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In the Name of God بسم الله

Documentary Hypothesis And Support In Academia

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..... the Documentary Hypothesis is accepted by pretty much all of academia (with huge debates about some details) some Orthodox Jews, and most Christian groups, including the Catholic Church and most Protestant denominations.

In contrast, the only people who advocate Torah Min Hashamayim (that the Torah is unchanged) are mainly Orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Christians. Moreover, no one advocates even an early date for the Torah (say, before King Solomon) or a single author (even if not God).

http://www.threejews.net/2008/07/tmh-dh-project-bias.html

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Thank you fro the link Bro and I have been following the discourse with keen interest ever since. I hope inshallah everyone interested in the subject will also follow it as keenly as I. Ofcourse my primary concern on this DH issue is whether it has any relevance to us as Muslims at a primary level and as Shia at a secondary level. Thats still a virgin territory in the DH industry and I believe we Muslims can make a huge impact here.

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As opposed to the Qur'an where the originals were destroyed on the order of an "Imam" that most Muslims loathe, and which has enough conflicts over it's chain of authenticity, with "abrogated" verses, "Satanic" verses, verses eaten by goats, that it's essentially worthless from an authenticity of transmission perspective.

Edited by Ariella
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We have told you this in the past and never shall we tire of reminding you that if the Quran were flawed or false, it would fail the DH test. Now you can scream, shout or even bang your head on the wall, but it will not change the fact that the Quran is indeed the word of God sent as a corrective measure to the Bible.

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As opposed to the Qur'an where the originals were destroyed on the order of an "Imam" that most Muslims loathe, and which has enough conflicts over it's chain of authenticity, with "abrogated" verses, "Satanic" verses, verses eaten by goats, that it's essentially worthless from an authenticity of transmission perspective.

As your fellow jew in the above link noted, the DH is accepted by ALL academia, most protestant denominations, the Catholic Church and most Jewish denominations. Only orthodox and fundamentalist christians disbelieve. But hey you were the one who said orthodox jews have a habit of contradicting themselves ^_^

The Uthmanic story is a lie and you have been told various times why it is that way.

There is no conflict over any of its chains of authenticity. All ayats are confirmed to be mutawatir hadith. So you are lying your butt of with this one.

Abrogated verses exist in the Torah, as we have been discussing them in the other thread. you are outright lied to us before about abrogation being foreign to Judaism.

As for the satanic verses, or hadiths about goats eating parts of the Quran or whatever. Those are all in sunni collections and sunnis have done a fine job refuting them. go on a sunni site and sunni will refute the lies spread by sites like answering-islam whom you get your material from

Unlike Jewish history, muslims were never into historical revisionism. Hence we keep all sorts of hadiths no matter how crazy they sound. Thankfully because the science of the hadith does such a fine of job of separating false, conjured up hadith from reliable ones, we don't have this problem at all. Were you not so clueless about how our hadith sciences work, you would realize how useless these false hadith are, mostly made up by jewish/pagan scribes posing as muslims seeking to undermine islam. Sunnis debunked them 1400 years ago, and their methodology is available on sites like Islam-Awareness. What makes you think, you a novice, can accomplish over experts in hadith sciences; people who devote their lives to this stuff

And of course unlike Jeremiah 8:8 we have no admission in our holy book of scribes falsifying things. That's the problem with the Torah; for the first 1500 of Jewish history its reliability depends on scribes, where as the Quran was given to everyone by Muhammed (pbuh) in his lifetime. thousands knew its by heart before his time came to an end. since the beginning thousands and today millions of hafiz know it by heart. To edit it, means to undo what millions have memorized and that is just impossible to do.

The Torah's internal contradictions such as two accounts of creation do well enough a job of showing how it wasn't preserved. The Quran has no contradictions so once again the Quran wins out.

