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In the Name of God بسم الله

Jews In Islam

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Salam

I need assistance to finding good information on the disobedience and mischief of the Jews against God, as I'm trying to convince a friend of mine who keeps believing that Israel is their right because of what the Quran says. Please help, anyone.

I searched all over al-islam.org specifically to no avail at all.

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Salam

I need assistance to finding good information on the disobedience and mischief of the Jews against God, as I'm trying to convince a friend of mine who keeps believing that Israel is their right because of what the Quran says. Please help, anyone.

I searched all over al-islam.org specifically to no avail at all.

There's no ayah which says that G-d took back Eretz Yisrael from the Jews. There is, however, a clear verse which says G-d gave it to us.

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17:4 And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

17:5 When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

17:6 Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

17:7 If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

17:8 It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

17:9 Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

17:10 And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty Grievous (indeed).

This talks about the first and second destruction of the temple, but it doesn't seem to me to specifically say who has a right to own the land. (I say this as I sit comfortably upon land which was usurped from the Monacan tribe by European settlers a couple hundred years ago.) I've never taken the Quran to be a deed book - it's kind of more a religious book.

Don't reply -- I'm sure you'll come up with some way to twist that around. You wouldn't be a Islamist if you couldn't find a way to justify killing people.

I'm surprised and disappointed to hear a comment like this from you after you've been participating on this forum so long.

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As Salam Alaykum:

The Quran does mention the misdeeds of people within the Bani Israil; yet, it does so for the Arabs and humanity in general. Since we are discussing over what the Quran says about whether the Jews were barred from the land is indeed disputable. Furthermore, contemporary non-Islamic sources cite the rise of Islam and the takeover of Palestine as a joint venture of Arabs and Jews who wanted to win the middle east for the House of Abraham (as).

I am tired of hearing that the Jews are the only ones described of in the Quran as "mischevous" at times: we should also read about what Allah said concerning the Arabs (especially the beduwi) and people in general.

For we shia, please read Dua Simat and you will read some interesting ideas about Jews and the holy land. I know that right now Jews and Muslims are very much at each others throats and that the suffering of the Palestinians is not being addressed; but, Rasululah (sali Allahu alayhi was alihi wa salam) did make a covenant with the Jews to be an "ummatan wahidatan" and most tribes kept this covenant with the exception of three power hungry tribes who sought the help of the Quraysh (talk about mischief mongers). In the end Alah Aza wa Jala gave victory over all four, alhamdulillah.

Please read dua simat

ws

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(salam)

Can we please abstain from the comments like the one above this post? For both sides.

As for the Qur'an, as far as I'm aware it does not say the land itself has been taken away from the Jews, but nor does it say that only the Jews are entitled to it. The holy lands (Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem) belongs to God Almighty, and not the Muslims, Jews, Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christians, etc.

Edited by Qa'im
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(salam)

Even if she was wrong about everything, Allah says:

(bismillah)

The (faithful) slaves of the Compassionate are they who walk upon the earth modestly, and when the foolish ones address them answer: Peace (25:63)

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Want me to get you a cookie!

Please do not take it as an offence. But I believe it is not good to make fun of anyone. If you have arguments, please present them in a polite, objective manner.

"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and kindly exhortation and dispute with them in the kindest manner". The Quran [16:125]

Truth hurts doesn't it sweetheart!

I don't think a confrontational style is recommended in Islamic ethics.

"And do not dispute with the People of the Book except in the most kindly manner". The Quran [29:46]

that's when the real you emerges.

Personal attacks will not help win the debate. Just present your arguments objectively.

Imam Ali said

"Treat people in a manner that as long as you live, they long for your company. And when you die, they weep for you".

And by using the word 'people', our Imam meant not only Muslims, but also non-Muslims. It is good to try and free our disputes from personal recriminations.

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The wild thing about it is that I didn't even criticize her religion; just corrected her erroneous claim that the Qu'ran gives the Jews some sort of eternal unconditional title deed to the land of Israel/Palestine.

Then you should learn to read the Qur'an, too.

