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LoveImamAli

Sunni Hadiths Which Hint Ali (as)

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Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5915:

This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camel. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#031.5915

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700:

Narrated Sad:

Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#005.059.700

Book 031, Number 5914:

Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women 4nd children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#031.5914

Book 031, Number 5916:

Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#031.5916

Book 031, Number 5919:

Salama b. Akwa' reported that it was 'Ali whom Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) left behind him (in the charge of his family and the Islamic State) on the occasion of the campaign of Khaibar, and his eyes were inflamed and he said: Is it for me to remain behind Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So he went forth and rejoined Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and on the evening of that night (after which) next morning Allah granted victory. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I will certainly give this standard to a man whom Allah and His Messenger love. or he said: Who loves Allah or His Messenger and Allah will grant him victory through him, and, lo, we saw 'Ali whom we least expected (to be present on that occasion). They (the Companions) said: Here is 'Ali. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon hin) gave him the standard. Allah granted victory at his hand.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#031.5919

Question is even for a few days, the Prophet (pbuh) did not leave his ummah without a successor, who was Ali, like his predecesor Moses who left Aaron.

Would he (pbuh) not have thought about his Ummah when he left the world by leaving a successor after him?

Edited by LoveImamAli

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There are many many more brother. But blind can not see light. These people are blind by heart and bias have covered their eyes. They are also blind in love of innovators and deviated so-called companions.

I thank Allah that you made this post brother, you made my day ;)

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There are many many more brother. But blind can not see light. These people are blind by heart and bias have covered their eyes. They are also blind in love of innovators and deviated so-called companions.

Besides the many hadiths, which hint Imam Ali (as) is the true successor of Prophet (pbuh), how the event of Ghadeer be forgotten?

ali2.JPG

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(salam)

This narration is also interesting.

Narrated Al-Aswad:

It was mentioned in the presence of 'Aisha that the Prophet had appointed 'Ali as successor by will. Thereupon she said, "Who said so? I saw the Prophet, while I was supporting him against my chest. He asked for a tray, and then fell on one side and expired, and I did not feel it. So how (do the people say) he appointed 'Ali as his successor?"

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#005.059.736

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Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700:

Narrated Sad:

Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#005.059.700

Okay now lets look at The Quran and find out how Aaron was to Moses

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) (Moses said: "O' Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is)

my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...," (Allah) said: "We granted your

requests, O' Moses." (Quran 20:29-36).

2) "Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as

his vizier." (Quran 25:35).

3) "... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my

comunity." (Quran 7:142).

Its amazing how you can see the similarity!! Allah (swt) really has made it clear to us! Look at this one now:

(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going

wrong?"... (Aaron said:) "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused

a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my

word!'" (Quran 20:92-94)

YA ALI!

Edited by ShiaBrother1

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Besides the many hadiths, which hint Imam Ali (as) is the true successor of Prophet (pbuh), how the event of Ghadeer be forgotten?

ali2.JPG

Nah, bro. According to our Sunni friends, Muhammed was merely stating that Ali is his friend. He stopped tens of thousands of pilgrims in the hot, Arabian desert to let them know that he and Ali were friends.

Makes sense, right? :lol:

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Nah, bro. According to our Sunni friends, Muhammed was merely stating that Ali is his friend. He stopped tens of thousands of pilgrims in the hot, Arabian desert to let them know that he and Ali were friends.

Makes sense, right? :lol:

hahaha thats funny

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These are interesting hadiths, but there are other ways to prove Ali's successorship. This just means that in the Prophet's absence Ali was the one who looked over the city. Haroon died before Musa, Yusha bin Nun was Musa's successor.

http://www.al-huda.com/TPOI_25.htm

Thanks for sharing that bro.

Indeed Yusha bin Nun was Musa's successor but due to the death of Haroon before Musa; however, do you think if Haroon was alive would there be another successor other than Haroon?

and what are the other ways to prove Ali (as) successorship?

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Thanks for sharing that bro.

Indeed Yusha bin Nun was Musa's successor but due to the death of Haroon before Musa; however, do you think if Haroon was alive would there be another successor other than Haroon?

and what are the other ways to prove Ali (as) successorship?

