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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Ammar Nashkwani is a highly qualified person as far I have heard it offline * , and he is very expensive person to get hold off , if one wants to invite.

Since I don't know why hes really charging alot

Lets think in a positive way.....

1))If hes or lets say any scholar or speaker charging an heavy amount, could be possible for they might be doing some project for the community .

2)Could be hes doing some project that could bring our community in a positive way.

3) If hes Highly qualified ,it would be really silly to know such a educated person is charging for his personal live ?

At the end of day , come on tell me ,an open challenge This year moharram which has just pass by , u know Dr.Zakir naik an well spoken Indian sunni alim, who said Yazeed(la) , God forbid with the term of karamullah wajjahu and the ashoora some kind of personal matter between yazeed(la)and Imam Hussain(AS).

Br.Ammar Nashkwani, refuted this claim. and he pointed the weakness of we shias ...in lack of propagating faith through various means.

Tell how many alims who didn't charge much , refuted such claims?

Edited by Lion of Karbala
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Fisabillilah is when you don't have to invest all your time and leave you family in order to disseminate the knowledge and material. However when it becomes a way of life and you're having to give up

May I request the East African Khoja Community to stop paying orators so much money? Lot's of us little guys can't match what you guys offer. And once an orator gets $1000/majlis why would he come to

I'm still torn here. I understand knowledge and material should be distributed fisabilillah, and it seems in bad taste to put a price on it, but if such things were of monetary value, more people coul

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May I request the East African Khoja Community to stop paying orators so much money? Lot's of us little guys can't match what you guys offer. And once an orator gets $1000/majlis why would he come to a community that can barely offer him $1000 for the whole 10 days?

Lets establish an international standard of how much to offer (maximum/minimum) as an honorarium to orator and lets all stick to it. This will allow less wealthy communities the chance to invite and listen to orators. In all likelihood, its the poor communities that will benefit most from the lectures.

Personally, I think it's the orator responsibility to levitate towards different communities. What's the deal with one orator having a multi-year contract with the same community? Rotate!

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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(salam)

Stop complaining about East African Jamat. ^_^ :mad: Next time just make an offer that Sayyed X cannot refuse. And pls make it before the East African khoja gets a chance.

But if Sayyed X prefers place A to place B, then you are out of luck. Sometimes a speaker prefers to get his/her message across to 1000s people and not 100s in certain small place. Do you think we should regulate the number of audience too?

I also don't think it's fair that most of our scholars are in Najaf and Qum when we in the western countries need them the most, desperately. Some things are just out of our control and cannot be regulated.

As for fixing the price rate for the speaker. That will never happen as long as the demand far out-stripped the supply. What message are we really sending when we start doing that. Do we want to send a message to young people that "Stop dreaming about becoming a world renowned Islamic speaker. Our wallets are not ready for you. "

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In His Name, the Most High

Salam

Imam Khomeini(RA) said: "I do not need any financial support, I fight the Shah with pen and paper!"

Why can't we learn from such a great personality? I mean wouldn't it be a bit akwad of Imam Khomeini(RA) came and said, "Hear O people, I will make a revolution and overthrow the Shah who has violated your rights for a small fee..."?

Since no one has brought forth solid authentic proof from Islamic sources which encourages or at least legitimates charging for delivering Islamic lectures let us go on and address a follow up question which I've seen a lot of people having in their minds: If a speaker doesn't charge for his lectures, how will he make a living?

Well Shaykh Shabbir answered this very good. Let me add to his answer a working examples in the real life: The Open Source movement. Open source is a set of principles and practices on how to write software, the most important of which is that the source code is openly available. One of the important factors of open source is free distribution of the software meaning it should be availible for free for the public.

Good working open source programs are for example the browser Firefox of the OS Linux. The brains behind are dedicated engineers who have put time and effort to produce such good software. How do you think they make a living?

Keyword: Donations, but also sponsors. The whole pilosophy which makes the Open Source movement running is: if I download and use a software and I like it then, IF I WANT, I'll donate a sum of money out of good will. If the software is bad or I simply don't want to donate that's fine as well. The developers don't expect a thing.

Look at the ShiaChat Team. How would you people think or react if they started charging for your memberships? Instead they have sponsors, donations and most important self-sacrifice which makes the site running.

On the opposite we have stricly commercial companies like Microsoft who has been condemned by the EU for their monopoly on the IT-market.

How beautiful it is that you do something out of love rather then making money out of it!

Which brings me to the conclusion: if I like a speaker, whom I see is a righteous striving servant of God, I will delightely give him money or gift. But a speaker who sits on the pulpit, talks about the sacrifice and simple living Imam Ali(A) and then wants or expects money for doing this will have no respect in my eyes. I'd rather go and hom and read a book then sit under the pulpit of such a person.

Let me ask another thing. In the clip by Nakshawani which I refered to in my first post, which Shaykh Shabbir very eloquently and locially refuted, Nakshawani says:

Meaning there are some speakers who will come forward and say I'm not going to charge, you give me whatever you can give me. These speakers are the disease!! Why? Agree a contract beforehand, because if you don't agree a contract beforehand, you will end-up leaving a community disappointed.

Some people today attack speakers because they say speakers charge before they recite, course you have to charge. Islam says do not rely on verbal agreements, write things on paper and then you will be given.

Nakshawani >> Muharram 2008 >> Night of Ashura >> Generosity >> Charging for Islam

According to him if you don't charge that will end up leaving the community disappointed. Now I wonder, why doesn't the speaker who charges and the community who gives the money openly show the written contract to the public? Wouldn't it end up leaving the community disappointed if they knew that their local mosque has payed, let's say 1'000USD, for a weekend with their money and donations?!

They have the right to know what has been done with their money. Why the secrecy? What is there to hide?

Well if Mr. Nakshawani or others, who are in support of charging high rates for lectures, why don't they likewise openly present their rates and contracts to the people and motivate why they charge so high?

If we ask this legitimate questions then we are automatically jelaous of have a personal vendetta with these people. Why?

When I pay taxes I have the right to know what the government does with my tax money. What is there hiding if its so right according to these speakers?!

I don't see the need for all this hype talk...I mean how many of you so called speakers have been outside nightclubs at 2am in the dirtiest ghetto parts of your area and set up a table to give DAWAH!!!!!!!!!! AND AT THAT WITH PEOPLE COMING OUT OF CLUBS....FROM CRACKHEADS TO GANGSTAS TO PEOPLE LOOKIN FOR FIGHTS ALL STANDIN THERE LISTENIN to one guy talk about WHY WE'RE HERE..............I mean how many of you would have the rahssclaart to do that???

Dear brother, nobody has said that Nakshawani is the "embodiment of evil", the devil himself or that he doesn't do any good deeds. Just because we critisize him for charging for his lectures it doesn't mean he is evil in every point of his existance. Please try to understand this.

Some say that the second caliph was just and did good deeds to promote Islam when he was a caliph. Sure, no one said that everything he did was bad, but the chair which he has upon wasn't meant for him in the first place. It's like you steal from the rich and give to the poor. Giving to the poor is good but the root, the stealing, is wrong and hence the chairity is also wrong!

When people make Islam a commercial trade, buying and selling God, and slanders on the pulpit infront of thousands, they are sitting on a chair which is not fit for them. No matter what good they do beside that and how many people they lead to Islam it doesn't matter, they are not fit to sit there in the first place.

I don't mean that such people should be banned for life from lecturing. I'm saying they should perform a spiritual retreat, purify themeselves, acquire some proper indepth knowledge and wisdom and then make a come back when they are mature for it.

Simply being a good orator isn't a valid argument. One of the best orators of our time was Hitler, look what happened when he sat on the pulpit and how he mislead the masses which is oral powers!!

For all those people who think I'm jelaous for raising this important issues, fine, let me be jelaous (by the end of the day it's God who will judge me, who knows what is in my heart) but this doesn't make any difference - you are not answering my legitimate inquiries! Either refute my statements with valid Islamic sources and let me be left as a jelaous idiot or consider that there might be some truth in the critisicm which I and other brothers and sisters have raised in this discussion.

Let me finnish once again with a egobreaking verse from the Holy Quran:

O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not do?

It is most hateful to Allah that you should say that which you do not do.

(The Holy Quran 61:2-3)

Salam

Ehsan

(Ps. For those who have asked for my lectures, they are in Swedish, so I don't see much point in linking to them unless there is someone who understand Swedish.)

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Great points Br. Shabbir.HasanAlly! Jazakallah!

Our society has this problem of worshipping just any person who comes in front of the people, utters some hadith, and verses from the Quran. If people get the kind of majlis/lecture that they want/like or "woo to" ,that's it, they're happy... they don't care whether that particular person deserved to sit on the mimbar of the Prophet or not. So pathetic!

In actuality Islam just isn't as important to many as other worldy affairs, as you mentioned.... people would make sure they're going to the right doctor, but it does'nt matter to them if a speaker of their community is saying [Edited Out] or behaving [Edited Out].

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(salam)

Thanks for that post Shaykh Shabbir.

It seems a lot of people's criteria for knowledge is the charisma of the lecturer. Minbaris like Sayyid Modaressi and Sayyid Nakhshwani need to be more mindful of the subjects they speak on from the pulpit. While both of them deliver a beautiful Masaib I dont think either of them should be delivering lectures from the minbar given false information they continually repeat from there. Perhaps a mic and podium would be a better forum for them....

ws

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(salam)

1)I see no problem in SAYEDS words.Mawlana came to our majalis for ashre-muharam, we said to him mawlana directly please tell us how much shall we pay you, he said whatever you can , i serve imam, when he finished we gave him 5,000, he said please take it back,are you serious , do you know how much my home country would give me, he was very disappointed.

SULAYMAN BIN JAFAR AL JAFARI SAYS THAT ONE DAY HE WENT WITH IMAM REDHA TO THE LATTERS HOME. WHEN THEY REACHED THE HOUSE ASND ENTERED THE COURTYARD, THEY SAW THE SERVANTS OF THE IMAM BUSY DOING THEIR WORK. THE IMAM NOTICED A STRANGER AMONGST HIS WORKERS. IMAM SAID `WHO IS THE MAN WITH YOU?, THE SERVANTS REPLIED HE IS HELPING US AT OUR WORKAND AT THE END OF THE DAY WE WILL GIVE HIM WAGES FOR HIS WORK. IMAM SAID `HAVE YOU TALKED AND AGREED WITH HIM ON HIS WAGES, THEY SAID NO, BUT HE WILL BE PLEASED WITH WHATEVER WE GIVE HIM. THE IMAM BECAME VERY ANGRY WITH HIS SERVANTS. SULAYMAN JAFRI ASKED IMAM WHY YOU TAKING THIS SO HARD, HE SAID-..... ``I HAVE SEVERAL TIMES FORBIDDEN THEM FROM EMPLOYING SOMEONE TO WORK WITH THEM UNLESSD THEY AGREE ON THEIR WAGES; THEN HE SAID;

``KNOW THAT EVEN IF YOU PAY THREE TIMES MORE THAN THE AVERAGE WAGES TO SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR YOU WITHOUT PRIOR AGREEMENT, HE WILL STILL THINK THAT YOU HAVE UNDERPAID HIM. BUT IF YOU HAVE AGREED ON WAGES, AND THEN YOU PAY HIM THE WAGE, HE WILL THANK YOU FOR THE FULFILLMENT OF THAT AGREEMENT, AND IF YOU ADDED EVEN A LITTLE UPON IT, HE WILL RECOGNIZE IT AS YOUR GENEROSITY AND KNOW THAT YOU HAVE PAID HIM MORE.

(TAKEN FROM BUSINESS ETHICSD IN ISLAM,SAYED MOHAMAD RIZVI,2006,P49-50- REFRNCE-FURU AL KAFI)

2)SAYED AMMAR IS WORTH HIS PRICE IF YOU ARE A JAMAAT THAT CAN AFFORD. REASONS

A)THE ONLY SPEAKER I HAVE HEARD WHO RECITED THE WHOLE KHUTBA OF FADAK THROUGH MEMORY ON MIMBER

B)KHUTBA OF MUTAQIN THROUGH MEMORY FROM NAHJULBALAGHA THORUGH MEMORY

C)KHUTBA OF BIBI ZAYNEB AT KUFA AND SHAM THROUGH MEMORY

D)KHUTBA OF IMAM TO MALIK-E-ASHTER ON JUSTICE THROUGH MEMORY

I AND MY FATHER,AND MY GRANDFATHER, WHO HAVE HEARD MORE MAJALIS THAN PPL CAN COUNT, STATE THAT THE KHUTBAS HES MEMORIZED AND RECITED IN ONE RECITAL ON MIMBER THEY HAVE NOT HEARD THE GREATEST ZAKIRS RECITE.

HERE IS THE KHUTBA OF BIBI;

'Praise be to Allah for that which He bestowed (upon us); And thanks be to Him for all that which He inspired; and commended in His Name for that which He Provided: Form prevalent favors which He created, And abundant benefactions which He offered and perfect grants which He presented; (such benefactions) that their number is much too plentiful to compute; Bounties too vast to measure; Their limit was too distant to realize; He recommended to them (His creatures) to gain more (of His benefaction) by being grateful for their continuity; He ordained Himself praiseworthy by giving generously to His creatures; I bear witness that there is no God but Allah Who is One without partner, a statement which sincere devotion is made to be its interpretation; hearts guarantee its con­tinuation, and illuminated in the minds is its sensibility. He Who can not be perceived with vision; neither be described with tongues; nor can imagination surround His state.

He originated things but not from anything that existed be­fore them, and created them with­out examples to follow. Rather, He created them with His might and dispersed them according to His will; not for a need did He create them; nor for a benefit (for Him) did He shape them, But to establish His wisdom, Bring attention to His obedi­ence, manifest His might, lead His creatures to humbly vene­rate Him, and to exalt His decrees. He then made the reward for His obedience, and punishment for his dis­obedience, so as to protect His creatures from His Wrath and amass them into His Paradise.

I too bear witness that my Father, Muhammad, is His Slave and Messenger, Whom He chose prior to sending him, named him before sending him; when creatures were still concealed in that which was transcendental, guarded from that which was appalling, and associated with the termination and nonexistence. For Allah the Exalted knew that which was to follow, comprehended that which will come to pass, And realized the place of every event. Allah has sent him (Muhammad) as perfection for His commands, a resolution to accomplish His rule, and an implementation of the decrees of His Mercy. So he found the nations to vary in their faiths; Obsessed by their fires, Worshipping their idols, And denying Allah despite their knowledge of Him. Therefore, Allah illuminated their darkness with my Father, Muhammad, uncovered obscurity from their hearts, and cleared the clouds from their insights. He revealed guidance among the people; So he delivered them from being led astray, led them away from misguidance, guided them to the proper religion, and called them to the straight path.

Allah then chose to recall him back in mercy, love and pre­ference. So, Muhammad is in comfort from the burden of this world, he is surrounded with devoted angels, the satisfaction of the Merciful Lord, and the nearness of the powerful King.

So may the praise of Allah be upon my Father, His Prophet, Trusted one, the chosen one

from among His creatures, and His sincere friend, and may peace and blessings of

Allah be upon him.'

Fatima (A) then turned to the crowd and said:

'Surely you are Allah's slaves at His command Prohibition; You are the bearers of His religion and revelation; You are Allah's trusted ones with yourselves; and His messengers to the nations. Amongst you does He have righteous authority; A covenant He brought unto you, and an heir He left to guard you; That is The eloquent book of Allah; The truthful Quran; The brilliant light; The shining beam; Its insights are indisputable; Its secrets are revealed; Its indications are manifest; and its followers are blessed by it. (The Quran) leads its adherents to goodwill; and Hearing it leads to salvation; with it are the bright divine authorities achieved, His manifest determination acquired, His prohibited decrees avoided; His manifest evidence recognized; His satisfying proofs made apparent, His permissions granted, and His laws written.

So Allah made belief to be purification for you from poly­theism.

He made Prayer, An exaltation for you from conceit.

Alms -A purification for the soul and a (cause of) growth in subsistence.

Fasting an implantation of devotion.

Pilgrimage -A construction of religion.

Justice -A harmony of the hearts;

obeying us (Ahlul-Bayt)­Management of the nation.

Our leadership (Ahlul-Bayt), Safeguard from disunity.

Jihad (struggle)­ a strengthening of Islam.

Patience -A helping course for deserving (divine) reward.

Ordering goodness (Amr Bil Maruf)­ Public welfare.

Kindness to the parents­ A safeguard from wrath.

Maintaining close relations with one's kin -A cause for a longer life and multiplying the number of descend­ants.

Retaliation (Qesas)-For sparing blood (souls).

Fulfillment of vows-subjecting oneself to mercy.

Completion of weights and measures -A cause for preventing the neglect of others' rights. Forbiddance of drinking wines an exaltation from atrocity.

Avoiding slander -A veil from curse.

Abandoning theft-a reason for deserving chastity.

Allah has also prohibited polytheism so that one can devote himself to His Lordship.

Therefore; Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam;

Obey Allah in that which He has commanded you to do and that which He has forbidden, for surely those truly fear among His servants, who have knowledge.'

Lady Fatima Zahra (A) then added:

'O People! Be informed that I am Fatima, and my father is Muhammad I say that repeatedly and initiate it continually; I say not what I say mistakenly, nor do I do what I do aimlessly.

Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves; It grieves him that you should perish; Ardently anxious is he over you; To the believers he is most kind and merciful. Thus, if you identify and recog­nize him, you shall realize that he is my father and not the father of any of your women; the brother of my cousin (Ali (A)) rather than any of your men. What an excellent identity he was, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his descendants Thus, he propagated the Message, by coming out openly with the warning, and while inclined away from the path of the polytheists, (whom he) struck their strength and seized their throats, while he invited (all) to the way of his Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching He destroyed idols, and defeated heroes, until their group fled and turned their backs. So night revealed its dawn; righteousness uncovered its genuineness; the voice of the religious authority spoke out loud; the evil discords were silenced; The crown of hypocrisy was diminished; the tightening of infidelity and desertion were untied,

So you spoke the statement of devotion amongst a band of starved ones; and you were on the edge of a hole of fire;(you were) the drink of the thirsty one; the opportunity of the desiring one; the fire brand of him who passes in haste; the step for feet; you used to drink from the water gathered on roads; eat jerked meat. (Lady Fatima (A) was stating their lowly situation before Islam) You were despised outcasts always in fear of abduction from those around you. Yet, Allah rescued you through my father, Muhammad after much ado, and after he was confronted by mighty men, the Arab beasts, and the demons of the people of the Book Who, whenever they ignited the fire of war, Allah extinguished it; and whenever the thorn of the devil appeared, or a mouth of the polytheists opened wide in defiance, he would strike its discords with his brother (Ali, (A)), who comes not back until he treads its wing with the sole of his feet, and extinguishes its flames with his sword. (Ali is) diligent in Allah's affair, near to the Messenger of Allah, A master among Allah's worshippers, setting to work briskly, sincere in his advice, earnest and exerting himself (in service to Islam); While you were calm, gay, and feeling safe in your comfort­able lives, waiting for us to meet disasters, awaiting the spread of news, you fell back during every battle, and took to your heels at times of fighting. Yet, When Allah chose His Prophet from the dwell of His prophets, and the abode of His sincere (servants); The thorns of hypocrisy appeared on you, the garment of faith became worn out, The misguided ignorant(s) spoke out, the sluggish ignorant came to the front and brayed. The he camel of the vain wiggled his tail in your courtyards and the your courtyards and the Devil stuck his head from its place of hiding and called upon you, he found you respon­sive to his invitation, and observing his deceits. He then aroused you and found you quick (to answer him), and invited you to wrath, therefore; you branded other than your camels and proceeded to other than your drinking places. Then while the era of the Prophet was still near, the gash was still wide, the scar had not yet healed, and the Messenger was not yet buried. A (quick) undertaking as you claimed, aimed at preventing discord (trial), Surely, they have fallen into trial already! And indeed Hell surrounds the unbelievers. How preposterous! What an idea!