Edited by koroigetsuga
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As opposed to the Qur'an where the originals were destroyed on the order of an "Imam" that most Muslims loathe, and which has enough conflicts over it's chain of authenticity, with "abrogated" verses, "Satanic" verses, verses eaten by goats, that it's essentially worthless from an authenticity of transmission perspective.

the smell of desperation...it was common from the time the noble quran was revealed and those who failed all its challenges were frustrated by their intellectual incapacity, they had to resort to war, wasting their wealth and composing polemical poetry and name calling, and all this availed them nothing. At one point, the Quraysh asked a highly respected judge among them to come and give his appreciation regarding the Quran:

"O Al-Walid, what is this which Muhammad is uttering? Is it magic, soothsaying, or oratory?" Muhammad started with "Bismilllah il Rahman ilrahim" Al-Walid mockingly said: "Do you call us to follow a man of Yamamah who is called ar-Rahman (Musaylimah who claimed prophethood)?"

Muhammad continued by reciting Surah Fussilat until he reached verse 13 "But if they turn aside, then say: I have warned you of a scourge like the scourge of Ad and Samood". After the recitation, Al-Walid turned back and went to his home, his people felt disgraced and went to him after a while, thinking he accepted Muhammad's call. He answered "I did not do so. Rather, I stand by the religion of my people and my forefathers. I have, however, heard great words which cause skins to shudder" He could not classify it in any style, whether is it poetry or another kind of discourse so he told the people "Say it is magic, for it has truly attracted the hearts".

To this came the answer in the Quran

74:11-26"Leave Me and him whom I created alone,And give him vast riches,And sons dwelling in his presence,and I adjusted affairs for him adjustably..Surely he reflected and guessed..Then he looked,then he frowned and scowled,Then he turned back and was big with pride,Then he said: This is naught but enchantment, narrated (from others);This is naught but the word of a mortal.I will cast him into hell".

Ultimately, they used to hide themselves to avoid hearing its sound

11:5"Now surely they fold up their breasts that they may conceal (their enmity) from Him; now surely, when they use their garments as a covering, He knows what they conceal and what they make public; surely He knows what is in the breasts".

They prefered ignoring the repeaterd challenges and ask for miracles and wonders 10:20,17:90-93. The people of the book asked for a book to be sent down entirely and at once from heaven 4:153, but the quran reminds how the jews asked Musa even greater miracles and disbelieved after clear signs had been shown to them. They even asked to see God himself 2:55-56 and lightening struck them.

This showed that these are a people gone far in their ignorance and straying, without desisting from disbelief even when clear proofs come to them, nor from breaking the covenants however sacred they might be, people with such characteristics do not deserve that their demands be granted.

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You're confusing an argument against the infallibility of the Qur'an, in terms of preservation of every pen stroke, and an argument against the Qur'an as divine revelation. You're also engaging in the standard anti-Semitic "The Jews" way of lumping all Jews together into a monolithic blob.

In response to Koro's repeated use of the Documentary Hypothesis to attack Judaism, I've asked him to provide proof from the Qur'an that the Torah we have today isn't the Torah we had before we entered Eretz Yisrael. He's provided none. Surely if the Documentary Hypothesis were correct, it would be in the Qur'an. It isn't.

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It is and we have demonstrated it amply. Your strategy as per usual was avoidance.

Oy vey.

Alright, provide your proofs, do your best.

There's either an ayah, or a hadith, which states that a Muslim is NOT to say which parts of the Torah are true or false. If the Qur'an supports the Documentary Hypothesis, it would have to name the parts that are false.

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Oy vey.

Alright, provide your proofs, do your best.

There's either an ayah, or a hadith, which states that a Muslim is NOT to say which parts of the Torah are true or false. If the Qur'an supports the Documentary Hypothesis, it would have to name the parts that are false.

THe DH only demonstrates that there are doublets with a varying message. The DH does not prove which of the 2 messages from the doublets are right or wrong. Thats how you know where the importance of the Quran and its reverence of the Torah comes in i.e. you need the Quran to know which of the doublets is accurate. Once you strip away the irrational, then you have a Torah.

The story of Moses and the water from the rock is sufficient evidence.

