Khufu : Firaun Of The Holy Qur'an

Al-Afza · April 19, 2008

Salam...

After viewing archaeologist Bob Brier's narration of a National Geographic special regarding the ancient Egyptian pyramids, a startling discovery or revelation

came about to those viewers who are well-versed with the Holy Qur'an...

The key to the positive identification of the Pharoah of the Judeo-Christian scriptures being Seti I or Ramses II is wholly contradicted by the very word of Almighty Allah(swt) himself in the Holy Qur'an...

Allah(swt) mentions BY NAME the chief architect of Pharoah/Firaun in HAMAN at three different places in the Qur'an ...

Here is a Wikipedia excerpted article that concurs with some of the subject matter by Bob Brier in that National Geographical special...

It is believed the pyramid was built as a tomb for Fourth dynasty Egyptian pharaoh Khufu and constructed over a 20 year period concluding around 2560 BC. Khufu's vizier, Hemon, or Hemiunu, is believed by some to be the architect of the Great Pyramid.

The sarcophagus of the King's Chamber was hollowed out of a single piece of Red Aswan granite and has been found to be too large to fit through the passageway leading to the chamber. Whether the sarcophagus was ever intended to house a body is unknown. It is too short to accommodate a medium height individual without the bending of the knees, a technique not practiced in Egyptian burial, and no lid was ever found. The King's Chamber contains two small shafts that ascend out of the pyramid. These shafts were once thought to have been used for ventilation, but this idea was eventually abandoned leaving Egyptologists to now conclude they were instead used for ceremonial purposes. It is now thought that they were to allow the Pharaoh's spirit to rise up and out to heaven.

In the Qur'an, Allah(swt) relates how Firaun asked Haman (i.e. Hemon or Hemiunu) to build him a tower so tall that he may see for himself the God of Musa(as)...

The Great Pyramid at Giza was the TALLEST building on earth for over 3800 years until the completion of the Lincoln Cathedral circa 1300 A.D.

This places the story of the Exodus of the Bani Israel not circa 1200 B.C. but 1400 years EARLIER to circa 2600 B.C. !!

With Khufu, not Seti I, Ramses II or Merneptah, as the Firaun of the Holy Qur'an, the Bible and the Torah.

More excerpted article on Pharoah Khufu from the easily accessible Wikipedia :

Khufu was the son of King Sneferu and Queen Hetepheres. Unlike his father, Khufu is remembered as a cruel and ruthless pharaoh in later folklore. Khufu had nine sons, one of whom, Djedefra, was his immediate successor. He also had fifteen daughters, one of whom would later become Queen Hetepheres II.

Khufu came to his throne in his twenties, and reigned for about 23 years, which is the number ascribed to him by the Turin King List. Other sources from much later periods suggest a significantly longer reign: Manetho gives him a reign of 65 years, and Herodotus states that he reigned fifty years. Since 2000, two dates have been discovered from his reign. An inscription containing his highest regnal year, the "Year of the 17th Count of Khufu", first mentioned by Flinders Petrie in an 1883 book and then lost to historians, was rediscovered by Zahi Hawass in 2001 in one of the relieving chambers within this king's pyramid. Secondly, in 2003, the "Year after the 13th cattle count" of Khufu was found on a rock inscription at the Dakhla Oasis in the Sahara.

He started building his pyramid at Giza, the first to be built in this place. Based on inscriptional evidence, it is also likely that he led military expeditions into the Sinai, Nubia and Libya.

The Westcar Papyrus, which was written well after his reign during the Middle Kingdom or later, depicts the pharaoh being told magical tales by his sons Khafra and Djedefra. This story cycle depicts Khufu as mean and cruel, and is ultimately frustrated in his attempts to ensure that his dynasty survives past his two sons. Whether or not this story cycle is true is unknown, But Khufu's negative reputation lasted at least until the time of Herodotus, who was told further stories of that king's cruelty to his people and to his own family in order to ensure the construction of his pyramid. What is known for certain is that his funerary cult lasted until the 26th Dynasty, which was one of the last native-Egyptian royal dynasties, almost 2,000 years after his death.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Al-Afza

Gepetto_Zapata · April 19, 2008

I always taught that Firaun of Quran was Ramses II, anyways...this ^ could be true...

Maybe that's why they aligned the pyramids with the stars...to ascend and see God better...Lol :lol: ...Astaghfirullah...

yonus · April 19, 2008

Khfu , Khafra3 ,Manqara3 ,Ramsis II Quran didnt concern about names .

Al-Afza · April 19, 2008

Khfu , Khafra3 ,Manqara3 ,Ramsis II Quran didnt concern about names .

Salam...

You are missing the whole point of the post, brother...

The very implication of Allah(swt) mentioning the name of Khufu's architect Haman (i.e. Hemiunu or Hemon) is PROOF of the AUTHENTICITY of the Holy Qur'an...

And silences all those who claim that the earlier accounts of the Anbiya also related in the Bible and the Torah were COPIED or BORROWED by our Holy Prophet Muhammad al-Mustafa(saww)...That they were possibly related to our Nabih from the Meccan Christian Waraqah b. Nawfal...

The compilers of the Bible at the Council of Nicaea adopted the account of the Septuagint of the 70 Greek scholars who first translated into Greek, the ancient monotheist scriptures and oral traditions of the Middle Easterners.

They recorded the Pharoah to be TWO people--the Pharoah of the Oppression : Seti I or Ramses II or the Pharoah of the Exodus : Ramses II or Merneptah.

No mention at all of the account of the largest TOWER being built to see "Musa's God" or its architect Haman (i.e. Hemon)...

Who but Allah(swt) would know the identity of the REAL Pharoah/Firaun of Nabih Musa's and Harun's(pbut) time...!?

Do you NOW see the point being made in the original post ??

It is the undisputable AUTHENTICITY of the Holy Qur'an as the very word of Almighty Allah(swt) from an archaeological and historical standpoint as well.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Al-Afza

**.InshAllah.** · April 19, 2008

salam

Thanks for the interesting posts. This article: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con...l/haman.html#4a mentions Hemon (Khufus' master architect) as one possibility, but most of the article discusses another 'Haman' who lived around the time that Moses is believed to have lived. Khufus' Hemon lived during the Old Kingdom period, whereas Moses supposedly lived later. The article mentions a (relatively) new discovery that there was a person named Haman during this period that was ''The chief of the workers in the stone quarries''. This is completely inline with what the Quran says about Haman, and such details are not found in the Bible, so it cannot be said that the Quran copied from the Bible. I'll quote part of the conclusion, although you have to read the whole thing to fully understand:

Wreszinski's Aegyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien published in 1906 CE noted a hieroglyph engraved on a stela kept at the K.K. Hof Museum in Vienna, Austria, contained the letters hmn-h. About thirty years later while discussing this name, Ranke in his Die Ã„gyptischen Personennamen was unsure what the last letter "h" in the name hmn-h represented. Therefore, he designated the entry as "hmn-h(?)" suggesting as if "h" was not in actuality part of the name. If we drop the doubtful last letter, the name can be rendered as "hemen" or "haman" depending upon the vowel which is inserted to ensure an effective pronunciation of the hieroglyph. It is interesting to note that the profession of this person hmn-h(?) in German reads Vorsteherder Steinbruch arbeiter - "The chief / overseer of the workers in the stone-quarries" (Fig. 4). This name is listed as masculine (Fig. 5) and it is from the New Kingdom Period (Fig. 4). The generally accepted theory appears to be that Moses lived during the reign of King Rameses II or his successor Merenptah in the New Kingdom Period. The Qur'an suggests that Haman was a master of construction and this name appears to fit very well in almost all respects. However, it is unclear whether Haman mentioned in the hieroglyphs is actually the Hamam mentioned in the Qur'an. More research would throw some light on this issue.
The historicity of the name Haman provides yet another sharp reminder to those that adhere to the precarious theory that parts of the Qur'an were allegedly copied from the Bible. If Egyptian hieroglyphs were long dead and the Book of Esther a work of fiction, then from where did the Prophet Muhammad obtain his information? The Qur'an answers:
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by one mighty in Power. [Qur'an 53:2-5]
It is interesting to note that the meaning of the word ayah, usually translated as 'verse' in the Qur'an, also means a sign and a proof. The reference to Haman and other facts concerning ancient Egypt in the Qur'an suggests a special reflection.
And Allah knows best!

Christian missionaries and others have long said that Prophet Muhammad [sawa] copied and changed the story from the Bible. (IN the bible it says Haman was a minister of a persian king who lived 1000+ years after moses [as] - no mention of a Haman living during Musas' time who was head of the stone workers)

ws

ps, if you have the national geographic article you mentioned then id love to read it.

Jazakallah.

EDIT: Thank you ariella for pointing out my mistake. Ive corrected it.

Edited April 19, 2008 by .InshAllah.

Ariella · April 19, 2008

The "Haman" of Megillah Esther lived well after Moses, not before, as the brother said above.

Al-Afza · April 20, 2008

salam
ps, if you have the national geographic article you mentioned then id love to read it.
Jazakallah.

Wa Alaykum as-Salam...

It was not a NG article but a documentary series titled "Pyramids, tombs, etc." It had just aired on the NG channel on the night of 17th/18th April...

Hosted by Bob Brier...The same Brier who came up with the book about the "murder" of Tutankhamun.

The one thing that is most convincing in Khufu's favour as being THE Firaun is that Ramses II, even though the greatest monument builder of all the pharoahs, never built a TOWER like the one Allah(swt) mentions where He relates how Firaun had commanded Haman (i.e. Hemiunu/Hemon) to build...For example :

28:38

And Pharaoh said: O chiefs! I know not that ye have a god other than me, so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud; and set up for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey the god of Moses; and lo! I deem him of the liars.

40:36

And Firon said: O Haman! build for me a tower that I may attain the means of access,

40:37

The means of access to the heavens, then reach the god of Musa, and I surely think him to be a liar. And thus the evil of his deed was made fairseeming to Firon, and he was turned away from the way; and the struggle of Firon was not (to end) in aught but destruction.

Note that the Great Pyramid is no longer thought of by many Egyptologists as a funerary monument for Khufu...

There are no inscriptions in the King's Chamber whatsoever...and never have been. Not even chiselled out as in the cases of so many pharoahs' tombs by later pharoahs.

Also, the King's Chamber of Khufu's Great Pyramid has the narrow pathway way too narrow for any sarcophagus to pass through. The lidless semi-sarcophagi is also too small for even a medium size body to fit in.

Also, Ramses II was probably one of the most admired and beloved pharaohs of Egypt...Khufu (Cheops) WAS NOT. His cruel reputation fits in with a true ZALIM

which Allah(swt) mentions in the Qur'an.

In my mind, even though it is during the Old Kingdom of the 4th Dynasty, Khufu was Firaun. And his Grand Vizier Hemiunu/Hemon was Haman. Also, in Brier's documentary, he mentioned that Hemiunu/Hemon was a member of the Royal Family and a cousin of Khufu. This is not mentioned by Allah(swt) in the Qur'an.