What a falsehood! For Allah's Book is still amongst you, its affairs are apparent; its rules are manifest; its signs are dazzling; its restrictions are visible, and its commands are evident. Yet, indeed you have casted it behind your backs! What! Do you detest it? Or according to something else you wish to rule? Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers! And if anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), it never will it be accepted from him; And in the hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surely you have not waited until its stampede seized, and it became obedient. You then started arousing its flames, instigating its coal, complying with the call of the misled devil, quenching the light of the manifest reli­gion, and extinguished the light of the sincere Prophet. You concealed sips on froth and proceeded towards his (the Prophet) kin and children in swamps and forests (meaning you plot against them in deceitful ways), but we are patient with you as if we are being notched with knives and stung by spearheads in our abdomens, Yet-now you claim that there is not inheritance for us! What! "Do they then seek after a judgment of (the Days of)ignorance? But How, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah? Don't you know? Yes, indeed it is obvious to you that I am his daughter.

O Muslims! Will my inheritance be usurped? O son of Abu Quhafa! Where is it in the Book of Allah that you inherit your father and I do not inherit mine? Surely you have come up with an unprecedented thing. Do you intentionally abandon the Book of Allah and cast it behind your back? Do you not read where it says: And Sulaiman inherited Dawood'?

And when it narrates the story of Zakariya and says: `So give me an heir as from thyself (One that) will inherit me, and inherit the posterity of Yaqoob' And: `But kindred by hood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah'

And: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females' And, If he leaves any goods, that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin, according to reasonable usage; this is due from the pious ones.' You claim that I have no share! And that I do not inherit my father! What! Did Allah reveal a (Quranic) verse regarding you, from which He excluded my father? Or do you say: `These (Fatima and her father) are the people of two faiths, they do not inherit each other?!' Are we not, me and my father, a people adhering to one faith? Or is it that you have more knowledge about the specifi­cations and generalizations of the Quran than my father and my cousin (Imam Ali)? So, here you are! Take it! (Ready with) its nose rope and saddled! But if shall encounter you on the Day of Gathering; (thus) what a wonder­ful judge is Allah, a claimant is Muhammad, and a day is the Day of Rising. At the time of the Hour shall the wrongdoers lose; and it shall not benefit you to regret (your actions) then! For every Message, there is a time limit; and soon shall ye know who will be inflicted with torture that will humiliate him, and who will be confronted by an everlasting punishment. (Fatima then turned towards the Ansars and said:) O you people of intellect! The strong supporters of the nation! And those who embraced Islam; What is this short-coming in defending my right? And what is this slumber (while you see) injustice (being done toward me)? Did not the Messenger of Allah, my father, used to say: A man is upheld (remembered) by his children'? O how quick have you violated (his orders)?! How soon have you plotted against us? But you still are capable (of helping me in) my attempt, and powerful (to help me) in that which I request and (in) my pursuit (of it). Or do you say: "Muhammad has perished;"

Surely this is a great calamity; Its damage is excessive its injury is great, Its wound (is much too deep) to heal. The Earth became darkened with his departure; the stars eclipsed for his calamity; hopes were seized; mountains submitted; sanctity was violated, and holiness was encroached upon after his death. Therefore, this, by Allah, is the great affliction, and the grand calamity; there is not an affliction-which is the like of it; nor will there be a sudden misfortune (as surprising as this).

The Book of Allah-excellent in praising him-announced in the courtyards (of your houses) in the place where you spend your evenings and mornings; A call, A cry, A recitation, and (verses) in order. It had previously came upon His (Allah's) Prophets and Messengers; (for it is) A decree final, and a pre­destination fulfilled: "Muhammad is not but an Apostle: Many were the apostles that passed away before him. If he died or was slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude." O you people of reflection; will I be usurped the inheritance of my father while you hear and see me?! (And while) You are sitting and gathered around me? You hear my call, and are included in the (news of the) affair? (But) You are numerous and well equipped! (You have) the means and the power, and the weapons and the shields. Yet, the call reaches you but you do not answer; the cry comes to you but you do not come to help? (This) While you are characterized by struggle, known for goodness and welfare, the selected group (which was chosen), and the best ones chosen by the Messenger for us, Ahlul-Bayt. You fought the Arabs, bore with pain and exhaustion, struggled against the nations, and resisted their heroes. We were still, so were you in ordering you, and you in obeying us. So that Islam became triumphant, the accomplishment of the days came near, the fort of polytheism was subjected, the outburst of was subjected, the outburst of infidelity calmed down, and the system of religion was well-ordered. Thus, (why have you) become con­fused after clearness? Conceal matters after announcing them? Turned on your heels after daring? Associated (others with Allah) after believing? Will you not fight people who violated their oaths? Plotted to expel the Apostle and became aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if you believe! Nevertheless, I see that you are inclined to easy living; dismissed he who is more worthy of guardianship (Ali (A)); You secluded yourselves with meekness and dismissed that which you accepted. Yet, if you show ingratitude, ye and all on earth together, yet, Allah free of all wants, worthy of all praise. Surely I have said all that I have said with full knowledge that you intent to forsake me, and knowing the betrayal that your hearts sensed. But it is the state of soul, the effusion of fury, the dissemination of (what is) the chest and the presentation of the proof. Hence, Here it is! Bag it (leadership and) put it on the back of an ill she­ camel, which has a thin hump with everlasting grace, marked with the wrath of Allah, and the blame of ever (which leads to) the Fire of (the wrath of Allah kindled (to a blaze), that which doth mount (right) to the hearts; For, Allah witnesses what you do, and soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take! And I am the daughter of a warner (the Prophet) to you against a severe punishment. So, act and so will we, and wait, and we shall wait.'

(The end of Lady Fatima's speech.)

SO HO LONG DOES IT TAKE TO MEMORIZE THIS? I WANT US TO IMAGINE FOR EVERY HOUR YOU TAKE TO MEMORIZE THIS, AND THE REST OF THE HOURS YOU TAKE TO PREPARE THE REST OF THE LECTURE, AND YOU FELL THAT WHAT HE CHARGES IS A LOT? I AM PROUD THE NEXT GENERATION HAVE HIM THAN SOME OF WHAT WE HAD A FEW YEARS BACK!

3)STEED IS TRUE TO THE POINT- FROM WHAT WAS MEANT TO BE A PURE DISCUSSION- HAS BECOME PERSONAL ATTACKS, WHERE NAMES OF DEVIL AND UMAR,DECIEVERS ARE MENTIONED.

IMAM ALI- DO NOT LOOK AT WHO IS SPEAKING , LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING

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(please post this one)

Salams brother 'the one who writes long passages',

Yes the students in Qum should go out and work - because then they know what working life is all about, instead of relying on meagre handouts - and they will also get their hands dirty and will know what a 9-5 job is instead of having their heads ploughed in books all day, that is the reality of life. And people wanting to learn from the west don't really need to go to Qum nowadays - because there are great centres of learning in the west aswell - so they don't need to suffer so much, and they can live with a little more comfort, as some scholars choose to do, does that make them a lesser scholar than those who haven't studied in Qum, obviously those who wear balck and white turbans would say, yes, they haven't graced the hallowed halls of Qum and therefore they are not worthy of gracing the mimbar. If they want to live a meagre life, then they can live a meagre life - even if you are a billionaire you can live a meagre life. If you study in the west there is a lot more temptation aswell and tribulations of faith aswell compared to eastern countries.

As people here probably know, living in the west is not cheap. If you have a mortgage then you have to pay probably in the range of £10K to £15K a year. Then there are also a number of other expenses i.e. car, insurance, electricals probably on a monthly basis you will be paying in the region of £1.5 - £2K a month. If you have a child then you are even more stretched. Therefore for those who wish to pursue the path of lecturing which is not an easy job (going around the world away from home, for months on end, having to live away from family and friends, having the pressures of a demanding schedule to keep) they somehow have to live. Now, some people would say - why don't these people go and live in caves, and eat dried bread like saints and ascetics then they will learn the meaning of a hard life. But good luck to them, the try and make their living by giving inspirational and uplifting talks to the masses to try and make them closer to Allah (SWT), and it is not upto us to judge what is in their hearts, because Allah (SWT) is the judge of that, and so far most of the statements here are mere speculation which seem to have been instigated by one or two individuals in an orchestrated fashion - I don't see the other 14,999 members humming and arring, just a few genial nods of agreement yes you wrote a big passage with lots of hadith and ayah and wow you're so clever and you have opened our eyes.

Brother 'I won't mention his name' is a clever guy. I am sure if he had wanted to he could have been a high flier earning many thousands of pounds and living a very comfortable life in the west - he is not stupid, but a highly intelligent person. In fact he has more than one degree and if he was to pursue even a career in teaching then he would be doing rather well for himself. But he chose the path of being a lecturer a zakir. Alhamdullillah, he is self sufficient, he is in a way self taught, inshallah he has a pure heart but only Allah (SWT) can tell that. From the lectures that he gives youths and adults respond very well to him, and he inspires them. Therefore let us stop judging 'him whose name we won't mention'. Let us not coin imaginary phrases such as 'the commercialisation of Islam' , 'let us not run personal vendettas' in the name of betterment of the community. If you think you can do better then go and do it for free - travel to Newzealand, Australia, America, Canada, dubai paying yourself, pay for your own accomodation, give the lectures for free - I am sure people will love you even more, and you will love yourself even more as a result. And if you want free accommodation, then you can make life difficult for yourself then you can go and meditate in a cave and eat dried berries.

wsalams

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In His Name, the Most High

Salam

First off: please brother janali, turn off your CAPS LOCK while writing. Capital letters in an online discussion mean either that one emphasizes on something, that he is getting too emotional or that he is screaming. We are having a mature and intellectual discussion so there is no need to get emotional. I hope you just forgot to turn of your CAPS LOCK though. :)

Anyhow, getting to your post:

SULAYMAN BIN JAFAR AL JAFARI SAYS THAT ONE DAY HE WENT WITH IMAM REDHA TO THE LATTERS HOME. WHEN THEY REACHED THE HOUSE ASND ENTERED THE COURTYARD, THEY SAW THE SERVANTS OF THE IMAM BUSY DOING THEIR WORK. THE IMAM NOTICED A STRANGER AMONGST HIS WORKERS. IMAM SAID `WHO IS THE MAN WITH YOU?, THE SERVANTS REPLIED HE IS HELPING US AT OUR WORKAND AT THE END OF THE DAY WE WILL GIVE HIM WAGES FOR HIS WORK. IMAM SAID `HAVE YOU TALKED AND AGREED WITH HIM ON HIS WAGES, THEY SAID NO, BUT HE WILL BE PLEASED WITH WHATEVER WE GIVE HIM. THE IMAM BECAME VERY ANGRY WITH HIS SERVANTS. SULAYMAN JAFRI ASKED IMAM WHY YOU TAKING THIS SO HARD, HE SAID-..... ``I HAVE SEVERAL TIMES FORBIDDEN THEM FROM EMPLOYING SOMEONE TO WORK WITH THEM UNLESSD THEY AGREE ON THEIR WAGES; THEN HE SAID;

``KNOW THAT EVEN IF YOU PAY THREE TIMES MORE THAN THE AVERAGE WAGES TO SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR YOU WITHOUT PRIOR AGREEMENT, HE WILL STILL THINK THAT YOU HAVE UNDERPAID HIM. BUT IF YOU HAVE AGREED ON WAGES, AND THEN YOU PAY HIM THE WAGE, HE WILL THANK YOU FOR THE FULFILLMENT OF THAT AGREEMENT, AND IF YOU ADDED EVEN A LITTLE UPON IT, HE WILL RECOGNIZE IT AS YOUR GENEROSITY AND KNOW THAT YOU HAVE PAID HIM MORE.

(TAKEN FROM BUSINESS ETHICSD IN ISLAM,SAYED MOHAMAD RIZVI,2006,P49-50- REFRNCE-FURU AL KAFI)

You are twisting the meaing of the hadith 180 degrees. The hadith is valid in its context but has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Tto lecture about Islam is not a worldly proffession you should make a profit from. You are making promotion of Islam like a worldly job but Subhan Allah Islam is far higher and sacred then to be a job. This is what I'm refering to when saying "commercial Islam". Islam isn't commercial so you should agree on a certain payment for it!!

Look what the Holy Quran says:

"O you who believe! when the call is made for prayer on Friday, then hasten to the remembrance of Allah and leave off trading; that is better for you, if you know."

(The Holy Quran 62:9)

Meaing when it's time for the Salat al-Jumah, leave trading, work and all the worldly job and come to God, for that is far better. Now isn't it contradictionary to make people hasten to a lecture about Islam while the lecturer himself has made his lecture a trade and profit?!

Moving on:

SAYED AMMAR IS WORTH HIS PRICE IF YOU ARE A JAMAAT THAT CAN AFFORD. REASONS

A)THE ONLY SPEAKER I HAVE HEARD WHO RECITED THE WHOLE KHUTBA OF FADAK THROUGH MEMORY ON MIMBER

B)KHUTBA OF MUTAQIN THROUGH MEMORY FROM NAHJULBALAGHA THORUGH MEMORY

C)KHUTBA OF BIBI ZAYNEB AT KUFA AND SHAM THROUGH MEMORY

D)KHUTBA OF IMAM TO MALIK-E-ASHTER ON JUSTICE THROUGH MEMORY

Excuse me respected brother but what kind of logic is this? The value of a person lays in his understanding, not in his memorization. Look at this video:

A Parrot Reciting the Holy Quran and Shahadah

What is the difference between yourself and this parrot? What else is the difference if not your understanding of what you actually are saying, while the parrot only repeats empty words?!

Masha Allah so Mr. Nakshawani has memorized these khotbas, alhamdu lillah, may God increase his memory, but how much of it has he truly understood? And how much of what he truly has understood does he really practise?

By comments like the audio clip I brought forth (Nakshawani >> Muharram 2008 >> Night of Ashura >> Generosity >> Charging for Islam) he shows that he clearly hasn't understood what he has memorized.

Again the Holy Quran is very harsh towards people who have memorized but do not practise:

"The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people."

(The Holy Quran 62:5)

Subhan Allah these words truly awakens us from our slumber!! I don't know what else to say. I'm speaking with Quran and Ahl al-Bayt(A) and I'm only being answered with people's sentiments.

Until when will we sleep on in this nightmare?!

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In His Name the Most High

Salaams

There are again a number of posts that require responses, so we shall try and take them one at a time insha Allah:

Our society has this problem of worshipping just any person who comes in front of the people, utters some hadith, and verses from the Quran. If people get the kind of majlis/lecture that they want/like or "woo to" ,that's it, they're happy... they don't care whether that particular person deserved to sit on the mimbar of the Prophet or not. So pathetic!

In actuality Islam just isn't as important to many as other worldy affairs, as you mentioned.... people would make sure they're going to the right doctor, but it does'nt matter to them if a speaker of their community is saying [Edited Out] or behaving [Edited Out].

Sadly, this is a phenomenon that is travelling through the Muslim communities, but alhamdu lillah on the positive side there are those who are aware of this issue and are working to resolve this dangerous problem. Insha Allah, with Allah's assistance, things will improve; please always make Dua' for the Return of our Master, Imam al-Hujjah(AJ), for surely with his return, these problems will swiftly be alleviated, Ameen.

(salam)

It seems a lot of people's criteria for knowledge is the charisma of the lecturer. Minbaris like Sayyid Modaressi and Sayyid Nakhshwani need to be more mindful of the subjects they speak on from the pulpit. While both of them deliver a beautiful Masaib I dont think either of them should be delivering lectures from the minbar given false information they continually repeat from there. Perhaps a mic and podium would be a better forum for them....

ws

I agree my respected brother; but this is a legacy left over from pre-Islamic days, when the poets and singers were lauded for their charisma and "pazaz", and indeed in non-Islamic society (and sadly in some Islamic even), this is the same situation and level given to pop-stars and movie actors and actresses.

In Surah al-Munafeqoon, Allah warns us and I have quoted this ayah previously; but it's explanation is stunning in this regard - and I'm not explicitly speaking of any speaker in particular but generally about this phenomenon that I can see sweeping the Ummah of Muhammad(S), so much so that we have those who recite poetry and lamentations about Aba Abdillah(A) and Zahra al-Batoul(A) but the focus of the camera lense is on their face and expressions; and this induces a situation where the viewer of said material is more transfixed with the "performer" and less by his content.

This is a very important point; and returns back to a hadeeth quoted by Br/Sis Janali where he says:

Imam Ali(A) - Do not look at who is speaking, rather look at what they are saying

I have fixed the English translation and removed the capitalization as it was giving me a headache and is not good netiquette.

The reality of the situation is that people sadly do not look at what is being said - as instructed by the Commander of the Faithful(A), rather they look at who is doing the saying, the what has become less important than the who; and this is where everything begins to fall apart.

I agree whole heartedly with you about certain speakers, they have a gift at maddahi (reciting the lamentational euglogies and descriptions, as well as speaking on the virtues and excellence of the Ahl al-Bayt(A)), but have a less than optimal level of Islamic Knowledge, it is for this reason that the concept of allowing such speakers to have a microphone and podium - as opposed to the mimbar (pulpit) of the Rasul(S) - is an excellent idea.

The mimbar is not something small to be laughed at - it is not somewhere to gesticulate violently from, it is a place of decorum and learning, a place where the words of Allah, the lessons of the Awliya(A) of Allah are to be discussed, a place of calm and serenity.

