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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ayat Tatheer (33:33)

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Incorrect, brother. If Sunni and Shi'i are debating over it for centuries, it is not a clear-cut answer. It requires a tafseer using the decisive verses to put it into perspective.

shias and sunnis aren't by default the God's chosen people.

Do you read Arabic, bro? Do you know what the difference between 'kun' and 'kum' is?

no difference.

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No the verse after it does not mention wives specifically. Even if you want to argue it is still addressing them, the topic is completely different from staying home and is about remembering the Quran

Salaam. A brother just asked in one of his threads: Salaam. The Qur'an does not say that wives are part of Ahlul'bayt (a.s.). What the Qur'an says is: "O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this

only reason the wifes are not in ahlulbayt is because, if there is a divorce between man and wife they r no longer part of the family. so there is always that part that will/might be broken, but ur so

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shias and sunnis aren't by default the God's chosen people.

Irrelevant.

no difference.

There is a HUGE difference, brother. If Allah was addressing the wives, He would've used 'kun' to indicate feminine plurality. He used 'kum' (masculine plurality, which can include females, but only if there is at least one male in the group) to indicate a change in who He is referring to.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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The word Àhlulbayt is not unclear, it`s been shown to be chosen ones in the Quran, if you read suratal hud and suratal auli-imran, and so many other places abotu chosen family, then how can *the family* be unclear? how can people of that not be seen as chosen ones?

It is not unclear, it`is clear...

the verses are about the wives of prophet, that is CLEAR :D

OK, you can think that.. but if your wrong it might lead to hell and disbelief.

you would be insane to believe that considering wives of the prophet's house to be the members of the house would lead someone to hell. That is the epitomy of extremism and jahiliyah.

Allah (swt) dictated verses and verses about chosen family so that when people read `*the house*, they suppose think it`s not significant and is unrelated to guidance, and it is just historical analysis of the past.. and so on??

The family of Guidance are all chosen people, and Quran is not unclear in that...

al-Bayt clearly means that in Quran, just go back read surah 3 and surah 11, and you get proper meaning of surah 33.

Bayt means house. Prophet's house and the people who are in it are being mentioned in it. The wife of Lut and the other prophet were also part of the house of Lut, irrespective of them being evil or good. It doesn't matter which family or house you are from, it is your deeds which matter.

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no difference.

One is plural female.

The other is plural male.

And the verse i showed you 33:55, the bolded part is plural female *and fear God*, what was before it was addressed to Mohammad (pbuh).

With hadithal Kisaa being mutuwatir, then there is no reason to assume others were included in the address especially when Mohammad (pbuh) made it clear who they are.

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There is a HUGE difference, brother. If Allah was addressing the wives, He would've used 'kun' to indicate feminine plurality. He used 'kum' (masculine plurality, which can include females, but only if there is at least one male in the group) to indicate a change in who He is referring to.

Is "bayt" masculine or plural?

One is plural female.

The other is plural male.

And the verse i showed you 33:55, the bolded part is plural female *and fear God*, what was before it was addressed to Mohammad pbuh.gif.

With hadithal Kisaa being mutuwatir, then there is no reason to assume others were included in the address especially when Mohammad pbuh.gif made it clear who they are.

the yahuud and nasara created sects for no reason whatsoever, such as the reason you are showing above.

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you would be insane to believe that considering wives of the prophet's house to be the members of the house would lead someone to hell.

IF a person believe ulil-Amri (as) can be people like yazid, then the whole book becomes darkened

if you don`t believe there is a chosen family, then most of the Quran is darkened and you will not benefit from it and most of you get out of reading it will be whispers from Satan and nothing more.

Bayt means house.

So what does it mean we did not find other then one house to be submitters... since when was a house plural a people? that of course is referring to Lut (as) family.

And tell me what`s the big deal of being a part of some material build house that Sarah (as) should not find strange that such she been granted such a blessing?