The name "Haman" in the Qur'an is in the Medieval Arabic language as opposed to the Hieratic/Musri language of the Ancient Egyptians...The Egyptians called their land KEMYT from the word 'kemi'...'Kemi' being what they called the dark, fertile soil around the banks of the Nile River. In Hieratic/Musri, Haman's name would be pronounced "Hemiunu"...

Also, Ramses II lived till the age of 96 by majority accounts, being born in 1320 B.C. and having died in 1224 B.C.; other dates of his birth year being 1317 B.C./1315 B.C./1310 B.C./1309 B.C.

His mummified corpse has a full head of hair and remarkably well-preserved teeth but absolutely no sign of salt-water erosion which would have occured if he was the pharoah who was drowned by Allah(swt)...Just based on this forensic evidence, Ramses II is most certainly RULED OUT as Firaun.

Khufu's mummy is yet to be found but may be soon as one of the ayats or signs of Allah(swt) which are supposed to appear shortly before Qiyamah...As promised by Allah(swt) in the Qur'an. We know that Dr. Hawass and numerous Egyptologists are still eagerly searching for Khufu's corpse.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Al-Afza

**.InshAllah.** · April 21, 2008

salam

Khufus pyramid is quite interesting. You said that they dont regard its as a funerary monument anymore - do you know what they do regard it as?

The only issue I have with this is that the Quran says 'so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud' but the pyramid is not from baked mud but limestone.

**.InshAllah.** · April 21, 2008

Theres another problem with saying its Khufu, and this is that the Quran refers to the leader as Pharaoh, whereas this title was only first used during the New Kingdom. If it was Khufu, then Moses would be during the Old Kingdom.

This is another great article from islamic-awareness : http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con...sephdetail.html

It compares biblical use of Pharaoh with Quranic. The Quran only uses it to refer to the leader at the time of Moses, but when it comes to the Leader at Josephs time it doesnt call him Pharaoh but 'king'. On the other hand the bible calls the leaders at the times of Abraham, Joseph and Moses 'Pharaoh'. I'll past the conclusion:

Conclusions
According to modern linguist research the word "Pharaoh" comes from the Egyptian per-aa, meaning the "Great House" and originally referred to the palace rather than the king himself. The word was used by the writers of the Old Testament and has since become a widely adopted title for all the kings of Egypt. However, the Egyptians did not call their ruler "Pharaoh" until the 18th Dynasty (c. 1552 - 1295 BC) in the New Kingdom Period. In the language of the hieroglyphs, "Pharaoh" was first used to refer to the king during the reign of Amenhophis IV (c. 1352 - 1338 BC). We know that such a designation was correct in the time of Moses but the use of the word Pharaoh in the story of Joseph is an anachronism, as under the rule of the Hyksos there was no "Pharaoh." Similarly, the events related in Genesis 12 concerning Abraham (c. 2000-1700 BCE) could not have occurred in a time when the sovereign of Egypt was called Pharaoh, and this exposes yet another anachronism. In several chapters of Genesis we find the same error frequently recurring – some ninety-six times in total. What is clear is that the biblical writers composed their texts under the influences of the knowledge of their time, when the king of Egypt was usually designated as "Pharaoh". The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible explains the reasons of such discrepancies with modern knowledge:
The frank attitude toward the stories about Egypt in Genesis and Exodus is that folk memory had retained the essentials of great Hebrew experience but had later clothed that memory with some details imperfectly recollected and some circumstantial details borrowed from later times and conditions.[66]
The situation is entirely different in the Qur'an. As is the case with the Bible, reference to the sovereign of ancient Egypt is found throughout various chapters of the Qur'an. A careful study of the minutiae of each narrative reveals some compelling differences. With regard to the Egyptian king who was a contemporary of Joseph, the Qur'an uses the title "King" (Arabic, Malik); he is never once addressed as Pharaoh. As for the king who ruled during the time of Moses, the Qur'an repeatedly calls him Pharaoh (Arabic, Fir'awn).
These facts that we have mentioned were unknown at the time of the Qur'anic Revelation. The only source of knowledge of the religious past were the Bible-based stories in circulation. From the time of the Old Testament to the Qur'an, the only document mankind possessed on these ancient stories was the Bible itself. Furthermore, the knowledge of the old Egyptian hieroglyphs had been totally forgotten until they were finally deciphered in the 19th century CE.
The historicity of the Pharaonic title provides yet another sharp reminder to those that adhere to the precarious theory that parts of the Qur'an were allegedly copied from the Bible. If Egyptian hieroglyphs were long dead and the biblical account an inaccurate work of folk memory, then from where did the Prophet Muhammad obtain his information? The Qur'an answers:
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by one mighty in Power. [Qur'an 53:2-5]
It is interesting to note that the meaning of the word ayah, usually translated as 'verse' in the Qur'an, also means a sign and a proof. The reference to Pharaoh and other facts concerning ancient Egypt in the Qur'an suggests a special reflection.

And Allah knows best!

Al-Afza · April 21, 2008

Theres another problem with saying its Khufu, and this is that the Quran refers to the leader as Pharaoh, whereas this title was only first used during the New Kingdom. If it was Khufu, then Moses would be during the Old Kingdom.
This is another great article from islamic-awareness : http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con...sephdetail.html
It compares biblical use of Pharaoh with Quranic. The Quran only uses it to refer to the leader at the time of Moses, but when it comes to the Leader at Josephs time it doesnt call him Pharaoh but 'king'. On the other hand the bible calls the leaders at the times of Abraham, Joseph and Moses 'Pharaoh'. I'll past the conclusion:
And Allah knows best!

Salam..

From the Encyclopaedia Britannica regarding the etymology of the word "pharoah" :

(from Egyptian per Ê¿aa, ï¿½great houseï¿½), originally, the royal palace in ancient Egypt; the word came to be used as a synonym for the Egyptian king under the New Kingdom (starting in the 18th dynasty, 1539ï¿½1292 bc), and by the 22nd dynasty (c. 945ï¿½c. 730 bc) it had been adopted as an epithet of respect. The term has since evolved into a generic name for all ancient Egyptian kings, although it was never formally the kingï¿½s title. In official documents, the full title of the Egyptian king consisted of five names, each preceded by one of the following titles: Horus; Two Ladies; Golden Horus; King of Upper and Lower Egypt and Lord of the Double Land; and Son of Re and Lord of the Diadems. The last name was given him at birth, the others at coronation.

From Wikipedia on the word "pharoah" and an early compilation of those "pharoahs"...Note that the term 'pharoah' or 'fir'awn'[Arabic] is a general, figuratively used term for the kings of Ancient Egypt. Not to be taken too literally... :

Pharaoh is the name for the official of kingship, and religious/political leader in the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt. Meaning "High House", it originally referred to the king's palace, but the meaning loosened over the course of Egyptian history until it became interchangeable with the Egyptian word for king. Although the rulers of Egypt were generally male, the pharaoh was used on the rare occasions when a female ruled. Such rulers were believed to be the incarnation of Horus.

The term pharaoh ultimately derives from a compound word represented as pr-`3, used only in larger phrases like smr pr-`3 'Courtier of the High House', with specific reference to the buildings of the court or palace itself. From the Twelfth Dynasty onward the word appears in a wish formula 'Great House, may it live, prosper, and be in health', but again only with reference to the buildings and not the person.

The earliest instance where pr-`3 is used specifically to address the king is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) in the mid-Eighteenth Dynasty (1550-1292 BC) which is addressed to 'Pharaoh, all life, prosperity, and health!'.

From the Nineteenth Dynasty onwards pr-`3 on its own was used as regularly as hm.f 'His Majesty'. The term therefore evolved from one specifically referring to a building to a respectful designation for the king or prince, particularly by the Twenty-Second Dynasty and Twenty-Third Dynasty. By this time, the Late Egyptian word is reconstructed to have been pronounced *par-Ê•oÊ” whence comes Ancient Greek Ï†Î±ÏÎ±ÏŽ pharaÅ and then Late Latin pharaÅ. From the latter, English obtained the word "Pharaoh". Over time, *par-Ê•oÊ” evolved into Sahidic Coptic prro â²¡â²£Ì…â²£â²Ÿ and then rro (by mistaking p- as the definite article prefix "the" from Ancient Egyptian p3).

A similar development, with a word originally denoting an attribute of the king eventually coming to refer to the person, can be discerned in a later period with the Arabic term Sultan.

Legendary period

In the texts of the Palermo, Turin and Manetho king lists, there are different versions of names of 8 god kings that ruled Egypt before Menes. Mesdahoma was the greatest pharaoh of them all, he was 17 years old when he became king.

Archaic period

The Archaic period includes the Early Dynastic Period, when Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt were ruled as separate kingdoms, and the First and Second Dynasties

Early dynastic: Lower Egypt

Lower Egypt, known as the Black Land, consisted of the northern Nile and the Nile Delta. The following list may not be complete:

Name Comments Dates

Tiu ï¿½ ?

Thesh ï¿½ ?

Hsekiu ï¿½ ?

Wazner ï¿½ c. 3100 BC?

Early dynastic: Upper Egypt

Upper Egypt, known as the Red Land, consisted of the southern Nile and the deserts. The following list may not be complete (there are many more of uncertain existence):

Name Comments Dates

Scorpion I Oldest tomb at Umm el-Qa'ab had scorpion insignia c. 3200 BC?

Iry-Hor kingship uncertain c. 3150 BC?

Ka ï¿½ c. 3100 BC

King Scorpion Potentially pronounced Serqet, but uncertain; possibly the same person as Narmer. c. 3100 BC

Narmer The king who combined Upper and Lower Egypt. c. 3100 BC

First Dynasty

The First Dynasty ruled from c.3050 BC to 2890 BC.

Name Comments Dates

Menes Potentially the same person as Narmer, Hor-Aha, Serket II, or any combination of the three. contingent upon identity

Hor-Aha Arguably the unifier of Upper and Lower Egypt. c. 3050 BC

Djer ï¿½ 41 years

Merneith Regent for Den ï¿½

Djet ï¿½ 23 years

Den ï¿½ 14 to 20.1 years

Anedjib ï¿½ 10 years

Semerkhet ï¿½ 9 years

Qa'a ï¿½ 2916?ï¿½2890

Second Dynasty

The Second Dynasty ruled from 2890 to 2686 BC.

Name Comments Dates

Hotepsekhemwy ï¿½ 2890ï¿½?

Raneb ï¿½ 39 years

Nynetjer ï¿½ 40 years

Wneg ï¿½ 8 years

Senedj ï¿½ 20 years

Seth-Peribsen ï¿½ 17 years

Sekhemib-Perenmaat ï¿½

Khasekhem(wy) ?ï¿½2686 BC 17 to 18 years

Old Kingdom

The Old Kingdom is the period in the third millennium BC when Egypt attained its first continuous peak of civilisational complexity and achievement (the first of three so-called "Kingdom" periods which mark the high points of civilization in the Nile Valley), spanning the period when Egypt was ruled by the Third Dynasty through the Sixth Dynasty (2630ï¿½2151 BC). Many Egyptologists also include the Memphite Seventh and Eighth Dynasties in the Old Kingdom as a continuation of the administration centralised at Memphis. The Old Kingdom was followed by a period of disunity and relative cultural decline referred to by Egyptologists as the First Intermediate Period -- or, as the Egyptians called it, the "first illness."

