Who Are Alevi And What Are Their Belief ?

[Jaf]

Yesterday i was watching BBC News, and in the news they told that, Alevi Muslims who are in good number in 'Turkey' want the Govt to recognize their religion or faith as they don't want their Children to learn Sunni Islam in Schools etc. I know Alevi Muslims are also living in Syria and current Govt led by Bashar Al-Asad in syria is also from the Alevi family.

I have some idea about them, that they are somwhat like 'Shia' Muslims but not actually Shia Muslims, someone told me that they think Imam Ali (A) was actually God or something like that, just like Christians who think Jesus (A) was son of God like that.

Can you please share more about their Belief and their history.

If We Shia think of them as Muslims or non-Muslims.??

Edited March 17, 2008 by Jaf

[Nazireh7]

I know Alevi Muslims are also living in Syria and current Govt led by Bashar Al-Asad in syria is also from the Alevi family.

Assalaamu alaikum

No, the Asad govt in Syria aren't Alevi, they're Alawi...they're two different things. I've read somewhere that according to Shiia Islam, the Alevis are kaffir.

[Toronto110]

Yesterday i was watching BBC News, and in the news they told that, Alevi Muslims who are in good number in 'Turkey' want the Govt to recognize their religion or faith as they don't want their Children to learn Sunni Islam in Schools etc. I know Alevi Muslims are also living in Syria and current Govt led by Bashar Al-Asad in syria is also from the Alevi family.

I have some idea about them, that they are somwhat like 'Shia' Muslims but not actually Shia Muslims, someone told me that they think Imam Ali (A) was actually God or something like that, just like Christians who think Jesus (A) was son of God like that.

Can you please share more about their Belief and their history.

If We Shia think of them as Muslims or non-Muslims.??

I know one thing that we do have Alawi Syeds in Pakistan, They are the children of Hazrat Ali (as) with other wives (Zawwaaj e Muhtaram), but they are Ithna Ashari (exactly like us) (eg: lineage of Hazrat Mohammad Hanafia (Razi Allah swt)), not like the Alevi/Alawi of Syria or Southren Turkey etc. The other Alawis/Alevis are basically Nusairis who say (Naood billah) that Hazrat Ali (as) is God (naood billah min zalik). They are Kafirs. Athna Asharis (Imami Twelvers) have nothing to do with them and they are as najis as a sculpture-worshiper.

[Jaf]

^^ alright. thanks for the information, Yeah here in Pakistan i did hear that they believe Imam Ali (a) is God, and i know Alevi here in pakistan are not of their kind...... but as i read on wikipedia there was nothing like they think Imam Ali is God, they believe in 12 Imams but they are way different than the Shia Muslims ...

and now another question if someone can clarify

What is different between Alevi and Alawi ... i thought they are the same?????

[bkt900]

The Alevis are a confusing group, to say the least.

First, let me start off by saying that they have NOTHING to do with Alawis; the only similarities between them are their Shiite influences. Many people, including Prof. Hamid Algar at Berkeley, have made the fatal mistake of grouping them together in the same group. They are two, totally separate sects.

The literal meaning of the Turkish term "Alevi" simply means follower of Ali (as). Now, the Alevis themselves are divided; from what I've read, there is no monolithic Alevi ideology. Some Alevis are atheist secular humanists and reject Islam completely; they don't see Alevism as a religion but rather as an outlook on life (why they still refer to themselves as Alevi is beyond me). Other secular Alevis say that God is Man and Man is God. Then we have the Alevi-Bektashis who can best be described as Shiite Sufis with too much of an emphasis on tariqat and tasawuf rather than Sharia. We also have Alevis who are basically Sunnis, with a sympathy towards Ali (as), and then we got Alevis who are pure Jaffari school Orthodox Twelver Shias.

However, I've never heard any Alevi group ever deify Ali (as) in any way. Some groups tend to exaggerate their love for Ali, putting him on the same level of the Prophet (pbuh), but there's no deification whatsoever, as far as I know.

The lack of unity among Alevis is that it is first and foremost a folk religion mixed in with various

Islamic, Sufi, and Shiite elements. Different Alevi villages in Turkey will have different beliefs and practices from each other.

The most common group are the Alevi-Bektashis (and even they have certain divisions), and they are the ones trying to push for the establishment of a single version of Alevism to be taught along with Sunni Islam. This is ticking off the Jaffari Alevis, as they themselves want recognition from the Turkish state as well.

The Alevi-Bektashis basically fused Alevism with the beliefs of the Bektashi Sufi order, due to the great similarities in their philosophies. Here are their beliefs as follows:

They do not accept the authority of the first three caliphs and believe that Ali (as) was usurped. They also curse Yazid and Muwayiah for their vile actions against Imam Hussein (as), Imam Hassan (as), and the Ahlul-Bayt (as). They accept the authority of the 12 Imams (as), and they believe in the return of the 12th Imam, Imam Mahdi (as). Their shahadah is Ash-hadu ala ilaha illallah wash-hadu anna Muhammadar rasulallah wash-hadu anna Aliyyun waliyullah, no different than Orthodox Shiism.

