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Aabiss_Shakari

Hazrat Ali (as) Versus Shaikhain Before Quran

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ãÇ ÃÍÈÈÊ ÇáÅãÇÑÉ ÅáÇ íæãÆÐ

In this other hadeeth, Omar (raa) says, "I never loved to be a leader except on that day."

brother who was the "leader on that day", if it wasnt umar? do you agree that imam ali (as) was favoured more than any other sahaba on that day by the prophet?

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I find it amusing how not being able to open a fort in a short amount of time to be equivalent to retreating. =)

This is the hadeeth:

ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏõ Çááøóåö Èúäõ ãóÓúáóãóÉó ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ÍóÇÊöãñ Úóäú íóÒöíÏó Èúäö ÃóÈöí ÚõÈóíúÏò Úóäú ÓóáóãóÉó ÑóÖöíó Çááøóåõ Úóäúåõ ÞóÇáó ßóÇäó Úóáöíøõ Èúäõ ÃóÈöí ØóÇáöÈò ÑóÖöíó Çááøóåõ Úóäúåõ ÊóÎóáøóÝó Úóäú ÇáäøóÈöíøö Õóáøóì Çááøóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáøóãó Ýöí ÎóíúÈóÑó æóßóÇäó ÑóãöÏðÇ ÝóÞóÇáó ÃóäóÇ ÃóÊóÎóáøóÝõ Úóäú ÇáäøóÈöíøö Õóáøóì Çááøóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáøóãó ÝóáóÍöÞó Èöåö ÝóáóãøóÇ ÈöÊúäóÇ ÇááøóíúáóÉó ÇáøóÊöí ÝõÊöÍóÊú ÞóÇáó áóÃõÚúØöíóäøó ÇáÑøóÇíóÉó ÛóÏðÇ Ãóæú áóíóÃúÎõÐóäøó ÇáÑøóÇíóÉó ÛóÏðÇ ÑóÌõáñ íõÍöÈøõåõ Çááøóåõ æóÑóÓõæáõåõ íõÝúÊóÍõ Úóáóíúåö ÝóäóÍúäõ äóÑúÌõæåóÇ ÝóÞöíáó åóÐóÇ Úóáöíøñ ÝóÃóÚúØóÇåõ ÝóÝõÊöÍó Úóáóíúåö

Notice: ÝóäóÍúäõ äóÑúÌõæåóÇ

Are we to assume that everyone who didn't get the raaya also aren't loved by Allah (swt) and the Prophet (pbuh)? Also, Abu Bakr (raa) was the leader of the army the day before Omar (raa) should we assume the same of him?

I'm glad you accept this saheeh hadeeth, but be aware that your interpretation might be flawed. Especially since there are other hadeeths where the Prophet (pbuh) says that he loves Abu Bakr (raa) and Omar (raa).

Also, after the Prophet (pbuh) spoke about giving the raaya to someone that loves Allah (swt) and His Prophet (pbuh), Abu Huraira (raa) narrated that Omar (raa) said:

ãÇ ÃÍÈÈÊ ÇáÅãÇÑÉ ÅáÇ íæãÆÐ

Narrated by Muslim.

This is clear, to any Sunni that accepts the authentic narrations, that Omar (raa) loves the Prophet (pbuh) and Allah (swt).

brother, no this hadith is not to say that whoever did not get the raaya aren't also loved by Allah, but then we know that Allah loves all of his creation...... Allah hates bad actions and judges the actions of a person but does not have hate for any of His creation. . But, there are some whom Allah loves more than others. These are the ones who love Him more than their own life and strive to overcome their earthly desires seeking only the pleasure of Allah and not the pleasure of self.

That said, this hadith goes to showing the favor of Allah upon Imam Ali (as), that Imam Ali (as) was loved more than the rest of this group, and it even gives the reason, because Imam Ali (as) had a love of Allah and His Rasul (saaws) this again does nto mean all those present hated Rasul, but that Imam Ali (as) love was greater than the rest....

it is simple common sense.

second, just because a shi'i will use a sonni ahadeeth in a debate with a sunni it is because if we were to debate you using our own ahadeeth you would not listen, nor understand because you do not accept our ahadeeth, it is not because we accept your ahadeeth as being actual sahih.... it is because you do.

