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Aabiss_Shakari

Hazrat Ali (as) Versus Shaikhain Before Quran

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we asked you to do research and find out the ages for us for the most contributors of hadiths in bukhari .... once you have done that come and argue otherwise you don't stand a point

I dont think so - we are talking about Imam Ali a.s. and the the prophet PBUH best companions r.a. so leave it there .

If he a.s. was not Baaligh you have no argument whatsoever .

Now pls define the word Baaligh or Mukalaf ? anyone ? or dont you have a definition for it ?

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Age does count - since he was Not baaligh there are no way you can compare .

Define the Word Mukalaf or Baaligh please .

age counts??says who

Prophet Eesa A.S gave evidence of Bibi Maryam's chastily at childhood

It was a small child who gave testimony for hazret Yusuf A.S

bye bye tata

Muawiay pey lanat bey shumar

Narey haidryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

YaA Ali ya Ali Ali haq haiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Firoz Ali

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age counts??says who

Prophet Eesa A.S gave evidence of Bibi Maryam's chastily at childhood

It was a small child who gave testimony for hazret Yusuf A.S

bye bye tata

Muawiay pey lanat bey shumar

Narey haidryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

YaA Ali ya Ali Ali haq haiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Firoz Ali

Define the Word Baaligh or Mukalaf :) .

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y shud i define

its u who claimed that age does count

i proved that young and including new born babies testimony is of great importance in islam

nareyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy haidryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Yaa Ali Yaaa Ali Yaa Ali madad haq hai

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y shud i define

its u who claimed that age does count

i proved that young and including new born babies testimony is of great importance in islam

nareyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy haidryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Yaa Ali Yaaa Ali Yaa Ali madad haq hai

testimony is nothing - it wont change the fact that deeds at that age dont count - meaning they cant be Judged at that age .

So comparing between a child and adults is a weak argument .

You cant Define it cause it will be evidence against you .

Edited by s@jaad

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testimony is nothing - it wont change the fact that deeds at that age dont count - meaning they cant be Judged at that age .

So comparing between a child and adults is a weak argument .

You cant Define it cause it will be evidence against you .

brother if you don't mind me asking which Fiqa do you choose to follow??????? like what do you call yourself......?and how do you come up with these interesting thoughts and conclusions ? Give us some insight please...

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brother if you don't mind me asking which Fiqa do you choose to follow??????? like what do you call yourself......?and how do you come up with these interesting thoughts and conclusions ? Give us some insight please...

Oh Household of the prophet SAWAS a.s. love for you is a Fardh from Allah SWT

Imam Shafie - Sayyida NAfeesa Al Tahira a.s. - Abdulqadir Jeylani Al Hasani r.a .

Contemplate .

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Oh Household of the prophet SAWAS a.s. love for you is a Fardh from Allah SWT

Imam Shafie - Sayyida NAfeesa Al Tahira a.s. - Abdulqadir Jeylani Al Hasani r.a .

Contemplate .

i can't make any sense of what you have said above .. all i asked was which school of thought you belong to e.g. sunni/hanafi

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testimony is nothing - it wont change the fact that deeds at that age dont count - meaning they cant be Judged at that age .

So comparing between a child and adults is a weak argument .

You cant Define it cause it will be evidence against you .

Salams

Are you in your right mind ?

Tell me whether Imam Ali's acceptance of Islam was due to divine inspiration from God or was it due to the invitation of the Prophet ? If you say that Imam Ali accepted Islam due to divine inspiration, you are placing Imam Ali above the Prophet. If you say that Imam Ali accepted Islam due to the invitation of the Prophet, you have to make a decision as to whether the Prophet's invitation was God's will or the will of the Prophet Himself. Notice that if you believe Imam Ali accepted Islam only because of the Prophet's will, you contradict Quran. So please explain, how does our age influence our firm ideology of the oneness of Allah and the acceptance of Prophethood of RasulAllah, especially when the Prophet is the one inviting ?

What you are actually reffering to is the baligh age in which it is compulsory for Muslims to follow the jurisprudential laws of religion, which came into effect long after our Prophet taught earlier Muslims, the primary ideologies of Islam. In regards to those fiqhi matters, Imam Ali a.s followed jurisprudence of our religion, even though He was technically not a baligh. So we are supposed to praise a Momin and admire His knowledge, understanding and maturity which helped him learn and follow Islamic jurisprudence at such as earlier age, when He was not even obliged to follow them. That was the time when a mature adult such as Ibn e Abi Qahafa (the known Abu Baqr) was still a non-Muslim, having no clue of religion or it's jurisprudence.