The problem is that besides the Quran, the Alevis really have no other collection of writings or sayings other than the Buyruks, which have compilations of the sayings of Imam Jaffar al-Sadiq (as), Shah Ismail, Pir Sultan Abdal, Haji Bektashi Wali, and stories of other great mystics and saints). Most of their beliefs, however, derive from the teachings of Hajji Bektashi Wali, Yunus Emre (his poetry is a huge influence), and Pir Sultan Abdal. It is highly unlikely that any of these Alevi groups, besides the Jaffaris, had access to any Shiite hadith collections or even Nahjul Balagha, as Alevism for the most part has been transmitted orally from generation to generation. However, one saying that Alevis use frequently to prove the worth of Ali is the following: Muhammed ilim şehridir, Ali kapısıdır, which translates to "Muhammad is the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its door" - this undoubtedly has its origins in the hadith (shared by both Sunnis and Shiites) where the Prophet (pbuh) says that he is the city of knowledge, and Ali (as) is its door. Alevis also use the Turkish equivalent of the saying "Every day is Ashura, every land is Karbala".

The Alevi-Bektashis also believe in the following: The Alevi path has four doors or stages:

1. Seriat/Shariah ("religious law")

2. Tarikat/Tariqat ("spiritual brotherhood")

3. Marifat ("spiritual knowledge")

4. Hakikat ("Reality" or "Truth", i.e., God)

Now, here's where the weirdness comes in. The Alevi-Bektashi sskip the first door and go straight into tariqat. They give no importance to salat, fasting during Ramadan, going on Hajj, etc. Some Alevis have gone as far to say that those were all just Arab practices that have nothing to do with Islam (arigstafullah), that all the Sunni hadith books are full of fabrications, and that Sunnism is nothing more than Arab cultural imperialism. They see their way as a pure, Turkish interpretation of Islam. This view, however, is not shared by all Alevis, and it has no doubt been influenced by both Turkish nationalism and Ottoman oppression of some Alevi groups. Basically, the argument goes that since Alevis had been so repressed and persecuted by the Sunnis during Ottoman times, they tried to find ways to distance themselves from them, so they abandoned Shariah.

Instead of fasting during Ramadan, they have their own 12 day fast in the month of Muharram, and on the tenth day, Ashura, there is intense mourning and grief for Imam Hussein (as), but no matam or any kind of physical self-abuse.

Alevi-Bektashi ceremonies aren't held in mosques; certain Alevis give the radical view that since Imam Ali (as) was martyred in a mosque, they worship in places called cem evis in order to distance themselves from Ali's (as) murderers and from Sunni Islam itself. The cem ceremonies are mixed gender (but women are supposed to be veiled), and the ceremony is led by a cem dede or ocakzade (a hereditary title - Alevis claim that in order to be one of these, one must be a descendet of the Prophet (pbuh) through Fatima, in other words, a Seyyed, but there is no way of verifying this) while another person plays the saz (a Turkish musical instrument) and sing songs about the Prophet (pbuh), the Ahlul-Bayt (pbuh), and Alevi saints and mystics, like Haji Bektashi Wali and Pir Sultan. All this is done while the congregation engages in a Sufi-like crane dance.

Although I'm not too sure on this, they supposedly have special gatherings in the cem evi on Thursday nights before they have their own version of Friday prayers the next day. What's also interesting though is one of my cousins in Turkey mentioned to me that Alevis towards the end of their ceremony do prostrate towards Mecca and recite Surah al-Fatiha, although their prostration does not follow the same pattern as ordinary salat.

Now, the Jaffari Alevis completely reject the Bektashi practices and claim that they are false innovations which corrupted true Alevism, which in their minds, is Twelver Shiism. They claim that all Alevis were Twelver Shiites before being corrupted by outside practices. While this view sounds appealing, it is unlikely, since Shah Ismail, the founder of the Safavid dynasty and the man who converted all of Iran to Shiism, was an Alevi, and had very heterodox, Sufi tendences with his Shiite beliefs. The Iranians managed to learn Twelver Shiism from the scholars that Shah Ismail had invited over to Iran from neighboring countries. In addition, Alevis consider themselves descendants of the Qizilbash, the red-headed Turkmen Shia Sufi tribes who originally came from Central Asia, so mystical or even heterodox beliefs seem to have always been a part of Alevism.

That's basically Alevism in a nutshell. Let me say that my parents are of an Alevi ancestry, but I was always taught the five pillars of Islam and the importance of going to the masjid (even though my parents aren't very religious). However, they always instilled into me the idea that Ali (as) was usurped; they had been assimilated into Orthodox Sunni Islam thanks to the Turkish state, but they always clung to that notion. Most of my family members have intermarried, so I have a lot of Sunni relatives, and any in depth knowledge or practice of Alevism in my family was lost a long time ago (The exception is my great grandfather. He never rejected basic Islamic practices, such as salat or Ramadan fasting, or Hajj, but he did play saz at cem ceremonies, according to my mother. Supposedly, he's the one who told my mother all about Imam Ali (as), the Ahlul-Bayt (as), the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as) at Karbala, and Aisha's evil deeds). These small little remnants are what sparked my interest into researching Shiism.