Do Muslims have an eternal and unconditional title deed to Mecca? Yes? No? Why is it that I'm willing to say "Yes" to that, and you're not willing to say "Yes" to the Qur'anic statement that G-d gave us that land?

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Three Strong Oaths

The true Jewish position on Zionism and the state called Israel is found in the Scriptures in the Talmud and in the oral traditions transmitted to us by our parents and teachers.

At the outset of the Jews' exile to Babylonia, the Prophet Jeremiah, in chapter 29 of his book proclaimed G-d's message to all the exiled�Verse seven reads, "Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray for it to the Almighty, for through its welfare will you have welfare." This has been a cornerstone of Jewish "foreign policy" how to behave in the lands of the nations throughout our ensuing exiles till this very day.

There Jeremiah adds in the name of G-d (verses 8 and 9), "Do not let your false prophets among you and your sorcerers seduce you, do not head your dreamers which you cause them to dream. For they speak falsely to you in My name. I did not send them." This too has applied to all the would-be misleaders of Jewry whether they presented themselves as prophets or as sorcerers or as dreamers of national aspirations.

King Solomon in Song of Songs thrice adjured the "daughters of Jerusalem" not to arouse or bestir the love until it is ready." The Talmud explains That we have been foresworn, by three strong oaths, not to ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force, not to rebel against the governments of countries in which we live, and not by our sins, to prolong the coming of moshiach; as is written in Tractate Kesubos 111a .

Throughout the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, throughout the 200 years of the Hellenic exile and throughout the 1917 since the destruction of G-d's Holy House, we have steadfastly maintained our loyalty to G-d and have not transgressed His oaths. And we have prayed for the welfare of the cities and the countries of our host nations that did not oppress us, and in their welfare we indeed always found ours.

Whoever violates Jeremiah's principles or Solomon's oaths immediately imperils the welfare of Jews locally and elsewhere in the world.

Maimonides, Iggeres Teiman � Letter to Yemen

[Maimonides wrote this Letter to the Jewish Community of Yemen almost 1,000 years ago]

And as King Solomon knew with divine inspiration that the Jewish People would face the consequences of this and that suffering would come upon them, and warned the Jewish People not to do this (i.e. violate the Three Oaths), and in a metaphorical way made them swear not to commit these acts, as it is written in Song of Songs, 3,5: I made you swear Daughters of Jerusalem by the deer and gazelles of the field should you arouse or awaken love until it is so desired.

Therefore, you, dear brethren, must accept the Oath and do not attempt to arouse the love until the proper time when the Alm-ghty shall remember us and you with his trait of mercy to gather his portion from Exile to behold his glory at his holy Temple and redeem us from the Valley of the shadow of Death where he has placed us, thereby removing the darkness from our eyes and the fog from our hearts. He will then fulfill in our days and in yours the verse from Isaiah 9:1 The nation wandering in darkness shall see a great Light, and a Light shall shine on those residing in the land of the shadow of death. At that time G-d shall darken the eyes of all those who rise up against us, and fulfill the verse from Isaiah 9:2 Verily darkness shall cover the land and fog shall cover nations, but the light of G-d shall shine upon you, and you shall display his honor.

The Maharal of Prague (Rabbi Betzalel Lowy who lived in the 17th century) explained that the prohibition of violating the Three Oaths applies even if the other nations force the Jewish People to do so.

In addition, he wrote in his book Netzach Yisroel (Chapter 24) that these Oaths may not be modified so as to affect the decree of Exile, and he expanded on the description in the Midrashic text on Song of Songs 2:18.

�Even if the nations wanted to kill the Jews with terrible torture, the Jews are forbidden to change the applicability of the Oaths. This is relevant to every one of these oaths and must be understood.� Therefore, not only is it forbidden to leave the Exile even with the permission of the nations, but even if they force the Jewish People to do so under pain of death, it is forbidden to violate these Oaths in the same way it is required to give up one�s life rather than accept another religion.

Even during the forced conversions under the kingdom of Portugal in the late 15th century it was forbidden to violate the Oath.

