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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sufi Sects And Secret Knowledge

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Lately I had a discussion with my brother-in-law on the so-called special knowledge sufi sects are known to possess. Now my brother-in-law is a very rational intellectual who is not the type of person to easily be swayed by claims of superstition; yet he believes in this

He gave me a few examples of mosques in Isfahan and Indonesia that surprisingly have survived earth quakes for centuries, mainly because the the sufi sects that biult them had used some of that special knowledge to construct structures beyond our present understanding. This stuff I can believe, because it doesn't sound so far out there.

But then there's stuff like a sheikh being present at two mosques at the same time and his followers testifying to that. I find that very hard to believe.

What is even more interesting is this new theory I have heard that some of this special knowledge was used by Hezbollah against Israel. Hence why Hezbollah won against unimaginable odds via fighting the most powerful army on earth.

My question is how credible are any of these claims? Do these sufi sects indeed safeguard this special knowledge given to them by the Imams or is it all just hogwash and make believe? Post your thoughts.

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well, there is no doubt that spiritual knowledge exists and people use them. However not all of them posses that who claim...

People mostly use such knowledge if someone is the victim of black magic like that. It's not uncommon thing to hear in the world...!!

Edited by Jaf
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Lately I had a discussion with my brother-in-law on the so-called special knowledge sufi sects are known to possess. Now my brother-in-law is a very rational intellectual who is not the type of person to easily be swayed by claims of superstition; yet he believes in this

He gave me a few examples of mosques in Isfahan and Indonesia that surprisingly have survived earth quakes for centuries, mainly because the the sufi sects that biult them had used some of that special knowledge to construct structures beyond our present understanding. This stuff I can believe, because it doesn't sound so far out there.

Not hard for me to believe either.

But then there's stuff like a sheikh being present at two mosques at the same time and his followers testifying to that. I find that very hard to believe.

Not so long ago we used to have someone in our very community (sunni) with this gift. He passed away.

It is not hard to believe for me.

What is even more interesting is this new theory I have heard that some of this special knowledge was used by Hezbollah against Israel. Hence why Hezbollah won against unimaginable odds via fighting the most powerful army on earth.

Is it hard to believe that Allah (SWT) aids His servants against His enemies- through agents unseen?

My question is how credible are any of these claims? Do these sufi sects indeed safeguard this special knowledge given to them by the Imams or is it all just hogwash and make believe? Post your thoughts.

On this question I have an issue.

We must differentiate between "secret knowledge" and "karaamat" (Miracles), if we are speaking in terms of miracles then, miracles are not the exclusive property of muslimeen or mu'mineen, even a satanist can levitate and perform supernatural feats- it doesn't mean a damn thing because Allah (SWT) chooses whomsoever He wishes and Allah (SWT) allows and gives "power" to whomsoever he wishes.

If Islam had the monopoly on miracles we would be the ONLY religion in the world today, think about it!

On the topic of why others can achieve supernatural qualities, my teacher once told me a story that has stuck in my mind till today:

One day the famous saint Mu'inudeen Chisti (rah) was entering a city and as he was entering this city he felt the "presence" of a powerful person in the city, at that moment in-time the famous jogi Agapal was in the city-centre with his people and he sensed the arrival of a power aura into the city (Mu'inudeen)

They met finally as Mu'inudeen arrived near the area and Agapal remarked: "You are powerful, but I have read your aura/ chakras (whatever) and we are at about the same-level!" to which Mu'inudeen replied: "Yes, but the modus/ channels which we have taken are different and mine clearer than yours."

So they entered into a contest of Karaamat, asking each other to do different tasks.

Finally, Mu'inudeen told Agapal to turn a leaf into water, to which Agapal complied, but the water gave off a repugnant or unpleasant odour, then Mu'inudeen (rah) did the same and when he produced the water, it gave off a pleasant smell so much so that Agapal asked to have the water and to understand/ study how he achieved this feat.

Okay, story time is over, whether you believe it or not is another thing, but what I took home from that- is that there are different mediums or channels to achieve a desired effect, there isn't only one way but what there is, is a better way of achieving it.

Where the sufis got there knowledge from, I believe it is not always from the Holy Imaams (as)- but most of the time it is mere adaptation of that same channel of transmission. Certain secrets are passed down to the elite, but most other so-called "secrets" that some sufis have are sometimes common a'mals for shias and sometimes they genuinely have some naqsh or dua that was prescribed for their previous teachers which has survived with them.

