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Bektashi Shia Standup To Reactionary Sunnis

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As soon as I crossed the border into Macedonia, I felt like I had been whisked through a hole in the dimension from southeastern Europe to somewhere in Arabia.

Hijabs aren't strictly Islamic. There are Muslim countries all over the world where few women wear them. It's a cultural import from the Arab world. There is nothing wrong with wearing a hijab by choice (they are required by law in Iran), and it would be wrong to assume a woman or her family are Islamist extremists based on their head gear, but I was still startled to see so many in Macedonia. Albanian women do not traditionally wear them. It was obvious that soft-imperial Arab “missionaries” from the Gulf are having a much more profound effect on the ground in Macedonia than in Kosovo.

Shpetim Mahmudi teaches at the University of Tetovo and belongs to the Bektashi order of Sufi mystics. The Bektashis are part of a distinct branch of Shia Islam, and many self-identify as the most liberal on Earth. These are the last people in the Islamic world who will join any kind of jihad. They drink alcohol, for instance, and they are not obligated to pray five times every day in a mosque. Bektashi women don't wear oppressive clothing, and their feelings of openness toward people of other faiths is genuine. Naturally they are detested by Wahhabis and other radical Sunnis as much as they would be if they were pagans or Jews.

Shpetim%20Mahmudi.jpg

Shpetim Mahmudi

“We don’t pray 5 times a day like the Sunnis,” Mahmudi said. “We are similar to Ismailis, and we’re treated badly in Turkey because we don’t go to the mosque. Here in Macedonia, the Sunnis don’t treat us as Muslims. They say this sometimes. They want to be the only one representing the entire community, and they say we should come under their umbrella.”

Bektashi Sufis are no less Islamic than the Wahhabis. They are arguably even more so. Their order is hundreds of years older, after all. But they aren't chauvinists about their religion, and they don't spend billions in petrodollars on a crusade to convert the planet.

“We have nothing to do with the Arab ways,” he said, “but now we’re dressing like them. This is not nice for us. We are close to Americans, not the Middle East. We don’t have that in Albania.”

“Is it getting better or worse here?” I said.

“It was worse ten years ago,” he said. “But it has always been worse in Macedonia. There have always been more fundamentalists here. Macedonia is poorer and less educated. Now it is getting better. But it is changing slowly.”

It’s hard to believe it was worse ten years ago. The difference between the Albanian region of Macedonia and the Albanian regions of every other place – Albania proper, Kosovo, and Montenegro – amazed me. Also, there were no Wahhabis in Macedonia or anywhere else in Yugoslavia during the communist era. The Macedonian Muslim community appears to be fracturing. If a majority of Albanian-Macedonian Muslims are becoming more secular and modern at the same time a minority is becoming more radical – watch out.

“Why is it so much worse here than in Kosova?” I said. “It feels oppressive.”

“It’s different in Kosova,” he said, “thanks to America and NATO. If Kosova cooperated with Muslim countries instead, it would be different. Americans are bringing their culture to Kosova and Albania, but not to Macedonia.”

“What do ethnic Macedonians thinks of Americans?” I said. Ethnic Macedonians are Slavic Orthodox Christians who once belonged to Yugoslavia, but they are not Serbs. They speak their own language, which is similar to Bulgarian, and they have their own cultural traditions.

“You see that?” he said and gestured to a building with opaque glass windows. “They took it from us and turned it into a classroom for their propaganda. An Egyptian woman teaches Albanian women in Arabic even though no one speaks Arabic here. Don’t let anyone see you take a picture of it.”

There weren’t many people around. We both made sure no one was looking. Then I snapped a quick picture and covered my camera again with my jacket.

Occupied%20Building%20Teqe%20Macedonia.jpg

One of the Sufi buildings at the tekke forcibly seized by radical Sunnis

Dervish Abdulmytalib Beqini

“Thank you for letting me visit,” I said.

“Americans are most welcome here,” he said.

“I see you have an American flag,” I said. You won’t find many of those in Islamic holy sites in the Arab world.

American%20Flag%20Gunslot%20Teqe%20Macedonia.jpg

“Yes,” Dervish Beqini said. “We light up the flag with a candle at night. Do you know what those slots are for?” He meant the slot where the flag and candle were perched.

I had an idea.

“What are they for?” I said.

