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FatimehJ

Sufism And Shia Islam

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Guest fatima2003

let me give to you some insight here that you may lack.......

you get up in the night for the night prayers.... you do not miss any pray..... when you pray concentrate ONLY on Allah swt and his majesty, always to remember that Allah swt is your sustainer and without Allah you could not even move your arms......read Adabus Salat... this is an excellent read....... do not think of anything in this dunya except that which youo have to...... this life is so temporary, it is nothing, it is nothing, it is only a test, do we deserve the reward of Allah swt or his punishment? that is exactly what this life is for, where do we belong in the afterlife......... after every pray you make tasbee3....... you do not have to do this in any excess but do as we were taught, allahu akbar 33 times elhumdolillah 33 times and subhannallah 34 times....... this is all and you say with total concentration.... you do not say these words as words but for what these words really mean...... allahu akbar! Allah is the GREATEST..... really think about what this means as you say... same goes for the rest,....... remember our wealth is not ours but to give to the poor for the sake of Allah swt....... recite quran at Isha and salat al-layl and Sobh.... as much as you wish or can... also think fo the meaning of what it is you are reciting and how these words apply to your life and you as an individual......... read tafseer and ahadeeth and actually learn your deen........ if yiu like you may read my commentary on al-hadith al-qudsi i will forward to you all if you like....... these hadith are so important to think about how they relate to our lives.........

and last but not least, live every single day as if it were yoiur last, like on this day will be your day of judgement and at some point in this day you will be standing before Allah swt and accounting for all you have done!!!!!!!!!!!! if you do this you will not fail...........

may Allah swt guide you all and for you all I cry to Allah swt......

i am so sad and so cry now for you

if i feel this can you imagine what it is that Allah swt must be thinking?

oh and one more thing, very important.....

we worship Allah swt for no other reaosn but because Allah SWT IS THE ONLY ONE WORTHY OF WORSHIP!!!!!!!!!

as we are taught by Imam Ali (as)]

also quit doing what i call speed salah... it is not a race... it is not something you do to see how fast you can get it over with.... you will not get the reward of it if you do this thing..... slow down think about what it is you are doing.... take your time.... think of your self as if you were before Allah swt! if Allah swt were directly in the front of you would you say your salah in 2 minutes?

Edited by fatima2003

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Guest fatima2003

DonQ, what is the point of creating a new thread on this topic where you are asking anyone with opposing veiws to not comment?.

why do you not want anyone who disagrees with you to commment on your sufi thread....?

are you trying to hide the bad in the reliigon? do you not want others to know there are opposing veiws?

and why?

if your veiws were in accordance with islam no one would disagree.....

btw disagreement does not make us HATERS.... it makes us realists!!!!!!!!!

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Firstly brother, you seem to have a very angry 'tone' in your posts and I do not know why. Secondly you stated "However, you who profess "enlightenment", should know that there are certain stages that every one must pass through." I must insist here that I have NEVER professed that I have enlightenment. We are all on a path to find this, but I am nowhere near there and have never ever claimed to be. So please do not put words into my mouth. I was merely trying to answer your posts in the best way I know.
There is really no point in arguing on this level. I cannot explain spiritual enlightenment to you or list 'profound' points just for the sake of debating.

This quote of your's seems to imply otherwise. "You know spiritual enlightenment but cannot explain it".

But the most insulting part of all is the quote "you to your religion and me to mine". What on earth are you saying? Are you not a Moslem too? Are you not a Shia Moslem too? I know what I am. So surely you are not implying I am not a Moslem are you? That is I believe basically wrong according to Islam to accuse another believer like that.

I am a Moslem first. I also belong to the Shia path and the Naqshbandi tariqat. I DO NOT belong to a different religion.

Have you not read the Qur'an ? It was a quote from Surah Kafiroon, a surah which is often frequently read in Salatul Layl:

109:1 SAY: "O you who deny the truth!

109:2 "I do not worship that which you worship,

109:3 and neither do you worship that which I worship!

109:4 "And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped,

109:5 and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship.

109:6 Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine !"

Sorry sis, but retreating to Khanqah's (Monasteries), performing a type of ascetism that is not only not praiseworthy, but condemable in Islam, observing repugnant rituals, making pilgrimage to a Sufi Shaykh - No. These are most certainly not part of my religion.

Just re-read the hadeeth from the Imam Hadi [AS]. You are most certainly one of those who has been deceived by their asceticism.

Thanks for that Ali Askari. Up till now, I thought that the Naqshbandi group was one that had not such innovations like the other orders. Seems like I was wrong. They are all but mere innovations.

Alas..