Prophet's house and the people who are in it are being mentioned in it. The wife of Lut and the other prophet were also part of the house of Lut, irrespective of them being evil or good. It doesn't matter which family or house you are from, it is your deeds which matter.

So why was Nuh (as) son said to be not of his family. And what does it mean the family of Ibrahim (as) is chosen above the worlds?

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IF a person believe ulil-Amri as.gif can be people like yazid, then the whole book becomes darkened

if you don`t believe there is a chosen family, then most of the Quran is darkened and you will not benefit from it and most of you get out of reading it will be whispers from Satan and nothing more.

Yazid or ulil amr isn't even part of the discussion here.

So what does it mean we did not find other then one house to be submitters... since when was a house plural a people? that of course is referring to Lut as.gif family.

yeah one home with submitters and few of those who disbelieved afterwards...

And tell me what`s the big deal of being a part of some material build house that Sarah as.gif should not find strange that such she been granted such a blessing?

Wives of prophets lived in with them in the same house. The house is of no importance, the individuals are of more importance.

So why was Nuh as.gif son said to be not of his family. And what does it mean the family of Ibrahim as.gif is chosen above the worlds?

he was still a part of their home. House doesn't mean "family". Aisha isn't specifically pointed out by Allah to mohammad somewhere that she is not part of his family. Same is the case with Hafsa, Umm Salma, Maria Copt, Khadija Kubra, and others....

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Is "bayt" masculine or plural?

OK, now I'm beginning to suspect that you have no idea what the purpose of this thread is...

Bayt is irrelevant to this discussion... lol.

the yahuud and nasara created sects for no reason whatsoever, such as the reason you are showing above.

Irrelevant.

Answer the question: Why did Allah change genders for only Ayah Tatheer?

- Mansab

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You know what, nothing is disconnected, even Ulil-Amri as.gif are part of all of this, because 33:6 is about Mastership and there is no reason not to see Ulil-Arham as to be other then the chosen family.

There is no point of arguing anymore much of the Quran is about displaying what Malakuti Inheritance is from the sign of Talut as.gif Mulk to many other verses after that... and again, it`s total blindness not to see a chosen family not only in this surah but implied else where...

No it isn't. You involve everything around few personalities because your mind isn't ready to handle more personalities. There were MANY good people at the time of Prophet. Not all of them were good nor all of them were bad.

Ulil Amr is about ruling a state and this verse is just about the house of Prophet, the privacy within and how the wives of prophet should behave.

Talut wasn't even part of any prophet's holy family :lol:

Why did Allah change genders for only Ayah Tatheer?

What does gender change prove anyway? It only proves further that by changing the gender to female God is indeed referring to particular females..

Edited by Yiligiz
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What does gender change prove anyway? It only proves further that by changing the gender to female God is indeed referring to particular females..

Brother, you're mistaken. Allah changes the plural from feminine TO masculine FOR this:

"Allah only wishes to keep away from you all impurities..." (33:33)

Everything before and after is in feminine, whereas this has a gender change.

- Mansab

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Brother, you're mistaken. Allah changes the plural from feminine TO masculine FOR this:

"Allah only wishes to keep away from you all impurities..." (33:33)

Everything before and after is in feminine, whereas this has a gender change.

i know it was that i was confirming.

so the bayt or a house is a masculine term its not referring to male people otherwise Lady Fatima wouldn't be included in the Ahlul Bayt either.

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but it IS referring to a group that is MAJORITY male, which would NOT be the case if the wives of prophet pbuh.gif were included

which also means that no daughter of Prophet (saw) is included either. I am talking about the real daughter Lady Fatima (sa) as well, since she left his house to live in Imam Ali's house. She is part of his Ahlul bayt since now she has left Prophet's (saw) house.

btw House is a masculine term... its talking about the house as a masculine term not its members..

