gone astray. Be they scholars or be they not.

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(salam)

I have never personally seen any authentic accounts of that. In any case, there shouldn't be doubts that whoever rejects the Holy Book (no matter how big or small a part of it), they have gone astray. Be they scholars or be they not.

Asslaam Alaikum Brother.

Brother, you have to be careful with what you say, just because you are unware of shia scholars who have explicitly said in tahreef Quruan, you shouldn't say "whoever says in tahreef is gone astray". No doubt we have many hadiths which indicate that tahreef did happen, but our scholars have explained these, some are authentic which need clarification and interpretation, and others are doubtle interms of their authencity. However, some of our scholars failed to understand these ahadith and said in tahreef, but this is called "Ishtibaah", ÇÔÊÈÇå, meaning they were in doubt that quruan was protected all the time in the hands of the so called "sahabah" due to the many traditions from our Aimma which indicate tahreef. But our greatest scholars such as Sadook, mufeed and Toosi have made it clear that whoever accuses the shia of believing in tahreef is a liar. There is even 2 sunni scholars that wrote books trying to prove tahreef did happen because they became uncertain dur to the many hadiths sunnis in their books which indicate tahreef.

Here is even scane from a sunni scholar who said in tahreef, his name is Khateeb Al-Sajistaani in his books Al-Masahef

cover1.jpg

2.jpg

2_2.jpg

Some exmaples

ßÇäÊ Ýí ÇáÈÞÑÉ : 259 { áã íÊÓä æÇäÙÑ } ÈÛíÑ åÇÁ ¡ ÝÛíÑåÇ " áóã íóÊóÓóäå " .

æßÇäÊ Ýí ÇáãÇÆÏÉ : 48 { ÔÑíÚÉ æãäåÇÌÇð } ¡ ÝÛíøÑåÇ " ÔöÑÚóÉð æóãöäåÇÌóÇð ".

æßÇäÊ Ýí íæäÓ : 22 { åæ ÇáÐí íäÔÑßã } ¡ ÝÛíøóÑåÇ " íõÓóíøÑõßõã " .

æßÇäÊ Ýí íæÓÝ : 45 { ÃäÇ ÂÊíßã ÈÊÃæíáå } ¡ ÝÛíøóÑåÇ " ÃäÇ ÃõäóÈöÆõßõã ÈöÊóÃæöíáöåö " .

æßÇäÊ Ýí ÇáÒÎÑÝ : 32 { äÍä ÞÓãäÇ Èíäåã ãÚÇíÔåã } ¡ ÝÛíøÑåÇ " ãóÚöíÔóÊóåõã " .

æßÇäÊ Ýí ÇáÊßæíÑ : 24 { æãÇ åæ Úáì ÇáÛíÈ ÈÙäíä } ¡ ÝÛíøÑåÇ { ÈöÖóäíäò }…

Wa Alaikum Alsalaam

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Salam,

1. I believe that Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun is a type of shia muslim that practices Islam with direct connection to the Imams. He believe that all Imams control the selves. They submit the selves to Allah swt through Imams. They believe they are capable of doing so. Only Imams can comment on this matter.

2. Other shias believe that practices should go through Alims (selected marja), who they believe that these Alims submits their selves solely for and directly to Imams.

Majority of Shias can't see the IMAMs (spiritually) because Imams are hidden from the physical eyes. But Alims are not hidden from the physical eyes of the people so they can seek advice directly.

It would be wrong to say that "following an Alim in practicing Islam" is not allowed. Like I stated in item #1. Only Imams can comment the direct relationship between them and the alim.

Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun, you really CAN"T comment on the status of these alims (marjas) in term of their relationship to the current Imams. You won't know. Only the Imams knows. So don't degrade them and their followers. The Alims themselves are humble enough and not telling about themselves in term of relation to the current Imams. Majority would deny it in order to be close to Imams.

However, following a bad Alim is wrong.

Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun,

It is the traits of Imams that never present a materials that will confuse the publics. And they got confused because of our writings, they may made a statement that will make them turn to kufr. Are you be happy to see people turn kufr? Surely our Imams will not be happy!!! Who will be responsible for that? Surely the person that introduce it. Present something that is easy for people to learn and benefit from it.

What the Prophet and Imams presented to Salman (ra) will be very hard for Abu Zar (ra) to understand...in fact will make Abu Zar become a kafir. Did the Prophet and Imams told these things to Abu Zar (ra) . NO, they don't.

The hadiths that you presented were highly spiritual in nature. A person must fully understand Tauhid in order to understand the extend of the hadiths.

Layman

Salamalaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaato Hu,

1. Brother, Imam Ali a.s. said: Nahno Ulema wa Shiatona Mutale moon. We are Ulema and our Shias are our students.

2. I believing in having a Marja who is a narrator of hadith. Now if a Mujtahid gives a fatwa how is it related to me as I am looking for Hadith from Masoom a.s. Marja is derived from Ruju(turn towards), it doesn't say follow. However there are Ahadith, which are contradictory. In one of them Imam a.s. says, How can Allah swt make incumbent (wajib) upon someone to follow who is hidden from the secrets of the earth and the heavens. And in another one Imam a.s. says, Follow the one who is Adil, doesn't have materialistic attachments and so on. I accept both the hadith and in the later one I believe that it is about Imam a.s. as no human being can achieve these attributes.

When the shias are students that means that they learn and without some one learning anyting at all how can he submit to the orders of a one perse who is derving fatwas from a hadith and not mentioning the Name of the Imam a.s. because Imam a.s. has explicitly said that do not accept a hadith if the narrator doesn't mention our name and what use is wa Allaho Alam if the fatwa is based on correct law, i.e., Quran and Ahadith.

Well I know that the Aimma a.s have the traits wherein they spoke according to the ability of the person to whom they are speaking and what I am speaking is basic shiasm. As you mentioned about the importance of Tauheed and we all know that Imam a.s. said Awwale Ilma Marefath Allah. The foremost knowledge is Marefath of Allah swt. And the one who doesn't believe in Wilayath has no connection to shiasm and I have just presented a very basic level of what Wilayath is.

Rasool Allah saww has made it mandatory on us to preach Wilayath and also stated that Wilayath is difficult to be believed in. Now, what wrong did I do if I am presenting wilayath to the ones who claim that they believe in Ali an Wali Allah.