The royal capital of Egypt during the Old Kingdom was located at Memphis, where Djoser established his court. The Old Kingdom is perhaps best known, however, for the large number of pyramids which were constructed at this time as pharaonic burial places. For this reason, the Old Kingdom is frequently referred to as "the Age of the Pyramids".

Third Dynasty

The Third Dynasty ruled from 2686 to 2613 BC.

Name Comments Dates

Sanakhte ï¿½ 2686-2668

Djoser Had the Step Pyramid constructed by Imhotep 2668ï¿½2649

Sekhemkhet ï¿½ 2649ï¿½2643

Khaba ï¿½ 2643ï¿½2637

Huni ï¿½ 2637ï¿½2613

Fourth Dynasty

The Fourth Dynasty ruled from 2613 to 2498 BC and included the pharaohs who had the Great Pyramids built, Khufu (Cheops), Khafra (Chephren) and Menkaura (Mycerinus).

Nomen (Praenomen) Comments Dates

Sneferu Built the Bent Pyramid, which is a pyramid built at a normal angle at the bottom but drastically changes at the top. He also built the first "true" pyramid, known as the Red Pyramid. Some say that he was buried at the Red Pyramid, while others say that he was buried at the Bent Pyramid. Bones have been found at the Red Pyramid, but there is no evidence that this is Sneferu's body. 2613ï¿½2589

Khufu Greek form: Cheops. Built the great pyramid of Giza. Note that Khufu is spoken of in early sources as being "third" of his family to rule, although there is no known record of a Pharaoh between Sneferu and Khufu. One supposition is that there might have been a very short reign of some elder brother of Khufu, whose inscriptions, name, and monuments have perished for one reason or another. 2589ï¿½2566

Djedefra (Radjedef) ï¿½ 2566ï¿½2558

Khafra Greek form: Chephren His pyramid is the second largest in Giza and has a sphinx as a monument built for him. 2558ï¿½2532

ï¿½ here some authorities insert Bikheris, following Manetho ï¿½

Menkaura Greek form: Mycerinus. His pyramid is the third and smallest in Giza. 2532ï¿½2503

Shepseskaf ï¿½ 2503ï¿½2498

Djedefptah ï¿½ ï¿½

here some authorities insert Thampthis, following Manetho ï¿½ ï¿½

Conclusion : If Allah(swt) would have used Khufu's actual name and not the popularly recognized title 'pharoah' or 'fir'awn'[Arabic], then the argument would have been that Allah(swt) didn't use the word pharoah/firaun but Khufu...How do we know it was the 'Pharoah' Khufu and not some other Khufu....

The debate will go on forever with such nit-picking...Doesn't Allah(swt) use the word MASIH (i.e. Messiah) for Nabih Isa(as) in the Qur'an as well ??

'Masih' is the Arabic adaptation for originally an Aramaic word which was 'Meshiha'. 'Masih' is NOT of the Arabic language but yet is still used by Allah(swt) in the Qur'an...

Edited April 21, 2008 by Al-Afza

Al-Afza · April 21, 2008

salam
Khufus pyramid is quite interesting. You said that they dont regard its as a funerary monument anymore - do you know what they do regard it as?
The only issue I have with this is that the Quran says 'so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud' but the pyramid is not from baked mud but limestone.

Salam...

Excerpted from Wikipedia on this subject :

The sarcophagus of the King's Chamber was hollowed out of a single piece of Red Aswan granite and has been found to be too large to fit through the passageway leading to the chamber. Whether the sarcophagus was ever intended to house a body is unknown. It is too short to accommodate a medium height individual without the bending of the knees, a technique not practiced in Egyptian burial, and no lid was ever found. The King's Chamber contains two small shafts that ascend out of the pyramid. These shafts were once thought to have been used for ventilation, but this idea was eventually abandoned leaving Egyptologists to now conclude they were instead used for ceremonial purposes. It is now thought that they were to allow the Pharaoh's spirit to rise up and out to heaven.

Bob Brier also made the same observances in the Natl Geo documentary "Pyramids, Tombs and Mummies"...

Furthermore, Hemiunu's original diagram had internal narrow passages throughout the Great Pyramid's interior...One such passage was designed to go to the highest level possible below the summit of the Great Pyramid to view the constellations Kochab and Mizar. This was shown in the Brier Natl Geo documentary...

However, Hemiunu never completed those interior designs and they all ended up being sealed off as was the outer casing of the Great Pyramid. It was strongly suggested that that was the work of Khufu's immediate successor Djedefra. Djedefra was responsible for those finishing touches...Also, Djedefra is NOW credited with the construction of the Sphinx. His younger brother Khafre had previously been credited with the building of the Sphinx. The face of the Sphinx, once thought to be that of Khafre, is NOW regarded by Egyptologists as that of KHUFU. Dr. Hawass supports this view as well.

Finally, Khufu's ROYAL SHIP was one of the astounding recent finds of Egyptology...

Again from a Wikipedia article :

The Khufu ship is an intact full-size vessel from Ancient Egypt that was sealed into a pit in the Giza pyramid complex at the foot of the Great Pyramid of Giza around 2,500 BC. The ship was almost certainly built for Khufu (King Cheops), the second pharaoh of the Fourth Dynasty of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.

It is one of the oldest, largest, and best-preserved vessels from antiquity. It measures 43.6 m overall.

The ship was rediscovered in 1954 by Kamal el-Mallakh, undisturbed since it was sealed into a pit carved out of the Giza bedrock. It was built largely of cedar planking in the "shell-first" construction technique and has been reconstructed from more than 1,200 pieces which had been laid in a logical, disassembled order in the pit beside the pyramid.

The history and function of the ship are not precisely known. It is of the type known as a "solar barge", a ritual vessel to carry the resurrected king with the sun god Ra across the heavens. However, it bears some signs of having been used in water, and it is possible that the ship was either a funerary "barge" used to carry the king's embalmed body from Memphis to Giza, or even that Khufu himself used it as a "pilgrimage ship" to visit holy places and that it was then buried for him to use in the afterlife.

The Khufu ship has been on display to the public in a specially built museum at the Giza pyramid complex since 1982.

It is curious that Khufu was the ONLY pharoah in Egypt's history to have HIS ROYAL BARGE buried as a funerary rite !

Could it be that Khufu was on board it when he drowned, pursuing Nabih Musa(as) and the Bani Israil ?? That Khufu sent his hosts of the army charging after the Bani Israil on chariots while he sailed around on his royal barge as it is a faster way to travel, even though a roundabout one via the sea...??

Or that Khufu's royal ship was used to SEARCH for and RETRIEVE his drowned body by his surviving sons ??

These questions only seem to reaffirm that Khufu WAS the Firaun of the Qur'an rather than distance him from that fact...

Edited April 21, 2008 by Al-Afza

Malang Power · April 21, 2008

(Pharaoh said: O Chiefs! No god do I know for you but myself: therefore, o Haman! Light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar! )

( al-qasas, verse 38)

The lofty palace could be the pyramids built by khufu or...

http://www.55a.net/eng/48.htm

Other thing Ramses 2nd's body is preserved. I don't know whether khufu's body is preserved or not? Quran says that the pharoah's body is preserved.

Al-Afza · April 22, 2008

(Pharaoh said: O Chiefs! No god do I know for you but myself: therefore, o Haman! Light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar! )
( al-qasas, verse 38)
The lofty palace could be the pyramids built by khufu or...
http://www.55a.net/eng/48.htm
Other thing Ramses 2nd's body is preserved. I don't know whether khufu's body is preserved or not? Quran says that the pharoah's body is preserved.

Salam...

Ramses II's mummy has been forensically examined time and again with the most modern of equipment by Egyptologists the world over. His body did NOT DIE FROM DROWNING. That is an ESTABLISHED FACT which cannot be disputed whatsoever. In fact, none of the mummies of all the pharoahs that have been found have.

Also, as mentioned in my earlier post, Allah(swt) calls Nabih Isa(as) 'Masih' or 'Messiah'..The Arabic adaptation 'Masih' from the Aramaic 'Mashiha'. There are no recorded documents whatsoever from Nabih Isa's lifetime that state he was called the Messiah. The earliest recorded writings that first mention the word 'messiah' in direct reference to him date from the 2nd Century A.D. ...

Yet Allah(swt) calls Nabih Isa by 'Masih' in the Qur'an. It is quite plausible that Allah(swt) kept up with the times in calling Nabih Isa, MASIH(Messiah) and Khufu, FIR'AWN(Pharoah) although BOTH terms weren't used during their lifetimes but at later dates in history...

Consider some of these points :

--First of all, let me correct myself from my earlier post in that there were no cavalry in Egypt during the Old Kingdom. So there could be no charging chariots of Firawn(Pharoah) after Nabih Musa, Nabih Harun and the Bani Israil. Horses were brought to Egypt centuries later by the Hyksos rulers from Canaan who invaded and ruled Egypt during the second intermediate period.

10:90

And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).

The above verse of Surah Yunus[Jonas] states that Firawn and his hosts pursued the Bani Israil but NOT HOW...Allah(swt) never mentions that CHARIOTS or Pharoah's CAVALRY pursued the Bani Israil. Since in Egypt at that period there existed only the naval fleet and infantry which comprised its armed forces, Khufu would have pursued the Bani Israil through his naval fleet, not his infantry alone as it would have been too slow to catch up to them.

2:50

And when We parted the sea for you, so We saved you and drowned the followers of Firon and you watched by.

In archaic terminology, the term 'parting' or 'divided'(faraqna) of the sea was also applied to TIDAL WAVES of immense size. In modern times, we call them 'tidal waves' but in ancient times, they were described as the 'parting' or 'division' of the sea...

Sure, Allah(swt) could literally part the sea in TWO and uphold the separated currents as depicted through special effects in the 1956 Hollywood film THE TEN COMMANDMENTS but logically, why would He ??

Can you imagine the Bani Israil being made to WALK through the bottom of the Red Sea floor filled with sea creatures and rough, sharp coral ??

Do you think Allah(swt) would make them go through all that ? It would be impractical to say the least...And remembering the 1956 film, when the Israelites crossed the BOTTOM FLOOR of the Red Sea, DUST arose from it !! A huge technical error on the part of filmmaker Cecil B. DeMille's special effects department.

Allah(swt) does NOT specifically state this in the Qur'an but states that the Bani Israil were brought across the sea or passed through it...They obviously did so on some type of vessels such as large rafts which they may have built...

They certainly didn't walk across it...

When Firawn and his naval fleet were about to catch up to them, it is wholly plausible that Allah(swt) 'parted' the sea by causing an immense tidal wave which drowned them all, leaving no trace of them EXCEPT Firawn and his royal ship. The ONLY logistical way Firawn would have had his body preserved even though he drowned would have been that he sought refuge inside the royal cabin of his barge just BEFORE it capsized. Also, that moment of pause when the tidal wave was approaching gave Firawn enough time to do this just after he uttered the following :

"I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him)."

That is why Pharoah Khufu's royal ship was surgically disassembled and buried as part of a funerary rite beside Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza. It was buried there for over 4500 years before being discovered in 1954 A.D. !