The atheist/secular Alevis are definitely kafir, but the Bektashi group in my eyes are still Muslims, although they have deviated. With regard to Turkey and its Alevi problem, this could be best solved through education. In their religion classes, Turkish children should be taught and introduced to all Islamic schools of thought and the several subsections within them, not just the Hanafi madhab. This way, they can gain a much more comprehensive view of the deen (separating what's wrong with certain beliefs from what's right), and find the path of Islam on their own (with proper guidance from the teachers of course).

Edited March 18, 2008 by bkt900

[UndercoverBrother]

I think the phenomenon the brother is reffering to is Pakistani Shia slowly turning into Ghulat (extremists) and creating their own Ghulat beliefs and practices seperate from the ones in Syria and turkey. Go to certain Darbars in Pakistan and you see flags with NOUZOBILLA Ali Allah Nouzobillah written on them and the people have many devious beleifs but they are from amongst the mainstream shia and mix with them in Majlis e.t.c

[syeda_zaidi]

wow brother bkt900... what a detailed explanation. Thanks a lot brother!

[Smarter Planet]

Anyone care to say more about Syrian Ruling family Al Asad ? They favor shias alot ........!!!!

[Jaf]

bro. bkt900 thanks a lot for detailed information it's really very helpful.

i used to think alevi and alawi are the same and now it's clear.

I think the phenomenon the brother is reffering to is Pakistani Shia slowly turning into Ghulat (extremists) and creating their own Ghulat beliefs and practices seperate from the ones in Syria and turkey. Go to certain Darbars in Pakistan and you see flags with NOUZOBILLA Ali Allah Nouzobillah written on them and the people have many devious beleifs but they are from amongst the mainstream shia and mix with them in Majlis e.t.c

No, brother you're wrong i was not referring them to anyone here in Pakistan, i know they don't exist here, what you referred to could be correct, but that was not reason for posting it here.

I just wanted to know those people just for general information of mine and other who might did not know about them. i only got curious about as i watched News report on BBC yesterday about them as they wanted recognition from Turkey Govt for their religion as previously i had believed they are very very minor population but seems like they are in good numbers in Turkey.

[Nazireh7]

Anyone care to say more about Syrian Ruling family Al Asad ? They favor shias alot ........!!!!

(salam)

I believe there was an instance when Hafez Asad asked Ayatollah Seestani to rule in favor of Alawis being Twelvers...can anyone confirm this?

[Thaqalain]

(salam)

I believe there was an instance when Hafez Asad asked Ayatollah Seestani to rule in favor of Alawis being Twelvers...can anyone confirm this?

Never ever , if he , He will not be Ayatollah.

Allawis are allowed to do party and drink inside modques. They have several things deduced from Christianity, too.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Thaqalain

[fatih0127]

Bro. Bkt 900 has given good information about Alevis in Turkey. Alevi means a person who loves Imam Ali. In Turkey:

Some Alevis are mixed Islam with Central Assian Shamanism. Some Alevis are real shias they are following the path of Ahlul Bayt, they believe in 12 Imams, they are even following a Marja. They define thmemselves as Alevis because they want to teach the first group how to love Imam Ali. They want them convert to real Islam.

[fatih0127]

The Alevis are a confusing group, to say the least.

The literal meaning of the Turkish term "Alevi" simply means follower of Ali (as). Now, the Alevis themselves are divided; from what I've read, there is no monolithic Alevi ideology. Some Alevis are atheist secular humanists and reject Islam completely; they don't see Alevism as a religion but rather as an outlook on life (why they still refer to themselves as Alevi is beyond me).

I think most of them are communists and socialists and they respect Imam Ali as a leader of the plebs against ummayads governing elite. They want to gain liking of Alevis.

[Cyan_Garamond]

It is highly unlikely that any of these Alevi groups, besides the Jaffaris, had access to any Shiite hadith collections or even Nahjul Balagha, as Alevism for the most part has been transmitted orally from generation to generation.

What do you think, they are robots? They can quote Biharul Anwar and Nahjul Balagha like any other Shiite. Go to www.bektashi.net and you will see quotations from Bihar. However, you're right that their teachings are through Haji Bektash Veli. They are a spiritual Shiite order.

(salam)

I believe there was an instance when Hafez Asad asked Ayatollah Seestani to rule in favor of Alawis being Twelvers...can anyone confirm this?

I think it was from Sayyid Musa Sader and Sayyid Hassan Shirazi, both of Lebanon, who did infact confirm them to be 12er Shiites.

[jund_el_Mahdi]

(wasalam)

From what I know, there is a large Alawi population in Syria, including Bashar Al-Asad and his family being Alawis, which only consider Imam Ali (as) as the first and last Imam....