Funny story about sufis, a person I know from Qum was reciting Du'ae Jaushan-Kabeer one Thursday night and a sufi who was visiting there became utterly shocked, he enquired: "where did you get this du'a from?" they replied: "It is the teachings of the AhlulBayt (as)," he replied: "Only select ones in our circle can recite that du'a, they are hand -chosen by the pir to pray this as a special dhikr"

So one can also see from this, that if we opened-up our own books occasionally we might find some valuable "secrets" too!

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ive seen a sufi cure a crippled man and a man suffering from terminal cancer on his deathbed. i dont know if it was secret knowledge or a karamat, but whatever it was, it was real. he read sum names of Allah i think? cant be sure.

the sheikh who was in 2 places at once is called ayatollah behjat, his life story is full of such things, the guys a superhero

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Many sufi sects have lots of bidat within them, don't quote me on this but that's what I've heard. Theyve developed strange rituals. However the knowledge ur speaking of is ilm e Irfan, I believe.

hoiw can you say that sufis believe in something other than irfani knowledge possessed by that man in the court of Solomon and the knowledge of the book, 72 lettered greatest name formula, and so on? Imam Mahdi possesses all of this.

But then there's stuff like a sheikh being present at two mosques at the same time and his followers testifying to that. I find that very hard to believe.

do you believe in Quran? it talks about a man travelling to yemen or africa and coming back to israel within a blink of an eye.

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I have seen a man stop the rain by just placing clay on the window with arabic alphabets on the window. I have seen a video this guy got shot 70 times but survived because of holy water with quranic verses recited on it.

holy water video >>>>>> http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1642.htm

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hoiw can you say that sufis believe in something other than irfani knowledge possessed by that man in the court of Solomon and the knowledge of the book, 72 lettered greatest name formula, and so on? Imam Mahdi possesses all of this.

hey im sure many sufi sects have that knowledge of irfan. but theres alot of bidat associated with sufis. for example, all that singing/dancing/drums stuff. whats up with that? once again, i know thats with certain sects. but is it necessary to follow a sufi tariqah to gain that knowledge?

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there are non-sufi shia who believe that great urafaa (practitioners of irfaan) were able to do things that others cannot due to there spiritual level. and that is among mainstream shia, not in sufi tariqas

allahu alim

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all you need is

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/lubb_al_lubab/

and

http://al-islam.org/lwm/

and

http://www.google.com/search?q=sayr+site%3...tf8&oe=utf8

Anyone who tries to make islamic spirituality into a sect is not worth your time.

you may learn from many sufi orders but compare it to the Qur'an and Sunnah

and take what you feel is useful and leave what you feel is doubtful.

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hey im sure many sufi sects have that knowledge of irfan. but theres alot of bidat associated with sufis. for example, all that singing/dancing/drums stuff. whats up with that? once again, i know thats with certain sects. but is it necessary to follow a sufi tariqah to gain that knowledge?

there is good and bad to be found in each sect. for example, there are people in shias who on ashura bring out monkeys and dogs and name them the caliphs of sunnis and curse them.

then there are others who walk on fire to prove how great their iman is, on ashura, and others who make a lion do matam which is animal torture.

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sufis give lot of importance to spritiual knowledge.they do have it.their spritiual part of life take them completly.

according to shia beliefs ,its not permitted.

it is easy to take either deen or duniya,but the tuff part is to strike a balance between deen and duniya.that person is sucessful in this life and hereafter.

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He gave me a few examples of mosques in Isfahan and Indonesia that surprisingly have survived earth quakes for centuries, mainly because the the sufi sects that biult them had used some of that special knowledge to construct structures beyond our present understanding.

There is no "special" knowledge involved. It is an easy engineering feat for small buildings. Just look at every old Japanese structure, which have survived in one of the most earthquake prone zones in the world.

It is people making miracles out of things that are not, which gives people mystical status. Miracles must be observed first hand because by their nature they are unbelievable, and so relying on second hand information just leads to misinformation like above.

there is good and bad to be found in each sect. for example, there are people in shias who on ashura bring out monkeys and dogs and name them the caliphs of sunnis and curse them.

then there are others who walk on fire to prove how great their iman is, on ashura, and others who make a lion do matam which is animal torture.

I agree but the walking on fire thing is a Hindu tradition of Thimithi. It was probably adopted by South Asian Muslims at some point. Also I have seen people glorifying a horse during Asura festivals, which I don't think is looked upon quite so well.