“They are for protecting the tekke,” he said. “We used to fire guns through those slots.”

The Bektashi Sufis participated in various resistance movements against the Turkish Ottoman Empire.

“Bektashis here always fought for the Albanian cause,” Dervish Beqini. “Some clerics were at one tekke fighting the Turks, and the Turks came and occupied it. Inside were some non-Bektashis, some Orthodox Christians, and they were hidden in the tekke. The baba was very well-known and he took these Christians, put dervish clothes on them, and introduced them to the Turks as Dervish Mark and Dervish Michael, the same names, just with Dervish added. So this baba covered them and saved the lives of Christian people. Both the Christians and Muslims were fighting for the Albanian cause. The Bektashis will fight against occupation. For freedom. For schools. For educating people. Equality and tolerance are our values.”

Jewish%20Gravestone%20Teqe%20Macedonia.jpg

A Jewish gravestone chisled in Hebrew at the Sufi tekke

“When Osama Bin Laden attacked the two towers,” he continued, “the first cleric leader in the world who judged this crucial attack as non-human was the world Bektashi father at the headquarters in Tirana. He publicly denounced this attack. He even went to the Embassy of the U.S. to present his judgment.”

“How long have you had problems with the Wahhabis here?” I said.

“Serious trouble started three years ago when they broke gravestones,” he said. “They didn’t respect our saints. They also broke pictures of Imam Ali on the walls, and of the world head of the Bektashis. They cut the pictures with knives. They think we are too close to Christianity, in part because of the pictures and candles.” The Wahhabis hate candles. “Then the Sunnis came in and occupied the tekke. They said This is Muslim territory.”

ALI ALI ALI ALI ALI

Ali%20Painting%20Macedonia.jpg

A painting of Ali. Shia Muslims, including Bektashi Sufis, believe his descendents are the rightful successors of Mohammad.

Of course the tekke was “Muslim territory” already. Bektashis are Muslims. But Sufis are often thought of as heretics and non-Muslim infidels by reactionary Sunnis.

“Look how they are manipulating people,” he said. “They want to convert the tekke into a woman’s madrassa. They want to move their administration here.”

“They are influenced by Arabs?” I said. It wasn’t really a question.

“Yes,” he said. “They are. And our government is weak. Arabs can manipulate us because our government is neglectful.”

We keep the saint graves. The Muslims know this, they are trying to provoke us and claim that we have done it to ourselves. But no, really they did it. Plus, I see these Wahhabis around. Usually at night the Wahhabis are coming, sometimes in trousers, sometimes in their clothes, sometimes with the things on their heads and with beards.”

The next building over in the compound had been forcibly converted into a Sunni mosque. Speakers for the muezzin’s call to prayer were bolted to the side of the chimney. During our interview the call to prayer screeched from above. “Allahu Akbar…” the muezzin called. My Bektashi Sufi hosts groaned.

Minaret%20Teqe%20Macedonia.jpg

A chimney forcibly converted into a minarat by radical Sunnis

“Ugh,” Mahmudi said and made a face. “You see what we have to listen to five times a day? This is supposed to be a quiet place for meditation.”

Covered%20Woman%20Inside%20Teqe%20Macedonia.jpg

When Mahmudi escorted me back to my car, a woman entered the tekke wearing a tent-like abaya.

“Look at that,” he said. “We never had that. Take a picture, take a picture.”

I took several pictures. I don’t think she saw me. I’ve seen many women dressed like that in the Arab world – especially in ferociously reactionary cities in Iraq like Fallujah – but never anywhere else in the Balkans.

“Please publish these pictues,” he said. “Show the world what is happening here.”

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I don't think this Bektashis are representative of all Bektashis, but in anycase, these people don't sound like Shi'i.

Apart from the connection to Ali (as), I can't see much of what they have stated in this article to have anything to do with Shi'ism.

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Now SHIA are making takfir on Shia. Do the wahhabis offer money for such services or are we eating our own for free nowadays. AUZHUBILLAH YA FATIMA is crying over this wallAHHI.