What other plausible reason would an entire ship be preserved for burial when NO OTHER ROYAL SHIP of ANY Egyptian pharoah was...Khufu's is still the ONLY such one on record. When Khufu's sons Djedefra and Khafre arrived at the scene, the only thing retrieved was Khufu's ship with his corpse drowned inside the enclosed royal cabin. Allah(swt) did clearly state :

10:91

What! now! and indeed you disobeyed before and you were of the mischief-makers.

10:92

"This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"

Khufu's body and his royal ship were recovered by his sons Djedefra and Khafre and buried formally. Khufu's barge was finally discovered after 4500 years and Khufu's corpse has yet to be found...It is probably buried nearby his Great Pyramid or the Sphinx (built by his son Djedefra)...

When Egyptologists do find Khufu's corpse, forensic examination (including a CT scan) will indicate whether he died by DROWNING or not. If he did, then the world found its Firawn(Pharoah) of the Oppression/Exodus.

As for the verse about Firawn commanding Haman to kindle a fire and bake bricks...There is an explanation that 'kindling a fire and bake bricks' could be one of numerous forms of ceremonial rites performed in Ancient Egypt. This could have been an inaugural ceremony to launch the limestone tower in which Pharoah Khufu could view "Musa's God"...Note that even in the original Arabic verse it does not join the two transitive verbs...They remain TWO SEPARATE ACTIONS : Fire kindled to bake mud AND then build me a TOWER. The verse does NOT state that the TOWER or BUILDING was MADE FROM the baked mud of the kindled fire.

Remember also that of all the kings of Egypt, Khufu remains the biggest mystery because there ARE NO HIEROGLYPHIC INSCRIPTIONS about his reign or exploits AT ALL from his reign...Nor from the reigns of his sons Djedefra and Khafre. Nor throughout the ENTIRE Old Kingdom period.

The earliest recorded biographical narrative about Khufu were from the Middle Kingdom period onward. This seems most odd that the king who ordered the building of what would be the worlds tallest structure for over 3800 years HAD NOTHING TO INSCRIBE ABOUT HIMSELF OR HIS EXPLOITS !

Nor did his succeeding SONS ! Very strange indeed. And only 3 or 4 statues of Khufu survive to this day; the one fully intact being a miniature one at that.

What would Khufu or his sons inscribe about his reign ?? That he opposed his subjects, the Bani Israil, and his fosterson Musa defeated his magicians and asked his God to bring down the plagues upon Egypt...And that Khufu was vanquished in the end by Musa's God ???

These are not things Khufu nor his sons Djedefra and Khafre would inscribe !

When Inshallah Khufu's corpse is rediscovered by the world, I believe it will prove that he was the Firawn mentioned in the Qur'an by Allah(swt).

Wa Rahmatullahe Wa Barakatuhu.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Al-Afza

Malang Power · April 22, 2008

Salam...
Ramses II's mummy has been forensically examined time and again with the most modern of equipment by Egyptologists the world over. His body did NOT DIE FROM DROWNING. That is an ESTABLISHED FACT which cannot be disputed whatsoever. In fact, none of the mummies of all the pharoahs that have been found have.

Ramses II's mummy was taken back and buried in the Kings valley after being drowned, where it dried up and now shows no signs of drowning, that is IF it doesn't show any sign of drowning. I bet it does.

Consider some of these points :
--First of all, let me correct myself from my earlier post in that there were no cavalry in Egypt during the Old Kingdom. So there could be no charging chariots of Firawn(Pharoah) after Nabih Musa, Nabih Harun and the Bani Israil. Horses were brought to Egypt centuries later by the Hyksos rulers from Canaan who invaded and ruled Egypt during the second intermediate period.

I consider bible and Quran to be more reliable than you. You are just assuming things.

10:90
And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
The above verse of Surah Yunus[Jonas] states that Firawn and his hosts pursued the Bani Israil but NOT HOW...Allah(swt) never mentions that CHARIOTS or Pharoah's CAVALRY pursued the Bani Israil. Since in Egypt at that period there existed only the naval fleet and infantry which comprised its armed forces, Khufu would have pursued the Bani Israil through his naval fleet, not his infantry alone as it would have been too slow to catch up to them.

Excuse me? Are you completely denying a well established story of three religions ?

Surah 2, al-Baqarah, The Cow
(50) And when We split the sea for you and rescued you, but drowned Pharaoh’s people whilst
you looked on.

In archaic terminology, the term 'parting' or 'divided'(faraqna) of the sea was also applied to TIDAL WAVES of immense size. In modern times, we call them 'tidal waves' but in ancient times, they were described as the 'parting' or 'division' of the sea...
Sure, Allah(swt) could literally part the sea in TWO and uphold the separated currents as depicted through special effects in the 1956 Hollywood film THE TEN COMMANDMENTS but logically, why would He ??

Why not? How many miracles did Hadhrat Musa perform to make Firaun believe in Allah? :rolleyes:

Can you imagine the Bani Israil being made to WALK through the bottom of the Red Sea floor filled with sea creatures and rough, sharp coral ??

They had slippers.

Do you think Allah(swt) would make them go through all that ? It would be impractical to say the least...And remembering the 1956 film, when the Israelites crossed the BOTTOM FLOOR of the Red Sea, DUST arose from it !! A huge technical error on the part of filmmaker Cecil B. DeMille's special effects department.

lol its an idea of what might have happened but Allah can perform infinite miracles that is not hard upon him. I am sure you are going to deny the miracle of birth of jesus and the splitting up of the moon as well since they are just redundant and of no use, these miracles :squeez:

Allah(swt) does NOT specifically state this in the Qur'an but states that the Bani Israil were brought across the sea or passed through it...They obviously did so on some type of vessels such as large rafts which they may have built...
They certainly didn't walk across it...

Actually you are entitled to your interpretations but the overall consensus is that they walked across the sea. It is clear in Quran that the sea was split up.

When Firawn and his naval fleet were about to catch up to them, it is wholly plausible that Allah(swt) 'parted' the sea by causing an immense tidal wave which drowned them all, leaving no trace of them EXCEPT Firawn and his royal ship.

The verses you quoted say that Firawn died in this incident.

The ONLY logistical way Firawn would have had his body preserved even though he drowned would have been that he sought refuge inside the royal cabin of his barge just BEFORE it capsized. Also, that moment of pause when the tidal wave was approaching gave Firawn enough time to do this just after he uttered the following :
"I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him)."

Or that he might said that in his heart as normal people can do.

That is why Pharoah Khufu's royal ship was surgically disassembled and buried as part of a funerary rite beside Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza. It was bured there for nearly 4000 years before being discovered in 1954 A.D. !

I must admit this is interesting. How many men could this royal ship have held?

What other plausible reason would an entire ship be preserved for burial when NO OTHER ROYAL SHIP of ANY Egyptian pharoah was...Khufu's is still the ONLY such one on record. When Khufu's sons Djedefra and Khafre arrived at the scene, the only thing retrieved was Khufu's ship with his corpse drowned inside the enclosed royal cabin. Allah(swt) did clearly state :

Do we have evidences of ships being buried in the red sea, a whole fleet of it, the army of Khufu?

10:92
"This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
Khufu's body and his royal ship were recovered by his sons Djedefra and Khafre and buried formally. Khufu's barge was finally discovered after 4000 years and Khufu's corpse has yet to be found...It is probably buried nearby his Great Pyramid or the Sphinx (built by his son Djedefra)...

Ramses II's mummy is a symbol for all the humans beings nowadays. If or when Khufu's mummy is recovered, then we can have a better idea as to who really was the Pharoah of Quran.

When Egyptologists do find Khufu's corpse, forensic examination (including a CT scan) will indicate whether he died by DROWNING or not. If he did, then the world found its Firawn(Pharoah) of the Oppression/Exodus.

There's a big IF before when.

As for the verse about Firawn commanding Haman to kindle a fire and bake bricks...There is an explanation that 'kindling a fire and bake bricks' could be one of numerous forms of ceremonial rites performed in Ancient Egypt. This could have been an inaugural ceremony to launch the limestone tower in which Pharoah Khufu could view "Musa's God"...Note that even in the original Arabic verse it does not join the two transitive verbs...They remain TWO SEPARATE ACTIONS : Fire kindled to bake mud AND then build me a TOWER.

I think Ramses II built city of Thebes, Pi-Ramesses

The Bible states that the Israelites toiled in slavery and built "for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Ra'amses" in the Egyptian Delta (Exodus 1:11). The latter is probably a reference to the city of Pi-Ramesse Aa-nakhtu or the "House of Ramesses, Great-of-Victories"--i.e. ancient Pi-Ramesses (modern day Qantir) --which had been Seti I's summer retreat.[4] Ramesses II greatly enlarged this city both as his principal northern capital and as an important forward base for his military campaigns into the Levant and his control over Canaan.

Remember also that of all the kings of Egypt, Khufu remains the biggest mystery because there ARE NO HIEROGLYPHIC INSCRIPTIONS about his reign or exploits AT ALL from his reign...Nor from the reigns of his sons Djedefra and Khafre. Nor through the ENTIRE Old Kingdom period.

What does that prove? That proves that he was a nobody, a peon. Ramses II however erected many monuments and rebelled against his own egyptian deities by proclaiming himself to be a God.

The earliest recorded biographical narrative about Khufu were from the Middle Kingdom period onward. This seems most odd that the king who ordered the building of what would be the worlds tallest structure for over 3800 years HAD NOTHING TO INSCRIBE ABOUT HIMSELF OR HIS EXPLOITS !

Maybe he didn't build them. There is only ONE graffiti in the inner chamber of one of the pyramid which says his name and nothing else. Talk about an evidence :wacko:

Nor did his succeeding SONS ! Very strange indeed. And only 3 or 4 statues of Khufu survive to this day; the one fully intact being a miniature one at that.

This doesn't prove anything. We all know about the story of Akhenaten.

What would Khufu or his sons inscribe about his reign ?? That he opposed his subjects, the Bani Israil, and his fosterson Musa defeated his magicians and asked his God to bring down the plagues upon Egypt...And that Khufu was vanquished in the end by Musa's God ???

:wacko: You really have a talent of making up things.

When Inshallah Khufu's corpse is rediscovered by the world, I believe it will prove that he was the Firawn mentioned in the Qur'an by Allah(swt).

Why are you making this a personal issue for your soul? Lol there are many candidates to choose from, one of the strongest one is Ramses II, and Khufu isn't even a strong candidate.

And if there was no need for miracles, why did Allah show pharaoh so many signs. Do you even believe in the miracles of Isa (as), Prophet (saw) and that of Mosa(as)

I am sure you will say that there was some form of sand, say, which made the river red like as in bloody. What about the incident with the magicians? Was that all an optical illusion as well? What about Mosa's asa. Doesn't Quran say that his asa parted the sea and it turned into a snake?

