Hazrat Ali (as) Versus Shaikhain Before Quran

[HassanKhan 0]

Hassan Khan, please stop either plain lying or at least try to unfuddle the cloud in your brain.

Sahih Bukhari, 57; Companions Of The Prophet:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle . We used to regard Abu Bakr as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman .

Ibn Umar gave his opinion and might be opinions of some other companions

Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

MashAllah

what an humble man Ali bin Abi Talib was

of course he was not an ordinary man, but wants to talk about his greatness

why do you have to take every sunni hadith in a negative way

our version of Ali(ra) is of a man who let his personality and deeds do the talking

unlike the Shia version

who cant stop about how great he was

when I read Bukhari I see real people

can you imagine a person who talk like this

"hey you know I taught Angel Gabriel, and I was the reason Allah made this world, and I am error less"

I connect with these people, because they made mistakes just like me, they were humble and most importantly they were human

but I don't blame you guys

you were brained washed to hate these people at a very young age

I highly doubt you guys curse Iblis more then our Sahabas

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion (in Islam)."

Prophet praised many of the companions like this

where does the Prophet say XYZ is superior and XYZ is inferior

... and countless other similar fabrications manufactured by Saqifa Publications © to bolster the 3 Kings usurpation of Imam Ali's (as) right.

prophet said If you curse someone who is innocent then you will pay for your bad commitment on the day of judgment

mark my word these three caliphs will always be praised by Prophet's Ummah, just like Prophet wanted

whether a small sect of Shiaism like it or not

Now in your first sentence above you asserted both Bukhari and Muslim are 100% authentic - so tell me, why is it you don't consider Abu Bakr superior (naudhobillah) to Imam Ali (as)? Are these hadeeth not enough for you? Or are you a shiah in disguise, planted here to heap more ridicule on the Umari madhab?

is there a consensus among sunnis that Abu Bakr is greater then Ali

No

Walaikum

Dude, born and raised Sunni. Now Shi'a, alhumdulillah. Always taught, EVERYYEAR of islamic school, that the order of great people after Rasulullah (sawaw) was conveniently in the order of their political khulafa: Abu Baker, Umar, Uthman and THEN Imam 'Ali (as).

Wasalaam

I swear to Allah that this is not true

I was never taught that the first three are greater then Ali(ra)

[Kismet110 447]

Ibn Umar gave his opinion and might be opinions of some other companions

MashAllah

what an humble man Ali bin Abi Talib was

of course he was not an ordinary man, but wants to talk about his greatness

why do you have to take every sunni hadith in a negative way

our version of Ali(ra) is of a man who let his personality and deeds do the talking

unlike the Shia version

who cant stop about how great he was

when I read Bukhari I see real people

can you imagine a person who talk like this

"hey you know I taught Angel Gabriel, and I was the reason Allah made this world, and I am error less"

I connect with these people, because they made mistakes just like me, they were humble and most importantly they were human

but I don't blame you guys

you were brained washed to hate these people at a very young age

I highly doubt you guys curse Iblis more then our Sahabas

Prophet praised many of the companions like this

where does the Prophet say XYZ is superior and XYZ is inferior

Slowly but surely the nasibi in you is coming to the fore. That's not a bad thing per se, with the cloak of sunni slipping at least we know what type of specimen we're dealing with here.

Now, let's recap. You claimed Bukhari is 100% accurate. I then posted only a small selection of hadeeth from it (more than happy to post lots more if you like?) that ascertain Abu Bakr is the best of men after the Prophet from various sources. You now change tack and start first with praising Imam Ali (as) for his humbleness but then go at a tangent and start babbling about wholly unrelated matters?

You can't avoid the truth (and can't prove otherwise); your madhab venerates numbers 1, 2 & 3 far more than Imam Ali (as) or the Ahlulbait (as).

We believe in Prophets (S) and Imams (as) who were human but their essence was otherworldy. They looked like us but they weren't like us. We believe they were created from light before the advent of time, THAT'S why we acknowledge not only how great they were but they were also free of mistakes and blemish, as mentioned in the Koran.

And yes, I want to venerate people who show us what Allah (SWT) is to be something special thank you very much. Corrupt greedy, temporal leaders are two a penny compared to the Light (as) of the Imams (as). And shiah are not alone in this view (as you well know), plenty of sunni madhabs hold the same opinion.

And for the record, I wasn't bought up cursing the 3 Stooges, quite the opposite. They are hardly ever mentioned, we concentrate on the treasure trove of Islam, not the garbage collectors.

prophet said If you curse someone who is innocent then you will pay for your bad commitment on the day of judgment

mark my word these three caliphs will always be praised by Prophet's Ummah, just like Prophet wanted

whether a small sect of Shiaism like it or not

Huh? Where have I cursed anyone? Do you not read history beyond your own narrow view? If you did you'd find plenty of unsavoury facts about your Kings from non-shiah sources. Maulana Maudoodi did, (one of the greatest alim's of sunni for those who don't know) and look what you did to him; villified and marginalised (and accused of being a shiah!) because he dared to be honest and say Uthman was a poor and ineffectual leader.

Small sect of shia'ism? You wish! There are probably more shia ithna-asheri in the world then their are followers of any single sunni madhab.

is there a consensus among sunnis that Abu Bakr is greater then Ali

No

I swear to Allah that this is not true

I was never taught that the first three are greater then Ali(ra)

And still you persist in not ONLY telling a blatant lie but also accusing someone you don't even know of being a liar - do you have any shame at all? Did you study with this person who used to be a sunni? I doubt it but you happily label him a liar without any proof?

In our local Umari masjid the priority is thus (I know, I've been there and have sunni acquaintances who regularly frequent this establishment); Umar comes out top, Abu Bakr is close 2nd, Uthman admittedly is a distant 3rd and as for Imam Ali (as)? Shame on 'muslims', he may be your 4th Caliph but you pick the mongrel Muawiyah over him most times and relegate him to an also-ran.

The reason is not just down to nasibi tendencies though. It's distancing themselves from shiah who praise the Ahlulbait (as) from birth to death, a little like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

You dissapoint me Hassan Khan. You carry the name of an Imam (as) and, for a while there, I thought we had someone a cut above the usual riff-raff on here but alas, like most of the others you expose yourself to be living in delusion. The public lying I can take but constantly lying to yourself? That must hurt.

I pray Allah (SWT) guides you towards the Salvation that is the Ahlulbait (as).

ALI

[Abu Tufayl 2,605]

I swear to Allah that this is not true

I was never taught that the first three are greater then Ali(ra)

Salaam

Alhumdulillah. So please don't call me ignorant :blush:

Wasalaam

[HassanKhan 0]

Slowly but surely the nasibi in you is coming to the fore. That's not a bad thing per se, with the cloak of sunni slipping at least we know what type of specimen we're dealing with here.

Thank you for being so respectful

Now, let's recap. You claimed Bukhari is 100% accurate. I then posted only a small selection of hadeeth from it (more than happy to post lots more if you like?) that ascertain Abu Bakr is the best of men after the Prophet from various sources. You now change tack and start first with praising Imam Ali (as) for his humbleness but then go at a tangent and start babbling about wholly unrelated matters?

Narrated Mutarrif bin 'Abdullah: 'Imran bin Husain and I offered the prayer behind Ali bin Abi TAlib. When 'Ali prostrated, he said the Takbir, when he raised his head, he said the Takbir and when he got up for the third Rak'a he said the Takbir. On completion of the prayer Imran took my hand and said, "This (i.e. 'Ali) made me remember the prayer of Muhammad" Or he said, "He led us in a prayer like that of Muhammad." (Book #12, Hadith #753)

Narrated Sahl bin Sad: That he heard the Prophet on the day (of the battle) of Khaibar saying, "I will give the flag to a person at whose hands Allah will grant victory." So, the companions of the Prophet got up, wishing eagerly to see to whom the flag will be given, and everyone of them wished to be given the flag. But the Prophet asked for 'Ali. Someone informed him that he was suffering from eye-trouble. So, he ordered them to bring 'Ali in front of him. Then the Prophet spat in his eyes and his eyes were cured immediately as if he had never any eye-trouble. 'Ali said, "We will fight with them (i.e. infidels) till they become like us (i.e. Muslims)." The Prophet said, "Be patient, till you face them and invite them to Islam and inform them of what Allah has enjoined upon them. By Allah! If a single person embraces Islam at your hands (i.e. through you), that will be better for you than the red camels." (Book #52, Hadith #192)

Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa: Ali remained behind the Prophet during the battle of Khaibar as he way suffering from some eye trouble but then he said, "How should I stay behind Allah's Apostle?" So, he set out till he joined the Prophet. On the eve of the day of the conquest of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle said, "(No doubt) I will give the flag or, tomorrow, a man whom Allah and His Apostle love or who loves Allah and His apostle will take the flag. Allah will bestow victory upon him." Suddenly 'Ali joined us though we were not expecting him. The people said, "Here is 'Ali. "So, Allah's Apostle gave the flag to him and Allah bestowed victory upon him. (Book #52, Hadith #219)

Umar said, "I do not find anyone more suitable for the job than the following persons or group whom Allah's Apostle had been pleased with before he died." Then 'Umar mentioned 'Ali, 'Uthman, AzZubair, Talha, Sad and 'Abdur-Rahman (bin Auf)

Narrated Ubaida: Ali said (to the people of 'Iraq), "Judge as you used to judge, for I hate differences (and I do my best ) till the people unite as one group, or I die as my companions have died." And narrated Sad that the Prophet said to 'Ali, "Will you not be pleased from this that you are to me like Aaron was to Moses?" (Book #57, Hadith #56)

Narrated 'Aisha: Then he (i.e. 'Ali) mentioned their own relationship to Allah's Apostle and their right. Abu Bakr then spoke saying, "By Allah in Whose Hands my life is. I love to do good to the relatives of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own relatives" Abu Bark added: Look at Muhammad through his family (i.e. if you are no good to his family you are not good to him). (Book #57, Hadith #60)

You can't avoid the truth (and can't prove otherwise); your madhab venerates numbers 1, 2 & 3 far more than Imam Ali (as) or the Ahlulbait (as).

when Abu Bakr himself said "By Allah in Whose Hands my life is. I love to do good to the relatives of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own relatives"

it gives us a clear picture thats not the case

again don't tell me what my religion says in this issue

We believe in Prophets (S) and Imams (as) who were human but their essence was otherworldy. They looked like us but they weren't like us. We believe they were created from light before the advent of time, THAT'S why we acknowledge not only how great they were but they were also free of mistakes and blemish, as mentioned in the Koran.

[050:002] In fact, they are surprised because one of their own, (a mortal like themselves), came to them as a warner. The unbelievers said, “That is really odd!”

[054:024] And they said, “Must we follow (the advice of) a mortal being, (just) one man among us? If we did that, we would certainly go astray! (That is) sheer madness!”

[017:093] `Or, thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read.' Say, `Holy is my Lord ! I am but a mortal sent as a Messenger.'