What is "Shi'i" about these guys? Have you read the definition of Shi'i according to the Prophet's HouseHold? I recommend "Sifat al-Shi'a" by Sheikh Saduq. Here's some excerpts:

(1) The Shia are the people of piety and diligence

Mohammed bin Musa bin al-Mutawakkil, Allah have mercy upon him, narrated to me from Mohammed bin Yahya al-Attar al-Kufi from Musa bin Imran an-Nakh’i from his uncle al-Hussein bin Yazid an-Nawfali from Ali bin Salem from his father from Abu Bassir that Imam as-Sadiq (a) said:

Our Shia are the people of piety and diligence, loyalty and honesty, and asceticism and worship.

They perform fifty-one rak’as in a single day and night.

They pass their nights with worship and their days with fasting.

They defray the zakat from their wealth, perform the hajj, and refrain from committing any forbidden thing.

/.../

Our Shia are those who offer the prayers, defray the zakat, perform the hajj to the Holy House of Allah, fast during the month of Ramadan, declare their loyalty to the Prophet’s household, and declare their disavowal of the enemies of the Prophet’s household."

http://shiaonline.wordpress.com/2007/04/02...es-of-the-shia/

Now, going by the article, they have already gone against the definition of Shi'i as given by the Prophet's HouseHold.

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Every Shia that isn't in RUKUR 51 times a day, you consider outside our DIN?

I guess I am not Shia enough. My heart is too heavy with love of the HOUSEHOLD to frittle about in so many rituals.

"I" don't consider, I gave you the words of the Infallibles.

"Shia" is a very strong term and the true meaning of it is a person that does much more than the commonfolk. The Infallibles specifically stated that those who don't uphold these things, should refer to themselves as the Lovers of the Prophet's HouseHold, and I believe most of us, atleast me, would fall into that category rather than the Shi'i category.

But even that category has certain requirements, and those include atleast trying to follow what Shi'ism teaches. The people in the article are not even attempting to follow that.

If you make things up by yourself and then claim that "your heart has too much love for these rituals", it means you are not loving the Prophet's HouseHold but your own perception of them.

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^^

Yes, I shudder to call myself shia ithna ashari as thats a deep and profound terminology. May Allah (s.w.t) grant us - the muhibb-e-Ahlulbayt, the tawfiq to become deserving of the title SHIA!

My heart is too heavy with love of the HOUSEHOLD to frittle about in so many rituals.

Its quite sad if you regard namaz as a mere ritual bro... namaz is the meraj of a momin.

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Sufi mysticism is not an excuse to abandon required ritual practice. Obedience to the divine law is the first necessary step to the more mystical aspects; it is a precondition that builds discipline needed for the journey. Shariah precedes tariqah on any sufi path.

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You think so because Shaytan is pleased when he sees people go through useless rituals (work with no pay). When you get Rahmat from one of the 14 in a dream then you will see the light, inshallah.

There have been days when I don't pray, then make it up in my dreams. And wallahi my back is sore when I wakeup.

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You think so because Shaytan is pleased when he sees people go through useless rituals (work with no pay). When you get Rahmat from one of the 14 in a dream then you will see the light, inshallah.

There have been days when I don't pray, then make it up in my dreams. And wallahi my back is sore when I wakeup.

The 14 infallibles taught those "useless rituals." Imam Ali (as) and Imam Hussein (as) both received the blows that killed them while in the midst of this "useless ritual."

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The 14 infallibles taught those "useless rituals." Imam Ali (as) and Imam Hussein (as) both received the blows that killed them while in the midst of this "useless ritual."

As Salam Alaykum:

I am a balkan shia muslim and I am embarresed by those who say that they do not have to pray etc. . . I am glad to see Islamic sentiment is strong in Macedonia amongst Albanians. I respect the Bektashi and sufis since they, Shia in belief, spread Islam in the Balkans until the Sunnis took power because of the Ottoman policy. In that article one has just seen two extremes. True shia-sufis do not neglect the "rituals" of Islam. Salat is a blessing and it is what Rasulullah (Salli Allahu alayhi wa Alihi wa salam) brought us from the Night Journey. I canot believe that they were complaining that an Egyptian woman was teaching Arabic! What they should fear is the complete amoral society developing in these regions thanks to a certain country's amoral culture.

It was embarrasing to read that article. Calling the hijab "oppressive clothing!" Everyone is walking around half naked, but that is okay?

ws

Every Shia that isn't in RUKUR 51 times a day, you consider outside our DIN?

I guess I am not Shia enough. My heart is too heavy with love of the HOUSEHOLD to frittle about in so many rituals.