Al-Afza · April 22, 2008

Ramses II's mummy was taken back and buried in the Kings valley after being drowned, where it dried up and now shows no signs of drowning, that is IF it doesn't show any sign of drowning. I bet it does.
Salam...
The magicians of Firawn, according to the Qur'anic ayat performed an illusion not a reality, READ THE AYAT. It is Nabih Musa's staff which performed the REAL miracle and no illusion, that is why those magicians fell to their knees and proclaimed Musa's God to be the ONE TRUE GOD.
Again, scores of Egyptologists and forensic archaeologists HAVE ALREADY examined Ramses II's mummified corpse. They have already CONCLUDED HE DID NOT DROWN. What part of that did you NOT UNDERSTAND ?
Khufu (Cheops) is no PEON as you state. He has been written about by the likes of Herodotus ("The Father of History")...
The location of events was the Mediterranean Sea and not the Red Sea. The rafts built by the Bani Israil would have been a far more convenient, expeditious and less arduous way to travel through the sea, along the coastline than upon foot on the land. The Nile Delta has an abundance of bamboo chutes to construct those rafts.
There have been historians that have explored the theory that the Red Sea was NOT the location but the Mediterranean Sea...
And the account which I provided is based solely upon the Qur'anic texts and NOT the conventional Western Judeo-Christian traditions...
Remember that the Judeo-Christian accounts are a Westernized adaptation of Middle Eastern history. It is not the history of the Europeans.
The infantry that arrived at the scene where Khufu's drowned corpse and royal barge were retrieved fully intact, were probably led by his sons Djedefra and Khafre...
Wa Salam.

**Murteza** · April 22, 2008

The location of events was the Mediterranean Sea and not the Red Sea. The rafts built by the Bani Israil would have been a far more convenient, expeditious and less arduous way to travel through the sea, along the coastline than upon foot on the land. The Nile Delta has an abundance of bamboo chutes to construct those rafts.

wow...i can't believe it if this true. so where is mount of sinai brother? do you believe if sinai is some kind of place located in Greek or Sicily if you mean they are fled across Mediteranian Sea

Edited April 22, 2008 by Murteza

Malang Power · April 22, 2008

Salam...
The magicians of Firawn, according to the Qur'anic ayat performed an illusion not a reality, READ THE AYAT. It is Nabih Musa's staff which performed the REAL miracle and no illusion, that is why those magicians fell to their knees and proclaimed Musa's God to be the ONE TRUE GOD.

So there were need for real miracles to be performed, and the red sea or the pacific ocean getting split up is an example of such a miracle.

Again, scores of Egyptologists and forensic archaeologists HAVE ALREADY examined Ramses II's mummified corpse. They have already CONCLUDED HE DID NOT DROWN. What part of that did you NOT UNDERSTAND ?

Most of them are atheists, jews, christians OR some of them are muslims who have sold out to the west for their personal benefit.

Khufu (Cheops) is no PEON as you state. He has been written about by the likes of Herodotus ("The Father of History")...

I am sorry, never heard of herodoofus

The location of events was the Mediterranean Sea and not the Red Sea. The rafts built by the Bani Israil would have been a far more convenient, expeditious and less arduous way to travel through the sea, along the coastline than upon foot on the land. The Nile Delta has an abundance of bamboo chutes to construct those rafts.

I think it was the pacific ocean, maybe atlantic.

The infantry that arrived at the scene where Khufu's drowned corpse and royal barge were retrieved fully intact, were probably led by his sons Djedefra and Khafre...
Wa Salam.

Yet his body is not an example for the whole world to seek admonishment from, nor is he the architect of the pyramids. One graffiti doesn't prove anything.

wow...i can't believe it if this true. so where is mount of sinai brother? do you believe if sinai is some kind of place located in Greek or Sicily if you mean they are fled across Mediteranian Sea

I think i know the problem here. Some muslims get tired of the orthodox and well known documentations and interpretation fo events so they try to create their own sequence of historical events to make themselves feel more educated, informed, or cool . Its a great feeling, i must admit, but it makes you a conspiracy theorist, a lowest form of life EVER. Most of these people believe in UFOs, aliens living underground, blah blah blah, etc.

**.InshAllah.** · April 23, 2008

salam bro,

Im not saying it wasnt Khufu with 100% certainty, but I just dont think its very likely.

1) Its unlikely to be the great pyramid as its not from baked stone, but the Quran strongly implies that it is. Do you have any references of any rites that involved baking bricks? It sounds a bit strange that making mud bricks would be a form of rites done before carrying out a project.

2) Pharoah wasnt used during the old Kingdom, yet Allah quotes Musa [as] as saying ''O Pharoah'' in 7:104. With regards to what you said about Messiah not being recorded during Isas [as] lifetime, well we have next to nothing from Isas' [as] lifetime. If we know it was used in the 2nd century, then its not so hard to go back one and say it might have been used in the first. This is unless you have proof that this was invented in the second century. Also in the Quran Allah swt says that it was said to Mary [as] ''Allah gives you glad tidings of the Masih'', suggesting that it was used before 2nd century as it was said to Mary herself.

3) Its generally recognised that Musa was during the New Kingdom (although admittedly I dont know how strong the reasoning is)

4) It doesnt have to be Ramses, it could be someone else from that time.

Edited April 23, 2008 by .InshAllah.

Al-Afza · April 23, 2008

So there were need for real miracles to be performed, and the red sea or the pacific ocean getting split up is an example of such a miracle.
Most of them are atheists, jews, christians OR some of them are muslims who have sold out to the west for their personal benefit.
I am sorry, never heard of herodoofus
I think it was the pacific ocean, maybe atlantic.
Yet his body is not an example for the whole world to seek admonishment from, nor is he the architect of the pyramids. One graffiti doesn't prove anything.
I think i know the problem here. Some muslims get tired of the orthodox and well known documentations and interpretation fo events so they try to create their own sequence of historical events to make themselves feel more educated, informed, or cool . Its a great feeling, i must admit, but it makes you a conspiracy theorist, a lowest form of life EVER. Most of these people believe in UFOs, aliens living underground, blah blah blah, etc.

Salam...

Those Egyptologists and Forensic Archaeologists being atheists ?

What does that have to do with their education and work ? Now you are sounding like a little boy. Those forensic examinations which included CT scans examine the LUNGS. Thats where they find out whether a corpse had died from drowning or not.

Those Ancient Egyptians were great architects, physicians, mathematicians and YET they were Kafirun (Unbelievers)...

Just ponder over this :

You stated that the Bani Israil wore slippers so it would make it easy for them to cross the bottom of the Red Sea floor which comprised wet, rough, sharp corals...How well do you think those slippers would fare walking over those corals ?

Even better yet, how well do you think horse-drawn chariots would fare being ridden over such corals ?? They would topple over and then there would be no need for any of them to be drowned...

Also, the Egyptians were a highly superstitious people. If the Red Sea were parted into TWO by Nabih Musa's staff, such a sight would have turned to butter even the toughest of the Egyptian soldiers. They would NEVER have dared followed the Israelites across such a path when the sea was raised on both sides !

No matter WHAT order their Pharoah gave. Just look at the example of those magicians whom the Pharoah summoned to challenge Nabih Musa(as) !

How they fell to their knees when his staff turned into an actual serpent. What do you think these Ancient Egyptians' reaction would have been if they would have seen the sea raised up and separated in two.

The theory of the "solar barge" of Khufu is a unique one to Egyptology. There is no such mention of such a ritual at all in the Egyptian Book Of The Dead where the Sun-God Ra and the Pharoah "ride" on a ship through the heavens...Nor is there any inscription on ANY of the ancient reliefs depicting such a scene for any pharoah anywhere in Egypt. Egyptologists had to have some kind of explanation for a royal vessel being disassembled and buried in a funerary rite...It is UNIQUE in Ancient Egyptian history...

The very fact that you have never even heard of Herodotus clearly shows you to be of the grade school level. Don't ever say this to any college professor or even a high school history teacher...Or they will look at you like you came from the hills.

It is not so much a talent for making things up but a methodical RECONSTRUCTION of historical events with the support of established archaeological facts matched to the Qur'anic texts...That is the scholarly method.

Wa Salam.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Al-Afza

Al-Afza · April 23, 2008

salam bro,
Im not saying it wasnt Khufu with 100% certainty, but I just dont think its very likely.
1) Its unlikely to be the great pyramid as its not from baked stone, but the Quran strongly implies that it is. Do you have any references of any rites that involved baking bricks? It sounds a bit strange that making mud bricks would be a form of rites done before carrying out a project.
2) Pharoah wasnt used during the old Kingdom, yet Allah quotes Musa [as] as saying ''O Pharoah'' in 7:104. With regards to what you said about Messiah not being recorded during Isas [as] lifetime, well we have next to nothing from Isas' [as] lifetime. If we know it was used in the 2nd century, then its not so hard to go back one and say it might have been used in the first. This is unless you have proof that this was invented in the second century. Also in the Quran Allah swt says that it was said to Mary [as] ''Allah gives you glad tidings of the Masih'', suggesting that it was used before 2nd century as it was said to Mary herself.
3) Its generally recognised that Musa was during the New Kingdom (although admittedly I dont know how strong the reasoning is)
4) It doesnt have to be Ramses, it could be someone else from that time.

Salam akhi...

After all the plausibilities and facts presented, Khufu is the only logical Fir'awn of the Holy Qur'an...

10:92

But We will this day deliver you with your body that you may be a sign to those after you, AND MOST SURELY THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ARE HEEDLESS TO OUR COMMUNICATIONS.

The above emboldened verse is particularly applicable to Br. Malang Power.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Al-Afza

Malang Power · April 23, 2008

Salam...
Those Egyptologists and Forensic Archaeologists being atheists ?
What does that have to do with their education and work ? Now you are sounding like a little boy. Those forensic examinations which included CT scans examine the LUNGS. Thats where they find out whether a corpse had died from drowning or not.

They deny Allah, they deny prophets. They say that humans were apes. They try their utmost best to deny any signs and proofs of God and particularly from the Quran. Firaun is a manifest sign of Allah, and if these atheists, chiristans and jews admit that firaun was drowned and preserved, the Quran is proven a manifest sign of Allah.

So they change their own history and say things like pharoah wasn't drowned. At the time when Ten commandments was released, there wasn't much evidence of Ramses not being killed from drowning yet they portrayed him to be alive after the incident. They will keep on denying the truth.

Those Ancient Egyptians were great architects, physicians, mathematicians and YET they were Kafirun (Unbelievers)...

The relied on their buildings physics maths whereas they don't need this evidence of Ramses's body being drowned as a mean of their life support.

Just ponder over this :
You stated that the Bani Israil wore slippers so it would make it easy for them to cross the bottom of the Red Sea floor which comprised wet, rough, sharp corals...How well do you think those slippers would fare walking over those corals ?

You are denying a manifest miracle of Allah through a prophet well documented in Quran YET you will do a taqleed on these atheists? Have you taken them besides Allah as your gods?

How hard is it to walk on the surface of such a seabed? Negev desert was once a sea or an ocean and people nowadays can easily walk through it, and there are corals and other stuff there as well.

Even better yet, how well do you think horse-drawn chariots would fare being ridden over such corals ?? They would topple over and then there would be no need for any of them to be drowned...

Even better yet, how well do you think these non-existent ships of Khufu's army would fare on a piece of land devoid of water because Allah parted the sea or an ocean on that land?