Rabbi Avraham Galanti, who other rabbis described as outstanding in his level of holiness, and who was a student of the great kabbalist Rabbi Moshe Cordovero in the 16th century, explained aspects of the Three Oaths in his book Zechus Avos [Merit of the Patriarchs] where he recounts how some Jews in Portugal wanted to revolt against the kingdom rather than submit to forced conversion. A rabbi quoted the verses from Song of Songs to the people who wanted to revolt, and pointed to the Talmudic tractate Ketuboth p. 111 which states that G-d made the Jewish People take three Oaths � one was that they should not rebel against G-d by rebelling against the nations. Thereafter the Jews submitted to death rather than forced conversion. Although the description in Ketuboth does not say that the Oaths involve directly rebelling against G-d, it is clear that the very violation of these Oaths is rebellion against G-d himself.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/3strongoaths.cfm

Edited by koroigetsuga
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(salam)

I've just noticed that the thread's gotten completely off topic. To answer the question, here are some verses from the Noble Qur'an. Note, these are solely about their disobedience to God, and does not represent the full/complete Qur'anic view on Jews and Judaism:

(bismillah)

"And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper." (2:120)

"Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few." (4:46)

"Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way," (4:160)

"The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins ? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying." (5:18)

"And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind; and establish worship and pay the poor-due. Then, after that, ye slid back, save a few of you, being averse." (2:83)

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There's no ayah which says that G-d took back Eretz Yisrael from the Jews. There is, however, a clear verse which says G-d gave it to us.

For ease of discussion, could you please post this verse or these verses?

I'm in the process of cleaning up this thread. Please keep replies on-topic and avoid personal attacks, so I don't have to close the discussion. Thanks.

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For ease of discussion, could you please post this verse or these verses?

I'll see if I can find it. I want to say it's where G-d discusses the incident with the spys and us finally getting to enter Eretz Yisrael.

Here's a different take on the same. This isn't about the episode with the spies, but it does mention G-d drowning Pharaoh and his army, so it's definitely a good read --

017.101 To Moses We did give Nine Clear Sings (sic): As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

017.102 Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"

017.103 So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.

017.104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

Edited by Ariella
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Then you should learn to read the Qur'an, too.

Do Muslims have an eternal and unconditional title deed to Mecca? Yes? No? Why is it that I'm willing to say "Yes" to that, and you're not willing to say "Yes" to the Qur'anic statement that G-d gave us that land?

Well, let's see. First of all because the Qu'ran doesn't say Jews have exclusive, eternal, unconditional rights to that land. Second, because the Bible doesn't say so either; even in the Bible there was a conditional aspect to it. Third because the Bible records your ancestors violating those conditions, and being thrown out, during the Babylonian exile in what is understood in mainstream Judaism as having been a divine punishment. Fourth, because mainstream Judaism accepts that the second exile is a Divine punishment for violation of conditions of residence. Fifth, because the Qu'ran echoes this Jewish doctrine, again, with reference to 17:4-8.

Deuteronomy, I believe Deuteronomy 18, 18:24 if I remember correctly - makes it clear that any rights to own that land were part of a conditional lease. Your ancestors violated the terms of the lease (piety and kindness to their fellow men) and were evicted. End of story. This is your doctrine, for goodness' sake.

Does this mean no Jews can live in the land? No. Even in the first exile, some remained in the land. Is it possible for Jews, through political machinations and military muscle, to could take the land back and end their exile by force? Yes, clearly this has happened. But does that mean that Jews have any religious justification to consider the secular state of Israel a third kingdom blessed by God? No, not in the least.

I'll see if I can find it. I want to say it's where G-d discusses the incident with the spys and us finally getting to enter Eretz Yisrael.

...

017.104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

Seems to me this last line is another reference to the eviction carried out by God's sheriff at the time, the Romans.

Sorry! Lease cancelled due to failure to pay rent; tenants evicted by Divine commandment.