Woe be upon those who have degraded Irfan and the status of the 'Arifs, to such repugnant rituals. Allamah Tabataba'i [QS] was right..

FatimehJ, is this the spiritual enlightenment you were talking about then ? The one you couldn't possibly tell us about ? The one you were ashamed of to say in public ?

I feel incredibly sorry for you sis, as a revert, if this has been your worship for so many years.. Wake Up !

Edited by The Persian Shah

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Bismillahi Irrahman Irrahiim

Allahumma sallialaa Muhammed wa Aaali Muhammed wa azjel farazjahum

Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatulahi wa barkatuh Dear Sister FatimahJ

Muslim duty toward other muslim is to "forbit what is wrong and caurage what is right". If you want to ask any questions about spirituality and getting close to Allah, please feel free to ask. We can share our own spiritual travelling experienses or we can give you books to read from other peoples experienses, whit clear terms, and rational proovs, like Allah wants. May Allah bless you and Guide you to path of Muhammed (pbuh) and Aali Muhammed (as), and make you humble servan of Imam of this time, al-mahdi (as), may Allah hasten his re-appareance.

Whit prayers

Fii iman Allah.

Edited by Ali Askari

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let me give to you some insight here that you may lack.......

you get up in the night for the night prayers.... you do not miss any pray..... when you pray concentrate ONLY on Allah swt and his majesty, always to remember that Allah swt is your sustainer and without Allah you could not even move your arms......read Adabus Salat... this is an excellent read....... do not think of anything in this dunya except that which youo have to...... this life is so temporary, it is nothing, it is nothing, it is only a test, do we deserve the reward of Allah swt or his punishment? that is exactly what this life is for, where do we belong in the afterlife......... after every pray you make tasbee3....... you do not have to do this in any excess but do as we were taught, allahu akbar 33 times elhumdolillah 33 times and subhannallah 34 times....... this is all and you say with total concentration.... you do not say these words as words but for what these words really mean...... allahu akbar! Allah is the GREATEST..... really think about what this means as you say... same goes for the rest,....... remember our wealth is not ours but to give to the poor for the sake of Allah swt....... recite quran at Isha and salat al-layl and Sobh.... as much as you wish or can... also think fo the meaning of what it is you are reciting and how these words apply to your life and you as an individual......... read tafseer and ahadeeth and actually learn your deen........ if yiu like you may read my commentary on al-hadith al-qudsi i will forward to you all if you like....... these hadith are so important to think about how they relate to our lives.........

and last but not least, live every single day as if it were yoiur last, like on this day will be your day of judgement and at some point in this day you will be standing before Allah swt and accounting for all you have done!!!!!!!!!!!! if you do this you will not fail...........

may Allah swt guide you all and for you all I cry to Allah swt......

i am so sad and so cry now for you

if i feel this can you imagine what it is that Allah swt must be thinking?

oh and one more thing, very important.....

we worship Allah swt for no other reaosn but because Allah SWT IS THE ONLY ONE WORTHY OF WORSHIP!!!!!!!!!

as we are taught by Imam Ali (as)]

also quit doing what i call speed salah... it is not a race... it is not something you do to see how fast you can get it over with.... you will not get the reward of it if you do this thing..... slow down think about what it is you are doing.... take your time.... think of your self as if you were before Allah swt! if Allah swt were directly in the front of you would you say your salah in 2 minutes?

(salam)

Sister I think such postings make me happy I mix with people of the Naqshbandi tariqat that work on ridding their egos! Do you really think it anyone else's place to tell me how many times I may say Allah o akbar!!!! Subhanallah!

Of course I read quran - in Arabic - and I ponder on its meaning.

Of course I think only of Allah when I pray.

Why do you feel it necessary to even state this.

And I don't know who your post was aimed at in talking about speed salah and salah in 2 minutes! I cannot think it was me. I completely agree with you on this point. I see so many people in the mosques praying quickly. The Naqshbandi alhamdulillah take their salat seriously and pray with sincere intention, not rushing.

Please do not cry for me. I think you need to re-think WHY you are crying, but surely it cannot really be for me.

I thank you for your concern and the others on the forum to, but what I started as a genuine topic to try and learn people's viewpoints has turned into an excuse for forum members to display their egos and run other people down.

I will not argue on this level as it is too destructive and too negative for all concerned. I think I will pull out of this particular posting now before any more negativity is generated.