Rasool Allah saww also said that when your children become 7 year old. Even if they don't know who Ali a.s is, ask them if they love him and if they say who he a.s. is or deny loving him then it confirms of their impure birth.

And I am speaking to a group who are atleast more than 12 years and still don't know who Ali e Wali is?

He is My Rabb?

Ya Ali Madad

'

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Salamalaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaato Hu,

1. Brother, Imam Ali a.s. said: Nahno Ulema wa Shiatona Mutale moon. We are Ulema and our Shias are our students.

2. I believing in having a Marja who is a narrator of hadith. Now if a Mujtahid gives a fatwa how is it related to me as I am looking for Hadith from Masoom a.s. Marja is derived from Ruju(turn towards), it doesn't say follow. However there are Ahadith, which are contradictory. In one of them Imam a.s. says, How can Allah swt make incumbent (wajib) upon someone to follow who is hidden from the secrets of the earth and the heavens. And in another one Imam a.s. says, Follow the one who is Adil, doesn't have materialistic attachments and so on. I accept both the hadith and in the later one I believe that it is about Imam a.s. as no human being can achieve these attributes.

When the shias are students that means that they learn and without some one learning anyting at all how can he submit to the orders of a one perse who is derving fatwas from a hadith and not mentioning the Name of the Imam a.s. because Imam a.s. has explicitly said that do not accept a hadith if the narrator doesn't mention our name and what use is wa Allaho Alam if the fatwa is based on correct law, i.e., Quran and Ahadith.

Well I know that the Aimma a.s have the traits wherein they spoke according to the ability of the person to whom they are speaking and what I am speaking is basic shiasm. As you mentioned about the importance of Tauheed and we all know that Imam a.s. said Awwale Ilma Marefath Allah. The foremost knowledge is Marefath of Allah swt. And the one who doesn't believe in Wilayath has no connection to shiasm and I have just presented a very basic level of what Wilayath is.

Rasool Allah saww has made it mandatory on us to preach Wilayath and also stated that Wilayath is difficult to be believed in. Now, what wrong did I do if I am presenting wilayath to the ones who claim that they believe in Ali an Wali Allah.

Rasool Allah saww also said that when your children become 7 year old. Even if they don't know who Ali a.s is, ask them if they love him and if they say who he a.s. is or deny loving him then it confirms of their impure birth.

And I am speaking to a group who are atleast more than 12 years and still don't know who Ali e Wali is?

He is My Rabb?

Ya Ali Madad

'

Salamu-alaikum Bro,

It is not for anyone to comment the connection between the Current Imam (or other Imams) to his sincere followers? And we also don't know what have been communicated. There are many who believe that Ahlulbayt is the Rabb to their nafs. The more closer their nafs to Ahlulbayt (as), the more information will be transmitted to them. And the more closer they are to the Current Imam (as), the more quiet they are and the more they are secrective about their relationship. Some will never tell until they die. Remember Adam (as) when Allah swt warned him not to get close to the tree! Those who told people publically about their closeness to the current Imam is like Adam (as) eating the fruit from the forbidden tree.

The communications between Ahlulbayt (as) to their followers are continuing even right now. This channel of communication never stop. That is the reason that Ahlulbayt (as) are the Rabb to very many people. They control these people, because these people submit their entire life for the sake of Ahlulbayt (as). There are such a people. It is just that we don't know many of Ahlulbayt (as) secrets. This is especially true in preparation of the coming back of the Current Imam (as).

Now let focus how the information about Islam, especially the intepretations of Qur'and and Hadith of Ahlulbayt (as) are relayed to us? One way (no one will deny) is through what have been written in books (we call hadiths) that contains sayings. We read (or based on what learned people told us) and we will try to make sense out of it.

What is another way? It is the direct communication from Ahlulbayt (as) of the inepretations of Qur'an, Hadiths, or any other issues (including engineering, physics...etc) to the sincere followers. We can't deny that whatever the intepretations of hadiths (for certain situations) by sincere followers be approved by Ahlulbayt (as) themselves!!! Afterall, Ahlulbayt (as) are the Rabb for these sincere people (e.g ulema) and there are communications established.

Yesterday, I was reading a hadith in the "Thinker's Discouse" in "what is knowledge/ilm?) http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234949742, Bro Fyst wrote:

áóíúÓó ÇáúÚöáúãõ ÈöÇáÊøóÚóáøõãö. ÅöäøóãóÇ åõæó äõæÑñ íóÞóÚõ Ýöí ÞóáúÈö ãóäú íõÑöíúÏõ Çááåõ ÊóÈóÇÑóßó æóÊóÚóÇáì Ãóä íóåúÏöíóåõ. ÝóÃöäú ÃóÑóÏúÊó ÇáúÚöáúãó ÝóÇØúáõÈú ÃóæøóáÇð Ýöíú äóÝúÓößó ÍóÞöíÞóÉó ÇáúÚõÈõæÏöíøóÉö. æóÇØúáõÈö ÇáúÚöáúãó ÈöÇÓúÊöÚúãóÇáöåö. æóÇÓúÊóÝúåöãö Çááåó íõÝúåöãúßó.

“Knowledge is not acquired by learning. It is only a light which Allah (Blessed and High is He) penetrates in the heart of one whom He intends to guide. So, if you desire knowledge, then first seek in yourself the reality of servitude. Then seek knowledge for its application. Ask Allah for its understanding, He will make you understand it.”

http://www.al-islam.org/salaat/12.htm

If Allah swt will that the Light of Ahlulbayt to be with an Alim...he will be able to inteprete the meaning of a hadith for a given situation/circumstances. Of cause it will happen by Allah swt permission and through the intercession of Ahlulbayt.

Now we have to know who are among the people on this earth that might have communication with the Ahlulbayt(as)? Then that is up to individual to assess and to find out.

If you read "Light within me" written by Allamah Tabatabai...you can understand his first spiritual experience and how he was guided. Otherwise, how could he wrote the "Al-Mizan".

I hope we should not lay down bad impressions about the marjas. I personally not an Iranian and not living in Iran. However, if I am iranian and living in Iran, I would follow Ayat Khamenei because I know he will lead the Iranian people to realize the wilayah of Imam Zaman (as). The same applies to people who are in Lebonan to follow strictly Shaikh Hassan Nasrallah if they want to resist the Zionist and achieve victory with the helps from the wilayat of Hussain and the Current Imam (as).