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Well, let's see. First of all because the Qu'ran doesn't say Jews have exclusive, eternal, unconditional rights to that land. Second, because the Bible doesn't say so either; even in the Bible there was a conditional aspect to it. Third because the Bible records your ancestors violating those conditions, and being thrown out, during the Babylonian exile in what is understood in mainstream Judaism as having been a divine punishment. Fourth, because mainstream Judaism accepts that the second exile is a Divine punishment for violation of conditions of residence. Fifth, because the Qu'ran echoes this Jewish doctrine, again, with reference to 17:4-8.

Not to mention that she has failed to reply (no surprise there; I'm used to it by now) to my post#10 which does a good job on debunking any so-called Jewish right to Judea. What does it matter to a Jew what the Quran says; the only thing that should matter is what Judaism says, which is that God forbade Jews from taking that land back until the messiah comes.

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Well, let's see. First of all because the Qu'ran doesn't say Jews have exclusive, eternal, unconditional rights to that land.

I forget the ayah, but the Qur'an states that G-d doesn't break promises unless He gives a better one.

And who the hell made you G-d that you can pronounce "lease cancelled!"?

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salam

2:40 to about 2:74 has a lot about what they did. In the next couple of dozen verses or so its mainly Ahlul kitab at the time of the Prophet [sawa], although some verses mention the jews specifically.

It's important to keep in mind that Christianity was founded AFTER Judaism, but BEFORE Christianity became a major religion. Likewise, Islam was founded AFTER Christianity, but BEFORE Islam became a major religion. Christian texts had a chance to dis Jews, and Muslim texts a chance to dis Jews and Christians.

The abuses by Islamist fanatics, people such as certain posters here who hide behind their ignorance of the Qur'an and hate up on Jews, illegitimate government leaders who drape themselves in blood-soaked flags, can't have been listed in the Qur'an because the Qur'an was completed at least 13 or 14 centuries ago. Unless some other person can come along and start whatever comes after Islam, there's not going to be a religion which says "Islamist fanatics blew up too many people pretending to worship me, so I sent a new prophet." The only people who can do that are Muslims of conscious who are offended by the way certain posters here go pitt-bull-crazy attacking Jews, Israelis, etc.

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I forget the ayah, but the Qur'an states that G-d doesn't break promises unless He gives a better one.

And who the hell made you G-d that you can pronounce "lease cancelled!"?

Issue is, the promise was conditional on good behavior. Your ancestors reneged on their end of the deal, twice. In each case, the price was the collapse of an independent distinctly Jewish state and exile amongst the nations. This is your own doctrine. If you don't like it, maybe you should seek a different religion.

Edited by kadhim
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Issue is, the promise was conditional on good behavior. Your ancestors reneged on their end of the deal, twice. In each case, the price was the collapse of an independent distinctly Jewish state and exile amongst the nations. This is your own doctrine. If you don't like it, maybe you should seek a different religion.

I'm sorry, but you really do need to learn to read Hebrew. I suspect you can't read Arabic either, but if you're going to make stuff up, you might try learning to read Hebrew.

And just to remind you, because you guys can't ever seem to understand it, but Judaism isn't a "religion". You have a "religion". I don't.

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"...Qaala 'salaama'"

Deuteronomy 28

1And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

2And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

3Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

4Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

5Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

6Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

7The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

8The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

9The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

10And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.

11And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

12The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

13And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

14And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

20The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

21The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

22The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

24The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

25The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

27The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.

28The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:

29And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

30Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.

31Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.

32Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.

33The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:

34So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

35The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.

36The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

37And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

38Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.

39Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.

40Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.

41Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.

42All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

43The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.

44He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

45Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

46And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

47Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

48Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:

55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.

56The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

57And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

58If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

59Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

60Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

61Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

62And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

63And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

64And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

67In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

68And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

Deuteronomy 30

1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

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Nice to see she still hasn't said a word to my post#10 and this is her second reminder.

What does Judaism say= Jews have no right to that land; a claim that remains refuted

No, Judaism says we have an ETERNAL and UNALTERABLE right to the land. What we do not have is an absolute right to OCCUPY the land. However, it also states that the people who occupy the land do so because they are EVIL and when we do have the right to again re-occupy the land, we may kill them because they are EVIL. The proper description for a culture that teaches young children that it's okay to strap bombs onto their body and kill others, or teaches people like you to be raging bigots would be "an evil culture".