You may say what you will about me, pity me or insult me as you wish and whatever I say you will only believe what you want to believe. I am not an impressionable person. I have been a Moslem now through choice, not birth for 33 years. I have learnt about sunni Islam and Shia Islam and had the fortune to meet learned and spiritual people of both these groups, including Ayatollah Khomeini himself. I have ensured I learnt Arabic so I may read the Quran in its original and also studied works of Islamic jurisprudence and mystic works. I have travelled in search of this knowledge and as a result have found the path I feel is the right one for me. There are some Shia Moslems that I find do not portray Shia Islam in a good light and some Naqshbandis that do not portray the tariqat in a good light, but this does not deter me from my path.

All I would have expected from a forum is respect for my beliefs.

Also please can members not send private postings to me unless it is for genuine reasons not to continue insulting behaviour or continuing this debate. As I just mentioned it is becoming too negative. I cannot help you understand my position and I do not want to be dragged into a world of negativity and insults.

May Allah guide us all

Fatimeh

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Guest fatima2003

i was mearly reminding you (a quote unquote practicing shi3a) of the tasbee7 alzhara, the tasbee7 that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) taught to Fatima (as) that is to recite allahu akbar 34 times elhumdolillah 33 times and subhannallah 33 times after every salat.....

i hope this clears matters up....

i am sorry i was seeminly rude so in this edit i am posting my words in a much better manner.......

Edited by fatima2003

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Bismillahi Irrahman Irrahiim

Allahumma sallialaa Muhammed wa Aaali Muhammed wa azjel farazjahum

Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatulahi wa barkatuh Dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam

In Islam it is not allowed to follow people like Sheikh Nazim, that is because Allah is the Truth, and His Imaam, 10th Imaam Ali Hadi (as) has said it clearly. Like we have been brough to see, Sheikh Nazim is one of those whom worshipping is nothing but clapping hands. (Video from youtube).

Fii iman Allah.

Edited by Ali Askari

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Guest fatima2003

one more point I would like to make here.......

as we look at the people they are bowing and kissing the hands and paying homage to this shiekh i am reminded of this....... we are not to do good in this world for recognition of the people, but only for sake of Allah swt....... here is hadeeth on this matter.....

The narrator of the tradition, Jarrah al-Mada'ini, reports from al-Imam al-Sadiq (A) that he asked the Imam about the words of the Almighty that `whosoever is desirous of meeting his Creator, he should perform virtuous deeds and should not ascribe any partner to God in his worship,' seeking an explanation. Al-Imam al-Sadiq (A) said, `A person who performs good deeds but not for the sake of being blessed with the vision of his God, his acts are aimed at being considered as pious by the people, and he wishes that people should know about his deeds; such a person is counted among polytheists, who have ascribed partners to God.' The Imam (A) continued: `There is none in the world, who has concealed his good deeds and after passage of time God has not revealed them. And there is none in the world who could conceal his wicked deeds for ever, for they were exposed by God before he passed away from the world.' [3]

This is in the chapter on Riya in Forty Hadeeth by Imam Khomeni.....

it can be found at this link...... www.al-islam.org/fortyhadith/

i am thinking we can look at the videos and then look at this hadeeth and know what Allah might be thinking about this man......

Edited by fatima2003

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(salam)

Sister I think such postings make me happy I mix with people of the Naqshbandi tariqat that work on ridding their egos! Do you really think it anyone else's place to tell me how many times I may say Allah o akbar!!!! Subhanallah!

Of course I read quran - in Arabic - and I ponder on its meaning.

Of course I think only of Allah when I pray.....

salaam

Sis Fatimeh

I was A Sunni and was a follower of Tariqat Ahmadiyah Idrisiyyah. I embraced Shiism in 1991.

In my experience, Sufis, eventhough they are (most of them) not against Ahlul Bayt (as), and show much love towards Ahlul Bayt (as), what most important is that most of their teachings are different from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (as). Whereas we are obliged to follow only to Thaqalayn, and as being guaranteed wouldnt go astray by clinging to them. Ive found thus adhering to Sufism is problematic and therefore decided to renounce it.

Ive seen many miracles perform by sufis in my place, and may people have fell into this kind of arguments (using magic) but I knew, we cannot simply rely on the miracles; We have Thaqalayn, which has been magic enough for us, and serve as the greatest and ultimate proof for the truth.

Sis Fatimeh,

Aimmah have guided us toward Sirathal Mustaqim, therefore we must always be with them as it is cumpulsory for us to be with the truthful

"Oh you who believe, fear Allah and be with the Truthful" (Surat Al-Tawba, Ayah 119) and the truthful are none other then Rasulullah (s) and His Ahlul Bayt (as). and Shia scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets.

Saying of Imam Sadiq (a.s.):

"Our scholars are an obstacle for Shaitan to reach the weak and helpless Shias. Know that whoever rises from our Shias for this is better than a Mujahid who fights in difficult conditions against the enemies. A Mujahid (only) protects the physical boundaries of people but they (scholars) protect the religion."