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You're confusing an argument against the infallibility of the Qur'an, in terms of preservation of every pen stroke, and an argument against the Qur'an as divine revelation. You're also engaging in the standard anti-Semitic "The Jews" way of lumping all Jews together into a monolithic blob.

i didnt expect you to understand the analogy i was trying to make as your are the typical example of stubbornness with all the myths you keep bringing up no matter how many times they have been explained to you and despite the fact you could take just a 30min google look up to see the answers to your accusations before posting these kind of things which make you lose all credibility.

i was showing that the unbelievers of the time of muhammad(sas) were so frustrated due to their intellectual incapacity to answer the arguments and challenges presented by the quran that they resorted to composing polemical poetry and name calling, just like what you are doing now by copy/pasting the typical recycled anti-islam polemics..i was also showing how the people of the book constantly asked the prophet to perform miracles and wonders in order to believe while they asked even greater things to moses and disbelieved in his lifetime and after his passing away. i heard this many times from jews, that in order for them to believe they absolutely need a miracle similar to the events at sinai while even when a sea was split in 2 for them, saving their life, they kept disbelieving so why would god grant them their requests..i mentioned this to show the stubbornness of some people including you who keep clinging to lies no matter how many times you are refuted.

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i was showing that the unbelievers of the time of muhammad(sas) were so frustrated due to their intellectual incapacity to answer the arguments and challenges presented by the quran that they resorted to composing polemical poetry and name calling, just like what you are doing now by copy/pasting the typical recycled anti-islam polemics..

I've never, not once, used an anti-Islam website when I knew it was one, to form my arguments. Most of what I write is either based on actually reading the Qur'an (which I've almost completely done), examining Arabic roots if there is a dispute about the meaning of some word (Hebrew and Arabic aren't unrelated languages), being familiar with history, and so on.

I'm sorry to say this, but Islam is just like Christianity and Judaism in one major regard -- if your intentions are evil, it's very easy to find justification for doing wrong. To the extent that Christians have more military power than Jews or Muslims, Jews and Muslims have suffered at the hands of Christians. Now that Islam is again rising in military power, jihadis, Islamists, people who think they are Allah's personal hand grenade, etc. are crawling out of the woodwork in the same manner as the Crusaders of Christian wars gone by. Your religion has been hijacked by people who wish to do evil and if that offends you, tough. You deal with it -- I'm not a Muslim, I shouldn't have to police your religion for you.

i was also showing how the people of the book constantly asked the prophet to perform miracles and wonders in order to believe while they asked even greater things to moses and disbelieved in his lifetime and after his passing away. i heard this many times from jews, that in order for them to believe they absolutely need a miracle similar to the events at sinai while even when a sea was split in 2 for them, saving their life, they kept disbelieving so why would god grant them their requests..i mentioned this to show the stubbornness of some people including you who keep clinging to lies no matter how many times you are refuted.

First, "The Jews" aren't a monolith. Secondly, when "The Jews" did disbelieve, it was not the entire nation. For example, the episode with the golden calf, it was only a few thousands of over a million people, total. Thirdly, we were a nation of monotheists when every other nation around us (and we weren't in North America or wherever else someone wants to bring up as a counter argument) wasn't.

Now, if you'd like to actually refute me, fine. Have a go. But I'm going to point out that the people G-d destroyed with the flood were destroyed by the rain G-d sent. And that's in the Qur'an as well. The people G-d destroy with fire (S'dom) were destroyed by the fire G-d sent from heaven. And that's in the Qur'an as well. The armies of Pharaoh G-d drowned in the Reed Sea were drowned by G-d after G-d parted the Sea. And that's in the Qur'an as well. Why is it that "The Jews" are being attacked by Islamists? One would think that if it was G-d who wants us out of Eretz Yisrael, surely G-d could sent plague or famine or a meteor or earthquake or whatever, and not a 12 year old boy with a bomb strapped to his body shouting "Allah Akbar!" as he ended his own life and that of others around him?

The answer is simple -- the same evil that led Yahzid to try and wipe out Ahlul Bayt is the same evil that makes Islamists want to wipe out B'nei Yisrael. G-d doesn't need partners, and that includes however many Islamists want to strap on bombs to their bodies and murder innocent civilians, or launch rockets at folks in S'derot or Haifa or Tel Aviv, or wherever else.