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brother who was the "leader on that day", if it wasnt umar? do you agree that imam ali as.gif was favoured more than any other sahaba on that day by the prophet?

I agree. Ali (raa) was favored on that day. =)

That said, this hadith goes to showing the favor of Allah upon Imam Ali as.gif, that Imam Ali as.gif was loved more than the rest of this group, and it even gives the reason, because Imam Ali as.gif had a love of Allah and His Rasul (saaws) this again does nto mean all those present hated Rasul, but that Imam Ali as.gif love was greater than the rest....

I agree that this was the case during that one event, but you are speaking as if there aren't any hadeeths that praise Abu Bakr (raa) and Omar (raa).

second, just because a shi'i will use a sonni ahadeeth in a debate with a sunni it is because if we were to debate you using our own ahadeeth you would not listen, nor understand because you do not accept our ahadeeth, it is not because we accept your ahadeeth as being actual sahih.... it is because you do.

I'm very aware of this.

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bro my point is - can you point to a single battle, or indeed any time in the prophets life, where there is a mutually agreed sahih hadith that the prophet specifically praised anyone more than imam ali (as)?

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bro my point is - can you point to a single battle, or indeed any time in the prophets life, where there is a mutually agreed sahih hadith that the prophet specifically praised anyone more than imam ali as.gif?

When you mean mutually agreed between us and you folks? Or just between Sunnis alone?

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I agree. Ali (raa) was favored on that day. =)

I agree that this was the case during that one event, but you are speaking as if there aren't any hadeeths that praise Abu Bakr (raa) and Omar (raa).

now, because your words were thus, and we have agreed to the contents of the hadith being discussed, can you show me a sahih sunni hadeeth that says that Abu Bakr and Omar had a greater love of Allah and His Messenger (saaws) than Imam Ali (as) did? and that because of this greater devotion the were more loved by Allah than Imam Ali (as)?

Edited by Imed14

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now, because your words were thus, and we have agreed to the contents of the hadith being discussed, can you show me a sahih sunni hadeeth that says that Abu Bakr and Omar had a greater love of Allah and His Messenger (saaws) than Imam Ali as.gif did? and that because of this greater devotion the were more loved by Allah than Imam Ali as.gif?

How about this one:

Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã ÈÚË ÚãÑæ Èä ÇáÚÇÕ Úáì ÌíÔ ÐÇÊ ÇáÓáÇÓá ¡ ÞÇá : ÝÃÊíÊå ÝÞáÊ : Ãí ÇáäÇÓ ÃÍÈ Åáíß ¿ ÞÇá : ( ÚÇÆÔÉ ) . ÞáÊ : ãä ÇáÑÌÇá ¿ ÞÇá : ( ÃÈæåÇ ) . ÞáÊ : Ëã ãä ¿ ÞÇá : ( ÚãÑ ) . ÝÚÏ ÑÌÇáÇ ¡ ÝÓßÊ ãÎÇÝÉ Ãä íÌÚáäí Ýí ÂÎÑåã .

öAuthenticated by Al-Bukhari.

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this is the english of the hadith you posted......

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 14:

Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As:

The Prophet deputed me to read the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He said, " 'Aisha." I asked, "Among the men?" He said, "Her father." I said, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men.

but what I am wanting you to bring specifically is........ a situation where Imam Ali (as) Abu Bakr and Omar were all present....... and the Prophet (saaws) said that he is choosing either Abu Bakr or Omar above Imam Ali (as) because of 2 reasons, (has to be both reasons listed) that Abu bakr or Omar had a greater love of Allah and his Rasul (saaws) and that Allah and his Rasul (saaws) loved them more...........

Edited by Imed14

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but what I am wanting you to bring specifically is........ a situation where Imam Ali as.gif Abu Bakr and Omar were all present....... and the Prophet (saaws) said that he is choosing either Abu Bakr or Omar above Imam Ali as.gif because of 2 reasons, (has to be both reasons listed) that Abu bakr or Omar had a greater love of Allah and his Rasul (saaws) and that Allah and his Rasul (saaws) loved them more...........

Why should I? I've already proved that according to us, the Prophet (pbuh) loved A'isha, then Abu Bakr, then Omar (raa). The hadeeth about Khaibar doesn't show that Ali (raa) is more loved than Abu Bakr or Omar. It just shows that Ali (raa) was more preferred on that day.