Also, the Egyptians were a highly superstitious people. If the Red Sea were parted into TWO by Nabih Musa's staff, such a sight would have turned to butter even the toughest of the Egyptian soldiers. They would NEVER have dared followed the Israelites across such a path when the sea was raised on both sides !

Allah is just. He wanted them not to be punished but they did taqleed of Firaun and considered him to be a manifest god and followed him to his ruin. If Firaun hadn't gone in, they wouldn't have gone in themselves.

No matter WHAT order their Pharoah gave. Just look at the example of those magicians whom the Pharoah summoned to challenge Nabih Musa(as) !
How they fell to their knees when his staff turned into an actual serpent. What do you think these Ancient Egyptians' reaction would have been if they would have seen the sea raised up and separated in two.

There is a difference between magicians and army men. Not all people disobeyed Firaun in the court. You are denying a miracle of God. Furthermore, their whole nation was getting humiliated and Firaun was the first one to enter the sea so they had to follow their god.

The theory of the "solar barge" of Khufu is a unique one to Egyptology. There is no such mention of such a ritual at all in the Egyptian Book Of The Dead where the Sun-God Ra and the Pharoah "ride" on a ship through the heavens...Nor is there any inscription on ANY of the ancient reliefs depicting such a scene for any pharoah anywhere in Egypt. Egyptologists had to have some kind of explanation for a royal vessel being disassembled and buried in a funerary rite...It is UNIQUE in Ancient Egyptian history...

Looking at its design, it doesn't look like a ship which would survive in the mediterranean, let alone red sea. I think it would capsize even on the nile. It looks like a ship made for rituals only, not used. This is a remade one and is not original but you get the idea.

Ok did Allah instruct Hadhrat Musa and his people to construct a ship like Nuh as well? How did thousands if not millions of people cross an ocean ?

The very fact that you have never even heard of Herodotus clearly shows you to be of the grade school level. Don't ever say this to any college professor or even a high school history teacher...Or they will look at you like you came from the hills.

Herodotus is not my imam so i don't give a ... about him. You deny Quran and consider his words to be true whereas i rely on Quran the foremost.

It is not so much a talent for making things up but a methodical RECONSTRUCTION of historical events with the support of established archaeological facts matched to the Qur'anic texts...That is the scholarly method.
Wa Salam.

More like methodical bs. Much like scientologist Battlefield Earth :wacko:

Salam akhi...
After all the plausibilities and facts presented, Khufu is the only logical Fir'awn of the Holy Qur'an...

See, this guy has made this his personal matter. There are many candidates for the pharoah of the exodus, not just Khufu or Ramses II.

10:92
But We will this day deliver you with your body that you may be a sign to those after you, AND MOST SURELY THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ARE HEEDLESS TO OUR COMMUNICATIONS.

Exactly. Majority of people and scientists think that Ramses II's mummy isn't a sign proof or a communication of Allah.

The above emboldened verse is particularly applicable to Br. Malang Power.

:wacko:

Al-Afza · April 23, 2008

They deny Allah, they deny prophets. They say that humans were apes. They try their utmost best to deny any signs and proofs of God and particularly from the Quran. Firaun is a manifest sign of Allah, and if these atheists, chiristans and jews admit that firaun was drowned and preserved, the Quran is proven a manifest sign of Allah.
So they change their own history and say things like pharoah wasn't drowned. At the time when Ten commandments was released, there wasn't much evidence of Ramses not being killed from drowning yet they portrayed him to be alive after the incident. They will keep on denying the truth.
The relied on their buildings physics maths whereas they don't need this evidence of Ramses's body being drowned as a mean of their life support.
You are denying a manifest miracle of Allah through a prophet well documented in Quran YET you will do a taqleed on these atheists? Have you taken them besides Allah as your gods?
How hard is it to walk on the surface of such a seabed? Negev desert was once a sea or an ocean and people nowadays can easily walk through it, and there are corals and other stuff there as well.
Even better yet, how well do you think these non-existent ships of Khufu's army would fare on a piece of land devoid of water because Allah parted the sea or an ocean on that land?
Allah is just. He wanted them not to be punished but they did taqleed of Firaun and considered him to be a manifest god and followed him to his ruin. If Firaun hadn't gone in, they wouldn't have gone in themselves.
There is a difference between magicians and army men. Not all people disobeyed Firaun in the court. You are denying a miracle of God. Furthermore, their whole nation was getting humiliated and Firaun was the first one to enter the sea so they had to follow their god.
Looking at its design, it doesn't look like a ship which would survive in the mediterranean, let alone red sea. I think it would capsize even on the nile. It looks like a ship made for rituals only, not used. This is a remade one and is not original but you get the idea.
Ok did Allah instruct Hadhrat Musa and his people to construct a ship like Nuh as well? How did thousands if not millions of people cross an ocean ?
Herodotus is not my imam so i don't give a ... about him. You deny Quran and consider his words to be true whereas i rely on Quran the foremost.
More like methodical bs. Much like scientologist Battlefield Earth :wacko:
See, this guy has made this his personal matter. There are many candidates for the pharoah of the exodus, not just Khufu or Ramses II.
Exactly. Majority of people and scientists think that Ramses II's mummy isn't a sign proof or a communication of Allah.
:wacko:

Salam..

You really come across as an amateur...I'm sorry.

Again, these forensic archaeologists aren't denying anything regards to Ramses II...He could not possibly be Firaun because HE DIDN'T DROWN ! All those highly educated experts ARE WRONG and people like you who insist it is Ramses II are right ??

Don't you think that those forensic examiners would love to get their names on the history books and become world famous for probably discovering the PHAROAH of the Exodus ??

Those who are heedless of the communications of Allah(swt) are those who cannot link the Qur'anic ayats to living proofs of Firaun's existence on this earth...

-The Great Pyramid being the tower Firaun asked to be built;

-The originally designed pathway by Grand Vizier Hemiunu(i.e. Haman) to below the summit of the Great Pyramid to view Musa's God and the stars Kochab and Mizar;

-The very similarity between the names of the royal architects Haman and Hemon(Hemiunu);

-The discovery of Khufu's royal barge after 4500 years;

-The fact there are no inscriptions on Khufu anywhere in the Great Pyramid or elsewhere when there most certainly should be, during his own reign or even that of his succeeding sons Djedefra and Khafre;

Who is DENYING the miracle of 'parting' the sea mentioned in the Holy Qur'an ??

The very fact that the archaic terminology for an immense tidal wave is 'parting the sea' or 'the sea divided' takes NOTHING away from being ANY LESS A MIRACLE. A sudden tectonic movement is what causes tidal waves not the wind ! Is it not a miracle that such a movement occured precisely at the time when it was needed to save the Bani Israil ??

Where does it state in these Qur'anic Ayats that the sea separated into TWO ?? For your edification on the Qur'an, THREE of the most widely recognized translations are provided :

002.050

YUSUFALI: And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.

PICKTHAL: And when We brought you through the sea and rescued you, and drowned the folk of Pharaoh in your sight.

SHAKIR: And when We parted the sea for you, so We saved you and drowned the followers of Firon and you watched by.

010.090

YUSUFALI: We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."

PICKTHAL: And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).

SHAKIR: And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

Yusuf Ali's states that a FLOOD drowned them !

In the original Qur'anic Arabic it states [transliteration] : WA ITH FARAQNA BIKUMU AL BAHRA [Division or Separation of the Sea or River); Note that the word 'Bahri' is applied to rivers, lakes and seas...For instance BAHRAYN literally means TWO RIVERS or TWO SEAS.

My whole purpose of beginning this post was to add yet another undisputable PROOF that the Holy Qur'an IS THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY Allah(swt)...And you do not see that.

There was no SUEZ CANAL back in those days as it was manmade by French engineer Ferdinand de Lesseps during the 19th Century A.D.; The Suez Canal joins both the Mediterranean and Red Seas.

Since the River Nile flows UPWARD, Southern Egypt was regarded by the Ancient Egyptians as Upper Egypt and Northern Egypt was thought to be Lower Egypt.

The NILE DELTA is where the Nile FLOWS OUT TO THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA.

It is wholly logical that Khufu's naval fleet pursued the migrating Bani Israil up the Nile and out into the Mediterranean Sea.

Are you that foolish that you ACTUALLY think I meant that Khufu's vessel carried his naval fleet alone ? That there weren't other barges including his that pursued the Bani Israil ? Or that the Bani Israil built only a single raft to float along the Mediterranean Coastline ?? That there weren't dozens of rafts made for this purpose ?

Even today, in the Pacific Islands, there a native Islanders who simultaneously cross the open ocean on literally hundreds of canoes !

Observe these photopraphs of actual tidal waves...Do they not give the appearance of the sea PARTING or being DIVIDED ??

Edited April 23, 2008 by Al-Afza

Malang Power · April 23, 2008

Salam..
Who is DENYING the miracle of 'parting' the sea mentioned in the Holy Qur'an ??
The very fact that the archaic terminology for an immense tidal wave is 'parting the sea' or 'the sea divided' takes NOTHING away from being ANY LESS A MIRACLE. A sudden tectonic movement is what causes tidal waves not the wind ! Is it not a miracle that such a movement occured precisely at the time when it was needed to save the Bani Israil ??

Tidal waves are normal occurences not a miracle. Quran describes it as a special favor from God so it is clearly a miracle of actual parting of the sea. You are downplaying the significance of this event by calling it a tidal wave.

Where does it state in this Qur'anic Ayat that the sea separated into TWO ?? For your edification on the Qur'an, THREE of the most widely recognized translations are provided :
010.090
YUSUFALI: We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
SHAKIR: And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

Quran also tells us to read previous scriptures to get the full picture of what happened, and all of them are in unison that the ACTUAL parting occured.

Yusuf Ali's states that a FLOOD drowned them !
My whole purpose of beginning this post was to add yet another undisputable PROOF that the Holy Qur'an IS THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY Allah(swt)...And you do not see that.

You are saying that the sea wasn't split up. You say that bani israelis didn't cross the sea. You should be calling your posts the refutation of quran in your opinion.

There was no SUEZ CANAL back in those days as it was manmade by French engineer Ferdinand de Lesseps during the 19th Century A.D.; The Suez Canal joins both the Mediterranean and Red Seas.
Since the River Nile flows UPWARD, Southern Egypt was regarded by the Ancient Egyptians as Upper Egypt and Northern Egypt was thought to be Lower Egypt.
The NILE DELTA is where the Nile FLOWS OUT TO THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA.
It is wholly logical that Khufu's naval fleet pursued the migrating Bani Israil up the Nile and out into the Mediterranean Sea.

Ok where is Mt. Sinai? I bet you think that Mt. Sinai is actually Mt. Olympus or something, don'tcha?

Are you that foolish that you ACTUALLY think I meant that Khufu's vessel carried his naval fleet alone ? That there weren't other barges including his that pursued the Bani Israil ? Or that the Bani Israil built only a single raft to float along the Mediterranean Coastline ?? That there weren't dozens of rafts made for this purpose ?

Where are the other ships right now? Oh right they must have dsintegrated in the ocean by now :lol:

Even today, in the Pacific Islands, there a native Islanders who simultaneously cross the open ocean on literally hundreds of canoes !