As Salam Alaykum:

Think about what you just said. You intimate that you do not have to do "rituals" that the Aimmah (Alayhim as salam) gave their lives to keep alive. ONe of Imam Hussain's (alayhi as salam) last remarks were that he felt sad that he would no longer be able to pray Salat ul Layl.

ws

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From my understanding, the Bektashi order has a connection with Alevism; both groups venerate the same saint and have very liberal tendencies. They are not Shi'a - neither of them - even though they may classify as such from a historical perspective. Even though these groups maintain Shi'a beliefs, they are in no way Shi'a. Shi'a refers to followers of the Ithna'Ashari school of thought, nothing else. So, historically we may say that the Ismailis (which the man in the article claimed to be related to) are Shi'a, but in reality they are an offshoot, and so are Bektashi Sufis. The Ismailis believe in reincarnation and maintain a notion of pantheism. If you are influenced by this than you are not under the umbrella of Islam - your religion would be an offshoot that blends Muslim elements.

Most Sufi orders practice one of the four Sunni madhabs, but Sunnis don't classify them as Sunni because they integrate Sufi elements, which are rejected by Sunnism (and Shi'ism, for that matter).

And quite honestly, how dare you claim to be a follower of Ahlul Bayt when you refer to their practices as "useless rituals"? These useless rituals are mandatory for Muslims - for any Muslim that follows the Qur'an and maintains a Sunnah of the prophet. We as Muslims must obey the prophet. You don't have to, but stop insisting that you are Shi'a. You are Shi'a in the historical sense, maybe, in that your group was an offshoot of those associated with the Party of Ali, but you have very little in common with the Ithna'Ashari school of thought, which is the only thing we consider to be Shi'a (and by Shi'a, I mean fully Shi'a, both religious and historical). Ismailis were the first to deviate from the Shi'is - they took Shi'a Islam - and Islam in general - and went their own way with it, just like deviant groups from the mainstream.

Go ahead and follow your religion, but first you should learn about what a Shi'a Muslim is before making such degrading remarks.

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I have no idea who these people are who you call Shi'a, but Shi'a pray 5 times a day, have hijab and don't drink alcohol. (to just mention a few things) These fools sound exactly like the fools described on wahhabi websites as being us. Shame on these people!

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You think so because Shaytan is pleased when he sees people go through useless rituals (work with no pay).

This kind of talk on a Shi'a Islamic forum should be cause for immediate concern on part of the moderators. I see no reason why there should be even a "discussion" on such a topic. I'd recommend closing this thread, with a warning to this new guy/troll.

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From my understanding, the Bektashi order has a connection with Alevism; both groups venerate the same saint and have very liberal tendencies. They are not Shi'a - neither of them - even though they may classify as such from a historical perspective. Even though these groups maintain Shi'a beliefs, they are in no way Shi'a. Shi'a refers to followers of the Ithna'Ashari school of thought, nothing else. So, historically we may say that the Ismailis (which the man in the article claimed to be related to) are Shi'a, but in reality they are an offshoot, and so are Bektashi Sufis. The Ismailis believe in reincarnation and maintain a notion of pantheism. If you are influenced by this than you are not under the umbrella of Islam - your religion would be an offshoot that blends Muslim elements.

Most Sufi orders practice one of the four Sunni madhabs, but Sunnis don't classify them as Sunni because they integrate Sufi elements, which are rejected by Sunnism (and Shi'ism, for that matter).

And quite honestly, how dare you claim to be a follower of Ahlul Bayt when you refer to their practices as "useless rituals"? These useless rituals are mandatory for Muslims - for any Muslim that follows the Qur'an and maintains a Sunnah of the prophet. We as Muslims must obey the prophet. You don't have to, but stop insisting that you are Shi'a. You are Shi'a in the historical sense, maybe, in that your group was an offshoot of those associated with the Party of Ali, but you have very little in common with the Ithna'Ashari school of thought, which is the only thing we consider to be Shi'a (and by Shi'a, I mean fully Shi'a, both religious and historical). Ismailis were the first to deviate from the Shi'is - they took Shi'a Islam - and Islam in general - and went their own way with it, just like deviant groups from the mainstream.

Go ahead and follow your religion, but first you should learn about what a Shi'a Muslim is before making such degrading remarks.