You were told this back when we were on speaking terms and it appears the full impact of it did not sink in. You do not want to take the role of "G-d's Own Sheriff", as you called the Romans (who were one of the more debased and evil empires going). Because when G-d is done dealing with you, for all the harm you've caused the Jews, there will be no more "you" left.

Remember -- we outlasted the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Holy Roman and Ottoman empires. We'll outlast you, too. That's why Hitler wanted us killed once and for all -- we kept reminding tyrants like yourself that G-d eventually puts you back in your place by destroying you.

Here's one of the really cool things about Judaism -- we know we're Jews, even if we're not raised that way. I heard yet another Jewess recently talk about how she got to a certain age and had this unshakable desire to be a Jew. And all her family, and everyone around her, told her she was crazy. But she wanted to anyway. Turns out that she's yet another Jew by birth. Best hope that once Muslim states stop killing people for trying to leave Islam all the descendants of all the Jews who were forcibly converted to Islam 13 or 14 centuries ago don't decide to return to Judaism. The day Muslims like you lose their strangle hold on Islam is the day your ilk will lose not only their power, but also their heads.

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it also states that the people who occupy the land do so because they are EVIL and when we do have the right to again re-occupy the land, we may kill them because they are EVIL

well jews occupy the land now therefore they are evil and git 'em done :!!!:

thats stupid right there i don't care who you are.

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No, Judaism says we have an ETERNAL and UNALTERABLE right to the land.

Yeah that's why you have nothing to say about the "Three Oaths" that your people violated. Your inability to reply to simple questions is the ultimate proof you have no answers for them.

You were told this back when we were on speaking terms and it appears the full impact of it did not sink in. You do not want to take the role of "G-d's Own Sheriff", as you called the Romans (who were one of the more debased and evil empires going). Because when G-d is done dealing with you, for all the harm you've caused the Jews, there will be no more "you" left.

You wish sweetheart. The Jewish population is going down hill FAST. And not because anybody is killing you despite your attempts to use that excuse. Its because Jews themselves are getting fed up with Judaism hence all the interfaith marriages with christians and other sects.

Remember -- we outlasted the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Holy Roman and Ottoman empires. We'll outlast you, too. That's why Hitler wanted us killed once and for all -- we kept reminding tyrants like yourself that G-d eventually puts you back in your place by destroying you.

Bull [Edited Out]. You keep singing this tune despite it being debunked a gazillion times

There have been FAR greater acts of ethnic genocide against many a more people than the Jews. The hindus were around long before you, and they have outlasted you.

90% of all natives in North America were wiped out by European diseases. Even Jews haven't had that happen to them, and yet the natives not only predate the Jews but also are outlasting them

Here's one of the really cool things about Judaism -- we know we're Jews, even if we're not raised that way. I heard yet another Jewess recently talk about how she got to a certain age and had this unshakable desire to be a Jew. And all her family, and everyone around her, told her she was crazy. But she wanted to anyway. Turns out that she's yet another Jew by birth. Best hope that once Muslim states stop killing people for trying to leave Islam all the descendants of all the Jews who were forcibly converted to Islam 13 or 14 centuries ago don't decide to return to Judaism. The day Muslims like you lose their strangle hold on Islam is the day your ilk will lose not only their power, but also their heads.

65% of Jews don't believe in God and that stat aint going away no matter how much you try to cherry coat it. Keep babbling about your so-called special relationship with God; if anything you have a special "aversion" to God. Its almost impossible for a Jew to continue believing in God through Judaism because eventually the excessive legalism and lack of spirituality destroy it all.

And islam is growing faster than anything. People far worse than you have tried to stop it; especially the evangelicals. But a las we don't spend any money at all doing dawah and yet we are growing faster than the christians who spend millions trying to fish converts everywhere.