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Salams

Are you in your right mind ?

Tell me whether Imam Ali's acceptance of Islam was due to divine inspiration from God or was it due to the invitation of the Prophet ? If you say that Imam Ali accepted Islam due to divine inspiration, you are placing Imam Ali above the Prophet. If you say that Imam Ali accepted Islam due to the invitation of the Prophet, you have to make a decision as to whether the Prophet's invitation was God's will or the will of the Prophet Himself. Notice that if you believe Imam Ali accepted Islam only because of the Prophet's will, you contradict Quran. So please explain, how does our age influence our firm ideology of the oneness of Allah and the acceptance of Prophethood of RasulAllah, especially when the Prophet is the one inviting ?

What you are actually reffering to is the baligh age in which it is compulsory for Muslims to follow the jurisprudential laws of religion, which came into effect long after our Prophet taught earlier Muslims, the primary ideologies of Islam. In regards to those fiqhi matters, Imam Ali a.s followed jurisprudence of our religion, even though He was technically not a baligh. So we are supposed to praise a Momin and admire His knowledge, understanding and maturity which helped him learn and follow Islamic jurisprudence at such as earlier age, when He was not even obliged to follow them. That was the time when a mature adult such as Ibn e Abi Qahafa (the known Abu Baqr) was still a non-Muslim, having no clue of religion or it's jurisprudence.

No Imam Ali didnt accept islam He was Muslim in the first place .

The Baaligh argument makes perfect sense since its the reality of Islam whether it came first or last it doesnt matter , he a.s. was still not mukalaf , Islam erases all previous deeds so whoever embraces Islam is a newborn .

contemplate .

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^

But you havn't answered by question, nor contemplated on the implied meaning of your belief.

(salam)

My Belief concerning this subject you mean ?

Like i said I dont Judge anyone of that age period till the time of Imam Ali r.a .

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I can not make some one see something. This is the limit of your "Irfaan". I do not blame you. Some people can see more than you. May be we can see more than you. Otherwise the example of Hazrat Isa (as) is enough for you. But those who have the faith that Prophet (pbuh) did not know till the age of 40 that He (pbuh) did not know that he (pbuh) is a prophet of Allah can not understand this :)

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I can not make some one see something. This is the limit of your "Irfaan". I do not blame you. Some people can see more than you. May be we can see more than you. Otherwise the example of Hazrat Isa (as) is enough for you. But those who have the faith that Prophet (pbuh) did not know till the age of 40 that He (pbuh) did not know that he (pbuh) is a prophet of Allah can not understand this :)

I dont believe that - I believe that Sayidina Mu7ammads Miracles started with his birth and he was a Born prophet PBUH - but your argument in my books is as is .

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Salaam 'Alaikum my Brother in Islam, S@jaad (May Allah Bless You), please inform me of your COMPLETE argument?

Trust me he has no argument, just mixing stories thats all. He gets up and comes to the web, stir a few people and that's it.

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(salam)

ÓõÈúÍóÇäó ÇáøóÐöí ÃóÓúÑóì ÈöÚóÈúÏöåö áóíúáÇð ãøöäó ÇáúãóÓúÌöÏö ÇáúÍóÑóÇãö Åöáóì ÇáúãóÓúÌöÏö ÇáÃóÞúÕóì ÇáøóÐöí ÈóÇÑóßúäóÇ Íóæúáóåõ áöäõÑöíóåõ ãöäú ÂíóÇÊöäóÇ Åöäøóåõ åõæó ÇáÓøóãöíÚõ ÇáÈóÕöíÑõ {1}

[Quran 17:1] Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.

This verse is about the physical ascension (mi-raj) of the Holy Prophet to the highest station in the heaven.