As Salam Alaykum:

People who practice tassawuf are muslim. Many sunnis do not classify the shia as muslims. So to claim a group is not muslim is going to the extreme. We must not be quick to say such and such is not a muslim.

ws

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From my understanding, the Bektashi order has a connection with Alevism; both groups venerate the same saint and have very liberal tendencies. They are not Shi'a - neither of them - even though they may classify as such from a historical perspective. Even though these groups maintain Shi'a beliefs, they are in no way Shi'a. Shi'a refers to followers of the Ithna'Ashari school of thought, nothing else. So, historically we may say that the Ismailis (which the man in the article claimed to be related to) are Shi'a, but in reality they are an offshoot, and so are Bektashi Sufis. The Ismailis believe in reincarnation and maintain a notion of pantheism. If you are influenced by this than you are not under the umbrella of Islam - your religion would be an offshoot that blends Muslim elements.

Most Sufi orders practice one of the four Sunni madhabs, but Sunnis don't classify them as Sunni because they integrate Sufi elements, which are rejected by Sunnism (and Shi'ism, for that matter).

And quite honestly, how dare you claim to be a follower of Ahlul Bayt when you refer to their practices as "useless rituals"? These useless rituals are mandatory for Muslims - for any Muslim that follows the Qur'an and maintains a Sunnah of the prophet. We as Muslims must obey the prophet. You don't have to, but stop insisting that you are Shi'a. You are Shi'a in the historical sense, maybe, in that your group was an offshoot of those associated with the Party of Ali, but you have very little in common with the Ithna'Ashari school of thought, which is the only thing we consider to be Shi'a (and by Shi'a, I mean fully Shi'a, both religious and historical). Ismailis were the first to deviate from the Shi'is - they took Shi'a Islam - and Islam in general - and went their own way with it, just like deviant groups from the mainstream.

Go ahead and follow your religion, but first you should learn about what a Shi'a Muslim is before making such degrading remarks.

As Salam Alaykum:

Ismailis are an older group of Shia, historically speaking, than we ithna asherah shia. Bektashis believe in the 12 Aimmah (as) so I do not see how they cannot be classified as shia , though indeed they are an offshoot. How many shia do you know that do not practice Islam the way it should be? Are they now not "real" shia?

ws

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Let me qualify my statement that the Ismailis are historically attested to before we twelvers.

1) they stop at Ismail when they broke off and we know from historical records they were more numerous than twelver shia until the tewlth century.

2)There were no twelvers at the time becaue all 12 Aimmah (as) had not arrived yet.

3)Ghulwu tendencies were rife in the shia communities and we still have them. Tanasukh (reincarnation) and Tashbih were also present. In fact many narrators of shia hadith adhered to these beliefs but they still make it into al-kafi.

ws

let me try to contact the Bektashi community and ask them where they stand. If I get a reply I will share it with you all.

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I agree it should be no ones business what people believe wether baktashi or ahmadi or bahai or athiest its non of our business. However i do resent them calling themselves shia or muslims cause they break the pillars of ilsam. A person who doesnt follow koran or pray the 5 prayers or fast or do the ligrimage drinks doesnt follow any dress codes ets etc is preety much in another religion. Howeve we should be tolerent to all people let Allah decide

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Let me qualify my statement that the Ismailis are historically attested to before we twelvers.

This isn't correct though. There is no clear record of Ismai`ilis until later on. Apparently the Abbasids took a census of Madina (I think) and nothing like Ismai`ilis show up. Basically, they appear to show up out of nowhere when the one they call `Ubaydullah al-Mahdi rose up in North Africa. My suspicion (and I stand to be corrected) has been that they were the descendants (in the sectarian sense) of the earlier heretical Khattabiyya who after the death of their leader and followers, went underground for a while. Now that said, there were other splinter groups that whose existence is attested to, such as the earlier Kaysaniyya (who believed Muhammad b. al-Hanafiyya was the Mahdi), the Waqifiyya (who believed that Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as) hadn't died but was in ghayba and was the Qa'im), the Jarudiyya Zaydis (early Zaydi sect, followers of Abu 'l-Jarud who had previously been a follower of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) before he went Zaydi), the Fathiyya (who believed that the Imam after Imam Sadiq (as) was `Abdullah b. Ja`far), and others.