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I am asking you to bring me a hadith showing this..... it is not a matter of should you, or have to..... it is can you? of course you do not have to it is your descision...... but i am asking if you can.......

if you feel so inclined brother..... if not decline doing so but tell me then that you either decline or are unable to.......

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excellent post bro Imed14

can i also add that the hadith is automatically rejected because it goes against common sense - how could the prophet (pbuh) love them more than maula ali (as) when throughout his life, in every major event, he ALWAYS relied soley on maula ali (as) and not the first 3.

how is that logical? i love people before maula ali but i trust and rely on ali more than anyone else? its nonsense.

not only that but he loves ammi jaan aishah more than any other woman? thats INSANE, bordering on foolish. theres a hadith also from bukhari where the prophet said that he could see the horn of shaytaan coming from aishahs house. would the prophet love someone so much when he saw a part of shaytaan himself coming from her house? the prophet also warned her not to be the woman who the dogs barked at - which they did when she went to war against maula ali. the prophet also was angry with her at least once in his life. the prophet while married to her was also married to other women while, when he was married to bibi khatija (sa) he wasnt married to anyone.

the prophet loves aishah more than any other woman, i can think of 3 straight away from the top of my head who gave the prophet more happiness and security than ammi jaan.

- bibi khatija, his wife

- bibi paak - his daughter

- bibi fatimah binte assad - the woman who raised him, whose janaza he read personally and used his own cloak as her kaffan

Edited by maula dha mallang

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I am asking you to bring me a hadith showing this..... it is not a matter of should you, or have to..... it is can you?

Well, I am not aware of any hadeeths where the Prophet (pbuh) says something like, "Abu Bakr loves Allah and His Prophet and they love him back more than Ali."

Honestly, I don't see why such a specific thing needs to be stated. However, it is very clear, through authentic narrations, that Abu Bakr (raa) is the best of the Ummah after Mohammed (pbuh). If you wanted hadeeths about that, then I will bring those.

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Well, I am not aware of any hadeeths where the Prophet (pbuh) says something like, "Abu Bakr loves Allah and His Prophet and they love him back more than Ali."

Honestly, I don't see why such a specific thing needs to be stated. However, it is very clear, through authentic narrations, that Abu Bakr (raa) is the best of the Ummah after Mohammed (pbuh).[/b] If you wanted hadeeths about that, then I will bring those.

bro why dont you post the hadith which shows abu bakrs "opening speech" when he was elected caliph, where he admits himself that he isnt the best of the ummah or the most knowledgeable, and shaytaan came near him often.

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Abu Bakr's (raa) opinion of himself is one of modesty. The Prophet's (pbuh) opinion of Abu Bakr (raa) is fact.

what is a fact is that abu bakr was not a good judge, not the most knowledgeable in islam, never proved himself worthy in ANY battle in his life, the prophet didnt even inform him of his leaving when imam ali slept in his bed, nor trusted by the prophet with anything of any significance at all.

the only "proofs" you have are only found in sunni books, wheras our proofs are found within all books.

bro how many ayats were revealed in honour of abu bakr, and how many for imam ali? doesnt that tell you everything?

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Well, I am not aware of any hadeeths where the Prophet (pbuh) says something like, "Abu Bakr loves Allah and His Prophet and they love him back more than Ali."

Honestly, I don't see why such a specific thing needs to be stated. However, it is very clear, through authentic narrations, that Abu Bakr (raa) is the best of the Ummah after Mohammed (pbuh). If you wanted hadeeths about that, then I will bring those.

well, I suppose what I am wondering this for is that this was specifically stated many times in reference to Imam Ali (as) we even have the verse of mubahila

"Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our selves and your selves, then let us pray earnestly and bring about the curse of Allah on the liars" (61). Most surely this is the true story, and there is no god but Allah,' and most surely Allah is the Mighty, the Wise (62). But if they turn back then surely Allah knows the mischief makers (63).

where the Prophet (saaws) took Imam Ali (as) as 'himself' many many times Imam Ali (as) was given greater status according to the Prophet (saaws) and Allah (as)......

so it seems to me that the ahadeeth stating that Abu Bakr was 'the best of the ummah' and Omar second, seem to be a direct contradiction to this as well as the events at ghadeer..............unless of course you take Imam Ali (as) station as being above that or higher than that of the ummah.