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I've never, not once, used an anti-Islam website when I knew it was one, to form my arguments. Most of what I write is either based on actually reading the Qur'an

ariella, nothing of all your recent stereotypical accusations against islam have any basis in the quran

I'm sorry to say this, but Islam is just like Christianity and Judaism in one major regard -- if your intentions are evil, it's very easy to find justification for doing wrong.

you're making more sense now by separating the individuals from the religion

First, "The Jews" aren't a monolith. Secondly, when "The Jews" did disbelieve, it was not the entire nation. For example, the episode with the golden calf, it was only a few thousands of over a million people, total. Thirdly, we were a nation of monotheists when every other nation around us (and we weren't in North America or wherever else someone wants to bring up as a counter argument) wasn't.

Moses(as) himself addressed your forefathers as a monolith as "stiff necked" and foresaw how corrupt they will be after his death, jeremiah later confirmed this fact and i remember i already showed you in another thread a reliable jewish source explaining how the early jews frequently changed religion in their lifetime and quickly strayed from monotheism, which casts much doubt on a so-called national revelation..

i would like also to share with you this story from the quran revealing very eloquently how "stiff necked" were the people moses had to face and how hard it was for him to make them bend to God's will:

2:67-71 shows their offensive behavior towards their prophet whom they accused of ridiculing them when he simply conveyed God's command to sacrifice a cow so they went on asking Moses that he might ask "his lord", as though He was not their Lord, for more and more particulars regarding which cow was to be sacrificed and when their requests were granted they arrogantly answered that to them "the cows are all alike", implying that God's description was not enough for identification purpose, not realizing that it was not the cow, but the divine will, which produced the desired result. This command to sacrifice a cow comes in the context of manslaughter as described in Deut21 and the Quran gives details on the first time this command was issued to the Israelites and their reaction.

Why is it that "The Jews" are being attacked by Islamists?

because the jews have brought this upon themselves and they will never live in peace as long as they continue their inhumane behavior towards the palestinians

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because the jews have brought this upon themselves and they will never live in peace as long as they continue their inhumane behavior towards the palestinians

The divine irony. 2000 years ago they persecuted a Palestinian who was sent to guide them. Today they persecute all Palestinians. And for what. Israel is a nation where the majority populations are atheists, agnostics and irreligious folk busy engaging in skiny dipping and other forms of fornication. Israel is one of the world leading producers of porn for crying out loud. Is this what the holy land was for?

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The divine irony. 2000 years ago they persecuted a Palestinian who was sent to guide them. Today they persecute all Palestinians. And for what. Israel is a nation where the majority populations are atheists, agnostics and irreligious folk busy engaging in skiny dipping and other forms of fornication. Israel is one of the world leading producers of porn for crying out loud. Is this what the holy land was for?

Jesus wasn't a "Palestinian", unless all of Judea were also "Palestinians".

Now, if you want to claim that all Jews are actually "Palestinians", perhaps this would shed some new light on the current "Palestinian" conflict.

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Jesus wasn't a "Palestinian", unless all of Judea were also "Palestinians".

Now, if you want to claim that all Jews are actually "Palestinians", perhaps this would shed some new light on the current "Palestinian" conflict.

He lived in Palestine; hence he was a Palestinian, just when you live in america you are american.

Care to answer Nad's post above or are you gonna runaway from this one as well.

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He lived in Palestine; hence he was a Palestinian, just when you live in america you are american.

Care to answer Nad's post above or are you gonna runaway from this one as well.

He lived in Judea, and you well know it.

You also know that it was the Romans who invented the name "Palestine" in order to attempt to erase any memory that Jews lived there. They were as unsuccessful as the Assyrians, Greeks and everyone else who tried, and that includes Muslims.

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He lived in Judea, and you well know it.

You also know that it was the Romans who invented the name "Palestine" in order to attempt to erase any memory that Jews lived there. They were as unsuccessful as the Assyrians, Greeks and everyone else who tried, and that includes Muslims.

The name is irrelevant. It was called Palestine during his time, and it is called Palestine now. Hence he was a Palestinian. I see you still didn't address Nad's post above; glad to know we are continuing our usual cycle.

Ariella muslims don't wish to kill Jews. And you saying so, everytime you lose an argument in an attempt to infuriate your opponent, won't change that simple fact. We are frustrated with the genocide being committed against arabs in Palestine/Judea, but even the most diehard amongst us knows about the rather MASSIVE difference between Judaism and Zionism.