The claim that Aaron died during the life-time of Prophet Moses (if true)

does not hurt this argument at all, if you very carefully read the

following paragraphs:

As Moses (as) had left behind Aaron to look after his people when he went

to Miqaat (meeting Allah), in the same way the Prophet (PBUH&HF) was

leaving Ali behind as his deputy to look after the affairs of Islam after

he met Allah (i.e., his death).

This assertion becomes more evdient when we look at the last phrase of the

tradition of al-Bukhari where the Messenger of Allah mentioned: "but there

is no prophet AFTER me". Think about the word "AFTER" in the statement of

the Prophet. Don't you think that the Prophet Muhammad is talking about

AFTER his death? That position (leadership) which the Prophet entrusted to

Ali was with Ali till his death. No body except the Prophet Muhammad can

take this position back from him.

Prophet Moses (as) was away from his people for 40 days and he came back

and met them along with Haroon (as). Likewise, Prophet Muhammad is away

from us (living in the heaven), but he will soon meet us and his companions

as well as Imam Ali on the Day of Judgment. He will then question them the

same way as Moses questioned his people, specially those who left his

religion and worshipped the golden calf. Look at the following tradition

from Sahih al-Bukhari to have some idea about the would-be conversation

between Prophet Muhammad and some of his companions:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.585

Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-

Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and

whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come

to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me,

but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added:

Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from

Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said

Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say:

They are my companions. Then it will be said to me, 'You do not know

what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'.

I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed

after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of

Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be

driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord

(those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge

as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as

renegades (reverted from the true Islam)."

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/

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^ Excellent.

Moreover, we do not find any reference of successorship from Prophet (pbuh) or Allah for people like AbuBakr, Umar or Uthman.

By usurping the right of Imam Ali (as) as a successor of Prophet (pbuh) and by taking the place of Ali (as), as a leader of the Ummah after the Prophet (pbuh), is nothing but injustice on their part.

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This is what was on sunniforum when a sister quoted these hadiths. This is an ongoing forum for them, so it would be appreciated if there could be a reply to this. Thankyou

Sunniforum user:

The use of the analogy between Musa (Alayhi Salam) and Harun (Alayhi Salam) and using this to show that Ali (Radhia Allahu Anhu) is the succesor to the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) is a ploy that may work for those unaquainted with Twelver Shiaism.

But anyone who knows the beliefs of the Twelver Shias knows that this analogy is flawed at the very least, and delivers a fatal blow to Twelver Shiaism at most. The reason for this is that for the Shias, the important office that was being transferred from the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) to Ali (Radhi allahu Anhu) was that of Imamah.

Now, there are a number of matters that have to be sorted out, most importantly the fact that Twelver Shias claim that Musa (Alayhi Salam) was the Imam of his time. However, Harun (Alayhi Salam) died before Musa (alayhi Salam) and the leadrship passed on to Joshua. So if we apply the same logic as the Shias are pushing for, it will become very clear that Ali would be disqualified from being the leader after the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

There is no way to go around it by claiming that had Harun (alayhi Salam) lived he would have been the succesor, or any other claim, since the narration was given taking into consideration what DID happen, not what may have or could have or should have happened.

Again, this is why I say that the Ahlus Sunnah and the Shias are just different religions. From our perspective, there is really no need to exploit the meaning of a number of narrations (which would intrinsically be rejected by the Twelver Shias if they were to apply their rules) in order to milk beliefs that are incongruent with what has already been established by us. But since this is what the situation is, then we deal with the matters as they are presented, seeing what the other side believes

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2 separate posts:

The Shiites betrayed Hussein just like they kept on betraying ahlulBayt all throughout history.

Shimr The Persian was mentioned as a Shiite in a Shiite book if I recall :

Al-Qummi, author of the famous book “Mafaatihul-Jinaan”, writes in his book: “I say, Shimr was in the forces of Ameer al-Mu’mineen on the Day of Siffin.” (Al-Qummi, “Safinatun-Najaat”, vol.4, p. 492, Chapter Sheen Followed by Meem)

As for Twelver shiites I'll tell you what the problem is, All their books are fake forgeries Simply because they have no knowledge of Science of Hadith and they narrated things without making sure of their authenticity, So I take not my Religion from People whose books are full of lies Attributed to AhlulBayt and almost nothing concerning the prophet PBUH. I mean their most important book Is 90% Corrupt according to them.