[014:011] Their apostles said to them: We are nothing but mortals like yourselves, but Allah bestows (His) favors on whom He pleases of His servants, and it is not for us that we should bring you an authority except by Allah's permission; and on Allah should the believers rely.

clearly The Prophet are humans and not infallible

just like Jonah and Moses made mistakes

we make mistakes as humans

And yes, I want to venerate people who show us what Allah (SWT) is to be something special thank you very much. Corrupt greedy, temporal leaders are two a penny compared to the Light (as) of the Imams (as). And shiah are not alone in this view (as you well know), plenty of sunni madhabs hold the same opinion.

which sunni school hold this thought that the Prophet was a light before he was born?

And for the record, I wasn't bought up cursing the 3 Stooges, quite the opposite. They are hardly ever mentioned, we concentrate on the treasure trove of Islam, not the garbage collectors.

I was in a Shia School back in Karachi, Pakistan

Habib Public School

I am sure some people here might be familiar with this school

when I was in 6th grade my friend who was Shia(at that time I didn't know) told me about his views on Abu Bakr which were obviously not very pleasant, at that time the only thing I knew about Abu Bakr was that he was a companion

It was clear that my friend knew more about these events then I did back then

Huh? Where have I cursed anyone? Do you not read history beyond your own narrow view? If you did you'd find plenty of unsavoury facts about your Kings from non-shiah sources. Maulana Maudoodi did, (one of the greatest alim's of sunni for those who don't know) and look what you did to him; villified and marginalised (and accused of being a shiah!) because he dared to be honest and say Uthman was a poor and ineffectual leader.

thats weird because apparently I have Maulana Maudoodi five volume Quran tafsir in my book collection

my family is from Jamaat, the party he founded

when did I accuse him of being a shia

Small sect of shia'ism? You wish! There are probably more shia ithna-asheri in the world then their are followers of any single sunni madhab.

NO

And still you persist in not ONLY telling a blatant lie but also accusing someone you don't even know of being a liar - do you have any shame at all? Did you study with this person who used to be a sunni? I doubt it but you happily label him a liar without any proof?

I am being honest

I have been to many mosques

many lectures never heard of anything like that

there is no Sunni consensus on the status of who is superior then who

Allah is my witness

In our local Umari masjid the priority is thus (I know, I've been there and have sunni acquaintances who regularly frequent this establishment); Umar comes out top, Abu Bakr is close 2nd, Uthman admittedly is a distant 3rd and as for Imam Ali (as)? Shame on 'muslims', he may be your 4th Caliph but you pick the mongrel Muawiyah over him most times and relegate him to an also-ran.

let me make it clear to you ever sunni will choose Ali over Muawiyah any day

why is this a complete lie

because Muawiyah is not considered the fifth rightly guided caliph

if he was superior to Ali then surely he should have been the fifth rightly guided

The reason is not just down to nasibi tendencies though. It's distancing themselves from shiah who praise the Ahlulbait (as) from birth to death, a little like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

You dissapoint me Hassan Khan. You carry the name of an Imam (as) and, for a while there, I thought we had someone a cut above the usual riff-raff on here but alas, like most of the others you expose yourself to be living in delusion. The public lying I can take but constantly lying to yourself? That must hurt.

I pray Allah (SWT) guides you towards the Salvation that is the Ahlulbait (as).

ALI

actually thank you for being bluntly honest

it is true that internet shows the real face of people

i had many shia friends

hell I even defended Shaism, just like my father did

my shia teacher was murdered because of his beliefs and that is something i will never forget

I came here because i thought I will have a dialog with Shia on religion

I was not here to debate

in response people called me wahabi, nisabi, and Allah knows what

people cursed my Sahabas, wives of the Prophet whom I consider as my mothers

I tried to keep my cool, but it really impossible to do that, when you are constantly attacked

Salam

[Kismet110 447]

^^^

Hassan Khan, the premise was very simple but instead of a straight answer you start copying and pasting volumes. If you didn't know much about Abu Bakr but your shia friend did that's a personal experience. If the local mosque to me has more to say about the first two than Imam Ali (as) that's a personal experience. If a person (who you called a liar) tells us in Saudi he was taught emphasis was on the 3 that's a personal experience - are you seeing a pattern here?

You quickly quote ayah from Holy Koran but, what about 33:33? Allah (SWT) has purified them a thorough purification so tell me, what mistakes did they make? And yet you claim they did make mistakes, which in turn made them similar to Abu Bakr et al.

You personally may not have labelled Maulana Maudoodi anything but are you now going to deny he was not villified for his assertion about Uthman? Please don't do that, rather do some checking beforehand to save the embarrasment.

As for Imam Ali (as) and Muawiyah (LA), don't even go there. Another personal experience; last year during Muharram, jaloos in Luton (UK). Small group of sunnis 'protesting' against the jaloos - their chants? "Yazid - fil Jannah, Muawiyah - fil Jannah, Abu Bakr - fil Jannah, Umar - fil Jannah" (recorded on DVD and shown on DM Digital, if you don't believe me then I will make an effort to get a recording to you).

I'm sure you don't need me to translate this for you, aside from them acting as distributors of Heaven & Hell why do you think they chanted the above names? In direct opposition to shiah chanting Ya Hussain and Ya Ali. "Yazid fil Jannah"? Ya Allah, how low will sunnis stoop in their hatred and nasibism?

We could go on and on but is there a point? You will stubbornly defend the position that sunnis view them all as equal whereas I and others with first-hand experience will argue you generally elevate the 3 above all others (particularly number 2). Bottom line - shiah elevate the purified above the rabble whereas some people try to lift the rabble to a status they can't attain.

ALI

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáäøóÈöíøõ ÌóÇåöÏö ÇáúßõÝøóÇÑó æóÇáúãõäóÇÝöÞöíäó æóÇÛúáõÙú Úóáóíúåöãú æóãóÃúæóÇåõãú Ìóåóäøóãõ æóÈöÆúÓó ÇáúãóÕöíÑõ {73}

[Pickthal 9:73] O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

The order is to strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites with arms as well as with words and arguments.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Here and in verse 9 of Tahrim the Holy Prophet has been commanded to fight against the hypocrites as was being done against the disbelievers, but no war was waged against the hypocrites during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, nor in the times of the first three rulers. The order did not remain unattended, but was carried out by Ali as the Holy Prophet's true successor in fulfilment of his prophecy that Ali would fight and destroy the nakithin (oath breakers), qasitin (deviators) and mariqin (apostates).

[abbas110 306]

what a beautiful thread

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

æóÇáÓøóÇÈöÞõæäó ÇáÃóæøóáõæäó ãöäó ÇáúãõåóÇÌöÑöíäó æóÇáÃóäÕóÇÑö æóÇáøóÐöíäó ÇÊøóÈóÚõæåõã ÈöÅöÍúÓóÇäò ÑøóÖöíó Çááøåõ Úóäúåõãú æóÑóÖõæÇú Úóäúåõ æóÃóÚóÏøó áóåõãú ÌóäøóÇÊò ÊóÌúÑöí ÊóÍúÊóåóÇ ÇáÃóäúåóÇÑõ ÎóÇáöÏöíäó ÝöíåóÇ ÃóÈóÏðÇ Ðóáößó ÇáúÝóæúÒõ ÇáúÚóÙöíãõ {100}

[Pickthal 9:100] And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph.

This verse clearly proclaims the equality of muhajirs and ansar in general sense. The preference given to one individual over another by Allah or the Holy Prophet was due to the degree of submission to Allah and taqwa (piety). So the argument put forward by Umar bin Khattab at the time of deciding the issue of taking hold of the reins of power in the conference hall of Saqifa bani Sa-ada by reciting this verse without wa after ansar to establish the superiority of muhajirs over ansar (if wa is dropped it means the ansar should obey or follow the muhajirs) was unislamic or contrary to the teachings of the Quran. It is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari that when Obay ibn Ka-ab pointed out this omission Umar replied that he always thought this verse to be a proof of the muhajir's superiority over the ansar.

This verse and other verses like it in praise of the companions of the Holy Prophet, whether muhajirs or ansar, are applicable only to those who were sincere in faith. The hypocrites, who were also "companions" (sahabah) as per its definition laid down by the Muslim scholars, cannot be accepted as those praised by the Quran. So to say that all the companions, even the deserters, were true believers is illogical and contrary to historical facts.

All the commentators unanimously agree that "the first of the foremost" among women was Khadijah, wife of the Holy Prophet, and among men was Ali ibn abi Talib.

Hakim Nayshapuri, in his Mustadrak Alal Sahihayn, writes on page 22 of kitab al Ma-rafat:

"There is no difference of opinion among the historians that Ali ibn abi Talib was the first Muslim."

Ibn Abd al Bar, Qartabi, Suyuti, Tabarani, Bayhaqi and others also have confirmed it.

Please refer to the event of dawat dhil ashirah. Among others refer to Tarikh Tabari vol. 2, page 63, for authenticity of the tradition, according to which Ali was the first Muslim, and his faith was not only accepted by the Holy Prophet but also he was declared by him, whose words were always revelation revealed (Najm: 4), to be his brother, lieutenant and successor-and on that day obedience to him was made obligatory by the Holy Prophet for all the believers. Whosoever raises the issue of his age either does not know that whomsoever Allah wills He makes him His representative even if he is a baby in the cradle (Ali Imran: 46-Isa was a messenger of Allah in the cradle just as he was a messenger of Allah in maturity), or with ulterior motives, wants to introduce some one else as the first Muslim.

The Holy Prophet said:

"Ali prayed with me seven years before the other Muslims. He is the siddiq al akbar (the greatest truthful) and the faruq al azam (the greatest distinguisher of truth from falsehood). Whoso claims either of these titles is a liar."

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ÇÊøóÞõæÇú Çááøåó æóßõæäõæÇú ãóÚó ÇáÕøóÇÏöÞöíäó {119}

[Quran 9:119] O ye who believe! Be careful of your duty to Allah, and be with the truthful.

AI Baqarah: 2 and Ali Imran: 138 clearly say that the Quran is a guidance for the pious, but for all others it is a narration. Verse 177 of al Baqarah and verse 15 of al Hujurat describe the genuinely truthful with whom people have been commanded to remain attached.

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.(Quran 2:177)

Righteousness is this that one should believe:

1. in the unity of Allah with all His attributes;

2. in the last day of judgement;

3. in the angels;

4. in the book of Allah;

5. in all the prophets and messengers of Allah;

6. and give away wealth out of love for Allah to the near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and the beggars, and for the liberation of slaves;

7. and keep up the (obligatory) prayers,

Now Surah Hujraat

The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere. (Quran 49:15)

This verse very clearly says that those who used to have doubts in the prophethood of the Holy Prophet (see commentary of Fat-h: 1) and run away from the battlefields could never be the true faithfuls. The truthfuls have been described in Baqarah: 177 and Bara-at: 119. These qualities in highest degree are found only in the Ahl ul Bayt, who alone should be followed by all muslims as their leaders.

In the light of al Baqarah: 177 and al Hujurat: 15 we come to the conclusion that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the genuinely truthful.

By "the truthful" is meant the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. The authentic books concur in reporting that this verse refers to the Ahl ul Bayt. See Hafiz Abu Nu-aym; Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad; and Ibn Hajar in his Saw-iq al Muhriqah, chap. 11, p. 90.