I know that there are differences in the intepretation of "syariah" parts between alims. Example, some say we can pray behind the sunnis. Some say we can't. Which one is correct? Look at the justifications. Each of the alim has given the circumstances for their rulings. The justfications and circumstantes change by time, priorities, conditions...bla bla..... The differences of justifications will be more prominent if we go into very details of the syariahs. Are these differences acceptable? Yes. Even in the hereafter when Allah swt question us on our actions, we will justify to the very, very, very detail. Allah swt will listen to our justifications so that we will not be punished. At the end of the day, Allah swt wanted to know whether in our actions contain the Light of Ahlulbayt. That is the sincerity in following Ahlulbayt(as) to the best of our understanding and abilities. That sincerity is what counted. The sincerity is the Light of Ahlulbayt (as). And the Light of Ahlulbayt (as) can't be put in hell. Therefore, those who has slightest love to Ahlulbayt (as) will eventually put to heaven. Those who hate Ahlulbayt (as) will not be able to smell the heaven, because they are syaitans.

Wallahualam

Layman

Edited by layman

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Salamu-alaikum Bro,

It is not for anyone to comment the connection between the Current Imam (or other Imams) to his sincere followers? And we also don't know what have been communicated. There are many who believe that Ahlulbayt is the Rabb to their nafs. The more closer their nafs to Ahlulbayt (as) , the more information will be transmitted to them. And the more closer they are to the Current Imam (as) , the more quiet they are and the more they are secrective about their relationship. Some will never tell until they die. Remember Adam (as) when Allah swt warned him not to get close to the tree! Those who told people publically about their closeness to the current Imam is like Adam (as) eating the fruit from the forbidden tree.

The communications between Ahlulbayt (as) to their followers are continuing even right now. This channel of communication never stop. That is the reason that Ahlulbayt (as) are the Rabb to very many people. They control these people, because these people submit their entire life for the sake of Ahlulbayt (as) . There are such a people. It is just that we don't know many of Ahlulbayt (as) secrets. This is especially true in preparation of the coming back of the Current Imam (as) .

Now let focus how the information about Islam, especially the intepretations of Qur'and and Hadith of Ahlulbayt (as) are relayed to us? One way (no one will deny) is through what have been written in books (we call hadiths) that contains sayings. We read (or based on what learned people told us) and we will try to make sense out of it.

What is another way? It is the direct communication from Ahlulbayt (as) of the inepretations of Qur'an, Hadiths, or any other issues (including engineering, physics...etc) to the sincere followers. We can't deny that whatever the intepretations of hadiths (for certain situations) by sincere followers be approved by Ahlulbayt (as) themselves!!! Afterall, Ahlulbayt (as) are the Rabb for these sincere people (e.g ulema) and there are communications established.

Yesterday, I was reading a hadith in the "Thinker's Discouse" in "what is knowledge/ilm?) http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234949742, Bro Fyst wrote:

áóíúÓó ÇáúÚöáúãõ ÈöÇáÊøóÚóáøõãö. ÅöäøóãóÇ åõæó äõæÑñ íóÞóÚõ Ýöí ÞóáúÈö ãóäú íõÑöíúÏõ Çááåõ ÊóÈóÇÑóßó æóÊóÚóÇáì Ãóä íóåúÏöíóåõ. ÝóÃöäú ÃóÑóÏúÊó ÇáúÚöáúãó ÝóÇØúáõÈú ÃóæøóáÇð Ýöíú äóÝúÓößó ÍóÞöíÞóÉó ÇáúÚõÈõæÏöíøóÉö. æóÇØúáõÈö ÇáúÚöáúãó ÈöÇÓúÊöÚúãóÇáöåö. æóÇÓúÊóÝúåöãö Çááåó íõÝúåöãúßó.

“Knowledge is not acquired by learning. It is only a light which Allah (Blessed and High is He) penetrates in the heart of one whom He intends to guide. So, if you desire knowledge, then first seek in yourself the reality of servitude. Then seek knowledge for its application. Ask Allah for its understanding, He will make you understand it.”

http://www.al-islam.org/salaat/12.htm

If Allah swt will that the Light of Ahlulbayt to be with an Alim...he will be able to inteprete the meaning of a hadith for a given situation/circumstances. Of cause it will happen by Allah swt permission and through the intercession of Ahlulbayt.

Now we have to know who are among the people on this earth that might have communication with the Ahlulbayt(as)? Then that is up to individual to assess and to find out.

If you read "Light within me" written by Allamah Tabatabai...you can understand his first spiritual experience and how he was guided. Otherwise, how could he wrote the "Al-Mizan".

I hope we should not lay down bad impressions about the marjas. I personally not an Iranian and not living in Iran. However, if I am iranian and living in Iran, I would follow Ayat Khamenei because I know he will lead the Iranian people to realize the wilayah of Imam Zaman (as) . The same applies to people who are in Lebonan to follow strictly Shaikh Hassan Nasrallah if they want to resist the Zionist and achieve victory with the helps from the wilayat of Hussain and the Current Imam (as) .

I know that there are differences in the intepretation of "syariah" parts between alims. Example, some say we can pray behind the sunnis. Some say we can't. Which one is correct? Look at the justifications. Each of the alim has given the circumstances for their rulings. The justfications and circumstantes change by time, priorities, conditions...bla bla..... The differences of justifications will be more prominent if we go into very details of the syariahs. Are these differences acceptable? Yes. Even in the hereafter when Allah swt question us on our actions, we will justify to the very, very, very detail. Allah swt will listen to our justifications so that we will not be punished. At the end of the day, Allah swt wanted to know whether in our actions contain the Light of Ahlulbayt. That is the sincerity in following Ahlulbayt(as) to the best of our understanding and abilities. That sincerity is what counted. The sincerity is the Light of Ahlulbayt (as) . And the Light of Ahlulbayt (as) can't be put in hell. Therefore, those who has slightest love to Ahlulbayt (as) will eventually put to heaven. Those who hate Ahlulbayt (as) will not be able to smell the heaven, because they are syaitans.