The claim of Shia Encyclopedia (As Moses had left behind Aaron to look after his people when he went to Miqaat (meeting Allah), in the same way the Prophet (PBUH&HF) was leaving Ali behind as his deputy to look after the affairs of Islam after he met Allah (i.e., his death)" ) is quite invalid to say the very least. The logic in this case is extremely poor, since the Prophet Musa (Alayhi Sallam) went to a temporal meeting with Allah and his death was not imminent, in the same manner that the Prophet's (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) departure was temporary and only for the duration of the Tabuk campaign. It is indeed negatively wondrous as to how a temporal meeting is equated with death for the sake of propagating a specific dogma.

The use of the phrase "no prophet after me" is only a strong statement that there will be no prophet after Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam), and many such statements and restatements are found in the body of Hadith collections. To use this statement to make up an entirely new belief is just like the Christians using certain verses from the Qur'an to "prove" the Divinity of Jesus.

About the narration of apostacy, this matter has been explained by our illustrious 'Ulama, and there is no need to dwell on it. However, it is quite interesting that the Twelver Shias have no qualms about narrating from Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas, Sahl ibn Saad, Abu Hurayrah, and others on this matter, while the Shias consider them to be from among those who are eternally damned. Strange beliefs need strange routes to propagate them, and this is one of the manners in which Twelver Shias need to use, even though common sense will never accept such use of evidence.

Now im confused!!pls help!

__________________

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Who is more loved by Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) and received the banner of Islam from Prophet (pbuh).

Sahih Bukhari Hadeeth No. 2777 - Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa:

Ali remained behind the Prophet during the battle of Khaibar as he way suffering from some eye trouble but then he said, "How should I stay behind Allah's Apostle?" So, he set out till he joined the Prophet. On the eve of the day of the conquest of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle said, "(No doubt) I will give the flag or, tomorrow, a man whom Allah and His Apostle love or who loves Allah and His apostle will take the flag. Allah will bestow victory upon him." Suddenly 'Ali joined us though we were not expecting him. The people said, "Here is 'Ali. "So, Allah's Apostle gave the flag to him and Allah bestowed victory upon him.

What about Hijra when Prophet left Ali (as) on his bed?

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Question is even for a few days, the Prophet (pbuh) did not leave his ummah without a successor, who was Ali, like his predecesor Moses who left Aaron.

Would he (pbuh) not have thought about his Ummah when he left the world by leaving a successor after him?

All the hadiths in this thread are irrelevant. I see Shias here quoting hadiths that show that Allah and the Prophet (pbuh) love Ali, but that doesn't imply that he is to be his successor. The only hadith in this thread worthy responding to is the hadith that states:

"Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

My response to this is that there were others that the Prophet (pbuh) has left in charge of Al-Madinah other than Ali. Aren't they also like Aaron to Moses? If not, then produce your proof.

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All the hadiths in this thread are irrelevant. I see Shias here quoting hadiths that show that Allah and the Prophet pbuh.gif love Ali, but that doesn't imply that he is to be his successor. The only hadith in this thread worthy responding to is the hadith that states:

"Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

My response to this is that there were others that the Prophet pbuh.gif has left in charge of Al-Madinah other than Ali. Aren't they also like Aaron to Moses? If not, then produce your proof.

There was only one Aaron, just like there was only one Moses, so I don't think we can symbolically imply that every other companion of the Prophet was like "Aaron to Moses". In the entire Islamic history, we find that Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H used the analogy of "Aaron to Moses" for one and only one person - Maula Ali a.s

The Prophet P.b.u.h could have used it for other Sahaba e Karaam r.a (companions), but He didn't. So it makes sense that there was only one "Aaron to Moses" just like there was only one "Maula" (call it friend or master) on Ghadeer e Khum, one "Hum Nafs" at the event of Mubahila with Christians, one "Faateh Khaiber" (conquerer of Khaiber), one "Haidar e Karaar", one "Wali giving charity in Ruku" and One brother of the Prophet in the ceremony of brotherhood in Madina e.t.c e.t.c I think we have to consider Islamic history in its entirety to make sense of our ideologies.