[hamoudi1188]

(wasalam)

From what I know, there is a large Alawi population in Syria, including Bashar Al-Asad and his family being Alawis, which only consider Imam Ali (as) as the first and last Imam....

There's actually one Alawite belief and it believes in Imam Ali (as) as being the first Imam. We follow the same lineage as the twelvers, there is no difference. The term Alawite is designated for this community in Syria because of it's high respect for Imam Ali (as). It's funny how other Shiites love to criticize us after all the oppression we've faced at the hands of tyrants like the Crusaders and the Ottomans, even though we've never submitted to anyone. Our belief in Ahlul Bayt will always remain firm. We had a site that was up last year, but it was deleted. It showed how are beliefs are the exact same as Twelver Shiites. The reason why we keep to ourselves is because Syedna Ali (as) did the same. He prayed at home, except on Fridays. We believe that worship is between the individual and Allah (swt). That is the main difference.

[koroigetsuga]

^^I just have a question brother

What is the point of calling yourself alawite if you are shia. Don't get me wrong, this is a sincere question. Labels create barriers and we are already a divided ummah as it is.

[ProudMuslim]

The Alevis are a confusing group, to say the least.

First, let me start off by saying that they have NOTHING to do with Alawis; the only similarities between them are their Shiite influences. Many people, including Prof. Hamid Algar at Berkeley, have made the fatal mistake of grouping them together in the same group. They are two, totally separate sects.

The literal meaning of the Turkish term "Alevi" simply means follower of Ali (as). Now, the Alevis themselves are divided; from what I've read, there is no monolithic Alevi ideology. Some Alevis are atheist secular humanists and reject Islam completely; they don't see Alevism as a religion but rather as an outlook on life (why they still refer to themselves as Alevi is beyond me). Other secular Alevis say that God is Man and Man is God. Then we have the Alevi-Bektashis who can best be described as Shiite Sufis with too much of an emphasis on tariqat and tasawuf rather than Sharia. We also have Alevis who are basically Sunnis, with a sympathy towards Ali (as), and then we got Alevis who are pure Jaffari school Orthodox Twelver Shias.

However, I've never heard any Alevi group ever deify Ali (as) in any way. Some groups tend to exaggerate their love for Ali, putting him on the same level of the Prophet (pbuh), but there's no deification whatsoever, as far as I know.

The lack of unity among Alevis is that it is first and foremost a folk religion mixed in with various

Islamic, Sufi, and Shiite elements. Different Alevi villages in Turkey will have different beliefs and practices from each other.

The most common group are the Alevi-Bektashis (and even they have certain divisions), and they are the ones trying to push for the establishment of a single version of Alevism to be taught along with Sunni Islam. This is ticking off the Jaffari Alevis, as they themselves want recognition from the Turkish state as well.

The Alevi-Bektashis basically fused Alevism with the beliefs of the Bektashi Sufi order, due to the great similarities in their philosophies. Here are their beliefs as follows:

They do not accept the authority of the first three caliphs and believe that Ali (as) was usurped. They also curse Yazid and Muwayiah for their vile actions against Imam Hussein (as), Imam Hassan (as), and the Ahlul-Bayt (as). They accept the authority of the 12 Imams (as), and they believe in the return of the 12th Imam, Imam Mahdi (as). Their shahadah is Ash-hadu ala ilaha illallah wash-hadu anna Muhammadar rasulallah wash-hadu anna Aliyyun waliyullah, no different than Orthodox Shiism.

The problem is that besides the Quran, the Alevis really have no other collection of writings or sayings other than the Buyruks, which have compilations of the sayings of Imam Jaffar al-Sadiq (as), Shah Ismail, Pir Sultan Abdal, Haji Bektashi Wali, and stories of other great mystics and saints). Most of their beliefs, however, derive from the teachings of Hajji Bektashi Wali, Yunus Emre (his poetry is a huge influence), and Pir Sultan Abdal. It is highly unlikely that any of these Alevi groups, besides the Jaffaris, had access to any Shiite hadith collections or even Nahjul Balagha, as Alevism for the most part has been transmitted orally from generation to generation. However, one saying that Alevis use frequently to prove the worth of Ali is the following: Muhammed ilim şehridir, Ali kapısıdır, which translates to "Muhammad is the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its door" - this undoubtedly has its origins in the hadith (shared by both Sunnis and Shiites) where the Prophet (pbuh) says that he is the city of knowledge, and Ali (as) is its door. Alevis also use the Turkish equivalent of the saying "Every day is Ashura, every land is Karbala".

The Alevi-Bektashis also believe in the following: The Alevi path has four doors or stages:

1. Seriat/Shariah ("religious law")

2. Tarikat/Tariqat ("spiritual brotherhood")

3. Marifat ("spiritual knowledge")

4. Hakikat ("Reality" or "Truth", i.e., God)

Now, here's where the weirdness comes in. The Alevi-Bektashi sskip the first door and go straight into tariqat. They give no importance to salat, fasting during Ramadan, going on Hajj, etc. Some Alevis have gone as far to say that those were all just Arab practices that have nothing to do with Islam (arigstafullah), that all the Sunni hadith books are full of fabrications, and that Sunnism is nothing more than Arab cultural imperialism. They see their way as a pure, Turkish interpretation of Islam. This view, however, is not shared by all Alevis, and it has no doubt been influenced by both Turkish nationalism and Ottoman oppression of some Alevi groups. Basically, the argument goes that since Alevis had been so repressed and persecuted by the Sunnis during Ottoman times, they tried to find ways to distance themselves from them, so they abandoned Shariah.