Wallahualam

Layman

As per what you said, I agree that some people would have connection with the Imam a.s. and they are the true momineen. I wouldn't say that I am connected eve if I have a connection. As you said, no one can say that they are close to the Imam a.s. then how do you believe at the same time that this or that Alim is close and due to his proximity, he will guide us. Whereas Allah swt warns that He swt is the guide. Masoom a.s. are the wasila and I have never heard that there is another wasila between us and them a.s.

You denfinately have the choice to follow an alim and deciding what your nafs says and to this I will say.

All the remaining ones are on the wrong path and are aides to Satan. Satan and his associates have taught them and they are the enemies of Allah swt, Prophet saww and Momineen. They will be sent to hell fire without any judgement/reservation, they have nothing to do with Allah swt and Rasool saww, they have worshiped others along with Him swt and hence committed Shirk and have became non-believers. Although they assume that they are on the right path as they take oaths in front of you. They will also say the same on the day of Judgement, O! Lord swt, we swear by Your Name, we were not among Mushrikeen, they will keep reiterating these words. They have the perception that they have proofs to support their beliefs but be aware! They are liars.

If Allah swt says that I was on the wrong path by following an alim who issued fatwas according to the social, political, and economic situations then I won't arguge and present proof to Allah swt. I believe, he knows everything the best and ask Him swt to forgive me rather than arguing about my correctness. If He swt says that I have committed shirk then I will humble myself infront of Him swt as He swt has said that He will forgive every sin but Shirk.

It will be completely in His swt's hands to do whatever.

I am not the one who is so disobedient to Allah swt by arguing with Him and providing justifications to Him who is Khaliq e Kulle Shai and He knows the intentions.

Ya Ali Madad

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As per what you said, I agree that some people would have connection with the Imam a.s. and they are the true momineen. I wouldn't say that I am connected eve if I have a connection. As you said, no one can say that they are close to the Imam a.s. then how do you believe at the same time that this or that Alim is close and due to his proximity, he will guide us. Whereas Allah swt warns that He swt is the guide. Masoom a.s. are the wasila and I have never heard that there is another wasila between us and them a.s.

Salamu-alaikum Bro,

At least we are in agreement that some people have connection with the Imams!

Let me tell you that all humans have connection with Imam (as). Because Imam is the guide / leader to all humans whether we realize it or not! He is the guide and he will perform his duties to guide us whether we acknowlegde his roles or not. If there is no imams exist, human kind will cease to exist. Everybody needs an Imam to exist...after all according to you Imam is taqwa... and wasila toward Allah swt. That is a fact. The same thing that all humans need Allah swt. Whether they acknowledge the existence of Allah swt is different story...Allah swt will always give HIS MERCY to anyone.

There is one thing that is common among human beings...they all have Light of Allah swt in their selves...located in their heart. But, whether they will suppress the light with darkness, that is a choice to make. The Light of Allah swt is the Ahlulbayt(as).

When Iblis was asked to make sajdah to Adam as... Iblis did not see the LIGHT in Adam (as). He failed to see the LIGHT of Allah in Adam (as). Angels saw it...they made the sajdah to the LIGHT in Adam (as) and not to physical Adam (as).

Those sincere people (among them are aalims or marjas), there is also a bright LIGHT of Ahlulbayt (as) in their heart. Ahlulbayt (as) in reality (real form) is the LIGHT of Allah swt. THe body parts of Ahlulbayt (as) are mean for them to communicate in the physical world. THe bodies will perish, but the LIGHT move on to exist in heart of the mukmin, mukliseen, muttaqeen, siddiqee...etc.

Among the sincere Aalims, the LIGHT that exist within their hearts help to inteprete the Qur'an and Hadiths to their conditions at that time. Again, I stated the LIGHT that exist in the alims that help through their body to deliver the message of truth. Again you agreed with me that there is a RABB for every nafs ...and Ali is the RABB of the sincere nafs...and ALI can talk to us through that sincere NAFS... am I right? Can Ali (as) inteprete their own sayings (hadiths) through the heart and nafs of an alim to us base on conditions such social, economics, places...whatever physical constraints are?

If we failed to see the LIGHT of Allah swt in an sincere Alim / marja...then we are the same as Iblis not seeing the LIGHT of Allah swt in Adam (as)...therefore we can be like Iblis and start to make accusation that others are no good and others are misguided. Iblis was very sincere in his statement in degrading Adam (as).

Bro siraatoaliyinhaqqun,

I really like you to ponder to what I wrote above and hopefully you NOT making statement that belittle our ulamas. I am afraid the story of Iblis (la) will be part our life and we are doomed forever.

Now comes to the question of how do we know this aalim or that aalim is close proximity to Imam (as) and he can guide us? Verily mukmins are brothers! That what the qur'an has stated. We are brothers because the LIGHT of Allah swt that connects between us. THose who are sincere in the love to Ahlulbayt (as) know each other and feel each other because they have the same LIGHT in their heart.

If we feel that we are weak in taqwa or eeman (the presence of Ali as a RABB in our nafs is too little) then seek help from sincere aalim (or anybody else). If we don't know which aalim is guided, then we make the best effort to find one with whatever means available. After all, finding an aalim that has a close proximity to the Current Imam (as) is same as we are trying to find the Imam (as) himself, because the LIGHT that exist in the heart of the aalim is the LIGHT from Imams. We should refer back the concept of ALI is the RABB of the NAFS.

I am afraid if we condemn an aalim, and if so happen that the LIGHT of Ahlulbayt shines very bright in the aalim heart... then we are condemning the RABB of the nafs...the Imam himself. Therefore, be careful!

Layman

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Salamalaikum,

1. I agree that Noor of Allah swt is present in everybody's heart. In Quran Allah swt says that He guides whom He willeth. That is the reason we call Imam as Imam Al Mutaqeen. So, a person with Taqwa is guided.

2. Adam a.s. and the story of Iblees. There are certain aspects of this which we need to understand.

a. Adam a.s. had Noor of Ahlulbayth a.s. inside him a.s, to which even you agree.

b. Everyone has this noor inside them but we cannot bow to who ever we like. Even the wahabi sitting in Egypt's Al Azhar has that light, so wlll you bow to him or to the light within him, if you do so you will have to follow what he says because he has noor. So, you can now understand that irrespective of having light without the back up of the order of Allah swt we cannot bow towards anybody.

c. Imam Mahdi ajf said: Turn to the narrator of Ahadith, he did not say do there Taqleed if not your Amaal would be Baatil(void).