Salams

Edited by inshaAllah
grammatical error

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There was only one Aaron, just like there was only one Moses, so I don't think we can symbolically imply that every other companion of the Prophet was like "Aaron to Moses". In the entire Islamic history, we find that Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H used the analogy of "Aaron to Moses" for one and only one person - Maula Ali a.s

Yes, that's true, Ahlul Sunnah don't believe that any of the companions are necessarily "like" Aaron. However, we affirm that those that were left behind are like Aaron to Moses in the sense that they were left behind to stay in charge while the other was away. As always, I have to stress the context of the hadith. Do we know of any other companions that complained for being left behind other than Ali? No. Would the Prophet (pbuh) comfort them by saying that they too are like Aaron to Moses if they did complain? Sure, why not?!

Furthermore, an even greater praise has been said about Omar in Sunan Al-Tirmithi:

"If there was to be a prophet after me, then it would be Omar bin Al-Khattab." #3686

However, even though this praise is more direct and greater than the praise that was given to Ali, Ahlul Sunnah don't assume that this hadith designates Omar as a chosen caliph.

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Yes, that's true, Ahlul Sunnah don't believe that any of the companions are necessarily "like" Aaron. However, we affirm that those that were left behind are like Aaron to Moses in the sense that they were left behind to stay in charge while the other was away. As always, I have to stress the context of the hadith. Do we know of any other companions that complained for being left behind other than Ali? No. Would the Prophet (pbuh) comfort them by saying that they too are like Aaron to Moses if they did complain? Sure, why not?!

Furthermore, an even greater praise has been said about Omar in Sunan Al-Tirmithi:

"If there was to be a prophet after me, then it would be Omar bin Al-Khattab." #3686

However, even though this praise is more direct and greater than the praise that was given to Ali, Ahlul Sunnah don't assume that this hadith designates Omar as a chosen caliph.

I agree, but this issue about Ali(ra) is all politics and no religion because the Deen was complete during the life of prophet(saw) . So instead talking about should Ali(ra) have or not have has nothing to do with the Deen because prophet(saw) didn't include it in the Deen. Prophet(saw) was so clear about small details, even down to how a muslim should eat and what muslims should do with marriage as he showed with the marriage between Ali(ra) and Fatima(ra), then if Imamat was to be part of the Deen, why wasn't it made explicit?

The questions should be asked of shia practices of including the 12 imams as part of the Deen as some do, Taqiyah, 6 pillars of islam as some have said and others, these beliefs should be questioned in light of the Sunnah considering the Deen was complete during the life of prophet(saw). I seriously doubt Ali(ra) would have ever added his name to the shahadah, and so why are people doing this? If Isa(as) never said he was the son of Allah(inauthubillah) , then when did Ali(ra) ever include himself in the shahadah?

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Yes, that's true, Ahlul Sunnah don't believe that any of the companions are necessarily "like" Aaron. However, we affirm that those that were left behind are like Aaron to Moses in the sense that they were left behind to stay in charge while the other was away. As always, I have to stress the context of the hadith. Do we know of any other companions that complained for being left behind other than Ali? No. Would the Prophet (pbuh) comfort them by saying that they too are like Aaron to Moses if they did complain? Sure, why not?!

Furthermore, an even greater praise has been said about Omar in Sunan Al-Tirmithi:

"If there was to be a prophet after me, then it would be Omar bin Al-Khattab." #3686

However, even though this praise is more direct and greater than the praise that was given to Ali, Ahlul Sunnah don't assume that this hadith designates Omar as a chosen caliph.

seriously....and as per your ilm-e-rijal, this is an authentic one?

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I agree, but this issue about Ali(ra) is all politics and no religion because the Deen was complete during the life of prophet(saw) . So instead talking about should Ali(ra) have or not have has nothing to do with the Deen because prophet(saw) didn't include it in the Deen. Prophet(saw) was so clear about small details, even down to how a muslim should eat and what muslims should do with marriage as he showed with the marriage between Ali(ra) and Fatima(ra), then if Imamat was to be part of the Deen, why wasn't it made explicit?

The questions should be asked of shia practices of including the 12 imams as part of the Deen as some do, Taqiyah, 6 pillars of islam as some have said and others, these beliefs should be questioned in light of the Sunnah considering the Deen was complete during the life of prophet(saw). I seriously doubt Ali(ra) would have ever added his name to the shahadah, and so why are people doing this? If Isa(as) never said he was the son of Allah(inauthubillah) , then when did Ali(ra) ever include himself in the shahadah?