Fakhruddin al Razi in his Tafsir vol. 16, p. 220 and 221 accepts that only the sinless (ma-sumin)can be the truthful mentioned in this verse, but in order to include his heroes he says that all those who follow the right path are also the truthful. It cannot be, because Allah Himself has thoroughly purified some of His chosen servants (Ahzab: 33) so that other believers may remain attached with them as has been commanded in this verse. If all those who follow the right path are the truthful then who will remain attached with whom?

Polytheism is the worst falsehood. Refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 124 to know that whoso has worshipped a ghayrallah (other then Allah) at any time in his life cannot inherit the imamah bestowed on Ibrahim. Allah had promised to bestow wilayah or imamah on those descendants of Ibrahim who, like Ali ibn abi Talib, had never worshipped any ghayrallah-a karramallahu wajhahu, and only Ali is known as the karramallahu wajhahu, the genuine truthful-and the Imams among the thoroughly purified Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet. No one, therefore, except those mentioned in Ahzab: 33 and Ali Imran: 61, is the truthful.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Aabiss_Shakari

[HassanKhan 0]

^^^

Hassan Khan, the premise was very simple but instead of a straight answer you start copying and pasting volumes. If you didn't know much about Abu Bakr but your shia friend did that's a personal experience. If the local mosque to me has more to say about the first two than Imam Ali (as) that's a personal experience. If a person (who you called a liar) tells us in Saudi he was taught emphasis was on the 3 that's a personal experience - are you seeing a pattern here?

actually its not my personal opinion

My Mom agrees with me

My uncle who is in India, now an Agnostic, said that Sunnis only talk about the first four Caliphs after that its really a mystery for many

Reasons are

whatever happened after that doesn't really have any religious significance, it is more history then a religious epic

Only well known scholars, historians, or people like me just curious to know the history are aware of these events

I can guarantee to you that most sunnis don't know anything about battle of camel

to Sunnis the Quran, life of the Prophet, and his teachings are more important then crying about the historical events which don't effect us at all

we believe in the ultimate justice of Allah, for those who killed and for those who were killed

You quickly quote ayah from Holy Koran but, what about 33:33? Allah (SWT) has purified them a thorough purification so tell me, what mistakes did they make? And yet you claim they did make mistakes, which in turn made them similar to Abu Bakr et al.

first of al it doesn't say Allah purified them, Allah says He only wishes to purify them

[033:033] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey God and His Apostle. And God only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

anyways there are other verses very similar to this verse

[005:006] Oh you who believe! Before you rise for ‘salat’ (for prayers), wash your face and your hands up to your elbows, run your (wet) hands across your head, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. Clean yourself (by bathing) if you are unclean (following a sexual experience). In case you are ill, or on a journey, or if you have been to the toilet, or if you have had (sexual) contact with (your) women and you do not find water to clean yourself, then perform ‘tayyamum’. Find a (rock or a) slab of earth and (after touching it) run your hands over your face and hands. Allah does not want to burden you with inconveniences. Rather, He wants to purify you and complete His blessings upon you. Perhaps, you would be grateful.

does this means everyone can be purified or in other words become infallible

out of the topic but still interesting

why is it that Shia in defence of Imamah is Quran say that, Quran doesn't go into detail about salat, some guy even said where does the Quran talks about Wadu, forget about Quran even talks about tayyamum

[008:011] (Remember) when He caused (a comforting) sleep to come over you in order to give you peace and serenity. He caused water to rain down from the sky to cleanse and purify you, and He rid you of the blight of Shaitan in order to strengthen your heart, and to plant your feet firmly

same situation here

[009:103] Levy the charitable offering from their wealth, thereby purifying and cleansing them. Pray for them! Indeed, your prayers are a source of comfort for them. Allah is all-Hearing, and all-Knowing.

you can apparently make yourself infallible according to this verse

obviously 33:33 doesn't mean to make them error less or infallible

it probably means either forgiving there sins, being born again, but I have no doubt it has anything to do with infallibility

You personally may not have labelled Maulana Maudoodi anything but are you now going to deny he was not vilified for his assertion about Uthman? Please don't do that, rather do some checking beforehand to save the embarrasment.

Uthman(RA) made mistakes when it comes to appointing his own

in fact we know Umar(RA) wanted Ali(RA) to be the leader after him, but that's another topic for another time

As for Imam Ali (as) and Muawiyah (LA), don't even go there. Another personal experience; last year during Muharram, jaloos in Luton (UK). Small group of sunnis 'protesting' against the jaloos - their chants? "Yazid - fil Jannah, Muawiyah - fil Jannah, Abu Bakr - fil Jannah, Umar - fil Jannah" (recorded on DVD and shown on DM Digital, if you don't believe me then I will make an effort to get a recording to you).

yeah saying that he is not considered the fifth rightly guided by the sunnis is a personal experience :angel:

you don't have to show me any recording, I believe you

because I was one of them lolzzzzz

just kidding

anyways

they probably did that because Shia curse the Sahabas and the Wives, that is very personal to a lot of us

and they didn't praise yazid because they believe he was involved in the murder of Hussain(RA)

I'm sure you don't need me to translate this for you, aside from them acting as distributors of Heaven & Hell why do you think they chanted the above names? In direct opposition to shiah chanting Ya Hussain and Ya Ali. "Yazid fil Jannah"? Ya Allah, how low will sunnis stoop in their hatred and nasibism?

they don't hate the ahlal bayt

just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they hate the ahlal bayt

and come on

a person on this forum told me its wajib to curse the Sahabas

we don't organize a mammoth event every year to curse the companions and the wives

it is clear which sect hates blindly

We could go on and on but is there a point? You will stubbornly defend the position that sunnis view them all as equal whereas I and others with first-hand experience will argue you generally elevate the 3 above all others (particularly number 2). Bottom line - shiah elevate the purified above the rabble whereas some people try to lift the rabble to a status they can't attain.

look boy you are Shia and I am a Sunni

I know more about my religion then you do

if that was the case then why other sunnis on the forum aren't correcting me?

look boy you are Shia and I am a Sunni

I know more about my religion then you do

if that was the case then why other sunnis on the forum aren't correcting me?

Edited February 7, 2009 by HassanKhan

[HassanKhan 0]

��� �������� ���������� ������� ����������� ����������������� ��������� ���������� ������������� ��������� �������� ���������� {73}

[Pickthal 9:73] O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

The order is to strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites with arms as well as with words and arguments.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Here and in verse 9 of Tahrim the Holy Prophet has been commanded to fight against the hypocrites as was being done against the disbelievers, but no war was waged against the hypocrites during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, nor in the times of the first three rulers. The order did not remain unattended, but was carried out by Ali as the Holy Prophet's true successor in fulfilment of his prophecy that Ali would fight and destroy the nakithin (oath breakers), qasitin (deviators) and mariqin (apostates).

I hate when people twist the verses of the Quran somehow trying to show that Ali has something to do with this

9:73-74

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. They swear by God that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which God and His Apostle had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), God will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

the verse has everything to do with that time, the time when ayah came to the Prophet

how can you even attribute this to Ali

Edited February 7, 2009 by HassanKhan

[HassanKhan 0]

æóÇáÓøóÇÈöÞõæäó ÇáÃóæøóáõæäó ãöäó ÇáúãõåóÇÌöÑöíäó æóÇáÃóäÕóÇÑö æóÇáøóÐöíäó ÇÊøóÈóÚõæåõã ÈöÅöÍúÓóÇäò ÑøóÖöíó Çááøåõ Úóäúåõãú æóÑóÖõæÇú Úóäúåõ æóÃóÚóÏøó áóåõãú ÌóäøóÇÊò ÊóÌúÑöí ÊóÍúÊóåóÇ ÇáÃóäúåóÇÑõ ÎóÇáöÏöíäó ÝöíåóÇ ÃóÈóÏðÇ Ðóáößó ÇáúÝóæúÒõ ÇáúÚóÙöíãõ {100}

[Pickthal 9:100] And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph.

This verse clearly proclaims the equality of muhajirs and ansar in general sense. The preference given to one individual over another by Allah or the Holy Prophet was due to the degree of submission to Allah and taqwa (piety). So the argument put forward by Umar bin Khattab at the time of deciding the issue of taking hold of the reins of power in the conference hall of Saqifa bani Sa-ada by reciting this verse without wa after ansar to establish the superiority of muhajirs over ansar (if wa is dropped it means the ansar should obey or follow the muhajirs) was unislamic or contrary to the teachings of the Quran. It is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari that when Obay ibn Ka-ab pointed out this omission Umar replied that he always thought this verse to be a proof of the muhajir's superiority over the ansar.

correct me if I am wrong but isn't all the 12 imams from Quryesh aka Mahajir

and aren't they born with the right rule the Islamic world

though I would love to see the refernece of Umar declaring the Muhajir superior

All the commentators unanimously agree that "the first of the foremost" among women was Khadijah, wife of the Holy Prophet, and among men was Ali ibn abi Talib.

Hakim Nayshapuri, in his Mustadrak Alal Sahihayn, writes on page 22 of kitab al Ma-rafat:

"There is no difference of opinion among the historians that Ali ibn abi Talib was the first Muslim."

Ibn Abd al Bar, Qartabi, Suyuti, Tabarani, Bayhaqi and others also have confirmed it.

Please refer to the event of dawat dhil ashirah. Among others refer to Tarikh Tabari vol. 2, page 63, for authenticity of the tradition, according to which Ali was the first Muslim, and his faith was not only accepted by the Holy Prophet but also he was declared by him, whose words were always revelation revealed (Najm: 4), to be his brother, lieutenant and successor-and on that day obedience to him was made obligatory by the Holy Prophet for all the believers. Whosoever raises the issue of his age either does not know that whomsoever Allah wills He makes him His representative even if he is a baby in the cradle (Ali Imran: 46-Isa was a messenger of Allah in the cradle just as he was a messenger of Allah in maturity), or with ulterior motives, wants to introduce some one else as the first Muslim.

No

all sunni believe Abu Bakr was the first grown man to accept Islam, and Ali the first child

[HassanKhan 0]

In the light of al Baqarah: 177 and al Hujurat: 15 we come to the conclusion that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the genuinely truthful.

By "the truthful" is meant the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. The authentic books concur in reporting that this verse refers to the Ahl ul Bayt. See Hafiz Abu Nu-aym; Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad; and Ibn Hajar in his Saw-iq al Muhriqah, chap. 11, p. 90.

Now it doesn't

just writing a five paragraphs with Quran doesn't mean you are parallel to what the Quran says

if the Quran is really talking exclusively about the ahlul bayt in these verses then why didn't it just said it something like

"Ahlul bayt are the most and only truthful humans on earth so follow them, as they are your leaders"

just one verse like this will make everyone a shia

the truth is you need a fallible tafsir to describe the infallible word of Allah otherwise your religion is standing on one leg

be honest to yourself

I don't need a five page long tafsir to describe the word of Allah

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

I hate when people twist the verses of the Quran somehow trying to show that Ali has something to do with this

9:73-74

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. They swear by God that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which God and His Apostle had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), God will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

the verse has everything to do with that time, the time when ayah came to the Prophet

how can you even attribute this to Ali

Can you tell me which battle was fought against Hypocrites by Hazrat Muhammad (sawaw) in his life time. I shall be grateful to you. Read thorowly before replying dear :)

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

correct me if I am wrong but isn't all the 12 imams from Quryesh aka Mahajir

and aren't they born with the right rule the Islamic world

The same argument was put forward by Hazrat Ali (as) to Umer that you claim that Muhajireen are more closer to Prophet (pbuh) then we family of Prophet (pbuh) are further closer to them and we have the right of Khilafah.