Now explain to me what this means:

�When such a time comes and you cannot meet your Imam-e-Zamana(sws), you should continue to follow the orders from Aimma(sws) which you already have until the reappearance of Imam(sws) is announced or proven.�

(Beharul Anwaar vol.11 p, 672)

I am trying to be a Mutaqi as it is an important requirement to call Imam Ali a.s. as my Imam and if I am abdiing the order of Allah swt which is the above hadith then how do my Amaal become void.

and this

I will punish every Muslim group who recognized the leadership of any unjust ruler whom I do not select, even if the individuals of such a group are pious and God-fearing. I, likewise, will forgive every Muslim group that recognized (only) the leadership of the just imams whom I appointed, even if the individuals of such a group wrong (themselves) and commit bad deeds.

Refer to al-Mahaasin; 94, al-Kafi; 1:376 H.4, Thawab ul-A'maal; 245 H.1, al-Ayyashi's Tafsir; 1:139, al-Ghaybah; an-Numani 132, Alikhtisas; 259, Bisharat ul-Mustafa; 217, A'lam ud-Din; 247, Ghayat ul-Maram; 12 H.11, 27:193 H.51, 68:142.

So, if I do not do Taqleed of Mujtahid because Adil Imam are only 12 and no other human has the caliber to be of that status, then why am I on the wrong path.

The very aspect of shia belief is that Imam Mahdi ajf will come to give justice. He will face so much resistance from people because of the Bidaat they have introduced in the deen of Aale Mohammad.

When you believed that Imam Ali a.s. is your Rabb is Wilaya and Ita'a then why are you encouraging shirk in Wilaya by calling someone Naib of Imam and Shirk in Ita'a by following some one other than your Rabb, which is Imam Ali a.s.

Ya Ali Madad

Salamu-alaikum,

If you are made known to the concept of Tauhid and how the NOOR of Ahlulbayt (as) flows through the heart of sincere people, you will not judge others and attribute false accusations to them.

If I respect anyone, it is because there is NOOR of Ahlulbayt in them (regardless whether the person cover the noor with darkness in his heart). Physically, I will practice taqiyah to avoid the dark side of the person from attacking me. However, I will try to attack the dark side with whatever duas (weapon of the mukmins) to thwart it. Because duas from Imams are like a laser beam...it penetrates and destroy the darkside.

That is why Imam Ali (as) said...respect other because they are the same belief or at least they are fellow humans. Respect others because they are fellow humans...is a form of taqiyah (attacking the dark side of the humans)

Our purpose of life is to promote the situation so that the LIGHT within the heart of the human can shine and defeat the darkside of the person.

How do we know that at what moments the light shines in the heart of a person, and at what time it won't. If we don't know the condition of Light in other people, it is better to assume goodness.

And when we talk to non-muslims or wahabis, they are not all the times controlled by darkness and we know that sometimes they will also talk about or present certain truth in their actions...and at that moment, some portion of the light shines. And at that moment of time, we have to agree with them (or in other words, we bow down to the truth, the Light of Allah swt). And when the darkness totally dominates their heart, we make taqiyah. At the same time, if they physically wanted to kill us...we will fight in defense (physically through words, guns, swords or whatever legitimate means). We fight with the belief to finish up the darkside so the syaitans can not longer use that person body to create fitnah again.

I remember when Imam Hussain was about to be decapitated by Shimr (la), Imam asked Shimr..."I am thirsty, give me water to drink". Why did Imam ask?. It was a last try to let the NOOR of Allah shine from the heart of Shimr so that he can be saved. But Shimr (la) rejected. Even at the last point of life Imam will try to save human. See how Imam Ali treated Ibn Muljam and Aisyah after they were caught?

Now, if we always label others as "ahli bid'ah"...and we really don't know the truth about that aalims and what in their heart...therfore, we are making assumption when we call them ahlul bid'ah!!! Bad assumption about others is haram.

Now I would like to ask you Bro... can you see the LIGHT of Ahlulbayt in someone? If you don't, please do not make bad assumptions about our ulamas. If you do, then I will stop discussing this matter.

Now come to the intepretation of Qur'an or Hadiths of Imam when it been presented to us. Some hadiths of Imams were full of hidden secrets....who is willing to interprete. Are you willing to inteprete? If you are, how sure are you that your intepretation is accurate and according to Imam wishes that it should be interpretated!!!

You have qouted many hadiths from maksumiin in this discussion... how sure are you that your understanding of the hadiths were according to intepretations of our Imams??? Who supposedly to do the intepretation? Whom should we follow in term of intepretation. And according to you other than the maksumiin, there are all not adil. It will be a shirk to listen to them.

You said that Imam Mahdi (as) will face so much resistant from those who make bid'ah in the deen of aale Muhammad. Yes I agreed in general with the statement. For me, the resistance will come from those people (ulemas or normal followers) who do not have "light" in their heart.

To judge a person, persons or aalims that they are making bid'ah, the person must have vision to see that LIGHT in others. If a person doesn't have that vision, his judgement is just purely assumption. To get the faculty that enable a person to see the LIGHT in people will NOT be easy and it will be given to just anybody. Avoid making judgement...resort to duas so that Allah swt give guidance even to our enemies (those whom we think currently making bid'ah). If we want to curse, please curse the syaitans that bring darkness to the heart of people.

You wrote earlier

Rasool Allah saww said:: Haq is with Ali and Ali is with Haq.

I affirm that I am with Ali a.s.

How sure are you that Ali a.s is with you? If you are not sure, DON'T judge others!!!! Because that judgement may come from you and NOT from the RABB of your nafs...which is Ali a.s!!

Layman

Edited by layman

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Salam,

Brother,

Ali a.s. is not with me but I am greatful that I am with Imam Ali a.s. I will tell you one thing about Shiism, i.e., Tabarra.

Tabarra is disassociating from the enemies of Ahlulbayth. And the inner aspect of it is to ask Allah swt to send lanat on someone.

How do I recognise the enemy of Islam, Allah swt and Ahlulbayt a.s. when I do not have power?