Instead of fasting during Ramadan, they have their own 12 day fast in the month of Muharram, and on the tenth day, Ashura, there is intense mourning and grief for Imam Hussein (as), but no matam or any kind of physical self-abuse.

Alevi-Bektashi ceremonies aren't held in mosques; certain Alevis give the radical view that since Imam Ali (as) was martyred in a mosque, they worship in places called cem evis in order to distance themselves from Ali's (as) murderers and from Sunni Islam itself. The cem ceremonies are mixed gender (but women are supposed to be veiled), and the ceremony is led by a cem dede or ocakzade (a hereditary title - Alevis claim that in order to be one of these, one must be a descendet of the Prophet (pbuh) through Fatima, in other words, a Seyyed, but there is no way of verifying this) while another person plays the saz (a Turkish musical instrument) and sing songs about the Prophet (pbuh), the Ahlul-Bayt (pbuh), and Alevi saints and mystics, like Haji Bektashi Wali and Pir Sultan. All this is done while the congregation engages in a Sufi-like crane dance.

Although I'm not too sure on this, they supposedly have special gatherings in the cem evi on Thursday nights before they have their own version of Friday prayers the next day. What's also interesting though is one of my cousins in Turkey mentioned to me that Alevis towards the end of their ceremony do prostrate towards Mecca and recite Surah al-Fatiha, although their prostration does not follow the same pattern as ordinary salat.

Now, the Jaffari Alevis completely reject the Bektashi practices and claim that they are false innovations which corrupted true Alevism, which in their minds, is Twelver Shiism. They claim that all Alevis were Twelver Shiites before being corrupted by outside practices. While this view sounds appealing, it is unlikely, since Shah Ismail, the founder of the Safavid dynasty and the man who converted all of Iran to Shiism, was an Alevi, and had very heterodox, Sufi tendences with his Shiite beliefs. The Iranians managed to learn Twelver Shiism from the scholars that Shah Ismail had invited over to Iran from neighboring countries. In addition, Alevis consider themselves descendants of the Qizilbash, the red-headed Turkmen Shia Sufi tribes who originally came from Central Asia, so mystical or even heterodox beliefs seem to have always been a part of Alevism.

That's basically Alevism in a nutshell. Let me say that my parents are of an Alevi ancestry, but I was always taught the five pillars of Islam and the importance of going to the masjid (even though my parents aren't very religious). However, they always instilled into me the idea that Ali (as) was usurped; they had been assimilated into Orthodox Sunni Islam thanks to the Turkish state, but they always clung to that notion. Most of my family members have intermarried, so I have a lot of Sunni relatives, and any in depth knowledge or practice of Alevism in my family was lost a long time ago (The exception is my great grandfather. He never rejected basic Islamic practices, such as salat or Ramadan fasting, or Hajj, but he did play saz at cem ceremonies, according to my mother. Supposedly, he's the one who told my mother all about Imam Ali (as), the Ahlul-Bayt (as), the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as) at Karbala, and Aisha's evil deeds). These small little remnants are what sparked my interest into researching Shiism.

The atheist/secular Alevis are definitely kafir, but the Bektashi group in my eyes are still Muslims, although they have deviated. With regard to Turkey and its Alevi problem, this could be best solved through education. In their religion classes, Turkish children should be taught and introduced to all Islamic schools of thought and the several subsections within them, not just the Hanafi madhab. This way, they can gain a much more comprehensive view of the deen (separating what's wrong with certain beliefs from what's right), and find the path of Islam on their own (with proper guidance from the teachers of course).

Very detailed explanation, I agree with all your points. Bektashi's are also one of the most hated religious minorities in Turkey. They are suppressed by the Sunni majority but they could still be considered Muslim. However, the Bektashi in Albania are without a doubt kafir's they have deviated even further from original Bektashism.

[hamoudi1188]

^^I just have a question brother

What is the point of calling yourself alawite if you are shia. Don't get me wrong, this is a sincere question. Labels create barriers and we are already a divided ummah as it is.

I didn't get you wrong since I loved your statement. It's people like you who would be able to make differences for Shias. I'm against the whole labelling each other like you said. In the end, we both have the same beliefs. Alawites are most likely the closest people to the Twelvers. Syed Mussa Sadr even issued that Alawites should be recognized as Twelver Shiites. He even got Alawis to follow Twelver jurisprudence in Syria. One of the sons of Assad openly accepted Twelver Islam and apparently a Twelver Sheikh lead the prayer at his funeral. If ppl are to ask me, I would gladly say I'm Shia. As for many other Alawis I know.