Edited by Poobert
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There is no "special" knowledge involved. It is an easy engineering feat for small buildings. Just look at every old Japanese structure, which have survived in one of the most earthquake prone zones in the world.

It is people making miracles out of things that are not, which gives people mystical status. Miracles must be observed first hand because by their nature they are unbelievable, and so relying on second hand information just leads to misinformation like above.

Not true

Japan is one of the most earthquake prone zones in the world??????? care to verify that. I don't think I believe your example of so-called old Japanese structure unless you can provide examples of them surviving repeated earthquakes

the mosques I am referring have repeatedly over the centuries gone through various earth-quakes and survived. the proof is in the housing and the rest of the infrastructure around them that was destroyed time and time again, yet they alone survived.

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no one needs to indulge in biddah in order to gain irfan.... thats just stupid...... how do you get closer to Allah by doing inovaitons in our reliigon? i think it makes you farther and farther away.....

think about black majic for a few minutes... they can do amazing things too...lol... does this mean we all run and do what they do?

or do we follow the religion of Allah in truth!?!

hhhmmmm not much of a choice now is it.....

the shaitan he whispers to you and make you think something is good when it is not and leads you astray.......

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[a] There is no doubt that certain supernatural effects (e.g. tayzul ardh) come into play with Irfaan.

Sufi's are a repugnant sect. In fact, when I read the OP, it cracked me up: "Hey, look at us guys, we have superpowers and if you come to us too, you can have them too !" <- Classical Sufi Propaganda BS..

So gullible people have become now that they are so easily deceived.. >_<

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[a] There is no doubt that certain supernatural effects (e.g. tayzul ardh) come into play with Irfaan.

Sufi's are a repugnant sect. In fact, when I read the OP, it cracked me up: "Hey, look at us guys, we have superpowers and if you come to us too, you can have them too !" <- Classical Sufi Propaganda BS..

So gullible people have become now that they are so easily deceived.. >_<

i would be careful calling anyone (apart from wahabbis) repugnant bro, there must be real urefa within the sect, and they love imam ali so they cant be THAT bad?

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he is not saying this of his own mind brother he is simply repeating the words of Al-Allamah at-Tabataba'i ........ he is a great and extremely respected scholar......he is the author of tafsir al-mizan

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sorry but generalizing a group such as Sufi who are non-violent and the most peaceful of people amongst the muslims is disrespectful and there should be a site rule to ban those who speak against the sufis.

ive gotta say i agree with you - ive met quite a few sufis and theyve all been great people. i only find repungant those aspects of peoples faith that cause distress and damage to other- and from the top of my head there havent been any sufi - related massacres in history (which is more than shias can say)

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i would be careful calling anyone (apart from wahabbis) repugnant bro, there must be real urefa within the sect, and they love imam ali so they cant be THAT bad?

heh, by definition, they are repugnant, just like you have also recognised the wahabbi's as such. As with wahabbi's though, not every single principle/belief they hold is necessarily bad. But clearly, the intrinsic belief of extremeism in the wahabbi sect (which has also rightly earned them their stereotype), is condemnable. Similarly, the intrinsic beliefs in the necessity of innovated rituals in the Sufi sect is also condemnable.

By accepting the Wahabbi's are repugnant, here I have used that as my only premise & deductively drawing paralells to prove to you that the Sufi's are also repugnant.

Love Imam Ali [AS] ? You couldn't have made a more interesting comment.

Imam al-Hadi said:

Forbidding from associating with the Sufis

Imam al-Hadi (a.s.) warned his companions and all Muslims from associating and mixing with the Sufis because they were a source of error and deviation to people. They showed asceticism to seduce simple and na�ve people.

Al-Husayn bin Abul Khattab said, �One day, I was with Abul Hasan al-Hadi (a.s.) in the mosque of the Prophet (a.s.) when some of his companions, among whom was Abu Hashim al-Ja�fari, came to him. Abu Hashim was an eloquent man and had a high position near Imam al-Hadi (a.s.). While we were standing, a group of Sufis came into the mosque. They sat in a corner of the mosque and began saying �la ilaha illallah; there is no god but Allah�. Imam al-Hadi (a.s.) turned towards his companions and said to them, �Do not pay attention to these deceivers for they are allies of the Devils and destroyers of the bases of religion. They become ascetic to relieve their bodies and watch to hunt cattle�they do not practice rites except to deceive people, and do not decrease food except to�cheat the fool�their worships are but dancing and clapping, and their praises are but singing. No one follows them except the stupid, and no one believes in them except the fool. Whoever went to visit any of them alive or dead as if he went to visit Satan and idolaters, and whoever supported any of them, as if he supported, Mo�awiya, Yazid, and Abu Sufyan��

One of the companions said, �Even if he acknowledges your rights?�

Imam al-Hadi (a.s.) scolded him and shouted, �Do not say that! He, who acknowledges our rights, does not disobey us. Do you not know that they are the worst group of Sufis, though all Sufis are dissentient to us and their way is contrary to ours? They are but Christians and magi of this nation. They do their best to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse��

[1] The waqifites were a group of people believing in the imamate of the first seven imams from Imam Ali (a.s.) to Imam Musa bin Ja�far al-Kadhim (a.s.) and did not believe in the rest five imams.

[2] Man La Yahdhuruhu al-Faqih.

Now, the interesting point here is, do you really believe in what your Imams [AS] say, or not ?

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A sufi gypsy can dance all they want but if i kick them where it hurts it will hurt no matter what..

If a sufi gypsy decides not to retaliate to a donkey.... that shows what a good human he (sufi) is.

Edited by Yiligiz
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Not true

Japan is one of the most earthquake prone zones in the world??????? care to verify that. I don't think I believe your example of so-called old Japanese structure unless you can provide examples of them surviving repeated earthquakes

Yes it is true....... Japan lies on the meeting point of 3 plate boundaries. It has more earthquakes than California and makes Iran look as steady as a hydrogen atom in an infinite potential well. It holds the record for the most costliest natural disaster ever and has volcanoes tsunamis and typhoons to boot. (Kobe anyone?)

Come on man, this is GCSE level knowledge.

Check this: http://www.benhills.com/articles/articles/JPN22a.html

One out of every 10 earthquakes in the world happens in Japan.

Also check this: http://www.seinan-gu.ac.jp/~djohnson/natural/quakes.html

Japan has the most extensive warning system for seismic activity because of it's location. The government has spent huge sums of money on it. They even have a website dedicated to it: http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/index.html

http://web-japan.org/trends00/honbun/tj010330.html This is about a wood temple that has survived for over a thousand year and again confirms that

......the five-story pagoda has not succumbed to earthquakes, even though Japan is in a major earthquake zone.

This is about ancient Japanese architecture being used to create an Earthquake proof building in Japan. The Imperial Hotel is famous for it's survival of an Earthquake that leveled the city.

http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nipponia33/en/topic/index.html This is explaining how some pagodas have been standing after many many earthquakes that flattened everything else.

And again: http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1299.htm (Over 1400 years.... well before any sufi mosque was built)

And from Wikipedia just in case you need it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Japan

Some modern earthquake proof buildings in Japan: http://web-japan.org/atlas/architecture/arc10.html

I think you get the picture.

-------------------

A few Sufi mosques standing after a few Earthquakes are not miraculous by any standards.

Edited by Poobert
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my english is bad but intelligent people get the point...

my english is bad too..... and i do not get the point..... am i not an intelligent people?

Edited by fatima2003
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Hello everybody

Well, I know that what the sufi did is like fengshui of Chinese. Just bunch of superstitious beliefs that does not worth anything. Irfan is a knowledge of religion and spirituality. And Sufi only know such knowledge and it does not go beyond that. You must remember the story of Imam Ali AS and Salman e Farsi and ten stages of faith.

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What is a "sufi sect"? that expression is really funny (not being sarcastic)

Much of the talk in this thread is just opinion with no backing.

Ayatullah Tabatabai Tabrezi has a student named Syed Hoosein Nasr (who studied under him for how many years?) The foundation of Sunnism is Tasawwuf. Those masjids in Esfahan and Indonesia were not built using secrets of knowledge of the unseen that the sufis in those areas had gained. Infact, those masjids were built by pure scientific engineering, just as the massive masjids in Turkey that have survived very very strong earthquakes (the old Ottoman ones)

Edited by Sijistani
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Irfan is a knowledge of religion and spirituality.

Irfan which is based on Quran and ahadith is true Irfan. The "Irfan" you find today is nothing but Sufism by another name. Just because some scholars have endorsed it and deem it legit doesn't mean it's right. Last time I checked there were only 14 infallibles.

Edited by Whizbee
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