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bro how many ayats were revealed in honour of abu bakr, and how many for imam ali? doesnt that tell you everything?

According to our sources or yours?

I am not your "bro".

well, I suppose what I am wondering this for is that this was specifically stated many times in reference to Imam Ali as.gif we even have the verse of mubahila

"Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our selves and your selves, then let us pray earnestly and bring about the curse of Allah on the liars" (61). Most surely this is the true story, and there is no god but Allah,' and most surely Allah is the Mighty, the Wise (62). But if they turn back then surely Allah knows the mischief makers (63).

where the Prophet (saaws) took Imam Ali as.gif as 'himself' many many times Imam Ali as.gif was given greater status according to the Prophet (saaws) and Allah as.gif......

so it seems to me that the ahadeeth stating that Abu Bakr was 'the best of the ummah' and Omar second, seem to be a direct contradiction to this as well as the events at ghadeer..............unless of course you take Imam Ali as.gif station as being above that or higher than that of the ummah.

Well, I don't know if you are aware of this, but those hadeeths have been taken into account when judging who is the best in the ummah after the Prophet (pbuh). Of course, all those hadeeths are worth a great deal, however, they don't outweigh those that are in favor of Abu Bakr (raa).

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brother Abdullah,

I believe by saying 'bro' he was affording you respect (it is just short for brother)

it is the american way to say this.......and it is good that he is calling you his brother.,....... as we are all muslims....... this should not be seen as offensive my brother.

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brother Abdullah,

I believe by saying 'bro' he was affording you respect (it is just short for brother)

it is the american way to say this.......and it is good that he is calling you his brother.,....... as we are all muslims....... this should not be seen as offensive my brother.

I am aware of what slang is. =p

However, this person doesn't consider me to be his brother. Isn't the tag under his name enough?

"Resident Wahabbi Vermin Slayer At Your Service"

La wallah, I am not his "bro".

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According to our sources or yours?

I am not your "bro".

Well, I don't know if you are aware of this, but those hadeeths have been taken into account when judging who is the best in the ummah after the Prophet (pbuh). Of course, all those hadeeths are worth a great deal, however, they don't outweigh those that are in favor of Abu Bakr (raa).

how do you know that the status of Imam Ali (as) was in fact taken into consideration? for this one would have to have some kind of empirical knowledge which neither one of us has.......

but to be honest this is just one thought....... just one of those ideas that do come to mind......

however, when you look at the ahadeeth stating the status of Abu Bakr and Omar and how great they were...... still conflicts with verses such as mubahila... why was Abu Bakr or Omar not chosen as the Prophets (sawws) 'himself' they were availible.......

it just seems to me not to make much sense if they were indeed 'better' and those ahadeeth not fabricaitons.........

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According to our sources or yours?

according to everyones. do you deny simple facts? in your defence of abu bakr

I am not your "bro".

no. you are not. even common terms of respect are not suitable for your kind.

Well, I don't know if you are aware of this, but those hadeeths have been taken into account when judging who is the best in the ummah after the Prophet (pbuh). Of course, all those hadeeths are worth a great deal, however, they don't outweigh those that are in favor of Abu Bakr (raa).

you are talking in circles.

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the thing i dont get is that all this arguing, and yet not once, did any of them four Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali! ever say they were better then each other, but you can read loads of sources where they praise each other, so why are we arguin lol when they never claimed to be better then anyone else

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chacha0,

we argue this because we believe that Imam Ali (as) was rightful first calipha and the first of 12 Imams (as) and this is a major difference in reliiogn..... it all goes to arguing for and against Imamate............

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the thing i dont get is that all this arguing, and yet not once, did any of them four Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali! ever say they were better then each other, but you can read loads of sources where they praise each other, so why are we arguin lol when they never claimed to be better then anyone else

imam ali said plenty of times in nahjul balagha that he was the most superior man alive after the prophet. mind you, so did the prophet himself plenty of times.

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but wouldnt it be more beneficial to leave the past where it is, because the sahaba never argued, like when the caliphate was actually made there are different sources, but most of them in the end do accept that all the sahaba accepted the caliphate and got on with their lifes!