In answer to your question, for me the word Alawi is simply a label for Shias in Syria that took refuge in the mountains from all massacres they faced. We have differences but I can count them on my fingers. And they aren't even significant differences. If our differences are taboo for some Shia Twelvers, they should take into consideration the atrocities that we faced throughout the past.

The biggest difference I see is the secretive way we worship Allah. We only frequent Mosques on occasions because we believe Imam Ali (as) never made a show of his religious views and kept to himself. Thank you once again for your comment:)

[bektashi110]

"without a doubt kafir's"?????

Sorry to say, but you sound just like the obnoxious Wahhabi fanatics we Bektashis must deal with in the Balkans on a daily basis.

Present your justification for such an inflamatory accusation

[Yiligiz]

(bismillah)

(salam)

bektashi110, never mind him, i think he is a sunni.

I started a thread on this and is still present here in this forum, trying to highlight the difference between Alevis and Alawis. Even so, i dont hate the Alawi belief of ONE single imam since twelvers also believe that all twelve imams are of ONE nur.

[Bahadur Ali]

(salam)

Could people please keep to facts? It is really annoying when people with no clue about these traditions start giving their own internet fatwas.

1. Alawis and Alevis are separate groups.

Syrian Alawis are derived from Nusayrism. There are different groups and they have watered down their ghulluw beliefs.

A fatwa by Imam Musa al Sadr declares them our fellow Shi'a Muslims. He said: The Alawis are of the Shi'a and the Shi'a are of the Alawis.

Turkish Alevism goes back to Shah Ismail Safavi Khatai.

2. The Turkish Alevis are Ithna'shari in terms of theology the only difference with mainstream Ithna'sharis is their external aspect i.e. they have a different concept of shari'a. In fact they behave more like a Sufi order minus shari'a. There are again many branches among them . Modern developments have unfortunately brought about the secularist Alevi types. In any case some do go to Qom to study for a certain number of years.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[ShiaBrother1]

(bismillah)

(salam)

bektashi110, never mind him, i think he is a sunni.

I started a thread on this and is still present here in this forum, trying to highlight the difference between Alevis and Alawis. Even so, i dont hate the Alawi belief of ONE single imam since twelvers also believe that all twelve imams are of ONE nur.

But i thought the brother explained that Alawis believe in all 12 Imams (as)

[Yiligiz]

(salam)

Which brother are you talking about. I thought people here were referring to jund al mahdi's post and i thought it was the truth.

From what I know, there is a large Alawi population in Syria, including Bashar Al-Asad and his family being Alawis, which only consider Imam Ali as.gif as the first and last Imam....

[AbuHope]

I go to a Alevi turkish mosque. There are no other 'arabic' shia's around my area.. or at least not that i know off, they must be really good in taqqiyah. They are just normal shi'a and they have a turkish aalim who went to Najaf. But there is another so called 'mosque' where the place is filled with all these pictures of the Imams (as) and the men and women sit there drinking coffee and smoke all day.. so I don't really know how to name them.. the ones that I go to tell me that it doesn't care about what you call it.. at the end of the day it's either you're a mumin or not

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Waiz Sharaab Peene De Masjid Mein Ya Phir Aisi Jagah Bata Jaha Khuda Nahi

[Bahadur Ali]

(salam)

About the wine drinking among Alevis: among the traditional ones it has strict rules.

-limited quantity

-drunkenness is forbidden

-only drunk during the cem meeting

I know a few authentic alevis who have good akhlaq and a decent life style. I don't agree with the wine drinking but I just think stories about them shouldn't be exagerated.

[Daniyal]

SalaamuWalaykium

About the wine drinking among Alevis: among the traditional ones it has strict rules.

-limited quantity

-drunkenness is forbidden

-only drunk during the cem meeting

their allowed 2 drink?

[Jondab_Azdi]

Do the Alawis believe in the Prophet (p.)? On what issues do they agree and disagree with us? Do they believe in the godhood of Imam Ali (a.s.)…Therefore, is it permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a Alawi man? 2/16/2006 11:28:57 AM

A: Some of them declare that they are Muslim-Shiites, they believe in the Prophet (p.), and perform the prayer, but they disagree with us on some subdivisions of Islamic law, whereas, some of them do not believe in that. Therefore, the Muslim woman should study the doctrine of the man whom she wants to marry.