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which also means that no daughter of Prophet (saw) is included either. I am talking about the real daughter Lady Fatima (sa) as well, since she left his house to live in Imam Ali's house. She is part of his Ahlul bayt since now she has left Prophet's (saw) house.

btw House is a masculine term... its talking about the house as a masculine term not its members..

Brother, start thinking clearly and stop debating on the word "bayt", because it has nothing to do with this discussion. If "bayt" is masculine, it doesn't change anything, because the HOUSE is the object in that perspective, not the PEOPLE WHO BELONG TO IT. Have you ever studied grammar in school? The PEOPLE are whom the gender change is reflective towards, NOT bayt. For the same reason the first part of the verse says: "stay in your houses" in a FEMININE tense, not masculine, even though bayt is masculine.

You have to realize that Ahlul'bayt is "PEOPLE of the house", it isn't "HOUSE of the PEOPLE." The PEOPLE are whom the gender usage is reflecting.

Answer the question: Why did Allah use the feminine for the first sentence of Ayah Tatheer (33:33) but then switch immediately to masculine gender usage for the second part?

- Mansab

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Brother, start thinking clearly and stop debating on the word "bayt", because it has nothing to do with this discussion. If "bayt" is masculine, it doesn't change anything, because the HOUSE is the object in that perspective, not the PEOPLE WHO BELONG TO IT. Have you ever studied grammar in school? The PEOPLE are whom the gender change is reflective towards, NOT bayt. For the same reason the first part of the verse says: "stay in your houses" in a FEMININE tense, not masculine, even though bayt is masculine.

You have to realize that Ahlul'bayt is "PEOPLE of the house", it isn't "HOUSE of the PEOPLE." The PEOPLE are whom the gender usage is reflecting.

Answer the question: Why did Allah use the feminine for the first sentence of Ayah Tatheer (33:33) but then switch immediately to masculine gender usage for the second part?

i already answered you. The house includes the owner of the house Prophet Muhammad, so Allah wants to remove all kind of evil from the house of Prophet which doesn't even include Ali, Imam Hasan and Hussain, and Lady Fatima, since they were part of Imam Ali's house.

And i think Allah succeeded in removing rijs from the house. If there was rijs in the house in the first place, and if you believe that 'Ahlul bayt' meaning 14 masomeen were all masoom, your claim is rendered worthless since they had rijs and were fallible.

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i already answered you. The house includes the owner of the house Prophet Muhammad, so Allah wants to remove all kind of evil from the house of Prophet which doesn't even include Ali, Imam Hasan and Hussain, and Lady Fatima, since they were part of Imam Ali's house.

Is the purification conditional or unconditional?

Answer the question, we'll take this step by step.

And i think Allah succeeded in removing rijs from the house. If there was rijs in the house in the first place, and if you believe that 'Ahlul bayt' meaning 14 masomeen were all masoom, your claim is rendered worthless since they had rijs and were fallible.

You're reading an incorrect english translation.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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Irrelevent.

Now onto 33.33, the verse is about the wives of prophet unless quran specifies otherwise, which it doesn't. You can't involve muslims into a verse of Quran which is addressing bani israelis.

You haven't answered the question, which shows that you are defeated on every point. Quite pathetic.

Learn the difference in gender usage, and then come back and discuss. You have no idea what is going on. :D

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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You didn't answer me. Find me one verse of quran where muslims Bani israelis or christians are specifically mentioned in the beginning and then some other people are mentioned without them being specifically mentioned.

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You didn't answer me. Find me one verse of quran where muslims Bani israelis or christians are specifically mentioned in the beginning and then some other people are mentioned without them being specifically mentioned.

I can give you the example of 5:3, where there are parenthetical verses in there.

If you take care to stop being an ignorant one and if you actually read and ponder on the points raised in the article itself, you will be all set.