One of the understandings of the hadeeth regarding monkeys on the mimbar that I have quoted earlier is exactly that, and this requires reflection and contemplation.

In Iran and elsewhere in the Islamic world; there is a well known practice that a program will be comprised of two distinct portions; the "ilmi" (knowledge bearing) portion and a "faza'ili or masa'ibi" (virtue exhalting or tragedy recollecting) portion; each of these portions are performed by two distinct speakers; both skilled in their respective areas.

The Alem (Scholar of Islam), will give the people a lesson that they will come away from the session having learned something from the teachings of Quran and Ahl al-Bayt(A); and the Maddah will show the people the tragedy or virtues of the Ahl al-Bayt(A), and will break the hearts of the people and make them cry in pain as he recounts in a most eloquant and beautiful manner the events that hurt the Aimmah(A) and when he speaks of how the people betrayed and broke the heart of the most beloved creatures of Allah, the Ma'sumeen upon whome be the peace and blessing of Allah eternally.

Both speakers have their own strengths, and it protects both speakers from overstepping their boundaries. The Maddah has to learn the historical elements, has to have a poetic understanding and must have learning and understanding of the lives of the Ahl al-Bayt(A), the Alem on the other hand has to have a deeper and more complete grounding in Islamic Sciences, that he might give the people a lesson that will impact their lives; and that will be sealed into their hearts by the beautiful words of the Maddah. The two work in complete synchronicity, one complementing the other; the Alem complementing the Maddah and the Maddah complementing the Alem.

In some societies these two distinct and demanding roles are combined into a single person; and this is where the problems arise. One might have a desire to do Maddahi, might have a poetic disposition, might have eloquence and knowledge of historical events, might even have memorized sayings, lessons and such of the Ahl al-Bayt(A), but lacks the formal understanding and reasoning capacity to deduce teachings without endangering both himself and the people being lectured to, and accidently without having any negative intention might be condemning himself to a terrible fate.

One might - if one is the only speaker - and is expected to teach as well as give accounts of the tragedies of Ahl al-Bayt(A), one might if one is lacking in understanding and wisdom, one might fall into a trap whereby one gives a lesson which overtly might seem correct, but in reality is broken and confusing. One might not use clear words to explain and theory, not deliberately, but on account of a lack of understanding.

To understand this further; an example can be utilized:

If one has a desire to practice medicine, it is not enough for one to watch the television, to read online, to know of big medical breakthroughs and have seen the surgery performed, even live at a publically viewable operating theatre or on a television channel. One has to indeed spend time studying this science, and regardless of whether a person has memorised Gray's Anatomy, or at-Tib of Avicenna, or has watched numerous surgeons perform complex surgery time and time again, until one is qualified to practice the medical sciences, one is unable to do so.

The most one can do; is to provide and introduction or applaud the efforts of great medical practioners and scientists who have move medical science, perhaps even learning their history and speaking of their lives and how they discovered what they discovered.

Practising medicine, requires a different type of study, and having an appreciation or understanding of medical history and events is another type of study. Both are valid, but by no means are both the same.

The same is true with Islam; and indeed it is more true with Islam.

It is possible for an Alem to recount the tragedies and virtues of the Aimmah(A), however it is not valid nor it is possible for a non-Alem (regardless of their command of various languages, lineiage, eloquance or even knowledge of various subjects), if they are a non-Alem, then it is NOT possible for them to give a lesson a correct and valid lesson to the people without putting both himself and the audience at risk of misguidance - at the very least of creating a situation where Shaytaan can manipulate the speaker with the vices of Riya' and 'Ujb.

That is not to say the Alem is not susceptable to these vices, indeed the attacks by Shaytaan upon the Alem are stronger, but a true Alem will be at least aware of the attacks and will the appropriate action to try and circumvent these attacks, and will have the ability to prevent misguidence of the people by clarifying his lesson and point in depth and in a manner that leaves as little doubt as possible.

This is why our Aimmah(A) used to give lessons to the people; and used to invite maddahs such as Farazdaq(A), or De'bel(A) to speak to people about the tragedy and virtues of the Ahl al-Bayt(A). The practice of having an Alem and a Maddah is the Sunnah of the Prophet(S) and Aimmah(A), and indeed anything that merges both is not just dangerous but arguably a modification of that method practiced by Prophet(S) and Aimmah(A) as explained above.

It is very important to realise and understand this.

Both are skillsets that are in massive demand within the Muslim Ummah, no doubt in that at all; and to the poster who spoke of supply and demand, I agree the demand is massive and the supply is percieved as short (the reality is somewhat different, as many a good and indeed knowledgable speaker are left by the wayside for many many reasons, but that is another discussion for another day; suffice it to say; that there are sufficient speakers in the required languages; those organising sessions need but look around and perchance they may find insha Allah if intentions are sincere and Allah's assistance is sought); I agree that the percieved supply is short and as a result; the people are forced to endure a less than perfect situation, but as I've explained, this is invalid and wrong, and there are speakers to fill the requirements - both in terms of Maddahi as well as Ulema.

(salam)

1)I see no problem in SAYEDS words.Mawlana came to our majalis for ashre-muharam, we said to him mawlana directly please tell us how much shall we pay you, he said whatever you can , i serve imam, when he finished we gave him 5,000, he said please take it back,are you serious , do you know how much my home country would give me, he was very disappointed.

SULAYMAN BIN JAFAR AL JAFARI SAYS THAT ONE DAY HE WENT WITH IMAM REDHA TO THE LATTERS HOME. WHEN THEY REACHED THE HOUSE ASND ENTERED THE COURTYARD, THEY SAW THE SERVANTS OF THE IMAM BUSY DOING THEIR WORK. THE IMAM NOTICED A STRANGER AMONGST HIS WORKERS. IMAM SAID `WHO IS THE MAN WITH YOU?, THE SERVANTS REPLIED HE IS HELPING US AT OUR WORKAND AT THE END OF THE DAY WE WILL GIVE HIM WAGES FOR HIS WORK. IMAM SAID `HAVE YOU TALKED AND AGREED WITH HIM ON HIS WAGES, THEY SAID NO, BUT HE WILL BE PLEASED WITH WHATEVER WE GIVE HIM. THE IMAM BECAME VERY ANGRY WITH HIS SERVANTS. SULAYMAN JAFRI ASKED IMAM WHY YOU TAKING THIS SO HARD, HE SAID-..... ``I HAVE SEVERAL TIMES FORBIDDEN THEM FROM EMPLOYING SOMEONE TO WORK WITH THEM UNLESSD THEY AGREE ON THEIR WAGES; THEN HE SAID;

``KNOW THAT EVEN IF YOU PAY THREE TIMES MORE THAN THE AVERAGE WAGES TO SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR YOU WITHOUT PRIOR AGREEMENT, HE WILL STILL THINK THAT YOU HAVE UNDERPAID HIM. BUT IF YOU HAVE AGREED ON WAGES, AND THEN YOU PAY HIM THE WAGE, HE WILL THANK YOU FOR THE FULFILLMENT OF THAT AGREEMENT, AND IF YOU ADDED EVEN A LITTLE UPON IT, HE WILL RECOGNIZE IT AS YOUR GENEROSITY AND KNOW THAT YOU HAVE PAID HIM MORE.

(TAKEN FROM BUSINESS ETHICSD IN ISLAM,SAYED MOHAMAD RIZVI,2006,P49-50- REFRNCE-FURU AL KAFI)

2)SAYED AMMAR IS WORTH HIS PRICE IF YOU ARE A JAMAAT THAT CAN AFFORD. REASONS

A)THE ONLY SPEAKER I HAVE HEARD WHO RECITED THE WHOLE KHUTBA OF FADAK THROUGH MEMORY ON MIMBER

B)KHUTBA OF MUTAQIN THROUGH MEMORY FROM NAHJULBALAGHA THORUGH MEMORY

C)KHUTBA OF BIBI ZAYNEB AT KUFA AND SHAM THROUGH MEMORY

D)KHUTBA OF IMAM TO MALIK-E-ASHTER ON JUSTICE THROUGH MEMORY

I AND MY FATHER,AND MY GRANDFATHER, WHO HAVE HEARD MORE MAJALIS THAN PPL CAN COUNT, STATE THAT THE KHUTBAS HES MEMORIZED AND RECITED IN ONE RECITAL ON MIMBER THEY HAVE NOT HEARD THE GREATEST ZAKIRS RECITE.

HERE IS THE KHUTBA OF BIBI;

SO HO LONG DOES IT TAKE TO MEMORIZE THIS? I WANT US TO IMAGINE FOR EVERY HOUR YOU TAKE TO MEMORIZE THIS, AND THE REST OF THE HOURS YOU TAKE TO PREPARE THE REST OF THE LECTURE, AND YOU FELL THAT WHAT HE CHARGES IS A LOT? I AM PROUD THE NEXT GENERATION HAVE HIM THAN SOME OF WHAT WE HAD A FEW YEARS BACK!

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3)STEED IS TRUE TO THE POINT- FROM WHAT WAS MEANT TO BE A PURE DISCUSSION- HAS BECOME PERSONAL ATTACKS, WHERE NAMES OF DEVIL AND UMAR,DECIEVERS ARE MENTIONED.

IMAM ALI- DO NOT LOOK AT WHO IS SPEAKING , LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING

My respected Br/Sis Janali; I too, like my respected Br Ehsan would like to ask you to be calm, and take a deep breath, to recite a few salawaat on Muhammad(S) and Aal-i-Muhammad(A) and regain your composure.

No-one is badmouthing anyone; if anyone's dignity has been put into question; then it is purely on account of that person's actions; as our Master, and the Maula of all the Mutaqeen, Haider al-Karrar, Ali ibn Abi Talib(A) has said in one of his amazing sayings; each of which are an ocean of understanding, wisdom, comprehension and each of which increase the belief of those who understand them:

If someone's deeds lower his position, his pedigree cannot elevate it.

That having been said; I appologise for removing your copy and paste of the Khutba of Fatema az-Zahra(A), while it is naturally an excellent lesson for all, and requires deep thought, discussion, reflection and contemplation upon; it is not the subject of our discussion here; I appreciate you had presented it for effect; and in recognition of the level of memorization of Mr Nakhshawani, but the issue here is not the powers of memorization of that person; infact the the subject here is not about the person you feel it is about; it is far larger than a single individual, it is about the manner of implementation of the Institution of the Majles as taught by the Ahl al-Bayt(A).

As Br Ehsan has explained, to memorize is nothing special; defiantely there is a virtue in it; and Allah will no doubt reward one who memorizes that which is excellent to memorize; the first of those being the Quran; followed by the Adiyaat and Ziyaraat, followed by all else, this is well known and should be quite obvious really.

In memorizing something, a person doesn't immediately become one who understands and acts upon said item, that requires effort, diligence, dedication and commitment, and more important it requires learning, comprehension, understanding, reflection and time.

If we were to start asking those who have memorized things to come and teach us; then we should first look to our brothers of the Sunnah who are masters at memorization of that which is best to memorize; the Quran. But we cannot; because while our brothers of the Sunnah are good, and we pray to Allah that He should in His infinite mercy guide them and increase their knowledge and understanding; they have not gained from their efforts in memorization of the Quran; that which is the core of the Quran.

What I mean is that if anyone truely understands the Quran; then for that person; acceptance of the Wilayah of Imam Ali(A), and of the Aimmah al-Athaar(A) is obvious and clear; many places in Quran describe the Wilayah of the Aimmah(A); not least of which is Surah al-Maidah, Ayaat 55-56:

ÅöäøóãóÇ æóáöíøõßõãõ Çááøóåõ æóÑóÓõæáõåõ æóÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó íõÞöíãõæäó ÇáÕøóáóÇÉó æóíõÄúÊõæäó ÇáÒøóßóÇÉó æóåõãú ÑóÇßöÚõæäó [٥-٥٥]

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

æóãóä íóÊóæóáøó Çááøóåó æóÑóÓõæáóåõ æóÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÝóÅöäøó ÍöÒúÈó Çááøóåö åõãõ ÇáúÛóÇáöÈõæäó [٥-٥٦]

And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.

(Quran, Surah al-Maidah, Ayaat 55-56)

Our brother from the Sunnah, has memorized these ayaat completely; and possibly even give you a version of the English meaning of it; however, sadly he is far from understanding these ayaat; for had he understood the core of the Ayaat, then he would immediately recognize the Wilayah of Imam Ali(A); and reject those who worked against Imam Ali(A). This is very simple and self-explanatory.

Therefore; through logical reasoning; it is invalid to suggest that memorization equals comprehension and understanding of a given item; which while memorized, is not neccessarily understood (beyond basic linguistic understanding) or comprehended as it should be.

I will take an example of that which you have mentioned; you have suggested that Mr Nakhshawani has memorized Khutbat al-Muttaqeen of Imam Ali(A). Masha Allah, very good; this is a very good and very important Khutbah, but my question revolves around the question that has he understood it as it should be understood? Has he understood why Hammam asked Imam Ali(A), why Imam Ali(A) was hesitant, and why Hammam passed out and ultimately died after hearing this Khutbah of Ameer al-Mu'mineen(A) - beyond the superficial understanding I mean?

In the Hawza, the students spend years, nay decades understanding and comprehending the words of Imam Ali(A); they might not memorize them, but they understand them, and the true Islamic Students attempt to apply them as they learn them; which leads to an important lesson given to the Hawza students (and indeed applicable to all) by the well known Alem and A'ref; Ayatullah al-Udhma Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Behjat(HA):

Once, some hawza students from Lebanon requested Ayatullah Behjat(HA) for spiritual and Akhlaqi (moral) advice. He replied:

“One of the most beneficial actions in these matters is to sit with your fellow students every day and study one hadith from the chapter Jihad an-Nafs of the book Wasail ash-Shi’a of Shaykh Hurr al-Amili(RA).

Of course, the hadith must be discussed properly, pondered over carefully and then transformed into action.

This will be a spiritual tonic that within one year, will transform an individual in a way that he will himself see the change.”

Bargi az Daftar-e Aftaab (A Leaf from the Book of Radiance). (About the Life of Ayatullah Behjat).

While it might not be possible or indeed practical for all of us to read or understand the given chapter from Wasail (for a plethora of reasons; not least of which is access to the source material through linguistic issues for example), we can all surely learn from the lesson; wherein we must first learn something; apply it; and then move onto the next item.

This is common sense and logical. If we are in an academic environment, we are studying a book on science for example; and we're studying Newtons Laws of Motion; we must first learn and understand the first law, then move onto the second and so on. We can't just keep reading; not understanding and "making it up" as this will lead to our ultimate failure and confusion. This is normal and commen sense. In an Islamic environment; we must all start to practice that which we have learned; we must practice that which we have learned prior to preaching and teaching to others. Key in all of this is Akhlaq, we must first have a personality that is reliable and trustworthy and able to teach.

Prophet Muhammad(S), prior to declaring Islam publically; built his reputation thought his excellent and righteous conduct, such that when he taught Islam, no-one had any valid reason to object; and his reputation and personality were completely intact - such that even when the enemies hated him and wanted him dead, they testified that he was the most Trustworthy and that He was the most honest and well mannered person in all of Arabia.

Subhan Allah, this requires reflection; because Quran tells us that we have in the Prophet Muhammad(S), the most perfect and the best of role models:

áøóÞóÏú ßóÇäó áóßõãú Ýöí ÑóÓõæáö Çááøóåö ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ áøöãóä ßóÇäó íóÑúÌõæ Çááøóåó æóÇáúíóæúãó ÇáúÂÎöÑó æóÐóßóÑó Çááøóåó ßóËöíÑðÇ [٣٣-٢١]

Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

(Quran, Surah al-Ahzaab, Ayah 21)

Since it was the practice of the Prophet(S) to first perfect himself (in the eyes of the people; since we know that the Prophet(S) was, has been and will always be the best of the best of Allah's creation) prior to teaching.

This is important and required, and these are the common muqadamati (introductory) lessons that are given (naturally is considerably more depth than is viable on a post!!) to a new Hawza Student.

Now onto your point my respected Brother/Sister. Yes it takes effort to memorize; but that memorization is not purely for giving a lecture; as the lecture will not be a vebatim rendition of a given Khutba, that memorization is out of love for Allah, and for those who are loved by Allah and who love Allah.

If the intention in memorizing is to show the people; then there is already a big issue with the entire situation and anyone - who does anything for the sake of showing people or obtaining benefit or "praise" from the people; should be weary of themselves; and I invite anyone with any doubt in this to read the following lessons from a great Alem of our time, and one who raised his level in Islamic Ethics and Ettiquete (Akhlaq and Adaab) to lofty hieghts, Imam Ruhullah al-Musawi al-Khumayni(A):

1/ Imam Khumayni(A) :: Forty Hadeeth :: Hadeeth #2 On Riya'

2/ Imam Khumayni(A) :: Forty Hadeeth :: Hadeeth #3 On 'Ujb

3/ Imam Khumayni(A) :: Forty Hadeeth :: Hadeeth #4 On Kibr

4/ Imam Khumayni(A) :: Forty Hadeeth :: Hadeeth #6 On Love of the World

5/ Imam Khumayni(A) :: Forty Hadeeth :: Hadeeth #24 On the Seekers of Knowledge

All of the Fourty Hadeeth of Imam KhumayniÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã are an excellent lesson, and each one of them can be discussed for days, months and years, they can change a person if he acts on the lessons, and they can take him to the loftiest of hieghts and create an awareness of Allah that will open ones eyes; if only one studies them with sincerety and diligence and with the purest of intentions.

Also, simply memorizing is not enough; one has to have the ability to convey it's message to the people; however; memorizing has a value to a maddah, in that he can quote directly from it; without having to explain it when speaking of the tragedies that befell Ahl al-Bayt(A) or speaking of the virtues of Ahl al-Bayt(A).

You are therefore; by your own argument, suggesting that Mr Nakhshwani is infact a Maddah, as opposed to an Alem, and as a result his role (as explained above), is not to teach the people; but rather to recite the virtues and lamentations and tragedies of Ahl al-Bayt(A). Should he wish to become Alem or at least a talabeh, then he needs to study, study and then study some more, he needs to break his ego; regardless of how humble he is, and then rebuild based on that which he has studied and learned from the Ulema and the many teachers of the Islamic Seminaries. This is the best advise that I can give to Mr Nakhshwani - if you are able to pass this onto him; then I ask you to please do so, I have also advised another who has claimed to be a "disciple of Ammar" to do the same, and pass the advise of this small insignificant Islamic Student onto him.