There are a number of documented cases of Shi'ahs who lived far from Medina asking the Imam of the time to appoint someone in their locality to adjudicate between them in religious problems. Zakariyyah ibn Adam al-Qummi and Yunus bin `Abduí r-Rahman, for example, were named by Imam `Ali ar-Ridha' to solve disputes in their own districts. In a famous hadith, `Umar ibn Hanzalah asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, peace be upon him, about the legality of two Shi'ahs seeking a verdict from an illegitimate ruler in a dispute over a debt or a legacy. The Imam's answer was that it was absolutely forbidden to do so. Then Ibn Hanzalah asked what the two should do, and the Imam replied: "They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism."

Imam Ja'far Sadiq in the matter of court decision recommends the people to refer to the jurists and in the end of the narration says, "Anyone who refuses to accept the decision and decrees of the jurists (fuqaha) is like the one, who has rejected us, and whoever rejects us is like the one, who professes polytheism".(al-Kafi, chapter: ikhtalaf al-hadith)

Sis Fatimeh,

the Imam Mahdi as believes by Shaykh Nazim is all different from Imam al-Mahdi a.s mentioned in Ahlul Bayt's traditions. You can check it out here:

http://www.sheiknazim2.com/haqiqat.html

http://www.sheiknazim2.com/sahibuzamaan.html

I believe that even you yourself learn and realise how little are Ahlul Bayt's traditions and teachings around Tareqat Naqshbaniyyah. is this as a sign of following Ahlul Bayt (as) or is this a sign of keeping self away from Them (as)? Why do we need someone other than Aimmah a.s? why do we go different ways when Allah The Merciful has Shown us the right Path? If we said that we only find peace or it's complimentary outside from Ahlul Bayt's path, does that mean that we are saying that this religion is imperfect? I believe none of us, not me and you sis have ever have this slight of idea.

"Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." (Az-Zumaar 18)

Sis Fatimeh,

please consider this hadith from al-Qaim Aaali Muhammad (s):

Imam Mahdi (ajf) who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub: "As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."

last but not least, If we said that we are the follower of Ahlul Bayt (as), then we should adhere to only them, take their hadiths and follow their footsteps. They have guided us to whom we should refer to, and leave us with no any excuse in the court of Allah SWT.

“If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of (Allah) Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one, to be an intimate companion to him. Such (evil ones) really hinder them from the Path, but they think that they are being guided aright! At length, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says (to his evil companion): "Would that between me and thee were the distance of East and West!" Ah! evil is the companion (indeed)!

(az-Zukhruuf 36-39)

Sorry to take your time with this lengthy post.

may Allah be with you Sis Fatimeh

khuda hafez

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the Imam Mahdi as believes by Shaykh Nazim is all different from Imam al-Mahdi a.s mentioned in Ahlul Bayt's traditions. You can check it out here:

http://www.sheiknazim2.com/haqiqat.html

http://www.sheiknazim2.com/sahibuzamaan.html

From the second link:

When he was about fifteen years of age he began to be noticed by people because

his growth was miraculous. By the Prophet Muhammmed (sal) order, he was taken

away behind Mount Qaf. Five kinds of the Friends Of Allah took him there. Their

Imam is Shihabuddin. Then he was ordered to be in the Empty Quarters. That is

where Yemen and Hijaz join. It is a dead desert. No one can go there because there

are moving sands. If you put your foot there, you will fall down. Here there is a huge

cave. Inside that cave there is the Dome of Happiness which has been built by the

Angels. Seyyadina Muhammed Mahdi alai salam, peace be upon him, and ninety-nine

caliphs are there. He is protected and guarded by the jinn. If somebody comes, they

send out electricity and kill him and throw him away. No one can approach that cave.

They are waiting and expecting the Divine Command of Allah Almighty to appear. His

appearance should be soon, with the Will of Allah.

and

Once I was in Medina with Grandsheik for seclusion. He was ordered to be invited by

Mahdi alai salam. To travel from Medina to that place it takes about forty days. Yes

and it is an area with quicksand. You cannot step on it. You will be pulled down like

water. Grandsheik took me to that place but not by ordinary modes of transport but by

saying, “Close your eyes and open them again,” because at that time we were using

spiritual powers. In a second of time we were there and Mahdi alaihi salam opened his

arms to greet us and to stop us from coming inside. The entrance was forty meters

wide. His hands reached to his knees. That was the introduction, a physical meeting.