Until then, you're arguing utter nonsense, with due respect to you brother. You must agree to use logical proofs and not logical fallacies in your search for the truth.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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[5:3] O ye who believe! profane not the Signs of Allah, nor the Sacred Month, nor the animals brought as an offering, nor the animals of sacrifice wearing collars nor those repairing to the Sacred House, seeking grace from their Lord and His pleasure. And when you put off the pilgrims' garb and are clear of the Sacred Territory, you may hunt. And let not the enmity of a people, that they hindered you from the Sacred Mosque, incite you to transgress. And help one another in righteousness and in piety; but help not one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allah; Surely Allah is Severe in punishment.

Who else is is being addressed other than believers in this verse? :huh:

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Salaam, Yiligz.

"Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (5:3)

Does anything seem out of place here? Why or why not?

- Mansab

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This verse is still addressing the believers. Allah has not addressed the disbelievers at all. "Oh you who disbelieve" is not even mentioned in it. The believers are the ones Allah is talking to in this verse, and i don't know where i got my 5:3 from, i got it from some site i can assure you that.

Allah is mentioning to believers that those who have disbelieved are despairing because of "...of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me"

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(salam)

Maybe you missed this post:

[b]

033.055

There is no blame on them in respect of their fathers, nor their brothers, nor their brothers' sons, nor their sisters' sons nor their own women,nor of what their right hands possess; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is a witness of all things.

The pink is addressed to the wives, "and fear/be careful of Allah" is female.

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This verse is still addressing the believers. Allah has not addressed the disbelievers at all. "Oh you who disbelieve" is not even mentioned in it. The believers are the ones Allah is talking to in this verse, and i don't know where i got my 5:3 from, i got it from some site i can assure you that.

Allah is mentioning to believers that those who have disbelieved are despairing because of "...of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me"

OK, well that's not what I'm talking about. "...This day...." (those two sentences) were revealed in the last year of the Prophet's (a.s.) life, whereas the rest of the verse was revealed much earlier. They are contextually different in the sense that they are independent of one another and have different reasons of revelation.

Do you accept this?

Also, brother Link has shown you other similar verses above.

- Mansab

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The pink is addressed to the wives, "and fear/be careful of Allah" is female.

it could have been addressed to anyone but since someone is already addressed in the preceeding part of the verse it is referring to them.

OK, well that's not what I'm talking about. "...This day...." (those two sentences) were revealed in the last year of the Prophet's (a.s.) life, whereas the rest of the verse was revealed much earlier. They are contextually different in the sense that they are independent of one another and have different reasons of revelation.

Do you accept this?

no i don't. Thats a single verse and it was definitely addressed as a whole unless you are one of those who say that chronological order of Quran also meant that surahs were all scrambled like a jigsaw puzzle and Imam Ali couldn't even complete the job of completing the puzzle.

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no i don't. Thats a single verse and it was definitely addressed as a whole unless you are one of those who say that chronological order of Quran also meant that surahs were all scrambled like a jigsaw puzzle and Imam Ali couldn't even complete the job of completing the puzzle.

Are you out of your mind? It was not addressed as a whole. Go read the history of the revelation.

It is a unanimous accepted FACT that the verses of the Qur'an are not compiled in chronological order. Bro, you need to get some research done, it appears as if you are speaking your blind opinion on everything...

Allah has described people like you clearly in the Qur'an:

"...then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation." (3:7)

- Mansab

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if the verses of quran are not ordered chronologically and they are all jumbled up, the infallibility of Quran comes into question as well. If you are saying that two verses make up a single verse, say 33:33 or 33:55, how can you claim that "Quran is perfect"?

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if the verses of quran are not ordered chronologically and they are all jumbled up, the infallibility of Quran comes into question as well. If you are saying that two verses make up a single verse, say 33:33 or 33:55, how can you claim that "Quran is perfect"?

Illogical argument. Allah has ordered Rasoolullah (a.s.) to compile the Qur'an in this fashion.

You should read some history and realize that there are certain verses which came down before others, but they are not in chronological order in the Qur'an. It's clear that you have been speaking your blind opinions in this thread, and this fact has been exposed now because you have shown us that you believe in something entirely incorrect, no offense intended.