Al Tabari records a further, more heated discussion between the two individuals; again the narrator is Abdullah ibne Abbas:

"(Umar) said, "Do you know, Ibn Abbas, what kept your people from [being put] over (Quraysh) after Muhammad's death". I did not want to answer, so I said, "If I do not know then the Commander of the Faithful will tell me". Umar said, "They were unwilling for you to combine the Prophethood and the caliphate, lest you magnify yourselves among your own people and be proud. Quraysh made the choice for themselves; they were right and have been granted success". I said, Commander of the Faithful, if you permit me and not get angry with me, I shall speak". He allowed me to do so, so I said "As for you saying, Commander of the Faithful, that Quraysh have made their choice for themselves and that they were right and have been granted success, if Quraysh had made the same choice for themselves as God did for them, then right would be theirs, unrejected and unenvied. As for your saying that (Quraysh) were averse to the Prophethood and caliphate being ours, God has described one people as being averse and said, "This is because they were averse to what God revealed, so He made their works fruitless'". 'Umar said, "Far from it indeed, Ibn Abbas. I used to hear things about you of which I was reluctant to inquire, lest they bring about your removal from your position with me". I said, "What are they Commander of the Faithful If they are right, they should not [be such as to] remove me from my position with you; if they are false, then someone like me will remove the falsehood from himself". 'Umar said, "I have you saying they have turned (the caliphate) away from you out of envy and injustice". I replied, "When you say out of injustice, Commander of the Faithful, it has already become clear to the ignorant and the thoughtful alike; when you say out of envy, Iblis was envious of Adam, and we are his offspring who are envied". 'Umar said, "Far from it! You hearts Bani Hashim, have refused [to show anything] other than unchanging envy and increasing spite and malice". I replied, "Take it easy Commander of the Faithful; do not deceive the hearts of a people from whom God has removed uncleanness, and whom He has purified completely, as being envious and malicious. The heart of the Messenger of God is one of the hearts of the Banu Hashim".

The History of Tabari, Volume 14, English translation, by G. Rex Smith, p137-138

Quraysh resented the Banu Hashim and their approach to put in place and appoint Hadhrath Abu Bakr was the correct one. Hadhrath Ibn Abbas had quite rightly pointed out that it was not based on Allah (swt)'s selection. One however manages to get a better understanding of Hadhrath Umar's thinking, his attitude that leadership should not continue in one family it was an indication that the aim was to ensure that Imam Ali did not attain the leadership over the Ummah, not that day not ever.

Interesting three ancient historical works record a letter by none other than Mu'awiya that points to the fact that Imam Ali's rights were indeed snatched. The letter was a response to one sent to him by Hadhrath Muhammad bin 'Abu Bakr who criticized Mu'awiya's policy of opposition towards Imam 'Ali stating it was unjust to oppose a man so superior. He justified his position by referring to the acts of his predecessors:

"We and your father used during the lifetime of the Prophet used to consider the right of Ibn Abi Talib binding upon us, and his excellence was well above ours. Despite this when Allah chose for the Prophet what he had in store for him?He took him to Himself. Then your father and his Faruq were the first to snatch it and oppose him, they both worked together on this?If it was injustice, then your father founded it and we are his partners. We followed his guidance and imitated his action".

Waq'at Siffin by Minqari p118-120 (Cairo edition 1962); Ansab al Ashraf by Baladhuri Volume 2 page 393-397 (Beirut edition 1974); Masudi Muruj ud Dhuhab Vol 3 page 197 - 201 (Beirut 1969 edition)

though I would love to see the refernece of Umar declaring the Muhajir superior

"Baladhuri, Ansab 1, 582, cites the speech of Abu Bakr which shows how he argued against the Ansar. He states: "We are the first people to accept Islam. We are in the Center among the Muslims with respect to our position, and we are the noblest with respect to our lineage, and we are the nearest to the Messenger of God in relationship. You are our brethren in Islam and our partners in religion...The Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraysh...You had not better compete with your Muhajirun brethren for what God has decreed for them".

The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193, footnote 1343, English translation by Ismail Poonawalla

Abu Bakar said "the first on earth to worship Allah and were the patrons and the clan of the Prophet who tolerated and suffered with him and adversities and injuries inflicted upon them by their own folk who disbelieved them and all other people opposed them and alienated them".

Tarikh al Tabari Vol 3, p 219 quoted from 'On the political system of the Islamic State' by Muhammad S. El-Awa, p 30

What happens next is a proposed compromise by Hubab i.e. that there be two Khalifa, one from the Ansar the other from the Quraysh 1 Hadhrath Umar immediately rejected the proposal:

History of Tabari, English translation, Volume 9 p 194

"How preposterous! Two swords cannot be accommodated in one sheath. By God the Arabs will never accept your rule since their Prophet is not from you, but they will not reject the rule of one from whom is their Prophet. If anyone refuses our authority, we will [produce] a clear rebuttal and an evident proof. Who would dispute us with regard to Muhammad's authority and rule except the falsely guided one, or the erring one, or the one damned when we are his close associates and kinsfolk".

History of Tabari, English translation, p 194 see footnote 1347 quoted Tabari Vol 1 p 1841

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

ÃóßóÇäó áöáäøóÇÓö ÚóÌóÈðÇ Ãóäú ÃóæúÍóíúäóÇ Åöáóì ÑóÌõáò ãøöäúåõãú Ãóäú ÃóäÐöÑö ÇáäøóÇÓó æóÈóÔøöÑö ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú Ãóäøó áóåõãú ÞóÏóãó ÕöÏúÞò ÚöäÏó ÑóÈøöåöãú ÞóÇáó ÇáúßóÇÝöÑõæäó Åöäøó åóÜÐóÇ áóÓóÇÍöÑñ ãøõÈöíäñ {2}

[Quran 10:2] Is it a wonder for mankind that We have inspired a man among them, saying: Warn mankind and bring unto those who believe the good tidings that they have a sure footing with their Lord? The disbelievers say: Lo! this is a mere wizard.

Rajul (man) refers to the Holy Prophet- neither a god-incarnate, nor a demi-god. The pagans of Arabia, like the pagans elsewhere, had no conception of prophethood and revelation at all. They would understand incarnation (God becoming man) or believe in any heavenly agency (angels), but it was beyond their comprehension that a human being like them could be the messenger of Allah. They misjudged the fact of messengership by attributing it to magic and sorcery.

"Those who believe" refers to Ali, Khadijah and Abu Talib who were the first and the foremost believers in Allah and in the divine mission of the Holy Prophet. The Quran does not praise or condemn any individual by mentioning his or her name, but refers to the praiseworthy merits or condemnable evils so that any such verse may be applied to any person according to the degree of merit or evil described therein, in order that every one should try to own goodness and avoid evil.

Ibn Marduwayh reports on the authority of Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari that this verse was revealed as a special reference to Ali ibn abi Talib. Also refer to Tafsir Burhan vol. 2, p. 177 and Tafsir Qartabi vol. 5, p. 3145.

Qadama sidq (a firm footing), which also implies "great grace", refers to the authority of intercession the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt possess, given to them by Allah, to obtain forgiveness from Allah for the believers as mentioned in Quran 2:48

And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped. (Quran 2:48)

There are several such verses in the Quran which prove untrue the theory of non-availability of intercession propagated by a misguided school of thought among the Muslims.

The Holy Prophet and the thoroughly purified Imams (Ahzab: 33) are those upon whom Allah has bestowed (an-amta alayhim - Fatihah :7) the power of intercession.

The word shafa (to pair or to join a thing to its like) is the root of shafa-at, which means intercession. It can be favourable or unfavourable, as per verse 85 of al Nisa. It signifies the loving attachment of a person with his ideal or model whom he follows. On the day of judgement the wicked and the virtuous will be separated, therefore, it will be a day of pairing of the souls according to their affinity and attachment in this world - "remember the day when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader)", says verse 71 of Bani Israil.

The inadmissibility of intercession here is in the case of those who not only do not avoid evil but make a choice of wickedness as their mode of life; which is the direct result of their wilful rejection of the path of the thoroughly purified, adherence to whose guidance would have saved them from eternal damnation.

It is this despair of the non-availability of Allah's mercy which had compelled the founders of the Christian Church to invent the doctrine of atonement - God, in order to pardon man, in spite of His justice, incarnated Himself into the form a begotten son, called Jesus, and then got Himself killed so that the price of the sins of man be paid. This unreasonable idea of redemption gives man licence to sin as and when he likes.

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

Þõáú åóáú ãöä ÔõÑóßóÂÆößõã ãøóä íóåúÏöí Åöáóì ÇáúÍóÞøö Þõáö Çááøåõ íóåúÏöí áöáúÍóÞøö ÃóÝóãóä íóåúÏöí Åöáóì ÇáúÍóÞøö ÃóÍóÞøõ Ãóä íõÊøóÈóÚó Ãóãøóä áÇøó íóåöÏøöíó ÅöáÇøó Ãóä íõåúÏóì ÝóãóÇ áóßõãú ßóíúÝó ÊóÍúßõãõæäó {35}

[Pickthal 10:35] Say: Is there of your partners (whom ye ascribe unto Allah) one that leadeth to the Truth? Say: Allah leadeth to the Truth. Is He Who leadeth to the Truth more deserving that He should be followed, or he who findeth not the way unless he (himself) be guided. What aileth you? How judge ye?

The questions asked in this verse contain the following answers:

Only those, guided by the divine guidance bestowed on them, and are not therefore in need of any guidance whatsoever from any agency other than Allah, are the true guides who should be followed. As stated in Aqa Mahdi Puya's note in the commentary, of al Baqarah: 78 the Holy Prophet is the perfect example of such a guide. In view of the Holy Prophet's saying: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate", Ali enjoys the same status. The source of his unique wisdom (glimpses of which are found in the Nahj al Balagha) was either the divine endowment or his constant companionship with the Holy Prophet. Likewise every one of the holy Imams from among the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet was a guide for mankind. Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said that the guides referred to in this verse are the twelve holy Imams from among the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet, whom Allah has thoroughly purified (Ahzab: 33). All other claimants are impostors.

Allah has made available to mankind the guidance and the guides. There is no compulsion in the matter of faith as has been made clear in verse 3 of Ad Dahr:

"Verily we have shown him the (right) path that he may either be grateful (accept it) or ungrateful (reject it)."

If guided by this verse, the Muslims can never accept the immah or wilayah of any other than Ali ibn abi Talib, as the true successor of the Holy Prophet.