But regardless this latest rant of yours is just another excuse for your inability to answer tough questions. My post#10 remains unrefuted, and any lay man reading this thread will see that. So keep barking baby!

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Koro,

Your post #10 has been answered several times. There's simply no point in responding to you because you cannot read Arabic or Hebrew and you haven't a clue about Judaism.

But hey -- Islam is still the religion of Peace!

(CNN) -- At least 29 people were killed and 88 wounded in 17 blasts within a little more than an hour Saturday night in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad, police and government officials said.

All metropolitan areas in India have been put on high alert.

Several media outlets and the country's Intelligence Bureau received an e-mail, purportedly from the Muslim militant group Indian Mujahedeen, warning about a possible attack. The group previously has claimed responsibility for two similar attacks in the past nine months in northern India.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/2...asts/index.html

I'm going to start including these in my replies to you. You can lie, and I'll tell the truth. Deal?

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Koro,

Your post #10 has been answered several times. There's simply no point in responding to you because you cannot read Arabic or Hebrew and you haven't a clue about Judaism.

Straw-man

All you did was go on your usual rant about how great the Jews are. You did absolutely nothing to address the "Three Oaths" thing at all.

The Jews against Israel seem to know a heck of a lot more Judaism than your shabbat breaking behind ever will; hence why they are my source material while the best you can come with are usual anti-islamic sources.

Case closed. You lose again.

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All you did was go on your usual rant about how great the Jews are. You did absolutely nothing to address the "Three Oaths" thing at all.

Could you find those "three oaths" in the Torah for me?

Thanks.

The Jews against Israel seem to know a heck of a lot more Judaism than your shabbat breaking behind ever will; hence why they are my source material while the best you can come with are usual anti-islamic sources.

Case closed. You lose again.

The "Jews Against Zionism" are a pretty typical example of self-hating Jews, typically of Eastern or Central European origin. They are the kind of Jew who thinks that if they just keep loving up on people who want to kill them (people like you, that is), that those people will stop trying to kill them.

The other thing they don't get is that G-d isn't a "Presto-Changeo" kinda guy. Jews have prospered in Israel -- and that's undeniable. What does the Torah say? Oh, yeah -- we'll prosper. Apparently G-d isn't too upset with us ...

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Six people, including two Hamas militants, were killed Friday in separate Gaza City explosions, Shiva Hospital spokesman said.

A Hamas member of parliament escaped injury in a third blast, Hamas said.

The Islamist group Hamas blamed the attacks on members of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party. There was no immediate comment from Fatah.

The two factions have been bitterly divided since Hamas drove Abbas' security forces from Gaza last year.

Five of the deaths resulted from an explosion Friday night behind a tent on the beach, the hospital spokesman said. Among the dead were two members of Hamas and a girl 5 to 7 years old, he said. The identities of the other two fatalities were undetermined.

He said 20 people were wounded in that blast, which occurred about 9:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET).

Earlier in the day, one man died and two people were wounded when a bomb exploded at a coffee shop.

The Hamas politician escaped injury from an explosion Friday morning outside his home.

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No, Judaism says we have an ETERNAL and UNALTERABLE right to the land. What we do not have is an absolute right to OCCUPY the land. However, it also states that the people who occupy the land do so because they are EVIL and when we do have the right to again re-occupy the land, we may kill them because they are EVIL. The proper description for a culture that teaches young children that it's okay to strap bombs onto their body and kill others, or teaches people like you to be raging bigots would be "an evil culture".

You were told this back when we were on speaking terms and it appears the full impact of it did not sink in. You do not want to take the role of "G-d's Own Sheriff", as you called the Romans (who were one of the more debased and evil empires going). Because when G-d is done dealing with you, for all the harm you've caused the Jews, there will be no more "you" left.