Also; if anyone has issues with Imam Khumayni(A); and I know there are some herein who do; I would invite them to refer to the hadeeth of Imam Ali(A) quoted by Br/Sister Janali:

Imam Ali(A) - Do not look at who is speaking, rather look at what they are saying

I would geniunely invite all to read and learn from this; as well as from the excellent book Gunahaan-e-Kabireh (Major Sins) of Shaheed Mehrab, Ayatullah Dastaghaib ShiraziÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã

If you are able to find yourself an Alem, locally where you are; and ask him to teach you from this book; it is by far one of the most important books of our time, and if a believer can follow and understand that which Shahhed-e-Mehrab Dasteghaib-Shirazi(A) has taught and written, then surely many of the vices within the Ummah will disappear.

(please post this one)

Salams brother 'the one who writes long passages',

Yes the students in Qum should go out and work - because then they know what working life is all about, instead of relying on meagre handouts - and they will also get their hands dirty and will know what a 9-5 job is instead of having their heads ploughed in books all day, that is the reality of life. And people wanting to learn from the west don't really need to go to Qum nowadays - because there are great centres of learning in the west aswell - so they don't need to suffer so much, and they can live with a little more comfort, as some scholars choose to do, does that make them a lesser scholar than those who haven't studied in Qum, obviously those who wear balck and white turbans would say, yes, they haven't graced the hallowed halls of Qum and therefore they are not worthy of gracing the mimbar. If they want to live a meagre life, then they can live a meagre life - even if you are a billionaire you can live a meagre life. If you study in the west there is a lot more temptation aswell and tribulations of faith aswell compared to eastern countries.

As people here probably know, living in the west is not cheap. If you have a mortgage then you have to pay probably in the range of £10K to £15K a year. Then there are also a number of other expenses i.e. car, insurance, electricals probably on a monthly basis you will be paying in the region of £1.5 - £2K a month. If you have a child then you are even more stretched. Therefore for those who wish to pursue the path of lecturing which is not an easy job (going around the world away from home, for months on end, having to live away from family and friends, having the pressures of a demanding schedule to keep) they somehow have to live. Now, some people would say - why don't these people go and live in caves, and eat dried bread like saints and ascetics then they will learn the meaning of a hard life. But good luck to them, the try and make their living by giving inspirational and uplifting talks to the masses to try and make them closer to Allah (SWT), and it is not upto us to judge what is in their hearts, because Allah (SWT) is the judge of that, and so far most of the statements here are mere speculation which seem to have been instigated by one or two individuals in an orchestrated fashion - I don't see the other 14,999 members humming and arring, just a few genial nods of agreement yes you wrote a big passage with lots of hadith and ayah and wow you're so clever and you have opened our eyes.

Brother 'I won't mention his name' is a clever guy. I am sure if he had wanted to he could have been a high flier earning many thousands of pounds and living a very comfortable life in the west - he is not stupid, but a highly intelligent person. In fact he has more than one degree and if he was to pursue even a career in teaching then he would be doing rather well for himself. But he chose the path of being a lecturer a zakir. Alhamdullillah, he is self sufficient, he is in a way self taught, inshallah he has a pure heart but only Allah (SWT) can tell that. From the lectures that he gives youths and adults respond very well to him, and he inspires them. Therefore let us stop judging 'him whose name we won't mention'. Let us not coin imaginary phrases such as 'the commercialisation of Islam' , 'let us not run personal vendettas' in the name of betterment of the community. If you think you can do better then go and do it for free - travel to Newzealand, Australia, America, Canada, dubai paying yourself, pay for your own accomodation, give the lectures for free - I am sure people will love you even more, and you will love yourself even more as a result. And if you want free accommodation, then you can make life difficult for yourself then you can go and meditate in a cave and eat dried berries.

wsalams

Brother/Sister KSIMC; since I do not know exactly what you are saying; perhaps this is a comprehension failure on my part; I pray that Allah increase my ability in comprehension - Ameen; but I don't know who you are refering to; if it is to me; please be a little more specific, and I shall happily try to respond, but you will have to excuse my short coming and failure to comprehend that which you have written in what I can only call (based on my lack of comprehension) a most confusing and bewildering manner.

I must admit however, that I do detect a note of sarcasm in what you say; is this intentional or is it once again a short coming on my part?

Finally; I appologise if I have taken up my respected brothers and sisters time; and I pray that perhaps people will find that which I have scribed herein of some value.

All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord Sustainer of the Universes;

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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Im not addressing this to Nakhswani or anyone in particular, but I think it's sad if we turn religion into a money-making machinery.

I've seen people that follow all sorts of sects, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Bahaism, Ahmadism, etc. and these people work unpaid for hours and hours, they go and knock doors, spread pamplets, stand outside in the cold, etc.

I think mormons spend atleast two years fulltime preaching the religion, usually abroad.

Not only that, but I've seen for example Iranian Communists spend countless hours in city squares, Paltalk rooms, demonstrations, etc. and they don't believe they get any reward (neither in this world nor the hereafter), yet they are doing what their conviction tells them.

With this background, I think it's pathetic for us to demand ludicrous amounts of money if we claim to be on the 'right path', with promises of endless and eternal bliss in the hereafter, for holding a few talks now and then.

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Brother/Sister KSIMC; since I do not know exactly what you are saying; perhaps this is a comprehension failure on my part; I pray that Allah increase my ability in comprehension - Ameen; but I don't know who you are refering to; if it is to me; please be a little more specific, and I shall happily try to respond, but you will have to excuse my short coming and failure to comprehend that which you have written in what I can only call (based on my lack of comprehension) a most confusing and bewildering manner.

I must admit however, that I do detect a note of sarcasm in what you say; is this intentional or is it once again a short coming on my part?

Finally; I appologise if I have taken up my respected brothers and sisters time; and I pray that perhaps people will find that which I have scribed herein of some value.

All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord Sustainer of the Universes;

Ameen

Essentially the main point I was making is that (sarcasm and joviality aside) is that

As people here probably know, living in the west is not cheap. If you have a mortgage then you have to pay probably in the range of £10K to £15K a year. Then there are also a number of other expenses i.e. car, insurance, electricals probably on a monthly basis you will be paying in the region of £1.5 - £2K a month. If you have a child then you are even more stretched. Therefore for those who wish to pursue the path of lecturing which is not an easy job (going around the world away from home, for months on end, having to live away from family and friends, having the pressures of a demanding schedule to keep) they somehow have to live.

These people have to live, I don't know much about the average wage of these maulanas and I don't want to speculate on it but if you want to live in the west then you need a decent wage to survive, and I would think in the region of 30K is a reasonable amount to get by comfortably.

I am sure if he had wanted to he could have been a high flier earning many thousands of pounds and living a very comfortable life in the west - he is not stupid, but a highly intelligent person. In fact he has more than one degree and if he was to pursue even a career in teaching then he would be doing rather well for himself. But he chose the path of being a lecturer a zakir. Alhamdullillah, he is self sufficient, he is in a way self taught, inshallah he has a pure heart but only Allah (SWT) can tell that. From the lectures that he gives youths and adults respond very well to him, and he inspires them

If he had wanted to he could have chosen a path completely different, and with his level of intelligence he could have faired very well with that - again I won't speculate too much, but an average professional could earn in the region of 40K or more. We therefore shouldn't judge him and what are his intentions and what is in his heart - maybe he has the purest intentions. From what I have seen of him he seems a very sincere lecturer, a very good person - and he is just trying to do his bit for Islam and at the same time earning some money on the way so that he can have a decent life which any person wants, for me that is not greed, and it is not extravagance either. From what I have seen of him over the years, his lectures are improving and good luck to him. People shouldn't put him down.

With regards to general trends with jamaats paying large amount of money to pay of lecturers. Most centres have zakirs, or local zakirs who they can call on to lecture, there is not shortage of zakirs - i.e. the supply is not insufficient for the demand, and many of these centres also have resident Aalims aswell - for example Ammar Nakshwani recited recently in Dar es-Salaam - he got a very good reviews by the way, and Dar es-Salaam is a massive jamaat with numerous Zakirs, and they also have a resident Aalim. But these centres feel it in their need to call on lecturers from outside their areas, and pay for them. Now, that is upto the jamaats, they obviously see something in these people that can benefit their jamaats, that youths can benefit, their centres can benefit, the numbers who visit their centres will increase - so good luck to them if they feel it their need to pay in that case you won't do any good debating here but you need to approach your jamaats on a local level if you want to make any difference.

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(salam)

brother Ehsan;

1)please can you upload links to your swedish lectures here, as we have a few swedish reverts in our jamaat

2)your english is very good, you islamicdigest,zahranet,mubahelanet, so please can you give me one lecture in english as you write very well

sheikh hassanali;

1)where are your lectures, because mashalah your writing is very good , im bewildered why jamaats would not call you back ever again after the first time you go there, is your as oratory as good as your typing skills- that is islamic digest,mubahela,swedish links

sorry if the two repeat themselves on their websites.

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(salam)

exactly what is wrong with charing ppl???

Ppl like Ammar can sit at home and do ibadat... but if people want him to come read... why should he have 2 pay for petrol n put effort in for people dat probs slag him off after the majalis **AHEM**

People like him... they aint lawyers or doctors or whatever... being a speaker is their job... its ther career its there occupation

Simply put... u want to listen to good stufff... u pay for it... if not... go research urslf

Ya Ali Madad

Wsalaaaaamzzzz

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I was skimming some books last night and my eye fell on something that reminded me of this discussion. As a couple brothers above said, we are unfortunately living in a time (indeed, when has it not been this time?) that if an unknown person says something, it is not accepted. But if someone says it from the minbar or podium, it is praised.

Again, this is NOT directed at the individual in question but is a general principle. However, I do think it applies to the fact that we were discussing his public video and audio clips. Some people do not like any criticism of a "public figure" because he may be doing some good and bringing some youth to Islam.

However, Amir al-Mu'mineen (as) said in the Battle of Jamal:

You have tangled yourself in a misleading argument.

Truth and untruth are not judged by the personalities.

Discern the truth first and then know its followers.

Recognise the untruth and then identify its adherents.

Inshallah we can all follow that.

Wasalaam.

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Once again, a number of posts need addressing, and so insha Allah with Allah's assistance I will try to address them:

Ameen

Essentially the main point I was making is that (sarcasm and joviality aside) is that

These people have to live, I don't know much about the average wage of these maulanas and I don't want to speculate on it but if you want to live in the west then you need a decent wage to survive, and I would think in the region of 30K is a reasonable amount to get by comfortably.

If he had wanted to he could have chosen a path completely different, and with his level of intelligence he could have faired very well with that - again I won't speculate too much, but an average professional could earn in the region of 40K or more. We therefore shouldn't judge him and what are his intentions and what is in his heart - maybe he has the purest intentions. From what I have seen of him he seems a very sincere lecturer, a very good person - and he is just trying to do his bit for Islam and at the same time earning some money on the way so that he can have a decent life which any person wants, for me that is not greed, and it is not extravagance either. From what I have seen of him over the years, his lectures are improving and good luck to him. People shouldn't put him down.

With regards to general trends with jamaats paying large amount of money to pay of lecturers. Most centres have zakirs, or local zakirs who they can call on to lecture, there is not shortage of zakirs - i.e. the supply is not insufficient for the demand, and many of these centres also have resident Aalims aswell - for example Ammar Nakshwani recited recently in Dar es-Salaam - he got a very good reviews by the way, and Dar es-Salaam is a massive jamaat with numerous Zakirs, and they also have a resident Aalim. But these centres feel it in their need to call on lecturers from outside their areas, and pay for them. Now, that is upto the jamaats, they obviously see something in these people that can benefit their jamaats, that youths can benefit, their centres can benefit, the numbers who visit their centres will increase - so good luck to them if they feel it their need to pay in that case you won't do any good debating here but you need to approach your jamaats on a local level if you want to make any difference.

My respected Brother/Sister KSIMC, thank you for clarifying your point; now that you have done so; let us examine it:

I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that Islamic Teachers (be they of the Maddah (or Zakir) variety, or from amongst the Islamic Students and Ulema) should not be given a sensible salary that allows them to live in this world - be it in the Western world or elsewhere.

The issue is NOT regarding resident teachers (Resident Mawlanas, as they are commonly refered to), as these are teachers who are in full time employment, and perform tasks aside from teaching; including - but not limited to - administrative tasks. Also, generally the resident teachers are from amongst those who have had a formal Islamic Education at an Islamic Seminary, and have completed their studies to a certain (though not always the most advanced) level.

As to what their salaries should be, and what is required to live in a Western/Eastern country this is a separate discussion, and is a highly subjective one; defining ones needs for survival, and defining oppulounce are deep and detailed discussions, which I'm sure can be covered in a separate thread - indeed such discussions apply not only to the resident teachers but also to each and every one of us; as this falls into the chapter of extravagance and wastage; defining what is and what isn't such.

Moving on to the core of what you have said; you have come to a very interesting point; which I'd like to discuss in a little more depth, the actual area of your discourse that I'm talking about is:

With regards to general trends with jamaats paying large amount of money to pay of lecturers. Most centres have zakirs, or local zakirs who they can call on to lecture, there is not shortage of zakirs - i.e. the supply is not insufficient for the demand, and many of these centres also have resident Aalims aswell - for example Ammar Nakshwani recited recently in Dar es-Salaam - he got a very good reviews by the way, and Dar es-Salaam is a massive jamaat with numerous Zakirs, and they also have a resident Aalim. But these centres feel it in their need to call on lecturers from outside their areas, and pay for them. Now, that is upto the jamaats, they obviously see something in these people that can benefit their jamaats, that youths can benefit, their centres can benefit, the numbers who visit their centres will increase - so good luck to them if they feel it their need to pay in that case you won't do any good debating here but you need to approach your jamaats on a local level if you want to make any difference.

I will break down your points into component parts as that will render them easier to discuss and comprehend:

1/ You have suggested that there is no shortage of speakers.

2/ You have also suggested that since Mr Nakhshawani recieved what you term as "Good Reviews" from the Khoja Jamaat in Dar es-Salaam, Tanzania, this indicates in some manner that his lectures can immediately be classed as learned, knowlegable and accurate. I have intimate knowledge of the Khoja Community in Dar es-Salaam having lived there for a number of years and worked within the community at length; and so will cover this area as well.

3/ You suggest that it is upto the administrative or governing committee of a particular community to decide whether they can afford to spend - what can only be terms as high amounts (for Ramadhan last year (2007) Mr Nakhshawani was paid in excess of $15,000 plus accomondation and transport for lecturing during half of Ramadhan, as an example) - and these are considered high amounts by Mr Nakhshwani himself when he said:

.... The ones who attack speakers who charge high money. ...

Transcript of the Segment from Mr Nakhshawani's Speech

4/ You claim that lecturers such as Mr Nakhshawani increase attendance at a Center, and as a result they should be encouraged and it is for this reason that the Governing Class (and I use that phrase after careful consideration and will explain it in due course) of such centers will not stop inviting such people; you suggest that reformation of this practice will only take place at a local level.

Okay; now we have four distinct points; let us take them one at a time:

1/ You have suggested that there is no shortage of speakers.

I actually agree with you on this point; I do not believe there is a shortage of speakers; there is however a shortage of two types of speakers and therein lies the problem:

There is a shortage of "celebrity" speakers (who bring big crowds to the Masjed);

Therein lies the core of our problem; in Quran, Allah tells us:

ÇÏúÚõ Åöáóìٰ ÓóÈöíáö ÑóÈøößó ÈöÇáúÍößúãóÉö æóÇáúãóæúÚöÙóÉö ÇáúÍóÓóäóÉö æóÌóÇÏöáúåõã ÈöÇáøóÊöí åöíó ÃóÍúÓóäõ Åöäøó ÑóÈøóßó åõæó ÃóÚúáóãõ Èöãóä Öóáøó Úóä ÓóÈöíáöåö æóåõæó ÃóÚúáóãõ ÈöÇáúãõåúÊóÏöíäó [١٦-١٢٥]

Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.

(Quran, Surah an-Nahl, Ayah 125)

This requires us to speak at a level that the people can understand, to leverage wisdom and appropriate discourse and in a sensible and eloquant fashion. But at the core of all of this; is that we should be calling to our Lord; this means that the focus; both linguistically; metaphysically, spiritually as well as physically should be Allah; meaning that the celebrity stature of a speaker should not define whether he/she is a good speaker or not; nor should a given speakers "crowd pulling" capabilities.

Remember that honour is ONLY from Allah; while someone might seem honourable in one scenario; if there is a problem with their intention and such things they will ultimately fall with a mighty falling; this is Allah's promise, and Allah never breaks His promise.

The speaker when going on the podium or pulpit (whichever is appropriate given the level of the speaker, and it is certainly not valid for all and sundry to sit atop the mimbar (pulpit)), needs to realise the gravity of his situaiton, of where he/she is going, the responsibility that they have, and the etiquette of the pulpit/poduium needs to be maintained.

When a speaker gives a lesson, be it from the pulpit or the podium; they should realise that if even one person is led away from Islam, or becomes confused about Islam from the words they have delivered, then it is on the neck of the speaker, and surely the speaker will be answerable to Allah on that day regarding which there is no doubt; therefore his composure and demeur should be that befitting one in such a precarious position.

Yes, off course; people talk about how many people the speaker will guide towards Islam; and this is laudable without a doubt, and may Allah give the speaker more tawfeeq, however; it is not down to the positives; If we have a pot of water; one spot of najasat (ritual impurity) will render the water in that pot najis (ritually unclean), the same way; if one person from the countless that listen to a speaker is confused or misguided on account of that which was uttered by the speaker then the speaker's entire work is a waste; because while he/she might have guided tens if not hundreds, that single one they have misguided or confused and misguided via confusion will stand up on that fateful day as they are being sent to that terrible place whose fuel is men and stones, and ask Allah to send that teacher who misguided and/or confused them into misguidance to the same place as the original victim.

This is a grave and very important concept to understand; we Muslims and especially some of my younger brothers and sisters focus on the positives; yes, these are very good; and indeed this is laudable as I've said; but this is not the be all and end all.

That is not to say that all speakers should be terrified of speaking; yes in one respect they should be; since they should be sure of what they are saying and be clear in what they are saying; this is why it is not uncommon to recite the Dua of Nabi Musa(A) prior to starting a lecture:

ÞóÇáó ÑóÈøö ÇÔúÑóÍú áöí ÕóÏúÑöí [٢٠-٢٥]

He said: O my Lord! Expand my breast for me,

٢٥

æóíóÓøöÑú áöí ÃóãúÑöí [٢٠-٢٦]

And make my affair easy to me,

٢٦

æóÇÍúáõáú ÚõÞúÏóÉð ãøöä áøöÓóÇäöí [٢٠-٢٧]

And loose the knot from my tongue,

٢٧

íóÝúÞóåõæÇ Þóæúáöí [٢٠-٢٨]

(Quran, Surah TaHa, Ayaat 25-28)

This is begging Allah to remove any impediments from the clarity of a speaker's speech, that there be no confusion or misunderstanding from what the speaker says and it is one of the most important adiyaat that we can guage from Quran, especially for one who wishes to teach the people.