The fact that deen was complete and perfected during the life of the Prophet (SAW), is indeed solely a Shia concept.

It is Sunnis that insist innovations by sheikhans should be considered part of deen.

As far as the 3rd Shahda is concerned lets agree on one thing, Shia's agree that the first 2 are enough for anyone to be qualified as a Muslim. Since Prophet (SAW) himself stated that the difference between the hypocrite and believer is the feelings towards Ali (as). So you really cannot say that 3rd shahada is an innovation.

Muslim - Book 001, Number 0141:

Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

Lets resolve this topic then I will show you how explicit Imamah is.

Edited by Righteous

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Yes it is. You can challenge me regarding the authenticity of it if you'd like to do so.

Ok LB chill. I wouldn't dare challenge Sunni ilm-e-rijal without working for a life time in a circus as a contortionist.

Now lets answer a few simple questions

Do you feel that matn can be a criteria for rejecting the hadith or not?

is nabawat a higher station then khilafat or not?

if #2 was given such a high honor then how do you maintain the superiority of #1 over him, when Mr. #2 always showed that he is less then Mr. #1?

Can you post the chain of this hadith and share your thoughts on the narrators.

Edited by Righteous

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Now lets answer a few simple questions

Do you feel that matn can be a criteria for rejecting the hadith or not?

Yes. Matn is a criteria. I've said this in the past and I'll say it again, matn can only be rejected when it is shaath in comparison to a more authentic hadith. Logic or personal morals/views have no place when it comes to examining a matn.

is nabawat a higher station then khilafat or not?

Yes, al-nubuwa hold a higher position.

if #2 was given such a high honor then how do you maintain the superiority of #1 over him, when Mr. #2 always showed that he is less then Mr. #1?

There is evidence that #1 is greater than #2 even when we include this hadith.

Can you post the chain of this hadith and share your thoughts on the narrators.

Can you read Arabic? If so, just pick up Al-Silsila Al-Saheeha. It quotes the hadith and speaks of the narrators briefly.

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Yes. Matn is a criteria. I've said this in the past and I'll say it again, matn can only be rejected when it is shaath in comparison to a more authentic hadith. Logic or personal morals/views have no place when it comes to examining a matn.

Eureka!!!!! Things are suddenly so much clearer now. No wonder when I say something intelligent or thought provoking i get parroted responses.

So you are arguing that using your brains has no place in madhab-e-Ahle Sunnat?

Yes, al-nubuwa hold a higher position.

There is evidence that #1 is greater than #2 even when we include this hadith.

can you see the paradox in your reasoning. What could #1 would have done to be more important then nabuwat?

Can you read Arabic? If so, just pick up Al-Silsila Al-Saheeha. It quotes the hadith and speaks of the narrators briefly.

I cannot read Arabic, and I was asking for your opinion.

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Yes, that's true, Ahlul Sunnah don't believe that any of the companions are necessarily "like" Aaron. However, we affirm that those that were left behind are like Aaron to Moses in the sense that they were left behind to stay in charge while the other was away. As always, I have to stress the context of the hadith. Do we know of any other companions that complained for being left behind other than Ali? No. Would the Prophet pbuh.gif comfort them by saying that they too are like Aaron to Moses if they did complain? Sure, why not?!

Salams Bro

I think your explanation of ahl-ul-sunna's point of view makes some sense (if we look at it from their perspective). But since we are having a discussion, I intend to explain where and why I disagree with it. And I also want to answer the bolded question.

Firstly, I agree with you that we have to stress on the context of the hadith. We learn from the context that the Prophet P.b.u.H only appointed Imam Ali a.s as his deputy of Madina. So when Imam Ali a.s expressed his dissapointment for not accompanying the Prophet P.b.u.H in the battle, the Prophet used the analogy of "Aaron to Moses". And this analogy pefectly fits Imam Ali a.s because He was being left behind as the incharge and the deputy of the Prophet in his absence. We get a clear answer as to why the Prophet used it on the first place. None of the other companions were made deputies of madina. That is why I don't believe that the Prophet would have comforted every other companion by saying that they are also like 'Aaron to Moses'.