Jalal al Din al Suyuti, in Tarikh al Khulafa, says:

(1) Ahmad ibn Hanbal says: "There has not come down to us regarding the merits of anyone of the companions of the Holy Prophet what has been transmitted concerning Ali."

(2) Ibn Asakir from Ibn Abbas says: "There has not been revealed in the book of Allah, the Quran, regarding any one what has been revealed concerning Ali and that 300 verses have been revealed concerning Ali."

(3) Tabarani and Ibn Abi Hatim relate from Ibn Abbas that he said: "Allah never revealed the words 'O True believers' but Ali was understood to be the lord and chief of them, and verily Allah has reproved the various people but has never mentioned Ali save with approval."

(4) Tirmidhi, Nisa-i and Ibn Maja relate from Habshi Bin Junada that the Holy Prophet said: "Ali is part of me and I am part of Ali."

(5) Tabarani relates in Awsat that Ummi Salmah narrated: 'I heard the Holy Prophet say: "Ali is with Quran and Quran is with Ali, they shall not be separated until they arrive at the fountain of Kawthar in paradise."

(6) Tabarani relates in Awsat from Jabir bin Abdullah that the Holy Prophet said, "The people are of various stocks but I and Ali are of one stock."

(7) Ibn Sad records on the authority of Ali that he said: "By Allah a verse of the Quran was never revealed but I know for what it was revealed, where it was revealed, and for whom it was revealed, because my Lord has given unto me a wise heart and an eloquent tongue."

(8) Ibn Sad and others relate on the authority of Abu Tufayl that Ali said: "Ask me regarding the book of Allah, for verily there is not a verse but I know whether it was revealed by night or by day, in the plains or on the mountains."

(9) Tirmidhi and Al-Hakim relate from Ali that the Holy Prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate."

(10) Tabarani relates from Ummi Salmah that the Holy Prophet said: "He who loves Ali verily loves me, and he who hates Ali verily hates me, and he who hates me, verily hates Allah."

(11) Abu Yula and Al-Bazzaz relate from Sad bin Abi Waqqas that the Holy Prophet said: "He who grieves Ali, grieves me."

(12) Ahmad relates and Al-Hakim confirms it on the authority of Ummi Salmah, who narrated: "I heard the Holy Prophet say: 'verily he who reviles Ali, reviles me.'

(13) Sad Ibn Al-Musayyib says that Umar bin Khattab used to pray to Allah to save him from a perplexing case for which Abul Hasan (Ali) was not present to decide, and that Umar said: "None of the companions used to throw the challenge "Ask me" except Ali."

(14) Tabarani says in the Awsat that Ibn Abbas said: "Ali possessed 18 eminent qualities which belonged to no other of the people."

( 15) The two Shaykhs (Bukhari and Muslim) relate on the authority of Sad bin Abi Waqqas that the Holy Prophet left Ali bin Abi Talib behind him as his vicegerent during the expedition to Tabuk, and Ali said: "O Prophet of Allah, do you leave me behind, among the women and children?" He replied: "Are you not content to be to me in the relation of Harun to Musa save that there shall be no prophet after me?"

Please refer to the commentary of al Ma-idah: 67 to know about the open and clear declaration of the imamah and wilayah of Ali ibn abu Talib by the Holy Prophet under the command of Allah, after which there remains no excuse to accept and follow any other guide after the Holy Prophet.

All men have to obey Allah alone, but Allah has not created all men as believers. Most of them are beguiled by Shaytan. Verse 2 of Ankabut clearly says that whosoever professes belief shall be tried and tested. Verse 2 of al Mulk says that Allah created life and death in order to try and test mankind to see who of them are best by way of deeds. So the divine plan is to make available guidance and guides to mankind in the life of this world and give them freedom of choice in order to test and try the true mettle of each and every individual. It is every person's own responsibility to find out the true guidance and guides by making use of his or her knowledge, observation and intelligence, because there is no compulsion in religion (Baqarah: 256). Those who hold fast to the rope of Allah (the thoroughly purified Ahl ul Bayt) make a correct judgment and follow the right path (see commentary of Ali Imran: 103).

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Allah invites man to accept His creative authority. As soon as man does so he has to follow and obey His legislative authority which implies obedience to His messenger, and in his absence, to the divinely appointed Imam (al Ma-idah: 55), and to the institution of "ijtihad and taqlid' based upon the teachings of the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. In her address to the then ruling authority, Bibi Fatimah had pointed out and established the necessity of prophethood and imamat on the basis of this verse (refer to the Biography of Bibi Fatimah, published by this Trust). The authority to administer the affairs of mankind should be vested in a person who is divinely endowed to guide people to the truth, and not in a person who cannot distinguish between right and wrong or between good and evil (Ali Imran: 101 to 115).

Imam Jafar bin Muhammad al Sadiq had rejected the theory of Mutazilites (that khilafah should be elected by adult franchise) by quoting the Holy Prophet (who said):

"Whoever draws the sword and calls people to obey him while there is a more learned man among the Muslims than he, is a straying impostor."

This verse and verse 24 of Zukhruf prove that one should always follow the guidance of the best and the most learned authority-the basis of the doctrine of "ijtihad and taqlid".

[sed_a_L_i 0]

if the Quran is really talking exclusively about the ahlul bayt in these verses then why didn't it just said it something like

"Ahlul bayt are the most and only truthful humans on earth so follow them, as they are your leaders"

• You cannot force others to bear the burden of your Nasibi disease of literalism.
  
• Quran never takes names of personalities rather it explains the concept behind choosing the personalities.
  
• Nawasib can change the names of personalities but concepts can't be changed, because Quran is already been interpreted by the holy Prophet (S).
  

The Word of Prophet (S) is the Word of Allah:

"By the Star when it sets, Your comrade does not err nor is deceived; He does not speak out of his own desire. He speaks nothing but revelation" -- Quran Surah al Najm verses 1-4

The verse testifies clearly that the holy Prophet (S) speaks nothing but revelation; anything he says is inspired from Allah (swt). The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Verily, I am leaving behind two wightly things (Thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God (kitabullah) and my kindred (itrati), my household (Ahlul bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al­ Kawthar on the Judgement's Day)." -- a parallel (mutawatir) narration

just one verse like this will make everyone a shia

You are supposed to be Nasibi otherwise its not hard for Allah to turn all humanity into believers :lol: and Allah (swt) will put the love of Ahlul bayt (as) in the hearts of those whom He loves, and those whom He guides.

the truth is you need a fallible tafsir to describe the infallible word of Allah otherwise your religion is standing on one leg

be honest to yourself

Only Infallibles can give a correct interpretation of Infallible word of Allah, commentators of Quran also base their explanation and interpretation of the verses on ahadith of the infallibles namely the holy Prophet and his Ahlul bayt (as), rather than giving their personal opinions. Nasibi literalists however follow the foot steps of their Khawarij forefathers and as I said no one can bear the burden of their literalism and misguidance.

[HassanKhan 0]

Can you tell me which battle was fought against Hypocrites by Hazrat Muhammad (sawaw) in his life time. I shall be grateful to you. Read thorowly before replying dear :)

where does the verse say engage a battle against the hypocrites

if you mean "strive hard" means war or battle then you are way off

because striving does not mean fighting at all

[HassanKhan 0]

The same argument was put forward by Hazrat Ali (as) to Umer that you claim that Muhajireen are more closer to Prophet (pbuh) then we family of Prophet (pbuh) are further closer to them and we have the right of Khilafah.

what claim

lolzzz I didn't claim Muhajireen are closer to the Prophet

this is what I said

correct me if I am wrong but isn't all the 12 imams from Quryesh aka Mahajir

and aren't they born with the right rule the Islamic world

edited

if your 12 imams are all from Quryesh then how the hell can you take the side of the Ansars, did your theology gave them leadership

NO

its like

a man is accusing the other men of being a drunkard, when he himself got drunk last night

[Note from Mod: Name-calling and insulting members is against the rules]

Edited February 9, 2009 by SpIzo

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

ÃóáÇ Åöäøó ÃóæúáöíóÇÁ Çááøåö áÇó ÎóæúÝñ Úóáóíúåöãú æóáÇó åõãú íóÍúÒóäõæäó {62}

[Pickthal 10:62] Lo! verily the friends of Allah are (those) on whom fear (cometh) not, nor do they grieve?

According to Ali ibn abi Talib the twelve holy Imams are the awliya-Allah, and also those who sincerely follow them.

The Holy Prophet said:

The friends of Allah are those who reflect His attributes in their character. Their devotion to Allah and godliness inspire others to create in them the same spirit of submission to the Lord.

At all hours they remember Allah.

Their every action is a lesson.

Whatever they say is based upon wisdom.

Among men they are a blessing of Allah.

They are restless with the fear of Allah, lest any action of theirs may attract the wrath of Allah.

They eagerly await to receive the blessings of Allah in this life and in the hereafter; so they always do good to others and safeguard themselves against evil.

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir found the following in the book of his father concerning awliya-Allah:

No fear frightens them. nor any sorrow grieves them.

They carry out all the prescribed duties and avail themselves of only that which is made lawful by Allah.

They abstain from all unlawful things and deeds.

They follow the sunnah of the Holy Prophet.

By nature and habit they forsake the material pleasures.

They neither take pride in nor boast about their possessions.

What Allah has given them they spend in the way of Allah, as He wills, not as they will.

Once the Holy Prophet put his hand on the shoulder of Ali and said; "Behold! This is the wali-Allah. Be his friend."

If the description of a true friend of Allah is kept in mind, it will serve as guidance to every Muslim so that he may not go astray from the right path, and all the Muslims may live together in an ideal society and set an example for the whole world.

"For the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve" makes it clear that those who were frightened by the pursuing enemy or ran away from the battlefields can, under no circumstances, be the awliya-Allah.

[Guest Zahrah]

My favourite

æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä

"Stop them they shall be questioned"

Ibn Hajar records in Sawa'eq Al-muhriqah page 89

Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Çä ÇáäÈí (Õ) ÞÇá : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí

Narrated by the Abi sa'ed Al-khidri :

The prophet (pbuh) said "stop they shall be questioned " , they shall be questioned regarding the wilayah (mastery) of Ali (as)

A sunni scholar admits in his own words

Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä :

æÃæáì åÐå ÇáÃÞæÇá Ãä ÇáÓÄÇá Úä ÇáÚÞÇíÏ æÇáÇÚãÇá æÑÃÓ Ðáß áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå æãä ÃÌáå æáÇíÉ Úáí) .