Through Ahadith of Masoomeen a.s.

1. Lanat on Zalemeen, Lanat on those who kill and lanat on those who keep quiet *razi at behi*

2. Creators of Bidah in Islam are out of Islam, so we can do Lanat on them. (Rasool Allah saww said: Iza Zahratun Bidaya Alim Ilmahu wa Il lam taf fal lanat ullahe aleihim.

3. The one who openly says that he doesn't like Ali a.s.

4. A Nasibi who becomes a Shia's enemy because of his belief in Wilaya of Imam Ali a.s., i.e., Rububiya (he a.s is the Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a)

5. Those who are against the symbols of Ashura and our Amaul during Moharrum and Arbayeen.

There is an endless list however if we sit quiet and say we do not know anything and we cannot say he is bad or good because he has noor in him then why do you use Aql in the laws of Allah swt and why is Allah swt asking you to do Tafakkur (Fikr) in Quran.

Now some Tawalla

Ameer-Ul Momineen (a.s) said:

'I am the Lord of Paradise, He Who hath caused the rain to fall and the earth to quake and the sun and moon to be eclipsed. I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe'

Khutbat'ul Iftikhar ( The Sermon of Glorification)

Ya Ali you are my Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a, so how can I do Shirk Moula.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Salam,

Brother,

Ali a.s. is not with me but I am greatful that I am with Imam Ali a.s. I will tell you one thing about Shiism, i.e., Tabarra.

Tabarra is disassociating from the enemies of Ahlulbayth. And the inner aspect of it is to ask Allah swt to send lanat on someone.

How do I recognise the enemy of Islam, Allah swt and Ahlulbayt a.s. when I do not have power?

Through Ahadith of Masoomeen a.s.

1. Lanat on Zalemeen, Lanat on those who kill and lanat on those who keep quiet *razi at behi*

2. Creators of Bidah in Islam are out of Islam, so we can do Lanat on them. (Rasool Allah saww said: Iza Zahratun Bidaya Alim Ilmahu wa Il lam taf fal lanat ullahe aleihim.

3. The one who openly says that he doesn't like Ali a.s.

4. A Nasibi who becomes a Shia's enemy because of his belief in Wilaya of Imam Ali a.s., i.e., Rububiya (he a.s is the Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a)

5. Those who are against the symbols of Ashura and our Amaul during Moharrum and Arbayeen.

There is an endless list however if we sit quiet and say we do not know anything and we cannot say he is bad or good because he has noor in him then why do you use Aql in the laws of Allah swt and why is Allah swt asking you to do Tafakkur (Fikr) in Quran.

Now some Tawalla

Ameer-Ul Momineen (a.s) said:

'I am the Lord of Paradise, He Who hath caused the rain to fall and the earth to quake and the sun and moon to be eclipsed. I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe'

Khutbat'ul Iftikhar ( The Sermon of Glorification)

Ya Ali you are my Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a, so how can I do Shirk Moula.

Ya Ali Madad

Salam Bro,

You have come to a conclusion that your belief of Tabarra...is through READING hadiths. Now we will have a problem because "you" will make the intepretation through reading and NOT the RABB who inteprete!

You wrote...

'I am the Lord of Paradise, He Who hath caused the rain to fall and the earth to quake and the sun and moon to be eclipsed. I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe'

Khutbat'ul Iftikhar ( The Sermon of Glorification)

We should not inteprete...only maksumiin do everything...they should interpret...NOT US.

Our job is to just to WITNESS... "I witness there is no GODs but Allah... I witness Muhammad is HIS Prophet... I witness Ali is HIS wali".

We can't just shout outs, proclaims, make statements about others...and all of these were all from very our intepretation.

Sincere Aalims or Ulamas are those we called "selfless" individuals ...they have reached to the level of "witnessing"...they don't do things unless they are told by their RABB. Their RABB inteprete everythings and use the aalim nafs to help muslims.... This is the meaning that the Current IMAM is still operating ...like "The Sun behind the clouds".

The sincere Aalims must keep themselves doing ibadats...the state of witnessing 24 hours. Otherwise, they may inteprete things according to their nafs...and they will be cursed by their RABB. Therefore, these aalims are higher than shuhadas... because they constantly battling shaitans (the # 1 enemies of Ahlubayt).

Bro...

Do you now understand the concept of RABB of the NAFS...the need to attach to Ahlulbayt...hadith saqalain? How to hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (as)?

Ya Ali you are my Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a, so how can I do Shirk Moula.

The shirk can happen if "you inteprete" the words of Imams instead of your Rabb does it for you....!

Layman

Edited by layman

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Salamalaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa barakaato Hu,

You are dwindling from one way to the other. The right of interpretation of Quran lies with Masomeen a.s. It is interpreted through Ahadith of Masoomeen a.s.

Both Quran and Ahadith have Mohkam and Mutashabih verses.

For e.g. when Imam Ali a.s. was asked for the interpretation for the verse of a Quran. He a.s. said, the right of interpreting this verse is with Imam Al Mahdi ajf. There are certain Ahadith as well which needs interpretation (Mutashabeh) as well and we don't need to do Fikr in such Ahadith but for the ones like I quoted, i.e., 'I am the Lord of Paradise, He Who hath caused the rain to fall and the earth to quake and the sun and moon to be eclipsed. I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe', "is a clear proof that The Rabb of Ali a.s. has appointed Ali a.s. to do such tasks."

Khutbat'ul Iftikhar ( The Sermon of Glorification)

It has been recommended from Aimma a.s. that we should take what they have given us and should stop from what they haven't.

Now, your argument that they have reached a certain level is false because to be called an Islamically educated person he should be well educated in Marefath of Allah swt, i.e., through ahlulbayth a.s. and Marefath of Sharia through Ahlulbayth a.s., whereas most Faqih of present day are only aware of Sharia aspect.

Imam Sadiq a.s. says: Man Urefa Haqeeqa wal Sharia bila Imam, Faqad Kufr.

How do I know this?

1. Many Fuqaha say that all the prophets were greater than Ali a.s.

2. Many also firmly believe that Mohammad saww and Ali a.s. were not equal.

3. I also doubt that many presently sitting in Najaf and Qum today would reject the original hadith where it says Imam Ali a.s. is your Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a. Had they believed in it they would have said that Ali an Wali Allah is a wajib part of Adhan, Iqama, Kalima, Tashauud etc.