And as I previously mentioned, we have to look at the Islamic history in its entirety to clarify whether this hadith was specific to Imam Ali a.s or whether it was general in nature. Time and time again in Islamic history, we see that Imam Ali a.s was set aside from the rest of the companions. All of the companions' doors leading to the mosque were closed except for Imam Ali. At Khaybar, even the second caliph wished to be the person who is loved by Allah and His Prophet. But it was Imam Ali only. At Mubahila, again it was Imam Ali only. And I think this "Aaron to Moses" hadith is one of those sayings of the Prophet where Imam Ali was once again differentiated from the rest of the companions. This hadith was very specific and not just another general praise hadith for companions imho.

Furthermore, an even greater praise has been said about Omar in Sunan Al-Tirmithi:

"If there was to be a prophet after me, then it would be Omar bin Al-Khattab." #3686

However, even though this praise is more direct and greater than the praise that was given to Ali, Ahlul Sunnah don't assume that this hadith designates Omar as a chosen caliph.

I have to say that I can easily discredit this hadith based on reasoning and context. However we're not supposed to go off topic. I think the obvious end of this discussion is that I have to respect the belief of ahl-ul-sunnah in this regard - I guess I can't say much and I think this is perhaps one of the limitations of Ilm-ul-Rijaal. If we just rely on the 'we think this is sahih, we think this is not', we have no choice but to agree to disagree in the end. However, if we consider other tools of authentication and study history of religion (from both sides) without limiting ourselves to 'I am shia' or 'I am sunni' attitude (like some kind of extreme nationalism), we will individually be able to make a lot more sense to our deen. Just a personal point of view :)

Fi-Amanillah

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The fact that deen was complete and perfected during the life of the Prophet (SAW), is indeed solely a Shia concept.

It is Sunnis that insist innovations by sheikhans should be considered part of deen.

As far as the 3rd Shahda is concerned lets agree on one thing, Shia's agree that the first 2 are enough for anyone to be qualified as a Muslim. Since Prophet (SAW) himself stated that the difference between the hypocrite and believer is the feelings towards Ali (as). So you really cannot say that 3rd shahada is an innovation.

Muslim - Book 001, Number 0141:

Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

Lets resolve this topic then I will show you how explicit Imamah is.

What? The Deen being complete is believed by the Sunni's, why else would you see the Sunni's following the Sunnah? How do you think the name Sunni came about? Its because Sunni's follow the Sunnah. Now that you might understand that, the prophet(saw) said that Deen is complete in hios last sermon, that means NO MORE additions.

An innovation is an innovation, why? Because the prophet(saw) didn't say it or do it. Just because your shaik adds something, you want to say its not an innovation, are your shaiks better than the prophet(saw) (inauthubillah)

As far as the 3rd kalimah goes, its an innovation, why? The prophet(saw) did not utter this 3rd kalimah, and when people took the shahadah during his life, they used the right kalimah. Hadrat Ali(ra) was alive all throughout prophethood, if it was meant to be added, why didn't the prophet(saw) say it? It was never meant to be there, and was added after the prophet(saw) death. IT therefore is an innovation, and any innovation is indirectly stating that the prophet(saw) missed something (inauthubillah). Did Ali(ra) add it? Ofcourse not, who ever added it and accepts it are doing to hadrat Ali(ra) what the christians did to Isa(as), giving him a status and saying things that he himself never did.

Remember, anything the prophet(saw) didn't say during his lifetime about the Deen is to be handled with caution, in the case of the 3rd Shahadah it is a total innovation and and addition. How can you say that the Shia's believe that the Deen was complete during the life of the prophet, but after his death, add on a 3rd shahada?

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What? The Deen being complete is believed by the Sunni's, why else would you see the Sunni's following the Sunnah? How do you think the name Sunni came about? Its because Sunni's follow the Sunnah. Now that you might understand that, the prophet(saw) said that Deen is complete in hios last sermon, that means NO MORE additions.

An innovation is an innovation, why? Because the prophet(saw) didn't say it or do it. Just because your shaik adds something, you want to say its not an innovation, are your shaiks better than the prophet(saw) (inauthubillah)

As far as the 3rd kalimah goes, its an innovation, why? The prophet(saw) did not utter this 3rd kalimah, and when people took the shahadah during his life, they used the right kalimah. Hadrat Ali(ra) was alive all throughout prophethood, if it was meant to be added, why didn't the prophet(saw) say it? It was never meant to be there, and was added after the prophet(saw) death. IT therefore is an innovation, and any innovation is indirectly stating that the prophet(saw) missed something (inauthubillah). Did Ali(ra) add it? Ofcourse not, who ever added it and accepts it are doing to hadrat Ali(ra) what the christians did to Isa(as), giving him a status and saying things that he himself never did.