From that time on he ordered me to be there spiritually. My spirit never moves away

from that meeting. My spiritual body went into the cave but my physical body

returned. Now one of my spiritual bodies is with them. As much as it is necessary for

me to be there, the way he orders, my spiritual body will be there and one of my

spiritual bodies never moves away from there.

and

Seyyadina Mahdi alaihi salam’s first appearance was in Hijaz, in Mekka, on Mount

Arafat. That was around the year 1960. It was a private appearance, only for the

Saints. Twelve Thousand (12,000) Saints (Awliya) came and put their hands on his

hand and took the Oath of Allegiance (Bayyath) from him.

What is this guy talking about?? How could any Imami follow such a person?

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(salam)

I am a revert to Islam and have been for many many years now and have been chugging along quite nicely not really belonging to any group.

I initially converted with Sunni Moslems when very young, then spent the majority of my adult life amongst Shia Moslems and the last 7 or 8 years with Sunni Moslems again.

I feel like a child of a mixed race marriage!

I also felt over the years that everyone wanted a piece of me as a convert and loved to tell me the 'right way'.

Anyway 7 or 8 years ago I found a Sufi Tariqat - Naqshbandi - these people were extremely open minded and tolerant and it didn't seem to matter what group you belonged to. They are mostly Sunni, but I have met a few Shia in the tariqat. Amongst the Sunnis there are members of different Sunni groups. It is never an issue. They all share an aim to get closer to Allah and be good practising Moslems. Everything seemed simple when I joined the tariqat. I had a sheikh to turn to - to answer any doubts or questions I had (just like Shia Moslems seem to ask Ayatollahs).

I now consider myself mainly Shia in belief but belonging to this sufi tariqat which has honestly helped me become more spiritual.

So after finding this forum I was very happy too - a group of people from the school of thought I identify most with and discussing issues I want to discuss - BUT I found some discussions stating sufism isn't acceptable in Shia Islam and wanted to discuss this further.

Is this really true or just some hardliner view? Surely Hafez, Attar and Rumi and such are acceptable. Surely the desire to conquer your ego, live simply and worship Allah cannot be wrong?

I am bitterly disappointed if it is true that I cannot follow Shia Islam and remain part of my tariqat.

I would be really grateful for any insight from members on this issue.

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

no u cant sister and your anxiety is due to lack of belief in shia madhab and maybe because you talked to some shia innovators who claim to be shia and dont have a clue about shi'ism

sufism is a great enemy of shi'ism , to be a shia you need to reject any holiness attributed to anybody apart from

the fourteen masooms and also the prophets and messengers that came before

all these people sufis almost worship are mostly pious people but without any authority

you need to follow the way of Allah even if it means missing out on some social activities like these tariqah and their followers

i'm not saying leave your friends or disown them but try to read more about shi'ism and try to do your own research

dont just rely on people to do the research for you

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no u cant sister and your anxiety is due to lack of belief in shia madhab and maybe because you talked to some shia innovators who claim to be shia and dont have a clue about shi'ism

sufism is a great enemy of shi'ism , to be a shia you need to reject any holiness attributed to anybody apart from

the fourteen masooms and also the prophets and messengers that came before

all these people sufis almost worship are mostly pious people but without any authority

you need to follow the way of Allah even if it means missing out on some social activities like these tariqah and their followers

i'm not saying leave your friends or disown them but try to read more about shi'ism and try to do your own research

dont just rely on people to do the research for you

Salaam and thank you for your reply.

Since posting this I have actually sorted much of the dilemma. I have spoken to my marja for example as well as another marja and other learned men and women. I do not think it is correct to say a person cannot follow a sufi tariqat and be a practising shia as well. It is a matter of how you follow the tariqat and what you take on board.

I don't care so much about the social activities as the spiritual ones and I have been researching non-stop since my initial post, believe me!

But just to clarify, the tariqat I am talking about does not 'worship' any sheikh, he is merely a guide.

I would always turn to my marja first in matters of Islam, but the sheikh for certain spiritual practices.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to reply

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

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Salaam and thank you for your reply.

Since posting this I have actually sorted much of the dilemma. I have spoken to my marja for example as well as another marja and other learned men and women. I do not think it is correct to say a person cannot follow a sufi tariqat and be a practising shia as well. It is a matter of how you follow the tariqat and what you take on board.

I don't care so much about the social activities as the spiritual ones and I have been researching non-stop since my initial post, believe me!

But just to clarify, the tariqat I am talking about does not 'worship' any sheikh, he is merely a guide.