Secondly; in order for one to be relatively sure that they will not confuse a people; and essentially in order to mitigate the risk of accidentally misguiding a person or confusing a person which leads to an ultimate misguidance (or compounding an existing misunderstanding, resulting in an ultimate misguidance) is to have knowledge and understanding.

For example; when we goto conferences; for example; I will use software as an example; when I have attended seminars on the PHP Language (PHP Developer Conferences) or Microsoft Developer Conferences and so on; the people who are speaking and delivering sessions at these programs are always - without exception - ALWAYS - experts in the fields they will be speaking on. You will never get - what we call a "newbie" - giving a lecture at one of these seminars; unless off course there is a session about the experience of new-commers to a particular technology; and that session will always be chaired or visited by an expert in the given field.

Now this is for a secular activity; but the reasoning is the same; if you put a newbie up there; who doesn't understand; for example the issue of data-types and polymorphism within object orientated web-application programming; and you ask this person to speak about that subject; when they don't even understand the basic terminologies concerned; they will not be able to present the subject successfully; certainly they may be able to grab a few books, read up (with the help of Google no doubt), and present something; but; and this is very important; since they are not well versed in the subject; their understanding will not be as deep as for example someone who has studied this subject for a number of years.

It might be that the newbie is a very good speaker and is excellent at giving presentations; but that doesn't qualify him/her to deliver a session on a subject that they are - for want of a better phrase - sorely under informed about.

This is quite obvious, and at the same time it is crucial and vital to understand.

Now if within the secular world such standards of excellence exist; why then do we within a realm that is far more important than this securlar and temporal realm, why then do we agree to settle for less than excellence within the realm of Islam, which will ultimately decide our fate in the next world (which in reality is the more important one).

We as Muslims, owe it to Islam, to ourselves, to our future generations, to the Prophet(S), to the Aimmah(A) to Lady Zahra(A) and all of Ahl al-Bayt(A), we owe it to the severed heads raised upon lances on that barren plain of Karbala, and above all we owe it to Allah to only settle for the best when Islam is concerned and to NEVER settle for anything less, regardless of how eloquant it may sound.

Indeed, and this is now the third time I'm repeating the ayah from Surah al-Munafeqoon; Allah has warned us; that whilst somethings might sound amazingly beautiful; and it might look perfect; be weary and examine in depth:

æóÅöÐóÇ ÑóÃóíúÊóåõãú ÊõÚúÌöÈõßó ÃóÌúÓóÇãõåõãú æóÅöä íóÞõæáõæÇ ÊóÓúãóÚú áöÞóæúáöåöãú ßóÃóäøóåõãú ÎõÔõÈñ ãøõÓóäøóÏóÉñ íóÍúÓóÈõæäó ßõáøó ÕóíúÍóÉò Úóáóíúåöãú åõãõ ÇáúÚóÏõæøõ ÝóÇÍúÐóÑúåõãú ÞóÇÊóáóåõãõ Çááøóåõ Ãóäøóìٰ íõÄúÝóßõæäó

And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?

(Quran, Surah al-Munafeqoon, Ayah 4)

Let us move on, your second, third and fourth points; which I will cover as one:

2/ You have also suggested that since Mr Nakhshawani recieved what you term as "Good Reviews" from the Khoja Jamaat in Dar es-Salaam, Tanzania, this indicates in some manner that his lectures can immediately be classed as learned, knowlegable and accurate. I have intimate knowledge of the Khoja Community in Dar es-Salaam having lived there for a number of years and worked within the community at length; and so will cover this area as well.

3/ You suggest that it is upto the administrative or governing committee of a particular community to decide whether they can afford to spend - what can only be terms as high amounts (for Ramadhan last year (2007) Mr Nakhshawani was paid in excess of $15,000 plus accomondation and transport for lecturing during half of Ramadhan, as an example) - and these are considered high amounts by Mr Nakhshwani himself when he said:

.... The ones who attack speakers who charge high money. ...

Transcript of the Segment from Mr Nakhshawani's Speech

4/ You claim that lecturers such as Mr Nakhshawani increase attendance at a Center, and as a result they should be encouraged and it is for this reason that the Governing Class (and I use that phrase after careful consideration and will explain it in due course) of such centers will not stop inviting such people; you suggest that reformation of this practice will only take place at a local level.

Okay, firstly let us understand one very important concept; there is no-one here who is saying that Mr Nakhshawani is not an eloquant speaker, however, I will say that while he is endowed with what is known as "the gift of the gab", that doesn't automatically make him knowledgable or qualified in anyway to speak; also the fact that he is an Arab and indeed a Sayyed; this also doesn't make him any better or any worse than any other person - in fact I would argue that since he is an Arab, and that he speaks Arabic in a colloquial manner (having been born in Kuwait from Iraqi stock, his Arabic would be of a dialect that is well known as one of the furthest from Quranic Arabic or Classical Arabic - the scholars of Arabic have said this time and time again; and there is lexical proof of the divergance and intermingling of Farsi and Kurdi phrases/dialects as well as dialects from far and wide (on account of the gulf being a center of trade and commerce within the Middle East historically speaking)). But our discusion is not on the purity of a persons dialect in Arabic; that is for another day and another time insha Allah.

Okay; let us see what you have said; Mr Nakhshawani recieved "good reviews" from the Khoja Jamaat of Dar es-Salaam. What exactly does that mean? I'm a little confused; and I will explain why.

In 2004, while I was still in Dar es-Salaam, during the ten days of Muharram, there was a speaker who came to deliver lectures in Urdu; there was also an English speaker but his name escapes me at this time - suffice it to say that he knew he wasn't an Alem, and didn't act or pretend to be one; nor was he of celebrity stature, but anyway I digress; the Urdu speaker had an entourage with him - whether it was a locally whipped up junta or one he had imported with him I don't know, but suffice it to say there was an entourage with him of young men with high levels of testosterone in their bloodstreams, high spirited and with a relatively low understanding of Islamic Ethics.

Anyway; on the night of the 9th of Muharram it is customary in Dar es-Salaam to have a procession from one of the smaller Mahfils - I believe it was from Mahfil Askari to the Main Hussainiyyah. The procession passes a number of localities with majority Hindu populations, and the Hindus in their own way hold Aba Abdillah al-Husayn(A) in high esteem and so they come out to see the procession.

Right; during the procession; there is the recitation of nohe and short speeches in various languages including Swahili (which is the local language) and Urdu, and the procession ends with a final speech outside the Husainiyyeh.

In this particular procession, the Teacher who had been brought over from India (the one with the entourage as I explained earlier) to deliver the Urdu lectures to the people, was asked to give a speech when the procession stopped outside the Hindu locality.

During this speech; he said something which I found completely abhorant, not only because it was completely incorrect and based on fabrications (proven to be based on fabrications I might add), but also because it cheapened and made weak and pitiful the position of our Master, Aba Abdillah al-Husayn(A). This speaker - who was also allegedly a Sayyed I might add - said to the Hindu people:

"The people of India, the Hindu people are a good people. How do I know this? Because prior to the massacre of Karbala, when Imam Husayn(A) knew his life was in danger, a companion of his suggested that he should escape to India. Imam Husayn(A) on hearing this suggestion of his companion, paused a moment and nodded, saying - yes, India is a good place; the people there have a good religion, they are a good people"

Subhan Allah; I remember hearing this with my own ears; I asked a couple of people who were with me to confirm if I had heard correctly and they were equally as shocked as I was. I resolved to ask this "Teacher" regarding what he had said after the Majles had completed that same night.

After the Majles that night; I approached the Indian Sayyed and asked him if he could spare a couple of minutes as I wished to ask him about something. Initially he was hesitent, but once his entourage arrived, he agreed and I asked him regarding that which he had said. He looked at me square in the eyes and said this is based on the ahadeeth in our books. I told him that it was well known and indeed well documented that the ahadeeth this is based on are not considered even remotely valid, as both their asnaad as well as their content goes fundamentally against Quran. I asked him how he could allege that Aba Abdillah(A) had suggested that Hinduism - which is essentially polytheism (a religion of mushrikeen who give forms to God and lower His ultimate perfection) - was "a good religion"?!!

He said to me that I didn't understand; that it was required when living in India; I advised him that this was NOT India; there was no danger to His life; that all he was required to say was the Truth and not to lie so blatently - I asked him what will the Hindu's over here think? They will think that Islam is a fraud, because the Imam of the Muslims, has said that Hinduism is valid; therefore; being a Hindu is valid. I asked him whether he realised the ramifications of his words; I told him even in India while there may be a requirement to practice Taqiyyah; Taqiyyah does NOT justify putting lies or propogating lies and alleging that they were spoken by the Ahl al-Bayt(A), I advised him that he should appologise from the mimbar about this.

All this time; I maintained my respect and decorum; and I advised him politely. When it was clear he wasn't ready to listen or understand; I told him that the hujjah is now complete on him, and he has no excuse left in regard to this when confronted regarding it by Allah.

What happened after, and what his entourage did and said is not important; suffice it to say that he didn't recant his words; and was paid is fee by the Dar es-Salaam Khoja Jamaat, was given much praise and felicitiation, and has been booked for events in the future in advance.

Therefore; it could be argued - and indeed this was the case; that Dar es-Salaam Jamaat gave a "Good Review" to that speaker as well. Subhan Allah. Not one member of the Dar es-Salaam Tabligh Comittee or Jamaat Committe (or whatever they are called) was ready to ask this speaker about what he said, to ask him to explain himself. All of them were too timid and lacked what we call a backbone. This is very common within ALL Khoja communities - and I say this NOT as an outsider; but as a Khoja myself. I know my people very well; and I know how weak and timid they are when asked to confront the falsehoods between them; I also know how swift they are at throwing money at a problem to make it go away; I know how smart they are hiding things under the proverbial carpet.

The monies that Dar es-Salaam Jamaat has squandered, that Africa Federation has squandered run into the millions, so really what does a few tens of thousand to a "speaker" matter. It matters deeply when that money has been given in terms of charitable donations (sadaqah) and/or khums, it matters greatly when there are people - Khoja shia people - who don't have enough money to have food, because the few powerful people - including those who "donated" the money that was used to pay Mr Nakhshwani in Dar es-Salaam - choose to spend money in showing the world how great they are but people within their communities with life threatening illnesses have to beg around and are asked to commit haram in order to obtain comparitively meagre amounts for medical treatment.

Wallah, and Allah is my witness; the governing class - and that is exactly what they are - not just in Dar es-Salaam but elsewhere also - are not fit for their position; are not fit to be custodians of the rights of the believers; when those in power are the worst of all people.

There are things I could write,things that I have seen first hand within the Khoja Governing Classes, within Dar es-Salaam and also elsewhere; thingsthat break my heart; and that I am certain tear the heart of Imam al-Hujjah(AJ) apart; that make the believers and lovers of Aba Abdillah(A) cry oceans of tears that turn to blood when the tears are exhaused, that force us to lament and cry, to writhe in pain as we scream out in the early hours of Friday morning:

Where is the impenetrable defence who broke the back of the oppressive tyrants?

Where is the "awaited saviour" who will set the have-nots and the depressed on their feet?

Where is the "The Hope" who will put and end to tyranny and oppression?

Where is the "preserved guaranty" who shall give new life to rule of law and refined way of life?

Where is the "Chosen in preference good" who shall raise the spirits of the people and give currency to justice and fairplay?

Where is the "hope-giving confidante" who shall make full use of the "Book" and define the sphere of action? Where is he who shall blot out dogma in the matter of religion and his (Muhammad's) children?

Where is he who shall break up meddlesome trouble and tampering?

Where is he who shall pull down the foundations of confusion (polytheists) and hypocrisy?

Where is he who shall stamp out corruption, vice, reaction and injustice?

Where is he who shall trim the outgrowth of despair, longing and hardships?

Where is he who shall erase the traces of unfairness and self- seeking conceit?

Where is he who shall untie the twisted knots of falsehood and disruption?

Where is he who shall separate senselessness and insolence from the people?

Where is he who shall tear up by the roots obstinacy, corruption and apostasy? Where is he who shall love dearly the favourites of Allah and take pains to tame and train the transgressors?

Where is he who shall make people familiar with "words of wisdom"?

Where is the ultimate (Divine) source of plenty and prosperity?

Where is the "Divine aspect" the God-fearing may look up to?

Where is the link that connects the cosmic complex?

Where is the authority who shall communicate and make known the true point of view?

Where is the author of the conception of peace, fairplay and welfare?

Where is the defender of the traditions of the Prophets and their children?

Where is the investigator of the blood of the Martyrs of Karbala?

Where is he who shall get the upper hand over the perpetrators of crime and greed?

Where is he who shall not rest until he answers the cries of help when called upon?

Where is the foremost leader of the people the just, the truthful and the wise?

Where is the son of the chosen Prophet? The son of Ali Al-Murtaza!

The son of Khadejah, the resplendent! The son of Fatimah, the great!

(Dua an-Nudbah)

Yes, I do see a major issue with the governing classes of a community paying a huge amount of cash to a given speaker - competant or otherwise - especially when they have a responsibility to the poor and destitute of a community; especially when on the day of Ashura when they give food the people; and the poor gather outside that they might recieve some food; they are beaten - yes BEATEN - and harrassed, insulted and cast out; Subhan Allah; we sit and eat food that we claim is fateha for Aba Abdillah(A) but then betray the very lessons that Ahl al-Bayt(A) gave us; Subhan Allah; what hypocrisy??

Have we forgotten the ayaat of Surat ad-Dahr - also known as Surat al-Insaan:

æóíõØúÚöãõæäó ÇáØøóÚóÇãó Úóáóìٰ ÍõÈøöåö ãöÓúßöíäðÇ æóíóÊöíãðÇ æóÃóÓöíÑðÇ [٧٦-٨]

And they give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive:

٨

ÅöäøóãóÇ äõØúÚöãõßõãú áöæóÌúåö Çááøóåö áóÇ äõÑöíÏõ ãöäßõãú ÌóÒóÇÁð æóáóÇ ÔõßõæÑðÇ [٧٦-٩]

We only feed you for Allah's sake; we desire from you neither reward nor thanks:

٩

ÅöäøóÇ äóÎóÇÝõ ãöä ÑøóÈøöäóÇ íóæúãðÇ ÚóÈõæÓðÇ ÞóãúØóÑöíÑðÇ [٧٦-١٠]

Surely we fear from our Lord a stern, distressful day.

١٠

ÝóæóÞóÇåõãõ Çááøóåõ ÔóÑøó Ðٰáößó Çáúíóæúãö æóáóÞøóÇåõãú äóÖúÑóÉð æóÓõÑõæÑðÇ [٧٦-١١]

Therefore Allah win guard them from the evil of that day and cause them to meet with ease and happiness;

١١

æóÌóÒóÇåõã ÈöãóÇ ÕóÈóÑõæÇ ÌóäøóÉð æóÍóÑöíÑðÇ [٧٦-١٢]

And reward them, because they were patient, with garden and silk,

(Quran, Surah al-Insaan / Surah ad-Dahr, Ayaat 8-12)

The same speakers at times will quote this ayaat; will narrate the events surround it's revelation and who and what it is in regard to; but will fail to understand the core of the message; and will go against that message in their very actions and words; Subhan Allah.

There is a famous saying, indeed it is a hadeeth; I forget the Ma'sum(A) that it is narrated by; but it is a well known hadeeth:

There are those who recite Quran; but Quran is cursing them

This hadeeth requires deep reflection and thought; because it could be us; that we recite Quran; but those very words are words that we do not act on but rather act in a contradictory fashion to; as a result of which the Quran is cursing us; Subhan Allah!

The speakers should realise their responsibilities; and we should realise ours; we should not judge someone based on their "popularity"; if that was the case; why do we not give credence to ahadeeth quotes by Abu Huraira or Aisha and others? They were the most popular of the narrators of ahadeeth; they narrated more than most; why are we not in sync with the beliefs of our brethren of the Sunnah; they are the majority; the majority rejected Imam Ali(A)'s claim for the successorship of the Prophet(S); and as a result it was taken by those who were not worthy of such a position.

Why do we constantly complain about the rights of Imam Ali(A) having been taken by those who were unworthy; when we ourselves are not better and do exactly that which was done to Imam Ali(A) to others without realising? Subhan Allah. Do we not consider that our criteria should not be popularity; but Truth; we as Shia of Haider al-Karrar(A), have NEVER gone by "popularity" or "majority opinion"; we are a people who stick to the truth; even if only one of us remain. If we went by the Majority; then in Karbala; we should be with Umar ibn Sa'ad; he too was one who prayed ardently, it is narrated that he never missed Salaat al-Layl, that he had memorized the entire Quran; yet he was definately from those who is cursed by Quran.

We need to ensure we don't fall into that same position through our lack of contemplation and reflection, through our lack of reliance on Allah.

I appologise for perhaps being a touch more verbose in this reponse, but this is such an important point; I was compelled to explain it as best as possible, insha Allah my respected brethren will excuse my taking up of their time.

I will soon be finishing, and insha Allah your trouble in reading this will soon be alleviated.

(salam)

brother Ehsan;

1)please can you upload links to your swedish lectures here, as we have a few swedish reverts in our jamaat

2)your english is very good, you islamicdigest,zahranet,mubahelanet, so please can you give me one lecture in english as you write very well

sheikh hassanali;

1)where are your lectures, because mashalah your writing is very good , im bewildered why jamaats would not call you back ever again after the first time you go there, is your as oratory as good as your typing skills- that is islamic digest,mubahela,swedish links

sorry if the two repeat themselves on their websites.

My respected Brother Janali; thank you for your kind words; however, be sure that I am nothing; I am but a miserable and wretched sinner, begging for Allah's acceptance, and I pray that honourable people such as my respected brethren on this forum will pray that Allah accepts me. Truely without His acceptance nothing has any value or purpose.

As for my lectures; they are available online; I have not given that many - and not all that I have given have been electronically recorded; those that have been can be found here. I am but a small student of Islam, and I pray that Allah increase my understanding and comprehension, and through that increase my awareness of Him and His Truth; and alongside that join my actions and my words into a unified bonded state; that my sheer existance becomes a constant service of My Master.

(salam)

exactly what is wrong with charing ppl???