Remember, anything the prophet(saw) didn't say during his lifetime about the Deen is to be handled with caution, in the case of the 3rd Shahadah it is a total innovation and and addition. How can you say that the Shia's believe that the Deen was complete during the life of the prophet, but after his death, add on a 3rd shahada?

Seems like my posts haven't gotten through to you.

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@ Righteous:

Please ask questions that are relevant to the topic. If you are interested in discussions like 1) the role of the intellect in Sunnism, 2) the superiority of Abu Bakr to Omar, 3) the authenticity of the chain of the hadith I quoted, then please, be my guest and create a new thread.

@ InshaAllah:

Firstly, I agree with you that we have to stress on the context of the hadith. We learn from the context that the Prophet P.b.u.H only appointed Imam Ali a.s as his deputy of Madina. So when Imam Ali a.s expressed his dissapointment for not accompanying the Prophet P.b.u.H in the battle, the Prophet used the analogy of "Aaron to Moses". And this analogy pefectly fits Imam Ali a.s because He was being left behind as the incharge and the deputy of the Prophet in his absence. We get a clear answer as to why the Prophet used it on the first place. None of the other companions were made deputies of madina. That is why I don't believe that the Prophet would have comforted every other companion by saying that they are also like 'Aaron to Moses'.

Please refer to Siyar A'alaam Al-Nubala'a and go through the biography of Ibn Um Maktoom. You will find that a few of the tabi'een held the view that Ibn Um Maktoom was left in charge of Al-Madeena during some of the Prophet's (pbuh) campaigns. Mus'ab bin Umair also was left in charge at times.

I have to say that I can easily discredit this hadith based on reasoning and context. However we're not supposed to go off topic. I think the obvious end of this discussion is that I have to respect the belief of ahl-ul-sunnah in this regard - I guess I can't say much and I think this is perhaps one of the limitations of Ilm-ul-Rijaal. If we just rely on the 'we think this is sahih, we think this is not', we have no choice but to agree to disagree in the end. However, if we consider other tools of authentication and study history of religion (from both sides) without limiting ourselves to 'I am shia' or 'I am sunni' attitude (like some kind of extreme nationalism), we will individually be able to make a lot more sense to our deen. Just a personal point of view :)

What are these other tooks of authentication do you speak of? How would one study the history of our religions when they are so contradictory?

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What? The Deen being complete is believed by the Sunni's, why else would you see the Sunni's following the Sunnah? How do you think the name Sunni came about? Its because Sunni's follow the Sunnah. Now that you might understand that, the prophet(saw) said that Deen is complete in hios last sermon, that means NO MORE additions.

An innovation is an innovation, why? Because the prophet(saw) didn't say it or do it. Just because your shaik adds something, you want to say its not an innovation, are your shaiks better than the prophet(saw) (inauthubillah)

As far as the 3rd kalimah goes, its an innovation, why? The prophet(saw) did not utter this 3rd kalimah, and when people took the shahadah during his life, they used the right kalimah. Hadrat Ali(ra) was alive all throughout prophethood, if it was meant to be added, why didn't the prophet(saw) say it? It was never meant to be there, and was added after the prophet(saw) death. IT therefore is an innovation, and any innovation is indirectly stating that the prophet(saw) missed something (inauthubillah). Did Ali(ra) add it? Ofcourse not, who ever added it and accepts it are doing to hadrat Ali(ra) what the christians did to Isa(as), giving him a status and saying things that he himself never did.

Remember, anything the prophet(saw) didn't say during his lifetime about the Deen is to be handled with caution, in the case of the 3rd Shahadah it is a total innovation and and addition. How can you say that the Shia's believe that the Deen was complete during the life of the prophet, but after his death, add on a 3rd shahada?

No need to go ballistic and repeat yourself over and over.

It is an established fact in Sunnis that what ever the "shaikhan" meaning abu bakr and umer is part of Deen.

As far as the third shahada is concerned I have already given the argument that Prophet (SAW) said so himself. So if the Prophet (SAW) asks you to climb a mountain but doesn't do himself that will not be Sunnah?