(sourse: bayynat.org.lb)

w/s

[Aisha-999]

My auncle married an allawi lady from syria and what ive seen from them to be honest i dont know what their faith is. They dont beleive women have souls therefore just dissapear and are not required to learn or practice their religion. They believe in reincarnation. they believe they become stars in the next life while christians and muslims are reincarnated as animals. they drink alchohol . they believe ali ra is god incarnate. they believe god is a trinity and the trinity includes Ali ra Muhamed saaw and salman the persian ra. Ali however is the creater part of the trinity. They believe the koran was corrupted. This list goes on and on. These are kaffirs of the worst type. mind u the shias never recognised them historically and wouldnt even let them attend shool at qom. but after 1979 politics played a big role. If a alawi tells u he doesnt believe Ali ra is god he will be lying to you. they believe this 100%.

however there is a small group of alawis who look more like the twelvers maybe totaling 15%. these i wont call them kaffirs cause i dont know much about them. This group prays etc

[yafatimaalzahra]

what i have heard is that yes there are different types of alawis and (correct me if wrong) that the way their name became "alawi" is because back in the old days whoever would say they were shia they would get killed. so these shia moved from the village to the mountains and changed their names to "alawi" because they were very fond of imam ali (as) and he was the imam of their time...

thats just what ive heard, i cant be sure because im not alawi and i cant just judge out of nowhere:)

[gilgamesh]

I go to a Alevi turkish mosque. There are no other 'arabic' shia's around my area.. or at least not that i know off, they must be really good in taqqiyah. They are just normal shi'a and they have a turkish aalim who went to Najaf. But there is another so called 'mosque' where the place is filled with all these pictures of the Imams (as) and the men and women sit there drinking coffee and smoke all day.. so I don't really know how to name them.. the ones that I go to tell me that it doesn't care about what you call it.. at the end of the day it's either you're a mumin or not

The Nusayris Beleive in All the 12 imams of ithna Ashari Creed,They Beleive in One Allah ,and a Hierarchy of muhammad,Ali and Salman in the Esoteric Order.They Largely since Recent Years have Adopted Twelver fiqh .

This is not Strange,since Salman Was the angel Gabriel(Jibril)(A.S) in Human Form According to Some Shia's (the Nizari Sect)and his Place in Sufism is Well-Known,He was Also of Ahl Ul-Bayt.

they are the followers of Abu Shu'ayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr a Pupil of both Sayyed Ali al-Hadi and Sayyed Hasan Al-Askari and he basically Proclaimed to Be the Bab to Hasan al-Askari and the Muhamamd bn Hassan but he Reejcted the Authority of the 4 Deputies .

Uthman ibn Sa'id al-Asadi,Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Uthman,Abul Qasim Husayn ibn Ruh al-Nawbakhti,Abul Qasim Husayn ibn Ruh al-Nawbakhti.

This si Not Straneg since their Were 20 SEef-Proclaimed deputies of the Muhamamd Ibn Hassan.

they Do Taqiyah Strongly,and theres a Big Similarity on Faith,As their Druze Brethren Regarding the Triad of Muhammad,Ali and Salman and the Order of Intellects for them only the Shaykh know the inner most Teachings of the Sect,While The druze only their Uqqal have the Sects Writings.

Both Dont Allow conversion and both Kill the Apostate .Both Exclude the one who Marries Outside of the Faith.

Aisha-999 Said :''''My auncle married an allawi lady from syria ''''So Your Uncle marrried a Pagan?How is that Possible?

Also they dont Marry Outside the Faith,except Facing Deep Consequences,As far to my Knowledge Even Takfir is Pronounced On Them.

Also The Alevi/Bekhtashi of turkey Are not the Same,But both Groups Beleive in 12 Imams and Exxegeratte their status,are Secret,See Sharia As a Batini Thing.

This doesnt Render them Kafir,Since They Accept Sharia,But just Differ in Interpretation.

Sawm is of the heart they say ''the more important fast is that of mind and heart, where one abstains from unworthy concerns and worldly thoughts, and can be broken by succumbing to the base ego, and its insatiable desires''''

or for Hajj its a ''''''journey to and discover an inner reality of life''''' So they Do not Reject sharia At All,the Batini School only Gives it a different Interpretation.

In The End,Twelvers,Akhbaris,Usulis,Alawi,alevi,Druze,Nizari Ismaili ,Bohra Ismaili Are all Part of the Jafari School of Thought and that Should Be Respected.

I guess nobody Read the ''ámman Message'''''''' ??????

[miklagard]

Arabic Alawis are different religion group. Alevi/Bektashi people are mostly in Anatolia (Turkish, Zaza and Kurdish) and Balkans (Albanians, Macedonians etc.).

 

Hadji Baktash is respected by Alevi people and Bektashi people, but there are differences between Baktashi and Alevi people as well.

 

I think this distinction became more during the Safavid-Ottoman war, Alevi people mostly were on Shah Ismail's side. Alevis do not cliam Ali is a god but Ali is a deep symbol for them, he is the right one but they suffered him, so that makes him special.

 

Alevism has many common  bleives with Shias, but they are also very different from Shias:

 

* Alevis do not for hadj to Macca, as Hajdi Baktash says: "Whatever you are looking for within yourself, not in Jarusalem, Macca or Hadj"

 

* Alevis do not do mosques, they have their own temples called "Cem", they have a kind of spitural dance called Semah which they claim as it is namaz as different from most of other Moslems.

 

* Instead of Quran, they mostly heal "Deyiş" during their worship, Deyiş is something like a folkloric-religious poems. They sing deyiş with baghlama.

 

* The most of Alevi communities claim that they should not separate men and women during worship.