I would always turn to my marja first in matters of Islam, but the sheikh for certain spiritual practices.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to reply

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

and

salam

Dear sis fatimeh,

It is hard to understand that you have consider someone (al-Haqqani) who is actually in need of guidance is someone who is guiding...Someone that doesnt even know who is his Imam of the age - al-Mahdi (the Guided One) a.s, yet claim himself as the source of guidance, "what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"

"is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? " (Yunus 10:35]

Agha Pooya stated: "The authority to administer the affairs of mankind should be vested in a person who is divinely endowed to guide people to the truth, and not in a person who cannot distinguish between right and wrong or between good and evil"

When you are facing dilemma about this, Refer to Ulil Amr (at the moment are represented by ulamas of Ahlul Bayt a.s) and The Thaqalayn hadith provides us enough clue to whom we must cling to as our guidance....

last but not least, Do ask Imam Mahdi a.s to guide us.... Surely He (a.s) will never ever forsake us!

wassalaam

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Im a member ofthe naqshshbande order ive been with sheikh nazim and sheikh kabbani (his deputy) for 5 years and they have so much spiritual knowledge that every other sheikh ive heard with all respect puts me to sleep. Ive had all my questions answered and yes we dont worship him lol.

We are followers of the ahlu beyt and without any additons or subtractions we sufis are original shia. May Allah bless all the sufi orders around the World.

ya Muhamed ya Ali ya Fatima Ya Abu bakr ya Aisha

Edited by Aisha-999

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Im a member ofthe naqshshbande order ive been with sheikh nazim and sheikh kabbani (his deputy) for 5 years and they have so much spiritual knowledge that every other sheikh ive heard with all respect puts me to sleep. Ive had all my questions answered and yes we dont worship him lol.

We are followers of the ahlu beyt and without any additons or subtractions we sufis are original shia. May Allah bless all the sufi orders around the World.

ya Muhamed ya Ali ya Fatima Ya Abu bakr ya Aisha

If you are sunni, then it is up to you when you want to revere haqqani and his fellow. You can claim to be a follower of Ahlul Bayt, eventhough this is only a claim.

However, it is not for us the follower of Ahlul Bayt to follow other then people who have been recognized by Ahlul Bayt.

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Im a member ofthe naqshshbande order ive been with sheikh nazim and sheikh kabbani (his deputy) for 5 years and they have so much spiritual knowledge that every other sheikh ive heard with all respect puts me to sleep. Ive had all my questions answered and yes we dont worship him lol.

We are followers of the ahlu beyt and without any additons or subtractions we sufis are original shia. May Allah bless all the sufi orders around the World.

ya Muhamed ya Ali ya Fatima Ya Abu bakr ya Aisha

But, the ahlul bayt do not include Aisha, abu bakr, hafsa, salma, umar and uthman. I only respect them insofar as they deserve to be respected. they are not at the level of ahlul bayt (i.e. Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, Hassan and Hussein..ect...) you just cannot put Aisha and ABu bakr on the same level as ahlul bayt.

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Where did eThErEaL's post come from? Aisha-999 has not included them anywhere in the Ahl al-Bayt in her 4 line post. Don't people read English? Or do people see through some other eyes?
ya Muhamed ya Ali ya Fatima Ya Abu bakr ya Aisha

eThErEal didn't say she included them as part of the AhlulBayt [AS] either, he said you can't put them on the same level as the AhlulBayt [AS]; which was implied by her calling out to them in the aforementioned conitnous order on the same line.

In any case, "ya Ali.. ya Aisha" is a big oxymoron, and "ya Fatima Ya Abu bakr" is an even bigger one.

Edited by The Persian Shah

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(wasalam)

"With all due respect Sis, can I ask how you consider yourself a Shia ? Naqshbandi order follows the Hanafiyyah madhab (a Sunni Madhab). If you are Naqshbandi, you are Hanafiyyah; and if you are Hanafiyyah, you are Sunni; and if you are Sunni, you have not accepted the Wilayah of Imam Ali [AS]."

Naqshbandi consists predominantly of Sunni Hanafi but also welcomes Moslems from other groups too.

This was my fear - people finger pointing!!!!

Assalamu alaikum

Wise up and don't tell people your business. You go hang with Naqsbandis, what is the reason to tell everyone? I realize you did so on a message board, but in real life? Why invite people to get into your business?

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(salam)

I am a revert to Islam and have been for many many years now and have been chugging along quite nicely not really belonging to any group.

I initially converted with Sunni Moslems when very young, then spent the majority of my adult life amongst Shia Moslems and the last 7 or 8 years with Sunni Moslems again.

I feel like a child of a mixed race marriage!

I also felt over the years that everyone wanted a piece of me as a convert and loved to tell me the 'right way'.