Marefath of Ahlulbayth a.s. and Marefath of Sharia are interlinked and interdependent. You cannot say that a layman cannot gain marefath and only some one who has studied in a university can be affirmed to be an Arif. You cannot even say what is in the heart of a person. Someone may seem irreligious but in reality may be closer to Allah swt than most well known ulema.

If it was not so, then Imam Ali a.s. would not have said: Nahno Ulema wa Shiatona Mutalemoon.

We are Ulema and our Shias are our students.

If Ayatollahs are the only students directly learning from Mazdar of Ahlulbayth a.s., then you don't have the right to call yourself shia.

Because I do not believe in Ayatoallahism, I am attached directly to Ahlulbayth a.s. and do not need a wasila to reach Ahul Bayth a.s. I know I need a Marja and that Marja would be a Narrator of Ahadith and I will do Taqleed of the Hadith of Masoom a.s. and not the person who is giving me the Hadith.

My markaz, mazdar, imam, hujjat, rabb, etc are only Masoomeen a.s. I believe that they have a creator and the best thing about me is that I am Muntazzir e Imam Mahdi ajf.

As for your question that: The shirk can happen if "you inteprete" the words of Imams instead of your Rabb does it for you....!

Yes, my Rabb will do it for me if He wills and if He finds me worth it but how about you, you depend on some other Rabb to interpret for you in a prejudice that they are the only ones who can have a connection, isnt't it?

When Allah desires to guide someone, He expands his breast to Islam. When He desires to misguide someone, He makes his breast narrow and constricted as if he were climbing up into the sky. That is how Allah defiles those who do not believe. (Surat al-An'am, 125)

Brother, it doesn't make sense at times that you consult a doctor for every little thing. It is better to have a first aid kit at home. Whereas if you see Islam's perspective. Allah swt has not only given us a first Aid kit in the form of Duas but also a complete religion which was completed on the Day of declaration of Wilaya and my Moula's rabb has not ommitted anything from the Quran and neither has Rasool Allah saww left an incomplete Deen with a space for Itjehaad, Aql(qiyas), etc.

Ya Ali Madad

Ya Ali Anta Masal ul Alaa.

Ya Ali Anta Hijaab Allah.

Ya Ali Anta Salatul Momin.

Ya Ali Anta Urwathil Wuthqa.

Ya Ali Anta Deen Ul Haqq.

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Salamu-alaikum Bro...

This where I disagreed with you...

Both Quran and Ahadith have Mohkam and Mutashabih verses.

For e.g. when Imam Ali a.s. was asked for the interpretation for the verse of a Quran. He a.s. said, the right of interpreting this verse is with Imam Al Mahdi ajf. There are certain Ahadith as well which needs interpretation (Mutashabeh) as well and we don't need to do Fikr in such Ahadith but for the ones like I quoted, i.e., 'I am the Lord of Paradise, He Who hath caused the rain to fall and the earth to quake and the sun and moon to be eclipsed. I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe', "is a clear proof that The Rabb of Ali a.s. has appointed Ali a.s. to do such tasks."

Khutbat'ul Iftikhar ( The Sermon of Glorification)

How do we fikr on a hadith?...our nafs are dirty. Unless our nafs is fully guided by the RABB. Even for clear hadith (according to you opinion), we still need to think about it and make sense based on our situations/condition/experience. People are different in back ground/ education / experience. How to know our fikr is correct? We don't know, we just assume it is correct. Therefore, I would preferred to hear what others (especially aalims) whom I feel are lots better than me in term of sincerity, to inteprete it first. Yes, I can also do the fikr first, but I will still refer to others. However, I still refer back to the RABB of my nafs for final intepretation...with the hope ahlulbayt will make me understand. The means Ahlulbayt make us understand...sometimes directly, but sometimes through other sincere people.

The job of the aalims is to offer his sincere efforts (relying on wilayat of Ahlulbayt a.s) to write explanations of hadiths from Imams (as) based on circumstances/ evidences / knowledge /... and offer that to the people. If you read adabus Salat...how Imam Khomeini struggled to made that book. He has to deny his ownself of having any values whatsoever, but only hope that Allah swt and Ahlulbayt (as) to assist him..

I dedicate Adabus Salat -the book from which I had no benefit except regret because of my failure and negligence of the days during which I could have made myself, and except contrition and remorse during old age, being empty-handed, with a heavy burden, and a long way to go, with a lame leg, while the call of departure is ever resounding in my ears.

To his son...Haply he will succeed in finding his way to the real ascension through the guidance of "the people of knowledge" [ahl-i ma'rifat], and tear off his heart from this dark dungeon, and head for the original destination of humanity, along the road on which the great prophets, the noble "holy men" [awliya'] -may Allah's blessing and peace be upon them all and the "people of Allah" [ahlullah] trod, and to which they invited the others.

O my son! Hasten to comprehend yourself, which is fermented in "the divine disposition" [fitratullah]. Save yourself from the ruining whirlpool of the formidable waves of self-conceit and selfishness. Get on board Noah's Ark, which is the light of "Allah's guardianship" [wilayatullah], because: " Whoever got on board it was safe, and whoever stayed behind it perished."

By the way, majority of Shias believed that Ahlulbayt are the Rabb of the Nafs...In Ghadir Khum..when the Prophet (pbuh) said..."Am I not closer to your own selves than you?" Then the people answer...Yes! The Rasul said "Min kun tum Maula, wa aali yun Maula", "If I am the Maula for you, then Ali is your Maula"... That was enough to say that Ali is the Rabb of Nafs of Mukmins....

Regarding the maarefat of Ahlulbayt (as), it is common belief among shias that Ali is Waliyulah...for the Nafs and everything elss. Maarefat of Ahlulbayt (as) is a gift to those sincere followers. No one can claim that he/she has gained maarefat of Ahlulbayt (as). This matter lies with Ahlulbayt (as) themselves...they will give sign to each individuals who get it. That individuals can't bragg about it to whole world that he was blessed with that maarefat. If he/she does it (without permission), he/she will be cut off. Just like Adam (as) was taken from the blessings when he ate the fruit from the forbidden tree.