Al-Aloosi in his tafseer says after mentioning a number of reasons for this verse

"Regarding his saying may he be exalted, "stop them they shall be questioned", and the most suited of these sayings is that the questioning is regarding the doctorines and the deeds , and on top of them "La Illah illa Alalh", and the most best and meaningfull is that it's regarding the wilayah of Ali (as) "

Abu na3eem in huliyat Al-awliwaa

ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáãÙÝÑ ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáØíÈ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÞÇÓã ÇáÈÒÇÒ ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäí ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÇáÍßã ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓíä Èä äÕÑ Èä ãÒÇÍã ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÞÇÓã Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÛÝÇÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÇÍæÕ ¡ Úä ãÛíÑÉ ¡ Úä ÇáÔÚÈí ¡ Úä ÅÈä ÚÈÇÓ Ýí Þæáå ÚÒ æÌá : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ¡ ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ

Narrated that Ibn Abbas said

"stop they shall be questioned" regading the wilayah of Ali (as)

More chains from Al-hakem Al-Haskani's shawhed Al-tanzeel volume 2 page 160

785 - ÃÈæ ÇáäÖÑ ÇáÚíÇÔí Ýí ÊÝÓíÑå ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ Úáí Èä ãÍãÏ . ÞÇá : ÍÏËäí ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä íÍíì Úä ÇáåíËã Èä ÃÈí ãÓÑæÞ ¡ Úä ÌäÏá Èä æÇáÞ ÇáÊÛáÈí . Úä ãäÏá ÇáÚäÒí íÑÝÚå Åáì ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí .

786 - ÚÈíÏ Çááå Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÚÇÆÔí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ãÓáã Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ÇáÝÑÇåíÏí æÞíÓ Èä ÍÝÕ ÇáÏÇÑãí ÞÇáÇ : ÍÏËäÇ ÚíÓì Èä ãíãæä ¡ Úä ÃÈí åÇÑæä ÇáÚÈÏí : Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Ýí Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä ÅãÇãÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

787 - ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÇßã ÇáæÇáÏ ÃÈæ ãÍãÏ ÑÍãå Çááå . ÞÇá : ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÚãÑÈä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÚËãÇä ÈÈÛÏÇÏ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓíä Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÝíÑ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÝÑÇÊ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÍãÇäí ¡ Úä ÞíÓ Úä ÃÈí åÇÑæä : Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

- ÍÏËäÇ ÚËãÇä Èä ÓÚíÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáãÑæÒí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÒíÏ Èä ÎÑÔÉ ÇáÇÕÈåÇäí . ÞÇá : æÍÏËäÇ íÍíì Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÍãÇäí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÞíÓ Èä ÇáÑÈíÚ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åÇÑæä ÇáÚÈÏí Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæá Çááå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÊå .

788 - ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãÇä ÇáÓáãí ÅãáÇÁÇ ¡ ÃÎÈÑäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ÇáÍÇÝÙ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáÍÓíä Èä ãÍãÏ ÅÈä ÚÝíÑ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÞíÓ ¡ Úä ÚØíÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

789 - ÍÏËäí ÃÈæ ÇáÍÓä ÇáÝÇÑÓí ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáÝæÇÑÓ ÇáÝÖá Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáßÇÊÈ ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÈÍÑ ÇáÑåäí ÈßÑãÇä ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ßÚÈ ÇáÇäÕÇÑí ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãÇä ÍÏËäÇ ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ãæÓì ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÝÖíá ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÚØÇÁ Èä ÇáÓÇÆÈ : Úä ÓÚíÏ Èä ÌÈíÑ ¡ Úä ÅÈä ÚÈÇÓ ÞÇá : ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õ) : ÅÐÇ ßÇä íæã ÇáÞíÇãÉ ÃæÞÝ ÃäÇ æÚáí Úáì ÇáÕÑÇØ ¡ ÝãÇ íãÑ ÈäÇ ÃÍÏ ÅáÇ ÓÃáäÇå Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí ¡ Ýãä ßÇäÊ ãÚå æÅáÇ ÃáÞíäÇå Ýí ÇáäÇÑ ¡ æÐáß Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä .

- æÃÎÈÑäÇ ÃÈæ ÈßÑ ãÍãÏ ÇáÈÛÏÇÏí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäí ÓÚíÏ Èä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ Úáí Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãÇä Èä ãÇÊí ÇáßæÝí ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÇáÍßã ÇáÍÈÑí ÍÏËäÇ ÍÓíä Èä äÕÑ Èä ãÒÇÍã ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÞÇÓã Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÛÝÇÑ Èä ÇáÞÇÓã ÇáÚÌáí ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÇÍæÕ ¡ Úä ãÛíÑÉ : Úä ÇáÔÚÈí Úä ÅÈä ÚÈÇÓ Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ¡ ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

790 - ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáÍÓä ÇáÇåæÇÒí ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÃÈæ ÈßÑ ÇáÈíÖÇæí ÍÏËäÇ Úáí Èä ÇáÚÈÇÓ ÍÏËäÇ ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ÅÓÍÇÞ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÈí ãÑÉ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÇáÒÈíÑ ¡ Úä ÓáíãÇä Èä ÏÇæÏ Èä ÍÓä Èä ÍÓä ¡ Úä ÃÈíå : Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ Ýí Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ¡ ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí æãËáå Úä ÃÈí ÅÓÍÇÞ ÇáÓÈíÚí æÚä ÌÇÈÑ ÇáÌÚÝí Ýí ÇáÔæÇÐ .

Fara'ed Assamtayn for Al-juwani

- ÞÇá : ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÃÈæ ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ÃÈí ÇáÞÇÓã ÇáÕæÝí ¡ äÈà ãÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ÇáÍÇÝÙ ÃäÈà ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÑ ¡ ÃäÈà ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÚÑÇÈ ¡ äÈà ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÍãÇäí ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÞíÓ Èä ÚØíÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå ÚÒ æÌá æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

Can the sunnis present some thing like this from our books about omar and Abu bakr or atl east from their books???

would'nt be better if you translate the arabic ones to english as well. I got the part but I want to know all the parts, this way everybody will know better how much oppressed was Imam Ali A

[Azeri 1]

My favourite

æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä

"Stop them they shall be questioned"

Ibn Hajar records in Sawa'eq Al-muhriqah page 89

Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Çä ÇáäÈí (Õ) ÞÇá : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí

Narrated by the Abi sa'ed Al-khidri :

The prophet (pbuh) said "stop they shall be questioned " , they shall be questioned regarding the wilayah (mastery) of Ali (as)

Narration is false. Ibn Taymiya regarding the same one but from ibn Abbas said: Lie, fabricated in accordance to agreed opinion. (Minhaj 7/143).

I challenge shias, to give a single authentic narration with such text fro our sources.

Abu na3eem in huliyat Al-awliwaa

ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáãÙÝÑ ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáØíÈ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÞÇÓã ÇáÈÒÇÒ ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäí ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÇáÍßã ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓíä Èä äÕÑ Èä ãÒÇÍã ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÞÇÓã Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÛÝÇÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÇáÇÍæÕ ¡ Úä ãÛíÑÉ ¡ Úä ÇáÔÚÈí ¡ Úä ÅÈä ÚÈÇÓ Ýí Þæáå ÚÒ æÌá : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ¡ ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ

Narrated that Ibn Abbas said

"stop they shall be questioned" regading the wilayah of Ali as.gif

Husayn ibn Nasr (áÍÓíä Èä äÕÑ) I found one narrator with such name in Lisanul mizaan #1289, and he's unknown.

Couldn't find Husayn ibn Hakam, and some other narrators. If you claim, it's saheeh give a brief info on each narrator from our books.

785 - ÃÈæ ÇáäÖÑ ÇáÚíÇÔí Ýí ÊÝÓíÑå ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ Úáí Èä ãÍãÏ . ÞÇá : ÍÏËäí ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä íÍíì Úä ÇáåíËã Èä ÃÈí ãÓÑæÞ ¡ Úä ÌäÏá Èä æÇáÞ ÇáÊÛáÈí . Úä ãäÏá ÇáÚäÒí íÑÝÚå Åáì ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí

Mandal (or Mundal) is weak as ibn Hajar said in "Taqreeb".

786 - ÚÈíÏ Çááå Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÚÇÆÔí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ãÓáã Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ÇáÝÑÇåíÏí æÞíÓ Èä ÍÝÕ ÇáÏÇÑãí ÞÇáÇ : ÍÏËäÇ ÚíÓì Èä ãíãæä ¡ Úä ÃÈí åÇÑæä ÇáÚÈÏí : Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Ýí Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä ÅãÇãÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

787 - ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÇßã ÇáæÇáÏ ÃÈæ ãÍãÏ ÑÍãå Çááå . ÞÇá : ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÚãÑÈä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÚËãÇä ÈÈÛÏÇÏ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓíä Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÝíÑ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÝÑÇÊ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÍãÇäí ¡ Úä ÞíÓ Úä ÃÈí åÇÑæä : Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

- ÍÏËäÇ ÚËãÇä Èä ÓÚíÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáãÑæÒí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÒíÏ Èä ÎÑÔÉ ÇáÇÕÈåÇäí . ÞÇá : æÍÏËäÇ íÍíì Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ÇáÍãÇäí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÞíÓ Èä ÇáÑÈíÚ ¡ Úä ÃÈí åÇÑæä ÇáÚÈÏí Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæá Çááå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÊå .

Abu Haroon abandoned. Ibn Muin said he's weak. Ahmad said he's nothing. Ibn Khamaad accused him in lie. (Mizan).

788 - ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãÇä ÇáÓáãí ÅãáÇÁÇ ¡ ÃÎÈÑäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ÇáÍÇÝÙ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáÍÓíä Èä ãÍãÏ ÅÈä ÚÝíÑ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÍãíÏ ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÞíÓ ¡ Úä ÚØíÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä ÞÇá : Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ .

Atiya weak shia with bad memory.

789 - ÍÏËäí ÃÈæ ÇáÍÓä ÇáÝÇÑÓí ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáÝæÇÑÓ ÇáÝÖá Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáßÇÊÈ ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÈÍÑ ÇáÑåäí ÈßÑãÇä ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ßÚÈ ÇáÇäÕÇÑí ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãÇä ÍÏËäÇ ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ãæÓì ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÝÖíá ¡ ÍÏËäÇ ÚØÇÁ Èä ÇáÓÇÆÈ : Úä ÓÚíÏ Èä ÌÈíÑ ¡ Úä ÅÈä ÚÈÇÓ ÞÇá : ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õ) : ÅÐÇ ßÇä íæã ÇáÞíÇãÉ ÃæÞÝ ÃäÇ æÚáí Úáì ÇáÕÑÇØ ¡ ÝãÇ íãÑ ÈäÇ ÃÍÏ ÅáÇ ÓÃáäÇå Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí ¡ Ýãä ßÇäÊ ãÚå æÅáÇ ÃáÞíäÇå Ýí ÇáäÇÑ ¡ æÐáß Þæáå : æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÆæáæä

There is khilaaf in ibn Fudayl. Ata ikhtalaat.

Some other narrators are unknown for me. Enlighten us, if you can on each of them.

Khulasa, just humble request. If you are posting any narration that such and such verse revealed about Ali (r.a), give opinion of ulamah on the narrators.

Ibn Kathir ® said: Nothing revealed in Quran about Ali bi khususa.

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

æóÃóæúÍóíúäóÇ Åöáóì ãõæÓóì æóÃóÎöíåö Ãóä ÊóÈóæøóÁóÇ áöÞóæúãößõãóÇ ÈöãöÕúÑó ÈõíõæÊðÇ æóÇÌúÚóáõæÇú ÈõíõæÊóßõãú ÞöÈúáóÉð æóÃóÞöíãõæÇú ÇáÕøóáÇóÉó æóÈóÔøöÑö ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó {87}

[Pickthal 10:87] And We inspired Moses and his brother, (saying): Appoint houses for your people in Egypt and make your houses oratories, and establish worship. And give good news to the believers.