Anyway 7 or 8 years ago I found a Sufi Tariqat - Naqshbandi - these people were extremely open minded and tolerant and it didn't seem to matter what group you belonged to. They are mostly Sunni, but I have met a few Shia in the tariqat. Amongst the Sunnis there are members of different Sunni groups. It is never an issue. They all share an aim to get closer to Allah and be good practising Moslems. Everything seemed simple when I joined the tariqat. I had a sheikh to turn to - to answer any doubts or questions I had (just like Shia Moslems seem to ask Ayatollahs).

I now consider myself mainly Shia in belief but belonging to this sufi tariqat which has honestly helped me become more spiritual.

So after finding this forum I was very happy too - a group of people from the school of thought I identify most with and discussing issues I want to discuss - BUT I found some discussions stating sufism isn't acceptable in Shia Islam and wanted to discuss this further.

Is this really true or just some hardliner view? Surely Hafez, Attar and Rumi and such are acceptable. Surely the desire to conquer your ego, live simply and worship Allah cannot be wrong?

I am bitterly disappointed if it is true that I cannot follow Shia Islam and remain part of my tariqat.

I would be really grateful for any insight from members on this issue.

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

My shayk is Shayk Nazim Al Haqqani.

as Salamu aliekum wa ramatuallah

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(salam)

thank you for your lengthy reply, but I am not querying whether 'to get too close to sufis or not'. My questioning at the Their 'cursing' is limited to cursing generally I would say by cursing all those who hurt or insult Ahl ul Bayt, but this is different that taking a stance on naming individuals. Who are we to do that?

assalamu alaikum

I think the fact the Imams themselves cursed certain individuals means we can also curse those same individuals.

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as-salamu 'alaykum,

The Naqshabandis are well aware of what you have written, and attribute Uwaysi connections to more than one link on their chain.

If we are going to use the historical method only to verify the authenticity of the Sufi orders' chains of transmission, then you must also apply this principle to Shi'ism. From this very limited secular perspective, it is also impossible for the 12th Imam to still be alive.

In fact, it is possible for the 12th Imam to be alive, and for Bistami to have been guided by Imam al-Sadiq in dreams and/or visions, like Uways was guided by the Prophet.

However, this obviously doesn't mean that only Uways inherited the Prophet's knowledge, or that only Bistami inherited Imam al-Sadiq's knowledge. The Prophet gave the bulk of his knowledge and authority to Imam Ali, just as most of Imam al-Sadiq's knowledge was given to Imam al-Kazim. But they obviously gave something to their other family members and companions as well, otherwise it seems as though you are stating that they only taught or influenced one person.

Further, it may be difficult to accept a Uwaysi connection between Imam al-Sadiq and Bistami, but it is just as difficult for most Sunnis to accept that the 12th Imam is alive. Each group needs to accept the possibility of Allah transmitting knowledge in esoteric ways, and treat the so-called other as we would want to be treated.

wa salam,

Nur Muhammad

assalamu alaikum

>>>>>>The Prophet gave the bulk of his knowledge and authority to Imam Ali, just as most of Imam al-Sadiq's knowledge was given to Imam al-Kazim.<<<<<<<

BULK????? So now the thinking is that not everything was passed down to the next Imam and someone got a little? Wouldn't it be better to follow at least the one who got "the bulk?" if that is how the thinking is going? According to shias, " The knowledge" was passed down from each Imam not through normal learning.

It comes dowm to accepting the Qutb for this time, Imam Mahdi, the son of Imam Hasan Askeri.(as) Anyone claiming to be a qutb etc other than Imam Mahdi would be a fraud. Believing something to be true doesn't make it true. I can go to Tiffany's and say I am the Dutchess of York and possibly could believe that, but it just wouldn't make it true.

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Are you kidding me? :!!!:

Ayatullah Khomeini and other do respect Ibn Arabi, so do I ?

Does that mean that I subscribe to the doctrine of Wahdatul-Wujood too? Don't be ignorant!

Secondly, one should differentiate between the concept of Fanaa and how it has been interpreted and relation with Wahdatul-Wujood,

both in the psuedo-physical and spiritual sense.

In the psuedo-physical:

What was Mansur al-Hallaj, a Wahaabi? Famous sufi personalites like Rumi and others always speak highly of him.

Yet, he used to go around saying "Ana'l-Haq" and that he was Allah (SWT) himself!!!

Some sufis even deem him as a martyr, so what can you say to that?