The mi-raj; is usually dated to the 27th night of the month of Rajab in the year before hijrat. While the Holy Prophet finished his night prayers in the house of his cousin, Ummi Hani, the sister of Ali ibn Abu Talib, the angel Jibra-il came to him with the invitation of the Lord of the worlds to have a journey to the highest heaven. Jibrail first took him to the Ka-bah (the Masjid al Haram) and from there he was taken to the farthest masjid in the heavens. Although aqsa means "the farthest" but most of the translators and commentators confuse this word with the name of Masjid al Aqsa in Jerusalem. Farthest is an adjective used to refer to the masjid in the most distant heaven. The distance between the Masjid al Haram and the Masjid al Aqsa in Jerusalem is not more than a few hundred miles which cannot be described as farthest. Moreover, the journey to Jerusalem was meaningless when the divine purpose was to show the Holy Prophet the wonders of the glory of the kingdom of Allah. If Allah had selected an earthly place to do this He could have chosen the Masjid al Hama.

Among the celestial lights, where he received from Allah order for the five daily prayers, he saw his own name together with that of Ali inscribed in the kalimah.

"There is no god save Allah, Muhammad is His Prophet and Ali is His wali."

In the heaven Allah showed him Ali and said:

"O my Prophet Muhammad, I have given you Ali to be your vicegerent and successor. Peace be on you from your Lord, and His grace and His bounties."

Then all the secrets of creation and what happened in the world since its creation and what will take place were disclosed to the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet said:

"Peace from the Lord be on all the righteous servants of Allah, and peace be on all of you (O angels), and His grace and His bounties."

When the Holy Prophet returned to Makka from his journey, before he related his experience, Ali began to give every detail of his journey, which proves that in every single step the Holy Prophet had taken during his journey Ali was with him; and this is the reason on account of which the Holy Prophet said:

"I and Ali are of one and the same light."

In the bygone days ignorance might have prevented people to believe in the physical ascension of the Holy Prophet as the most beloved friend of Allah-habiballah, and his having attained the highest and the subtlest realisation of Allah's being, and seeing Ali face to face in the highest heaven, but there is no ground for the people of this age to deny it in the midst of advancement of science and technology, the step by step awareness of the laws, made by Allah, governing the operation of the universe, with the help of which man is exploring the so far unknown frontiers in the space.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The terms ascension and descension are used to explain the order of creation and the movement of cognitive self through the various spheres of finite beings to the absolute and from there coming down again through the various spheres of abstract and spiritual beings, of more comprehensive nature, to the lowest finite world. This journey is intellectual as well as visual.

The intellectual journey is experienced by all seekers of truth with the help of spiritual faculties, not bound by the physical senses. The visual journey begins from the highest point of the intellectual achievement, using it as a base, and proceeds upwards through the various spheres of the spiritual beings to higher and still higher levels till it reaches the absolute, and again comes down to its base. There was no prophet who did not have this visual experience of ascension and descension, and, as said in al Baqarah: 253, each had it in keeping with his potential, during sleep or wakefulness or in a state in between them, once in a lifetime or often times as the Holy Prophet had done. being the superior-most of them all. Not only the Holy Prophet but also his divinely commissioned successors (the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt) who, in soul and body, were from him and 11e from them, and all of them were of one and the same divine light and origin, had the visual experience of ascension to the absolute many a time,

The Quran in verse 33 of Ar-Rahman says that man can cross the bounds of the heavens and the earth if he possesses the authority and has the power (knowledge of the laws enforced by Allah) to do so. Therefore the theories based on ignorance from the laws made by Allah should not be given any importance when they are put forward to deny not only the physical ascension of the Holy Prophet but also all the miracles wrought by the prophets of Allah and His chosen representatives .

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Salaam 'Alaikum my Brother in Islam, S@jaad (May Allah Bless You), please inform me of your COMPLETE argument?

(salam)

I dont really have an argument - I am just saying that since Imam Ali a.s. was a boy at the time and not baaligh as per Islamic doctrine - then he a.s. cant be compared to adults of the same period . and If they embraced Islam erases previous deeds .

So the whole argument is weak of comparing .

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Guest Zahrah
(salam)

I dont really have an argument - I am just saying that since Imam Ali a.s. was a boy at the time and not baaligh as per Islamic doctrine - then he a.s. cant be compared to adults of the same period . and If they embraced Islam erases previous deeds .

So the whole argument is weak of comparing .

NO. I dont think it is good reason for your claim. what about prophet sawww? he was a mature himself. look how pure and innocent he was. Ma3sumin A were mA3msum from the begining. the comparison is not a fair one, I admit, not bc of the age but bc of the fact that they , whether young or old, are not comparable to anybody. bc they are first rate MA3sumin. the problem is that some people (from the time of saqifah) started this comparing, and broke chests, and aborted children, and set fire on the doors, and usurped haqs.