And what ships did Musa and his people use??

Observe these photopraphs of actual tidal waves...Do they not give the appearance of the sea PARTING or being DIVIDED ??

No it wasn't a visual experience this parting of seas. It was a literal parting of the sea.

Al-Afza · April 24, 2008

Tidal waves are normal occurences not a miracle. Quran describes it as a special favor from God so it is clearly a miracle of actual parting of the sea. You are downplaying the significance of this event by calling it a tidal wave.
Quran also tells us to read previous scriptures to get the full picture of what happened, and all of them are in unison that the ACTUAL parting occured.
You are saying that the sea wasn't split up. You say that bani israelis didn't cross the sea. You should be calling your posts the refutation of quran in your opinion.
Ok where is Mt. Sinai? I bet you think that Mt. Sinai is actually Mt. Olympus or something, don'tcha?
Where are the other ships right now? Oh right they must have dsintegrated in the ocean by now :lol:
And what ships did Musa and his people use??
No it wasn't a visual experience this parting of seas. It was a literal parting of the sea.

Salam...

You know you are really not applying your brains...And here are some reasons why :

The verse WA'ITH FARAQNA BIKUMU AL BAHRA says volumes....'Faraqna' means "parted" or "separated". It is a transitive verb; 'Bikumu' means "for you";

"al bahra" means 'the sea' and is a noun.

You see if Allah(swt) would have stated WA'ITH FARAQNA BIKUMU AL BAHR-AYN...Which He didn't, then it would literally mean "parted the sea for you in TWO"...

My posts are clearly an understanding of the Holy Qur'an NOT their refutation. Your objections are not for the Qur'an as much as they are for the Western Judeo-Christian version of Ancient Mid-Eastern monotheist traditions...

You asked among other things, where are the barges of Khufu's naval fleet now ?? That they disintegrated ??

Where are those CHARIOTS of Pharoah which were "drowned" in the Red Sea ?? They must have disintegrated as well...

The Mediterranean Sea has so many vessels from ancient times at its bottom that are countless...What with all the great sea battles throughout the ages that were waged in it :

The Egyptians vs. The Phoenicians [The People of the Sea]; The Greeks vs. The Persians; The Romans vs. The Iberians, etc...

What historical sea battles took place in ANCIENT TIMES in the Red Sea ??

Traces of those "chariots" of Pharoah should have been found by now or did they DISINTEGRATE ??

Edited April 24, 2008 by Al-Afza

Malang Power · April 24, 2008

Salam...
The verse WA'ITH FARAQNA BIKUMU AL BAHRA says volumes....'Faraqna' means "parted" or "separated". It is a transitive verb; 'Bikumu' means "for you";
"al bahra" means 'the sea' and is a noun.

I think all "respectable" scholars agree that the sea was indeed parted in a miraculous way not as an illusion of being parted like you are claiming. You are saying that Allah's miracle is just like that of the magicians, an illusion.

You see if Allah(swt) would have stated WA'ITH FARAQNA BIKUMU AL BAHR-AYN...Which He didn't, then it would literally mean "parted the sea for you in TWO"...

I am sure you deny the miracle of moon being split into two as well. Quran says :

[54:1]: “The moon has split and the hour has drawn closer”

Does it say, the moon has been split into two?

[54:2] “Then they saw a great miracle; but they turned away and said, “Old magic.”

You are claiming the splitting up of the sea into two was just like the trick/magic of illusion like that of the old magicians of Musa (as)

[54:3] They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions

Where are those CHARIOTS of Pharoah which were "drowned" in the Red Sea ?? They must have disintegrated as well...

Chariots are smaller in size, like 1000 chariots atleast can fit into one ship. Are you seriously comparing the disintegration time taken for chariots compared to disintegration of a whole fleet of ships each being atleast 40 metres in length?

The Mediterranean Sea has so many vessels from ancient times at its bottom that are countless...What with all the great sea battles throughout the ages that were waged in it :
The Egyptians vs. The Phoenicians [The People of the Sea]; The Greeks vs. The Persians; The Romans vs. The Iberians, etc...
What historical sea battles took place in ANCIENT TIMES in the Red Sea ??
Traces of those "chariots" of Pharoah should have been found by now or did they DISINTEGRATE ??

Show me one example of a ship like that of khufu's ship of egyptians present in the medi..

Al-Afza · April 24, 2008

I think all "respectable" scholars agree that the sea was indeed parted in a miraculous way not as an illusion of being parted like you are claiming. You are saying that Allah's miracle is just like that of the magicians, an illusion.
I am sure you deny the miracle of moon being split into two as well. Quran says :
[54:1]: ï¿½The moon has split and the hour has drawn closerï¿½
Does it say, the moon has been split into two?
[54:2] ï¿½Then they saw a great miracle; but they turned away and said, ï¿½Old magic.ï¿½
You are claiming the splitting up of the sea into two was just like the trick/magic of illusion like that of the old magicians of Musa (as)
[54:3] They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions
Chariots are smaller in size, like 1000 chariots atleast can fit into one ship. Are you seriously comparing the disintegration time taken for chariots compared to disintegration of a whole fleet of ships each being atleast 40 metres in length?
Show me one example of a ship like that of khufu's ship of egyptians present in the medi..

Salam...

I have never upheld that the miracles of Allah(swt) are illusions...Don't try changing what I am trying to convey...Or attribute words to me which I have never advocated. I see what you are trying to pull...It is stupid and ignorant. And shows that you are a little boy.

You provided the photo of Khufu's ship...Did you not take a close look at it ?? The other ships at that time were either of the same size or even a little smaller...

A THOUSAND CHARIOTS FITTING INTO ONE SHIP !!???

You must be on hallucinogens...

There has NEVER been any ship constructed during ANCIENT TIMES that could even hold FIFTY chariots (horses included)...Even the size of the chariots that existed during the New Kingdom !

Not by the Phoenicians(Lebanese), nor the Persians, Greeks, Romans, etc..

I was expecting responses from our Christian and Jewish brothers on my post but instead I get one from a fellow Muslim, who sounds dumber with each reply.

After that statement, it is apparent that you are in no way deserving of any more responses whatsoever...

Wa Salam..

P.S. : Keep away from those hallucinogens !

Edited April 24, 2008 by Al-Afza

Al-Afza · April 25, 2008

salam bro,
Im not saying it wasnt Khufu with 100% certainty, but I just dont think its very likely.
1) Its unlikely to be the great pyramid as its not from baked stone, but the Quran strongly implies that it is. Do you have any references of any rites that involved baking bricks? It sounds a bit strange that making mud bricks would be a form of rites done before carrying out a project.
2) Pharoah wasnt used during the old Kingdom, yet Allah quotes Musa [as] as saying ''O Pharoah'' in 7:104. With regards to what you said about Messiah not being recorded during Isas [as] lifetime, well we have next to nothing from Isas' [as] lifetime. If we know it was used in the 2nd century, then its not so hard to go back one and say it might have been used in the first. This is unless you have proof that this was invented in the second century. Also in the Quran Allah swt says that it was said to Mary [as] ''Allah gives you glad tidings of the Masih'', suggesting that it was used before 2nd century as it was said to Mary herself.
3) Its generally recognised that Musa was during the New Kingdom (although admittedly I dont know how strong the reasoning is)
4) It doesnt have to be Ramses, it could be someone else from that time.

Salam...

An excerpt from a Wikipedia article on Ramses II :

Ramesses II was buried in the tomb KV7 in the Valley of the Kings. In 1885, his mummy was placed in Cairo's Egyptian Museum, but it was later moved back to his tomb.

The pharaoh's mummy features a hooked nose and strong jaw, and is below average height for an ancient Egyptian, standing some five feet, seven inches. His successor was ultimately to be his thirteenth son: Merneptah.

Mummy of Ramesses II. In 1974, Egyptologists visiting his tomb noticed that the mummy's condition was rapidly deteriorating. They decided to fly Ramesses II's mummy to Paris for examination. Ramesses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased)." According to a Discovery Channel documentary, the mummy was received at a Paris airport with the full military honours befitting a king.

In Paris, Ramesses' mummy was diagnosed and treated for a fungal infection. During the examination, scientific analysis revealed battle wounds and old fractures, as well as the pharaoh's arthritis and poor circulation.

President Sadat visiting Ramesses II's mummy.For the last decades of his life, Ramesses II was essentially crippled with arthritis and walked with a hunched back, and a recent study excluded ankylosing spondylitis as a possible cause of the pharaoh's arthritis. A significant hole in the pharaoh's mandible was detected while "an abscess by his teeth was serious enough to have caused death by infection, although this cannot be determined with certainty." Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair revealed that the king may have been a redhead

At least as early as Eusebius of Caesarea,[citation needed] Ramesses II was identified with the pharaoh of whom the Biblical figure Moses demanded his people be released from slavery.

This identification has often been disputed, though the evidence for another solution is likewise inconclusive as critics point out that Ramesses II was not drowned in the Sea. The primary Exodus account itself makes no specific claim that the pharaoh was with his army when they were "swept ... into the sea,"; only Psalm 136 makes this claim.. Critics point out that Ramesses II was not drowned in the Sea. Although the Exodus account makes no specific claim that the pharaoh was with his army when they were "swept ... into the sea," the account in Psalm 136 does claim both Pharaoh and his army were destroyed at the sea.

--------------------------

Our Qur'anic account CLEARLY states that Fir'awn DROWNED but his body was delivered. Psalm 136 CONCURS with the Qur'anic account.

---------------------------

Also...From a Wikipedia article excerpt :

The many early Egyptian goddesses who are related as sun deities and the later gods Ra and Horus depicted as riding in a solar barge. In Egyptian myths of the afterlife, Ra rides in an underground channel from west to east every night so that he can rise in the east the next morning.

---------------------------

There has NEVER been ANY depiction or inscription that showed A PHAROAH partaking in the ritual of Ra upon the "solar barge"...It has always been depicted with Ra ALONE and NEVER accompanied by any PHAROAH. The Khufu "solar barge" concept is UNIQUE to Egyptology.

There is a picture of such a rite with Ra ALONE provided below...Also, one of Ramses II's Mummy...

Edited April 25, 2008 by Al-Afza

Al-Afza · April 26, 2008

salam bro,
Im not saying it wasnt Khufu with 100% certainty, but I just dont think its very likely.
1) Its unlikely to be the great pyramid as its not from baked stone, but the Quran strongly implies that it is. Do you have any references of any rites that involved baking bricks? It sounds a bit strange that making mud bricks would be a form of rites done before carrying out a project.
2) Pharoah wasnt used during the old Kingdom, yet Allah quotes Musa [as] as saying ''O Pharoah'' in 7:104. With regards to what you said about Messiah not being recorded during Isas [as] lifetime, well we have next to nothing from Isas' [as] lifetime. If we know it was used in the 2nd century, then its not so hard to go back one and say it might have been used in the first. This is unless you have proof that this was invented in the second century. Also in the Quran Allah swt says that it was said to Mary [as] ''Allah gives you glad tidings of the Masih'', suggesting that it was used before 2nd century as it was said to Mary herself.
3) Its generally recognised that Musa was during the New Kingdom (although admittedly I dont know how strong the reasoning is)
4) It doesnt have to be Ramses, it could be someone else from that time.