Ppl like Ammar can sit at home and do ibadat... but if people want him to come read... why should he have 2 pay for petrol n put effort in for people dat probs slag him off after the majalis **AHEM**

People like him... they aint lawyers or doctors or whatever... being a speaker is their job... its ther career its there occupation

Simply put... u want to listen to good stufff... u pay for it... if not... go research urslf

Ya Ali Madad

Wsalaaaaamzzzz

Respected Brother/Sister Tauqeer786x. You have failed to apprecaite the core of the discussion my dear brother/sister. No-one is suggesting that if a speaker has to travel to a given place; perhaps stay there for a few days that his expenses should not be met. Definately and without any doubt it is the right of the teacher to have his expenses met - meaning that his transportation should be provided or arranged or expensed (naturally it should be first class or business class air fare - but economy (coach) class, something simple and modest) if he/she uses his own means; and that accomodation should be provided; be it at someones home if appropriate; at the masjed, in a hotel/motel (though not extravagant in a fancy suite; something modest and simple), his food should be provided during his/her time there.

The time that the speaker spends in that place should be put to maximum use; he/she should be taken to give extra lessons to those interested and such things; they should be given information on the situation of the people; if there are sick and unwell people in the community, arrangements should be made for the speaker to visit such people; if there are elderly people; they should be visited also and so on an so forth. Naturally the speaker should be given some time to prepare and perform last minute checks on their sessions, but in reality a speaker - a true righteous speaker - should be prepared prior to embarking on a tabligh session. This is important; but outside the scope of this discussion.

To explain this in laymans terms; if we have a consultant, an adviser shall we say invited to our company; we will make maximum use of that person; and not let that person have a moment of rest; we will - as they say get our money's worth out of him - and the Khoja's I can safely say are masters at this behaviour. If it's good enough for our business practices; why do we not apply the same level of excellence in our Islamic activities?

Once again, I feel I have perhaps taken up a lot of my respected brothers and sisters time - but this is an important point and requires detailed understanding, hence my verbosity.

All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord Sustainer of the Universes;

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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exactly what is wrong with charing ppl???

Ppl like Ammar can sit at home and do ibadat... but if people want him to come read... why should he have 2 pay for petrol n put effort in for people dat probs slag him off after the majalis **AHEM**

As a side note, no one is suggesting that he or any other pay for their own petrol or transportation. It is reasonable to expect that if you are invited somewhere to speak, your hosts will pay for your transportation and lodging.

However, back to the subject, charging itself does not concern me. From an individual perspective, he is a free man (particularly since he did not take his education at the hawzah which is run by the khums money of the people). He has the right to speak or not to speak, to speak wherever he wants, and to charge whatever he wants too.

Of course, Islam teaches that we are meant to share what we have with our Muslim brothers and sisters. Some of us have money; some of us have kindness; and some of us have talent. If we have something we can offer in the service of God, we are expected to offer it, and it's not right to sit at home.

Nonetheless, that is an issue of social responsibility; we are all free to choose whether or not we want to fulfill our social responsibilities.

At any rate, the issue of charging is not the main issue to me. However, glorifying the commercialization from the minbar of Aba Abdillah (as) is deeply concerning to me. I had never heard that audio clip of his before (the first one Brother Ehsan listed).

I will not condemn him for one "off" statement. When you are a public speaker, you are under a lot of pressure. Everyone makes an occasional "slip of the tongue". Nonetheless, what he says in that clip is very inappropriate. Listen to me and tell me you do not disagree.

It is one thing to say, "Yes, some speakers do not set fixed rates for their lectures, but I charge, and this is my fee, and I require a contract." I would respect that integrity. However, he is using his position to justify collecting large fees, to take hadith out of context to justify collecting large fees, AND insult other people who do not do the same - in order to justify what he is doing!!!

cannot imagine why someone would do that from the minbar. The minbar is a sacred responsibility. The ahadith we have from ahl al-bayt are a sacred trust. Using those things to glorify commercialism is very, very, wrong. And do not let this be ghibah - I would appreciate it if someone who knows him would tell him this!

Beyond that, there are broader issues (and not just relating to this brother). One of the main, basic principles of Islam is abstaining from the dunya. We may take what we need from this world, and we are encouraged to do business, but we are meant to use whatever excess wealth we obtain to serve the disadvantaged, not to invest in luxury items when a regular item would suffice. Look at how Bibi Fatimah (saa) lived - her father would not even let her put up a curtain in her home or wear a necklace!

Cars, clothing, big houses -- all of that is naturally appealing. It is appealing to our nafs - and, beyond that, Shaytan makes it alluring too. We are meant to combat that and to control our desires for material things, not let those desires control ourselves.

I feel that the generation of youth being raised today is being hit particularly hard by those desires (especially those raised in certain parts of the West). From every direction, they are being attacked by commercialism and materialism. I fear that many of them have not internalized the basic Islamic value of abstaining from the excesses of this world, and that true honor comes not from wealth but from taqwa.

In such an environment, it is very dangerous to say things that will encourage the youth to obey their materialistic desires. Yes, they will enjoy it. Yes, they will want to hear more of it. But it is not what they need to hear. Instead, they need to hear more about these basic principles of Islam - the principles that they do not often see around them. Moderation, humility, charity, equality, piety - these are the essence of Islam.

It's not haraam to buy a nice car or make a lot of money and keep it for yourself (after khums and zakat) - but it is not what being a true Muslim and servant of God and member of the ummah is about, and this is the message that I feel is being endangered.

Inshallah I hope (if you are still reading) that my intent is clear.

Finally, I have one other thought. I started it earlier, but let me finish it. Honestly, those of us who care about the community and spend time serving the community in one way or another want to support anyone who is doing the same. We really do not develop "vendettas" or get jealous of each other. We know we are a minority that is at risk of losing the next generation. We support anyone who can help us in the cause of Allah.

And so, it takes a lot to turn us against people. We will overlook and not say things about people if we feel they are serving Islam because we realize the stakes are so high.

But, nonetheless, when someone does something wrong, we need to say it. We don't need to condemn or expel that person, but we need to advice him or her. If they do not accept that advice, then we need to speak against it. Because a person who does not live according to the ideals of Islam but represents Islam is also a danger to the mission and the message.

I am not against this brother we are discussing. I find him to be a fine lecturer. He works hard. Honestly, in my opinion, he's welcome to whatever salary he likes. However, just because he is a good lecturer does not mean we should not tell things as they are or honestly address all aspects of what he is doing instead of "sugar coating" it because we are afraid for the youth.

Because, ultimately, as a wise friend of mine said once - many people advertise certain speakers because they think they can guide the youth and because they say they have brought the youth from haraam. But, where were the parents in all of this? Why is it they think they can get away with not teaching their children Islam for 18 years and then bringing them to a lecture and expecting the lecturer to do the job?

This perhaps is our problem.

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(salam)

I'm glad to see this topic brought up. I have had these conversations with my husband who is an organizer for our small jamaat. We had a similar incident where speakers denied attending the centre for a recitation due to the fact that they were not paid enough. We are literally broke. We are a community of mostly converts that have almost nothing. (And, I posted this before and remember people saying why is that why is that - why doesn't really matter!! and maybe why is because there is so much class segregation and racial prejudice that everyone got together ?? but that's another topic). We don't have 6,000 plus attendees like a large Khoja mosque here says they have.

There are times we had asked some alims. One of them said no because he needed this this and that (of course that was after he said yes and we told him we could only provide for gas and related things maybe 100$-150$ for the day- for him I must make excuses because perhaps there is stuff i don't know but still he agreed and sited costs as his excuse for not being able to continue). He said consider what other people offer him when he goes to speak for them. I was so disappointed by this and hurt by this not because of my own but because of my responsibility to the community. I probably would have been less hurt by this if he hadn't FIRST agreed to it. Allahu alim.

Still, we had an Ayahtullah leading a course on PHIL for free, a professor coming for lecture for free, and a couple other well known local alims coming for free. According to the words of the speaker their is a disease in them? How can someone make such sweeping generalizations on ulemah like that? I completely disagree. Many people who aren't speakers also work hard, long hours towards the community and they don't get paid...not even a cent! They diligently work towards organizational structure, fundraising, planning, etc. A LOT of work goes into community development. Where is their pay?

In this particular clip, the speaker says people's alloy wheels cost more then a speaker makes in Muharram. I don't know anyone who makes more then 15,000$ a month let alone 10,000$ a month. Unless he's talking about those new cars in India that cost 2,000$, that is absurd! Knowledge is a gift and obligation, if you have it you must share it.

That said, I'm not against paying speakers. In fact, I think speakers and resident alims should be paid at least the average amount of what is earned in their area. For Toronto, for example I'd say a speaker who lives here and visits somewhere else should get at least 50,000 -70,000 a year salary ADJUSTED to the time he spent elsewhere. (Taxes deducted of course otherwise cut that figure in half.) If someone is gone for 10 days he should be paid.

And as a side not, if mosques have enough money to pay ludicrous amounts for speakers they should be looking for ways to make their programs and their memberships more accessible to lower-income families. They do exist and they are just as much Muslims and in need of the community's resources - without being asked WHY they're poor or being humiliated into begging.

Out of curiousity what is the going rate for someone who recites for 10 days in the Month of Muharram??

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and what is the conclusion for this topic ? what is the solution for this issue ? every year will be engage in these talks but not doing any thing practically ! quoting huge quranic verses and hadeeth agree/disagreeing , lets move on what is the next step !

^ without knowing what these claimed 'ludicrous amounts' are, I personally think that mosques, Islamic centres etc need to rethink their own budgeting and put a ceiling on the amount paid to speakers. I think thats fair enough and if this is done across the board it will make the whole payment system fairer and not open to slander.

Obviously there will be some centres that will not be able to meet the average amount, even where its capped given by other centres but atleast the devide will be smaller between the better paying centres and the centres with lesser finances.

*If* by capping the fees this lessens the motivation for certain speakers to attend then as a society we have to consider ourselves better off without their wisdom. I do beleive the fees shouldn't be miserly but certainly not ludicrous.

What I'm finding unfortunate about this whole situation is the amount of judgment, slander, shunning that has taken place by both 'sides' of the debate. Its unfortunate that the entire group of people calling for little or no fees for speakers have been labelled as hypocrites ( I refer to the A.N clip posted) and unfortunate that the entire group of speakers who ask for fees and who may not have been even approached about their motives by anyone who boldly accuses them as greedy for material reward ( I refer to the opening post).

My other point is that unless someone representing both sides of this debate, i.e people that are against charging or against charging high amounts atleast ( who are present in this debate) AND people ACTUALLY charging high amounts(not just sticking up for those that do) are both present to debate the issue, then the debate is unfairly biased. How can we make judgement on someone asking for high fees without speaking to them directly first?

Overall there is an undoubted danger in attaching an almost celebrity status to anyone who is to be a role model for the youth, but that would be the mistake of the society we live in. We need to change our own thinking about what money can and cannot buy and how to best spend the money gathered in the treasury of our mosques.

ws

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

In the opinion of this small student; the following shuold be given to a speaker - be it an Alem, an Islamic Student (Talabeh), or just a Maddah; and the following conditions should be applied also:

1/ Expenses at an economy level; meaning if a speaker is to be invited from far and wide; his passage (at an economy, coach or budget level) should be covered, he should be provided with food and board (again at economy or budget level) - food and board should ideally be with a family from within the community if possible; if that is not possible; then within a room at the Islamic Center; if that is not possible then a Bed and Breakfast type establishment nearby; there is no need to let a speaker wallow in the lap of luxury; he doesn't need a jacuzzi, a sauna, room service, and other such decadent things, he needs a place to lay his head, a place to pray, and a place to read and reflect on the content of his lessons. If a person is a sincere follower of Imam Ali(A): then he will know and understand these things; if he isn't - why is he being invited to teach our men, women and children in the first place?

2/ He should not be promised anything further; and if there are wealthy members of the community who are inspired to give him/her a gift once they have delivered their lessons so be it; but that should not be agreed in any manner nor any commitment given. The only "fee" that a speaker should be permitted to charge (beyond expenses) is that of salawaat on Muhammad and Aal-i-Muhammad(S).

That doesn't mean that a wealthy community takes advantage of a given situation, nor does it mean that a speaker takes advantage of a poorer community; there needs to be balance, and in not being promised a fee; nor being led to expect one; the speaker is safe in the knowledge that his work is for Allah, as opposed to for his bank manager.

If the speaker is unable to abide by these conditions and needs to earn money; then that is also fine; but he should then decline to deliver any sessions; and continue about his work in his home land; and only when he/she is able to fulfil these conditions should they return to what is now known as the "lecture circuit".

3/ The speaker should be honoured depending on his level of learning. If a speaker is an Alem Rabbani or a Tullab Dini, then and ONLY then, should he be permitted to climb aloft the Mimbar of the Prophet(S), if the speaker is a Maddah or a Zakir; who has never studied Islam in a formal manner; then he should not even be offered the mimbar; but be provided with a podium and be expected to lecture from there. This will prevent any internal Shaytaan from modifying his intentention and potentially destroying him.

4/ Speakers should not be invited on the basis of their popularity; they should be invited based on their ability to teach the community; they should be made aware of problems within the community and be in constant liaison with the resident Ulema and resident believers of a given communtiy have have an understanding of the situaton of the people they are to visit and give lessons to. This is important and part of the required preparatory work that any valid and decent lecturer will perform prior to teaching a given community.

5/ If a speaker refuses to come to a center because that center is "unable to pay his fee or will pay him too little"; this should be made known to the people; and on the proviso that the community in question had offered expenses (as explained in section 1/ above), the speaker should be declared as one who follows the line of the celebrities and poets of the days of Jahiliyyah; who went after financial gain and had no concept of Allah and Akherah. Such a speaker should be exposed and if he/she fails to reform then they should be blacklisted, and no longer invited; since clearly there is a flaw in their intention. If they were sincerely working for Allah; they would surely know that Allah will not leave them without.

I know a young speaker; who doesn't charge; he only sometimes asks for expenses; but generally he does what he does purely for the sake of Allah, and is one of the most mukhlis people I have had the honour of comming into contact with. This person was invited to give a lecture during the days of Muharram to a community in Northern England. AFter much persuation he went - again for no fee as explained - he delivered his lecture; even though he was ill; at the end of the lecture as he left to go home; he was given a large gift by a rich member of that community. Nothing had been agreed in advance; this was a genuine gift and was unexpected. This is how Allah looks after those who are sincere and true to him; but sadly there are many speakers who's level of eiman is so pathetic and low; that they do not realise that when a speaker genuinely gives for the sake of Allah; be sure that Allah WILL look after that person; and will reward him/her in this world and in the next.

This is the promise of Allah; yet sadly - as Allah says many times in Quran - the majority of the people don't think, don't understand, don't realise and indeed don't believe.

A lecturer should be a source of inspiration to a people; not a burden on their finances that they have to pass around a pot begging for donations to pay his/her ridiculous fees!! He should encourage the people to do Islamic Works; be people who are loved by all around them, live the examples of Ahl al-Bayt(A) and work as they did for the sake of Allah; if a speaker is talking about working for the sake of Allah; but he/he himself does things for the sake of worldly gain; then isn't that somewhat hypocritical? Do we really want those people who act like hypocrites teach us something? Perhaps we've forgotten that we are those who's leaders are Haider al-Karrar(A), who's leaders are al-Mujtaba(A), who's leaders are Sayyed ash-Shuhada(A), who's leaders are the Aimmah al-Athaar(A).

Why then do we want teachers who based on their behaviour and ettiquette belong in the court of Muaiwyyah manufacturing ahadeeth and creating marketing campaigns to sell onions and the like, rather than teaching the sublime lessons of love and fighting injustice and oppression both external and internal for the sake of Allah; while betraying that self same lesson!! Subhan Allah.

We want teachers who will inspire us to become closer to Allah; we need such teachers, who instill in us a deep rooted love for Aba Saleh al-Mahdi(AJ), who teach us of our responsibilities; who do not look at who has invited; but take each invite as an honour and gift from Allah, and who are thankful to Allah for the honour of being given a chance to teach and who realise the gravity and responsibility of the task they have been honoured with performing.

If our communities realised this; imagine how many illnesses we could cure, how many destitute we could assist how many children who don't have the chance to be educated could we educate, how many young men and women who can't marry for lack of financial stability we could help, how many widows and destitutes could be helped and given a chance, Allahu Akbar; why why is it better to pay some peope huge amounts; when that same money could go to assist the most unfortunate and needy from a community? With who's authority do the "elders" of the community pay such vast sums to commercial speakers; while their own people lie in dire need; in some cases dying from a lack of medical treatment that would have been accomplished had money not been squander in paying ludicras fees to "speakers".

May Allah hasten the return of our Master, al-Hujjat ibn al-Hasan(May our souls be his ransom), let us raise our hands in dua, that insha Allah, Allah hears our pleas and returns our Master(AJ) to us:

O Allah, we ardently desire that in [his] kind, just, and fair era,

Thou should reactivate Islam and stimulate its followers,

and humble and humiliate the imposters and their double-dealing,

and include us among those who invite people unto Thy obedience,

and lead them to Thy approved path,

and give us the good of this world and the world to come.

O Allah, let us bear out and hold up

that which Thou maketh known to us as the truth,

and let us be fully aware of that which we fall short of doing.

O Allah, through him, set in order our disorder;

gather and unite our flock;

stitch together our sundered separation;

turn our want and poverty into sufficiency;

lift us up from our degradation;

free us from our misery;

pull us out from our debts;

help us to get out from the ditch of cares and sorrows;

fill the gap created by confusion among us;

let our difficulties be easy to deal with;

refine our substance and style;

untie our ropes and straps;

let our efforts succeed well and secure success;

make us fulfill our promises;

give answers to our prayers;

listen to our requests;

cause us to obtain the good of this world and the hereafter;

give us much and more than our expectations,

O the best of givers and bestowers;

and cleanse our hearts,

unburden our emotions from hate and anger,

and, in the event of dispute in the matter of truth,

show us the right path.

Verily, Thou guides whoever Thou will to the right path.

Let us, through him, get the better of Thy enemies and our opponents,

O True God.

Be it so.

O Allah, we feel uneasy about and are disturbed by

the departure of our Prophet,

Thy blessings be on him and on his family,

the absence of our guardian-friend,

too many enemies,

our numerical scarcity,

widespread disorder,

and the vicissitudes of time.

So send blessings on Muhammad and on his family,

and help us to overcome this state of affairs at once.

Disperse the ominous clouds hanging over our heads;

lend a helping hand to achieve success;

bring in the rule of justice and fair play;

make us bright, free from grief;

and take care of us.

Through Thy mercy, O most Merciful.