Edited by Zahrah

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æóÂÊö ÐóÇ ÇáúÞõÑúÈóì ÍóÞøóåõ æóÇáúãöÓúßöíäó æóÇÈúäó ÇáÓøóÈöíáö æóáÇó ÊõÈóÐøöÑú ÊóÈúÐöíÑðÇ {26}

[Quran 17:26] Give the kinsman his due, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and squander not (thy wealth) in wantonness.

Bazaz, Abu Yula, Abu Hatim and Ibn Marduwayh relate on the authority of Abu Sa-id Khudhri that as soon as this verse was revealed the Holy Prophet at once gave the garden of Fadak to his daughter, Bibi Fatimah Zahra.

Ibn Jarir reports that once Imam Ali bin Husayn al Zayn al Abidin said to a Syrian:

"We are the near of kin referred to in this verse."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

As stated above, after the revelation of this verse, the Holy Prophet gave the garden of Fadak to Bibi Fatimah.

Abd ibn Salih, a courtier, had reported that Mamun al Rashid wrote a letter to Abdullah ibn Musa to know his opinion about the issue of Fadak. Ibn Musa quoted the above noted tradition. Then Mamun returned the land of Fadak to the children of Bibi Fatimah. The land the Jews left without a heir was distributed by the Holy Prophet, as commanded by Allah (see Anfal: 1), with the consent of the ansar, among the muhajirin who had abandoned their properties in Makka and were almost living on dole. Many gardens and tracts of land, Bibi Fatimah inherited from her mother, Bibi Khadijah, were in and around Makka. Through this verse Allah directed the Holy Prophet to give Bibi Fatimah her due rights. So he gave her the garden of Fadak in fulfilment of her share as a muhajir and also included his own share in it. During the lifetime of the Holy Prophet the land of Fadak was in the active possession of Bibi Fatimah, but after the departure of the Holy Prophet from this world, the first caliph seized the land. The evidence of Ali, Hasan and Husayn and her own was rejected, notwithstanding their truthfulness made known to the people by Allah through Ali Imran: 61 and Ahzab: 33. Her claim as the inheritor of the Holy Prophet was also rejected. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari inform us that Umar used to point out Ali and Abbas as those who branded him and his predecessor as usurpers and liars in connection with the property of Fadak, and neither Ali nor Abbas ever denied it. Bibi Fatimah, after this incident, never talked to Abu Bakr and Umar, and asked Ali not to allow them to attend her funeral prayers and burial. The confiscated property of Fadak was never used for the well-being of the people nor for the maintenance of the Muslim army.

Every Umayyid ruler treated the garden of Fadak as his personal property, except Umar ibn Abdul Aziz who, after making a thorough examination of the case, returned it to the Ahl ul Bayt. The Abbasi rulers again took it away from the Ahl ul Bayt and used it as their property, till Mamun al Rashid again conducted a thorough inquiry by a special court of jurists before which a follower of the Ahl ul Bayt advocated their case and the state attorney opposed his arguments. At the end Mamun wrote the judgement in the form of a royal edict, awarding the land to the Ahl ul Bayt, summary of which has been recorded by Balazuri in his famous book Futuhul Buldan. Ibn Abi Hadid has also given a brief account of the arguments, for and against, in his commentary of the Nahj al Balagha. Bibi Fatimah herself gave the strongest arguments in her favour in her address to the then ruling party. For full details refer to the "Biography of Bibi Fatimah Zahra", published by Peermahomed Ebrahim Trust.

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NO. I dont think it is good reason for your claim. what about prophet sawww? he was a mature himself. look how pure and innocent he was. Ma3sumin A were mA3msum from the begining. the comparison is not a fair one, I admit, not bc of the age but bc of the fact that they , whether young or old, are not comparable to anybody. bc they are first rate MA3sumin. the problem is that some people (from the time of saqifah) started this comparing, and broke chests, and aborted children, and set fire on the doors, and usurped haqs.

NO ONe is Ma3soom except the Prophet PBUH everyone else made mistakes which can be easily proved .

The fact is that In ISlamic doctrine You are not Mukalaf when you a Child and no matter how hard you try and prove otherwise it just wont work .