The followers of Musa had built masjids and prayed therein. Firawn demolished them. Then Allah commanded them to pray in their houses.

Ibn Asakir reports that the Holy Prophet said:

"Allah had allowed no one to stay or sleep in masjid without ghusl, after sleeping with a woman, except Musa and Harun; and likewise only I and Ali are allowed to stay or sleep in the masjid without ghusl in the state of janabat. (Durr al Manthur by Jalal al Din al Suyuti).

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

"Your houses" refers to the houses of ali Harun, the family of Harun-refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 248-the inmates of which were purified by Allah Himself. The same houses have been referred to in verses 35 to 37 of an Nur. The "house" in verse 73 of al Hud and verse 33 of al Ahzab is described as sacred and purified for the worship of Allah.

[karbalah 50]

Narration is false. Ibn Taymiya regarding the same one but from ibn Abbas said: Lie, fabricated in accordance to agreed opinion. (Minhaj 7/143).

I challenge shias, to give a single authentic narration with such text fro our sources.

on the narrators.

Ibn Kathir ® said: Nothing revealed in Quran about Ali bi khususa.

YOUR ALLEGATIONS ARE FALSE,,HERE ARE YOUR SOURCES:

IBN KATHER IS ONE OF THEM.

Ñæì ÇáØÈÑí Ýí ÊÝÓíÑå Úä ÌÇÈÑ ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá : áãÇ äÒáÊ : ( ÝÓÃáæÇ Ãåá ÇáÐßÑ Åä ßäÊã áÇ ÊÚáãæä ) ¡ ÞÇá Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã : äÍä Ãåá ÇáÐßÑ ( 2 ) .

æÝí ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ßËíÑ ÈÓäÏå Úä ÇáÅãÇã ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ãÍãÏ ÇáÈÇÞÑ ¡ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã : äÍä Ãåá ÇáÐßÑ ( 3 ) .

æÃÎÑÌ ÇáÅãÇã ÇáËÚáÈí ãä ãÚäì åÐå ÇáÂíÉ ÇáÂíÉ Ýí ÊÝÓíÑå ÇáßÈíÑ Úä ÌÇÈÑ ÞÇá: áãÇ äÒáÊ åÐå ÇáÂíÉ ÞÇá Úáí: äÍä Ãåá ÇáÐßÑ

æÝí ÇáãÑÇÌÚÇÊ : æåÐÇ åæ ÇáãÃËæÑ Úä ÓÇÆÑ ÃÆãÉ ÇáåÏì ãä Ãåá ÇáÈíÊ ¡

* åÇãÔ *

( 2 ) ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáØÈÑí 17 / 5 . ( 3 ) ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ßËíÑ 2 / 885 . ( * )

Ì 2 - Õ 416

æÞÏ ÃÎÑÌ ÇáÚáÇãÉ ÇáÈÍÑíäí Ýí ÇáÈÇÈ äíÝÇ æÚÔÑíä ÍÏíËÇ ÕÍíÍÇ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÖãæä ( 1 ) .

12 - ÇáÕÇÝÇÊ 24 :

ÞÇá Çááå ÊÚÇáì : ( æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÄæáæä ) .

Ñæì ÇÈä ÍÌÑ ÇáåíËãí Ýí ÕæÇÚÞå : ÃÎÑÌ ÇáÏíáãí Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÇáÎÏÑí : Ãä ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã ÞÇá : ( æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÄæáæä Úä æáÇíÉ Úáí ¡ æßÇä åÐÇ åæ ãÑÇÏ ÇáæÇÍÏí ÈÞæáå : Ñæì Ýí Þæáå ÊÚÇáì : ( æÞÝæåã Åäåã ãÓÄæáæä )

WHY DO YOU LIE?

[Rafidi2020 1]

lolz wow,whys everyone gettin all hyped,this Debate ended ages ago,KHALAS, Ali a.s is superior to all Sahaba,wether a sunni admits it or not,doesint mean anything.

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

lolz wow,whys everyone gettin all hyped,this Debate ended ages ago,KHALAS, Ali a.s is superior to all Sahaba,wether a sunni admits it or not,doesint mean anything.

Yes my brother in faith. I agree that there is no comparison between Ali bin Abi Talib (as) and Shaikhain. Shaikhain are nothing before the great personality of Ali bin Abi talib (as) even not equal to the soil under the feet of my Imam (as). But this thread was made as a challenge to Sunnis to prove Shaikhain superiority over Imam Ali (as). And if they do not succeed then it will ultimately disprove the Khilafah of Shaikhain before Imam Ali (as) and the whole building of "All Sahaba pious" and "Khilafah of Shaikhain" will crumble and fall on the ground like a wall of straws. :)

[HassanKhan 0]

You cannot force others to bear the burden of your Nasibi disease of literalism

nothing to do with literalism

if you can't take the challenge then kindly leave the dialog

Quran never takes names of personalities rather it explains the concept behind choosing the personalities.

are you sure?

when is the last time you read the Quran

[003:144] And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels ? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

[047:002] But as for those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in that which has been revealed to Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - HE removes from them their sins and sets right their affairs.

[*]Nawasib can change the names of personalities but concepts can't be changed, because Quran is already been interpreted by the holy Prophet (S).

[048:029] Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are hard against the disbelievers but tender among themselves. Thou seest them bowing and prostrating themselves in Prayer, seeking Allah's grace and pleasure. Their marks are upon their faces, being the traces of prostrations. This is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is like unto a seed-produce that sends forth its sprout, then makes it strong; it then becomes stout, and stands firm on its stem, delighting the sowers - That HE may cause the disbelievers to boil with rage at the sight of them. Allah has promised, unto those of them, who believe and do good works, forgiveness and a great reward.

[002:087] It was We Who gave Musa the Book (the Torah). Then, after him, We sent down many messengers, one after the other. It was We Who gave Jesus, son of Mary, several undeniable proofs; and it was We Who supported him with the exalted Angels. You behaved arrogantly whenever the messengers brought something your hearts disapproved. You called some of them liars, and even killed a few.

[004:163] We sent the revelation to you, just like We inspired Nooh, and the other prophets after him; (just like) We inspired Ibraheem Ismail, Ishaque, Yaqub and the tribes, Jesus, Ayub, Yunus, Haroon and Sulaiman. We gave Da�ood the book of �Zaboor� (the Psalms).

not only the Quran describe personalities it also gives their names

The Word of Prophet (S) is the Word of Allah:

"By the Star when it sets, Your comrade does not err nor is deceived; He does not speak out of his own desire. He speaks nothing but revelation" -- Quran Surah al Najm verses 1-4

The verse testifies clearly that the holy Prophet (S) speaks nothing but revelation; anything he says is inspired from Allah (swt). The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Verily, I am leaving behind two wightly things (Thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God (kitabullah) and my kindred (itrati), my household (Ahlul bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al� Kawthar on the Judgement's Day)." -- a parallel (mutawatir) narration

this is a weak hadith

the correct version is

I am going to leave with you two heavy burdens. The first of them is the Book of Allah: in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it.� Then he (the Prophet) prompted and induced the Muslims to adhere to the Book of God. Then he said: �And my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household.

about the Quran

Prophet said

The first of them is the Book of Allah: in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it.

about the family

the Prophet said take care of my family

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Hayyan but with this addition:" The Book of Allah contains right guidance, the light, and whoever adheres to it and holds it fast, he is upon right guidance and whosoever deviates from it goes astray.

Sahih Muslim

You are supposed to be Nasibi otherwise its not hard for Allah to turn all humanity into believers :lol:

and Allah (swt) will put the love of Ahlul bayt (as) in the hearts of those whom He loves, and those whom He guides.

Nauzubillah

seriously dude now you have really pissed my off

are you questioning Allah's Might and Power

are saying is "Hard" for Allah to guide me

shame on you

Allah will never Guide those who doubt His Authority

Only Infallibles can give a correct interpretation of Infallible word of Allah, commentators of Quran also base their explanation and interpretation of the verses on ahadith of the infallibles namely the holy Prophet and his Ahlul bayt (as), rather than giving their personal opinions. Nasibi literalists however follow the foot steps of their Khawarij forefathers and as I said no one can bear the burden of their literalism and misguidance.

thats why Shia consider Kitab al-Kafi there most authentic hadith collection book to have full of daif hadiths

thats why you have

Tafsir al-Mizan

Tafsir by Mahdi Puya

Tafsir by Shaykh Tusi

Yes all of them were infallible authors :!!!:

Yes my brother in faith. I agree that there is no comparison between Ali bin Abi Talib (as) and Shaikhain. Shaikhain are nothing before the great personality of Ali bin Abi talib (as) even not equal to the soil under the feet of my Imam (as). But this thread was made as a challenge to Sunnis to prove Shaikhain superiority over Imam Ali (as). And if they do not succeed then it will ultimately disprove the Khilafah of Shaikhain before Imam Ali (as) and the whole building of "All Sahaba pious" and "Khilafah of Shaikhain" will crumble and fall on the ground like a wall of straws. :)

first of all we don't claim our Sahabas were not superior to Ali

so your challenge shows your ignorance of the Sunni faith

Edited February 10, 2009 by HassanKhan

[sed_a_L_i 0]

nothing to do with literalism

if you can't take the challenge then kindly leave the dialog

Salafi literalism plus hypocrisy is what disgraces you with each reply, do you really think you are challenging anything here? go see a shrink dude :lol:

are you sure?

when is the last time you read the Quran

not only the Quran describe personalities it also gives their names

Where's the names of the Copmanions that you worship?

this is a weak hadith

Hadith al Thaqalayn is weak? :!!!: do the Nasibi understand the meaning of Mutawatir?

the correct version is

Perhaps that's the version that suits your Nasibi desires, and is a living example of the Nasibi attitude of hiding, avoiding, discouraging and tampering with parts of Quran and hadith that contradicts their corrupt ideas.

Nauzubillah

seriously dude now you have really pissed my off

Go blow yourself up then :lol:

are you questioning Allah's Might and Power

are saying is "Hard" for Allah to guide me

Astaghfirullah! what the skunk is doing here is trying to answer my question with a similar question.

shame on you

Allah will never Guide those who doubt His Authority

And those who doubt the Authority of His Messenger (S). So shame and damn on you and your second caliph who was the first to question the prophethood of Prophet (S)

thats why Shia consider Kitab al-Kafi there most authentic hadith collection book to have full of daif hadiths

A collector of hadith just collects hadith, his job is not to authenticate them.

thats why you have

Tafsir al-Mizan

Tafsir by Mahdi Puya

Tafsir by Shaykh Tusi

Yes all of them were infallible authors :!!!:

Obviously they base their interpretation on the ahadith of the infallibles (as), so what are you trying to prove here? answer or back off you low life creature! :!!!:

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

ÃóÝóãóä ßóÇäó Úóáóì ÈóíøöäóÉò ãøöä ÑøóÈøöåö æóíóÊúáõæåõ ÔóÇåöÏñ ãøöäúåõ æóãöä ÞóÈúáöåö ßöÊóÇÈõ ãõæÓóì ÅóãóÇãðÇ æóÑóÍúãóÉð ÃõæúáóÜÆößó íõÄúãöäõæäó Èöåö æóãóä íóßúÝõÑú Èöåö ãöäó ÇáÃóÍúÒóÇÈö ÝóÇáäøóÇÑõ ãóæúÚöÏõåõ ÝóáÇó Êóßõ Ýöí ãöÑúíóÉò ãøöäúåõ Åöäøóåõ ÇáúÍóÞøõ ãöä ÑøóÈøößó æóáóÜßöäøó ÃóßúËóÑó ÇáäøóÇÓö áÇó íõÄúãöäõæäó {17}

[Pickthal 11:17] Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.