 

* And Orthodox Alevism, devorcing is probited, stealing, commiting adultry, getting married with a non-alevi can make you "Düşkün" means nobody in the community would accept you.

[repenter-gone4awhile]

Alavi, at least in Iran is a common last name Sayyeds(of any branch) take to describe that they are in fact Sayyids. But the last name Alavi has nothing to do with the Alevi/Alawi thingy. 

 

PS: I just realized, the person above me revived a 5 year old thread............

[Saintly_Jinn23]

I think this distinction became more during the Safavid-Ottoman war, Alevi people mostly were on Shah Ismail's side.

 

Some of the Bektashi Order supported the Safavids or at least preferred to seek the protection of the Safavid Shahs. During the Ottoman-Safavid era, the Alevi-Bektashi split into two branches: A Sunni branch which courted the Ottoman Sultans and were associated with the Janissaries and a Shi'a branch or group of branches who supported the Safavids. More Sunnified Alevis just call themselves Alevis and in the Ottoman period the phrase "the Alevi path" was pretty much used as a synonym for Sufism since Ali (as) is seen in nearly all traditional schools of Sufism as the door to Muhammad's esoteric mysteries. So really, during the Ottoman period, the term "Alevi" was a very loose term. Those Alevis whom the Ottoman Empire saw as suspicious were those they considered "Qizilbash" and thus associated with the Safavids.

 

Alevis do not for hadj to Macca, as Hajdi Baktash says: "Whatever you are looking for within yourself, not in Jarusalem, Macca or Hadj"

 

While this is true, I think this is a position that developed over time and probably doesn't reflect Hajj Bektashi Veli's as much as people might think. The traditional accounts of Hajj Bektash Veli's life as told in his Vilayatname which has been preserved by the Bektashi monasteries in fact mentions his traveling to Mecca and visiting Mt. Arafat. Supposedly Hajj Bektash had the ability to teleport anywhere instantaneously, to turn into a dove or even appear in two places at once and on at least one occasion or more he visited Mecca or appeared to pilgrims there. The lack of Alevi concern for Mecca has a lot to do with the fact that pilgrimage has never been an option for many of them and also because the teachings of Hajj Bektash emphasize the inner pilgrimage, but this does not imply a lack of reverence for Mecca as a holy place among Bektashi or Alevi, as there are still members of these communities who do make these physical pilgrimages, as it is the birthplace of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and contains many holy places. Likewise, Bektashi and Alevi sometimes make pilgrimage to the shrines in Karbala and Najaf and tekkes/monasteries have existed in these places and I believe there may still be one Bektashi tekke in Karbala today.

 

* Alevis do not do mosques, they have their own temples called "Cem", they have a kind of spitural dance called Semah which they claim as it is namaz as different from most of other Moslems.

 

Yes and no. At least among Bektashi Order, the performance of namaz/salat according to Ja'fari law is practiced. Much of the lack of focus on traditional prayer comes from the secularization of Alevi communities in many parts of Turkey and Anatolia as well as separation between communities with different degrees of legal practice. There are also some modern Alevis who don't consider themselves to be Muslim. Among Bektashi and certain Qizilbash, both the sema and namaz are done, but namaz is more often seen as a private affair anyway whereas the sema is a more community affair. So it's unlikely you will ever see Alevis perform public prayer at a Cem house or a mosque, though some Alevis attend local mosques as a show of solidarity with non-Alevi Muslims.

 

* Instead of Quran, they mostly heal "Deyiş" during their worship, Deyiş is something like a folkloric-religious poems. They sing deyiş with baghlama.

 

This is also wrong. Most Alevi regard the Qur'an as their sacred book. The tales of past Alevi holy men and dervishes and the poems of famous Alevis only form a secondary more fluid canon. The Alevi and Bektashi Order also believe the Qur'an has an outer and inner meaning and tend to place greater emphasis on an inner and more philosophical understanding of the Qur'an. From the official website of the Bektashi:

 

The Bektashi revere the Qur’an, and the blessed words of the Prophet Muhammad. No rule of the order may deviate from the Sacred Book and Hadith al-Sharif. The veneration for the Prophet further extends to all members of his family, the Ahl al-Bayt. Expressions of love for his family occur in many Qur’anic verses: “Say (O Muhammad): ‘I do not ask for any reward except love of my family.’” (Sura 42:23) When the companions asked the Messenger of Allah who his family was, he replied: “They are Fatima, ‘Ali, Hasan and Husayn.”

And also “Allah’s wish is but to remove uncleanness from you, O people pf the House, and to cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.” (Sura 33:33)

 

http://bektashiorder.com/basic-principles

 

It is true that there are some Alevi who don't revere the Qur'an (such as those who think Alevism is a different religion from Islam) and there are those who are more secular and see Alevism as a cultural thing and thus do not study the Qur'an very much, only attending Cem for the Sema, but traditionally Alevism has always revered the Qur'an as their sacred book and this is upheld by many if not most of the major Alevi religious authorities within and outside the Bektashi Order today.