This also stems from Wahdatul-Wujood thinking, if you knew anything about Shi'i Ithna-Ashari theology and philosophy you would know that we do not believe that Allah (SWT) is part of His creation or that he permeates every atomic make-up of it, this is more along Isma'ili lines, we Ithna-Asharis believe that Allah (SWT) is beyond the simple/ common limits of even matter and anti-matter, we believe that Allah (SWT) is the originator of the concept of creation itself, so therefore how should we subscribe to such physical interpretations of fanaa?

Secondly, I was not speaking about all sufis and nowhere did I say all sufis,

I know that all sufis do not agree with the Hallajs' of this world, some was implied.

In spiritual:

We can say in very loose terms that some of Allah's (SWT) divine attributes are manifested in His creation, but even in this way Allah's (SWT) divine attributes do not resemble His creations' attributes, His divine attributes are not comparable because they are ineffable and we would surely fall severely short of describing and explaining them, but yet we can say that they are manifested because Allah (SWT) wishes us to fathom some of His attributes and impart to others those similar characteristics of justice, forgiveness, goodness etc.

That is why Allah (SWT) tells us to forgive if we ourselves wish to be forgiven. (By Him)

Another way of looking at it is that we can say that the Prophet (pbuh) was the "hand of Allah" or the "Eyes of Allah," this doesn't mean a physical fanaa, like Allah (SWT) possessing him (pbuh) and controlling him (pbuh) by remote control, on the contrary it is in most cases spiritual alignment, meaning that he would do works or see things that Allah (SWT) was ever-pleased with. This alignment of desires and wills is also fanaa, the eclipsing of one's own whims and desires by The Divine Will.

Yes, our scholars do have admiration for Ibn Arabi and many others too, so what?

In other areas of understanding they contemplated and were deep-thinking individuals,

they excelled in theorizing and offering explanation.

Was-Salaam

Assalamu alaikum

Our scholars beleive Ibn Arabi had some mistakes, and they believe the same with Rumi.

Waib ul Wajoud is necessary to existance.

Wahdat a Wajoud is Unity of Existance,sometimes translated as Unity of Being.

Wahdat ush Shuhud is Unity of Witnessing

Wahdat ul Mutlaq is Pantheism., Unity of Oneness.

I don't know why some here are saying Wahdat a Wajoud is panthesism. It isn't panthesism.

There is a very famious Hadith Qudsi from the Shia that says "I created so I would be known." All of creation is a witness to God, a pointer to God, an aya of God.

If I can clear out a little confusion here: ibn Arabian metaphysics sees God first as Essense and then as Divinity. Essense as the "ineffable" which nothing can describe and here we are refering to the Absolutely Absolute, and Divinity as the principle that we contemplate as the name(s) Allah, this is the relatively Absolute. Since everything is a manifestation of the Divinity, everything in a sense in the name of God, and this has also been said in Ay. Khomeini's tafsir of Surah Fatiha. You are right in saying that Allah's divine attributes can not be likened to those of his creation, but they are of it. I remember reading an example of the sun's reflection upon a mirror: it is not the sun in the mirror, but it is not other than it, in the sense that it is it. So, yes, God did wish for us to fathom "some" of his attributes, so that we may contemplate upon his perfection, but again, yes, there is also the Essense which is incomprehensible totally and completely as well. But you failed to distinguish God as Essense and God as Divinity, which leads to theological and philosophical problems eventually.

assalamu alaikum

Essense answers the question 'What is it." It has nothing to do with if it is real or not.

Sometimes one can start quite a fire reflecting the Sun with a mirror.

salaam, ive been having quite a debate about sufism on the understanding islam site, they keep telling me tere false and arnt muslims and giving me lots of evidence ect against them, they said i can kindley show them evidence for them but i dont have none! ive only been muslim for 2months! but me family have been for few years now. We go to zikir at the end of every month wiith a group of naqshbandi sufis who are all very nice. ive read pearls and corals too, but those on tat site have got me thinking is it right? on an islamway sister site they said if you follow sufism or associate with them you go to hell fire, i tried to post a topic on ther you see and they deleted it, you cant even disscuss it on there, they say there inovations are wrong. i was so sure i liked this group, well i still do, but there confusing me now, i find sufis the least extreme group ive come across, just cause what they do isnt in the hadeeth then there condemned, but i know some things they do is mentiond with prophet muhameds time, ie the whirling, he had dancers in front of him, them on that site say im wrong, but ive read it, and in muhammeds time men and women did mix in mosques, just the women prayed behind the men.

They all seem very highly scholers on understanding islam, and me with my little knowledge has no chance lol. they say there not monlithic? but they do just belive in Allah, i dont understand. :wacko: a source i read says over 70percent of islamic books are writen by sufis, so these who woint associate with them only read round 20percent.

assalamu alaikum

Men and women prayed in the same lines during the Prophet's time.

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