And once again if you feel Jews being alive is some sort of miracle then go ahead. But frankly like Daystar you are engaging in the "proof by repeated assertion" fallacy. You keep repeating this point, despite it being debunked everytime you say it.......The hindus have had far worse done to them than Jews, and they are still around. The natives had 90% of their population eradicated by Europeans, and Jews have never even come to close to experiencing such a genocide, yet they too have outlasted you. Even the animists who likely have declined in being in lower number than Jews have outlasted you.

Now if you want a real miracle then you should try Zam Zam. What better proof for our creed than a miracle that is there and happening for us everyday.

And here's a little icing on that cake. We HAVE prophecies of what will happen with the Jews during the end times, and as you know muslims prophecies have an amazing record of coming true like with Imam Ali's whole deal with Iraq today. That means that if Jews weren't around till the end times, then it could destroy islam but like you said you have a habit of "outlasting" everyone else. So do continue staying around because we certainly don't want anyone to be able to debunk islam, now do we ;)

Edited by koroigetsuga
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The HISTORICAL FREAKING FACT that the Romans renamed Judea to "Palestine" is taught in all real history books. It was done after the Bar Kokhbah Rebellion failed. The Roman name was the "Iudean Province", because they can't seem to write the letter "J" so good.

Doesn't matter. countries and lands get renamed all the time. Even India itself got her name from the foreigners who controlled her. please try not being so absent minded about human history.

Henceforth its was called Palestine since then. And since Jesus (pbuh) lived there, he was Palestinian.

The Philistines, who weren't even Arabs to begin with, were long since DEAD. We killed them, with help from the Assyrians and Babylonians, for the same reasons the Egyptians (Ramses III) gave them what became the Gaza Strip -- the were sea-faring raiders, much like the Vikings, who invaded territories and killed civilians. Modern Palestinians are ARABS who migrated to what became Israel after European Jews brought intensive farming to Israel.

More Jewish historical revisionism. Only 7% of the land was actually bought. The rest was stolen from the Arabs by force. The only time Israel has ever bothered listening to what the UN has to say is when they were willing to help them colonize Palestine, otherwise they have ignored them since then.

The Palestinians have been there for centuries, long before Jews migrated from European countries into Israel. Archaeology has also confirmed that the Torah was utterly wrong, as Jews have NEVER had access to the totality of the biblical land of Canaan, which makes so-called Jewish right to that land even more questionable.

On top of that

we have an orthodox Jewish organization very much calling that land Palestine. You would do well to listen to his words.
If you wish to lie to make your points, fine.

Once again you are resorting to deceitful tactics and ad hominems because you just can't stand losing an argument.

Apparently the moderators don't care what you do to this board with your incessant lies and attacks on Jews and Judaism.

Jews and Judaism? We were discussing Jesus' (pbuh) nationality. That has nothing to do with Jews and Judaism. Everytime you lose an argument you accuse me of dissing Jews or Judaism. As people can see for themselves, that is just not true.

"Zamzam" is no more miraculous than any other well. I mean, it's a WELL. Ground water has a way of being in the ground and aquifers have a way of transporting water from one geological structure to another. If you bother to read the Torah, my ancestors dug wells all over the place. If Yishmael dug a well there, good on him. Abraham and his sons seem to have had a thing for digging wells. But that doesn't make it a "miracle".

Wow! You soooooo wrong. People have been trying for quite a while to discover where in the world the water from there comes from. On top of that its never the stopped; the water has been coming out of there for centuries, and is seemingly endless in supply. I mean experts (usually secularists eager to debunk islam) like geologists and what not, have tried relentlessly, and they haven't discovered any source for it. It remains one of our most "unexplained" miracles. But don't take my word for it. By all means open a thread in the "General Discussions" section, as more informed brothers/sisters can tell you way more about it than I know, as my knowledge on it is limited.

And now once again you are attempting to derail this thread as you did with all the others. This is the third time I am reminding you about Nad's post which still remains unanswered. I see we are repeating our usual cycle. Perhaps in your inability to answer simple questions, you are hoping to get the mods involved with this thread as well and make them close it down. ....Predictable ^_^

Edited by koroigetsuga
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