NOw for the 110th time can someone here please define the word Baligh or Mukalaf ?

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Guest Zahrah
NO ONe is Ma3soom except the Prophet PBUH everyone else made mistakes which can be easily proved .

proof pls. it is ridiculous (nauzubillah) that Prophet saww says about someone "Ali and I are from the same light" while Prophet SAWW is Ma3sum and the other not.

first you say he was young and immature when Prophet SAWW became a prophet and this is not fair to compare him with shaykhan. then you say ge was not ma3sum as well.

there is the tatheer verse in Qur'an, for whomever it is revelated it means that that person is ma3sum. now:

"ÞÇáÊ ÚÇیÔÉ: ÎÑÌ ÇäøÈøی (Õ) ÛÏÇÉð æ Úáیå ãÑØñ ãÑÍøáñ ãä ÔÚÑò ÇÓæÏó ÝÌÇÁó ÇáÍÓä ÝÃÏÎáå ãÚå Ëãø ÌÇÁ ÇáÍÓیä ÝÂÏÎáå ãÚå Ëãø ÌÇÁÊ ÝÇØãÉ ÝÂÏÎáåÇ Ëãø ÌÇÁ Úáیøñ ÝÂÏÎáå Ëãø ÞÇá: " ÇäøãÇ یÑیÏ Çááå áیÐåÈ Úä˜ã ÇáÑøÌÓ Çåá ÇáÈیÊ æ یØåøјã ÊØåیÑÇð".(2)

"Aisha says: one morning Prophet SAWW., carrying a black, pilose, depicted piece of cloth on his shoulders came out of the house. So Hassan came and he entered him under the cloth. Hossein came, he entered him under the cloth, Fatima came, he entered her as well, and Ali came, he entered him as well. Then he indicated:" Allah wishes only to remove ArRijs (evil deeds and sins, etc) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet SAWW), and to purify you with a thorough purification."

(2)

· Musnad Ibn Abi Shiba; vol.7, p.501

· Sahih Muslim; vol.7, p.130

· The history of the Damascus city; vol.13, p.202

· Ad-dor Al-Mansur; vol.5, p.198

· Fath Al-ghadir; vol.4, p.279

Also:

· Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal; vol.4, p.107; & vol.6, p.304

· At-Tarigh Al-Kabir; vol.2, p.69

· Kitab As-Sunna; p.588

· As-Sunan Al-Kobra (Nesaii); vol. 5, p.112

· Khasa'es Amiralmo'menin (Nesaii); p.49

· Tafsir Al-Tabari; vol.22, p. 9 (2 ways); vol.22, p.10; & vol.22, p.11

· Almo'jam Al-Osat (Tabarani); vol.7, p.318

· Al-Mu'jam (Tabarani); vol.3, p.55 (2 ways), vol.22, p.65; vol.22, p.66; & vol.23, p.334

· Al-Mustadrak ala As-Sahihain; vol.2, p.416; & vol.3, p.147

· The history of the Damascus city; vol.13, p.203; vol.13, p.204; vol.13, p.205; vol.14, p.141; vol.14, p.143; vol.14, p.147; vol.42, p. 98

· Seyr A'lam An-Nabala'; vol. 2, p.122; vol.3, p.254

· Nazm Dorar Almustin; p.239

· Tafsir Ibn Kasir; vol.3, p.492

· Al-Bedayat wa An-Nahayat; vol.8, p.39

· Majma' Az-Zava3ed; vol.9, p.167

· Awarded Jazzman; p.555

· Ahzab At-Ahzab; vol.2, p.258

· Ad-Dor Al-Mansur; vol.5, p.198

· Fath Alqadir; vol.4, p.279

still i've got many other proofs. just tell me to upload them

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very funny. proof pls. how could the one that Prophet SAAWW says in his honor "I and Ali are from the same light" has taken mistakes.

here is proofs for the reverse of what you have said:

"ÞÇáÊ ÚÇíÔÉ: ÎÑÌ ÇäøÈøí (Õ) ÛÏÇÉð æ Úáíå ãÑØñ ãÑÍøáñ ãä ÔÚÑò ÇÓæÏó ÝÌÇÁó ÇáÍÓä ÝÃÏÎáå ãÚå Ëãø ÌÇÁ ÇáÍÓíä ÝÂÏÎáå ãÚå Ëãø ÌÇÁÊ ÝÇØãÉ ÝÂÏÎáåÇ Ëãø ÌÇÁ Úáíñø ÝÂÏÎáå Ëãø ÞÇá: " ÇäøãÇ íÑíÏ Çááå áíÐåÈ Úä˜ã ÇáÑøÌÓ Çåá ÇáÈíÊ æ íØåøјã ÊØåíÑÇð".(2)

"Aisha says: one morning Prophet SAWW., carrying a black, pilose, depicted piece of cloth on his shoulders came out of the house. So Hassan came and he entered him under the cloth. Hossein came, he entered him under the cloth, Fatima came, he entered her as well, and Ali came, he entered him as well. Then he indicated:" Allah wishes only to remove ArRijs (evil deeds and sins, etc) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet SAWW), and to purify you with a thorough purification."

(2)

· Musnad Ibn Abi Shiba; vol.7, p.501

· Sahih Muslim; vol.7, p.130

· The history of the Damascus city; vol.13, p.202

· Ad-dor Al-Mansur; vol.5, p.198

· Fath Al-ghadir; vol.4, p.279

Also:

· Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal; vol.4, p.107; & vol.6, p.304

· At-Tarigh Al-Kabir; vol.2, p.69

· Kitab As-Sunna; p.588

· As-Sunan Al-Kobra (Nesaii); vol. 5, p.112

· Khasa'es Amiralmo'menin (Nesaii); p.49

· Tafsir Al-Tabari; vol.22, p. 9 (2 ways); vol.22, p.10; & vol.22, p.11

· Almo'jam Al-Osat (Tabarani); vol.7, p.318

· Al-Mu'jam (Tabarani); vol.3, p.55 (2 ways), vol.22, p.65; vol.22, p.66; & vol.23, p.334

· Al-Mustadrak ala As-Sahihain; vol.2, p.416; & vol.3, p.147

· The history of the Damascus city; vol.13, p.203; vol.13, p.204; vol.13, p.205; vol.14, p.141; vol.14, p.143; vol.14, p.147; vol.42, p. 98

· Seyr A'lam An-Nabala'; vol. 2, p.122; vol.3, p.254

· Nazm Dorar Almustin; p.239

· Tafsir Ibn Kasir; vol.3, p.492

· Al-Bedayat wa An-Nahayat; vol.8, p.39

· Majma' Az-Zava3ed; vol.9, p.167

· Awarded Jazzman; p.555

· Ahzab At-Ahzab; vol.2, p.258

· Ad-Dor Al-Mansur; vol.5, p.198

· Fath Alqadir; vol.4, p.279

still I've got many other proofs, just inform me.

Ok sis i will let you win on this one .

Cause i respect Ahlulbayt a.s. too much to Judge them .

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Guest Zahrah

æóáیÚáã ÇáøÐیä äÇÝÞæÇ æÞیá áåã ÊÚÇáæÇ Ýی ÓÈیá Çááå Ãæ ÇÏÝÚæÇ ÞÇáæÇ áæ äÚáã ÞÊÇáÇ áÇÊøÈÚäǘã åã áá˜ÝÑ یæãÆÐò ÃÞÑÈ ãäåã ááÅیãÇä یÞæáæä ÈÃÝæÇååã ãøÇ áیÓ Ýی ÞáæÈåã æÇááå ÃÚáã ÈãÇ ی˜Êãæä

And that he might test hypocrites, it was said to them: "Come, fight in the Way of Allah or (at least) defend yourselves." They said: "Had we known the fighting will take place, we would certainly have followed you." They were that day, nearer to disbelief than faith, saying with there mouths what was not in their hearts. And Allah has full knowledge of they conceal.

This Ayah is in the honor of Shaykhan. And the bold underlined part shows the usual mannerism of them.

The most flagrant violence they have committed from God's rule was their forbearing from Amiralmo3menin's caliphate after Prophet SAWW's martyrdom, while on the Qadir occasion both of them gave allegiance to Amiralmo3menin A, shook hand with him and said: excellent! Congratulations! O you, the son of Abi Talib, from morning on, you are my Mawla and the Mawla of any Muslim.