To judge others are "kurf, outlaws, bad, misguided...bla bla" for not having maarefat of Ahlulbayt (as) is not our jobs, because we are not given of that maarefat, we are not Ahlulbayt (as). Unless Ahlubayt (as) made it known to us directly with proofs. THen that is a different story all together.

I would like you specified who are those "aalims/grand aalims" that don't have the maarefat of Ahlulbayt (as)? Such as they wrote nonsense about the wilayat of Ali (as). List their names, especially those who are in Qum and Najaf.

If Ayatollahs are the only students directly learning from Mazdar of Ahlulbayth a.s., then you don't have the right to call yourself shia.

Because I do not believe in Ayatoallahism, I am attached directly to Ahlulbayth a.s. and do not need a wasila to reach Ahul Bayth a.s. I know I need a Marja and that Marja would be a Narrator of Ahadith and I will do Taqleed of the Hadith of Masoom a.s. and not the person who is giving me the Hadith.

If you believed that that ayatollahs NOT the only students directly learning from mazdar of Ahlulbayt (as)...that is not a PROBLEM at all. We are free to choose for ourselves on this issue. Since you believe that "to be the students" is opened to any sincere followers of Ahlulbayt (as)...then some of the students can happened to be ayatullah (as)...for example Imam Khomeini.

If you read Imam Khomeini books, especially the Light Within Me...you will conclude that he had the maarefat of Ahlulbayt (as) and he can be trusted. We don't try to make judgement...but belief in goodness is better than labelling others as kufr.

My markaz, mazdar, imam, hujjat, rabb, etc are only Masoomeen a.s. I believe that they have a creator and the best thing about me is that I am Muntazzir e Imam Mahdi ajf.

Don't bragg about your OWN self... you are about to be thrown from the ship!!! You are not careful!!! Imam Khomeini wrote adabus salat...see how he lowered himself and did not claiming anything!!!

Brother, it doesn't make sense at times that you consult a doctor for every little thing. It is better to have a first aid kit at home.

Hadith saqalain is the proof that everything we do in 24 hours...must be while holding on to Ahlulbayt (as)...when sleeping, taking shower, eating, driving, working, shopping...you name all the activities...it has to be performed while holding on to Ahlulbayt (as). Then only our actions are considered ibadah, and not just refering to fiqh issues.

All duas from Imam (as) are weapons to be utilized by the Shias for guiding them on how to move on their activities on daily basis... Ad-Dua silah tu mukmins. Without duas, mukmins can't fight the syaitans, and we can be defeated in no time because duas are also our rope to Imams.

Bro,

My biggest concerns with you when you defined yourself as if you are already with the truth and you make judgement about other personalities...to the level of kufr. Quoting hadiths are okay...intepretating to suit your belief is a "judgement call". This is where we differ.

Layman

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salaam alaikum

Thanks brother Layman and brother Siraatoaliyinhaq for debating this topic in such detail. I favour Layman's position but Siraatoaliyinhaq makes some powerful use of hadith. I'm still thinking about this saying of Imam Ali, a.s.:

"We are Ulema and our Shias are our students"

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Salamalaikum,

You speak tons about Hadith Thaqlain but are you really following Thaqlain. I have never used a Hadith or ayat to suit my beliefs but I have tried to hold the belief it conveys. It is you guys when debating with sunnis calim that Ulil Amr, Ahle Dhikr, etc is Imam a.s. and when it comes to proving Usoolism you give the first proof of it and quote the Ayatollahs to be Ulil Amr and Ahle Dhikr.

Waiting for Imam Mahdi ajf is the biggest ibadat I can do that is the reason I always say that my ancestors before ghayba did not have this great opportunity because the believers of this time are the best of the believers according to Imam Zain ul Abedeen a.s. I believe he ajf is with all shias who are learners and hold on to urwathil Wuthqa.(read Ayatal Kursi and try to understand who Urwathil Wuthqa is and who is Taghoot.

And you should realise that having Marefath is not sufficient because the stages are: Aql then Ilm then Marefath then Mohabbat then Amal, so on... if there is no amal after mohabbat and Marefath then one should reflect again in to his own heart.

So, Amal is very important part of your belief and saying about Hadith e Thaqlain and Hadith e Safina on one hand and adding Ijtehad, Aql etc AND adding a word that without taqleed of Ghair Masoom Amaal would be void.

I do not claim that I know, I believe that I will learn from craddle to grave and die a learner and my best teacher is Allah swt, Rasool Allah and Aimma a.s. The knowledgeable ones are the hadith narrators from whom I take Hadith and think over it.

As for your question: "How do we fikr on a hadith?...our nafs are dirty"

It is not necessary that what you have concluded is the same as my conclusion.

I am talking about Ahadith related to Marefath e Nooraniya and not Marefath e Sharia because in Marefath e Sharia all Halaal have been explained and all Haraam have been explained.

For e.g. The hadith where it says Imam Ali a.s. ordered the sun to rise back.

Some conclude that, because Rasool Allah saww splept and had he slept and his Salaat would have been khada mazallah.

But as for as my understanding goes, Rasool Allah saww was also an Imam although we are not allowed to call him Imam. And had he saww slept, the Salaat of the Sun and of all the Makhlookheen would have been Khada. That is the reason, Imam Ali a.s. gave them the opportunity to perform their Wajib Salat by ordering the sun to rise back.

There are many preliminary requirements for Love of Ali a.s. to be in your heart. First of all, you should be of good birth and he a.s. is Imam of Mutaqeen so you should be a Mutaqee too. Allah swt guides whom He wills and if He wills He can guide anyone who is worth guidance and the rest have a seal on their hearts and are the deniers and you know who the deniers are?

As for as people against Wilayat e Ali a.s.

Wilayat e Ali a..s is wajib as well as lazim, without which there is no existence because he a.s. is the Rabb in Wilaya and Ita'a.

Read the Tawzi ul Masail or ask any Usooli Alim, they have an Ijma that the Kalima of our Rabb is Mustahib, some also go to the extent of calling it a bidat. When it is neither a part of Kalima, Azan, Iqamah, Tashauud, then how come reciting it is good according to some and why they keep it in their books.

If faith is uttering from the tongue and practicing it then how could Ali an Wali Allah be Mustahib.

Ask yourself dear.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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