What's important to realize though is that these were splinter groups. Throughout all this there existed the main line of Imamis, who believed in an accepted the line of Imams we believe in today. Correct, they might not have been called "twelvers" by this point, but still whether called Imamis or the Qat`iyya, it's still the main line that we adhere to today. Out of the above deviant groups, most of their followers were from people outside the circles of the Imams' closest disciples. Though I will admit the Waqifiyya did seem to attract a number of people including some complanions of the Imams, a number of whom do show up as narrators of hadiths in our books. They're long gone though, either dying out, or converting back to the main line. The Fathiyya also show up, though as `Abdullah died shortly after his father, and without progeny, they didn't last much (apparently the ones that did hang on said that Imam Kadhim (as) was the Imam after `Abdullah, which doesn't really make sense). In terms of the Jarudiyya, a number of narrations from Abu 'l-Jarud show up purporting to be hadiths from Imam al-Baqir (as) (for instance in the Tafsir al-Qummi (thought to have been put there by a later hand)).

1) they stop at Ismail when they broke off and we know from historical records they were more numerous than twelver shia until the tewlth century.

With the rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt, with their extensive network of missionaries, they certainly had a prominent face in the Muslim world, however, I don't actually know about the numbers. It seems the Fatimid rulers never really won the hearts of the masses of their subjects much.

2)There were no twelvers at the time becaue all 12 Aimmah (as) had not arrived yet.

See above. It is important to note though that while perhaps the knowledge of their going to be only twelve Imams was not universally known amongst the Shi`a, still there is evidence to attest to it prior to the ghayba. Even the belief in the Qa'im going into ghayba (moreover, two ghaybas, one short one long) is also attested to prior to its occurance.

3)Ghulwu tendencies were rife in the shia communities and we still have them. Tanasukh (reincarnation) and Tashbih were also present. In fact many narrators of shia hadith adhered to these beliefs but they still make it into al-kafi.

Sadly.

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As Salam Alaykum:

Ismailis are an older group of Shia, historically speaking, than we ithna asherah shia. Bektashis believe in the 12 Aimmah (as) so I do not see how they cannot be classified as shia , though indeed they are an offshoot. How many shia do you know that do not practice Islam the way it should be? Are they now not "real" shia?

ws

Yes, I know. I know that Ismailis don't accept 12 Imams but instead accept 7. However, Ismaili beliefs are, in some important ways, intertwined with Hinduism. Most Ismailis believe in reincarnation, which is a concept rejected in the Qur'an. Nowhere in Islam do you encounter the notion of reincarnation, but most Ismailis believe in it. They also believe in pantheism with respect to God, something that is again un-Islamic.

So Ismailis have many differences with Shi'a Islam, which is equivalent to the Ithna'Ashari school of thought. When we say Shi'a, we are referring to the Ja'fari school of thought. If you want to discuss historical Shi'ism or even some aspect of religious Shi'ism, you might be able to extend it to the Ismaili group, even though their beliefs are defined by concepts contrary to Islam.

Anyway, today when we use the word Shi'a - whether it is our scholars or otherwise - we are generally referring to the Ithna'Ashari school of thought. Our difference with the Ismailis isn't simply over the number of imams or particular differences between particular madhabs. Ismailis tend to go down a different path with respect to religion. And with all the pathetic attacks hurled at us, I really don't want to be associated with pantheism and reincarnation.

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if you were surrounded by wahhabi (Allah forbid) maybe you'd see America in a different (candle) light. How many Husseiniya you think are bombed in AMERICA???

When abu sufyan [before calling himself a muslim] came to Mawla Ali (as) and said "O Ali, we all know that you are the successor of the prophet so lets topple the present caliph together, my armies are at your service". Mawla Ali (as) smiled and said "Do you think Ali needs help from a kafir?"

How can one claim to love Mawla 'Ali when he has no respect for his idiologies?

If you want to stay out of oppression, then leave shia faith; because as long as you are a shia you will be oppressed. We have been oppresed for centuries and we never seek help from anyone other than our shepherd, Imam al Mahdi (ajf) [which means we seek help from none other than Allah]

Allahu waliyyu allatheena amanoo yukhrijuhum mina alththulumati ila nnoor waallatheena kafaroo awliyaohumu alttaghoot yukhrijoonahum mina nnoor ila alththulumati olaika ashabu alnnar hum feeha khalidoon

2:257 Allah is the wali of momineen, taking them out of deep darkness into the light - whereas near unto those who are bent on denying the truth are the powers of evil that take them out of the light into darkness deep: it is they who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.