Muslim - Book 001, Number 0141:

Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

@ Righteous:

Please ask questions that are relevant to the topic. If you are interested in discussions like 1) the role of the intellect in Sunnism, 2) the superiority of Abu Bakr to Omar, 3) the authenticity of the chain of the hadith I quoted, then please, be my guest and create a new thread.

I call it building an argument. Let's play along so I can totally destroy your arguments.

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Furthermore, an even greater praise has been said about Omar in Sunan Al-Tirmithi:

"If there was to be a prophet after me, then it would be Omar bin Al-Khattab." #3686

Now who is superior after reading Umar's saying "Had Ali not been there, Umar would have been ruined"?

Qazi Fazlullah Bin Ruzbahan, the fanatic, in his Ibtalu'l-Batil; Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his Tihdhibu'l-Tahdid, printed in Hyderabad Daccan, page 337; Ibn Hajar in Isaba, Volume II, printed in Egypt, page 509; Ibn Qutayba Dinawari in Ta'wil-e-Mukhtalafu'l-Hadith, page 201-202, Ibn Hajar Makki in Sawa'iq-e-Muhriqa, page 78; Hajj Ahmad Afindi in Hidayatu'l-Murtab, page 146 and 152; Ibn Athir Jazari in Usudu'l-Ghaiba, Volume IV, page 22; Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa, page 66; Ibn Abdu'l-Birr Qartabi in Isti'ab, Volume II, page 474; Seyyed Mu'min Shablanji in Nuru'l-Absar, page 73; Shahabu'd-Din Ahmad bin Abdu'l-Qadir A'jili in Zakhiratu'l-Ma'al; Muhammad bin Ali As-Saban in Is'afu'r-Raghibin, page 152; Nuru'd-Din bin Sabbagh Maliki in Fusulu'l-Muhimma, page 18; Nuru'd-Din Ali bin Abdullah Samhudi in Jawahiru'l-Iqdain; Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazili in Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume I, page 6, Allama Qushachi in Sharh-e-Tarid, page 407, Khatib Khawarizmi in Manaqib, page 48, 60, Muhammad bin Talha Shafi'i in Matalibu's-Su'ul sub-Chapter 6, page 29, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal in Faza'il as well as Musnad; Sibt Ibn Jauzi in Tadhkira, page 85, 87, Imam Tha'labi in Tafsir Kafshu'l-Bayan, Allama Ibn Qayyim Jauzi in Turuqi'l-Hakim, recording Ali's judgments from page 41 to page 53; Muhammad bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in Kifayatu't-Talib, Chapter 57; Ibn Maja Qazwini in Sunan, Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in Manaqib; Ibrahim bin Muhammad Hamwaini in Fara'id; Muhammad bin Ali bin Hasani'l-Hakim in Sharh-e-Fathi'l-Mubin, Dailami in Firdaus, Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Chapter 14, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya as well as in Ma Nazala'l-Qur'an fi Ali, and a host of other great ulema of your sect, with slight variation in words, have narrated Umar's saying, "If there were no Ali, Umar would have been ruined."

http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/6.2.html

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Furthermore, an even greater praise has been said about Omar in Sunan Al-Tirmithi:

"If there was to be a prophet after me, then it would be Omar bin Al-Khattab." #3686

However, even though this praise is more direct and greater than the praise that was given to Ali, Ahlul Sunnah don't assume that this hadith designates Omar as a chosen caliph.

If Umar was as "chosen prophet" as per you

How about these 2 hadiths from the same Sahih book about Prophet ordering the Ummah to follow Ali (as) as the successor

Sunan Thirmidi, Volume 6, Chapter 31, Hadith No. 3788:

Zaid bin Arqam r.a., narrated that the messenger of Allah s.a.a.w. said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).

Sunan Thirmidi, Volume 6, Chapter 31, Hadith No. 3786:

Jibir bin Abdullah said: "I saw the Messenger of Allah during his Hajj, on the Day of Arafah (on his last pilgramage). He was upon his camel Al-Qaswa, giving a Khutbah, so he said: O People! Indeed, I have left among you, that which if you hold fast to it, you shall not go astray: The Book of Allah (Quran) and my Family, the People of my House (Ahlul-Bait).(Sahih)

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