(Dua al-Iftitah)

All praise belongs to Allah the Lord Sustainer of the Universes,

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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I've read a lot of nice "theory" on this thread. Fact is, Naskhawani's lectures are all over you tube, and he delivers the goods. He is young and is not a hawza student, but unless and until the hawza students step up to the plate and make themselves useful rather than just sitting in their basements berating the fall of civilisation, then don't expect us to care for their opinion.

Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. Make the replies to Naik, make the replies to Manji and Hirsi Ali, make the replies to the verses about beating women and about killing the unbelievers that are posted all over the internet as examples of the barbarity of Islam, put yourselves out there. Nakshawani has done it, so if you aren't going to, don't complain. If you find yourseves being sidelined, you only have yourselves to blame.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The problem that we have on hand is part of something much bigger. The issue goes beyond fees, charging etc ... , as can be seen from the points brought up by our respected brothers and sisters within this discussion.

The bigger problem is what you may call the global incompetence of the self-acclaimed followers of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Ahlul-Bayt (as) (myself included, of course).

It wouldn't be possible to list the several deficiencies in one post, and nor do I wish to, but this is something we absolutely have to rectify.

Before anything else, we have to remember how fortunate we are to have recognized the truth through the best sources of guidance, the two weighty things. This is a gift from our Lord, Allah (swt), and it comes with a significant amount of responsibility.

We have to take this seriously and start shouldering our duties properly. Half-Shiaism is worthless, it would be better to choose between all or nothing, so that we're either following the path as it ought to be followed, or not following it without bringing disgrace upon it. Following the Ahlul Bayt should be a chosen identity, rather than some form of part-time heritage or social trend.

One of the brothers very correctly pointed out that the dedication that is seen in other movements, religious and non-religious, puts us to shame. The question is simple: do we actually have less faith in the truth than others do in falsehood?

I would like to share a narration that is quoted in one of the books recommended by our brother in this thread, Greater Sins, by the martyr Ayatullah Dastaaghaib Shirazi:

Isa bin Abdullah Qummi entered in the presence of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.). The Imam said,

“That person is not from us nor do we hold him in esteem, the one who, if he lives in a town of a population of hundred thousand and there is even one non-Shia who is more pious than him.”

(al-Kāfi).

-Chapter 1, Greater Sins

We've made a mistake by lowering our standards and satisfying ourselves with spiritual mediocrity (while demanding the best of the material world), as well as a lack of global dedication.

While a small proportion of brothers and sisters put a lot of effort and sincerity into spreading the message, the large majority of us seem to be have satisfied ourselves with being occasional guests who should be served by the dedicated minority in the name of religion.

This is the global problem.

To get back to the specific issue in this thread, the small details are not going to matter as long as there is an overall passive approach to religion. Once each and every one of us assumes their role as a partisan of the 12th Imam (as) then these problems will fade away, because they are ultimately due to our own inadequacy.

The issue of speakers choosing well-paying venues over "smaller" centres shouldn't have ever been an issue in the Shia school of thought. The concept of "well-paid" as opposed to "lowly-paid" simply doesn't exist. All sustenance is from Allah (swt), out of which 80% is a gift for us and 20% is returned in His cause. Our only use for money is basic survival, and ideally the rest would be going towards productive causes.

If every "believer" returned the amount that they owe to Allah (swt), also knows as the Khums and the Zakat, then we wouldn't have any "rich" centres and "poor" centres, and the speakers would be provided for by a fund that is specifically designated for the purpose.

As long as we don't go by the rules and ethics the system isn't going to work, and this goes for both the speakers and the masses. We might find ourselves a few convenient short-term solutions, but there's only one long-term solution and it requires an effort from every one of us.

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I've read a lot of nice "theory" on this thread. Fact is, Naskhawani's lectures are all over you tube, and he delivers the goods. He is young and is not a hawza student, but unless and until the hawza students step up to the plate and make themselves useful rather than just sitting in their basements berating the fall of civilisation, then don't expect us to care for their opinion.

There are many Hawza students who have stepped upto the plate and also delivered the goods. Have you heard of Sheikh Saleem Bhimji who now resides in Canada? The amount of work he has done after leaving the Hawza is immense; translations, lectures, group discussions, study circles etc. He was invited to speak at Stanmore I believe in the Muharram of 2007. Sheikh Hamza Sodagar, another of the Hawza students, who has given lectures in many communities as well as done many projects in different parts of the World. I can name you many more. The question to ask is why is it that the communities are inviting certain speakers again and again while others are disregarded? If it is a matter of knowledge then it is understandable but when there are speakers/scholars more knowledgeable with years of Hawza experience as well as great speaking skills who are disregarded then the question has to be raised that on what basis are our communities inviting speakers/scholars?

Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. Make the replies to Naik, make the replies to Manji and Hirsi Ali, make the replies to the verses about beating women and about killing the unbelievers that are posted all over the internet as examples of the barbarity of Islam, put yourselves out there. Nakshawani has done it, so if you aren't going to, don't complain. If you find yourseves being sidelined, you only have yourselves to blame.

Bro, have you heard of Sheikh Mahmood Abdullah? Mehdi Hasan? Sheikh Usama AbdulGhani? Please look up their works in regards to what you have stated above.

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

I've read a lot of nice "theory" on this thread. Fact is, Naskhawani's lectures are all over you tube, and he delivers the goods. He is young and is not a hawza student, but unless and until the hawza students step up to the plate and make themselves useful rather than just sitting in their basements berating the fall of civilisation, then don't expect us to care for their opinion.

Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. Make the replies to Naik, make the replies to Manji and Hirsi Ali, make the replies to the verses about beating women and about killing the unbelievers that are posted all over the internet as examples of the barbarity of Islam, put yourselves out there. Nakshawani has done it, so if you aren't going to, don't complain. If you find yourseves being sidelined, you only have yourselves to blame.

It is true that there is a requirement for those who have studied at the Islamic Seminaries to "make themselves useful"; and from what I am aware; most - if not all - of the Hawza Students that I am in touch with have always been available. However, sometimes there is little value in responding to that which is not relavent, since in responding to that which is irrelevant one grants it a degree of credence and relavence.

Consider, Imam Khumayni(A) chose to respond to Mr Rushdie, but not to others; since Imam Khumayni(A)'s passing, none of the Maraje' - from Ayatullah al-Udhma Khui(A) to the current list of our esteemed Maraje' have chosen to not dignify some of these irrelevancies with a response. Certainly the cartoons insulting Prophet Muhammad(S) they require a reply, but jibberish spewed by one Mr Naik; who is in reality one of the most ignorant people on the face of this Earth is essentially a waste of time. It is known that someone like Mr Naik; who recieves extensive sponsership from the Wahhabi Institutions in Occupied Hijaz - in fact his "Peace TV" is primarily funded by such establishments - will without a doubt say what he has said about Yazid(L), this is not surprising, and it shouldn't be dignified by massive replies.

Shaykh Mahmoud Abdullah(HA) of Leicester has extensively replied to the words of Mr Naik, and has broken his arguments completely; once it has been done intellectually there is no requirement for a thousand other Islamic Students to also reply. After all Mr Naik is only going on that which is in his books and is part of his belief system.

We as Shia, have this terrible problem; that is we choose to look at others, we choose to point our proverbial finger, and this is fine and sometimes required; however, we should always be weary that as one finger points away from us; three point back towards us.

There is no-one here complaining of being sidelined as you so suggest; not at all; all are working for Allah to the best of their capacities; the issue at hand - which clearly you have failed to grasp my respected Brother/Sister is that of - and I am now putting it quite bluntly - the question is twofold:

1/ The ethical responsibilities each and every one of us have to ourselves, to our respected brethren, to members of humanity, to our Leaders (Maraje' Taqleed, Wali al-Faqih) in the absence of Imam al-Hujjah(AJ), to Imam al-Hujjah(AJ), to the Aimmah al-Athaar(A), to Fatema az-Zahra(A), to Muhammad ibn Abdillah(S) and ultimately to Allah.

2/ The issue of encouraging and indeed soliciting, as well as promoting and being proud about the buying and selling of God; of profiting from the blood of the innocents in Karbala.

While Mr Naik and others might have said terrible things; and no-one is disputing that what they said was wrong (sadly most people are not even aware of exactly what he said, but instead choose to go on conjecture and heresay, but that's another discussion), it is important for us to realise; that while Mr Naik might be saying "Yazid(L) may Allah be pleased with him", and that "the event of Karbala was a political battle of rivalry between two clansmen" (or words to the effect of); what is more concerning is that there are those who choose to allege on the one hand that they are following the path of Aba Abdillah(A), but promptly fall into the trap of ACTING in a manner that is more befitting Yazid(L), may Allah curse him.

Now; this comes back to the hadeeth I had quoted earlier:

There are those who recite Quran; but Quran is cursing them

If Mr Naik is saying something bad, then it is known that his belief system lends him to saying that which he said; he comes from those people who sided with Abu Musa Ash'ari(L), who when Aisha rose up with Talha and Zubair under the pretext of "vengence for the blood of Uthman" and wanted to wage war on our Master, Ameer al-Mu'mineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib(A) - to whome they (Talha and Zubair) had just given the Oath of Allegience (Bay'ah); Abu Musa(L), went on the Mimbar in Kufa, and declared the same about the battle between Imam Ali(A) and Aisha(A); he said it is a battle between "family members, between the wife of the Prophet(S) and the brother of the Prophet(S)", he actively told Muslims NOT TO GET INVOLVED. This is the same Abu Musa(L) who in siffin was made the arbitor on the side of Imam Ali(A) - by the cursed Khawarej; he was made the arbitor to discuss a settlement on the issue of Siffin with the most treacherous and conniving of politicians; Amr-o-Aas(L), the confidant and adviser to Muawiyyah(L).

So for Mr Naik to say something similar is hardly surprising, it is what the people who have bughz (hatred) for the true Islam have been saying for centuries and will continue to say until the Day when the Truth is made manifest to them and they will have no arguments left to spew to the people. May Allah hasten that day.

Instead of getting embroiled in such pointless falacies; once a single and strong reply - such as that by the respected Alem Rabbani and Scholar of Quran, Shaykh Mahmoud Abdullah(HA); there is no requirement for others to step in and add their two pence worth. None what-so-ever.

After Imam Khumyni(A) pronounced his opinion on Mr Rushdie; did Ayatullah al-Udhma Araki(A), Ayatullah al-Udhma Golpaygani(A), Ayatullah al-Udhma Khui(A) and so on, also step in with their two pence worth? Off course not; they remained silent in agreement with the verdict - whcih incidently was a hukm and not a fatwa as is the common misconception - of Imam Khumayni(A) and carried on.

There is no point in waste more bandwidth and time on these type of people than is absolutely neccessary.

Your assumption and declaration that the Hawza Students and Ulema is both invalid and grossly inaccurate.

As for your point that we should "make answers for the verses on marital discipline and the rights of women" this is an indication of exactly the situation of our Ummah, and why we need learned people teaching as opposed to non-Learned people. We, as Muslims - especially as Shia of Haider al-Karrar(A) - accept every single letter, every single vowel in the Quran as divine, if we feel it doesn't conform to our "modern" society - or is not "poltically" correct; then quite frankly that doesn't render a "reply to Quran" neccessarily; instead it requires that people learn more; develop their believe more and move closer to Allah; that their existance and lives are NOT led in a manner that seeks to argue with Allah.

Have we so swiftly forgotten the plight of the Children of Israel; when they were made to wander the wilderness of 40 years by Allah on account of their haughtyness and arrogance? Whence they reverted back to disbelief as Musa(A) was atop Mount Sinai? Whence they declared to Musa(A); after the manifest proofs had been given to them of Allah's mercy upon them, that they wanted more; that they wanted to see Allah and such things as clearly mentioned in Quran? Have we not learned the important lessons? If not - WHY NOT? Clearly it must be because either our teachers and lectures have been more pre-occupied with repeating the virtues of Ahl al-Bayt(A) and recounting the lamentations, instead of teaching the actual message of Ahl al-Bayt(A).

DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND (deliberate emphasis), do not misunderstand what I am saying; without any doubt there is monumental value and blessings in recounting the virtues of Imam Ali(A), in reading and learning Sermons such as the Sermon of Iftikhariyyeh and Bayan (of Imam Ali(A)), of understanding the plethora of messages in the words of Imam Sajjad(A) as he told Yazid(L) and those assembled in his court as they played with the severed head of our Master, Aba Abdillah al-Husayn(A); as he told them "Anabna Makkata Wa Mina, Anabna Zamzama Was-Safa" (I am the son of Makkah and Mina, I am the son of Zamzam and Safa) - without a doubt there is much much value in recounting the fadhail (virtues) of the Ahl al-Bayt(A), however, the reason why the recounting of the virtues of Ahl al-Bayt(A) is more important than the matn of the virtues themselves.

Without understanding the reasonings behind the virtues, without understanding the causes and effects of the lamentations, there is no possible way for one to understand and as a result act in a manner that is like unto the dog of the servants of the maid-servant of az-Zahra(A), Lady Fidha(A); who for 30 years spoke only in Quran. The greatness of Fidha(A) is not purely in that she spoke for 30 years in Quran; but that she understood and acted upon Quran so much; that for 30 years she was able to speak and discource ONLY in words of Quran; her greatness is in that she had become the living embodiment of Quran; Subhan Allah. Allahu Akbar Wa La Hawla Wala Quwwata Illa Billah al-Aliy al-Adheem!!

I trust that his is clear and understood now my respected brother/sister.

Moving on;

(bismillah)

(salam)

The problem that we have on hand is part of something much bigger. The issue goes beyond fees, charging etc ... , as can be seen from the points brought up by our respected brothers and sisters within this discussion.

The bigger problem is what you may call the global incompetence of the self-acclaimed followers of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Ahlul-Bayt (as) (myself included, of course).

It wouldn't be possible to list the several deficiencies in one post, and nor do I wish to, but this is something we absolutely have to rectify.

Before anything else, we have to remember how fortunate we are to have recognized the truth through the best sources of guidance, the two weighty things. This is a gift from our Lord, Allah (swt), and it comes with a significant amount of responsibility.

We have to take this seriously and start shouldering our duties properly. Half-Shiaism is worthless, it would be better to choose between all or nothing, so that we're either following the path as it ought to be followed, or not following it without bringing disgrace upon it. Following the Ahlul Bayt should be a chosen identity, rather than some form of part-time heritage or social trend.

One of the brothers very correctly pointed out that the dedication that is seen in other movements, religious and non-religious, puts us to shame. The question is simple: do we actually have less faith in the truth than others do in falsehood?

I would like to share a narration that is quoted in one of the books recommended by our brother in this thread, Greater Sins, by the martyr Ayatullah Dastaaghaib Shirazi:

Isa bin Abdullah Qummi entered in the presence of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.). The Imam said,

“That person is not from us nor do we hold him in esteem, the one who, if he lives in a town of a population of hundred thousand and there is even one non-Shia who is more pious than him.”

(al-Kāfi).

-Chapter 1, Greater Sins

We've made a mistake by lowering our standards and satisfying ourselves with spiritual mediocrity (while demanding the best of the material world), as well as a lack of global dedication.

While a small proportion of brothers and sisters put a lot of effort and sincerity into spreading the message, the large majority of us seem to be have satisfied ourselves with being occasional guests who should be served by the dedicated minority in the name of religion.

This is the global problem.

To get back to the specific issue in this thread, the small details are not going to matter as long as there is an overall passive approach to religion. Once each and every one of us assumes their role as a partisan of the 12th Imam (as) then these problems will fade away, because they are ultimately due to our own inadequacy.

The issue of speakers choosing well-paying venues over "smaller" centres shouldn't have ever been an issue in the Shia school of thought. The concept of "well-paid" as opposed to "lowly-paid" simply doesn't exist. All sustenance is from Allah (swt), out of which 80% is a gift for us and 20% is returned in His cause. Our only use for money is basic survival, and ideally the rest would be going towards productive causes.

If every "believer" returned the amount that they owe to Allah (swt), also knows as the Khums and the Zakat, then we wouldn't have any "rich" centres and "poor" centres, and the speakers would be provided for by a fund that is specifically designated for the purpose.

As long as we don't go by the rules and ethics the system isn't going to work, and this goes for both the speakers and the masses. We might find ourselves a few convenient short-term solutions, but there's only one long-term solution and it requires an effort from every one of us.

Respected Brother, Ahsantum, may Allah grant you more tawfeeq for such eloquant replies; and may Allah grant us the understanding and presence of heart to understand the pearls of wisdom that you have scribed; Ameen.

All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord Sustainer of the Universes,

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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Nonetheless, that is an issue of social responsibility; we are all free to choose whether or not we want to fulfill our social responsibilities.

That's the key. Where do their [orators] priorities lie? Is it to benefit their wallets or benefit the community. Someone suggested why would XXX recite in front 100s when he recite in front of 1000s. I was going to comment, but your post is more than sufficent to answer them. SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY.

^ without knowing what these claimed 'ludicrous amounts' are, I personally think that mosques, Islamic centres etc need to rethink their own budgeting and put a ceiling on the amount paid to speakers. I think thats fair enough and if this is done across the board it will make the whole payment system fairer and not open to slander.

I guess I'm not the only one making sych a ludricus suggestion :)

Trust me, if a community (of tens of thousands) can collectively stop sending their KHUMs to the MARAJA and instead collect and distribute it themselves, if a community that will deny the burial or the nikkah of a member who has not paid his dues -- I think such a community can create a honorarium cap for speakers (for all members to follow). It's a not far-fetched idea.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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Some people do not like any criticism of a "public figure" because he may be doing some good and bringing some youth to Islam.

OOo wonder who that was to!???!

sister in the izlamafications,

The fact that the public figure is one of our own shia, we should support and encourage him. If he's doing something we don't like or against islamic laws and principle then we should inform him about this, because he might not even know he's doing it.

And all that...yes yes if they do something openly then you can cuss them openly, but so far what he's done is just had his shirt open and according to you is wearing tight jeans! I don't quite think that warrants a slating on a public forum....

Furthermore any criticisms MUST be constructive otherwise we're not gonna come to a solution....and quite frankly these essays aren't doing anyone any benefit...since the beginning of this topic Ammar has probably converted like 20 hindus and what have we all done, but spent hours writing [Edited Out] that won't even help us in the akhira...

YA GET ME

SALAYKUM SALAM EVERYBODY MOVE YOUR BODY ROCK YOUR BODY

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Trust me, if a community (of tens of thousands) can collectively stop sending their KHUMs to the MARAJA and instead collect and distribute it themselves, if a community that will deny the burial or the nikkah of a member who has not paid his dues -- I think such a community can create a honorarium cap for speakers (for all members to follow). It's a not far-fetched idea.