Edited by Zahrah

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æóáíÚáã ÇáøÐíä äÇÝÞæÇ æÞíá áåã ÊÚÇáæÇ Ýí ÓÈíá Çááå Ãæ ÇÏÝÚæÇ ÞÇáæÇ áæ äÚáã ÞÊÇáÇ áÇÊøÈÚäǘã åã áá˜ÝÑ íæãÆÐò ÃÞÑÈ ãäåã ááÅíãÇä íÞæáæä ÈÃÝæÇååã ãøÇ áíÓ Ýí ÞáæÈåã æÇááå ÃÚáã ÈãÇ í˜Êãæä

And that he might test hypocrites, it was said to them: "Come, fight in the Way of Allah or (at least) defend yourselves." They said: "Had we known the fighting will take place, we would certainly have followed you." They were that day, nearer to disbelief than faith, saying with there mouths what was not in their hearts. And Allah has full knowledge of they conceal.

This Ayah is in the honor of Shaykhan. And the bold underlined part shows the usual mannerism of them.

The most flagrant violence they have committed from God's rule was their forbearing from Amiralmo3menin's caliphate after Prophet SAWW's martyrdom, while on the Qadir occasion both of them gave allegiance to Amiralmo3menin A, shook hand with him and said: excellent! Congratulations! O you, the son of Abi Talib, from morning on, you are my Mawla and the Mawla of any Muslim.

I dont think so - its says those who made Nifaaq - as in the people of Madeenah - the First two khalifs were from Makkah not Madeenah .

sorry mate

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Guest Zahrah
I dont think so - its says those who made Nifaaq - as in the people of Madeenah - the First two khalifs were from Makkah not Madeenah .

sorry mate

In the Qadir occasion, Prophet SAWW recites this addressing those who wanted to say allegience to Imam Ali A but, break it later.

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In the Qadir occasion, Prophet SAWW recites this addressing those who wanted to say allegience to Imam Ali A but, break it later.

Nothing was broken sis - the way i see it - what we have to believe in is somewhere between what Sunnis have and Shia have .

Just trying to balance it . but without going Takfeer and La3n and Hate of any sort .

Its not the Trait of sayidina Mu7ammad PBUH nor his Progeny a.s.

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Nothing was broken sis - the way i see it - what we have to believe in is somewhere between what Sunnis have and Shia have .

Just trying to balance it . but without going Takfeer and La3n and Hate of any sort .

Its not the Trait of sayidina Mu7ammad PBUH nor his Progeny a.s.

Why do you think we have to say NO to other God/s before accepting only Allah... La Ilaha Illallah! Tabbarra (showing your hate) is necessary before accepting the good (Tawalla)! You can't be mushrik and Muslim simultaneously! :!!!:

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Why do you think we have to say NO to other God/s before accepting only Allah... La Ilaha Illallah! Tabbarra (showing your hate) is necessary before accepting the good (Tawalla)! You can't be mushrik and Muslim simultaneously! :!!!:

Why are you Comparing the created Never mind how high there rank, to the Creator ?

Show me where the Prophet PBUH taught hate or the Quran for that matter and the ahlulbayt , this is man made hate not obligated to us by Allah SWT .

ISlam has never been about hate .

Prophet Mu7ammad PBUH entered makkah with his head faced to the ground in humbleness and forgave the Ppl of makkah without thinking twice , where is the Tabaara ?

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Guest Zahrah
Why are you Comparing the created Never mind how high there rank, to the Creator ?

Show me where the Prophet PBUH taught hate or the Quran for that matter and the ahlulbayt , this is man made hate not obligated to us by Allah SWT .

ISlam has never been about hate .

Prophet Mu7ammad PBUH entered makkah with his head faced to the ground in humbleness and forgave the Ppl of makkah without thinking twice , where is the Tabaara ?

strange. I think you must read the Qdir Khutbah (sermon) once [more]. if you belive in the creator and his uniqueness and the strange nature of being Mushrik and muwahhid at the same time, and if you belive that Prophet saww is the sameone about whom God said "if you say anything but wahy i will cut your vessal of life"=> so he is Masum and what he says is what God says, then you must chose either way "shiism" or "sunnism" cuz Prophet saww hailed Imam Ali A and his followers, and at the same time la'ned his enemies and their followers.