Edited by zuhair_naqvi

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if you were surrounded by wahhabi (Allah forbid) maybe you'd see America in a different (candle) light. How many Husseiniya you think are bombed in AMERICA???

You're talking of husseiniya? American soldiers fired rockets at the Rawza of Imam Ali (as) in Najaf which destroyed the was of Imam's Haram, they are no different than sunnis/wahabis. And your saints love such pigs.

Edited by zuhair_naqvi

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As Salam Alaykum:

Ismailis are an older group of Shia, historically speaking, than we ithna asherah shia. Bektashis believe in the 12 Aimmah (as) so I do not see how they cannot be classified as shia , though indeed they are an offshoot. How many shia do you know that do not practice Islam the way it should be? Are they now not "real" shia?

ws

1. It does not matter if you believe in 12 Imams, if you do not believe in main Islamic principles (Qura'n and Prophet/Imams) teachings!

2. "Shias who are not practicing Islam the way it should be" is not equal to "Shias who deny the Islamic practices all together"

For example:

I. A Shia who drinks alcohol is still considered a Shia Muslim; committing sinful acts.

II. A Shia who drinks alcohol and believes that, "nothing is wrong with drinking alcohol by Islamic law" is indeed going against Ketabullah or Quranic teachings. So, in such a manner the one in the second category is considered out of the fold of Islam by denying the main Islamic principles and making their own judgments to "define Islamic Shari'a".

Bektashis or Allawits, who says, "prayers are not obligated, drinking alcohol is fine, having sex without Nekah is fine, not having Hijjab is not considered a sin, if you fast or if you don't is up to you and no obligation is involved" I mean such beliefs are clearly opposing Islam's main body and rules & regulations.

And indeed such people fall in the same category of Yazeed the son of Muhawiya and his time and kingdom, who said and did things anti-Shari'a and claimed they were totally correct and by Shari'a.

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As Salam Alaykum:

Ismailis are an older group of Shia, historically speaking, than we ithna asherah shia. Bektashis believe in the 12 Aimmah (as) so I do not see how they cannot be classified as shia , though indeed they are an offshoot. How many shia do you know that do not practice Islam the way it should be? Are they now not "real" shia?

ws

There are hindu's who have memorized the whole Qor'aan and believe in the family of the prophet (s), do not make ignorant statements.

This topic should be locked and a warning should be given the the topic starter for putting is deviant beliefs on this website. Such unislamic beliefs should not be tolerated by anyone on a website claiming to be islamic.

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This topic should be locked and a warning should be given the the topic starter for putting is deviant beliefs on this website.

A warning should be issued to you for being a takfiri and a fitnah monger.

Excellent thread bro HassanHassanHassan. Sometimes we need a distiller like these to show who are the open-minded followers of Imam Mahdi and who are takfiris whose agenda is to be the loudspeaker of the wahhabis.

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When abu sufyan [before calling himself a muslim] came to Mawla Ali as.gif and said "O Ali, we all know that you are the successor of the prophet so lets topple the present caliph together, my armies are at your service". Mawla Ali as.gif smiled and said "Do you think Ali needs help from a kafir?"

And Imam Ali rejected and was martyred by khwarij, who thought they were only muslims around, and proclaimed kufr on others.

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1. It does not matter if you believe in 12 Imams, if you do not believe in main Islamic principles (Qura'n and Prophet/Imams) teachings!

2. "Shias who are not practicing Islam the way it should be" is not equal to "Shias who deny the Islamic practices all together"

pleez sir keep your khwarij beliefs to yourself.

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Our Shia are the people of piety and diligence, loyalty and honesty, and asceticism and worship.

They perform fifty-one rak’as in a single day and night.

They pass their nights with worship and their days with fasting.

They defray the zakat from their wealth, perform the hajj, and refrain from committing any forbidden thing.

/.../

Our Shia are those who offer the prayers, defray the zakat, perform the hajj to the Holy House of Allah, fast during the month of Ramadan, declare their loyalty to the Prophet’s household, and declare their disavowal of the enemies of the Prophet’s household."

Wahhabis do that more than your shias would ever.