Before arguing, you should absorb the knowledge presented to you and ponder on its significance instead of engaging in a vain discussion which you are not benefiting from, and you are not allowing others to benefit from.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri
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if the verses of quran are not ordered chronologically and they are all jumbled up, the infallibility of Quran comes into question as well. If you are saying that two verses make up a single verse, say 33:33 or 33:55, how can you claim that "Quran is perfect"?

Brother, I believe you are talking with your own logic and have not read much about Islamic books etc.

The first revelation that the Prophet Muhammad received is in the first verses from Sura al-'alaq (96:1-3, according to others 1-5):

'Read in the name of your Lord, who created, created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is most bountiful. (He who taught) the use of the pen taught man which he knew not.'

Why is this not placed as the first verse in Quran, if it is in order of chronology?

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Illogical argument. Allah has ordered Rasoolullah (a.s.) to compile the Qur'an in this fashion.

You should read some history and realize that there are certain verses which came down before others, but they are not in chronological order in the Qur'an. It's clear that you have been speaking your blind opinions in this thread, and this fact has been exposed now because you have shown us that you believe in something entirely incorrect, no offense intended.

Before arguing, you should absorb the knowledge presented to you and ponder on its significance instead of engaging in a vain discussion which you are not benefiting from, and you are not allowing others to benefit from.

Brother, I believe you are talking with your own logic and have not read much about Islamic books etc.

The first revelation that the Prophet Muhammad received is in the first verses from Sura al-'alaq (96:1-3, according to others 1-5):

'Read in the name of your Lord, who created, created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is most bountiful. (He who taught) the use of the pen taught man which he knew not.'

Why is this not placed as the first verse in Quran, if it is in order of chronology?

I know all about chronology. I know when the first one was released (revealed) for the world to view. What i am talking about is the the supposed addition of a verse of Quran to an old verse of Quran and considering them to be a single verse. What i am talking about is interpreting the verses of Quran to suit one's beliefs.

what i am talking about people like siraat... in this forum who believes in the modification of Quran and verses so much that Surah Wilaya and Nurayn are the verses of Quran edited out by Omar and Abu bakr, supposedly.

For more,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_of_Wilaya_and_Nurayn

On authority of Ja’far Ibn Muhammad that he said: the Qur’an was compiled by none but the Imam and the Qur’an whom (Archangel) Gabriel revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) was of 17000 verses2.

On authority of Abul-Hasan Ibn Madai that he said: Commander of Believers recited “O Messenger! proclaim the (Message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord concerning the Caliphate of Ali. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His Mission.” (Holy Qur’an 5:67), I said: is it revealed? He said: yes

ibid., Volume 1, page 412.

Was the part which is emboldened part of Quran as well, since editing of old verses is quite a common theme for you people?

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if the verses of quran are not ordered chronologically and they are all jumbled up, the infallibility of Quran comes into question as well. If you are saying that two verses make up a single verse, say 33:33 or 33:55, how can you claim that "Quran is perfect"?
I know all about chronology. I know when the first one was released (revealed) for the world to view.

Do you stand corrected?

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i knew that the first surah was placed in the 96th one since Usman messed the Quran up but thats "the part of the divine plan" and thats "how Allah intended it to be in the first place"

What i didn't know was that only particular verses of the quran which supports shia beliefs were the ones appended. I also didn't know that verses in the surah are not set up chronologically, which means the whole quran is out of context everywhere, supposedly.

Funny how it seems how far people would go to prove their religion is right but still wouldn't go one step further as to say whether the holy text was edited by the enemies of "Ahlul Bayt of Prophet" to hide their claim to the caliphate. You want to stay mainstream yet you want to distinguish yourself from the rest of the crop....[Edited Out]..crop... not gonna happen.. you will be counted amongst the 72 sects... the only one distinguished enough are the ones going all out in support of Ahlul Bayt Ali..

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