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how do you know that the status of Imam Ali as.gif was in fact taken into consideration? for this one would have to have some kind of empirical knowledge which neither one of us has.......

but to be honest this is just one thought....... just one of those ideas that do come to mind......

Well, I happen to believe that the companions would know better than we do since they were there, and they have agreed to the order that I have stated. Also, Ali (raa) doesn't fall far behind. He is either the third or fourth in the ummah. So, it isn't like we completely forget about him.

however, when you look at the ahadeeth stating the status of Abu Bakr and Omar and how great they were...... still conflicts with verses such as mubahila... why was Abu Bakr or Omar not chosen as the Prophets (sawws) 'himself' they were availible.......

Wallahu a'alam, perhaps it was a family thing.

: ( Ýóãóäú ÍóÇÌøóßó Ýöíåö ãöäú ÈóÚúÏö ãóÇ ÌóÇÁóßó ãöäó ÇáúÚöáúãö ÝóÞõáú ÊóÚóÇáóæúÇ äóÏúÚõ ÃóÈúäóÇÁóäóÇ æóÃóÈúäóÇÁóßõãú æóäöÓóÇÁóäóÇ æóäöÓóÇÁóßõãú æóÃóäúÝõÓóäóÇ æóÃóäúÝõÓóßõãú Ëõãøó äóÈúÊóåöáú ÝóäóÌúÚóáú áóÚúäóÉó Çááøóåö Úóáóì ÇáúßóÇÐöÈöíäó ) [ Âá ÚãÑÇä : 61 ] .

according to everyones. do you deny simple facts? in your defence of abu bakr

I don't think I will be able to bring evidences from your sources so I will stop right here.

no. you are not. even common terms of respect are not suitable for your kind.

I have never disrespected you personally since I have joined this forums. To you, I am a kaffir, so let us stop with the hypocracy.

AbuAbdulla why do you still visit this forum after the way people talk to you and insult you?

Good point. I've never turned the other cheek so much in my life.

What a waste of time!

This is going to be my last post. Those that want to get in touch with me, you can do so through PMs and e-mails.

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but wouldnt it be more beneficial to leave the past where it is, because the sahaba never argued, like when the caliphate was actually made there are different sources, but most of them in the end do accept that all the sahaba accepted the caliphate and got on with their lifes!

no, especially during the WARS they had they didnt argue at all.

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Well, I happen to believe that the companions would know better than we do since they were there, and they have agreed to the order that I have stated. Also, Ali (raa) doesn't fall far behind. He is either the third or fourth in the ummah. So, it isn't like we completely forget about him.

i did not accuse of Imam (as) being forgotten, just buried by the sunni..

Wallahu a'alam, perhaps it was a family thing.

: ( Ýóãóäú ÍóÇÌøóßó Ýöíåö ãöäú ÈóÚúÏö ãóÇ ÌóÇÁóßó ãöäó ÇáúÚöáúãö ÝóÞõáú ÊóÚóÇáóæúÇ äóÏúÚõ ÃóÈúäóÇÁóäóÇ æóÃóÈúäóÇÁóßõãú æóäöÓóÇÁóäóÇ æóäöÓóÇÁóßõãú æóÃóäúÝõÓóäóÇ æóÃóäúÝõÓóßõãú Ëõãøó äóÈúÊóåöáú ÝóäóÌúÚóáú áóÚúäóÉó Çááøóåö Úóáóì ÇáúßóÇÐöÈöíäó ) [ Âá ÚãÑÇä : 61

] .

yes you can argue this but Abu Bakr was also a family to the Prophet (sawws) through A'isha.... and what about ghadeer where everyone gave bayah to Imam Ali (as)? i think when everything is taken into consideration looked at logically and as a whole you come up with a very much clearer picture...........there is too much that points to Imamate and the status of Imam Ali (as)

I have never disrespected you personally since I have joined this forums. To you, I am a kaffir, so let us stop with the hypocracy.

to you all we are kuffar, however, to shia, the sunni are not........we still believe you all are muslims..... this is where you are misled

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why is it that as soon as there are a few questions he cant answer he avoids them completely and starts playing the "who calls who a kaffir" game.

i dont think wahabbis are kaffir. to be kaffir you have to be HUMAN first. but that doesnt change the fact that you cant answer my bloody questions does it. suprise suprise once he cant answer questions he runs away in a huff.

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