Another good point. How can centres be spending so much for speakers when there are other needs that need to be paid for? Burials are being denied! SubhanAllah that is wajib on the community. Charging for Nikkahs? Why? There is an entire plethora of social, recreational, and community needs to think about let alone spending out on speakers. We need to have food, clothing, work, etc programs, shelters for those that need it, etc etc. There is no way centres should be spending out crazy cash for speakers and still at the same time have membership fees that are outrageous! Said centre doesn't even have a dawah program for nonMuslims or newMuslims!

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OOo wonder who that was to!???!

Apply it to whoever you like. If you feel like it refers to this person, then apply it to him. If not, there are plenty of others it can apply to.

The fact that the public figure is one of our own shia, we should support and encourage him.

No, absolutely not. I have seen enough corruption from "public figures" to think even for a moment that we should support everything from someone just because they are Shi'a. I have seen enough practicing and believing Muslims driven away from Islam because of misdeeds of "public figures".

Regarding this person, I support the things he is doing right. I have heard several of his lectures, and, overall, the content and delivery was quite good.

However, that does not mean we should turn a blind eye to audio and video lectures that are PUBLICLY ARCHIVED for all to see and hear. If it's wrong, we should say it is wrong, especially since some people who are uninformed might listen to it and agree because they do not have strong background knowledge in Islam.

What he said in the first audio clip was wrong, straight up. There are no two ways about it, and I see no good in pretending that it is anything but that.

If he's doing something we don't like or against islamic laws and principle then we should inform him about this, because he might not even know he's doing it.

You mentioned in another thread that you are friends... so why don't you tell him about it? A true servant of God will accept advice with humility and will consider it, whether or not they ultimately choose to agree with it or not.

And all that...yes yes if they do something openly then you can cuss them openly, but so far what he's done is just had his shirt open and according to you is wearing tight jeans! I don't quite think that warrants a slating on a public forum....

The issues we are discussing are much broader than tight trousers.

(However, the trousers were definitely too tight - especially for a discussion about HIJAB and MODESTY - and, as a female, I felt embarrassed to look at the video of him. Perhaps he did not realize what they would look like sitting down, so please do advise him about that)

This thread is several pages; reread it to get a good idea of what is being discussed.

Furthermore any criticisms MUST be constructive otherwise we're not gonna come to a solution....and quite frankly these essays aren't doing anyone any benefit...since the beginning of this topic Ammar has probably converted like 20 hindus and what have we all done, but spent hours writing [Edited Out] that won't even help us in the akhira...

They may not have been of benefit to you, but that does not mean they have not been beneficial to others. We are discussing real problems in our communities, and real problems need to be discussed in order to be aware of them. Shoving things under the prayer rug doesn't anyone.

And I am sure you really did not mean to say that everything everyone has said is "[Edited Out]". Some of what we have been talking about touches on the core issues of Islam. Surely you would not call that "[Edited Out]".

Also, as a side note... I am sure all of the "first generation" Muslims will agree... a person does not "convert" another person to Islam. Even the Prophet did not have the power or charisma to do that; in his time, there were still disbelievers. A person acceptss the truth inside his or her own heart, and Allah opens our hearts to the truth. Anything someone else does is just a vehicle and once piece out of many that leads to coming to Islam.

I've read a lot of nice "theory" on this thread. Fact is, Naskhawani's lectures are all over you tube, and he delivers the goods. He is young and is not a hawza student, but unless and until the hawza students step up to the plate and make themselves useful rather than just sitting in their basements berating the fall of civilisation, then don't expect us to care for their opinion.

I also have to disagree. I have met many brothers AND sisters who are "walking the walk", who do use whatever knowledge and insight they have to try to guide the community. They may not be "all over youtube", but they are out there, whether they are lecturing to five people or five hundred. They are the unseen army working for Imam Zaman (atf). Some even work anonymously, writing books or publications or Internet resources (such as the DILP on al-islam.org), organizing conferences, building masjids, running schools, and teaching the youth. Saying that only one person is serving Islam is an injustice to all of the dedicated brothers and sisters who have fought to keep Islam alive in the West and all over the modern world.

Additionally, I would invite you to reread the quote from Amir al-Mumineen (as) that I just posted. Seek the truth. If their opinion is true, then accept it. If it is not true, then refute it, but don't just sit there and say you don't care for it because you think they are sitting in their basements.

Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. Make the replies to Naik, make the replies to Manji and Hirsi Ali, make the replies to the verses about beating women and about killing the unbelievers that are posted all over the internet as examples of the barbarity of Islam, put yourselves out there. Nakshawani has done it, so if you aren't going to, don't complain. If you find yourseves being sidelined, you only have yourselves to blame.

Honestly... I have better things to do than to engage in argument with disbelievers... I feel like guiding our community and educating the younger generation is a higher priority than arguing with someone who doesn't care about the future of Islam in the first place and who is set in their misguidance.

I mean, if someone else wants to do it, it's great, and I won't criticize them... but I personally do not feel that is our priority.

The audio clip is down. Is there another link for it?

It works now... maybe the server was busy

Edited by BintAlHoda
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Honestly... I have better things to do than to engage in argument with disbelievers... I feel like guiding our community and educating the younger generation is a higher priority than arguing with someone who doesn't care about the future of Islam in the first place and who is set in their misguidance.

I mean, if someone else wants to do it, it's great, and I won't criticize them... but I personally do not feel that is our priority.

It's not for them, you don't seriously think I care about Manji or Hirsi Ali do you? It's the global war that is taking place right now on the internet. Hirsi Ali and Manji are intellectual nothings, yet they are lauded across the US and Europe for their "heroic" efforts. If the Hawza students are not willing to fight as soldiers in this war and counter the propaganda that is seeking to demonise your religion, then don't complain when someone else, maybe less knowledgeable fills in for them.

Shabir Ali's post reflects a disconnect between us and the Hawza. He says that so and so don't deserve a response....That's not the point!! of course they themselves don't deserve as response, but millions of clueless muslims and non-muslims out there who are being influenced by these people do deserve a response, and Nakshawani is stepping up to the task.

I don't care about the hawza, just like I don't care about some Oxford professor who spends his days studying Russian literature. What they do in their own time studying the finer points of some esoteric concept is their business, but they need to be out there on the front line of this propaganda war or don't expect us to take them seriously.

I don't advocate charging large amounts, but the way I see it, it is the lesser of two evils. The other evil being that no one does anything anyone pays attention to.

Also, there was a list of sheikhs mentioned. I have heard maybe of one or two of them. Now, I'm a Shia on Shiachat, and if I've only heard of a couple of them, what do you think it's like for everyone else? Please live in the real world people, its not like Shiachat.

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If the Hawza students are not willing to fight as soldiers in this war and counter the propaganda that is seeking to demonise your religion, then don't complain when someone else, maybe less knowledgeable fills in for them.

Why are you so negative about the brothers (AND sisters) here who have taken the immense amount of time and effort it takes to give up their lives here and go study at the hawzah? I know many who have done that and use their experience to contribute. Just because they aren't doing that where you live doesn't mean they don't do it other places.

It's not a question of being "less knowledgable"... there were other issues being discussed

Also, there was a list of sheikhs mentioned. I have heard maybe of one or two of them. Now, I'm a Shia on Shiachat, and if I've only heard of a couple of them, what do you think it's like for everyone else? Please live in the real world people, its not like Shiachat.

What exactly is your point? Are you saying that we need to advertise more?

I have heard of them and I have HEARD them too - and that was before I even heard of ShiaChat. And I am living in the same real world you do.

In fact, I do not even believe the opinions on ShiaChat represent the majority of the Shia community. It is a group, but it is not everyone.

If someone genuinely cares to learn, they will seek out people to learn from. Alhamdulillah I have been blessed to hear many Muslim speakers in my life who conveyed their message well in the English language. Sometimes it took effort. I went places I didn't usually go, stayed up late, drove farther than usual, took the bus at night, took time off working or studying, took classes, went to conferences, etc. If someone cares, they will do it.

But some people don't care enough to make the effort. They will sit at home and wait till someone comes to their own masjid where everyone of their own ethnicity and ideology goes. Because if they're Arab, they can't go to the Pakistani masjid, and if they're Pakistani, they can't go to the Arab masjid, and if they're anti-wilayat al-faqih, they can't go to the pro-wilayat al-faqih masjid, even if God Himself is speaking there. They can't be bothered to travel more than 15 minutes to go hear a majlis. They have work and school and other places to go. If it's not Ashura, then forget about it. If these people live their whole lives and only hear about one or two speakers, then that shows what they value. We can encourage people, but we can't spoon feed people. There needs to be some individual effort.

It's the global war that is taking place right now on the internet. Hirsi Ali and Manji are intellectual nothings, yet they are lauded across the US and Europe for their "heroic" efforts.

This is going to go OT and perhaps deserves another thread... but, at the end of the day, Islam does not live on the Internet. Yes, the Internet is a very powerful propaganda tool. But, in the end, knowledge and faith live in the hearts of the believers - and, nowdays, the disbelievers hate us anyway.

It is useful to write an article and post it refuting these people, so if there is a google search, it will show up. But we can also overestimate the importance of the internet to our community.

Ultimately, true guidance and understanding comes from research and debate that takes place offline. Anyone who gets misguided by reading a lesbo-Muslim online probably was uninterested in guidance in the first place.

You mentioned the "real world"... the internet is like a mirage. Real people and real discussions are 1000x more powerful than something that someone googles, skims, and then closes the window on.

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1/ Expenses at an economy level; meaning if a speaker is to be invited from far and wide; his passage (at an economy, coach or budget level) should be covered, he should be provided with food and board (again at economy or budget level)

i dont disagree with speakers being provided expenses at an economy level, but what happens when they go back home? they are not at the hawza so they are not getting any stipends. some of them are also not in full time employment. so they need to make some money to be able to survive.

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If it is a matter of knowledge then it is understandable but when there are speakers/scholars more knowledgeable with years of Hawza experience as well as great speaking skills who are disregarded then the question has to be raised that on what basis are our communities inviting speakers/scholars?

I don’t know exactly what criteria our community uses to invite speakers. But bro we cant deny that these popular speakers do have an influence on the youth. The fact remains that style does make a difference in today’s world (it made a difference then too, all the imams were good orators). We do need people who understand the culture properly. As imam Ali said we shouldn’t bring up our children the same way as we were brought up because they belong to a different time than ours. The reason these speakers (rajabali, nakshwani, moderrasi, qazwinis etc) are popular is because they appeal to the youth.

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

It's not for them, you don't seriously think I care about Manji or Hirsi Ali do you? It's the global war that is taking place right now on the internet. Hirsi Ali and Manji are intellectual nothings, yet they are lauded across the US and Europe for their "heroic" efforts. If the Hawza students are not willing to fight as soldiers in this war and counter the propaganda that is seeking to demonise your religion, then don't complain when someone else, maybe less knowledgeable fills in for them.

Shabir Ali's post reflects a disconnect between us and the Hawza. He says that so and so don't deserve a response....That's not the point!! of course they themselves don't deserve as response, but millions of clueless muslims and non-muslims out there who are being influenced by these people do deserve a response, and Nakshawani is stepping up to the task.

I don't care about the hawza, just like I don't care about some Oxford professor who spends his days studying Russian literature. What they do in their own time studying the finer points of some esoteric concept is their business, but they need to be out there on the front line of this propaganda war or don't expect us to take them seriously.

I don't advocate charging large amounts, but the way I see it, it is the lesser of two evils. The other evil being that no one does anything anyone pays attention to.

Also, there was a list of sheikhs mentioned. I have heard maybe of one or two of them. Now, I'm a Shia on Shiachat, and if I've only heard of a couple of them, what do you think it's like for everyone else? Please live in the real world people, its not like Shiachat.

Respected Brother/Sister Dirac Delta function, I think you are mistaken; I also feel that our respected Sister Bint ul-Huda has answered you sufficiently; however, I do wish to add one item if I may;

You don't care about the Hawza and you don't care about "studying Russian Literature" (assumed meaning Secular Studies); with this is your perogative; but clearly you do care; otherwise you wouldn't be so upset about what is being said.

Also, intelligence is extremely important; if you don't care about the Hawza (the Centre for Islamic Learning); then how can you appreciate the excellent words of Imam as-Sadiq(A) when he said to Mufaddal:

Certain persons of our people have narrated in a marfu’ manner from Mufaddal ibn Umar from Abu ‘Abdallah(A) (Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq(A)) who has said the following:

O Mufaddal one can never gain success until he understands and one can never understand until he acquires knowledge.

One who understands can very soon excel.

One who exercises patience can very soon triumph.

Knowledge serves one as a shield, truth is honor, ignorance is humility, sharp wittedness is glory, generosity is success and ethical excellence attracts friendship.

One who possesses the know how of his time confusion does not frustrate him.

Strong determination creates pessimism.

Allah is the guardian of those who know Him.

He is the enemy of those who pretend to know Him.

A person of intelligence is forgiving and an ignorant person is treacherous.

If you like to be honored you must become kind hearted and if you like to be insulted become harsh.

One whose origin is noble he is kind hearted.

One whose element is rough his liver is thick.

The extremist falls into crisis.

One who is afraid of the consequences desists from involvement in what he has no knowledge of.

One who engages in an affair without knowing anything about it he is headed to his own loss.

One who does not know he does not understand and one who does not understand he does not agree and become peaceful.

One who does not agree and submit he is not respected and one who is not respected is broke and one who is so broke is blamable and one who is in such a condition must become regretful for his own self.

(Kulayni, al-Kafi, Volume 1 - the Book of Intelligence and Ignorance, Chapter 1, Hadeeth 29)

I leave you to ponder upon that; however; you say that you've not heard of many lecturers; and you claim to be a Shia on Shiachat - are you not a Shia outside Shiachat - indeed you are and I would also suggest that you are a Muslim; you have access to far more that that which you claim. I propose that instead you are suggesting that there are only one or two speakers - even on Shiachat I can say confidenly that we have - or have had - far more than one or two speakers; there is no need to mention them, but really; even on Shiachat there have been far more than a few.

Yes the speakers may differ in their understandings and comprehension of concepts; they might have differing opinions on jurisprudential matters; but the bottom line is that they attempt to teach Islamic Concepts as best as they can.

I would like to now propose a different theory; one that will assist us in determining what exactly is meant by a "good speaker"; what constitutes a "good speech"; once we know what constitutes a "good speech" we can then go in search of it; without having a clear definition of that which we are looking for, we will merely flail around aimlessly and achieve very little.

This question is open to all; not just to Our respected Delta Function.

What constitutes a "good speech";

Is it:

1/ A speach that makes us feel good?

2/ A speach that teaches us something we didn't know?

3/ A speach that extalls the virtues of Ahl al-Bayt(A) only?

4/ A speach that speaks of the tragedies of Ahl al-Bayt(A) only?

5/ A speach that forces us to rethink ourselves?

6/ A speach that says things we don't like, because he acts as a mirror on our own actions and makes us feel terrible; thereby forcing us to change our ways and reform?

7/ A speach that responds to all and sundry when talking about Islam; and does little else?

8/ A speach that mocks and ridicules other religions/sects in order to make it's own seem better?

Once we have some answers to this (perhaps if required on a new thread, I don't know - just be sure to link to the new thread from here if possible).

Moving on;

i dont disagree with speakers being provided expenses at an economy level, but what happens when they go back home? they are not at the hawza so they are not getting any stipends. some of them are also not in full time employment. so they need to make some money to be able to survive.

I appreciate your point; and what I have been suggesting as the core is what I would call the rule; there will without a doubt be exceptions to the rule which have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I don’t know exactly what criteria our community uses to invite speakers. But bro we cant deny that these popular speakers do have an influence on the youth. The fact remains that style does make a difference in today’s world (it made a difference then too, all the imams were good orators). We do need people who understand the culture properly. As imam Ali said we shouldn’t bring up our children the same way as we were brought up because they belong to a different time than ours. The reason these speakers (rajabali, nakshwani, moderrasi, qazwinis etc) are popular is because they appeal to the youth.

While I appreciate that "style" is important; there is something considerably more important; which is content and relavence; as well as practical application of said content by given speaker. For example; to speak about Hijab; while being immodestly dressed renders the entire message somewhat void; on account of the stench of hypocrisy that would cloud the entire situation.

In Islam; we are not permitted - to "use any means neccessary"; we have to "use any HALAL means neccessary"; meaning that if we are talking about Hijab; ideally it shouldn't be in a situation where our own hijab and that of the interviewer are somewhat compromised; as well as the hijab of the viewer which could be compromised.

Do we not remember the famous event when Fatima az-Zahra(A) stayed behind a curtain and fully vieled; when a blind and old man came to visit. The Prophet(S) afterwards asked Fatima(A) why she remained behind the curtain and fully vieled; to which the Lady of Light replied "He might have been blind but I am not".

Meaning that even in such a situation; she protected her Hijab and that of herself; can we - as those who allege loyalty to az-Zahra(A) do any less? Can we flaunt the Hijab as we do? Subhan Allah; truely many of us torture az-Zahra(A) and Zaynab(A); Muhammad(S) and Ali(A); while claiming to be lovers of the same.

We MUST protect ourselves from these things.

To suggest that the community must settle for mediocrity on account of the "excellent" oratory prowess of a few speakers is to capitulate to Shaytaan's whims. Instead we must work on a modification of the structure of a session.

Granted; there is a big advantage in having strong orators; however; more important is that lessons are given that are of value to the people; to make the people just feel good; and go back to their lives no better than when they entered the Majles is to betray the spirit of the majles; every majles one attends should improve a person; not just make them feel like they have improved; really improve a lasting improvement.

So why not structure it as follows:

1/ You have an Alem Rabbani or an Islamic Student from the Hawza to give a LESSON

2/ You have an excelleant orator to recite the virtues and lamentations of Ahl al-BaytÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã

You split the time 2/3 for the Lesson and 1/3 for the oratory. Like is done in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon and many parts of the Muslim world and has been the case for decades, nay centuries.

If the model of requiring one person to do all doesn't work - that's fine; no problem; people have strengths and weaknesses in varying areas; lets leverage the stregnths of the various types of speakers instead of settling for a combined format that is ultimately mediocre;

In having a split session; we get the best in terms of a lesson; and the best in terms of Maddahi (oratory/exaltations/lamentations)

However; for both cases; the payment regime that I have described previously and proven - with given exceptions as and when required AND PROVEN (as outlined above) - should remain. The maddah should never be paid an extravagent amount, nor should the the Alem be paid an extravagent fee. Both should have their expenses met; following which if members of the community wish to give gifts to the speakers then these should be given directly to the speakers themselves.

All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord Sustainer of the Universes;

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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