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strange. I think you must read the Qdir Khutbah (sermon) once [more]. if you belive in the creator and his uniqueness and the strange nature of being Mushrik and muwahhid at the same time, and if you belive that Prophet saww is the sameone about whom God said "if you say anything but wahy i will cut your vessal of life"=> so he is Masum and what he says is what God says, then you must chose either way "shiism" or "sunnism" cuz Prophet saww hailed Imam Ali A and his followers, and at the same time la'ned his enemies and their followers.

What are you talking about ? Did you even read what I said ?

Allah is the creator and Sayidina Mu7ammad SAWAS and the Ahlulbayt a.s. are creation , the prophet hailed Imam ali yes but there would be no Ali wihtout Mu7ammad so why go to who is 3rd in rank ?

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What are you talking about ? Did you even read what I said ?

Allah is the creator and Sayidina Mu7ammad SAWAS and the Ahlulbayt a.s. are creation , the prophet hailed Imam ali yes but there would be no Ali wihtout Mu7ammad so why go to who is 3rd in rank ?

Ya Allah (SWT), you are a dense one aren't you? One is the Divine Power (SWT) from which everything else comes from and depends on, one is the last in a long line of Prophets (S) and the last is an Imam (as) so what has ranking have to do with it?

But, to humour you (because kindness to children and compassion for the mentally retarded is surely a worthy trait) why do you sunnis go to Imam Abu Hanifa, or Malik, or Hanbal, or Shafei? Surely the Prophet (S) is sufficient for you?

And don't give me any of your usual "I'm not a sunni in the normal sense" or "I'm a shia but not like you" spiel or try to claim these Imams only are for jurisprudence, that's rubbish and we both know it. The very foundations of the sunni faith are this Gang Of Four.

Sunni people proudly declare themselves Hanafi, or Hanbali or whatever - wasn't the Prophet (S) and Qura'an sufficient for you people?

ALI

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Ya Allah (SWT), you are a dense one aren't you? One is the Divine Power (SWT) from which everything else comes from and depends on, one is the last in a long line of Prophets (S) and the last is an Imam (as) so what has ranking have to do with it?

But, to humour you (because kindness to children and compassion for the mentally retarded is surely a worthy trait) why do you sunnis go to Imam Abu Hanifa, or Malik, or Hanbal, or Shafei? Surely the Prophet (S) is sufficient for you?

And don't give me any of your usual "I'm not a sunni in the normal sense" or "I'm a shia but not like you" spiel or try to claim these Imams only are for jurisprudence, that's rubbish and we both know it. The very foundations of the sunni faith are this Gang Of Four.

Sunni people proudly declare themselves Hanafi, or Hanbali or whatever - wasn't the Prophet (S) and Qura'an sufficient for you people?

ALI

Rank has everything to do with it , muslims need to get their priorities straight .

1st Allah SWT

2nd Sayidina Mu7ammad SAWAS

Then Imam Ali a.s. and the Ahlulbayt a.s.

Where as we always see shia putting #3 first .

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Rank has everything to do with it , muslims need to get their priorities straight .

1st Allah SWT

2nd Sayidina Mu7ammad SAWAS

Then Imam Ali a.s. and the Ahlulbayt a.s.

Where as we always see shia putting #3 first .

A baseless and frivolous allegation. The reason is again the same because you do not know the status of Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) therefore when we praise Ahlul bait (as), you think that we have risen their status more than Prophet (pbuh) (Nauzbillah). I have told in an other thread that factually your own faith in Hazrat Muhammad (sawaw) is defective.....

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Rank has everything to do with it , muslims need to get their priorities straight .

1st Allah SWT

2nd Sayidina Mu7ammad SAWAS

Then Imam Ali a.s. and the Ahlulbayt a.s.

Where as we always see shia putting #3 first .

Hold the front page, s@jaad has posted something that actually makes sense! He then goes and spoils it with his closing line but I feel some progress has been made generally.

One of the sayings of Imam Ali (as) which is much quoted in shia gatherings goes along the lines of "I am a slave amongst the slaves of Muhammad (S)". Another popular narration from the Prophet (S) is "I am the City Of Knowledge and Ali is it's Gate".

We get to know about our Prophet (S) through his Ahlulbait (as) and it leaves me breathless; if the "slave" of Muhammad (S) is this illustrious and elevated what must the Prophet (S) be like?

Don't get fooled by the propaganda. Shia venerate the personage of the Beloved (S) of Allah (SWT) and believe him to be infallible and created before all else.

ALI

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