Salam akhi...

The Bible was compiled by the Council of Nicaea during the reign of the pagan-turned-Christian Emperor Constantine I[b. 27 Feb 272 ï¿½ d. 22 May 337]--at his decree. This occured in 325 A.D. at Bithynia[iznik, Turkey]. Constantine had invited all 1800 bishops of the Christian church (about 1000 in the east and 800 in the west). The Bible was originally identified by the name of The Nicene Creed. It rejected most or all of the Gospels of The Gnostics. Its roots was the Greek Septuagint; The very first doctrines of Middle Eastern Monotheism translated into Hellenic by the 70 Greek scholars. After the Nicene Creed (in Greek), the very first LATIN translation of the Nicene Creed [i.e. The Bible] was compiled called the Latin Vulgate.

Down the centuries, more European versions of the Bible came about like the King James Version (James I of Englan) overseen by his Lord Chancellor Francis Bacon...So you see there have been at least THREE major translations of the Ancient Aramaic [NOT Hebrew] monotheist scriptures from Greek to Latin to Roman English, etc...

The word 'Bible' as explained from the Wikipedia source from Encyclopedia Britannica :

--is derived from biblion ("paper" or "scroll," the ordinary word for "book"), which was originally a diminutive of byblos ("Egyptian papyrus"), possibly so called from the name of the Phoenician port Byblos from which Egyptian papyrus was exported to Greece.

Conclusion : The Judeo-Christian Bible IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT THE UNDISPUTABLE WORD OF Allah(swt)--i.e. ALMIGHTY GOD.

Here is an article I have copy-pasted from a Born Again Christian website regarding some of their candidates of who they think might by the Pharoah of The Judeo-Christian scriptures...

Note in the emboldened sentence which I modified, the Judeo-Christians actually believe that the Bible is the unerring word of Almighty God...Ignoring the fact that the Bible has gone through so many adaptations and versions from the Greek blueprint of the Septuagint....

Who Was The Pharaoh Of The Exodus?

by Allan Turner

The Bible nowhere mentions the name of the pharaoh of the Exodus, but Bible students have always been curious as to who he was. No doubt, some Christians will be wary of trying to discover something the Bible has not clearly revealed; but in studying this question one can come away with his faith increased in THE BIBLE AS THE UNERRING WORD OF GOD. Although the Bible does not specifically name the pharaoh of the Exodus, enough data is supplied for us to be relatively sure who he was.

Admittedly, there are two schools of thought concerning the date of the Exodus (i.e., the early date and late date theories). Proponents of the late date theory (1290 B.C.) are clearly in the majority, but they reject clear Biblical statements with reference to the date of the Exodus. Therefore their arguments in favor of a particular pharaoh will not be considered in this article.

In I Kings 6:1 the Scriptures say: "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month that he began to build the house of the Lord." One can readily see that the times for both the Exodus and the beginning of the Temple have been specifically stated in God's Word. Scholars have identified the fourth year of Solomon's reign as 966 B.C. (Gleason, A Survey of Old Testamsnt Introduction, 1974, p. 223). Using this 966 B.C. date, we find that the Exodus took place in 1445 B.C. Now, if this information is correct, the Exodus occurred in the third year of the reign of the pharaoh Amenhotep II.

Before concluding that Amenhotep II was, indeed, the pharaoh of the Exodus, we will need to study further other evidence that can be presented. For instance, when comparing Exodus 7:7 with Acts 7:23, we learn that Moses was in Midian approximately forty years. Assuming the pharaohs mentioned in Exodus 1:8, 22 and 2:23 are all the same person, he would have had to reign for over forty years. Amenhotep's predecessor, Thutmose III, is the only pharaoh within the time specified in I Kings 6:1 who reigned long enough (54 years) to have been on the throne at the time of Moses' flight and to die shortly before his return to Egypt. This would make Thutmose III the pharaoh of the Oppression and Amenhotep II the pharaoh of the Exodus.

History tells us that for several years after 1445 B.C. Amenhotep II was unable to carry out any invasions or extensive military operations. This would seem like very strange behavior for a pharaoh who hoped to equal his father's record of no less than seventeen military campaigns in nineteen years. But this is exactly what one would expect from a pharaoh who had lost almost all his cavalry, chariotry, and army at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:23, 27-30).

Furthermore, we learn from the Dream Stela of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, that he was not the legitimate successor to the throne (J.B. Pritchard (ed.), Ancient Near-Eastern Texts, p. 449). This means that Thutmose IV was not the firstborn son, who would have been the legitimate heir. The firstborn son of Amenhotep II had evidently died prior to taking the throne of Egypt. This would agree with Exodus 12:29 which says the pharaoh's first-born son was killed during the Passover.

If the Exodus did take place in 1445 B.C., forty years of wilderness wandering would bring us to 1405 B.C. for the destruction of Jericho. Interestingly enough, John Garstang, who excavated the site of ancient Jericho (city "D" in his survey), came to the conclusion that the destruction of the city took place around 1400 B.C. (Garstang, The Story of Jericho, 1948, p. 122). He also concluded that the walls of the city toppled outward, which would compare favorably with Joshua 6:20.

Scholars have been fascinated by a revolutionary religious doctrine which developed shortly after 1445 B.C. that threatened to sweep away the theological dogmas of centuries. These scholars have credited Amenhotep IV, great grandson of Amenhotep II, with founding the religious concept of Monotheism (the idea that there is only one God). The cult of Aton set forth this idea to the Egyptian people and scholars have mistakenly credited this idea to the Egyptians. But it does not seem unusual to me that a people who had been so influenced by the one God of Moses would try to worship the God that had so convincingly defeated their gods. A continually increasing body of evidence indicates that this cult of Aton had its beginning in the reign of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, pharaoh of the Exodus.

Although the final verdict is not yet in, we can be reasonably sure that Amenhotep II was the pharaoh of the Exodus.

Note that NO Judeo-Christian alternate theories mention the name of Pharoah's royal architect Hemon(Hemiunu) or the construction of a TOWER to view the God of Moses(pbuh)...

Wa Salam.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Al-Afza

Al-Afza · April 27, 2008

salam
Khufus pyramid is quite interesting. You said that they dont regard its as a funerary monument anymore - do you know what they do regard it as?
The only issue I have with this is that the Quran says 'so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud' but the pyramid is not from baked mud but limestone.

Salam...

Here are surviving images of Fir'awn Khufu and Haman(Hemiunu)...

Al-Afza · May 8, 2008

salam
Khufus pyramid is quite interesting. You said that they dont regard its as a funerary monument anymore - do you know what they do regard it as?
The only issue I have with this is that the Quran says 'so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud' but the pyramid is not from baked mud but limestone.

Salam...

Some more info on the subject...Khufu's Great Pyramid was designed to be his ROYAL PALACE or PER-AAH [GREAT HOUSE]...Haman's original design was in fact completed but SEALED off later by Djedefra when he ascended to the throne of Egypt.

There were TWO pathways in the Great Pyriamid at Giza at the highest point logistically possible below the summit to view Musa's God. They were aligned to view the stars Kochab on one of its three sides, and Mizar on the other. The alignment to these two stars were done for accuracy of construction, used as compass points in the design...Not to actually view these two stars which could also be viewed at ground level by Egyptian mathematicians and astronomers...

In the first recorded historical writings about Khufu [Cheops], Ancient Egyptian scribes referred to him on one such document as Khnum-Khufu Per-Aah or Khufu of The Great House...Since Khufu's Royal Palace or Great House was THE GREATEST OF THEM ALL.

This was done during the Middle Kingdom period by those royal scribes...And from then onward, all the Egyptian kings were TITLED with Per-Aah or Pharoah which was included in their PRENOMEN.

It is a fact that the Royal Palace of the Egyptian kings (called Per-Aah or Great House) were NOT used to hold court or handle state of affairs but ONLY ceremonial rites and religious purposes...This dated from PRE-DYNASTIC times when Ancient Egypt was THREE kingdoms and then TWO kingdoms...All the way through the Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, etc.

It was not until the true royal bloodline ended with the premature death of Tutankhamun and the commoners became Pharoahs of Egypt starting with Tut's Grand Vizier-High Priest Ay and Supreme Military Commander Horemheb. It was Horemheb who started to hold his royal court and handle affairs of state at the Royal Palace or Great House [i.e. Per-Aah].

Conclusion : It was Khufu [Cheops] who was IN FACT the very first Egyptian ruler to be entitled PHAROAH even though it was RETROACTIVELY by the Ancient Egyptian scribes !

Yiligiz · May 11, 2008

salalma alaiuk,

this is ridiculous. Ramses 11 is the firaun of the quran.

Fiasco · May 11, 2008

salalma alaiuk,
this is ridiculous. Ramses 11 is the firaun of the quran.

You ignored all the arguments Al-Afza provided in this thread.

Yiligiz · May 11, 2008

You ignored all the arguments Al-Afza provided in this thread.

none of which are relevant or even related .

Al-Afza · May 11, 2008

none of which are relevant or even related .

Salam...

None of which are relevant ??? You must have been reading another thread.... Not this one.

There was a documentary program aired on the History Channel not too long ago entitled EGYPT DECODED...

In it, some very pertinent info was analyzed regarding the Great Pyramid at Giza...among other Ancient Egyptian monuments...

It explained that the Ancient Egyptians were far more advanced astronomers than previously thought by Egyptologists.

As with the Akkadians and Babylonians, the Egyptians also believed that their deities ended up in the heavens as STARS or CONSTELLATIONS...

As also did the 'living gods' or Pharoahs after their terrestrial death. Their "Ka" or spirit resided in the heavens as STARS...

This program, through CGI (computer generated imagery), outlined the various STARS and CONSTELLATIONS of Ancient Egyptian astronomy.

Constellations that represented their deities Aser [Osiris] and Aset [isis], Horus, Ptah, Thoth, etc..

That clearly explains the verse of Allah (swt) when he related in His Qur'an that Firaun [Khufu] asked Haman [Hemiunu] to build a Per-Aah(Great House) or Royal Palace in which he could VIEW MUSA'S GOD, SO HE COULD DEEM MUSA A LIAR...

What Firaun would be viewing were already established STARS or CONSTELLATIONS of Egyptian astrology/astronomy which proved that Musa's God is NOT UP THERE IN THE HEAVENS next to Ptah, Ra, Thoth, etc...

And to PROVE that NO possibly new,

undiscovered constellation exists which would be better viewed from a very high, elevated platform especially designed to observe the constellations in the heavens...

By the way, he is not Ramses 11 [eleven] but Ramesses II [second]...

Edited May 11, 2008 by Al-Afza

Yiligiz · May 11, 2008

As with the Akkadians and Babylonians, the Egyptians also believed that their deities ended up in the heavens as STARS or CONSTELLATIONS...
As also did the 'living gods' or Pharoahs after their terrestrial death. Their "Ka" or spirit resided in the heavens as STARS...

Ramses II wanted to view Musa's god when he was alive.

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