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1) That Ismailis predate Twelvers is an inaccurate statement (cf. Br. macisaac's post).

2) Ismailis do not believe in seven Imams. They believe in our Imams up to the Sixth, after which they claim Ismail b. Jafar - being the eldest son - became the Imam. This is despite the fact that Ismail passed away during the lifetime of the Sixth Imam, and that his body was marched through Medina (the Ismailis claim this was a sham funeral to take away attention from the Sunni rulers) at his funeral.

They divided into numerous branches, and the two main ones surviving today are the Nizaris (Aga Khani group who were settled mainly in Persia and Shaam), and the Mustaali (who are divided into several branches). The Nizaris believe in 49 Imams (and counting), with the 49th residing in France.

The Dawoodi Mustaali (also called Dawoodi Bohras) believe the 21st Imam went into Occultation and since then follow "Dai's" who are representatives of the Imam. They have had 52 Da'is, with the 52nd one (Sayyidina Burhan al-Din) residing in India at the moment.

The Suleimani Bohras are mainly concentrated in Yemen and Najran (Southern Occupied Arabia), and are also on their 52nd Da'i.

The Nizaris and Dawoodi Bohras (as well as most other offshoots) are mainly from the Indian subcontinent, whereas the Suleimani Bohras are mainly arabs.

3) The druze originated in Ismailism, but have developed into a separate religion and have little in common with Ismailis today.

Edited by waiting

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This isn't correct though. There is no clear record of Ismai`ilis until later on. Apparently the Abbasids took a census of Madina (I think) and nothing like Ismai`ilis show up. Basically, they appear to show up out of nowhere when the one they call `Ubaydullah al-Mahdi rose up in North Africa. My suspicion (and I stand to be corrected) has been that they were the descendants (in the sectarian sense) of the earlier heretical Khattabiyya who after the death of their leader and followers, went underground for a while. Now that said, there were other splinter groups that whose existence is attested to, such as the earlier Kaysaniyya (who believed Muhammad b. al-Hanafiyya was the Mahdi), the Waqifiyya (who believed that Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as) hadn't died but was in ghayba and was the Qa'im), the Jarudiyya Zaydis (early Zaydi sect, followers of Abu 'l-Jarud who had previously been a follower of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) before he went Zaydi), the Fathiyya (who believed that the Imam after Imam Sadiq (as) was `Abdullah b. Ja`far), and others.

What's important to realize though is that these were splinter groups. Throughout all this there existed the main line of Imamis, who believed in an accepted the line of Imams we believe in today. Correct, they might not have been called "twelvers" by this point, but still whether called Imamis or the Qat`iyya, it's still the main line that we adhere to today. Out of the above deviant groups, most of their followers were from people outside the circles of the Imams' closest disciples. Though I will admit the Waqifiyya did seem to attract a number of people including some complanions of the Imams, a number of whom do show up as narrators of hadiths in our books. They're long gone though, either dying out, or converting back to the main line. The Fathiyya also show up, though as `Abdullah died shortly after his father, and without progeny, they didn't last much (apparently the ones that did hang on said that Imam Kadhim (as) was the Imam after `Abdullah, which doesn't really make sense). In terms of the Jarudiyya, a number of narrations from Abu 'l-Jarud show up purporting to be hadiths from Imam al-Baqir (as) (for instance in the Tafsir al-Qummi (thought to have been put there by a later hand)).

With the rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt, with their extensive network of missionaries, they certainly had a prominent face in the Muslim world, however, I don't actually know about the numbers. It seems the Fatimid rulers never really won the hearts of the masses of their subjects much.

See above. It is important to note though that while perhaps the knowledge of their going to be only twelve Imams was not universally known amongst the Shi`a, still there is evidence to attest to it prior to the ghayba. Even the belief in the Qa'im going into ghayba (moreover, two ghaybas, one short one long) is also attested to prior to its occurance.

Sadly.

As Salam Alaykum:

Thank you brother.

The Ismailis did predate what would become known as the Tewlver Shia. I wil bring you sources later. There were ahadith claiming 12 but there were also others claiming 6 or 7. The Qatiyah were very small in number and after the greater occultation of Imam Mahdi (as) they splintered even more.

As for the concept of Ghayba that is indeed very old and even goes back to Muhammad ibn Hanafiyah to whom it was first applied to. I will get you sources.

Edited by sarajlici

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