For all your vitriol and unprovoked verbal aggression against so many here, you still have a woeful lack of understanding of your own religion. Not sure where your ill mind got the idea that we were trying to be "God's Sheriff," but regarding the Romans (and by extension, the Babylonians and Assyrians as well), it is standard Jewish belief that God sometimes uses evil people to administer His justice. The whole "mysterious ways" business. It is standard Judiasm 101 level belief that the Babylonians and Romans acted as instruments of God's will, executing an eviction notice against your ancestors for their crimes against God. If you're so offended by Jewish belief, maybe you should find another place to hang your flag.

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Let's make this all very simple.

Jews have no Divine exclusive right to the Palestinian region.

Muslims have no Divine exclusive right to the Palestinian region.

Christians have no Divine exclusive right to the Palestinian region.

It is impossible to assign lots in the modern world based on 3000 year old title deeds.

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Rashi was a briliant Talmudic scholar who wrote during the first crusade. Commenting on Genesis and why it does not begin with the actual laws but with the creation of the universe he writes that it is to show that everything belongs to God and God gives to whom he wills. Now of course he says in the end the Jews will return but he admits that God gives to whom he wishes. This "return" of course is predicated by the coming of the Moshiach "Messiah."

As Brother Koro has pointed out, the Rabbanim were against the creation of a "state" to use an anachronism. They had no problems with Jews going back (Jerusalem had a Jewish community when the Muslims recaptured Jerusalem) but NOT for trying to establish a state. If one reads Herzl's ideas one would be amused: Jews would only use Hebrew in prayer but not for anything else. The eastern european Jews would be civilized by their western counterparts, and so would the Arabs and the whole place would resound with Brahm's 4th symphony and recitations of Goethe. In short, the future state would be secular! This is completely anti-thetical to the Rabbinate view: the return of the Mesiah and reinstatement of the rule of the Sanhedrin.

Personally, as a Muslim, as a Shia Muslim in particular, I have wrestled with the idea of an Islamic state without the Imam Mahdi (as) governing it. I can see the arguments pro and against the establishment of an Islamic state: who decides what is "Islamic" and what is not, what right do we have creating a government without our Imam (as)? I in the end think there should be an Islamicaly influenced state since Islam is different things to different groups, depending on who you ask.

Back to the topic: the Rabbanim were against the founding of a state, that is an established fact.

Could you find those "three oaths" in the Torah for me?

Thanks.

The "Jews Against Zionism" are a pretty typical example of self-hating Jews, typically of Eastern or Central European origin. They are the kind of Jew who thinks that if they just keep loving up on people who want to kill them (people like you, that is), that those people will stop trying to kill them.

The other thing they don't get is that G-d isn't a "Presto-Changeo" kinda guy. Jews have prospered in Israel -- and that's undeniable. What does the Torah say? Oh, yeah -- we'll prosper. Apparently G-d isn't too upset with us ...

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Six people, including two Hamas militants, were killed Friday in separate Gaza City explosions, Shiva Hospital spokesman said.

A Hamas member of parliament escaped injury in a third blast, Hamas said.

The Islamist group Hamas blamed the attacks on members of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party. There was no immediate comment from Fatah.

The two factions have been bitterly divided since Hamas drove Abbas' security forces from Gaza last year.

Five of the deaths resulted from an explosion Friday night behind a tent on the beach, the hospital spokesman said. Among the dead were two members of Hamas and a girl 5 to 7 years old, he said. The identities of the other two fatalities were undetermined.

He said 20 people were wounded in that blast, which occurred about 9:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET).

Earlier in the day, one man died and two people were wounded when a bomb exploded at a coffee shop.

The Hamas politician escaped injury from an explosion Friday morning outside his home.

Financial prosperity is not a sign of divine approval. If that were true the apostate kingdom of Israel was more blessed than the kingdom of Judah. Israel was powerful for a while and Judah could barely keep itself alive. Yet, we know that the royal line was with King David (as).

Edited by sarajlici
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STOP ARGUING.

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!

I don't want to hear anything more about anyone being "decapitated", people of "your ilk", questioning someone's ability to read Arabic/Hebrew/any other language. I also don't want to hear anyone being told to "stop barking" or being prodded to respond.

You guys are going to get suspended if you keep it up.

Argue somewhere else, NOT on ShiaChat!!

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