There are several traditions reported on the authority of Ahl ul Bayt, and also narrated by well-known Muslim scholars like Jalal al Din al Suyuti in Durr al Manthur, Muhammad bin Ahmad Qartabi in Tafsir Qartabi, Sayyid Hashim Bahrayni in Tafsir Burhan, Abd Ali bin Jumah Hawyazi in Tafsir Nur al Thaqalayn, Abu Ali al Tabrasi in Tafsir Majma al Bayan, Abu Ishaq al Thalabi in Tasir al Kabir, and Abu Nu-aym in Hilyatul Awliya that shahid in this verse refers to Ali ibn abi Talib, just as shahid in verse 43 of ar Rad also refers to Imam Ali.

In reply to a question Imam Ali said that in "Is he then (like unto him) who has a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness, from Him, follows him," the Holy Prophet is the divine "bayyanah" and I am the witness, guide and mercy.

Allah has declared Ali to be the Imam who alone testifies the truth about Allah and His Prophet, and like the Holy Prophet who is "mercy unto the world", he is also "mercy'? because both of them are from one and the same divine light, therefore, Ali is the only true successor of the Holy Prophet whom all the Muslims should follow if they have truly and sincerely surrendered themselves to the will of Allah.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

In this verse yatlu means to follow, and to translate it "to recite" is incorrect as there is no mention of anything to be recited. On the contrary a "person" has been mentioned, who is with clear evidence from his Lord. Therefore "to recite" is meaningless. It is clearly said that there is a person who has come with clear evidence from Allah and there is another who immediately follows and bears witness to the truthfulness of the first; and before him the book of Musa had borne witness.

All commentators agree that the person with the clear evidence from Allah is the Holy Prophet.

The person who follows him is next to him, none come between these two.

The Holy Prophet is the first person. His witness is the second person.

The same testimony was borne by the book of Musa before.

Both are "Imam" and "Rahmah" (also refer to Ahqaf: 12).

The witness is Ali ibn abi Talib as has been mentioned by a large number of Muslim scholars mentioned above.

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

æóäóÇÏóì äõæÍñ ÑøóÈøóåõ ÝóÞóÇáó ÑóÈøö Åöäøó ÇÈõäöí ãöäú Ãóåúáöí æóÅöäøó æóÚúÏóßó ÇáúÍóÞøõ æóÃóäÊó ÃóÍúßóãõ ÇáúÍóÇßöãöíäó {45}

[Pickthal 11:45] And Noah cried unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Lo! my son is of my household! Surely Thy promise is the truth and Thou are the Most Just of Judges.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Nuh made this supplication to make it clear for ever that any relationship to the prophets without spiritual excellence does not justify the use of the term "ahl" ul Bayt. It is exclusively restricted to the thoroughly purified (Ahzab: 33) group of the Holy Prophet's household. Relationship by blood or matrimony is not applicable. True reflection of character and spiritual attainment is the basis of the thorough purification.

Although Kanan was his son, Allah says to Nuh that verily he is not of his family, because he was an infidel and did not have the qualities of his father. Birth or ancestry has no value at all. Salman, an outsider, was accepted as one among his Ahl ul Bayt by the Holy Prophet on the basis of his faith and piety. It is well known that Salman was a devout follower of Ali ibn abi Talib. No other companion had achieved such a singular position except Salman. Imam Ali bin Musa ar Rida said: Like the accursed son of Nuh, whoso is of us, but does not obey Allah's commands and follow the sunnah of the Holy Prophet, ceases to be of us; and those who call themselves our followers (Shi-ahs) but do not carry out the commands of Allah and His Prophet are not our Shi-ahs at all. The same rule applies to those who claim to be Sayyids (the descendants of the holy Imams).

[HassanKhan 0]

Salafi literalism plus hypocrisy is what disgraces you with each reply, do you really think you are challenging anything here? go see a shrink dude :lol:

Where's the names of the Copmanions that you worship?

the dancing monkey finally snapped :!!!:

I was expecting this from you

you made a really stupid claim that the Quran doesn't give names it only explains personalities

well I proved you wrong, it also shows you barely read the Quran, cuz I don't expect anyone who is familiar with the Quran to make this retard claim as you did

about me worshiping the Companions

for the record

I don't consider Companions to be infallible

I don't consider Companions to be greater then the Prophet

I don't believe Abu Bakr(RA) taught the angels

I don't believe Caliphs were appointed by Allah just like the angels

I do believe they are mortals, they made mistakes

I don't believe they were present somewhere in the cosmos before the earth was made

I don't believe the earth was made for them

I don't believe they were appointed by Allah, as the Prophets were

so who is worshiping their leaders and who is not stands clear

so keep committing shriek and keep acting like a hypocrite

Hadith al Thaqalayn is weak? :!!!: do the Nasibi understand the meaning of Mutawatir?

Perhaps that's the version that suits your Nasibi desires, and is a living example of the Nasibi attitude of hiding, avoiding, discouraging and tampering with parts of Quran and hadith that contradicts their corrupt ideas.

Go blow yourself up then :lol:

this your counter argument?

its full of [Edited Out]

thats what I have to say

so please come up with constructive argument

Astaghfirullah! what the skunk is doing here is trying to answer my question with a similar question.

this is what you said you piece of [Edited Out]

You are supposed to be Nasibi otherwise its not hard for Allah to turn all humanity into believers

those who doubt His Might will burn in hell fire

And those who doubt the Authority of His Messenger (S). So shame and damn on you and your second caliph who was the first to question the prophethood of Prophet (S)

another ridiculous claim full of [Edited Out]

come up with constructive argument

A collector of hadith just collects hadith, his job is not to authenticate them.

same goes to Suyuti and Tabari and many other sunni hadiths books

many Shia

an example is Aabiss_Shakari in this thread

he is quoting Imam Suyuti, who himself never authenticated his tafsir collections

Suyuti compiled as many narrations as he can for each verse without even giving his opinion or authenticating them

Obviously they base their interpretation on the ahadith of the infallibles (as), so what are you trying to prove here? answer or back off you low life creature! :!!!:

in Al-Mizan tabaeti barely gives references

same goes with Puya

but what I found amusing in your reply is that even hadiths need interpretations lolzzzzzzz

and who is interpreting them?

you fallible Shia scholars

obey your fallible leaders and stay blind

sums up 'sed_a_L_i

[mimran 1]

the dancing monkey finally snapped :!!!:

I was expecting this from you

you made a really stupid claim that the Quran doesn't give names it only explains personalities

well I proved you wrong, it also shows you barely read the Quran, cuz I don't expect anyone who is familiar with the Quran to make this retard claim as you did

about me worshiping the Companions

for the record

I don't consider Companions to be infallible

I don't consider Companions to be greater then the Prophet

I don't believe Abu Bakr(RA) taught the angels

I don't believe Caliphs were appointed by Allah just like the angels

I do believe they are mortals, they made mistakes

I don't believe they were present somewhere in the cosmos before the earth was made

I don't believe the earth was made for them

I don't believe they were appointed by Allah, as the Prophets were

so who is worshiping their leaders and who is not stands clear

so keep committing shriek and keep acting like a hypocrite

this your counter argument?

its full of [Edited Out]

thats what I have to say

so please come up with constructive argument

this is what you said you piece of [Edited Out]

those who doubt His Might will burn in hell fire

another ridiculous claim full of [Edited Out]

come up with constructive argument

same goes to Suyuti and Tabari and many other sunni hadiths books

many Shia

an example is Aabiss_Shakari in this thread

he is quoting Imam Suyuti, who himself never authenticated his tafsir collections

Suyuti compiled as many narrations as he can for each verse without even giving his opinion or authenticating them

in Al-Mizan tabaeti barely gives references

same goes with Puya

but what I found amusing in your reply is that even hadiths need interpretations lolzzzzzzz

and who is interpreting them?

you fallible Shia scholars

obey your fallible leaders and stay blind

sums up 'sed_a_L_i

Hassan Khan, well done, now please go and claim your right to be the grand mufti please, you have won the argument and proven everyone wrong something your ulema haven't been able to achieve for many centuries ..... salute to your knowledge and wisdom.

I am amazed how easily you digged up prophet Muhammad's pbuh name from Quran and these ignorant people were claiming Quran doesnt' mention names, amazing ... truly mind blowing .............. i mean how baseless their claims were ............

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,402]

the dancing monkey finally snapped :!!!:

I was expecting this from you

you made a really stupid claim that the Quran doesn't give names it only explains personalities

well I proved you wrong, it also shows you barely read the Quran, cuz I don't expect anyone who is familiar with the Quran to make this retard claim as you did

about me worshiping the Companions

for the record

I don't consider Companions to be infallible

I don't consider Companions to be greater then the Prophet

I don't believe Abu Bakr(RA) taught the angels

I don't believe Caliphs were appointed by Allah just like the angels

I do believe they are mortals, they made mistakes

I don't believe they were present somewhere in the cosmos before the earth was made

I don't believe the earth was made for them

I don't believe they were appointed by Allah, as the Prophets were

so who is worshiping their leaders and who is not stands clear

so keep committing shriek and keep acting like a hypocrite

Good for admission. But then why those who were fallible occupied the place of an infallible? Were they justified to do so?

this your counter argument?

its full of [Edited Out]

thats what I have to say

so please come up with constructive argument

this is what you said you piece of [Edited Out]

those who doubt His Might will burn in hell fire

another ridiculous claim full of [Edited Out]

come up with constructive argument

same goes to Suyuti and Tabari and many other sunni hadiths books

many Shia

an example is Aabiss_Shakari in this thread

he is quoting Imam Suyuti, who himself never authenticated his tafsir collections

Suyuti compiled as many narrations as he can for each verse without even giving his opinion or authenticating them

in Al-Mizan tabaeti barely gives references

same goes with Puya

Imam Suyuti whole work was unauthentic? This is a general assertion if some of the references contain weak chains please specify them. An assertion of general nature is just nothing.

[javed abbas 0]

Salams,

DEATH OF UMAR

Seeing the face of Umar, Ali said:

"Salutations of God to thee,

Verily, there is no man

Other than this shrouded one,

Whose deeds I envy."

'Usman seeing the face of Umar said:

"Out of us, who can equal Umar?"

Where is the source brother and the verse of Quran.